Most hated deck

Hi to everybody (and merry X-mas) Tournaments are tournaments (some people go to win only), but, during friendly play, what's the deck type you hate most ? I sometimes (lot of times) play with a intercept wall, and my friends simply throw anithing to me when we set plaiyng seats and they discover to be my predators. By my side I hate wheenie/Anarch Revolt/Delayng Tactics decks 'couse they shorten the games (and are so difficult to stop without 15+ Sudden Reversal). Generally speaking I hate decks that rely on a table reaction to deal with; I mean, Toreador with 3+ Aching Beauty on them are nightmares to stop just becouse there are (usually) not enough Sudden Reversals available, and cross table players are unwilling to "waste" theyr to stop a ally....the same for the wheenie above or for vote wheenies that can be stopped only by a four players coaliction ready to vote against them. Generally speaking, I like slow games, where strategies other than pure speed may develop freely...and play skill can match pure deckbuilding skill (maybe becouse I'm poor at this last one). We discussed about the best 5 vamps, the whorst cards, the stupid-est (?) special ability...end this 2000 with a all-around discussion forum. Thank you akaisuisei Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

akais...@my-deja.com wrote in message <91u0f0$un0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>... >Hi to everybody (and merry X-mas) > >Tournaments are tournaments (some people go to win only), but, during >friendly play, what's the deck type you hate most ? >I sometimes (lot of times) play with a intercept wall, and my friends >simply throw anithing to me when we set plaiyng seats and they discover >to be my predators. >By my side I hate wheenie/Anarch Revolt/Delayng Tactics decks 'couse >they shorten the games (and are so difficult to stop without 15+ Sudden >Reversal). I have to agree with this unless I'm playing a fast stealth bleed deck. Weenie/Anarch decks are the worst for totally messing up a game one way or another. >Generally speaking I hate decks that rely on a table reaction to deal >with; I mean, Toreador with 3+ Aching Beauty on them are nightmares to >stop just becouse there are (usually) not enough Sudden Reversals >available, and cross table players are unwilling to "waste" theyr to >stop a ally....the same for the wheenie above or for vote wheenies that >can be stopped only by a four players coaliction ready to vote against >them. I don't really mind stuff like that. They take so long to build. The only other decks that tend to drive me crazy are weenie fortitude/undead persistence, weenie cryptic mission, and ToGP/Hostile Takeover decks. Of course I also hate decks designed to survive (read as "the wall") rather then win a game... Steve Bucy "The only human commander to survive combat with the Minbari fleet is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives be somewhere else!" - Delenn Check out http://vtesinla.org/ for all V:TES information in Los Angeles area.

>during >friendly play, what's the deck type you hate most ? This question, by itself, was a revelation. In thinking over an answer, what kept popping up was one trick pony decks - decks that did one thing over and over again. It doesn't matter whether it is stealth bleed, Tradition Tap, rush Grapple, KRR(eally)Contested, or whatever. The revelation part is that these (one trick pony decks, though usually with bad cards or bad combos) are the sorts of experimental/concept decks I build just to have more decks on hand. I suppose it's time to build decks that do more things. Of course, it's also boring to play against more interesting decks if you play against them often enough. And, it can be painful to get a bad match up, though that's hardly under anyone's control.

akais...@my-deja.com wrote: > Tournaments are tournaments (some people go to win only), but, > during friendly play, what's the deck type you hate most? I'd have to say my least favorite deck to be on the business end of is a poorly built Ravnos "Lock Down" deck. Y'know the type...Pentex Subversion/Brainwash/Sensory Deprivation. When I say "poorly built," I mean that's all it does...it keeps the prey's vampires from doing anything. What it doesn't do is bleed for much, meaning the prey sits there twiddling his thumbs waiting for the Ravnos deck's predator to oust him. A well built "Lock Down" deck will capitalize on the weakness it has created by bleeding for 2 or 3 per minion fairly regularly. Which of course, results in a quicker VP for the Ravnos deck. Outside of that, I'd have to say non-innovative S&B decks and vote decks. They're fine if they do something unusual. OTOH, Rush combat decks tend to be pretty popular in my area, so it's not uncommon to see some pretty impressive battles between vampires. Any true fan of VTES loves to see a good fight. Regards, Noal McDonald Prince of Metro Detroit, MI -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <91uir9$d4m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > akais...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Tournaments are tournaments (some people go to win only), but, > > during friendly play, what's the deck type you hate most? > > I'd have to say my least favorite deck to be on the business end of is a > poorly built Ravnos "Lock Down" deck. Y'know the type...Pentex > Subversion/Brainwash/Sensory Deprivation. > > When I say "poorly built," I mean that's all it does...it keeps the > prey's vampires from doing anything. What it doesn't do is bleed for > much, meaning the prey sits there twiddling his thumbs waiting for the > Ravnos deck's predator to oust him. > I also hate to be the prey of a poorly built setite corruption deck. your predator takes over all/most of your vamps and then is ousted leaving you with 5 pool and no vamps. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <91u0f0$un0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, akais...@my-deja.com wrote: > Hi to everybody (and merry X-mas) Why Thanx! [ quoted text not captured ] Interesting point. I do have to say that there isn't a single deck that annoys me. Though there are playstyles that do, I'll get back to that later. All is fair love and JYHAD IMO. Of course there should be a kind of friendliness in friendly games, still the object of the game it to gather VP's, no matter what kind of environment. The only thing that it good about frienly games, is that you get your ass kicked, without it having repercussions unlike a tournament. Sure peope can play cheesy, degenerate, good and evil decks, but that is part of the game, and no deck is the end of it all. If it were, we'd all have stopped playing 2-3 years ago. And yes sometimes some player plays a hidiously effective deck, so what? Next game I'll modify my deck, or play another, and we'll see whether it is so good. That is the charm of the game IMO. There are however playstyles which I really hate. The "I-want-to-be-the-last-at-the-table" strategy, generally intercept decks without forward motion. The "I'll-keep-everyone-in-the-game" strategy. Even worse is the "I-need-kill-my-predator-first" srategy, and i can think of several others. Basically I dislike any strategy, player, that does not try to maximize his/her efforts to oust a prey. I have been prey to numerous -I sit and do nothing-decks/players, and swept tables. But having him as grand-predator will end your game before it started. Which leaves you with no fun at all. Which is a big part of the game for me. Biggest problem is the balance between competativeness and fun. While I can get my kicks from a *very* competative game, others cannot. This is reflected in the respective decks. But to come back to the question of hated decks, i think that these degenerate hated decks *should* be played, if only to make the metagame evolve/change, and explore the vast depths of this game. Just my babbling, -- A.A.H. Tim Eijpe V:EKN Prince of Utrecht The Netherlands E-mail: time...@hotmail.com PROPHECY OF GEHENNA: On The First Day Of Gehenna The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise Ancient-The Cainian Chronicles [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <91u5l...@enews1.newsguy.com>, "Steve Bucy" <tb...@lainet.com> wrote: > akais...@my-deja.com wrote in message <91u0f0$un0 [ quoted text not captured ] Exactly, you hit the point! We throw anything to him because he designes decks not to win the game, but to be the last player to be ousted, most of times without any VP (very annoying): he manages to stop his predator (who often reaches an astounding 0 VP at the end of the game) but he can't make any single VP because the deck is just too slow, defensive and is the predator anybody is happy to have: maybe 3 attempted bleed in a game! > > Steve Bucy > > "The only human commander to survive combat > with the Minbari fleet is behind me. You are in front of me. > If you value your lives be somewhere else!" - Delenn > > Check out http://vtesinla.org/ for all V:TES information in Los Angeles > area. > > [ quoted text not captured ]

A good question, this. I have seen one deck that I detested so much I very nearly went home in a sulk - Leandro comes out, Secure Havens, Anarch Revolt / Antideluvians and throws down the occasional Banishment, Protect Thine Own, and KRC. Then Arika comes out and starts to nail people with more votes. Then Anson comes out, generates more master phases, and more Anarch Revolts. And so on. Yuk. However, my "least favourite deck ever" has to be Andrew from Finchelys' "Skin Trap" deck. It sucks. Basically, it has about 60 damage prevention cards, and about 10 Traps. And that's all it does. It does really well, but really sucks. No finesse, no skill, and you risk getting RSI in your wrist throwing down all the damage prevention cards. Boooring. DH [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <91vghe$2it$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] You'll be pleased to know it got just 1 VP in a six player game last night in the hands of a newbie. It's prey was Andrew himself with his Highlander (0 VP). I was next along with a piece of shite being immediately dismantled (0 VP). Tom [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:25:10 GMT, Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com> wrote: >In article <91vghe$2it$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: >> However, my "least favourite deck ever" has to be Andrew from >> Finchelys' "Skin Trap" deck. It sucks. Basically, it has about 60 >> damage prevention cards, and about 10 Traps. And that's all it does. >> It does really well, but really sucks. No finesse, no skill, and you >> risk getting RSI in your wrist throwing down all the damage prevention >> cards. Boooring. Group is short on S:CE over there? =) That would really put a cramp in Trap's style. It should be worth noting that a more effective way to run such a deck is to wander over to the Ravnos side of the fence and play Traps with Carrion Crows, Song of Serenity, and Apparition. ANI/CHI is fairly readily available, and the 4-cardness of the combo means that you can have plenty of room for toys such as Tasha/JS/Laptops, Fata Morgana, Ignis Fatuus (lovingly referred to around here as "Ignorant Fatass", after Matt Bell's Ignorant Fatass deck that gave you Sabbat Threat counters and then reduced all your bleeds for 1 to 0 so you could never gain the Edge to burn the counters. Amusing as hell) Or you could eyeball Natalia and Sarisha, and go the Dominate-skill-card route with some Conditioning thrown in, and you have a lovely bruise-bleed. Add some Raven Spies, Cat's Guidance, and the Animalism bleed untap, and you are good to go against everything but Ridiculous Stealth Bleed (add Deflections) or Ridiculously Insane Combat (add Skin of Steel, they have Fortitude). Some of this depends on your metagame. =) -- Derek Goon-of-the-Month club member

In article <91vghe$2it$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > However, my "least favourite deck ever" has to be Andrew from > Finchelys' "Skin Trap" deck. It sucks. Basically, it has about 60 > damage prevention cards, and about 10 Traps. And that's all it does. > It does really well, but really sucks. No finesse, no skill, and you > risk getting RSI in your wrist throwing down all the damage prevention > cards. Boooring. I have recently tried out a rush version of this, as everyone around here in simply enthralled with Tzimisce/Lasombra/!Malk combat, and I thought it would be interesting to screw with the agg pokes/go to torpor strikes. Unless they can do massive agg damage, then it's mutual torpor time. I think that playing this deck properly requires quite a bit of skill (I sure haven't mastered it yet), but the only thing it really screws over is other combat decks. As someone (Fred? Derek?) commented, any S:CE will screw the deck, as will press to end or - hand damage cards. Xian -- But rain falls down and I feel cold A cold that sleeps within my heart It tears the earth and sun apart --New Order, "Shellshock" [ quoted text not captured ]

Tom Kassel <tka...@my-deja.com> wrote: > You'll be pleased to know it got just 1 VP in a six player game last > night in the hands of a newbie. It's prey was Andrew himself with his > Highlander (0 VP). 1 VP was a good performance, considering. The other 5 all went to Dave's new pride & joy - his Aching Beauty / Change of Target deck which I christened "Prick Teaser". Maybe I shouldn't have traded those Changes of Target to him. I wonder what new horror he will contrive with the Forms of Mist that he got too ... Andrew [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <9203u0$i3r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Andrew Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: > Changes of Target to him. I wonder what new horror he will contrive > with the Forms of Mist that he got too ... Nothing exciting, as long as he doesn't get blocked. :) Form of Mist is pretty darn useless if you're never in combat. Xian -- But rain falls down and I feel cold A cold that sleeps within my heart It tears the earth and sun apart --New Order, "Shellshock" [ quoted text not captured ]

>> I wonder what new horror he will contrive >> with the Forms of Mist that he got too ... > > Nothing exciting, as long as he doesn't get blocked. :) Y'know...people tend to want to block Gangrels with Tier of Souls and J.S.Simmons when they bleed with Force of Will. The whole bleed for 5 thing gets their attention. But that begs the question, if Force of Will gets blocked, can you use Form of Mist to restart the action or do you go to torpor right away? I recall LSJ addressing this a ways back, but I forget what he said. Regards, Noal -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > Y'know...people tend to want to block Gangrels with Tier of > Souls and J.S.Simmons when they bleed with Force of Will. The whole > bleed for 5 thing gets their attention. > > But that begs the question, if Force of Will gets blocked, can you use > Form of Mist to restart the action or do you go to torpor right away? Form of Mist (superior) continues the action - it doesn't restart the action. The damage from Force of Will occurs after the action is resolved, so Form of Mist can safely continue it. The "or combat" bit on Force of Will is just redundant with the "after the action" bit. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

(dave said:) > I have seen one deck that I detested so much I very nearly went home in > a sulk - Leandro comes out, Secure Havens, Anarch Revolt / > Antideluvians and throws down the occasional Banishment, Protect Thine > Own, and KRC. > Then Arika comes out and starts to nail people with more votes. > Then Anson comes out, generates more master phases, and more Anarch > Revolts. Surely it took a while to get primed...? You figure, play Tomb of Rameses III to get either of your IC members out faster -- but it'll still take about two turns, minimum. So, they play two Anarch Revolts or Antediluvian Awakenings in that time, and then play Secure Haven on the IC member the turn after they come out. Without Parthenon, this puts them a good piece of pool in the hole (no Minion Taps). Anyone playing with more reasonably-sized minions would have a few turns of free actions available. It does sound rather single-minded, though. I imagine it would frustrate one. -Matt

akais...@my-deja.com wrote: > Hi to everybody (and merry X-mas) Merry X-mas to you too. > Tournaments are tournaments (some people go to win only), but, during > friendly play, what's the deck type you hate most ? Any speed deck is generally not fun to play against, especially if you are their prey. You sign up for a couple hour game and you get ousted in the first 10 minutes and get to sit around waiting for the next game. If we're going for most annoying deck overall, tournament or not, I'd have to go with Rob Grau's all master card deck. This deck has taken more abuse from random table happenings (extra point from a KRC or Con Ag, Cross table deflection) than any other that I've seen. I personally hate the deck and try to destroy it any time I'm at a table with it so I might be a bit biased. Sorry Rob, but it is amazingly annoying. Jeff Dai

I'm interested how an all Masters deck might work. Would you or the hated deck's master care to elucidate me, and, incidentally, the rest of the newsgroup? "Men choose as their prophets those who tell them that their hopes are true." - Lord Dunsany Chick...@aol.com 3930 Cody Road Sherman Oaks, CA 91403 USA day 818-718-1221 eve 818-784-8476

Well, a friend of mine played a weenie presence with 10% Sudden Reversal, to stop Blood Dolls and Minion Taps. Also packs Anarch Revolt and some Parthenon. Of course bleed cards and S:CE. So I loose pool quickly and can't get any pool back. So after some games we beg him to stop playing it. Bobby_Doc [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 13:43:19 GMT, bobby_doc <bobb...@my-deja.com> wrote: >Well, >a friend of mine played a weenie presence with 10% Sudden Reversal, >to stop Blood Dolls and Minion Taps. >Also packs Anarch Revolt and some Parthenon. >Of course bleed cards and S:CE. > >So I loose pool quickly and can't get any pool back. >So after some games we beg him to stop playing it. if it's really 10% (ie one Sudden on you every turn), making a pool gain deck via Consanguineous Boon/Voter Captivation would be good. Include some Arson to toast his Parthenon or Disputed Territory to repo it, and plenty of Bewitching Oration to remove the Anarchs and pass your own votes. Get a couple medium PRE guys out first and it should dispose of THAT quite handily. Or a pool-gainer that gets out one big DOM vamp and does nothing but chuck around Governs at superior for awhile, and eventually gets an Info Highway out to make the transfers off more efficient. Sure, he can Sudden that, but it's not a major crisis if he does. And you can always Kine Dominance away his Parthenon with the DOM too. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:33:04 GMT, akais...@my-deja.com wrote: >Hi to everybody (and merry X-mas) ho ho ho. merry crimmus everyone. >Tournaments are tournaments (some people go to win only), but, during >friendly play, what's the deck type you hate most ? Hm. Anything that doesn't try to oust its prey. That always unbalances a table pretty badly and depending on where you're sitting in relation to the deck, can really mess things up. Badly made intercept decks qualify here; you have to intercept your PREY, and then you have to either kill his vampires or have some OTHER way of ousting him once you bugger up the workings of his deck. Legbiter will claim that Daffy doesn't try to oust its prey; these are lies, fabrications, and balderdash, as it has six Pulse of the Canaille in it and will usually get two out. =) (Although it is still verboten in Atlanta.) >By my side I hate wheenie/Anarch Revolt/Delayng Tactics decks 'couse >they shorten the games (and are so difficult to stop without 15+ Sudden >Reversal). short games are not ALWAYS bad; you can just play another. =) Last night we had four Big-Ass Vamp decks at a table (lowest cap seen: 7), and sure enough, someone dropped an Antediluvian Awakening on the first turn. :) Slowed things RIGHT down, especially when nobody drew up Minion Taps anytime soon. :) >Generally speaking I hate decks that rely on a table reaction to deal >with; I mean, Toreador with 3+ Aching Beauty on them are nightmares to >stop just becouse there are (usually) not enough Sudden Reversals >available, and cross table players are unwilling to "waste" theyr to >stop a ally....the same for the wheenie above or for vote wheenies that >can be stopped only by a four players coaliction ready to vote against >them. I dunno. We don't see a lot of Sudden Reversal around here; one in every deck usually, but they get saved for key moments as opposed to chucked out to stop an Aching Booty. We also rarely have a vote-weenie problem; I suppose it's due to the amount of intercept and/or combat available. Weenies can't seem to ever make themselves Princes because they can't get the Prince vote off; and the ones that DO finally manage to get beat up and munched. >Generally speaking, I like slow games, where strategies other than pure >speed may develop freely...and play skill can match pure deckbuilding >skill (maybe becouse I'm poor at this last one). play skill is *always* paramount over deckbuilding skill. sure, you can put together a nice bulletproof weenie bleed horde with the works and turn it loose with an average player at the wheel, but a STRONG player will be able to capitalize on the weaknesses and turn it around... usually by making the weenie bleed horde look like a target so the table jumps on him. [ quoted text not captured ]

[snip some good ideas how too counter that kind of deck] > -- Derek > Goon-of-the-Month club member Hello Derek! Well, of course I can make a deck that specializes in how to deal with just that deck. But if players build decks with that purpose, we are in trouble, IMHO. I personally think it's more fun to build decks with an own worked out strategy, not to counter some others strategy. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 14:51:58 GMT, bobby_doc <bobb...@my-deja.com> wrote: >[snip some good ideas how too counter that kind of deck] > >> -- Derek >> Goon-of-the-Month club member > >Hello Derek! >Well, of course I can make a deck that specializes in how to deal with >just that deck. But if players build decks with that purpose, we are in >trouble, IMHO. I personally think it's more fun to build decks with an >own worked out strategy, not to counter some others strategy. i agree. But I also strongly dislike using social pressure of the form "you can't play that deck anymore, it's no fun". I prefer to simply adjust the metagame to deal with it until the deck goes away. if you notice, both those decks aren't designed specifically to -counter- his strategy, they're designed to ignore it. A big DOM deck can do all KINDS of things besides just Govern backwards and gain pool; the idea is simply to use the Govern backwards concept to gain pool outside of your master phase. Same with a Bewitching/Cons. Boon/Voter Cap deck; it can do lots of things besides that, but it just uses a form of pool gain that isn't in your Master phase. It becomes a local playgroup metagame; especially if you have someone who likes to play the same deck over and over. We discovered that long ago in our group; if you brought the same deck too many times, someone would "accidentally" have something that contained the counter to that deck. If you had a monster Gangrel Fortitude prevent-and-bleed deck, you could expect that the Tremere with Guardian Angels would show up to the table eventually, shifting the game around. If Potence IG was the order of the day, obf/cel gun decks or Obedience would start to show up. If weenies come around too much, Atonement starts to make an appearance. (And Todd discovered that Drawing out the Beast fries the Assamites pretty good.) After awhile of this ever-shifting metagame, people began to rarely if ever play the same deck two weeks in a row, and never twice in one night. The game around here has slowly shifted to what the designers intended; you never DO know what your opponents have, so you will need to be prepared for everything. Sure, when I build a deck I keep it built for a month or so, and play it on a few occasions to test it out and tweak it some; and if it's especially fun I keep it built and bring it out every so often. But if I tried to play my flung-junk bleed deck every week, I would quickly find either an awful lot of Drawing out the Beast hitting the table, or a lot of pesky Ivory Bow/Flamethrower decks, or a lot of Celerity gun decks. As it stands now, you have NO idea what you'll run into when you come to our table; last night's first game looked like this (prey downwards): Me: AUS/obf intercept with Disguised .44s (swept) Pat: Shadow Twin/Fame with Embraces, Humanitas, and Catacombs Tatu: a Rob Treasure style (Tatu's words) toolbox voter/bloater Mike: this vote deck was brought to you by the letter "A" (alexandra, arika, anson) Not exactly your run of the mill setup. Someone bringing a "stock" deck into this environment is likely to have a rude surprise, too; especially if they sit down in the wrong place. [The deck you described above would've gone absolutely nowhere, by the way; I'd have intercepted and killed all the weenies, Pat would've Shadow Twinned them all into torpor and yo-yoed the Famous one, Mike would've bounced the bleeds, bloated like a pig, and voted down the Anarchs if he gave a damn (two Master actions means one Sudden Reversal doesn't cut it anymore), and Tatu's deck would probably have done the same since he was using a lot of 4th Tradition.] Sometimes it's necessary to specifically avoid a deck. But a lot of times, just building something that's reasonably functional on its own will do the trick. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <92cvmc$atc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, bobby_doc <bobb...@my-deja.com> wrote: > [snip some good ideas how too counter that kind of deck] > Well, of course I can make a deck that specializes in how to deal with > just that deck. Playing a bloat/vote deck isn't really a counter to the Anarch/bleed deck, as it'll do well against lots of other decks as well. I don't think it qualifies as a specific counter to that deck, it's more along the lines of a valid metagame choice if you're seeing a fair amount of speed-bleeders. > But if players build decks with that purpose, we are in > trouble, IMHO. I personally think it's more fun to build decks with an > own worked out strategy, not to counter some others strategy. Agreed. And I'll put words in Derek's mouth and say that he agrees too. :) Xian -- But rain falls down and I feel cold A cold that sleeps within my heart It tears the earth and sun apart --New Order, "Shellshock" [ quoted text not captured ]

>I'm interested how an all Masters deck might work. I had one years ago that didn't work all that well, though it was just kind of fun to play. Weenie Gangrel, Tremere to use both Eco Terrorists and Arcane Library (of which there were obviously multiple copies). Lots of Elysiums back when it was a great card. Just kind of sat around blood managing until it could bring up about 3 vamps at once and turned into a weenie "horde". The occasional Anarch Revolt kept the table under some pressure. I have no idea whether this bears any relation to the deck mentioned. And, I believe some signifigant changes would be made.

In message <92crlm$7te$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, bobby_doc <bobb...@my-deja.com> writes >a friend of mine played a weenie presence with 10% Sudden Reversal, >to stop Blood Dolls and Minion Taps. >Also packs Anarch Revolt and some Parthenon. >Of course bleed cards and S:CE. A combat deck should be taking out its minions very quickly. Immortal Grapple, Dog Pack, Telepathic Tracking, Thoughts Betrayed and so forth are all potential cards to get around S:CE. A vote deck can now have weenie defence in the form of Rabble Rouse (or whatever it's called, I don't have the new card lists yet). It can also Ancilla Empowerment, and get blood back with Voter Captivation, Tithings, Ancient Influence (which also hurts the weenie deck), Transfer of Power, Consanguineous Boon, Political Stranglehold and the like. throwing Kine Resources at the weenie deck, if necessary. It can Dramatic Upheaval/Kindred Restructure out of the way, along with getting rid of the Anarch Revolt or Disputing the Parthenon. A !Malk bleed deck can always back bleed to force the Presence deck off the table. A deck with AUS or dom/DOM can bounce the bleeds, and you often don't need to bounce that many to seriously bugger up both your predator (the presence deck) or your prey. The presence deck will either need some stealth (which is more difficult in a weenie pre deck), or taps. With minor intercept, you're likely to be able to do well. 2nd Tradition, Forced Awakening, Wake with Evening's Freshness, Eternal Vigilance, Metro Underground, Guardian Angel and Atonement are all candidates for defence against weenie hordes. If you're playing Tremere, you have Justine - but you have bigger problems to worry about if you're playing Tremere, like having a good deck to play. ;) -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D "What's wrong with wanting more? If you can fly -- then soar! With all there is, why settle for just a piece of sky?"

In article <20001227074157...@ng-fk1.aol.com>, chick...@aol.com (ChickLewis) wrote: > I'm interested how an all Masters deck might work. > Would you or the hated deck's master care to elucidate me, and, > incidentally, the rest of the newsgroup? Chick, Rob Grau posted the deck back in March of this year. It was posted here: http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=604938880 It took a majority of the victory points at every table it was at during the first 3 rounds of a tournament in Raleigh, North Carolina. The deck gains pool with Minion Taps & Golcondas, does damage to its prey (and the rest of the table) with Anarch Revolts and Antediluvian Awakenings. It will also help out its grand prey and others at the table from being ousted with the Life Boons. It is not a deck to be played by the weak of will, or those who MUST ACT. Two cards played per turn, three when lucky, and then sit around until it is your turn again. Knowing what to discard and will also take quite a while to get the hang of. I will also post the deck here, so that you needn't interrupt your reading to go to the deja link then come back. Here it is: Deck name: Methuselah Madness Created by: Rob Grau Crypt: (14 cards) [Min: 32, Max: 41, Avg: 8.86] 1 Angelica, The Canonicus (Lasombra, 10, ce DO ob OT PO, Cardinal) 7 Anson (Toreador, 8, au CE do PR, Prince) 1 Arika (Ventrue, 11, au ce DO FO OB PR, Inner Circle) 1 Cassandra, Magus Prime (Tremere, 10, AU ce DO pr TH, Primogen) 3 Ingrid Rossler (Gangrel, 9, AN do FO PT, Prince) 1 Ulugh Beg, The Watcher (Tremere, 10, AU ce DO fo po TH, Justicar) Library: (90 cards) Master (90) 17 Anarch Revolt 4 Antediluvian Awakening 2 Archon Investigation 1 Art Museum 6 Ascendance 4 Barrens, The 1 Blood Doll 3 Effective Management 3 Elder Library 1 Elysium: The Arboretum 3 Giant's Blood 8 Golconda: Inner Peace 3 Information Highway 6 Life Boon 2 Malkavian Dementia 13 Minion Tap 6 Parthenon, The 2 Protected Resources 5 Sudden Reversal Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://lasombra.tripod.com/news2000.htm http://legbiter.tripod.com http://vekn_clans.tripod.com [ quoted text not captured ]

> i agree. But I also strongly dislike using social pressure of the > form "you can't play that deck anymore, it's no fun". I prefer to > simply adjust the metagame to deal with it until the deck goes away. Actually we have a very relaxed playgroup. If a person have a deck that effects the play too much in a negative way, we stop using that deck and use in a tournament (if we think it's good :-), the friendly environment is more for testing decks not to win every time. And, *hrmmm*, actually he did it as a reaction to a very successful Lucian MinionTap/5:th deck I have used lately. [snip a lot of nice exemples I totally agree in.] [ quoted text not captured ]