Infernal Rule Change

Locally, a few of us had talked about the infernals not really being wanted in the KMW precon format because of the infernal penalty. And so I was thinking just this morning that I'd bet there would be some kind of rule change...and then low and behold: >From the site: "Before KMW, The infernal penalty was paid to avoid tapping the infernal vampire in the untap phase. Now, as of KMW, the infernal penalty is paid to untap the infernal vampire (who now doesn't untap as normal). So if the vampire is untapped already at the start of your turn (either because he didn't tap or because he untapped some other way via Majesty or Change of Target of the like), you don't have to pay to keep him that way." Now you can block, S:CE with Majesty and do something on your very next turn without the pool loss... woo hoo! -tpl

Does this mean that Infernal minions are now effectively unaffected by other things that stop them from untapping during the untap phase? i.e. Sensory Deprivation, Rotschreck, Toreador Grand Ball (if you had an Infernal Toreador of course) ?

Its a little annoying because I have been toying with a deck that uses Barbarro Luccese to turn my prey's vamps infernal so they either lose pool to untap them or tap them and have no actions/blockers. Though not a major change, it does mean I have to work around it now. -- Colin "Eryx" Goodman Cambridge UK http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.html

"Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message news:lIidnTYtFPU...@comcast.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Yes. Redundantly not untapping as normal will not prevent you from doing the non-normal untapping (by whatever means, infernal or otherwise). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

so, please answer with a yes or no (i know what i ask is very hard for you, but please try). Can a sensory deprivated (sup) infernal vampire, pay 1 pool to untap ? George

<geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message news:1105719567.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > so, please answer with a yes or no (i know what i ask is very > hard for you, but please try). You mean like I just did in the previous response? > Can a sensory deprivated (sup) infernal vampire, pay 1 pool to untap ? > George Again, yes. See also a Sensory Deprived Deranged vampire. [ quoted text not captured ]

thanks i appreciate it. (sorry, didn't see the "Yes" which is infront of the "Redundantly not untapping as normal will not prevent you from doing the non-normal untapping (by whatever means, infernal or otherwise") careless me... :) George

tobinator wrote: > From the site: > "Before KMW, The infernal penalty was paid to avoid tapping the > infernal vampire in the untap phase. Now, as of KMW, the infernal > penalty is paid to untap the infernal vampire (who now doesn't untap as > normal). > > So if the vampire is untapped already at the start of your turn (either > because he didn't tap or because he untapped some other way via Majesty > or Change of Target of the like), you don't have to pay to keep him > that way." TYPO: Should be "...Change of Target *OR* the like)..." Jeff

[ quoted text not captured ] I know that I'm being whiney-whiney, but this rules change just slightly shot one of my decks in the balls... ;( I was playing Baali especially because they can be tapped without acting or blocking. Of course, it may be a step towards making the Baali more competitive, but in the right hands they weren't terribly bad to begin with... Designing around flaws or frailties is an ever present deck construction consideration. *sigh* anyway, I've always seen the Baali as the clan 2nd worst off (at "best"). No amount of infernalism can make them less desirable than the clan (or bloodline) which exhibits the following traits: - One clan discipline is so uncommon that less than half of the crypt even has it (and nobody has it at superior). - Despite this, an almost-decent vampire of said clan has an OOC discipline that is a rather... interesting choice. - Their special cards focus on Melee Weapon combat, with absolutely no ranged potenrial - and the best maneuver they have access to is Fake Out. - Their clan-concept based advantages function mostly against a clan which has ready access to an abundance of maneuvers, ranged strikes, and strikes that foil fortitude prevent and weapons... - The clan would only be good for weenie combat, but then again it only numbers 5 members, which is not exactly the definition of weenies... ...there's a bonus for anyone who finds out what clan I'm talking about. -- Bye, Daneel

> ...there's a bonus for anyone who finds out what clan I'm talking about. > > -- > Bye, > > Daneel well, duh, !sal does that mean i get all of your rares, or what? how about all of your sabbat uncommons, i'd settle for that -KB, Prince of Harrisburg

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:opskmdng...@news.chello.hu... > On 14 Jan 2005 07:51:08 -0800, tobinator <tobin...@adelphia.net> wrote: > - Their special cards focus on Melee Weapon combat, with absolutely no > ranged potenrial - and the best maneuver they have access to is Fake Out. I have no clue what any of this means. But you're clearly ignoring Behind You!, whose only flaw is that you can't use it after the first round of combat. But it makes a great free backup to Fear of the Void Below, since you normally don't need a backup maneuver after the first round. (That is, opponents will usually expend all their maneuvers going back to close the first round.) And the Baali with superior OBF can dodge with it in a pinch or to get it out of their hands. Yes, complaining about this rule change because you have some deck that somehow takes advantage of their tapped-ness is very whiny. Extremely whiny! You should have played it in the Storyline and gotten it out of your system. Fred

>> Can a sensory deprivated (sup) infernal vampire, pay 1 pool to untap ? > > Again, yes. > See also a Sensory Deprived Deranged vampire. > LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Im sorry this isnt the most constructive of posts WooooHooo to the above ruling :) Piers

<id77...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1105755171.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > >> ...there's a bonus for anyone who finds out what clan I'm talking > about. >> Bye, >> Daneel > > well, duh, !sal > > does that mean i get all of your rares, or what? > how about all of your sabbat uncommons, i'd settle for that > -KB, Prince of Harrisburg Err it cant be !Salubri - Adonai & Wolf Valentine have superior Valeren & all of the rest hav it at monor. Im still sure that the Nagaraja is by far the weakest - has anyone ever played a deck with them ? hmm Its some sort of trick question I think as the only clans with 5 vamp are :- Ahrimanes, Daughters, Harbinger, Kiasyd, !Salubri and all of those have at least one vamp with the clan disciplines at Superior. AUS FOR NEC for the Harbinger.. Piers

"Piers" <Piers-AT-blacklightcafe.co.uk> wrote in message news:41e8995e$0$19160$cc9e...@news-text.dial.pipex.com... > Im still sure that the Nagaraja is by far the weakest - has anyone ever > played a deck with them ? Have I played a deck with Le Dinh Tho? You bet! I don't think of the Nagaraja as a clan. I think of them as three individual vampires which have interesting specials that might go into a deck as basically "clanless" vampires. (What happens when a scarce bloodline has no special discipline nor clan cards.) Fred

Piers wrote: > <id77...@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:1105755171.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > Err it cant be !Salubri - Adonai & Wolf Valentine have superior Valeren & > all of the rest hav it at monor. For is a clan discipline for !sal (Daneel didn't say clan defining or specific discipline, as we all like to assume). FOR would really make !Sal something... compared to their nothing. :P

Piers wrote: > Im still sure that the Nagaraja is by far the weakest - has anyone ever > played a deck with them ? Umm, wha? The Nagaraja are, like, the most useful bloddlines clan right out of the box. And show up in decks all the time. They have good special abilities and aren't hindered by a wacky bloodlines discipline. They are fantastic. Kanimana has, what, DOM, NEC, AUS? Yeah, those disciplines never come up. Heck, she fits right into pretty much any non fighty Giovani deck that already exists. Le Din Tho is a 5 with NEC, dom. Again, Giovanni built right in. And he has a very useful special ability. The Other One has AUS on a reasonably sized vampire and built in +1 stealth. I mean, yeah, it is tough to build an all Nagaraja clan deck (although I hear they exist), but they are all good vampires who have decks already for them to join. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "How does this end?" "In fire." Emperor Turhan and Kosh

what????? I love Baali, so you better watch it, or i'll send the Great Beast to deal with you... about the rest of your message.... what clan are you talking about.... hmmm.... let me take a wild guess... Salubri antitribu ????? did i find it ???? George

Im still sure that the Nagaraja is by far the weakest - has anyone ever played a deck with them ? well, Nararaja can fit in some decks, but they are not really capable of standing alone in the cruelness of jyhad... those damn flesh-eaters can only be used to support other deck-concepts... George

> - Their special cards focus on Melee Weapon combat, with absolutely no > ranged potenrial - and the best maneuver they have access to is Fake Out. he is talking about salubri anti, not baali... George

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 01:44:00 -0500, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: > Piers wrote: > >> Im still sure that the Nagaraja is by far the weakest - has anyone ever >> played a deck with them ? > > Umm, wha? The Nagaraja are, like, the most useful bloddlines clan right > out > of the box. And show up in decks all the time. They have good special > abilities and aren't hindered by a wacky bloodlines discipline. They are > fantastic. Alas, I've also seen a pure Nagaraja deck make the finals of a 40-some tournament. It almost won too (except for a pesky "I didn't say I don't block" stunt pulled by its prey). It was laughable at first sight but really scary when you knew what it was doing. Shows that with good design you *can* have a good chance to win with only two or three vampires. -- Bye, Daneel

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 [ quoted text not captured ] How ironic. I think that was the exact design goal of Bloodlines. Score one for the WW design team. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFB6TkptQZlu3o7QpERAsDCAJ0VD6/e1jZd8/3G3c+b8ePt7cxkkwCg5dlu 2cR+ugGqNIMSgtvfwLYDtB4= =LSMS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

geo...@for.auth.gr wrote: > Im still sure that the Nagaraja is by far the weakest - has anyone ever > played a deck with them ? And again, yes. All the time. The Nagaraja are like the most generically useful bloodlines vampires in the set. They have strong discipline spreads (NEC, DOM, AUS, pro; AUS, obf, dom, nec; NEC, dom, aus) and powerful special abilities. They come ready for inclusion in multiple deck types (Kanimana goes with Giovanni or Tremere or Malkavian or whatever; Raful is a Malkavian with nec; Le Din Tho goes with Giovanni or the Baron). They are fantastic vampires. You just can't really built a crypt out of just them. As the intention of the bloodlines expansion, really, was to have vampires that mixed in with other clans (see: discipline cards with outferiors and clans thay you can only really effectively get one out of at a time in most cases), and the Nagaraja are the easiest vampires to do this with, I'm totally at a loss as to how someone could think they were "weak". > well, Nararaja can fit in some decks, but they are not really capable > of > standing alone in the cruelness of jyhad... those damn flesh-eaters can > only be used to support other deck-concepts... Umm, yeah? [ quoted text not captured ]

>Im still sure that the Nagaraja is by far the weakest - has anyone ever > >played a deck with them ? Both times someone played Nagaraja in local storylines, the player was top seed going into the finals. >well, Nararaja can fit in some decks, but they are not really capable >of >standing alone in the cruelness of jyhad... those damn flesh-eaters can >only be used to support other deck-concepts... Even mentioning the above, though, the Nagaraja are certainly the least clanlike of any clan. I think there should be something to make them more interesting to play even as supporting characters, but I could say that about a lot of clans.