Running my first tournament

Hi, I'm planning to organise my first tournament soon. It will be a draft for many players don't have a lot of card and I want them to have equal chances of victory. What I ask for is maybe some tips or advice. - how many booster should I use - Anything you judge useful - I will use Gehenna booster, is that a good idea? Thanks

>- how many booster should I use 9-10, probably. Less, unless you allow people to bring cards, has problems with people finding enough cards to fill out decks. More has the obvious problems of expense and additional time. I'd guess that people would eventually get bored of drafting more and more cards, though when that threshold is hit isn't at all clear as I don't specifically recall a draft above 10 and have my doubts about anyone doing one with more than 12. >- Anything you judge useful Do you want to use any mechanic to prevent rare drafting? I run into this problem all the time with locals. The players want protection from rare drafting even when they have vast collections, a lot of rares aren't worth much, and rare drafting tends to hurt fielding a better deck. I don't care that much about a "keep the rare" rule, but it does reduce strategy somewhat while only protecting people who cracked good rares. There are some differences in the types of drafts. Usually we Rochester (table draft) vampires and booster draft library afterwards. There are various fiddly things you have to make calls on at times. For straight booster, you need to make sure that people realize they need enough vampires to fill out a crypt. For drafting separate piles of cards, you run into nonequal amounts. To avoid problems, you want to make sure there are no packs in error - too few cards, too many, whatever - and otherwise be prepared for procedural, logistical, and whatnot potential issues. Time can be a problem. Drafting isn't quick and some people won't necessarily be prepared going in. One of the reasons I never understood drafting at prereleases is having people either not know what the cards do or having them waste a bunch of time finding out. It's a lot better when your players don't have to read the cards for the first time, and this can be avoided by having people look up cards prior to the draft. Not that this is the only way players can be underprepared, but it's more common than I'd like. >- I will use Gehenna booster, is that a good idea? All Gehenna? That doesn't sound like a good idea. SW and CE (and Jyhad/V:TES and Sabbat) are good to include to some degree just so there are some basic cards in the pool so that people's decks aren't completely goofy, but it likely depends upon your players. Whatever they will find fun is a good idea. It doesn't seem like there's any perfect combination with Gehenna. Gehenna has cards that reward playing the Sabbat exclusive and independent exclusive disciplines, and there's problems finding other sets that work well with that feature.

cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20040828173631...@mb-m06.aol.com>... > >- how many booster should I use > > 9-10, probably. Less, unless you allow people to bring cards, has problems > with people finding enough cards to fill out decks. More has the obvious > problems of expense and additional time. I'd guess that people would > eventually get bored of drafting more and more cards, though when that > threshold is hit isn't at all clear as I don't specifically recall a draft > above 10 and have my doubts about anyone doing one with more than 12. I'll go for 10 > > >- Anything you judge useful > > Do you want to use any mechanic to prevent rare drafting? I run into this > problem all the time with locals. The players want protection from rare > drafting even when they have vast collections, a lot of rares aren't worth > much, and rare drafting tends to hurt fielding a better deck. I don't care > that much about a "keep the rare" rule, but it does reduce strategy somewhat > while only protecting people who cracked good rares. Hum... I understand the problem but if a player draft all the rare, his deck will suffer from it, his winning chance will decrease... Anyway how have you solve this, what do you mean by protecting rare, drafting them apart, limiting the number of rare that a player can draft? > > There are some differences in the types of drafts. Usually we Rochester (table > draft) vampires and booster draft library afterwards. There are various fiddly > things you have to make calls on at times. For straight booster, you need to > make sure that people realize they need enough vampires to fill out a crypt. > For drafting separate piles of cards, you run into nonequal amounts. will draft crypt and then library, is that the right sequence. I think is better to make a crypt and then go fro a library, right? > > To avoid problems, you want to make sure there are no packs in error - too few > cards, too many, whatever - and otherwise be prepared for procedural, > logistical, and whatnot potential issues. > > Time can be a problem. Drafting isn't quick and some people won't necessarily > be prepared going in. One of the reasons I never understood drafting at > prereleases is having people either not know what the cards do or having them > waste a bunch of time finding out. It's a lot better when your players don't > have to read the cards for the first time, and this can be avoided by having > people look up cards prior to the draft. Not that this is the only way players > can be underprepared, but it's more common than I'd like. it will always be > > >- I will use Gehenna booster, is that a good idea? > > All Gehenna? That doesn't sound like a good idea. SW and CE (and Jyhad/V:TES > and Sabbat) are good to include to some degree just so there are some basic > cards in the pool so that people's decks aren't completely goofy, but it likely > depends upon your players. Whatever they will find fun is a good idea. what about 5 SW and 5 Gehenna or 5 anarch and 5 Gehenna or better forget about gehenna [ quoted text not captured ]

> > >- how many booster should I use > > > > 9-10, probably. I agree. If it is a non-snactioned tournament and your players have problems with the money, you could include cards from starters. But tell the players, what starters used, because you will have different disciplines. (Using BH starters for example, there is no FOR). > > Do you want to use any mechanic to prevent rare drafting? I run into this > > problem all the time with locals. The best mechanic is big prizes for the first players. If you win a half display, you will not draft bad rares. Simple. > Hum... I understand the problem but if a player draft all the rare, > his deck will suffer from it, his winning chance will decrease... My argument. > Anyway how have you solve this, what do you mean by protecting rare, > drafting them apart, limiting the number of rare that a player can > draft? To complicated IMO. > > There are some differences in the types of drafts. Usually we Rochester (table > > draft) vampires and booster draft library afterwards. We always use pure booster draft. Its the fastest solution, needs the most skill and gives the most fun. All theoretical problems discussed (example, a player hasnt drafted 12 Vampires), will not happen in reality. > > Time can be a problem. Drafting isn't quick and some people won't necessarily > > be prepared going in. You need a clock. First five cards of a booster 45 seconds, after that 30 seconds. > > >- I will use Gehenna booster, is that a good idea? You need boosters from a basic set (Jyhad, Sabbat, SW, CE) or some starters with basic disciplines. Some boosters from strange strange expansions are always fun. I would say for example 5 SW, 3 BH and 1 Gehenna would be nice. An additional advice: The first playing round should not be identical with the drafting pod. So you will have no problem with counter drafting.

On 28 Aug 2004, Archon wrote: > Hum... I understand the problem but if a player draft all the rare, > his deck will suffer from it, his winning chance will decrease... > Anyway how have you solve this, what do you mean by protecting rare, > drafting them apart, limiting the number of rare that a player can > draft? Some draft tournaments allow players to pick two cards from the first pack. That way, you can take the rare and take something good for your deck. Or if your rare is Twisting the Knife (as it so often is), you can take two cards that are good for your deck. I've done it both ways and while I don't have a strong preference, I did pass a Shroud of Absence at one of the GenCon drafts and my deck still sucked and got nothing done. Regret! I could've had a terrible draft deck and a Shroud of Absence. Instead all I ended up with is a terrible draft deck. Matt Morgan

Curevei wrote: > Do you want to use any mechanic to prevent rare drafting? I run into this > problem all the time with locals. The players want protection from rare > drafting even when they have vast collections, a lot of rares aren't worth > much, and rare drafting tends to hurt fielding a better deck. I don't care > that much about a "keep the rare" rule, but it does reduce strategy somewhat > while only protecting people who cracked good rares. Do you really run into Rare Drafting as a problem? I mean, like, people are concerened about it? That is weird. I mean you completely articulate why people shouldn't care (most rares not worth anything, really; it is often counter productive to making a good deck, whatever), and in my experience, people tend to not care. How much do people care, do you find, and what do you do about it? Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "Mr. President, ask not what your rest home can do for you. Ask what you can do for your rest home." -Elvis

>Do you really run into Rare Drafting as a problem? I mean, like, people are >concerened about it? That is weird. I mean you completely articulate why >people shouldn't care (most rares not worth anything, really; it is often >counter productive to making a good deck, whatever), and in my experience, >people tend to not care. How much do people care, do you find, and what do >you do about it? I know at least one person who rare drafts, but it's not rare drafting that's the problem; it's people thinking that rare drafting will happen and/or not wanting to lose out in some way by giving up rares that is the basis for the desire for protection. Even locals with lots of cards don't necessarily track what is rare or how valuable a particular rare is (lack of appraisal skill). I think it's a fear out of lack of knowledge. If you know something is particularly valuable, you can rare draft it without needing protection. If not sufficiently valuable, then you can focus on your deck instead in the absence of protection. If something is much more valuable to you than the other drafters, you can end up with it without protection but not with. Etc. Again, IMO, protection only helps people who crack *good* rares; it actually dumbs down the process by not rewarding people who focus on putting together a good deck. If you crack a War Ghoul or whatever, well, rare draft - plenty of rare drafting goes on in Magic where the rewards for winning tend to be much higher. (Course, Magic has an easy fix in pick up drafts in that you can draft playing for the rares as prizes, something I doubt would go over that well with V:TES.) The rule we've used at least a couple of times is that, when you open the packs, the rare is removed and retained. It's not at all complicated or difficult. BTW, I don't at all think giving a big top prize is desirable. Someone selectively rare drafting might still win and anyone who doesn't win still has the same incentive to rare draft, possibly more. Not that I think this is the biggest issue in the world. Our greatest problems involving draft are such things as the lack of desire to spend money on cards you don't want and the extra time required which rules out certain locations or start times.

>> > >- I will use Gehenna booster, is that a good idea? > >You need boosters from a basic set (Jyhad, Sabbat, SW, CE) or some >starters with basic disciplines. Some boosters from strange strange >expansions are always fun. I would say for example 5 SW, 3 BH and 1 >Gehenna would be nice. Replying to the other post, I think 5/5 SW/G is fine to try. I wasn't trying to give the idea that Gehenna should be minimized or avoided which may have come through. Though, 5/5 Anarchs/G is probably going to be a bit odd and maybe should be avoided if you aren't into odd. >An additional advice: The first playing round should not be identical >with the drafting pod. So you will have no problem with counter >drafting. Right. We randomize for draft pods, then we randomize for first round seating positions. Well, more technically, I determine player number (randomly) which affects round seating using the optimal seating chart and randomize for draft pods.

"Archon" <mbou...@archonsoft.com> wrote in message news:8905a224.04082...@posting.google.com... > cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message > news:<20040828173631...@mb-m06.aol.com>... > > >- Anything you judge useful > > > > Do you want to use any mechanic to prevent rare drafting? I run > > into this problem all the time with locals. The players want > > protection from rare drafting even when they have vast > > collections, a lot of rares aren't worth much, and rare drafting > > tends to hurt fielding a better deck. I don't care that much > > about a "keep the rare" rule, but it does reduce strategy > > somewhat while only protecting people who cracked good rares. > > Hum... I understand the problem but if a player draft all the rare, > his deck will suffer from it, his winning chance will decrease... > Anyway how have you solve this, what do you mean by protecting > rare, drafting them apart, limiting the number of rare that a > player can draft? You are exactly correct. So you can hear an alternate opinion, I feel Curevei's concerns are overstated. Granted, I don't play that much draft myself but in the time I've played Magic and Jyhad (since pretty much the beginning of Magic), I haven't run across many people who are very concerned about rare drafting. This is a situation where some people REALLY hate it for some reason and those folks complain a lot. But the majority don't seem to care that much. I believe most people react like you do. For me, the choice to draft a prize rare that drops to me is fun. Sometimes you get kind of interesting choices between the neat rare and a good card for the tournament and that's fine. It almost never happens that a choice turns out to be critical in my experience. (That is, I've never had to choose between an absolute "God" draft deck card and a prize rare.) Besides, I've never heard anyone propose a good rule to avoid this. The only one worth considering is the keep-your-own-rare rule and even this doesn't address important uncommons you'd like to keep because they're good constructed cards. Any other mechanism I've heard people talk about are solutions that are far worse than the problem. Fred

Frederick Scott wrote: > Besides, I've never heard anyone propose a good rule to avoid this. > The only one worth considering is the keep-your-own-rare rule and > even this doesn't address important uncommons you'd like to keep > because they're good constructed cards. Any other mechanism I've > heard people talk about are solutions that are far worse than the > problem. While I am in no way concerened with Rare Drafting in draft play, or whatever, the best solution (assuming one is necessary for whatever reason) I have seen mentioned is simply "take 2 cards from the pack you open"--you can then take the rare and another good card for play. Or if the rare is bad and you don't care, you can take 2 good cards for play. Strikes me as a very reasonable solution that doesn't actually specifically address the Rare Draft issue certainly fixes it and gives people who are drafting to make good decks and don't care about rares extra good options. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <BD58F8BB.19290%pd...@lightlink.com>, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> mumbled something about: >Frederick Scott wrote: > >> Besides, I've never heard anyone propose a good rule to avoid this. Honestly, I've never even heard a good reason as to why it's a problem. Assume you (generic 'you', not you, fred) have a draft consisting of ten boosters. You paid for ten rares. You open ten packs first; you have the option to draft those ten rares, presto, you have ten rares. "Oh! Oh!", but you say. "But if I draft this Up Yours!, then I will not be able to take the Blood Doll that will help me build a better deck that I can use to win the tournament!" Yep, by golly, you must make this decision ALL BY YOURSELF. And someone else surely may draft the Up Yours! as it is passed around, and since everyone else ALWAYS drafts their own rares first shot (since they NEVER open packs with Blood Dolls in them), all the rares will be gone and you will be SCREWED OUT OF A RARE OMG LOL UNFAIR NOOO!!!111 However, you will have a better chance of winning the tournament, and last I saw most tournaments had at least one booster pack for first place, often more, so you will still get a nice shiny matching rare. Besides, think of it this way; if the person to your left/right ALSO rare-drafts, then you can have his Blood Doll instead. And if he doesn't, then you can just take his rare and hey, guess what: you break even. Everyone else has to make the same decision you do, and someone who exclusively rare-drafts is going to hurt their own chances of winning. V:TES is simply not a rare-intensive game -- I can get much further with 10x Aura of Invincibility, for example, than I can with 10x Flash Grenade. (I may have the exact rarity wrong, but you get the idea.) So if you run into people who are all up in arms about rare-drafting, just pat them on the head and say "if you're so worried, take it yourself." -- Derek a host is a host from coast to coast and no one will talk to a host that's close unless the host that isn't close is busy, hung, or dead

"Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote in message news:<nQJYc.62698$yh.12926@fed1read05>... > "Archon" <mbou...@archonsoft.com> wrote in message > news:8905a224.04082...@posting.google.com... > > cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message > > news:<20040828173631...@mb-m06.aol.com>... > > > Do you want to use any mechanic to prevent rare drafting? > > > > Hum... I understand the problem but if a player draft all the rare, > > his deck will suffer from it, his winning chance will decrease... > > Anyway how have you solve this, what do you mean by protecting > > rare, drafting them apart, limiting the number of rare that a > > player can draft? > > Besides, I've never heard anyone propose a good rule to avoid this. > The only one worth considering is the keep-your-own-rare rule and > even this doesn't address important uncommons you'd like to keep > because they're good constructed cards. Any other mechanism I've > heard people talk about are solutions that are far worse than the > problem. One mechanism I have played with in draft is the person who opens the pack keeps *two* cards, then afterward only one card per pack is kept. This gives each person the opportunity to keep their rare if they want, or they can pass it along if they don't find it useful for their deck. This solution I think tends to minimize the complaining about rare-drafting, and not significantly affect the power of cards that people do draft. Jeff

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:BD58F8BB.19290%pd...@lightlink.com... > Frederick Scott wrote: > > > Besides, I've never heard anyone propose a good rule to avoid > > this. The only one worth considering is the keep-your-own-rare > > rule and even this doesn't address important uncommons you'd > > like to keep because they're good constructed cards. Any other > > mechanism I've heard people talk about are solutions that are > > far worse than the problem. > > While I am in no way concerened with Rare Drafting in draft play, > or whatever, the best solution (assuming one is necessary for > whatever reason) I have seen mentioned is simply "take 2 cards > from the pack you open"--you can then take the rare and another > good card for play. Or if the rare is bad and you don't care, you > can take 2 good cards for play. Strikes me as a very reasonable > solution that doesn't actually specifically address the Rare > Draft issue certainly fixes it and gives people who are drafting > to make good decks and don't care about rares extra good options. Huh? That sounds like...drafting two cards. That's it? Your big solution is to draft *two* cards the first time you choose from the pack you opened instead of one? I'll say one for it: it doesn't require a lot of explanation other than, "Why are we bothering with this?" How 'bout we just take the rare card out of the pack we open - if we want it, or the best play card if we don't - and then we can choose the second best card out of our neighbor's pack? That requires even _less_ explanation. Fred

Frederick Scott wrote: > Huh? That sounds like...drafting two cards. That's it? Your big > solution is to draft *two* cards the first time you choose from > the pack you opened instead of one? Umm, yeah? I mean, assuming that the Rare Draft issue is a problem (I can't imagine that it ever would be, but if, like, you have a group of people who really have it stuck in their craw that they might get screwed out of a rare in draft that they don't want to play, or whatever), just draft 2 cards out of the pack you open. If you want the rare and another card, take the rare. If you want 2 good draft cards, take those and screw the rare. > > I'll say one for it: it doesn't require a lot of explanation > other than, "Why are we bothering with this?" How 'bout we just > take the rare card out of the pack we open - if we want it, or > the best play card if we don't - and then we can choose the second > best card out of our neighbor's pack? That requires even _less_ > explanation. Sure. Or, you could just ignore the whole thing and take one card out of each pack. But assuming someone is upset about Rare Drafting, using the "take 2 cards out of the pack you open" lets people take their rare and then another good card. If you just make someone take the rare first, people who are playing to actually win the tournament are going to be pissed 'cause they open their pack, see a Blood Doll, and are forced to take the Up Yours!, even though they just want the Blood Doll. If people make an issue out of it, let them take 2 cards. The "I don't wanna be screwed by rare drafting!" people don't feel put out, and the "I wanna win the game" people feel like they aren't hosed by the rare draft fear people. [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Some simple but true things I think it is as simple as that. You'll open nine boosters, draft either YOUR rares or not, depending on your personnal preferences, and assume it like a man. there is no need to argue here

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> a écrit dans le message de news:BD593F7A.192A6%pd...@lightlink.com... > Sure. Or, you could just ignore the whole thing and take one card out of > each pack. But assuming someone is upset about Rare Drafting, (...) If someone is upset about rare drafting, maybe they should play sealed deck tournaments instead of drafts. Drafts are not for the faint hearted =)

"Jeff Kuta" <jeff...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:621dd332.0408...@posting.google.com... > This solution I think tends to minimize the complaining about > rare-drafting, and not significantly affect the power of cards that > people do draft. Rare drafter vs Wise drafter "Hey Raredrafter how was your tournament ? -miserable... i played 3 very boring games. I had no real crypt cohesion, and didnt manage to focus on the disciplines i wanted when i drafted. I just lost like 6 hours of my life and got a headache. Fortunately, i managed to bring back home 1 blood puppy, 1 true faith, 1 changeling ward,and some other rares.... Guess it was worth my 10 bucks fee." "Howdy Wise drafter ! How did you perform ? -i was in the final, again, but this time i won ! During the draft I picked my vamps as soon as i could and managed to have a dozen really good vamps, half of them titled (it helped for diableries). I had some pool gain in the form of 4th tradition (i know, no one plays that !) and consanguineous boon which helped me a lot and kept one other player alive at some point just to help me snatch a vp. The permanents i had greatly improved my game. I think i was extremely lucky, because it was just like a dream : i had those two guys near me who kept giving me all the stuff i needded ! Maybe they were drafting rares or something ? Anyway, now that i won 10 boosters i have plenty of rares myself. Plus I had so much fun... "

Reyda wrote: > If someone is upset about rare drafting, maybe they should play sealed deck > tournaments instead of drafts. Drafts are not for the faint hearted =) Yeah, see, I think the original poster was trying to figure out a way to *get* people to play draft, 'cause apparently, like, some players wanted to draft, but others weren't so keen, as they don't want to be screwed by rare drafting. The solution of "they shouldn't be drafting then" isn't really what he was looking for, I'd gander... [ quoted text not captured ]

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> a écrit dans le message de news:BD59E7CA.192BE%pd...@lightlink.com... > Reyda wrote: > > > If someone is upset about rare drafting, maybe they should play sealed deck > > tournaments instead of drafts. Drafts are not for the faint hearted =) > > Yeah, see, I think the original poster was trying to figure out a way to > *get* people to play draft, 'cause apparently, like, some players wanted to > draft, but others weren't so keen, as they don't want to be screwed by rare > drafting. The solution of "they shouldn't be drafting then" isn't really > what he was looking for, I'd gander... ? the original poster (archon) just wanted advices on how to conduct drafts. someone else (curevei) then added something about some 'rare drafter' nuisance. I think that Archon, on his seond post, gave him a perfectly valid answer. Let me remind you : "Hum... I understand the problem but if a player draft all the rare, his deck will suffer from it, his winning chance will decrease...". English is not my first language, see, like, well, yeah, but i can still understand a few sentences, like, dude, yeah. I want to wish good luck to Archon, because conducting a draft is always an exciting, but somewhat tiring adventure =)

Reyda wrote: > the original poster (archon) just wanted advices on how to conduct drafts. > someone else (curevei) then added something about some 'rare drafter' > nuisance. I think that Archon, on his seond post, gave him a perfectly valid > answer. Let me remind you : "Hum... I understand the problem but if a player > draft all the rare, > his deck will suffer from it, his winning chance will decrease...". Well, in any case, someone was looking for advice on getting people to play draft when they are concerened about rare drafting. I'll continue to maintain that "then don't draft" isn't really a good solution. > English is not my first language, see, like, well, yeah, but i can still > understand a few sentences, like, dude, yeah. Um, ok. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<413448b4$0$29004$79c1...@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] This is true, but if your metro area can only expect 10-15 people to turn out for a limited event, you'd better take the participants preferences into account or you may have no event at all! Some like sealed, some like draft, some don't like rare-drafting, some don't care. Sometimes a compromise is in order. Other times not.

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, let's continue after the commercial break. No, wait, this was the commercial break. ;) Honestly, I doubt every wise drafter will make it to the finals. Or collect prizes. Most of the time (like, in a roughly (n-5)/n*100 percent portion of all cases, n denoting the number of participants) a drafter will end the tournament with what he drafted. Bye, Daneel

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:opsdlz4l...@news.chello.hu... > On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:56:05 +0200, Reyda <true_...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > Rare drafter vs Wise drafter > > > > "Hey Raredrafter how was your tournament ? > > -miserable... > > > "Howdy Wise drafter ! How did you perform ? > > -i was in the final, again, but this time i won ! > > Well, let's continue after the commercial break. No, wait, this > was the commercial break. ;) Really. What point could Reyda be trying to make? I'm not sure I can figure it out. He should make the point of his little drama more clear. It's not like rare drafters are just itching to grab an Up Your! over a Blood Doll. The decision almost always more along the lines of finding a Shroud of Absence when you've got no Lasombras vs. some moderately useful common that you already have 2 copies of - but a third one couldn't hurt. If so, I'm happy when my neighbors turn out to be "wise drafters". Fred

"Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> a écrit dans le message de > Really. What point could Reyda be trying to make? I'm not sure I > can figure it out. He should make the point of his little drama > more clear. i was just thinking that if people come and play a draft, it's to play a game. If they are here to draft rares, they'd better spend the fee on buying rares at their local stores, i bet that would cost them less than drafting random rares (and often have crappy ones). Plus if they don't take the draft seriously they'll have a hard time going to the finals -where they win entire boosters, not single rares. I wanted to put that in a creative way but it was a failure, i guess... > It's not like rare drafters are just itching to grab an Up Your! > over a Blood Doll. The decision almost always more along the lines > of finding a Shroud of Absence when you've got no Lasombras vs. some > moderately useful common that you already have 2 copies of - but a > third one couldn't hurt. If so, I'm happy when my neighbors turn > out to be "wise drafters". Why assume that my position (and that the brain of a player) is bipolar ? a wise drafter can also snatch one or two ultra rares he wanted to finish his collection. It is perfectly compatible, and i think he deserves it as much as the rare drafter. Your human brain can be used in many ways, and you can ponder collecting vs trying to win a tournament. It's up yours -err.. up to you =) If you are telling us that same thing (people will not be stubborn and will draft what they need + half of the time the rares they want) then fine, there is no need to argue since we share the same opinion. And there is no more problem about rare drafting. i mean, i assume that people want to play game, not just collect cards. They are wasting their time if they come to a tournament when their aim is just collection.

Reyda wrote: > i was just thinking that if people come and play a draft, it's to play a > game. If they are here to draft rares, they'd better spend the fee on buying > rares at their local stores, i bet that would cost them less than drafting > random rares (and often have crappy ones). See, again, yeah, you are correct. But the issue at hand (that started most of this discussion) was "I've got players who I want to get to play draft, 'cause I have other players who really wanna play draft and I want more draft players, but some of theplayers I want to get to play draft are afraid of Rare Drafting, so they are disinclined to play draft. How do I get them to draft?" You are correct that Rare Drafting is not necessarily a good idea. And will likely make you lose. But the point is that there are, somewhere, a group of people who are afraid of Rare Drafting, and don't want to play Draft 'cause they don't want to be hosed by their opponents Rare Drafting. If there was a built in "fix" for Rare Drafting, then these players, presumably, would be more willing to play Draft, and then everyone wins. So the options suggested were: -Make people take the Rare out of the pack they open. -Let people take 2 cards out of thepack they open. The first option is the obvious easy solution, but strikes many of us as less elegant as the second, which doesn't *make* you take the Rare,and if you don't want the Rare, you can make 2 good picks out of your pack. That way everyone is happy--the folks who want their Rares get the rare and another good card, the people who are trying to make a good deck get 2 good picks out of one pack. Yes--simply ignoring the whole thing is an option too, but that is the option that isn't going to get the folks who are not playing Draft 'cause of Rare Drafting fear to start playing Draft, which was the whole point of this excercize. > Plus if they don't take the draft > seriously they'll have a hard time going to the finals -where they win > entire boosters, not single rares. I wanted to put that in a creative way > but it was a failure, i guess... No, your illustration worked just fine. But it isn't an illustration that is going to make people who aren't playing Draft out of fear of Rare Drafting suddenly realize the error of their ways and start playing Draft. I'd guess that the "pick 2 cards from the pack you open" plan might. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4134eb25$0$29742$79c1...@nan-newsreader-06.noos.net... > > "Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> a écrit dans le message de > > > Really. What point could Reyda be trying to make? I'm not sure > > I can figure it out. He should make the point of his little > > drama more clear. > > i was just thinking that if people come and play a draft, it's to > play a game. If they are here to draft rares, they'd better spend > the fee on buying rares at their local stores, i bet that would > cost them less than drafting random rares (and often have crappy > ones). Plus if they don't take the draft seriously they'll have a > hard time going to the finals -where they win entire boosters, not > single rares. Actually, in a way, money spent on rares may actually be _better_ spent in a draft: I might pass up rares which I find have no value to me but my neighbor would gladly pass up - and vica versa. Another neighbor might not care about rares at all - in which case, I have a shot at getting extra ones for the money. This seems more likely to me to produce more "rares-I-like" per dollar than just opening packs randomly. OK, to be honest, I don't think it's going to make a very noticable difference. But I don't see why I'd be any worse off drafting than opening randam packs. On the other hand, if you look at the money spent on a draft in terms of its value as a tournament, then you really are getting a lousy value. I would never find it acceptable to spend $20-30 for one afternoon's play. As for taking the draft seriously, I wouldn't think anyone would be as gung-ho to take rares at the expense of winning as your scenario indicated. I mean, there's "rare drafting" and then there's just plain stupidity. > > It's not like rare drafters are just itching to grab an Up Your! > > over a Blood Doll. The decision is almost always more along > > the lines of finding a Shroud of Absence when you've got no > > Lasombras vs. some moderately useful common that you already > > have 2 copies of - but a third one couldn't hurt. If so, I'm > > happy when my neighbors turn out to be "wise drafters". > > Why assume that my position (and that the brain of a player) is > bipolar ? Um...because that's what your whole story reeked of? I mean, it wasn't a bad point or anything. You're right: it's stupid to draft a rare just because it's a rare if it's a crappy rare - especially if some truly useful draft card were available in the same pack. The point was just a bit oversold, that's all. Fred

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> a écrit dans le message de news:BD5A74EF.192FD%pd...@lightlink.com... > So the options suggested were: > > -Make people take the Rare out of the pack they open. > > -Let people take 2 cards out of thepack they open. > > The first option is the obvious easy solution, but strikes many of us as > less elegant as the second, which doesn't *make* you take the Rare,and if > you don't want the Rare, you can make 2 good picks out of your pack. That > way everyone is happy--the folks who want their Rares get the rare and > another good card, the people who are trying to make a good deck get 2 good > picks out of one pack. uh, well then you are right, the second option is far more elegant and may also help people make stronger decks. you can pick a vamp + a card, or two cards from the set of disc. you've chosen etc... Not a bad idea ! i'm helping to organize a draft next month, so i'll propose this idea to the prince and see what he thinks about it. thanks ! =)

In message <BD5A74EF.192FD%pd...@lightlink.com>, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> mumbled something about: >Reyda wrote: > >> i was just thinking that if people come and play a draft, it's to play a >> game. If they are here to draft rares, they'd better spend the fee on buying >> rares at their local stores, i bet that would cost them less than drafting >> random rares (and often have crappy ones). > >See, again, yeah, you are correct. But the issue at hand (that started most >of this discussion) was "I've got players who I want to get to play draft, >'cause I have other players who really wanna play draft and I want more >draft players, but some of theplayers I want to get to play draft are afraid >of Rare Drafting, so they are disinclined to play draft. How do I get them >to draft?" You explain to them that their concerns about rare-drafting are unfounded, using all the arguments posted here. If they still don't get it, there's honestly nothing you can do to make them get it; they're stubborn and scared and will stay that way forever. Just ignore them and run the draft. =/ >they don't want to be hosed by their opponents Rare Drafting. If there was a >built in "fix" for Rare Drafting, then these players, presumably, would be >more willing to play Draft, and then everyone wins. But there's not a built-in "broken" for rare-drafting. Again, just keep repeating the arguments to them. Point out that their position really is "I want to know in advance if my opponents will make good decks, or if they're gonna rare draft, so I know whether I have to make a good deck too, or if *I* have to rare draft", and how this is not a Good Plan for them. Point out that it is quite possible, as others have stated, to draft good decks and then blatantly snag the Week of Nightmares when you pick it up in your fourth pack. Honestly, it's not always the Blood Doll you take in the first round -- sometimes it's the fourth copy of Flash that everyone leaves your Brujah that really wins you the game. >So the options suggested were: > >-Make people take the Rare out of the pack they open. Junk, as we all pretty much agree. Forcing an Up Yours! on someone instead of the Blood Doll penalizes those who DON'T rare-draft, or just don't give a damn. >-Let people take 2 cards out of thepack they open. This is too much of an advantage for people who are NOT rare-drafting, and penalizes the people worried about rare-drafting even more. [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray wrote: > You explain to them that their concerns about rare-drafting are > unfounded, using all the arguments posted here. Yeah, see, that isn't necessarily going to work. This clearly is not a problem that comes from logic or rationality. It is from people who are being irrational--fear of rare drafting is clearly irrational. This being said, if there are people who have this irrational fear, and if you want to get them to play, you come up with a solution that will likely work with the irrational fear. Logic is not that solution. > > If they still don't get it, there's honestly nothing you can do to make > them get it; they're stubborn and scared and will stay that way forever. > Just ignore them and run the draft. =/ Or, you could make a small concession that isn't really going to hurt anyone, and get a few more player to play draft. > But there's not a built-in "broken" for rare-drafting. I'm not saying there is. Ever. But if you've got people who think there is, and logic fails to convince them otherwise, and you want them to play draft, you come up with a solution. > Again, just keep repeating the arguments to them. Point out that their > position really is "I want to know in advance if my opponents will make > good decks, or if they're gonna rare draft, so I know whether I have to > make a good deck too, or if *I* have to rare draft", and how this is not > a Good Plan for them. Sure. That works just fine on the internet. But in real life, you likely just piss them off and make them not want to play even more. Especially considering how draft isn't cheap--you are trying to nicely coerce folks into playing expensive draft, 'cause presumably, you want more folks playing draft. You could try logic. Or repeating arguments. I don't think logic is likely to work. I think repeating arguments is likely to piss people off. A simple fix like "pick 2 out of the pack you open" might work just fine with limitied impact on play. > Junk, as we all pretty much agree. Forcing an Up Yours! on someone > instead of the Blood Doll penalizes those who DON'T rare-draft, or just > don't give a damn. Exactly. > This is too much of an advantage for people who are NOT rare-drafting, > and penalizes the people worried about rare-drafting even more. I'm not so convinced of that. Picking 2 cards out of a pack is, likely, not any better than picking the best card out of your pack and the second best card out your neighbors pack. But the psychological advantage it gives people afraid of rare drafting is likely enough to convince them to actually play. And maybe have a good time. And maybe begin to understand draft enough so that logic will work on them eventually. [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BD5B469F.19331%pd...@lightlink.com>... > Derek Ray wrote: > > > You explain to them that their concerns about rare-drafting are > > unfounded, using all the arguments posted here. > > Yeah, see, that isn't necessarily going to work. This clearly is not a > problem that comes from logic or rationality. It is from people who are > being irrational--fear of rare drafting is clearly irrational. More to the point, people don't want to feel like they've been screwed out of something if they are putting down money for it. > > If they still don't get it, there's honestly nothing you can do to make > > them get it; they're stubborn and scared and will stay that way forever. > > Just ignore them and run the draft. =/ > > Or, you could make a small concession that isn't really going to hurt > anyone, and get a few more players to play draft. This is also important. If you have a group of experienced players/drafters together in a hotel room at a Con, sure, people will just break open a couple boxes and take the drafting seriously. If you're in an environment with some newbies and younger players who haven't done much drafting, there's an incentive to break them in somewhat gently so they might return in the future. Telling them in essence, "This won't hurt a bit" isn't very encouraging. > > Again, just keep repeating the arguments to them. > > Sure. That works just fine on the internet. But in real life, you likely > just piss them off and make them not want to play even more. Especially > considering how draft isn't cheap--you are trying to nicely coerce folks > into playing expensive draft, 'cause presumably, you want more folks playing > draft. Berating people into playing VTES, or any game that is supposed to be fun, is never a good start. Yeah, we're talking about draft tournaments here, but not many people do draft for fun. I still think it would be great if we set aside a weekend day locally right after the current sets are open and played some sealed first, then some draft after, probably with the 2-pick per pack rule. People would just take their rares since it's just for fun, but most importantly they'd get experience drafting and these sorts of concerns about "rare-drafting" would be alleviated in the long run. > > This is too much of an advantage for people who are NOT rare-drafting, > > and penalizes the people worried about rare-drafting even more. > > I'm not so convinced of that. Picking 2 cards out of a pack is, likely, not > any better than picking the best card out of your pack and the second best > card out your neighbors pack. But the psychological advantage it gives > people afraid of rare drafting is likely enough to convince them to actually > play. And maybe have a good time. And maybe begin to understand draft enough > so that logic will work on them eventually. I'm with Peter on this one. "God" packs do happen, but everyone has equal access to the same number of fresh packs so it's not likely to affect the outcome any more than standard drafting one per pack. Besides, someone drafting a rare and a power uncommon is probably doing the right thing anyway. It's kinda like one of those LSJ/design team arguments where events affect everyone equally: If your strategy (that is, you decide to draft "good stuff" and not rares) is designed to take advantage of the event (draft 2 cards from fresh packs), you'll likely perform better. So everyone, put lots of Masters in your Anthelios decks. ;) Bottom line is there are lots of draft options. Do what's best for your group.

In article <621dd332.04083...@posting.google.com>, jeff...@hotmail.com says... > This is true, but if your metro area can only expect 10-15 people to > turn out for a limited event, you'd better take the participants > preferences into account or you may have no event at all! > > Some like sealed, some like draft, some don't like rare-drafting, some > don't care. Sometimes a compromise is in order. Other times not. I still don't get it, after reading most of this thread. If people don't want to get "screwed" by other people rare drafting, they can just rare draft themselves, no? Problem solved. -- -Snapcase

Snapcase wrote: > I still don't get it, after reading most of this thread. If people > don't want to get "screwed" by other people rare drafting, they can just > rare draft themselves, no? Problem solved. See, here is the thing. If you want to do well in the tournament, you don't rare draft. You "good card" draft (i.e. you draft to make a good deck). If you are "good card drafting", and the guy next to you is just "rare drafting", then the guy next to you gets twice as many rares as he paid for. If there are 4 people at the table, and 3 of them are trying to make a good deck, and the 4th guy is rare drafting, not caring what his deck looks like, guy 4 is going to end up with, what, about 32 rares, and everyone else is going to end up with none. So you end up rare drafting, 'cause you are afraid of getting screwed out of your rares ('cause you equate "buying a booster pack" with "buying a rare", even in s a draft game). Which means that the guy who isn't rare drafting is making a much better deck than you, and while you aren't get screwed out of his rares, and he is, he is much more likely to win the game, and if you can't win the game, why are you drafting in the first place, rather than just buying boosters? Again, I'm not saying this is particularly rational. But it is likely the understanding of at least some players who might like playing draft if they could avoid feeling screwed by rare drafting. Thus, the "pick 2 out of the pack you open" plan, which likely makes everyone feel comfortable about the situation. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <BD5BDD83.1937D%pd...@lightlink.com>, pd...@lightlink.com says... > If there are 4 people at the table, and 3 of them are trying to make a good > deck, and the 4th guy is rare drafting, not caring what his deck looks like, > guy 4 is going to end up with, what, about 32 rares, and everyone else is > going to end up with none. This assumes that none of the other 3 people use any of the rares, and that every rare is worth drafting. Usually "what really happens" is somewhere in between. > Again, I'm not saying this is particularly rational. But it is likely the > understanding of at least some players who might like playing draft if they > could avoid feeling screwed by rare drafting. Then (as said by others in this thread) these players shouldn't be drafting. Are we so hard up for people to draft with that we have to cater to people who should just be ordering singles from diverzions? > Thus, the "pick 2 out of the pack you open" plan, which likely makes > everyone feel comfortable about the situation. It certainly amplifies the "good pack/bad pack" scenario. -- -Snapcase

Snapcase wrote: > Then (as said by others in this thread) these players shouldn't be > drafting. Are we so hard up for people to draft with that we have to > cater to people who should just be ordering singles from diverzions? Ok. Dude. The whole point of the discussion (well, at least this part) was "how do I get people who are irrationally afraid of rare drafting to play draft?" Saying "then they shouldn't play draft" isn't solving the problem. Even remotely. The "pick 2 out of the pack you open" plan likely will convince these people to play draft (which is the goal in the first place) without having too much of an impact on the game for all involved. Maybe after they are convinced to play draft, and play a few tims, they will realize that their fear of rare drafting is irrational, and won't worry about it any more. But that isn't likely to happen until a concession is made to entice them into playing. > It certainly amplifies the "good pack/bad pack" scenario. Not so much that it is going to make a difference. I mean, yeah, I wouldn't want to play "pick 2 out of the pack you open" in, like, the World Championships of Draft tournament or whatever, but it isn't going to have any negative impact at all on a local draft game with 8 people, 4 of whom are only willing to play draft if they don't feel they are getting hosed by rare drafting. [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija wrote: > See, here is the thing. If you want to do well in the tournament, you don't > rare draft. You "good card" draft (i.e. you draft to make a good deck). If > you are "good card drafting", and the guy next to you is just "rare > drafting", then the guy next to you gets twice as many rares as he paid for. He didn't pay for any rares. He paid to draft. If there are eight boosters, he paid to draft 88 cards and play in a tournament with the cards he drafts and then take home the 88 cards he drafted. In this case, both players are getting what they paid for. If the players want to see it as something else, then a solution would be to help them correct that perception. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: > He didn't pay for any rares. See, again, somwhere in there I made the point of "as we are dealing with people who equate "buying a pack" with "buying a rare". > He paid to draft. If there are eight boosters, he paid to draft 88 cards > and play in a tournament with the cards he drafts and then take home the > 88 cards he drafted. > > In this case, both players are getting what they paid for. Yes, yes they are. But if someone doesn't want to play draft 'cause they are afraid of rare drafting, this logic isn't going to convince them to draft. Which is what this conversation is attempting to do. Figure out a way to convince people who are afraid of rare drafting to draft. > If the players want to see it as something else, then a solution would > be to help them correct that perception. Yes. I'm sure it would. And you could also say "Hey! Israelies! Palestinians! Cut it out! Just get along!" That probably wouldn't work either. See, if you are in a situation with people who are reluctant to draft, and you are trying to nicely win them over so they will draft, berating them and continually explaining to them how they are either just wrong or flat out being irrational isn't going to win them over. That works just fine on the internet, 'cause, well, who the hell cares? But in real life, you generally, ya know, need to be nicer than that. It strikes me, at least, that the "draft 2 from the pack you open" plan could likely be the winning over point. Once they are playing, and have draft experince, and like doing so, *then* maybe logic will work out. Before hand, you are just going to end up with people, ya know, not wanting to draft, still. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> a écrit dans le message de news:BD5CA564.193BD%pd...@lightlink.com... > It strikes me, at least, that the "draft 2 from the pack you open" plan > could likely be the winning over point. Once they are playing, and have > draft experince, and like doing so, *then* maybe logic will work out. Before > hand, you are just going to end up with people, ya know, not wanting to > draft, still. Mmmm LSJ ? if i organize a sanctionned draft event and propose the bakija rule "take 2 from the booster you open", can i still have it sanctioned ? i want to try =)

Reyda wrote: > Mmmm LSJ ? > if i organize a sanctionned draft event and propose the bakija rule "take 2 > from the booster you open", can i still have it sanctioned ? Sanctioned tournament have to follow the VEKN rules, by definition, so no. [ quoted text not captured ]

Reyda wrote: > Mmmm LSJ ? > if i organize a sanctionned draft event and propose the bakija rule "take 2 > from the booster you open", can i still have it sanctioned ? > i want to try =) Yeah, see, I'm not, like, advocating that this idea becomed sanctioned. Or used in serious events. But the situation proposed was one where a player was trying to get other local players to play draft, but they were reluctant due to fear of rare drafting, and logic didn't seem to be convincing them otherwise. A nice compromise, like suggested, is certainly something that could help win people over to try draft and isn't going to hurt anyone. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Snapcase" <capta...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:MPG.1ba0dd7ec...@news.optonline.net... > > Thus, the "pick 2 out of the pack you open" plan, which likely makes > > everyone feel comfortable about the situation. > > It certainly amplifies the "good pack/bad pack" scenario. > Alternate solution: Rather than pick 2, everyone removes their pack's rare before drafting their first card. Might re-level the drafting field a little bit more than picking two cards. DaveZ Atom Weaver

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a écrit dans le message de news:pgGZc.544768$Gx4.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Reyda wrote: > > Mmmm LSJ ? > > if i organize a sanctionned draft event and propose the bakija rule "take 2 > > from the booster you open", can i still have it sanctioned ? > > Sanctioned tournament have to follow the VEKN rules, by definition, so no. mm ok too bad !

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> a écrit dans le message de news:BD5CB05D.193C6%pd...@lightlink.com... > Reyda wrote: > > > Mmmm LSJ ? > > if i organize a sanctionned draft event and propose the bakija rule "take 2 > > from the booster you open", can i still have it sanctioned ? > > i want to try =) > > Yeah, see, I'm not, like, advocating that this idea becomed sanctioned. Or > used in serious events. But the situation proposed was one where a player > was trying to get other local players to play draft, but they were reluctant > due to fear of rare drafting, and logic didn't seem to be convincing them > otherwise. A nice compromise, like suggested, is certainly something that > could help win people over to try draft and isn't going to hurt anyone. i think it was worth giving it a try in a big event (European championship...) i 'll do that during unsanctioned games then =)

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:41374202$0$16140$79c1...@nan-newsreader-04.noos.net... [ quoted text not captured ] Oh, not really _that_ bad... I think what's being lost in all this debate about what's the best rule to convince irrational people not to fear rare drafting is that fact that there doesn't seem to be many such people, at least in my experience. Whenever I hear about people complaining about "rare drafters", it's always some other unspecified people - that is, never the speaker himself - who are supposedly complaining. It's like that old "heard it from the friend of a friend" thing. Who really stands up and says they care about this? I can't recall ever meeting such a person. Make no mistake, I think the logic behind the rule Peter is advocating is exceptionally silly. I don't see how drafting two cards makes any difference in the question of having to choose between a rare valuable constructed card and a good draft card. What if there are exactly *two* good draft cards in the pack you open? And if you only draft one card (the normal rules), you have just as much chance to benefit from your neighbor's difficult decision as you have of losing out when you have to make one. And if you and your neighbor would make different decisions, you both win - that's the beauty of drafting. But Peter says this rule would somehow assauge the irrational people who fear rare drafting - as opposed to say, a rule that forces one to take the rare cards from the packs he opens. (At least this actually addresses the issue directly.) But I'm not sure how he can claim to know what such a person would prefer. Fred

Frederick Scott wrote: > I think what's being lost in all > this debate about what's the best rule to convince irrational > people not to fear rare drafting is that fact that there doesn't > seem to be many such people, at least in my experience. Heck. I don't know of any of them. I'm just going on what someone else proposed for discussion (Jeff? Ian? Someone.) > Make no mistake, I think the logic behind the rule Peter is > advocating is exceptionally silly. I don't see how drafting two > cards makes any difference in the question of having to choose > between a rare valuable constructed card and a good draft card. > What if there are exactly *two* good draft cards in the pack > you open? And if you only draft one card (the normal rules), you > have just as much chance to benefit from your neighbor's difficult > decision as you have of losing out when you have to make one. And > if you and your neighbor would make different decisions, you both > win - that's the beauty of drafting. See, I'm guessing that the psychological trick of getting to take the rare *and* another good card would likely convince someone who fills this description that drafting isn't that scary. But then I'm totally talking out of my ass here. > But Peter says this rule would somehow assauge the irrational > people who fear rare drafting - as opposed to say, a rule that > forces one to take the rare cards from the packs he opens. (At > least this actually addresses the issue directly.) It does, but it also makes the people who are actually wanting to play draft for draft's sake (i.e. they don't care about the rare) unhappy, as they'll open a pack, see all the good and powerful cards in their pack, and then be foreced to pick an Up Yours!. I figure the "pick 2 from the pack you open" plan will make everyone happy, not negatively impact the game to any significant extent, and in the end, do exactly what it is meant to--convince people who are leery of draft to play. >But I'm not sure how he can claim to know what such a person would prefer. I can't. But then, I'm apparently the only person involved in this discussion who accepts that, in real life, berrating folks with logic for being completely irrational is unlikely to win them over to your side, so maybe I have a unique insight to the human mind :-) [ quoted text not captured ]