KMW: Abomination Clan Rules

New Clan: Abomination Kindred Most Wanted introduces a new clan: Abomination. The members of this clan are printed with the Scarce and Sterile traits. The rules for those terms, and others, are collected section 11 of the new KMW rulebook. The default sect of an Abomination is Independent (in case anyone wants to impersonate one). Note that the Abomination library card (printed in Final Nights) creates a vampire of the Abomination clan (errata to that card), so having one of those out will increase the scarce penalty of a crypt card Abomination. -- Colin "Eryx" Goodman Samedi Primogen Cambridge UK http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.html

"Colin Goodman" <colin.g...@ntlworld.com> escribió en el mensaje news:HUnQd.1151$eG2...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net... > New Clan: Abomination > Kindred Most Wanted introduces a new clan: Abomination. The members of this > clan are printed with the Scarce and Sterile traits. The rules for those > terms, and others, are collected section 11 of the new KMW rulebook. > > The default sect of an Abomination is Independent (in case anyone wants to > impersonate one). > > Note that the Abomination library card (printed in Final Nights) creates a > vampire of the Abomination clan (errata to that card), so having one of > those out will increase the scarce penalty of a crypt card Abomination. > > Yes! Now let's see if there is a Hrothulf ADV following Allonzo on the checklist. Or any other able to mimetize Abomination's card text Question: If I already have a Abomination (crypt card) in play and create an Abomination (library card) do I have to pay the scarce cost? [ quoted text not captured ]

"Smiling Tom" <tma...@almadrava.net> wrote in message news:37eihnF...@individual.net... > Question: If I already have a Abomination (crypt card) in play and create an > Abomination (library card) do I have to pay the scarce cost? 1) The library card is not marked "scarce", so it is not scarce. 2) If it were scarce, the scarce rule would still only apply as written: "When you move a vampire marked scarce from your uncontrolled region to the ready region, you burn 3 pool for every other vampire of the same clan already in play." -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

"Colin Goodman" <colin.g...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:HUnQd.1151$eG2...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net... > New Clan: Abomination > Kindred Most Wanted introduces a new clan: Abomination. The members of > this clan are printed with the Scarce and Sterile traits. The rules for > those terms, and others, are collected section 11 of the new KMW rulebook. > > The default sect of an Abomination is Independent (in case anyone wants to > impersonate one). > > Note that the Abomination library card (printed in Final Nights) creates a > vampire of the Abomination clan (errata to that card), so having one of > those out will increase the scarce penalty of a crypt card Abomination. > Heh. There's a card that sooo did _not_ need to be made worse. Yah, well... I gues it makes things consistent. So yeah, Alonzo is fairly underpowered; 6 points of disciplines with one mildly beneficial special against three drawbacks (Scarce, sterile, cannot block undirected actions) for a 6 cap. Someone please show me the math on how this prices out right? Are those three drawbacks considered zero point? *Shrug* Maybe there'll be some kickass clan-specific card which will make them more worth playing. Something to put them in Crinos form, and give 'em POT CEL PRO for the duration of a combat, or some such foolishness. :-) DZ AW

"David Zopf" <david...@snet.net> wrote in message news:aXoQd.30775$by5....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com... > *Shrug* Maybe there'll be some kickass clan-specific card which will make > them more worth playing. Something to put them in Crinos form, and give > 'em POT CEL PRO for the duration of a combat, or some such foolishness. > :-) >\ 'Bay and Howl" maybe? I have hope, again... DZ AW

David Zopf <david...@snet.net> wrote: > So yeah, Alonzo is fairly underpowered; 6 points of disciplines > with one mildly beneficial special against three drawbacks (Scarce, > sterile, cannot block undirected actions) for a 6 cap. Someone > please show me the math on how this prices out right? Are those > three drawbacks considered zero point? 6-caps get 6 points. +6 pts: disciplines +1 pt: serpentis stealth -1/4: scarce -1/4: sterile -1/2: cannot block undirected actions ---- 6 pts > DZ > AW Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

> Question: If I already have a Abomination (crypt card) in play and > create an Abomination (library card) do I have to pay the scarce cost? No. The scarce penalty is applicable when a card is moved from the uncontrolled region to the controlled region. At that moment, you check the scarce penalty. Ankur

David Zopf wrote: > So yeah, Alonzo is fairly underpowered Well, on the other hand, he is the only 6-cap with OBF SER, and the +1 Serpentis stealth isn't too shabby. Although I do wish that there are some kick-ass clan cards for the Abominations, since otherwise poor Allonzo is just a watered-down Setite. Will be interesting to see what sort of discipline combos the other Abominations have. --CV

"Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote in message news:HupQd.31640$xt.21121@fed1read07... > David Zopf <david...@snet.net> wrote: >> So yeah, Alonzo is fairly underpowered; 6 points of disciplines >> with one mildly beneficial special against three drawbacks (Scarce, >> sterile, cannot block undirected actions) for a 6 cap. Someone >> please show me the math on how this prices out right? Are those >> three drawbacks considered zero point? > > 6-caps get 6 points. > > +6 pts: disciplines > +1 pt: serpentis stealth When it comes on a minion with OBF (easy stealth)? Maybe this is where I'm coming up short. I wouldn't value conditional stealth on a minion with OBF as any more than a 1/4 to 1/2 point special > -1/4: scarce > -1/4: sterile Agreed. > -1/2: cannot block undirected actions ...and I'd consider this to be a bigger drawback, especially when the minion bears aus as an "off discipline". Meh. I'll repeat myself, some good clan-specific cards could make all the difference.. Thanks for the math, Kevin. DZ AW

"The Cadaverous Verger" <cadavero...@REMOVETHISpriest.com> wrote in message news:cut90j$11mg$1...@bowmore.utu.fi... [ quoted text not captured ] possibilities, if only for their Garou-ish sounding names; Bay and Howl Follow the Alpha Pack Alpha ? DZ AW

"David Zopf" <david...@snet.net> wrote in message news:aXoQd.30775$by5....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com... > So yeah, Alonzo is fairly underpowered; 6 points of disciplines with one > mildly beneficial special against three drawbacks (Scarce, sterile, cannot > block undirected actions) for a 6 cap. Someone please show me the math on > how this prices out right? Are those three drawbacks considered zero point? "mildly benefial" against three "mostly unnoticeable" drawbacks. How much would you like Scarce and Sterile to be worth? They affect deck construction a bit, but are thusly worked around (or at least, can be). [ quoted text not captured ]

I am so dissappointed in Allonzo. In the Rage card game this guy was big and scary. What is he doing with Serpentis? He is a werewolf for f**k's sake!!! Where are all of his combat disciplines and abilities? He was a Shadow Lord, a purveyor of intrigue, power and pride. So he became a vampire. Yeah that sort of messes with your mind when you become your arch enemy. You suffer Harano, which is like depression kicked up a notch or two. So give him some stupid drawback....but give him some combat baby!!! Where is his potence? He should have Celerity at the very least. Werewolves are combat machines!!!

[ quoted text not captured ] You're assuming that what you see in the preview is all there is to Allonzo. You might be right, but others have speculated that there might be some good Abomination Clan cards or that maybe there will be an advanced Allonzo which features him in his Crinos form or something like that. Matt Morgan

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:37eps0F...@individual.net... > "David Zopf" <david...@snet.net> wrote in message > news:aXoQd.30775$by5....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com... >> So yeah, Alonzo is fairly underpowered; 6 points of disciplines with >> one >> mildly beneficial special against three drawbacks (Scarce, sterile, >> cannot >> block undirected actions) for a 6 cap. Someone please show me the math >> on >> how this prices out right? Are those three drawbacks considered zero >> point? > > "mildly benefial" against three "mostly unnoticeable" drawbacks. > > How much would you like Scarce and Sterile to be worth? > They affect deck construction a bit, but are thusly worked around (or > at least, can be). > Agreed. I guess I don't consider them (scarce and sterile) to be too big of a drawback, and they aren't worth much. Kevin's take on the math kind of gelled the root of my objection; a conditional stealth bonus special on a minion with OBF already is (should be) of low value. A restriction onlocking undirected actions for a minion with aus is (should be) a moderate to high value drawback. Yah, well, as I said twice before, clan-specific goodies can make all the difference, and I'm only looking at one preview vampire in the proverbial Void... Its not as big a deal as my first post might have implied, maybe a difference of a half to one point. I can definitely see the logic in having the Abomination vampire card represent the Homid form of the critter, possibly having library cards for pushing it over into Crinos for the Big Combat effect. Its definitely better balance-wise than having the pre-packaged, high-cost monstrosities which some Samuel Haight fan-boys seem to be asking for across the various fora... And anyways, I suppose I should get in queue to do some playtesting if I _really_ wanted my comments taken seriously... ;-) Regards, DaveZ Atom Weaver

> kicked up a notch or two. So give him some stupid drawback....but give > him some combat baby!!! Where is his potence? He should have Celerity > at the very least. Werewolves are combat machines!!! Please refer to the following cards: Typhonic Beast Skin of the Adder Jones Heart of Darkness (if you wish) With ani/aus, he can really make things hurt. (Raptors anyone?) He needs no potence to be a beat machine of doom. Vampires do not require potence or celerity to kill. Ankur Gupta Prince of West Lafayette

David Zopf wrote: > Agreed. I guess I don't consider them (scarce and sterile) to be too > big of a drawback, and they aren't worth much. Kevin's take on the > math kind of gelled the root of my objection; a conditional stealth > bonus special on a minion with OBF already is (should be) of low > value. I disagree with this. I think it's worth about exactly as much as a permenant maneuver would be on a minion that has CEL. Probably more, since taking actions is better than beating people up. -- David Cherryholmes david.che...@gmail.com "OK. So be it. It's not my view, but whatever makes you happy, right? I'm all about making you happy, Dave. :-)" -- LSJ, V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 16:58:03 GMT, "David Zopf" <david...@snet.net> wrote: >> 6-caps get 6 points. >> >> +6 pts: disciplines >> +1 pt: serpentis stealth > >When it comes on a minion with OBF (easy stealth)? Maybe this is where I'm >coming up short. I wouldn't value conditional stealth on a minion with OBF >as any more than a 1/4 to 1/2 point special I guess the point is that he has +1 stealth to actions that he can easily perform - he has [SER]. Saving slots on stealth cards is nothing to sneeze at. Conversely, the best Serpentis actions don't have inherent stealth: Form of Corruption and Temptation. Alonzo can play these cards better than any Setite - there's no OBF SER Setite below 7-cap yet. I'd consider it worth 1 point, yeah, even if these two does not require [ser] to be effective - the superior effect of these cards are quite good also. >> -1/4: scarce >> -1/4: sterile > >Agreed. I've heard these are attributes that doesn't give a vampire any points. Look for the Gargoyles and Ahrimanes. They don't seem to get that better from being slaves or sterile, specially if you account that there is room for 0.5 point variations up and down when it comes to big caps. >> -1/2: cannot block undirected actions >...and I'd consider this to be a bigger drawback, especially when the minion >bears aus as an "off discipline". Hm, it's just [aus] and it's not likely to be used with a minion with this particular discipline combination - he's hard to defend. I'd bet most decks will use him proactively with or without Auspex. >Meh. I'll repeat myself, some good clan-specific cards could make all the >difference.. >Thanks for the math, Kevin. >DZ >AW best, Fabio "Sooner" Macedo V:EKN National Coordinator for Brazil -------------------------------------- Now a "luminary", whatever it means: http://www.thelasombra.com/WhosWho/fabiomacedo.htm

"Colin Goodman" <colin.g...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:HUnQd.1151$eG2...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net... > New Clan: Abomination > Kindred Most Wanted introduces a new clan: Abomination. The members of this clan are printed with the Scarce and Sterile traits. > The rules for those terms, and others, are collected section 11 of the new KMW rulebook. > > The default sect of an Abomination is Independent (in case anyone wants to impersonate one). > > Note that the Abomination library card (printed in Final Nights) creates a vampire of the Abomination clan (errata to that card), > so having one of those out will increase the scarce penalty of a crypt card Abomination. Eh. So far, ho hum. We already have scarce bloodlines. I suppose they would have to create a new one to support the backstory but it has little game meaning. However, with some _clan_ cards it would definitely be more interesting. On the other hand, using clan cards with scarce AND sterile vampires is extremely awkward and difficult. How much so depends on whether there's a usable outferior, a burnable attribute, or other such mitigations. But either way, such cards better be pretty impactful or they'll never see daylight. (One last library card yet to be revealed. Hmmmm.) Fred

"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:37esnjF...@individual.net... > David Zopf wrote: > >> Agreed. I guess I don't consider them (scarce and sterile) to be too >> big of a drawback, and they aren't worth much. Kevin's take on the >> math kind of gelled the root of my objection; a conditional stealth >> bonus special on a minion with OBF already is (should be) of low >> value. > > I disagree with this. I think it's worth about exactly as much as a > permenant maneuver would be on a minion that has CEL. Probably more, > since taking actions is better than beating people up. Free stealth on a vampire that doesn't have obf or obt is definitely more worthwhile than free stealth on a vampire which has ready access to stealth - assuming you can build a deck that will use the stealth. (Kevin Mergen and I were just arguing about the value of Jost on the www.vtesinla.org website.) The free maneuver on a vampire that doesn't have celerity is probably not a very good comparison since the existance of Fake Out tends to make that situation somewhat murky. But the assumption about being able to use the stealth is not a given, of course, which is the real problem with trying to get to the bottom of this issue. You're both right in certain circumstances. Anyway, I don't find the fact that Alonzo has obfuscate to mitigate the value of the free stealth as much as the fact that it can only be used for serpentis actions. The latter is MUCH more to the point! Fred

Typhonic Beast would be great if our Mr. Montoya only had Potence!!! I believe there is STILL not a single vampire able to play this card to full effect out of the box. Wouldn't a Werewolf/vampire be the perfect candidate to champion this card? Apparently NOT. Skin of the Adder would be great too if there was some way to guarantee that your opponent won't play combat ends! I play Skin of the Adder....BEWARE MY SERPENTIS OF DOOM.....oh you Combat Ended. Great, why didn't I just play sneak and bleed with Serpentis? Hence the need for Celerity or preferable Potence.....even minor! The Jones counteracts combat ends..cool, but it requires you to be an older vampire. So I have to accept the fact that if I play 6 caps (like Allonso), I can only use it against 5 cap and below, or I play big vamps who have much better things to do than use The Jones, like Majesty and then perform some other useful action! Plus you STILL can't play The Jones against vamps who you really need to use it on, like Arika. Heart of Darkness: no need to even make a point. Come on, are you telling me that inferior ani and inferior aus are scary? Why play an inferior Raptor? Play Raven Spy for 1 less and get the same effect! Crinos form Abominations better be worth it! gNat [ quoted text not captured ]

> With ani/aus, he can really make things hurt. (Raptors anyone?) He needs > no potence to be a beat machine of doom. Vampires do not require potence > or celerity to kill. Err, that was supposed to be "Murder of Crows, anyone?". Oops. Ankur Gupta Prince of West Lafayette "But I thought Aggripina really *did* have cel!"

> Free stealth on a vampire that doesn't have obf or obt is definitely > more worthwhile than free stealth on a vampire which has ready access to > stealth - assuming you can build a deck that will use the stealth. Eh. I tend to think of it as a card-saving special, much like most other specials (+1 strength being one of the easier to demonstrate as such). There are quite a number of 0 or 1 stealth (serpentis) actions I'd love for my vampires to take. And gosh, if I could run lighter on the stealth, I could put in more of them. . . . WAIT! Here's a dude who does that! > Anyway, I don't find the fact that Alonzo has obfuscate to mitigate the > value of the free stealth as much as the fact that it can only be used > for serpentis actions. The latter is MUCH more to the point! Meh. If you're not using the stealth for serpentis actions, then there's probably a better vampire for your crypt anyway. Largely because you probably aren't using Serpentis to begin with. What I find completely mind-boggling is that people malign really really good vampires because they don't do what people want them to. . . Allonzo isn't intended to be just the bestest vampire ever (that's Arika, for those not in the know), but I'm sure I could (and will) build several decks in which he will be worth his weight in gold. I'd much prefer if people actually looked at vampires positively as to what they can do instead of what they can't. I'm sure it would have a positive impact on the game. Games need to be diverse and not homogenous piles of weenie bleed/vote/combat or whatever. I think we can all abstractly point to the "tournament metagame" as something that can generally be separated from other circumstances of V:TES play. Moreover, I think that most of us could agree that there are a few well-known archetypes in that style of games that do well. And that (again, generally speaking) they're not particularly innovative. To get on a soapbox, I think it's quite clear that the trend for V:TES is to allow for (and I could possibly argue "move towards") decks which toolbox. Things like "Instead of X copies of card Y, play X-2 copies of Y and 2 copies of Z". My best example is that of Stunt Cycle vs. Thrown Sewer Lid which does just that. But there are many others. There are quite a number of cards (and vampires!) which are making this subtle movement. Movements which make analyzing the game more difficult, allow players to include secondary effects to a main strategy which may play heavily in a particular game, lessening the opportunity cost of the cards themselves, and adding supporting library cards such that someone can actually *include* this wealth of new cards. To bring the point back around, Allonzo serves the purpose of opening up library slots for something other than stealth. This is good since you know, stealth doesn't do stuff on its own. It enables doing stuff. And Allonzo is all about doing stuff. At +1 stealth even. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Ankur Gupta" <agu...@cs.duke.edu> wrote in message news:Pine.GSO.4.62.05...@peso.cs.duke.edu... >> Free stealth on a vampire that doesn't have obf or obt is definitely >> more worthwhile than free stealth on a vampire which has ready access to >> stealth - assuming you can build a deck that will use the stealth. > > Eh. I tend to think of it as a card-saving special, much like most other > specials (+1 strength being one of the easier to demonstrate as such). > There are quite a number of 0 or 1 stealth (serpentis) actions I'd love > for my vampires to take. And gosh, if I could run lighter on the stealth, > I could put in more of them. . . . WAIT! Here's a dude who does that! It's a card-saving special either way. Question is, is it a card-saving special that saves you cards you _can_ use or _can't_ use. If they're cards you couldn't otherwise choose to use...WOW!...that's much better! Again, with the caveat that they'll mean anything in that deck. >> Anyway, I don't find the fact that Alonzo has obfuscate to mitigate the >> value of the free stealth as much as the fact that it can only be used >> for serpentis actions. The latter is MUCH more to the point! > > Meh. If you're not using the stealth for serpentis actions, then there's > probably a better vampire for your crypt anyway. You sound as if you build decks where vampires _only_ _ever_ take serpentis actions. In fact, you sound as if you can build such a deck. You can not. Allonzo WILL take actions that aren't serpentis actions, I don't care what you meant to use the stealth for. Each time he does, the limitation kicks in. That limitation WILL have an effect. And it will almost certainly mean more than the issue of whether he has obfuscate or not. > What I find completely > mind-boggling is that people malign really really good vampires because > they don't do what people want them to. . . Allonzo isn't intended to be > just the bestest vampire ever (that's Arika, for those not in the know), > but I'm sure I could (and will) build several decks in which he will be > worth his weight in gold. I don't know if you meant to include my comments above in that category but you chose to stick them underneath that quote. It was not intended to make malign Allonzo for not having a pure +1 stealth ability. I was just noting that the ability is of much more limited value than a pure +1 stealth ability, for what it's worth. I don't think anyone will be able to judge what Allonzo is "intended to be" or not until (at least) we know what clan cards are available to him, if any. > And Allonzo is all about doing stuff. > > At +1 stealth even. Allonzo is about doing SOME stuff at +1 stealth. Fred

> Typhonic Beast would be great if our Mr. Montoya only had Potence!!! I > believe there is STILL not a single vampire able to play this card to > full effect out of the box. Wouldn't a Werewolf/vampire be the perfect > candidate to champion this card? Apparently NOT. Typhonic beast has a serpentis outferior. You can put him into a crypt which runs potence/serpentis and he can still use the card until he gets Hand of Conrad or a potence skill card. It's still quite great. > Skin of the Adder would be great too if there was some way to guarantee > that your opponent won't play combat ends! I play Skin of the > Adder....BEWARE MY SERPENTIS OF DOOM.....oh you Combat Ended. Great, > why didn't I just play sneak and bleed with Serpentis? Hence the need > for Celerity or preferable Potence.....even minor! Gee, does every combat deck ever need to beat combat ends? I mean like every deck ever? What about poor animalism decks? Should I ignore all the really good decks with animalism combat which completely sodomize vampires (and win games)? Play to run them out. . . There's no *need* for such things. They're nice, sure. But not strictly necessary. You want Allonzo to be a beat machine in a particular fashion, and you're not seeing that he already is. . . you just have to *think*. > The Jones counteracts combat ends..cool, but it requires you to be an > older vampire. So I have to accept the fact that if I play 6 caps > (like Allonso), I can only use it against 5 cap and below, or I play > big vamps who have much better things to do than use The Jones, like Oh wait. There is a response to combat ends after all. . . but now we're complaining that it isn't useful on all vampires. Gosh. Whatever shall we do? So you can't torpor Arika with Allonzo; that's so unfair. I bet you couldn't torpor Arika with any other deck either with as much gusto as you'd like, due to the likelihood of obedience or fortitude prevent being there as well. And if you could, well, now you have a deck that can't actually get into combat with Arika because it probably doesn't have stealth to hit the right minion. Or if you can do all of those things, you probably can't oust reliably. Or if you can do all of *that*, then send me a decklist. And I'm wrong. And I'm sorry. The key here is that no, you won't win any given particular combat with Arika. But eventually, you'll get her. And when you do, it'll wreck his game. On the other hand, with Arika majestying out all the time, Allonzo's just *fine*. You can slap a perfectionist/blood doll on him, and suddenly, he's bleeding for 1 (2 or more with revelations!), enticing (at stealth, mind you), or rushing and gaining you pool at the same time. He really is a horrible deal, huh? > Majesty and then perform some other useful action! Plus you STILL > can't play The Jones against vamps who you really need to use it on, > like Arika. You're right. You can't. How many majesties is he going to play? > Heart of Darkness: no need to even make a point. Hey, preventing a damage and treating agg as normal isn't all that bad. Ever equipped a flak jacket? > Come on, are you telling me that inferior ani and inferior aus are > scary? Why play an inferior Raptor? Play Raven Spy for 1 less and get > the same effect! I had meant to say murder of crows. (My mistake, and I've written that in another post as well.) Now they have an incentive to majesty and all you've committed is your rush and/or bleed. ani/aus does really great things. Draw out their beast. . . so much synergy with skin of the adder it hurts, really. Inferior carrion crows isn't all that bad either -- here's why: Serpentis combat lends itself to press combat. Carrion crows is like getting +1 strength for the remainder of combat, but wait, you can rip off your own arm and throw it at them at long range if you need to. Auspex shows you their hand. Now you *know* how many majesties poor Arika has to play. And though I made a mistake about raptors, you can use both them (and raven spies) for that matter to gain intercept. Benefit of a raptor is that now your infamous Arika has to lose 2 cards each combat to get out from underneath you. Hell, you could even revelations out some of his majesties! But I agree with you that aus isn't scary it all. Oh, you can also block if you want with transient cards, since you have aus. (Actually, you can block with any deck now, regardless of auspex.) That sweet sweet bowl of convergence suddenly makes poor old defenseless Allonzo that much better. Oh, and if we're blocking now, we could play Chiram's Hold to either hemmorage another majesty or make him pay double for it. Eventually, it'll add up. Yeah, ani/aus/SER/(OBF) sucks. It would be great if you'd look beyond "must do everything at superior". That would help. It would also help if you'd look beyond "standard" answers to combat defense. . . psyche and grapple are tired. Consider another way of beating the snot out of someone and build something, you know, interesting. > Crinos form Abominations better be worth it! I guess. Ankur Gupta Prince of West Lafayette, IN

"Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> writes: > "Ankur Gupta" <agu...@cs.duke.edu> wrote in message > news:Pine.GSO.4.62.05...@peso.cs.duke.edu... > > > And Allonzo is all about doing stuff. > > > > At +1 stealth even. > > Allonzo is about doing SOME stuff at +1 stealth. Temptations and Forms of Corruption are nice, but consider this: Allonzo plays Enticement. Three unbouncable, unreducable pool damage to your prey, at inherent +1 stealth. Total number of cards played: one. That's like dropping a KRC, where you need the edge instead of vote lock. I can see a hideous stealth Enticement deck starring Alonzo and Sargon... (It could be called "Nazi science sneers at bleed bounce!" :-) -- hg@ "If you can't offend part of your audience, iki.fi there is no point in being an artist at all." -Hakim Bey

> It's a card-saving special either way. Question is, is it a card-saving > special that saves you cards you _can_ use or _can't_ use. If they're > cards you couldn't otherwise choose to use...WOW!...that's much better! > Again, with the caveat that they'll mean anything in that deck. I think that's really side-stepping the point. Any deck with serpentis actions *could* allow Allonzo to do them. More on this below. >>> Anyway, I don't find the fact that Alonzo has obfuscate to mitigate the >>> value of the free stealth as much as the fact that it can only be used >>> for serpentis actions. The latter is MUCH more to the point! >> >> Meh. If you're not using the stealth for serpentis actions, then there's >> probably a better vampire for your crypt anyway. > > You sound as if you build decks where vampires _only_ _ever_ take > serpentis actions. In fact, you sound as if you can build such a deck. > You can not. Allonzo WILL take actions that aren't serpentis actions, Sure to the part about "you can not". But, in decks with serpentis actions, you *can* make every effort (and I realize this next bit is a limitation) to have him take the serpentis actions. Now, my point stems partially from the fact that this is not really all that much of a limitation, if it is one at all in practice. Serpentis is one of those disciplines that you just don't get at superior consistently enough in your low-midcap range to build decks where you won't have some sacrifices made. Allonzo fits in as a vampire with SER, and a really strong special when you're using Serpentis at all. Your other guys do different things (bleed, diablerize, go make ham sandwiches, whatever) and Allonzo pushes through your Serpentis stuff. For all intents and purposes, that's +1 stealth. > I don't care what you meant to use the stealth for. Each time he does, > the limitation kicks in. That limitation WILL have an effect. And it > will almost certainly mean more than the issue of whether he has > obfuscate or not. I don't understand this paragraph at all. >> What I find completely mind-boggling is that people malign really >> really good vampires because they don't do what people want them to. . >> . Allonzo isn't intended to be just the bestest vampire ever (that's >> Arika, for those not in the know), but I'm sure I could (and will) >> build several decks in which he will be worth his weight in gold. > > I don't know if you meant to include my comments above in that category > but you chose to stick them underneath that quote. It was not intended > to make malign Allonzo for not having a pure +1 stealth ability. I was Yeah, well, I don't mean them to apply wholly to your comments, but I do think you're underestimating the value of his special to the point that it could be considered maligning. I mean, heck, a vampire has two superior disciplines: SER/OBF. What would he go into decks to do? Well, use serpentis. When he takes those actions, he gets +1 stealth. That's pretty darned hot in my book. And it's really short-sighted to expect that he won't make 1 point worth of costing value out of that special. > just noting that the ability is of much more limited value than a pure +1 > stealth ability, for what it's worth. I don't think anyone will be able > to judge what Allonzo is "intended to be" or not until (at least) we know > what clan cards are available to him, if any. Forget clan cards. As he is *right now*, he's good enough. I mean, it seems like we're quibbling over 0.5 points or some such. Why? Sure, it's more limited than simple, easy Lucretia-style +1 stealth, but for all practical purposes it's basically the same. I don't expect abominations to be a real clan with lots of members floating all over the place. So his scarce penalty will probably not be that big a deal. Nor will his sterility. Once you look at that, you think. . . He can't block undirected actions versus he gets +1 stealth when doing a bunch of stuff. Seems like more than a fair trade to me for a vampire loaded with OBF/SER. >> And Allonzo is all about doing stuff. >> >> At +1 stealth even. > > Allonzo is about doing SOME stuff at +1 stealth. Allonzo isn't going to be in your deck if he isn't doing MANY/MOST/ALL stuff at +1 stealth. Heck, build me a deck where Allonzo is a better choice than any other vampire you could put into the crypt to replace him AND you won't be using serpentis actions such that you can have him do them instead of someone else. That's when I'll believe that his special is really a limitation worth costing down. Ankur Gupta Prince of West Lafayette, IN

David Zopf wrote: > ... a conditional stealth bonus special on a > minion with OBF already is (should be) of low value. That's like saying +1 strength on a minion with POT is of less value, or +1 intercept on a minion with AUS is of less value, or a built-in maneuver on a minion with CEL is of less value. Sure, those vamps easily could get the same effect and better by playing a card, but getting the benefit without needing to play a card is an enormous benefit, and has synergy with the cards they are likely to play.

In message <Pine.GSO.4.62.05...@peso.cs.duke.edu>, Ankur Gupta <agu...@cs.duke.edu> writes: >Allonzo isn't intended to be just the bestest vampire ever (that's >Arika, for those not in the know), Grrr. How can that honour not go to Gratiano? Best. Vampire. Ever. -- James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?" 13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/

James Coupe wrote: > In message <Pine.GSO.4.62.05...@peso.cs.duke.edu>, Ankur > Gupta <agu...@cs.duke.edu> writes: > >Allonzo isn't intended to be just the bestest vampire ever (that's > >Arika, for those not in the know), > > Grrr. How can that honour not go to Gratiano? Best. Vampire. Ever. I'm totally with you, James. John

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:41:10 -0500, Ankur Gupta <agu...@cs.duke.edu> wrote: >I'd much prefer if people actually looked at vampires positively as to >what they can do instead of what they can't. I'm sure it would have a >positive impact on the game. I completely agree. I see him for what he is: a OBF SER 6-cap - which we didn't have until KMW - who can get Serpentis actions through a little easier, and probably has some actions to add that require his "clan". To counter, he doesn't have Presence, so you should prepare for that if using him. Sounds fair. If I want to play PRE/SER/OBF with a lot of Majesties, Temptations and stealth, I'd play group 2/3 Setites without him - and would have to build for another problem, the overall high crypt I'd have to use to get the most of these disciplines. >To get on a soapbox, I think it's quite clear that the trend for V:TES is >to allow for (and I could possibly argue "move towards") decks which >toolbox. Things like "Instead of X copies of card Y, play X-2 copies of Y >and 2 copies of Z". My best example is that of Stunt Cycle vs. Thrown >Sewer Lid which does just that. But there are many others. Agreed. Moving towards toolbox is necessary - given the ever increasing possibilities the game has now, and the fact that you can't rely on doing the same thing over and over as new counter cards get released. >There are quite a number of cards (and vampires!) which are making this >subtle movement. Movements which make analyzing the game more difficult, >allow players to include secondary effects to a main strategy which may >play heavily in a particular game, lessening the opportunity cost of the >cards themselves, and adding supporting library cards such that someone >can actually *include* this wealth of new cards. To bring the point back >around, Allonzo serves the purpose of opening up library slots for >something other than stealth. This is good since you know, stealth doesn't >do stuff on its own. It enables doing stuff. >And Allonzo is all about doing stuff. >At +1 stealth even. >Ankur Gupta >Prince of West Lafayette best, Fabio "Sooner" Macedo V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil Giovanni Newsletter Editor ----------------------------------------------------- V:tES Brasil Site (only in Portuguese for now) http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/vtesbrasil/

>> Allonzo isn't intended to be just the bestest vampire ever (that's >> Arika, for those not in the know), > > Grrr. How can that honour not go to Gratiano? Best. Vampire. Ever. I think he forgot to turn in his application form in time. Deadline was around Dark Sovereigns. :) Ankur

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005, Ankur Gupta wrote: > Eh. I tend to think of it as a card-saving special, much like most other > specials (+1 strength being one of the easier to demonstrate as such). There > are quite a number of 0 or 1 stealth (serpentis) actions I'd love for my > vampires to take. And gosh, if I could run lighter on the stealth, I could > put in more of them. . . . WAIT! Here's a dude who does that! The only real problem there and the thing that makes Allonzo look a little less than spectacular to me (until we see those great clan cards he'll get) is that most Serpentis decks use Followers of Set who have an Opium Den. Sure, you have to draw it and it's subject to Disputed Territory, Kine Dominance, Arika, etc. (as Allonzo is subject to PTO, Graverobbing and Wynn), but if you have it out it's pretty nice. It gives your guys a stealth on Serpentis actions. Oh, and non-Serpentis actions too. Matt Morgan

"Ankur Gupta" <agu...@cs.duke.edu> wrote in message news:Pine.GSO.4.62.05...@peso.cs.duke.edu... >>>> Anyway, I don't find the fact that Alonzo has obfuscate to mitigate the >>>> value of the free stealth as much as the fact that it can only be used >>>> for serpentis actions. The latter is MUCH more to the point! >>> >>> Meh. If you're not using the stealth for serpentis actions, then there's >>> probably a better vampire for your crypt anyway. >> >> You sound as if you build decks where vampires _only_ _ever_ take >> serpentis actions. In fact, you sound as if you can build such a deck. >> You can not. Allonzo WILL take actions that aren't serpentis actions, > > Sure to the part about "you can not". But, in decks with serpentis > actions, you *can* make every effort (and I realize this next bit is a > limitation) to have him take the serpentis actions. Make all the effort you want, you won't be dictating the "efforts" your opponents and your decks make to the contrary. Your opponents have this tendency to play things like Paths and Powerbases and all sorts of damn things that make you want to take actions you hadn't designed the deck to take. And your library has to be pretty chock full of serpentis actions to prevent those periodic spells that will leave you without them several turns per game. More full than I think you'd want it to be. Anyway, my point was never to suggest it isn't a good idea to provide Serpentis actions for Allonzo to take. Just to say that +1 stealth on <DISCIPLINE> actions is signficantly less powerful than +1 stealth on all actions. > Your other guys do different things (bleed, diablerize, go make ham sandwiches, whatever) and Allonzo pushes through your > Serpentis stuff. For all intents and purposes, that's +1 stealth. Sorry, I just think it's naive to ever make that last statement. Unconditional +1 stealth is, for all intents and purposes, +1 stealth. <DISCIPLINE> +1 stealth never is. >> I don't care what you meant to use the stealth for. Each time he does, >> the limitation kicks in. That limitation WILL have an effect. And it >> will almost certainly mean more than the issue of whether he has >> obfuscate or not. > > I don't understand this paragraph at all. Just that the limitation to Allonzo's conditional stealth becomes significant to the extent you take non-serpentis actions. Because I assert that you will take plenty of non-serpentis actions with him no matter how you build your deck and no matter what you intend, the limitation is significant period. More significant than the issue of whether he already has a stealth discipline (obfuscate) or not (which is what David replied to David about that got me started). >> I don't think anyone will be able >> to judge what Allonzo is "intended to be" or not until (at least) we know >> what clan cards are available to him, if any. > > Forget clan cards. As he is *right now*, he's good enough. Didn't say he wasn't. But he might turn out to have some completely different uses than what (I'm guessing) you're envisioning right now. If so, he might not have quite as specialized a role in some decks, not that the role you're proposing for him is bad. > I don't expect abominations to be a real clan with lots of members floating all over the place. So his scarce penalty will > probably not be that big a deal. Scarce, obviously, doens't make him any worse than he'd be if he were just clanless - other than the trifling issue of using an Abomination library card. Sterile isn't much. Both come into play only if it ever becomes desirable to have multiple abominations. Thus, both might be a limit on future goodies (clan cards) applicable to the clan (that, for instance, we might find out about this upcoming Saturday). Additionally, scarce could become an issue if two or more Abomination vampires printed in consecutive groups or the same group are sufficiently similar or somehow symbiotic in a way that encourages players to use them together. In short, nothing we can see today makes either attribute problematic. They only limit the value of things we might discover and like about them in the future. Fred

Frederick Scott wrote: > Scarce, obviously, doens't make him any worse than he'd be if he were just > clanless - other than the trifling issue of using an Abomination library > card. While mostly, you are correct, there is the highly unlikely to be used Scarce Hoser from Gehenna that burns Scarce vampires, as well as a Stranger Humongous. If Scarcity was just the pool penalty, it is easy to make it a total non issue--if he is the only scarce vampire in your crypt, that particular card text gets to be erased from his card. But 'cause Stranger Humongous exists, he gets an easy to exploit edge (well, theoretically), and 'cause the hoser exists, there is a small chance of him just being burned, which is actually a bigger problem than Stranger Humongous is a bonus, making being Scarce, arguably, worse than just being clanless. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "How does this end?" "In fire." Emperor Turhan and Kosh

Ankur Gupta wrote: > > Typhonic Beast would be great if our Mr. Montoya only had Potence!!! I > > believe there is STILL not a single vampire able to play this card to > > full effect out of the box. Wouldn't a Werewolf/vampire be the perfect > > candidate to champion this card? Apparently NOT. > > Typhonic beast has a serpentis outferior. You can put him into a crypt > which runs potence/serpentis and he can still use the card until he gets > Hand of Conrad or a potence skill card. It's still quite great. Why would I want to pay a blood now just to not burn a blood to damage later? OK, so it helps prevent against Ivory Bow and Burst of Sunlight...big whup. If I trap, it could come in handy too I guess. But why not just give a Werewolf potence in the first place so you don't have to wait for the skill card? HE is a werewolf, that should mean combat...did you ever play the game? > > Skin of the Adder would be great too if there was some way to guarantee > > that your opponent won't play combat ends! I play Skin of the > > Adder....BEWARE MY SERPENTIS OF DOOM.....oh you Combat Ended. Great, > > why didn't I just play sneak and bleed with Serpentis? Hence the need > > for Celerity or preferable Potence.....even minor! > > Gee, does every combat deck ever need to beat combat ends? I mean like > every deck ever? What about poor animalism decks? Should I ignore all the > really good decks with animalism combat which completely sodomize vampires > (and win games)? Play to run them out. . . There's no *need* for such > things. They're nice, sure. But not strictly necessary. You want Allonzo > to be a beat machine in a particular fashion, and you're not seeing that > he already is. . . you just have to *think*. Every viable combat deck needs a way to circumvent combat ends! Sure its fun to build some wacky deck that *might* do something in combat someday, but I want viable constructed tournament alternatives. Skin of the Adder is NOT in this category, mainly because it has a double Superior that is cool, but NOT a SINGLE vamp can play without help! And animalism combat is based on weenies, plus all their cards are free, plus they usually pack stuff like Warghouls for support. > > The Jones counteracts combat ends..cool, but it requires you to be an > > older vampire. So I have to accept the fact that if I play 6 caps > > (like Allonso), I can only use it against 5 cap and below, or I play > > big vamps who have much better things to do than use The Jones, like > > Oh wait. There is a response to combat ends after all. . . but now we're > complaining that it isn't useful on all vampires. Gosh. Whatever shall we > do? So you can't torpor Arika with Allonzo; that's so unfair. I bet you > couldn't torpor Arika with any other deck either with as much gusto as > you'd like, due to the likelihood of obedience or fortitude prevent being > there as well. And if you could, well, now you have a deck that can't > actually get into combat with Arika because it probably doesn't have > stealth to hit the right minion. Or if you can do all of those things, you > probably can't oust reliably. Or if you can do all of *that*, then send me > a decklist. And I'm wrong. And I'm sorry. Allonzo is a werewolf...and should be a beat machine. Right now he has no chance of harming her. I just want to give him a chance. With potence he at least has a shot. And while I wait to get her, she votes and bleeds me out of the game. I don't want ANOTHER bleed vampire....I want a vampire that can be a combat threat using Serpentis. He, being a werewolf, should have been the best chance at getting that threat. Allonso is NOT just fine if Arika majesties...cause he most likey played cards that cost blood! > The key here is that no, you won't win any given particular combat with > Arika. But eventually, you'll get her. And when you do, it'll wreck his > game. On the other hand, with Arika majestying out all the time, Allonzo's > just *fine*. You can slap a perfectionist/blood doll on him, and suddenly, > he's bleeding for 1 (2 or more with revelations!), enticing (at stealth, > mind you), or rushing and gaining you pool at the same time. He really is > a horrible deal, huh? > Great I can gain all that intercept through retainers, only to NOT block cause Allonso can't block undirected actions! [ quoted text not captured ] Good point, perhaps Anarching out Allonso would be best. That way I wouldn't have to worry about Superiors. But come on, Superiors are where its at. Interesting is exactly what I want. But right now the only legitimate ways around combat ends are grapple and psyche....cause they are free!!! I was looking for a cool Serpentis combat deck to have a star. Allonso simply fails in that respect when he could have crowned the achievement. What's funny, is that I wouldn't even care if they had just used another name...but since they used a canon character...it comes with certain expectations.

Peter D Bakija wrote: > But 'cause Stranger Humongous exists, he gets an easy to exploit edge (well, > theoretically), and 'cause the hoser exists, there is a small chance of him > just being burned, which is actually a bigger problem than Stranger > Humongous is a bonus, making being Scarce, arguably, worse than just being > clanless. Mistrust will only burn him once he goes to torpor. Kinda like Vulnerability. Not sure the "bigger problem" assessment is warranted with regards to burning. Now if you meant to argue the added Banishment (non-burning) angle of Mistrust, well, that's different. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

tigernat1 wrote: > But why not just give a Werewolf potence in the first place so you > don't have to wait for the skill card? HE is a werewolf, that should > mean combat...did you ever play the game? [...] > What's funny, is that I wouldn't even care if they had just used > another name...but since they used a canon character...it comes with > certain expectations. Allonzo's "canon" stats are found in Warriors of the Apocalypse. Among them: Disciplines: Animalism 2, Auspex 3, Dominate 2, Obfuscate 4, [Potence 0], Serpentis 2 [ quoted text not captured ]

> Why would I want to pay a blood now just to not burn a blood to damage > later? OK, so it helps prevent against Ivory Bow and Burst of > Sunlight...big whup. If I trap, it could come in handy too I guess. > But why not just give a Werewolf potence in the first place so you > don't have to wait for the skill card? HE is a werewolf, that should > mean combat...did you ever play the game? > Every discipline has Combat Cards. His disciplines have some of the best - Carrion Crows, Aura Reading, Gemini's Mirror. Not every Werewolf is the supreme overlord of smackdown, especially Shadowlords. Shadowlords have BETTER things to do than tear your arms off.

> While mostly, you are correct, there is the highly unlikely to be used > Scarce Hoser from Gehenna that burns Scarce vampires, as well as a Stranger > Humongous. > Note that there are now TWO Scarce minions - of differing Clans - with obf ser in Group 2/3.

[ quoted text not captured ] And as far as I remember, Shadow Lords weren't that big in combat even in the Rage CCG. Everytime I saw someone trying some pack attack strategy - the main strategy for quick killings, at least in my metagame at the time - it was based on Get of Fenris or Red Talons. But again, we never got past Umbra except for me, who tried a few Wyrm for the fun factor. I can't find the Allonzo card in here now, so someone more well versed on the game could share his thoughs on him on combat and the options available for the Shadow Lords? (gifts, allies and such) best, Fabio "Sooner" Macedo V:TES National Coordinator for Brazil Giovanni Clan Newsletter Editor [ quoted text not captured ]

Fabio "Sooner" wrote: > I can't find the Allonzo card in here now, so someone more well versed > on the game could share his thoughs on him on combat and the options > available for the Shadow Lords? (gifts, allies and such) Allonzo Montoya Rage card spoiler (from http://www.littlebearslore.com/text/ra/rage3.txt): Allonzo Montoya Abomination Homid Character Crinos Beast-of-War Male Ren:9 R:5/10 G:6/6 H:7/10 Regen: Y Phase: Wyrm Rarity: R Artist: Jeff Miracola Text: Allonzo is a werewolf who has been turned into a vampire. Thoroughly insane, he now serves the Wyrm. Allonzo can use Shadow Lord, Metis and Black Spiral Dancer Gifts. He cannot be alpha 2 turns in a row. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > Mistrust will only burn him once he goes to torpor. > Kinda like Vulnerability. Yeah, see, if I could remember the name of the card, I'd probably, like, have remembered that :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:44:46 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >Fabio "Sooner" wrote: >> I can't find the Allonzo card in here now, so someone more well versed >> on the game could share his thoughs on him on combat and the options >> available for the Shadow Lords? (gifts, allies and such) > >Allonzo Montoya Rage card spoiler (from >http://www.littlebearslore.com/text/ra/rage3.txt): > >Allonzo Montoya Abomination Homid >Character Crinos Beast-of-War >Male Ren:9 R:5/10 G:6/6 H:7/10 Regen: Y > Phase: Wyrm Rarity: R > Artist: Jeff Miracola >Text: Allonzo is a werewolf who has been turned into a vampire. Thoroughly > insane, he now serves the Wyrm. Allonzo can use Shadow Lord, Metis and > Black Spiral Dancer Gifts. He cannot be alpha 2 turns in a row. Thanks! Geez, strictly seing his basic stats, he's powerful - Rage 10 and Health 10 in Crinos form is nothing to sneeze at, and he Regenerates, something most Wyrm characters don't. What I can't remember is - which gifts the Shadow Lords have available - which Metis gifts exists besides those that avoid combat (Burrow and such) I remember that Black Spiral Dancers gifts are not that good compared to the ones available to the main Gaia clans. Sorry for going that off-topic, but I'm still too curious and subscribing for a Rage forum/mailing list just for that information is too much of a hassle. I just want to get a grip if he's a combat monster in Rage or not. Never had the chance to play him... [ quoted text not captured ]

So I guess library cards will have to simulate his werewolf nature since his card text and disciplines do not. I read in Vamp:Masquerade (I believe) that every werewolf can be considered to have certain dots in disciplines (like celerity, potence and fortitude) when using them in Vampire chronicles to simulate their werewolf abilities and how bad ass they were. I guess I was expecting this sort of thing for the CCG also. Even +1 strength would have given a nod to this concept! Or some weird ability like "he gains 1 blood each round of combat after the first if he took damage in the previous round." Ya know some sort of regeneration effect. I'll shut up about it now. Though there still needs to be a vamp who can play double superior Typhonic Beast out of the crypt! [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > Allonzo's "canon" stats are found in Warriors of the Apocalypse. > > Among them: > > Disciplines: > Animalism 2, Auspex 3, Dominate 2, Obfuscate 4, [Potence 0], Serpentis 2 Since we're down this road, what are Ul-Shulgi's canon stats? =) --Colin McGuigan

> The only real problem there and the thing that makes Allonzo look a > little less than spectacular to me (until we see those great clan cards > he'll get) is that most Serpentis decks use Followers of Set who have an > Opium Den. Sure, you have to draw it and it's subject to Disputed I think the drawing it is a non-trivial cost. I mean, hell, even 4/80 = 1/20 = 5% (for a single draw, of course) is less often than a single crypt card coming up. And that's assuming that you've really built your deck towards getting the Opium Den. (Now, I know that the math is wrong, but I'm too lazy to do it correctly right now. I hope you get the point. It would end up working once I did it anyway.) > Territory, Kine Dominance, Arika, etc. (as Allonzo is subject to PTO, > Graverobbing and Wynn), but if you have it out it's pretty nice. It > gives your guys a stealth on Serpentis actions. Oh, and non-Serpentis > actions too. Given the above comment, I think it's quite reasonable to think that it's useful. . . . Again, it's a card-saving special, and it's not a trivial one. Many actions you'd take by putting him into a deck are Serpentis actions. Ankur

In article <1108488732....@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, tigernat1 wrote: > I am so dissappointed in Allonzo. In the Rage card game this guy was > big and scary. What is he doing with Serpentis? He is a werewolf for > f**k's sake!!! Let's see: In rage a pack of werewolves were really scary. In vtes however: Werewolf Pack Unique Werewolf with 3 life, 3 strength, 0 bleed. Werewolf Pack is not affected by damage from melee weapons. Compared to a pack of werewolves, this Allonzo guy is a menace. -- Sator Ukko 333=11 Occu Rotas

>> Sure to the part about "you can not". But, in decks with serpentis >> actions, you *can* make every effort (and I realize this next bit is a >> limitation) to have him take the serpentis actions. > > Make all the effort you want, you won't be dictating the "efforts" your > opponents and your decks make to the contrary. Your opponents have this > tendency to play things like Paths and Powerbases and all sorts of damn > things that make you want to take actions you hadn't designed the deck And you don't think that any of your other vampires could/would do those things? Again, the point isn't that he would never take a non-serpentis action. . . just that for all practical purposes it can act that way. Not every vampire in the crypt must necessarily be built to do the same thing. > to take. And your library has to be pretty chock full of serpentis > actions to prevent those periodic spells that will leave you without > them several turns per game. More full than I think you'd want it to > be. I absolutely disagree. Chuck about 10-15 serpentis actions into a deck and you're golden. You'll draw into at least one a turn most likely. And between the Enticements, Form of Corruptions, Temptations, Corruptions, Reformations, and Edge Vitiation, that seems not too difficult. If you've built a deck that actually burns blood off of guys, well, you have a definite series of things you can do with Consignment to Duat and others. I don't think I'd have any trouble slotting them in. And the deck would do well also. Hell, even Canopic Jar doesn't necessarily suck. . . . > Anyway, my point was never to suggest it isn't a good idea to provide > Serpentis actions for Allonzo to take. Just to say that +1 stealth on > <DISCIPLINE> actions is signficantly less powerful than +1 stealth on > all actions. "Significantly" is what we're arguing here. It's not nearly as significant in this particular case with Allonzo and serpentis actions. Broad sweeping generalizations? Sure, maybe, though even then I don't concede the point. I really don't think of it as something you have to build around. His inclusion *necessitates* that you'd be taking certain types of actions. Many, if not all, of those actions require serpentis. >> Your other guys do different things (bleed, diablerize, go make ham >> sandwiches, whatever) and Allonzo pushes through your Serpentis stuff. >> For all intents and purposes, that's +1 stealth. > > Sorry, I just think it's naive to ever make that last statement. > Unconditional +1 stealth is, for all intents and purposes, +1 stealth. > <DISCIPLINE> +1 stealth never is. I think it's naive to consider that a deck with Allonzo would not have enough Serpentis actions that he couldn't take one each turn. For the general discipline template that you seem keen to inject into this discussion, I can't comment. It's different for every vampire. "For all intents and purposes" is a phrase which implies that they are not equivalent. But they're pretty damned close to the same in this instance. You still haven't really refuted that. . . . >> I don't understand this paragraph at all. > > Just that the limitation to Allonzo's conditional stealth becomes > significant to the extent you take non-serpentis actions. Because I > assert that you will take plenty of non-serpentis actions with him no > matter how you build your deck and no matter what you intend, the > limitation is significant period. More significant than the issue of > whether he already has a stealth discipline (obfuscate) or not (which is > what David replied to David about that got me started). I have given you pretty good reason to believe that he will, in fact, be taking serpentis actions in decks which he is included in. Do you have some sort of counter-example? Because I'm not seeing such an example where Allonzo *must* take such actions. >> Forget clan cards. As he is *right now*, he's good enough. > > Didn't say he wasn't. But he might turn out to have some completely > different uses than what (I'm guessing) you're envisioning right now. > If so, he might not have quite as specialized a role in some decks, not > that the role you're proposing for him is bad. Well, the role I'm proposing for him is enough to justify his +1 stealth as meaningful enough to be considered worth 1 point. > Scarce, obviously, doens't make him any worse than he'd be if he were > just clanless - other than the trifling issue of using an Abomination > library card. Sterile isn't much. Both come into play only if it ever > becomes desirable to have multiple abominations. Thus, both might be a > limit on future goodies (clan cards) applicable to the clan (that, for > instance, we might find out about this upcoming Saturday). > Additionally, scarce could become an issue if two or more Abomination > vampires printed in consecutive groups or the same group are > sufficiently similar or somehow symbiotic in a way that encourages > players to use them together. In short, nothing we can see today makes > either attribute problematic. They only limit the value of things we > might discover and like about them in the future. Fine. But I think his benefit far out-weighs his negative. Ankur

> Every discipline has Combat Cards. His disciplines have some of the best > - Carrion Crows, Aura Reading, Gemini's Mirror. Not every Werewolf is > the supreme overlord of smackdown, especially Shadowlords. Shadowlords > have BETTER things to do than tear your arms off. Like suck your soul. But they can beat you if you really really want. :) Ankur

> Why would I want to pay a blood now just to not burn a blood to damage > later? OK, so it helps prevent against Ivory Bow and Burst of > Sunlight...big whup. If I trap, it could come in handy too I guess. Well, you gave two pretty decent reasons. They're not great, but they exist. Trap combat is what you'll be doing, so perpetual damage prevention seems good. And I gave a reason too -- he's pretty good in a pot/ser deck even without pot since he can play Skin of the Adder. And since you're including skill cards *anyway*, he can claim one of them for his own as they come up. > But why not just give a Werewolf potence in the first place so you don't > have to wait for the skill card? HE is a werewolf, that should mean > combat...did you ever play the game? My point really has nothing to do with anything else. . . only this: he is ready for combat with just SER/ani. > Every viable combat deck needs a way to circumvent combat ends! Sure I love broad sweeping generalizations. . . Look. There are lots and lots and lots of animalism decks that do well, and they have *no* response to combat ends in general. > its fun to build some wacky deck that *might* do something in combat > someday, but I want viable constructed tournament alternatives. Skin of > the Adder is NOT in this category, mainly because it has a double > Superior that is cool, but NOT a SINGLE vamp can play without help! And > animalism combat is based on weenies, plus all their cards are free, > plus they usually pack stuff like Warghouls for support. Not all animalism combat is based on weenies. Those combat decks also do well. Animalism combat has no prevention. Animalism combat cannot perform under being grappled itself. And I have no idea where this "usually packed Warghouls" thing comes from. . . I mean, geez. That's a rare sight. I could point to protean combat. . . also no response to combat ends. It does fine. You just have to know how to run someone out of their defenses. And I gave you *several* ways to do that without pot/cel in my previous post. > Allonzo is a werewolf...and should be a beat machine. Right now he has > no chance of harming her. I just want to give him a chance. With He is a beat machine with ani/SER. When a 6 cap can't torpor an 11 cap, I don't cry. Granted, Arika may be really strong or whatever, but I won't argue with Allonzo not being able to torpor Arika. > potence he at least has a shot. And while I wait to get her, she votes > and bleeds me out of the game. I don't want ANOTHER bleed vampire....I > want a vampire that can be a combat threat using Serpentis. He, being a > werewolf, should have been the best chance at getting that threat. > Allonso is NOT just fine if Arika majesties...cause he most likey played > cards that cost blood! Why, didn't you give him murder of crows? > Great I can gain all that intercept through retainers, only to NOT block > cause Allonso can't block undirected actions! So he can't block Arika. Maybe one of your other vampires blocks her and Allonzo just rushes? What about considering Gilbert Duane? Or Cock Robin? Do these large vampires not count when considering torporing them? Why is Arika the benchmark all the time? A deck that can't torpor Arika 90% of the time can't win or something? And again, it's not a whole deck that can't torpor Arika, it's just Allonzo. . . . > Good point, perhaps Anarching out Allonso would be best. That way I > wouldn't have to worry about Superiors. But come on, Superiors are > where its at. Interesting is exactly what I want. But right now the > only legitimate ways around combat ends are grapple and psyche....cause Also rushing lots. Also blocking and taking cards out. Also doing a number with their hand and Border Skirmish. Also Revelations. Also Chiram's Hold. Also Thoughts Betrayed. Also Telepathic Tracking. Also the Jones. . . . Also giving Allonzo Creep Show to make the best of a bad situation. If you insist on pot/cel, also giving Drum of Xipe/Hand of Conrad. > they are free!!! I was looking for a cool Serpentis combat deck to have > a star. Allonso simply fails in that respect when he could have crowned > the achievement. I think your definition of "star" is too attached to old thoughts on the game. Pot/cel are good. Always have been. Not the only way to play combat. > What's funny, is that I wouldn't even care if they had just used another > name...but since they used a canon character...it comes with certain > expectations. That's a reasonable feeling. But asserting that he's not a beat machine, well, just isn't, in my view. Ankur

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:20:54 -0600, Colin McGuigan <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] iirc, it can be paraphrased as 'yer dead'. :P salem http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote: > Note that there are now TWO Scarce minions - of differing Clans - with obf > ser in Group 2/3. I was thinking Allonzo might be good friends with Synesios, especially with Anarch Secession so that they can both start Reforming and Corrupting (and of course there's also Principia). Might be fun, especially if the Abomination clan cards allow Allonzo to do some serious beatdown as well. --CV

[ quoted text not captured ] I don't know any Ul-Shulgi. In an unrelated topic, ur-Shulgi's stats are given as: Disciplines: Auspex 8, Obfuscate 9, Quietus 9, Thaumaturgy 9; others unknown [ quoted text not captured ]

Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote: > Note that there are now TWO Scarce minions - of differing Clans - with obf > ser in Group 2/3. I have never used more than a single copy of Synesios in my Follower of Set decks. Why? Summon the Serpent. The FoS have crypt construction options that other clans can't match. This is why Kementiri (adv) is the most mergeable vampire ever, and why you don't need to spend $20 on ebay for a second copy of Sutekh the Dark God. 2/3 Serpentis is getting a real boost from this set. 3/4 Serpentis will have a tough act to follow.

LSJ wrote: > I don't know any Ul-Shulgi. It's Ur-Shulgi's twin brother. You were introduced at the WW Christmas party last year. He's hurt you don't remember him. > In an unrelated topic, ur-Shulgi's stats are given as: > Disciplines: Auspex 8, Obfuscate 9, Quietus 9, Thaumaturgy 9; others > unknown Mmm. Inferior auspex. (Can't complain overly. The DOM is nice. But, going by canon stats...) --Colin McGuigan

[ quoted text not captured ] in the path of blood forum, someone - who i believe is the one who designed Ur-Shulgi for VTES, since he claimed so and all those people REALLY into Assamites there that would probably jump on the guy if he wasn´t serious about this bit of info. too bad i don´t remember the name of the guy! - said that when designing Ur-Shulgi, he took into account sinergy. so a few of the disciplines there were placed to grant that he could be used with almost every single deck you wanted based on assamites, even those not really using exclusively CEL QUI OBF... probably aus came as a price for that sinergy. cheers Luciano "Baital" de Sampaio VEKN Anarch Baron de Curitiba VEKN Baali Clan Newsletter Editor