[LSJ] Question About Game Flow

This is boring illustration of VTES game procedure which I am fascinated with for no apparent reason other than they seem woefully inadequately defined in the rulebook. Setup- The Order of Players' seating MethA MethB MethC MethD MethE (MethE's prey is MethA) consider: 0. MethA's minion phase 1. MethA declares bleed against MethB with VampA 2. MethB has option to respond (let's say attempt block) 3. MethC has option to respond (Eagle's Sight,Bauble, whatever...) 4. MethD has option to respond 5. MethE has option to respond 6. MethA has option to respond Seems simple enough if it is correct but it's not according to my digging in the newsgroup. This flow demonstrates the flow within reason: 1. MethA declares bleed against MethB with VampA (Has option to play as many effects as she wants) MethE activates a sup. bauble MethE activates a sup. bauble Pass 2. MethB has option to respond (Has option to play as many effects as she wants) MethB attempts to block with VampB MethE activates a sup. bauble MethE activates a sup. bauble Pass 3. MethC has option to respond MethC activates a sup. bauble. MethC play's sup eagle sight on VampC Pass 4. MethD has option to respond Pass 5. MethE has option to respond (MethE has option to play as many effects as she wants) MethE activates a sup. bauble MethE activates a sup. bauble MethE burns sabbat threat counters ... Pass 6. MethA has option to respond Adds stealth via bonding (or whatever) Pass 7. MethB has option to respond Enhanced Senses Pass 8. MethC has option to respond (Eagle's Sight,Bauble, whatever...) Pass 9. MethD has option to respond Plays Sup. Eagle Sight on VampD Pass 10.MethE has option to respond Pass 11.MethA has option to respond MethA plays Lost in crowds 12.MethB has option to respond Pass Block Fizzles? 13.MethC has option to respond VampC attempts to block. MethC plays enhanced senses. (MethC fails to draw more intercept or to play it) Pass Block fizzles? 14.MethD has option to respond VampD attempts to block. MethD plays enhanced senses. MethD plays Venetian Conference (let's pretend it applies) Pass 15.MethE has option to respond Pass 16.MethA has option to respond MethA plays Dawn operation Pass 17.MethB has option to respond Pass 18.MethC has option to respond MethC plays Venetian Conference Pass 19.MethD has option to respond Cancels block attempt Pass Block no longer exists 20.MethE has option to respond Pass Action resolves, to the chagrin of all parties. So we see MethC had a vamp capable of blocking, but is afforded no opportunity to do so because of action-response flow, correct? Makes sense to me. Now here's something that doesn't... 0. MethA declares start of minion phase 1. MethA declares end of minion phase If other meths wanted to burn sabbat threat counters, when does that option come in and in response to what? Are declaring the beginning and ending of a phase akin to an undirected action or do they allow a meth to completely bypass a phase (as far as other meths are concerned, as they cannot play effects in between like bauble or threat counters). Obviously reaction cards can only be played in response to actions, so those are excluded from the discussion.

VTES2004 wrote: > This is boring illustration of VTES game procedure which I am > fascinated with for no apparent reason other than they seem woefully > inadequately defined in the rulebook. > > Setup- > > The Order of Players' seating > MethA > MethB > MethC > MethD > MethE (MethE's prey is MethA) > > consider: > > 0. MethA's minion phase > 1. MethA declares bleed against MethB with VampA 0. MethA declares bleed. 1. MethA has option to modify. ... A passes. > 2. MethB has option to respond (let's say attempt block) ... MethB passes without attempting to block or otherwise respond. > 3. MethC has option to respond (Eagle's Sight,Bauble, whatever...) ... MethC passes without attempting to block or otherwise respond. > 4. MethD has option to respond ... MethD passes without attempting to block or otherwise respond. > 5. MethE has option to respond ... MethE passes without attempting to block or otherwise respond. > 6. MethA has option to respond Not true. MethA goes first, not last. If anyone plays any effect (including a block attempt or the declaration of no block), then you go back to 1 (MethA has option to modify). > Seems simple enough if it is correct but it's not according to my > digging in the newsgroup. It is not correct, correct. > This flow demonstrates the flow within reason: > > 1. MethA declares bleed against MethB with VampA > (Has option to play as many effects as she wants) > MethE activates a sup. bauble ... only once A-D pass. > MethE activates a sup. bauble ... only if A-D pass after the previous Bauble activation. > Pass Snip similar. See section 1.6.1.6 for details on the actual procedure, as described in my responses above. > So we see MethC had a vamp capable of blocking, but is afforded no > opportunity to do so because of action-response flow, correct? Meth C has a chance to block unless someone with a higher priority blocks (successfully) first or the action is canceled/ended by some effect applied before C's chance to block. > Makes sense to me. > > Now here's something that doesn't... > > 0. MethA declares start of minion phase > 1. MethA declares end of minion phase > > If other meths wanted to burn sabbat threat counters, when does that > option come in and in response to what? Are declaring the beginning 0. Meth A enters her minion phase. 1. Meth A passes. 2. Meth B gest opportunity to burn threat counters or whatever. ... When all pass, move on. > and ending of a phase akin to an undirected action or do they allow a > meth to completely bypass a phase (as far as other meths are > concerned, as they cannot play effects in between like bauble or > threat counters). Obviously reaction cards can only be played in Declarations of phases are not events. They aren't under any single Methuselah's control. When all pass in one stage, all move on to the next stage. No Methuselah can bypass a stage. > response to actions, so those are excluded from the discussion. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F7B601F...@white-wolf.com>... > VTES2004 wrote: > > This is boring illustration of VTES game procedure which I am > > fascinated with for no apparent reason other than they seem woefully > > inadequately defined in the rulebook. > 0. Meth A enters her minion phase. > 1. Meth A passes. > 2. Meth B gest opportunity to burn threat counters or whatever. > ... > > Declarations of phases are not events. > They aren't under any single Methuselah's control. > When all pass in one stage, all move on to the next stage. > No Methuselah can bypass a stage. While recursive looping was something I originally considered, I did not think you would actually say that's the correct mechanic because of the problems (and more importantly, COMPLEXITY) recursion brings. I now have a host of timing questions! Q1: Is MethA always first to respond in all events during her mainphase? 1. MethA enters minion phase 2. MethA passes 3. MethB Burns threat counters (First opportunity to respond is MethA or MethC?) Now that Q1 is answered, onto the paradoxes created - Q2: Can you respond to a pass? According to the model, it seems like you might be able to, but in practice you cant, it would create infinite recursion with the person who passed. (If MethA always responds first as per Q1) 1. MethA enters minion phase 2. MethA passes 2.1 MethA has the opportunity and passes in response to 2. 2.1.1 MethA passes in response to 2.1 2.1.1.1 MethA passes in response to 2.1.1 2.1.1.1.1 MethA passes in response to 2.1.1.1 ......... ad infinitum It really doesnt matter who acts first, as the first response chain would end up in a infinite logical procedural recursion.

VTES2004 expounded: [ quoted text not captured ] Now you're just being silly. You simply play an infinite pass ;P Anyway, clearly you never get to react to your own pass -nor in fact does anyone ever 'react' to a pass; they merely get the opportunity to act as a result of the pass. Meth A DOES NOT get an opportunity to react to Meth B's pass: it moves on through C, D and E then (if all pass) to the next phase.

VTES2004 wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F7B601F...@white-wolf.com>... > >>VTES2004 wrote: >> >>>This is boring illustration of VTES game procedure which I am >>>fascinated with for no apparent reason other than they seem woefully >>>inadequately defined in the rulebook. >> > >>0. Meth A enters her minion phase. >>1. Meth A passes. >>2. Meth B gest opportunity to burn threat counters or whatever. >>... >> >>Declarations of phases are not events. >>They aren't under any single Methuselah's control. >>When all pass in one stage, all move on to the next stage. >>No Methuselah can bypass a stage. > > > While recursive looping was something I originally considered, I did > not think you would actually say that's the correct mechanic because > of the problems (and more importantly, COMPLEXITY) recursion brings. I > now have a host of timing questions! There is no recursion. There is iteration. When an effect is played (the opposite of "pass"), abort the current cycle and restart (iterate) - you do not suspend the cycle, recurse, and then resume. > Q1: Is MethA always first to respond in all events during her > mainphase? See 1.6.1.6 > 1. MethA enters minion phase > 2. MethA passes > 3. MethB Burns threat counters > (First opportunity to respond is MethA or MethC?) MethA. See 1.6.1.6 > Now that Q1 is answered, onto the paradoxes created - > > Q2: Can you respond to a pass? No. A pass is the opposite of an effect. Effects are responded to (by restarting the 1.6.1.6 queue). [ quoted text not captured ]

Sorry for being a top poster, but isn; the order wrong? Meth A announced Action, Meth A has the opt to play action mods Meth B has the option to respond Meth E has the option to respond Meth C " " Meth D " " David

[ quoted text not captured ] No. The action in question is a bleed against B. So B (the target) gets first shot, then the other non-targets (going clockwise from A). See 1.6.1.6 [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ expounded: > Metropolis wrote: > > Sorry for being a top poster, but isn; the order wrong? > > > > > > Meth A announced Action, > > Meth A has the opt to play action mods > > Meth B has the option to respond > > Meth E has the option to respond > > Meth C " " > > Meth D " " > > No. The action in question is a bleed against B. > > So B (the target) gets first shot, then the other non-targets (going > clockwise from A). > > See 1.6.1.6 Look at the order again. You have E coming before C and D. That is wrong. (at least I REALLY hope it is..)

do...@umich.edu (Metropolis) wrote in message news:<e9ad0229.03100...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Where are the passes that MUST follow? heh. I think this is a good game flow example: ------------------------------------------- MethA has VampireX bleed MethB MethB has VampireZ attempt to block MethA plays lost in crowds on VampireX MethB passes MethC passes MethD passes MethE passes Block fails to occur at the end. Other Meths could have played global effects reducing the stealth to 0 or if no Lost In Crowds, could otherwise change the stealth, so block attempt officially fails at the end of the sequence? I think that's right) ------------------------------------------- Here would be another correct flow: ------------------------------------------- MethA has VampireX equip Hawg MethB has VampireZ attempts to block MethA passes MethB plays enhanced senses on VampireZ (+1) MethA plays lost in crowds (+1) MethB passes MethE passes MethC passes MethD passes Block fails. ... Action succeeds? Action effect takes place? -------------------------------------------- There may actually be card effects that can occur in there, but for the topic, this is sufficient.

Timlagor expounded: [ quoted text not captured ] Deary me. Need to read a bit more carefully. Sorry about that. Feel free to ignore my 2 posts :-) E is A's predator. Metropolis reckons they get to reacy before C or D but after the prey. ie that the order above (ABECD) is correct and the order originally posted (ABCDE) was wrong. LSJ says that the action was *directed* so the predator gets no priority. Even I can't misunderstand that.

vtes...@yahoo.com (VTES2004) wrote in message news:<ce255bc1.03100...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Too much sparetime, huh? ;)