Question to WW

Question to VtES developers (and for general discussion): Why did you make the Nosferatu and the Toreador Camarilla starters so INSANELY less attractive to buy then the other starters? Compare , lets say, the Ventrue starter (2 freakdrives, 2 2nd trad, 1 Prot thine own and so on) to the Nosferatu one... No sane man would ever buy more than one Nosferatu starter. If the Nos starter had included lets say 2 raptors and a fists of death, more people would buy it. The result is that stores get stuck with the sucky starters in their shelves, and refuses to buy in new boxes as this means they get even MORE of the sucky starters! I can愒 accuse my local gamestores for not bying in 10 extra boxes of starters just to sell just half of those cards. Suddenly it feels like WW愀 not interested in selling stuff - a notion I never felt before!

Henrik Klippström wrote: > Question to VtES developers (and for general discussion): > Why did you make the Nosferatu and the Toreador Camarilla starters so > INSANELY less attractive to buy then the other starters? Compare , > lets say, the Ventrue starter (2 freakdrives, 2 2nd trad, 1 Prot thine > own and > so on) to the Nosferatu one... No sane man would ever buy more than > one Nosferatu starter. If the Nos starter had included lets say 2 > raptors and a fists of death, more people would buy it. > > The result is that stores get stuck with the sucky starters in their > shelves, and refuses to buy in new boxes as this means they get even > MORE of the sucky starters! I can´t accuse my local gamestores for not > bying in 10 > extra boxes of starters just to sell just half of those cards. > > Suddenly it feels like WW´s not interested in selling stuff - a notion > I never felt before! Believe I've seen this on the WW-forum earlier. Why do you consider the Toreador starter to be bad? It's easily one of the strongest startes of the six with several highly interesting cards. Ok, it's not bent on Strike: Combat Ends, but some of us prefer torporizing our opposition instead and the deck comes well prepared for some gunning fun. Sten During

In message <3E394FE8...@netg.se>, Sten During <ya...@netg.se> writes: >Why do you consider the Toreador starter to be bad? It's easily one >of the strongest startes of the six with several highly interesting >cards. Ok, it's not bent on Strike: Combat Ends, but some of us >prefer torporizing our opposition instead and the deck comes well >prepared for some gunning fun. It's not that it's a bad starter, it's often the problem for some people that it's not a good way of getting cheap rares. (A thread around the pre-release of TCE documented that it would be about as cheap to buy it with singles than with a starter.) At such a point, the fact that it's a *playable* starter and a good way of getting people to start the game is additional, and one you make well. Not all the starters are for people buying cards in bulk and veteran players, and looking for l33t rares. Boosters often work better for them. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Hi! I'm Nancy Drew! You must be the Hardy Boys! 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

>Why do you consider the Toreador starter to be bad? It's easily one >of the strongest startes of the six with several highly interesting >cards. Ok, it's not bent on Strike: Combat Ends, but some of us >prefer torporizing our opposition instead and the deck comes well >prepared for some gunning fun. While I agree that the Nosferatu deck is weak from a collecter's and non-beginner's viewpoint, there's nothing wrong with the Toreador starter. Maybe it's just me but I tend to view starters by the key cards they contain. Toreador has an Awe which is really never a bad thing at all. Here's my thoughts: !Brujah: 1 Immortal Grapple, 1 Taste of Vitae, 1 Torn Signpost, 1 Direct Intervention Lasombra: 1 Entombment Tzimisce: 1 Breath of the Dragon, 2 Carrion Crows !Ventrue: 1 Daring the Dawn, 1 Kindred Manipulation Assamite: 2 Psyche!, 1 Tomb of Ramses III FoS: 1 Temptation, 1 Banishment Giovanni: 1 Immortal Grapple, 1 Dreams of the Sphinx, 1 Parthenon Ravnos: 1 Daring the Dawn, 1 Kiss of Ra, 1 Terror Frenzy, 1 Heidelburg Castle Brujah: 1 Disarm, 2 Immortal Grapple, 1 Psyche!, 2 Taste of Vitae, Malkavian: 1 Blessing of Chaos, 1 Psychic Veil Nosferatu: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Forgotten Labyrinth, 2 Carrion Crows, 1 Taste of Vitae, 1 Terror Frenzy Toreador: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Awe, 1 Banishment, 1 Second Tradition Tremere: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Magic of the Smith, 5 Apportation, 1 Shotgun Ritual Ventrue: 1 Dominate Kine, 1 Intimidation, 2 Freak Drive, 1 Kiss of Ra, 1 Banishment, 1 PTO, 2 Second Tradition (Of course my assessment is shaded by my personal opinion of certain cards. YMMV.) While the Nosferatu starter may pale compared to the Ventrue starter, just about every other starter would (Ventrue really does have the best number of good cards). But if you really look at it, the Nosferatu starter isn't really much worse than the SW starters and even some of the FN starters. And while it may not have some of the "power rares" of the other starters, if you really think about it, those power rares are pretty much the reason you might be getting those other starters. Brujah just for the Disarm, Tremere just for the Shotgun Ritual. So though it's by no means one of the most expensive starters out there, the Nosferatu deck isn't too shabby. With Blood Dolls, Forgotten Labyrinth, Carrion Crows, Taste of Vitae, and Terror Frenzy you can't go wrong with that. Maybe it's not the best for all those freaks out there who price everything by eBay standards, but I'm sure just about any seasoned player can see the value of getting more copies of several of these key cards. Halcyan 2

as...@hotmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Henrik_Klippstr=F6m?=) wrote in message news:<5a3b0aea.03013...@posting.google.com>... > Question to VtES developers (and for general discussion): > Why did you make the Nosferatu and the Toreador Camarilla starters so > INSANELY less attractive to buy then the other starters? Compare , > lets say, the Ventrue starter (2 freakdrives, 2 2nd trad, 1 Prot thine > own and > so on) to the Nosferatu one... No sane man would ever buy more than > one Nosferatu starter. If the Nos starter had included lets say 2 > raptors and a fists of death, more people would buy it. > > The result is that stores get stuck with the sucky starters in their > shelves, and refuses to buy in new boxes as this means they get even > MORE of the sucky starters! I can´t accuse my local gamestores for not > bying in 10 > extra boxes of starters just to sell just half of those cards. > > Suddenly it feels like WW´s not interested in selling stuff - a notion > I never felt before! I have to say that this is entirely the case here in Toronto as well. they had to raise the price of the brujah and ventrue starters to up to 18$ just to try and make back what they lost in the nos and tor starters. poor judgement imo, to not balance the starters out... Now where it gets even worse is the retailers that decided to give VTES a shot starting with the CE are NEVER GONNA buy more ever. We have one that i know of in the city, and that is the situation. jds

"freakdrivr" <freak...@ponymail.com> wrote in message news:fc6a5b20.03013...@posting.google.com... > as...@hotmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Henrik_Klippstr=F6m?=) wrote in message news:<5a3b0aea.03013...@posting.google.com>... > > Question to VtES developers (and for general discussion): > > Why did you make the Nosferatu and the Toreador Camarilla starters so > > INSANELY less attractive to buy then the other starters? Compare , > > lets say, the Ventrue starter (2 freakdrives, 2 2nd trad, 1 Prot thine > > own and > > so on) to the Nosferatu one... No sane man would ever buy more than > > one Nosferatu starter. If the Nos starter had included lets say 2 > > raptors and a fists of death, more people would buy it. > > > > The result is that stores get stuck with the sucky starters in their > > shelves, and refuses to buy in new boxes as this means they get even > > MORE of the sucky starters! I can´t accuse my local gamestores for not > > bying in 10 > > extra boxes of starters just to sell just half of those cards. > > > > Suddenly it feels like WW´s not interested in selling stuff - a notion > > I never felt before! > > I have to say that this is entirely the case here in Toronto as well. > they had to raise the price of the brujah and ventrue starters to up > to 18$ just to try and make back what they lost in the nos and tor > starters. poor judgement imo, to not balance the starters out... I ran into a similar situation in Little Rock, AR., but it was all the starter decks. He said that it had something to do with the store owner claiming that White Wolf was putting a smaller percentage between the wholesale price and the SRP than other CCGs. I meant to write to White Wolf and tell them, but it must have slipped my mind. -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

James Coupe wrote: > In message <3E394FE8...@netg.se>, Sten During <ya...@netg.se> > writes: > >>Why do you consider the Toreador starter to be bad? It's easily one >>of the strongest startes of the six with several highly interesting >>cards. Ok, it's not bent on Strike: Combat Ends, but some of us >>prefer torporizing our opposition instead and the deck comes well >>prepared for some gunning fun. > > > It's not that it's a bad starter, it's often the problem for some people > that it's not a good way of getting cheap rares. > > (A thread around the pre-release of TCE documented that it would be > about as cheap to buy it with singles than with a starter.) > > > At such a point, the fact that it's a *playable* starter and a good way > of getting people to start the game is additional, and one you make > well. Not all the starters are for people buying cards in bulk and > veteran players, and looking for l33t rares. Boosters often work better > for them. > I actually think that not only is it a playable starter, but it includes cards other that the obvious Awe that are interesting to get. Elysium: The Palace of Versailles may not be a chaser for those of us who have more cards than what are good for us, but there are actually players who no longer have access to Dark Sovereign. Distraction may not be the most wanted card either, but if you want to use that card you still want more than one. Scorn of Adonis is a nasty card if used with small-cap Toreador voters. Blood Doll coming in doubles in this starter is another card that most really new players will have problems getting in enough numbers. The only card I need the Ventrue starter to get is Protect Thine Own, but all other cards mentioned are available in the boosters, and you will want to buy them anyway if you plan to access the new vampires in any number. (I'm into my fourth Toreador starter by now and haven't bought more than two each of the others. The Disarm in the Brujah starter is of course a reason to get more of them.) Sten During

>While I agree that the Nosferatu deck is weak from a collecter's and >non-beginner's viewpoint, there's nothing wrong with the Toreador starter. >Maybe it's just me but I tend to view starters by the key cards they contain. >Toreador has an Awe which is really never a bad thing at all. Here's my >thoughts: > > >!Brujah: 1 Immortal Grapple, 1 Taste of Vitae, 1 Torn Signpost, 1 Direct >Intervention Given how often IG gets printed, I don't consider it key. But, I would say this is #1 or #2 for best precon to get cards. >Lasombra: 1 Entombment Yeah, sad. >Tzimisce: 1 Breath of the Dragon, 2 Carrion Crows Carrion Crows are commons printed in multiple sets. HORRID FORM, which should also have been a common. Great to give all these new players Kraken's Kisses and not the obvious combo card which *was* an uncommon. >!Ventrue: 1 Daring the Dawn, 1 Kindred Manipulation Kindred Manipulation? Aren't these an uncommon in the set for a clan that blows? I actually used an !Ventrue precon for Obedience. >Assamite: 2 Psyche!, 1 Tomb of Ramses III I guess Psyche!, though I'd never buy an Assamite for them. Tomb was in SW. >FoS: 1 Temptation, 1 Banishment Form of Corruption. >Giovanni: 1 Immortal Grapple, 1 Dreams of the Sphinx, 1 Parthenon The Parthenon is easy to get. The only FN precon have interest in due to Dreams. >Ravnos: 1 Daring the Dawn, 1 Kiss of Ra, 1 Terror Frenzy, 1 Heidelburg Castle Heidelberg - see The Parthenon. >Brujah: 1 Disarm, 2 Immortal Grapple, 1 Psyche!, 2 Taste of Vitae, > >Malkavian: 1 Blessing of Chaos, 1 Psychic Veil > >Nosferatu: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Forgotten Labyrinth, 2 Carrion Crows, 1 Taste >of >Vitae, 1 Terror Frenzy Why mention Blood Dolls with these and not the others? Forgotten is easy to get. >Toreador: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Awe, 1 Banishment, 1 Second Tradition > >Tremere: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Magic of the Smith, 5 Apportation, 1 Shotgun >Ritual > >Ventrue: 1 Dominate Kine, 1 Intimidation, 2 Freak Drive, 1 Kiss of Ra, 1 >Banishment, 1 PTO, 2 Second Tradition > > >(Of course my assessment is shaded by my personal opinion of certain cards. >YMMV.) Of course. >While the Nosferatu starter may pale compared to the Ventrue starter, just >about every other starter would (Ventrue really does have the best number of >good cards). > >But if you really look at it, the Nosferatu starter isn't really much worse >than the SW starters and even some of the FN starters. And while it may not >have some of the "power rares" of the other starters, if you really think >about >it, those power rares are pretty much the reason you might be getting those >other starters. Brujah just for the Disarm, Tremere just for the Shotgun >Ritual. Sure, but if you have a decent collection, without power cards, there's no reason to buy them. That's not just a conceptual problem, that it's a problem with moving product has been shown in a number of areas. >So though it's by no means one of the most expensive starters out there, the >Nosferatu deck isn't too shabby. With Blood Dolls, Forgotten Labyrinth, >Carrion >Crows, Taste of Vitae, and Terror Frenzy you can't go wrong with that. Maybe >it's not the best for all those freaks out there who price everything by eBay >standards, but I'm sure just about any seasoned player can see the value of >getting more copies of several of these key cards. Except that people can get these sorts of cards all sorts of other ways.

Henrik Klippström wrote: > Question to VtES developers (and for general discussion): > Why did you make the Nosferatu and the Toreador Camarilla starters so > INSANELY less attractive to buy then the other starters? Compare , > lets say, the Ventrue starter (2 freakdrives, 2 2nd trad, 1 Prot thine > own and > so on) to the Nosferatu one... The Nosferatu Starter is certainly playable, as a sealed deck starter, but in terms of "chase" cards, it is kind of wank. Why would someone buy more than one Nosferatu starter? 'Cause they are new to the game and need basic Nosferatu type cards. Would it have been nice if the deck had at least *one* good rare? Sure, but it is hardly a huge issue. Peter D Bakija PD...@bigplanet.com http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6 "she tore down Paris on the tail of Thom Paine but the left wing's broken and the right's insane" -Bowie

>>!Brujah: 1 Immortal Grapple, 1 Taste of Vitae, 1 Torn Signpost, 1 Direct >>Intervention > >Given how often IG gets printed, I don't consider it key. But, I would say >this is #1 or #2 for best precon to get cards. Well, IG is one of those cards you really need a lot of if you want to play effective close-range Potence. As I said, this is heavily based on my experience. I have a pretty sizable collection myself but I don't have that many IG's. Plus they're always good trade bait (someone making a Potence deck is always gonna need them). >>Tzimisce: 1 Breath of the Dragon, 2 Carrion Crows > >Carrion Crows are commons printed in multiple sets. HORRID FORM, which >should >also have been a common. Great to give all these new players Kraken's Kisses >and not the obvious combo card which *was* an uncommon. Well, Carrion Crows is also another card that you probably want lots of. One of the key combat cards if you intend on playing Animalism. Lots of Animalism decks easily pack 8-10 Crows (just like Potence decks might pack like 8-10 IG's). >>!Ventrue: 1 Daring the Dawn, 1 Kindred Manipulation > >Kindred Manipulation? Aren't these an uncommon in the set for a clan that >blows? I actually used an !Ventrue precon for Obedience Actually it's a rare. I only mentioned it cause I was feeling sorry for the !Ventrue... =) >>Assamite: 2 Psyche!, 1 Tomb of Ramses III > >I guess Psyche!, though I'd never buy an Assamite for them. Tomb was in SW. Tomb was in SW but I never got any SW Tombs. Anyway, instead of having to sift through who knows how many SW boosters trying to get a Tomb, you know you'll get one with an Assamite starter. And Psyche! is a staple for Celerity combat (just like Crows and IG's). >>FoS: 1 Temptation, 1 Banishment > >Form of Corruption. Form of Corruption is good. The only reason I didn't mention it is that in my experience, they're A LOT easier to get than Temptations. >>Giovanni: 1 Immortal Grapple, 1 Dreams of the Sphinx, 1 Parthenon > >The Parthenon is easy to get. The only FN precon have interest in due to >Dreams. Parthenon was on the fence when I was thinking about including it. However, since some people use it a lot (and use lots of copies in multiple decks) I figure I might as well mention it, even if I don't use it all that much. >>Ravnos: 1 Daring the Dawn, 1 Kiss of Ra, 1 Terror Frenzy, 1 Heidelburg >Castle > >Heidelberg - see The Parthenon. Well, Heidelbergs are harder to get than Parthenons and I've used lots in different decks. So multiple copies is always nice. >>Nosferatu: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Forgotten Labyrinth, 2 Carrion Crows, 1 Taste >>of >>Vitae, 1 Terror Frenzy > >Why mention Blood Dolls with these and not the others? Forgotten is easy to >get. I mentioned the Blood Dolls cause in these starters you get *2* instead of the normal 1. Someone on the White Wolf forum just mentioned about running out of Blood Dolls despite having 30 of them. I have about 5-7 decks myself and run out of them as well. Really? I barely have any Forgotten Labyrinths. They're pretty popular among Obfuscate-as-a-4th-discipline decks. Halcyan 2

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote: snip > Tremere: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Magic of the Smith, 5 Apportation, 1 Shotgun Ritual snip Rutor's Hand! Although common, it was only printed in DS. -Antero

cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20030130163045...@mb-mc.aol.com>... -Snipped- > > > >!Brujah: 1 Immortal Grapple, 1 Taste of Vitae, 1 Torn Signpost, 1 Direct > >Intervention > > Given how often IG gets printed, I don't consider it key. But, I would say > this is #1 or #2 for best precon to get cards. Immortal Grapple is not an easy to get card IME, I only managed to get up to 10 (usable for 1-2 decks) by ordering singles. > > >Lasombra: 1 Entombment > > Yeah, sad. > > >Tzimisce: 1 Breath of the Dragon, 2 Carrion Crows > > Carrion Crows are commons printed in multiple sets. HORRID FORM, which should > also have been a common. Great to give all these new players Kraken's Kisses > and not the obvious combo card which *was* an uncommon. I don´t own a single copy of Carrion Crows. Getting them in the Tzimisce starter is GOOD. > > >!Ventrue: 1 Daring the Dawn, 1 Kindred Manipulation > > Kindred Manipulation? Aren't these an uncommon in the set for a clan that > blows? I actually used an !Ventrue precon for Obedience. > > >Assamite: 2 Psyche!, 1 Tomb of Ramses III > > I guess Psyche!, though I'd never buy an Assamite for them. Tomb was in SW. Tomb may have been in SW, but not all of us started playing in 1973 ;) I´ve got 2 copys of Tomb from 2 assamite starters, can´t get rid of them though :( > > >FoS: 1 Temptation, 1 Banishment > > Form of Corruption. > > >Giovanni: 1 Immortal Grapple, 1 Dreams of the Sphinx, 1 Parthenon > > The Parthenon is easy to get. The only FN precon have interest in due to > Dreams. I got my first parthenon after buying two Giovanni starters 2 weeks ago. (OK I´ve only been playing for about a year.) > > >Ravnos: 1 Daring the Dawn, 1 Kiss of Ra, 1 Terror Frenzy, 1 Heidelburg Castle > > Heidelberg - see The Parthenon. Yep, only got one Heidelberg, could use more. Might just buy a Ravons starter for it. > > >Brujah: 1 Disarm, 2 Immortal Grapple, 1 Psyche!, 2 Taste of Vitae, > > > >Malkavian: 1 Blessing of Chaos, 1 Psychic Veil > > > >Nosferatu: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Forgotten Labyrinth, 2 Carrion Crows, 1 Taste > >of > >Vitae, 1 Terror Frenzy > > Why mention Blood Dolls with these and not the others? Forgotten is easy to > get. So why do I only have 2? -snipped some more- > > >So though it's by no means one of the most expensive starters out there, the > >Nosferatu deck isn't too shabby. With Blood Dolls, Forgotten Labyrinth, > >Carrion > >Crows, Taste of Vitae, and Terror Frenzy you can't go wrong with that. Maybe > >it's not the best for all those freaks out there who price everything by eBay > >standards, but I'm sure just about any seasoned player can see the value of > >getting more copies of several of these key cards. > > Except that people can get these sorts of cards all sorts of other ways. What other ways? Ordering singles of the net? Not everybody is comfortable with that, and singles can be pricey if you have to order from abroad and pay taxes and such. Buying starters to get certain cards is a GOOD thing IMO, and obviously, if you buy starters you also get loads of other cards that you might not have needed, but expand your collection and may give you the ability to play yet another clan/discipline mix/wacky combo.

I´m disappointed that WW won´t face this critique with some kind of explanation. Maybe because there isn´t one. They have f**ked up once again (I was into RPGs before, and was always astonished with how much crappy sourcebooks WW try to make us buy. New editions and so on.) And the only one of you guys who seem to get my point seems to be freardrivr. This is not about how good or bad the Nosf or Tor starter is in gameplay vs the other starters, it´s about that WW should try to maximize their sales and keeping both players and re-sellers happy instead of not doing so. Let me illustrate whats wrong with some examples: 1. The general not-getting the starters problem: I live in Stockholm, the capital of Sweden. There is no way in hell i can get my hands on any starters except the Nosf and the Tor ones. All the others are sold, and less-well informed resellers refuse to buy in new boxes before the Nosf and Tor ones are off the shelves. Most of them also refuse to lower the prices of these to sell them. Simply VtES is not that big a game here, so its not worth even trying to understand the problem. 2. The Beginner problem: With buying two venture starters and adding about 4-5 cards you have a deck thats VERY competitive against REAL constructed decks. But if you buy two Nosferatu starters you have to add an INSANE amout of cards to make the deck really playable. 3. The Expert problem: Let´s say I want to build a deck with 16 disarms (from Bru starter) or 10 Prot Thine Own (from Ven starter) or 8 Shotgun Ritual (from Tre starter), and lets say I´m prepared to pay up for those starters. Wouldn´t this increase sales ALOT??! I´m no financial genius, but its my guess. But I can´t, because I can´t run down to my local store and do it, and I do not live in the US so, because of the INSANE shipping costs, I can´t buy from WW, which I can´t anyway, cause both Bru and Ven starters are OFF COURSE out of stock! PS: This isn´t all about ranting. If someone could sell me a Ventrue starter, or tell me a smooth way to get one from where I live, feel free to tell me. Thanx.

<snippage> > !Brujah: 1 Immortal Grapple, 1 Taste of Vitae, 1 Torn Signpost, 1 Direct > Intervention Worth mentioning the Sword of Judgement too. > Lasombra: 1 Entombment Political Struggle was worth it as well. > Tzimisce: 1 Breath of the Dragon, 2 Carrion Crows Horrid Form too. > !Ventrue: 1 Daring the Dawn, 1 Kindred Manipulation Telepathic Vote Counting was the most useful card on board this one. Annoying that Recruiting Party (or whatever) wasn't in it too. > Assamite: 2 Psyche!, 1 Tomb of Ramses III Argueably Blood Agony, but it kinda blows. Also had Forgotten Labyrinths IIRC. > FoS: 1 Temptation, 1 Banishment Form of Corruption too. But don't mention the Grand Temple of Set... > Giovanni: 1 Immortal Grapple, 1 Dreams of the Sphinx, 1 Parthenon Ambrosius the Ferryman too. This was quite a strong deck, if I recall correctly. > Ravnos: 1 Daring the Dawn, 1 Kiss of Ra, 1 Terror Frenzy, 1 Heidelburg Castle Horrid Reality and Sensory Dep. > Brujah: 1 Disarm, 2 Immortal Grapple, 1 Psyche!, 2 Taste of Vitae, Yeah, what was THAT about! Mostly seemed to be long range stuff. Booo! > Malkavian: 1 Blessing of Chaos, 1 Psychic Veil Confusion (not reprinted since Sabbat) was handy. > Nosferatu: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Forgotten Labyrinth, 2 Carrion Crows, 1 Taste of > Vitae, 1 Terror Frenzy and COMPUTER HACKINGS!!!! The only way anyone getting on at CE is going to get their hands on nice new hacks is via this deck. And the new artwork on Gird Minions (hubba). And Nosferatu Performance Art. > Toreador: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Awe, 1 Banishment, 1 Second Tradition > > Tremere: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Magic of the Smith, 5 Apportation, 1 Shotgun Ritual And Muaziz in the vamps slots. Was Ankara Citadel in there? Seem to remember it was... > Ventrue: 1 Dominate Kine, 1 Intimidation, 2 Freak Drive, 1 Kiss of Ra, 1 > Banishment, 1 PTO, 2 Second Tradition Big-ish vampires though. > While the Nosferatu starter may pale compared to the Ventrue starter, just > about every other starter would (Ventrue really does have the best number of > good cards). Not a lot of combat defence, though (if you're playing it in a draft affair). > But if you really look at it, the Nosferatu starter isn't really much worse > than the SW starters and even some of the FN starters. And while it may not > have some of the "power rares" of the other starters, if you really think about > it, those power rares are pretty much the reason you might be getting those > other starters. Brujah just for the Disarm, Tremere just for the Shotgun > Ritual. > > So though it's by no means one of the most expensive starters out there, the > Nosferatu deck isn't too shabby. With Blood Dolls, Forgotten Labyrinth, Carrion > Crows, Taste of Vitae, and Terror Frenzy you can't go wrong with that. Maybe > it's not the best for all those freaks out there who price everything by eBay > standards, but I'm sure just about any seasoned player can see the value of > getting more copies of several of these key cards. It wasn't a very well thought out deck (not much intercept, not much offense, a little combat) and the cards selected weren't really up to the job of doing anything expect a bit of bruise and bleed (bleeds for one, at least). However, it did give a flavour of how much the clan (in general) blows. There are standout guys, but really they struggle. I was a little dissapointed that CE didn't give them a few more GOOD cards. DH

Henrik Klippström wrote: > And the only one of you guys who seem to get my point seems to be > freardrivr. This is not about how good or bad the Nosf or Tor starter > is in gameplay vs the other starters, it´s about that WW should try to > maximize their sales and keeping both players and re-sellers happy > instead of not doing so. > You're the one who's not reading. I still stand by my opinion that the Toreador starter includes several cards that are hard to find and that are not released among the boosters. That deck starter in itself is playable is a very welcome bonus. Sten During

"Sten During" <ya...@netg.se> wrote in message news:3E3A6AEA...@netg.se... > Henrik Klippström wrote: > > > And the only one of you guys who seem to get my point seems to be > > freardrivr. This is not about how good or bad the Nosf or Tor starter > > is in gameplay vs the other starters, it´s about that WW should try to > > maximize their sales and keeping both players and re-sellers happy > > instead of not doing so. > > > > > You're the one who's not reading. I still stand by my opinion that > the Toreador starter includes several cards that are hard to find > and that are not released among the boosters. Dont forget the 4 Pursuit and 1 Side strike Realy good celerity combat cards [ quoted text not captured ]

>It wasn't a very well thought out deck (not much intercept, not much >offense, a little combat) and the cards selected weren't really up to >the job of doing anything expect a bit of bruise and bleed (bleeds for >one, at least). However, it did give a flavour of how much the clan >(in general) blows. There are standout guys, but really they struggle. >I was a little dissapointed that CE didn't give them a few more GOOD >cards. Huh? Good cards? Like new library cards (which none of the clans got)? Or just good cards in the starter? Regardless, the Nosferatu got some really powerful vampires in CE. I don't see how anyone can complain of Cock Robin, Ellison, Casino, and Khalid among the fatties, and even some good mid-caps like Amelia and Gemini. The new Nosferatu are quite solid if you ask me so the Nosferatu definitely walked away pretty well. Not to mention they still reap the enormous benefits of having the additional Prince, Calebos...Calebros...whatever. Does anyone else have a problem remembering which one's which? Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 wrote: > additional Prince, Calebos...Calebros...whatever. Does anyone else have a > problem remembering which one's which? Helpful aid: Prince has an 'R', and so does Calebros the Prince. Bishop has no 'R', and neither does Calebos the Bishop. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On 31 Jan 2003, [ISO-8859-1] Henrik Klippström wrote: > 2. The Beginner problem: With buying two venture starters and adding > about 4-5 cards you have a deck thats VERY competitive against REAL > constructed decks. But if you buy two Nosferatu starters you have to > add an INSANE amout of cards to make the deck really playable. If I just looked at the cardlists for each deck, I'd agree with you. However, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around how well a relatively new player, with relatively few cards, has done in our playgroup. He happens to have focused on the Nos early on. There isn't anything flashy or cute about the decks that he's playing, but he does quite well. Most of these decks are tweaks on the Nos starter, which is why I thought it relevant to comment. Of course it's always possible that he does well only because all the other players suck, but I don't find that to be a likely explanation. I think it has more to do with his decks *not* being flashy big targets, nor do they have any critical weak spots to attack. A lot of computer hacks and bleed retainers/laptops, a good chunk of obfuscate to get the bleeds through, and some animalism untap, intercept, and combat are, while mild and uninteresting to those who value innovation, a pretty solid core. David Cherryholmes Prince of Durham, NC

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030131074218...@mb-fo.aol.com... > > Not to mention they still reap the enormous benefits of having the > additional Prince, Calebos...Calebros...whatever. Does anyone else have a > problem remembering which one's which? Calebros is the smallest Prince. Calebos is that guy from Clash of the Titans with the horns and the tail that spills the Medusa blood to make those big scorpions. He's also the new guy from CE. > > Halcyan 2 Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

> I´m disappointed that WW won´t face this critique with some kind of > explanation. Maybe because there isn´t one. They have f**ked up once > again (I was into RPGs before, and was always astonished with how much > crappy sourcebooks WW try to make us buy. New editions and so on.) Why do you think WW messed up? Because there are selling stuff you don´t like! If you don´t like the stuff there are publishing why are you buying them. If you haven´t noticed yet: The new Editions are there for telling the storyline and the changes that comes with the storyline. ( Regarding the V:TM products) I can´t tell about any other products. Additionally if they would do new Editions they would likely go bankrupt. Bankrupt = no more stuff they could produce. > And the only one of you guys who seem to get my point seems to be > freardrivr. This is not about how good or bad the Nosf or Tor starter > is in gameplay vs the other starters, it´s about that WW should try to > maximize their sales and keeping both players and re-sellers happy > instead of not doing so. If you want to change something tell it LSJ. Additionally why do you think they would just produce starters with hard to get rares. Starters are not intended for containing just the good cards. They are there for one purpose: to play! The fact that Ventrue and Brujah starters sold out is easy: DEMAND!! It is obvious that some products are likely to sell more easy because the demand is higher. That is a natural economic principle. And besides do you think you can make things better then them. I think not! > Let me illustrate whats wrong with some examples: > > 1. The general not-getting the starters problem: I live in Stockholm, > the capital of Sweden. There is no way in hell i can get my hands on > any starters except the Nosf and the Tor ones. All the others are > sold, and less-well informed resellers refuse to buy in new boxes > before the Nosf and Tor ones are off the shelves. Most of them also > refuse to lower the prices of these to sell them. Simply VtES is not > that big a game here, so its not worth even trying to understand the > problem. Ahh we come to the point! V:TES is not doing big business where you live! Maybe you should just try to get new players into the game. Nosferatu is easy to play! Why not convince some Magic players to try it? > 2. The Beginner problem: With buying two venture starters and adding > about 4-5 cards you have a deck thats VERY competitive against REAL > constructed decks. But if you buy two Nosferatu starters you have to > add an INSANE amout of cards to make the deck really playable. God I just would love to encounter only Ventrue players. I'd screw them with my Toreador decks because they would just contest themselves. > 3. The Expert problem: Let´s say I want to build a deck with 16 > disarms (from Bru starter) or 10 Prot Thine Own (from Ven starter) or > 8 Shotgun Ritual (from Tre starter), and lets say I´m prepared to pay > up for those starters. Wouldn´t this increase sales ALOT??! WW has a market shares of less than 1% or 2% the CCG sector. I don´t think that they would go for the risk and produce 4 times as many Ventrue and Brujah Starters compared to the other ones. > I´m no financial genius, but its my guess. You are certainly not. But I am not either! Just know some basics. > But I can´t, because I can´t run > down to my local store and do it, and I do not live in the US so, > because of the INSANE shipping costs, I can´t buy from WW, which I > can´t anyway, cause both Bru and Ven starters are OFF COURSE out of > stock! What would you do then. Buy only Ventrue and Brujah starters? TO LSJ: I think you should only have 2 starters in future expansion with only good cards. Henrik is certainly buying at least 10 of each of them. Others to follow. I think this way WW would increase their income from V:TES cards a many times.

as...@hotmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Henrik_Klippstr=F6m?=) wrote in message news:<5a3b0aea.03013...@posting.google.com>... > I惴 disappointed that WW won愒 face this critique with some kind of > explanation. Maybe because there isn愒 one. They have f**ked up once > again (I was into RPGs before, and was always astonished with how much > crappy sourcebooks WW try to make us buy. New editions and so on.) Bear in mind this is not the best forum to get a response from White Wolf. This is a free domain, and hardly the place that a company will want to justify their marketing and product design strategy. The best you are going to get here is opinions from other players and fans. <snip> > PS: This isn愒 all about ranting. If someone could sell me a Ventrue > starter, or tell me a smooth way to get one from where I live, feel > free to tell me. Thanx. If you want help trying to sort this out, I may be able to assist in some part. Mail me privately @ dave...@hotmail.com Dave H

"AL" <nom...@jippii.fi> wrote in message news:ea6a080a.03013...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] au contrair! It was reprinted in Camrilla. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Henrik Klippström" <as...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:5a3b0aea.03013...@posting.google.com... > I´m disappointed that WW won´t face this critique with some kind of > explanation. Maybe because there isn´t one. They have f**ked up once > again (I was into RPGs before, and was always astonished with how much > crappy sourcebooks WW try to make us buy. New editions and so on.) > > And the only one of you guys who seem to get my point seems to be > freardrivr. This is not about how good or bad the Nosf or Tor starter > is in gameplay vs the other starters, it´s about that WW should try to > maximize their sales and keeping both players and re-sellers happy > instead of not doing so. > > Let me illustrate whats wrong with some examples: > > 1. The general not-getting the starters problem: I live in Stockholm, > the capital of Sweden. There is no way in hell i can get my hands on > any starters except the Nosf and the Tor ones. All the others are > sold, and less-well informed resellers refuse to buy in new boxes > before the Nosf and Tor ones are off the shelves. This may not be an option for you, but when a new set comes out, you can try to order a box (or boxes) from the retailer. This way, the retailer will, hopefully, be more inclined to keep more boxes in stock. > Most of them also refuse to lower the prices of these to sell them. They're idiots. If they dropped by $1 the price of the starters that didn't sell, they'd sell. This happens with Magic starters EVERY EXPANSION, and even the bad starters will nearly always sell, eventually, at slightly discounted prices. > Simply VtES is not that big a game here, so its not worth even > trying to understand the problem. > > 2. The Beginner problem: With buying two venture starters and adding > about 4-5 cards you have a deck thats VERY competitive against REAL > constructed decks. But if you buy two Nosferatu starters you have to > add an INSANE amout of cards to make the deck really playable. At GenCon2002(US), when WW decided to release the CE product early, several players bought a box of starters, found 4 other players, and we all played a game with one of the starters. I did 3 of these, and twice the Nosferatu starter got a Game Win, and the other time it got 1VP. It seemed to be slightly above-average compared to the other CE starters. Sure, you don't buy it for the rares -- and I'm sure LSJ is paying attention to this conversation and will take steps to make sure that future starters are more desirable via rare(s) count -- but the deck is just fine in terms of playability. > 3. The Expert problem: Let´s say I want to build a deck with 16 > disarms (from Bru starter) or 10 Prot Thine Own (from Ven starter) or > 8 Shotgun Ritual (from Tre starter), and lets say I´m prepared to pay > up for those starters. Wouldn´t this increase sales ALOT??! I´m no > financial genius, but its my guess. You're assuming a lot, I think. What if WW chooses the "wrong" rare to put in Starter X, and Starter X doesn't sell? It'll never happen, but it'd be awesome if WW had a survey on their website listing the next expansion's starters by clan (no cards, just the clan name), and then gave the players a choice between 3 or 4 "power" rares for each starter. The sales of the starters would increase A LOT. > But I can´t, because I can´t run > down to my local store and do it, and I do not live in the US so, > because of the INSANE shipping costs, I can´t buy from WW, which I > can´t anyway, cause both Bru and Ven starters are OFF COURSE out of > stock! I don't know why WW doesn't have a European distributor. It just doesn't make any sense. I'm sure it has to do with money (obviously), but the #1 complaint I've heard from European players in the last 2 years has been about shipping costs. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <Pine.GSO.4.21.030131...@petsparc.mc.duke.ed u>, d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu writes: >He happens to have focused on the Nos early on. There isn't >anything flashy or cute about the decks that he's playing, but he does >quite well. Most of these decks are tweaks on the Nos starter, which is >why I thought it relevant to comment. Every time I look at the Nosferatu, I can't quite focus them. If you look at, say, the Brujah, there's an obvious uber-vote deck, an obvious uber-comabt deck. Repeat around other clans. The Nosferatu I can't *quite* focus into a top tier combat deck - Obfuscate is a poor second to Celerity, loss of multiple strikes, though with a nice addition of Carrion Crows and friends. Intercept, they're a poor man's Tzimisce, and the combat element means you can't quite destroy someone as easily. Stealth, they can do - but they then lack a huge amount of bleed. Some of the best Nosferatu decks I've seen, as a result, have been superb toolbox decks. Some good bleed, some random actions, some good stealth, some okay combat. Very adaptable. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > In message <Pine.GSO.4.21.0301311009250.19834- > 100...@petsparc.mc.duke.ed u>, d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu writes: >> He happens to have focused on the Nos early on. There isn't >> anything flashy or cute about the decks that he's playing, but he >> does quite well. Most of these decks are tweaks on the Nos starter, >> which is why I thought it relevant to comment. > > Every time I look at the Nosferatu, I can't quite focus them. If you > look at, say, the Brujah, there's an obvious uber-vote deck, an > obvious uber-comabt deck. Repeat around other clans. > > The Nosferatu I can't *quite* focus into a top tier combat deck - > Obfuscate is a poor second to Celerity, loss of multiple strikes, > though with a nice addition of Carrion Crows and friends. Intercept, > they're a poor man's Tzimisce, and the combat element means you can't > quite destroy someone as easily. Stealth, they can do - but they > then lack a huge amount of bleed. > > Some of the best Nosferatu decks I've seen, as a result, have been > superb toolbox decks. Some good bleed, some random actions, some good > stealth, some okay combat. Very adaptable. A great example of this is Trey Morita's Artistically Inept Washington DC winning deck, archived here: http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k2artisticallydc. I have played against it many times and have been continually impressed at its resilience. Colin Riggs didn't get a GW 'cause of one prevention card against Trey's deck.

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3E3A765F...@white-wolf.com... > Halcyan 2 wrote: > > additional Prince, Calebos...Calebros...whatever. Does anyone else have a > > problem remembering which one's which? > > Helpful aid: Prince has an 'R', and so does Calebros the Prince. > Bishop has no 'R', and neither does Calebos the Bishop. Also, there appear to be two entities on Calebros's picture, so they're like brothers ("bros"). There is only one of Calebos. :-) Josh there is also only one of caliban and one of juan cali

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Colin Riggs wrote: > A great example of this is Trey Morita's Artistically Inept Washington DC > winning deck, archived here: > http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k2artisticallydc. > > I have played against it many times and have been continually impressed at > its resilience. And it doesn't suck when you've got the other vote deck at the table in your back pocket. Got ousted by Trey/Josh in the finals of that tournament with my prey on the ropes. Grrrrr!!! [ quoted text not captured ]

d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu writes: >>On 31 Jan 2003, [ISO-8859-1] Henrik Klippstr=F6m wrote: >>But if you buy two Nosferatu starters you have to >> add an INSANE amout of cards to make the deck really playable. >If I just looked at the cardlists for each deck, I'd agree with >you. However, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around how well a >relatively new player, with relatively few cards, has done in our >playgroup. He happens to have focused on the Nos early on. There isn't >anything flashy or cute about the decks that he's playing, but he does >quite well. Most of these decks are tweaks on the Nos starter This echoes my experience. Looking at the deck lists, I thought "ugh, junk". But all the starters play very well and put in credible performances in our games. The starters had a number of design goals. From WW's statements, the primary goal was to provide a base for new V:tES players, and they succeeded very well at that. As a side effect, some are more desirable to old players than others. Looking at the deck lists, I don't think they were expecting old players to buy them so enthusiastically. It's difficult to do everything at once. The only thing I'd call a goof is Freak Drive. Putting 2 in the Ventrue starter makes those starters serious collector bait. Probably it would have been better for FD to be common. Oh well. It's difficult to do everything at once. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com) "It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson

<d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu> wrote in message news:Pine.GSO.4.21.030131...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu... [ quoted text not captured ] I could be wrong about this, but I think he probably would have gotten you anyway, eventually. You might've gotten a VP instead of me before that happened, though. :-) More seriously (but not too seriously) that's why vote decks that have trouble passing their votes on their own are kind of a bad idea. You (I) get tempted to risk table upset for a chance at 1 VP instead of none... Josh hey, at least it was better than a deck actually trying to *use* valeren...

<snip: various precon deck notes> >> Ravnos: 1 Daring the Dawn, 1 Kiss of Ra, 1 Terror Frenzy, 1 Heidelburg Castle > >Horrid Reality and Sensory Dep. Just a reminder that the Horrid Reality as a part of this deck really sucks, as the only weapon in here was something like a .44 Magnum >> Nosferatu: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Forgotten Labyrinth, 2 Carrion Crows, 1 Taste of >> Vitae, 1 Terror Frenzy > >and COMPUTER HACKINGS!!!! The only way anyone getting on at CE is >going to get their hands on nice new hacks is via this deck. And the >new artwork on Gird Minions (hubba). And Nosferatu Performance Art. The Nosferatu starter was pretty nerfed. I'm also in the camp that the Toreador starter is sub-par, but only when compared to the playing level of the other decks. Oh, and don't forget the uber-sucky Spawning Pool. Had the deck some consistent intercept & press, it could have been useful. As it is, it's a REALLY disappointing rare in comparison to the other starter goodies. Why couldn't it have been The Secret Library of Alexandria? At least that would be worth having, and useful in almost any Nos deck. >> Toreador: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Awe, 1 Banishment, 1 Second Tradition >> While the Nosferatu starter may pale compared to the Ventrue starter, just >> about every other starter would (Ventrue really does have the best number of >> good cards). Ya think? :-) >Not a lot of combat defence, though (if you're playing it in a draft >affair). >> But if you really look at it, the Nosferatu starter isn't really much worse >> than the SW starters and even some of the FN starters. And while it may not >> have some of the "power rares" of the other starters, if you really think about >> it, those power rares are pretty much the reason you might be getting those >> other starters. Brujah just for the Disarm, Tremere just for the Shotgun >> Ritual. I think the stores and consumers prove you wrong. People are not buying Nosferatu starters, nor do many players want them in a sealed envrion as they do not perform at the same level as the other starters. IMO, the Nos starter is on par with the Ravnos/Assamite starter from Final Nights. >> So though it's by no means one of the most expensive starters out there, the >> Nosferatu deck isn't too shabby. With Blood Dolls, Forgotten Labyrinth, Carrion >> Crows, Taste of Vitae, and Terror Frenzy you can't go wrong with that. Maybe >> it's not the best for all those freaks out there who price everything by eBay >> standards, but I'm sure just about any seasoned player can see the value of >> getting more copies of several of these key cards. Individual power cards aside, the deck lack of focus and ability to do just one thing well keeps it from competing with it's counterparts without a LOT of gutting. In a sealed format with limited Booster, you might get enough good stuff to flesh these out. Even then, the other decks already have a leg up on you. >It wasn't a very well thought out deck (not much intercept, not much >offense, a little combat) and the cards selected weren't really up to >the job of doing anything expect a bit of bruise and bleed (bleeds for >one, at least). However, it did give a flavour of how much the clan >(in general) blows. There are standout guys, but really they struggle. >I was a little dissapointed that CE didn't give them a few more GOOD >cards. > >DH True.. BB

"Joshua Duffin" jtdu...@yahoo.com wrote: ><d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu> wrote in message >news:Pine.GSO.4.21.030131...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu... >> And it doesn't suck when you've got the other vote deck at the table in >> your back pocket. Got ousted by Trey/Josh in the finals of that >> tournament with my prey on the ropes. Grrrrr!!! > >I could be wrong about this, but I think he probably would have gotten >you anyway, eventually. You might've gotten a VP instead of me before >that happened, though. :-) That's still not a good excuse for handing the finals to Trey. Unfortunately, I believe it was allowed under tournament rules because you were maximizing your VPs by getting Trey to pass your Dramatic Upheaval in return for you ousting David for him. Besides that, it looked like Trey would have probably won anyways, but still, you suck. And I think David will agree that you are a "big, fat CHEATER". :) Jason Babbitt

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Joshua Duffin wrote: > I could be wrong about this, but I think he probably would have gotten > you anyway, eventually. You might've gotten a VP instead of me before > that happened, though. :-) Who knows? You know that deck bleeds for more than anyone thinks it can, and my first prey had *Basil* and less than five pool. I don't remember the state of my grandprey exactly, but I do remember planning on what I'd do after I ousted him, too, so I think it was an immediate possibility > More seriously (but not too seriously) that's why vote decks that > have trouble passing their votes on their own are kind of a bad idea. > You (I) get tempted to risk table upset for a chance at 1 VP instead > of none... Yup. Understandable, but "yup." > Josh > > hey, at least it was better than a deck actually trying to *use* > valeren... I think I lost interest in the Assamites when I realized they weren't the suckiest clan (bloodline) anymore. [ quoted text not captured ]

d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu wrote: >On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Joshua Duffin wrote: > >> I could be wrong about this, but I think he probably would have gotten >> you anyway, eventually. You might've gotten a VP instead of me before >> that happened, though. :-) > >Who knows? You know that deck bleeds for more than anyone thinks it can, >and my first prey had *Basil* and less than five pool. I don't remember >the state of my grandprey exactly, but I do remember planning on what I'd >do after I ousted him, too, so I think it was an immediate possibility It was me, playing the Ivan Krenyenko/Eye of Hazimel deck. You were probably planning to Sensory Deprive Ivan like you did in round 1 (I think it was round 1). There was nothing I could have done about it and it would have totally shut me down. That's the risk of playing a single vampire deck, when bad things happen, it's really.... bad. I'm sure you could have run over both your prey (wasn't it Greg?) and me pretty quickly. You were probably the only one capable of winning besides Trey. Jason Babbitt

On 31 Jan 2003, Jason Babbitt wrote: > It was me, playing the Ivan Krenyenko/Eye of Hazimel deck. You were probably > planning to Sensory Deprive Ivan like you did in round 1 (I think it was round > 1). There was nothing I could have done about it and it would have totally > shut me down. That's the risk of playing a single vampire deck, when bad > things happen, it's really.... bad. I really liked that deck, though. I copied the Salubri angle for my Baron/Eye deck, and that's done quite well. As a side note, the Baron/Eye can handle getting SenseDepp'd, since it freak drives and is pretty good (really good.... ridiculously good) at burning minions. It's been interesting playing the hell out of Ravnos and finding all the different get-arounds to SenseDep. > I'm sure you could have run over both your prey (wasn't it Greg?) and me pretty > quickly. You were probably the only one capable of winning besides Trey. Couldn't be me. I suck, and apparently all the people I've ever played with suck. Just ask Orpheus. ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu wrote: >On 31 Jan 2003, Jason Babbitt wrote: > >> It was me, playing the Ivan Krenyenko/Eye of Hazimel deck. You were >probably >> planning to Sensory Deprive Ivan like you did in round 1 (I think it was >round >> 1). There was nothing I could have done about it and it would have totally >> shut me down. That's the risk of playing a single vampire deck, when bad >> things happen, it's really.... bad. > >I really liked that deck, though. I copied the Salubri angle for my >Baron/Eye deck, and that's done quite well. As a side note, the Baron/Eye >can handle getting SenseDepp'd, since it freak drives and is pretty good >(really good.... ridiculously good) at burning minions. Yeah, Freak Drive can get around Sens Dep, but only if the vampire is untapped to start with. Sens Depping a tapped vampire precludes acting anyway then Freak Driving to stay untapped. There is a Golconda in my deck just in case, but I never draw it when I need it. Plus, it's possible for Blanche to get the 2nd Eye and keep rushing and stuff, but she has problems with blood and pool management because she can't Renew herself, only Taste. >> I'm sure you could have run over both your prey (wasn't it Greg?) and me >pretty >> quickly. You were probably the only one capable of winning besides Trey. > >Couldn't be me. I suck, and apparently all the people I've ever played >with suck. Just ask Orpheus. ;) Eh, your Ravnos deck is pretty sweet, unless your prey has a lot of Obedience and/or Deflection. Hahahaha :) Jason Babbitt See JOL jt2002a8 if you want to get that last inside joke

"Jason Babbitt" <dcij...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message news:20030131153010...@mb-ch.aol.com... > d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu wrote: > >I really liked that deck, though. I copied the Salubri angle for my > >Baron/Eye deck, and that's done quite well. As a side note, the Baron/Eye > >can handle getting SenseDepp'd, since it freak drives and is pretty good > >(really good.... ridiculously good) at burning minions. > > Yeah, Freak Drive can get around Sens Dep, but only if the vampire is untapped > to start with. Sens Depping a tapped vampire precludes acting anyway then > Freak Driving to stay untapped. > > There is a Golconda in my deck just in case, but I never draw it when I need > it. Plus, it's possible for Blanche to get the 2nd Eye and keep rushing and > stuff, but she has problems with blood and pool management because she can't > Renew herself, only Taste. Hey, you know what you could do? Oh, no you couldn't. I was going to say Precognizant Mobility with Blanche to untap Ivan if he gets Sense Depped. But she doesn't have [AUS]. But what you could do is throw in some Force of Will, and then he could Freak Drive to untap after the action even if he's Deprived. That'd work for the Baron too, incidentally... > >> I'm sure you could have run over both your prey (wasn't it Greg?) and me > >pretty > >> quickly. You were probably the only one capable of winning besides Trey. > > > >Couldn't be me. I suck, and apparently all the people I've ever played > >with suck. Just ask Orpheus. ;) Well, you do suck, but you still could've won the game. I could too, if by some miracle I'd gotten to chain a couple Cryptic Rider Crusades (and not gotten blocked) off a KRC. That would've taken a miracle though. Josh gets the joke but isn't laughing

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Joshua Duffin wrote: > Hey, you know what you could do? Oh, no you couldn't. I was going > to say Precognizant Mobility with Blanche to untap Ivan if he gets > Sense Depped. But she doesn't have [AUS]. You could pony up the extra pool and play Matthias. On the upside, he now has +1 intercept to catch extremely nasty stuff on the jaw that you don't want touching Mr. Guy. On the downside, he can't do the Blood Doll/Hunt/Renewed Vigor thing like Blanche can. > But what you could do is throw in some Force of Will, and then he > could Freak Drive to untap after the action even if he's Deprived. > > That'd work for the Baron too, incidentally... Might play around with that. Course, I'm the only guy around here who plays Ravnos. I keep trying to tell everyone that you can make a perfectly good weenie Ravnos deck, but no one seems interested. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <Pine.GSO.4.21.030131...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu>, <d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu> mumbled something about: >Might play around with that. Course, I'm the only guy around here who >plays Ravnos. I keep trying to tell everyone that you can make a >perfectly good weenie Ravnos deck, but no one seems interested. THAT puzzles me. I mean, a few Week of Nightmares, a bunch of weenie Ravnos, 12 Computer Hacks, your choice of irritating combat and/or stealth, and you're pretty much set to go. Sure, your vampires all go "kaboom" at some point, but you should get at least two people, and you can always reinfluence vampires that got kaboomed to try for a third. If you play it well and stall properly, you can arrange to make sure that the second person you kaboom is actually the last person at the table. Joy! -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 15:44:32 GMT, "Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote: >> Not to mention they still reap the enormous benefits of having the >> additional Prince, Calebos...Calebros...whatever. Does anyone else have a >> problem remembering which one's which? >Calebros is the smallest Prince. Except that he ties with Volker at 5, so they would be the smallest Princes. >Calebos is that guy from Clash of the Titans with the horns and the tail that spills the Medusa blood to make those big scorpions. He's also the new guy from CE. No, Calebos with no R is not in Camarilla Edition. Calebos is a Sabbat original Nosferatu Antitribu with +1 strength. Calebros with an R reappears in Camarilla Edition. He's the prince who always loses his title. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3E3A765F...@white-wolf.com>... > Halcyan 2 wrote: > > additional Prince, Calebos...Calebros...whatever. Does anyone else have a > > problem remembering which one's which? > > Helpful aid: Prince has an 'R', and so does Calebros the Prince. > Bishop has no 'R', and neither does Calebos the Bishop. Camarilla also has an 'R' and Sabbat does not. More mnemonics!

> > > Josh > > > > hey, at least it was better than a deck actually trying to *use* > > valeren... > > I think I lost interest in the Assamites when I realized they weren't the > suckiest clan (bloodline) anymore. > > David Cherryholmes > Prince of Durham, NC Thats being really unfair on the !salubri :( I´ve managed more TW (on 5 and 4 player tables) with the !Salubri then the Assamites and I´ve played a LOT of Assamite decks :)

"The Lasombra" <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:qram3v0nmajvhfkkt...@4ax.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Well, that just goes to show you how confused these 2 guys make me! Sheesh! :) > > Carpe noctem. > > Lasombra [ quoted text not captured ]

On 1 Feb 2003, Daz wrote: > > I think I lost interest in the Assamites when I realized they weren't the > > suckiest clan (bloodline) anymore. > > > > David Cherryholmes > > Prince of Durham, NC > > Thats being really unfair on the !salubri :( I´ve managed more TW (on > 5 and 4 player tables) with the !Salubri then the Assamites and I´ve > played a LOT of Assamite decks :) I'll bite. How do you win with !Salubri? What's your local game like? Care to post a deck list or two? A friend of mine would cry real tears of joy upon finding a working !Salubri deck. :) -Matt

"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:<v3l93j5...@corp.supernews.com>... > "AL" <nom...@jippii.fi> wrote in message > news:ea6a080a.03013...@posting.google.com... > > halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote: > > > > snip > > > Tremere: *2* Blood Dolls, 1 Magic of the Smith, 5 Apportation, 1 Shotgun > Ritual > > snip > > > > Rutor's Hand! Although common, it was only printed in DS. > > au contrair! It was reprinted in Camrilla. Yes, but it was reprinted only in Tremere strarter (if I remember correctly), and as for myself, it was nice to get some more Rutor's hands. -Antero

"AL" <nom...@jippii.fi> wrote in message news:ea6a080a.03020...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Correct, as well as many other high demand cards (i.e. Shotgun Ritual) [ quoted text not captured ]

Thank you Henrik. This is a big issue with me, since I own a game store. The Nos deck is crap. The best rare, Terror Frenzy, already came out in the Tzi deck. The second rare, Spawning Pool, crap. Please realize that I mean crap in terms of sexiness of deck to potential buyer, not necessarily in play (although there is relation). Freak Drives, Awes, Disarms, Dreams, Temptations are sexy. Terror Frenzy, not sexy. Spawning Pool, downright ugly (in keeping with the Nos theme perhaps). If I could order the decks individually, it would be ok. But since I have to order the decks by the box, in which we will only get one of each deck, that sucks. I still have my money tied up in my 6 Nos decks, which represents an entire box. I will buy another box, and only sell 83% of the box. With my take home pay less than 10% of retail on any given item (in toto), you can see why I am loathe to get in more boxes since I am losing out every time. I chose specifically not to give a long lecture about the economics of owning a games store here (perhaps not the place), but suffice it to say, WW's crap Nos deck does not enamour it to retailers - regardless of playability. Others compare it to Magic - you can't compare it to Magic, Magic is most store's bread and butter. Compare it to Warlord, a game fighting for space on shelves. Compare it to Harry Potter, ditto. Trust me, game stores fight a never ending battle between carrying only proven sellers (Magic, Yu-gi-oh, D&D), and carrying a wide enough selection to appeal to their clientele. There are a lot of games vyeing for limited shelf space - why make it easy for the arbiter of that shelf space to kick you off their list. Crap Nos deck and similarly although not as crappy Malk deck both are doing the job ably. It will be the Prince's jobs as well as the fan base at large to promote Anarch's hard to their local brick and mortar shops - I imagine many game retailers will be looking at their piles of unsold Cam Ed and deciding to buy another box of Magic instead with that money. chris Henrik Klippström wrote: > Question to VtES developers (and for general discussion): > Why did you make the Nosferatu and the Toreador Camarilla starters so > INSANELY less attractive to buy then the other starters? Compare , > lets say, the Ventrue starter (2 freakdrives, 2 2nd trad, 1 Prot thine > own and > so on) to the Nosferatu one... No sane man would ever buy more than > one Nosferatu starter. If the Nos starter had included lets say 2 > raptors and a fists of death, more people would buy it. > > The result is that stores get stuck with the sucky starters in their > shelves, and refuses to buy in new boxes as this means they get even > MORE of the sucky starters! I can´t accuse my local gamestores for not > bying in 10 > extra boxes of starters just to sell just half of those cards. > > Suddenly it feels like WW´s not interested in selling stuff - a notion > I never felt before! -- chris shorb <www.vtesinla.org> (A V:TES site in development) prince of torrance, california Ultimate Disc - Hockey - Vampire the Eternal Struggle Ebay page <http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/vtessingles/>

time...@scram.de (Maschenka) wrote in message news:<1d7c398b.03013...@posting.google.com>... > > I´m disappointed that WW won´t face this critique with some kind of > > explanation. Maybe because there isn´t one. They have f**ked up once > > again (I was into RPGs before, and was always astonished with how much > > crappy sourcebooks WW try to make us buy. New editions and so on.) > > Why do you think WW messed up? Because there are selling stuff you > don´t like! I usual wouldn´t care being flamed on a forum like this, and certainly not when most of you realize the problem and get my points (especially Chris Shorb and Kevin M), but Maschenka´s post is worth a comment. First about WW RPG-selling strategy: Yes, I think its bad to try to sell thinks nobody really needs, ie books where only a page tells something new. What about putting out products so the consumer goes "Hell yes, great book, fun reading and really usable in my game" instead of "OK, I had to buy this book just to get to know what generation Sasha Vykos is right now". But enough about this – Achilli has really improved in the last year or so. > If you don´t like the stuff there are publishing why are you buying > them. Who said I am? You are drawing the wrong conclusions from my statements my friend. > I can´t tell about any other products. Additionally if they would do > new Editions they would likely go bankrupt. Bankrupt = no more stuff > they could produce. So it´s OK to print (my opinion:) crap just to stay in business? LOL! > If you want to change something tell it LSJ. Sorry, but I tell it to whoever I want to tell it to. And I know LSJ reads this page. >Additionally why do you > think they would just produce starters with hard to get rares. > Starters are not intended for containing just the good cards. They are > there for one purpose: to play! > > The fact that Ventrue and Brujah starters sold out is easy: DEMAND!! > > It is obvious that some products are likely to sell more easy because > the demand is higher. That is a natural economic principle. And > besides do you think you can make things better then them. I think > not! Sorry but you seem to write stuff without reflecting on your own words. You wrote "DEMAND!!" Question: What do you think should happen if the Nosferatu starter would contain as good cards and sell as great as the Ventrue one? Answer: WW and resellers would be happier because they would sell more, and players would be happier because their decks would be better! Whats wrong with that? I throw in another, real simple example just to clarify once more for you: If a company would sell sodas in a set of 6 different flavours, 5 of them being different berrys and fruits and so on, and the 6th flavour being urine, wouldn´t EVERYBODY be happier if they switched that flavour from urine to cola? This would increase "DEMAND!!" of that bottle, and the set of 6 as a whole. Now we´re talking natural economic principle. And why do you think I couldn´t do better than WW? I´ve played the game since it came out and I understand what the players want. And besides, just because I think WW screwed up the CE starters, I still think they are doing a good job with VtES as a whole. > Ahh we come to the point! V:TES is not doing big business where you > live! No, on the contrary, VtES is played more than ever in all of Scandinavia. Its just that resellers refuse to buy more starters from WW, because they can´t sell the Tor and Nosf ones. This is bad for the game. > Maybe you should just try to get new players into the game. Nosferatu > is easy to play! Why not convince some Magic players to try it? No. Nosferatu is not easy to play. It is the most unfocused of the decks (and, like someone else on this thread said, the clan is the most unfocused of clans). And if you put a newbie with a Nosf starter on a table with ANY other decks (including other newbies with other Camarilla starters) he is doomed to loooooooose, because the deck is so unbalanced and shitty. > > 2. The Beginner problem: With buying two venture starters and adding > > about 4-5 cards you have a deck thats VERY competitive against REAL > > constructed decks. But if you buy two Nosferatu starters you have to > > add an INSANE amout of cards to make the deck really playable. > > God I just would love to encounter only Ventrue players. I'd screw > them with my Toreador decks because they would just contest > themselves. Understand this: People don´t buy Ventrue starters just to play Ventrue. Cards like 2nd trad and Freak Drive are usable in lots of decks. And I even bet one of you´re Toreador votedecks could use a Protect Thine Own! > WW has a market shares of less than 1% or 2% the CCG sector. I don´t > think that they would go for the risk and produce 4 times as many > Ventrue and Brujah Starters compared to the other ones. No, but they could make ALL the starters equally fantastic and selling! That would without doubt increase their market shares in the CCG sector. There is no logic in just puttin chase-rares in SOME of the starters. > > I´m no financial genius, but its my guess. > > You are certainly not. But I am not either! Just know some basics. When I come to think of it I actually took alot of economics courses way back. That is why I know basics (like Good starter = sell more, Bad starter = sell less). And, also, I´m a big fan of logic. > > But I can´t, because I can´t run > > down to my local store and do it, and I do not live in the US so, > > because of the INSANE shipping costs, I can´t buy from WW, which I > > can´t anyway, cause both Bru and Ven starters are OFF COURSE out of > > stock! > > What would you do then. Buy only Ventrue and Brujah starters? > > TO LSJ: I think you should only have 2 starters in future expansion > with only good cards. Henrik is certainly buying at least 10 of each > of them. Others to follow. > I think this way WW would increase their income from V:TES cards a > many times. Why don´t you read what I wrote before flaming me? Yes, in the example I mentioned, a player was ready to buy 16 Brujah starters to get 16 Disarms and 8 Ventrue starters to get 8 Protect Thine Own. What is wrong with doing so? Sure, you might think its stupid (even I might think so), but its that players money and it helps our favourite company WW earn money to make even better products! (For example hiring other artists than Shy. Not that Shy isn´t good, but he is repeating himself). Yours, /Henrik

as...@hotmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Henrik_Klippstr=F6m?=) wrote in message news:<5a3b0aea.03013...@posting.google.com>... > Question to VtES developers (and for general discussion): > Why did you make the Nosferatu and the Toreador Camarilla starters so > INSANELY less attractive to buy then the other starters? Compare , > lets say, the Ventrue starter (2 freakdrives, 2 2nd trad, 1 Prot thine > own and > so on) to the Nosferatu one... No sane man would ever buy more than > one Nosferatu starter. If the Nos starter had included lets say 2 > raptors and a fists of death, more people would buy it. > > The result is that stores get stuck with the sucky starters in their > shelves, and refuses to buy in new boxes as this means they get even > MORE of the sucky starters! I can´t accuse my local gamestores for not > bying in 10 > extra boxes of starters just to sell just half of those cards. > > Suddenly it feels like WW´s not interested in selling stuff - a notion > I never felt before! After looking at nearly all replies...I came to the following conclusion: I looks like more than half of the replies are not even roughly about the topic. Talking about some game sesions with a particular Nos deck might be information, but it's redundant information concerning the topic. Others seem to misinterpret the topic. This is not about how "good" the Nos deck is in games, it's about how good it sells (because of rare cards) in stores. Those who think that it can sell because it has good commons live on another planet (imho). I think most of the buyers are the "veterans", and not the newbies. Therefore, as the veterans buy precons mainly because of nice rare cards (which the NOS precon hasn't), the NOS Precons just don't sell as the others do. And the problem is due to the fact that Stores cannot order single precons, but have to order whole boxes. But, i really don't think that this was intended by WW. C'mon, everybody can make a fault sometimes. Next time they will know that they have to make the precons equal at both playability AND quantity of "wanted" rares. It's not so hard to find out which cards are high on market, after all...

"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.030201...@fnord.io.com>... > On 1 Feb 2003, Daz wrote: > > > > I think I lost interest in the Assamites when I realized they weren't the > > > suckiest clan (bloodline) anymore. > > > > > > David Cherryholmes > > > Prince of Durham, NC > > > > Thats being really unfair on the !salubri :( I扉e managed more TW (on > > 5 and 4 player tables) with the !Salubri then the Assamites and I扉e > > played a LOT of Assamite decks :) > > I'll bite. How do you win with !Salubri? What's your local game like? > Care to post a deck list or two? > > A friend of mine would cry real tears of joy upon finding a working > !Salubri deck. :) > > -Matt The !salubri just don愒 look threatening when put into play. But when you扉e got out 3 minions with VAL, some weapons, 1-2 filler vamps (Miriam Benyona is a favorite of mine) and the ability to bleed with the VAL vamps for 2-4 (Adonai has +1 bleed), plus some light intercept then VP start to roll in. I think the key for me has been keeping a low profile at start, the ability to intercept key action and cards that cycle easilly. And luck, as with all decks :) (I惻l post a decklist, if I find one.)

>Thank you Henrik. This is a big issue with me, since I own a game store. >The Nos deck is crap. The best rare, Terror Frenzy, already came out in >the Tzi deck. The second rare, Spawning Pool, crap. Please realize that >I mean crap in terms of sexiness of deck to potential buyer, not >necessarily in play (although there is relation). Freak Drives, Awes, >Disarms, Dreams, Temptations are sexy. Terror Frenzy, not sexy. Spawning >Pool, downright ugly (in keeping with the Nos theme perhaps). > >If I could order the decks individually, it would be ok. But since I have >to order the decks by the box, in which we will only get one of each deck, >that sucks. I still have my money tied up in my 6 Nos decks, which >represents an entire box. I will buy another box, and only sell 83% of >the box. With my take home pay less than 10% of retail on any given item >(in toto), you can see why I am loathe to get in more boxes since I am >losing out every time. Have you considered pricing them differently? It's hardly ideal as people looking for whatever you price higher will try other places first, but if nobody has, say, Ventrue precons because they are gobbled up as soon as they appear, then it might work to have the Ventrue be 10% more and the Nos be 10% less, or whatever.

>No. Nosferatu is not easy to play. It is the most unfocused of the >decks (and, like someone else on this thread said, the clan is the >most unfocused of clans). And if you put a newbie with a Nosf starter >on a table with ANY other decks (including other newbies with other >Camarilla starters) he is doomed to loooooooose, because the deck is >so unbalanced and shitty. While I agree that how well the precons play isn't at the heart of the topic, it's still sort of an interesting topic on its own. I don't have a clue as to how most of the various precons would function against constructed decks or against the precons from other sets. But, just CE precons against each other, I'd rank them from most likely to win to least in this order: Ventrue ... ... Malkavian Tremere Nosferatu Brujah Toreador I'm sure people will disagree, but this is what actual play and some analysis has shown 'round here.

"Chris Shorb" <chr...@vtesinla.org> wrote in message news:3E3E0DA9...@vtesinla.org... > If I could order the decks individually, it would be ok. But since I have > to order the decks by the box, in which we will only get one of each deck, > that sucks. I still have my money tied up in my 6 Nos decks, which > represents an entire box. I will buy another box, and only sell 83% of > the box. With my take home pay less than 10% of retail on any given item > (in toto), you can see why I am loathe to get in more boxes since I am > losing out every time. You can order them individually from White Wolf directly. I think you can even get a discount as a retailer, although there may be some conditions on that, I don't recall exactly. And then, WW is currently listing the Brujah and Ventrue starters as out of stock (as single starters) too. :-) Josh certainly agrees that "sought-after rares in every starter" is a good idea. (nos should've had disarm too, i think. or dreams, another reprint of that could never hurt, heh.)

In article <b1eavk$12h95g$1...@id-121616.news.dfncis.de>, Joshua Duffin <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: >there is also only one of caliban >and one of juan cali although it would be amusing if juan cali had to burn when caliban enters play (cali-ban, geddit?) gomi SO FUNNY -- there's a place called heaven and a place called hell there's a place called prison and a place called jail and daddy's probably on his way to all of them, except one...

> But, i really don't think that this was intended by WW. C'mon, > everybody can make a fault sometimes. Next time they will know that > they have to make the precons equal at both playability AND quantity > of "wanted" rares. It's not so hard to find out which cards are high > on market, after all... No. Finally, I got a (somewhat laconic) answer from LSJ: "Naturally it is not our goal to create unequal starters." And you are right - most people don´t give a damn about the topics. That is because most people are idiots.

"Angus, the Unruled" wrote: > > Others seem to misinterpret the topic. This is not about how "good" > the Nos deck is in games, it's about how good it sells (because of > rare cards) in stores. ... > But, i really don't think that this was intended by WW. C'mon, > everybody can make a fault sometimes. Next time they will know that > they have to make the precons equal at both playability AND quantity > of "wanted" rares. It's not so hard to find out which cards are high > on market, after all... Yes, I think this is exactly the point. It shouldn't have to be said that the problem was unintended, of course. But it was a mistake and very possibly it was a mistake because White Wolf hadn't really thought the point through. The moment I saw the starter lists some months ago, I though, "Oh, oh!" to myself and anticipated exactly the kind of complaints Chris Shorb posted about coming up. I think the reason we haven't seen more such posts is that we don't have a lot of retailers watching this group like the Magic groups. But clearly, the way the precons were laid out was prone to cause massive demand for certain ones resulting in others left on the shelves waiting to be sold. It's probably not very easy to come up with precons that satisfy all the criteria for all the functions that get laid on them. But putting at least a couple really popular, rare cards in each one is something they're going to need to do on top of everything else to make sure this isn't a problem in the future. (I often wonder if anyone at WW even has any idea which cards are "hot" to do something like this, though.) Fred

> >Lasombra: 1 Entombment > > Yeah, sad. Re-reading back through this thread, I have to comment on this idea that the lack of rares in the Lasombra started makes it "sad" or otherwise unworthy of purchase. Especially, since I think it's relevant to the argument that the Nossie starter is similarly "not worthy." I started playing VTES shortly after the release of Sabbat War and the Lasombra starter, with the noted lack of "power rares" or hard to come-by uncommons, is what kept me wanting to play. I consistently won games playing this deck unmodified out of the box. My conclusion is the same conclusion that can be made when comparing VTES in general to other CCG's. It's a testament to game design that you do not need rares to win games in VTES, and a further testament to the (IMHO) allmighty flexibility of the Lasombra in this game. So the Nossie are experiencing a similar lack of rarity as the Lasombra. I haven't bothered trying to play the Nossie starter out of box, but I imagine plenty of people have, especially given the large # of sealed box tournaments that were held around the release of the set. Can anyone say how the deck plays out of box?

Ped Xing wrote: > > > >Lasombra: 1 Entombment > > > > Yeah, sad. > > Re-reading back through this thread, I have to comment on this idea > that the lack of rares in the Lasombra started makes it "sad" or > otherwise unworthy of purchase. Especially, since I think it's > relevant to the argument that the Nossie starter is similarly "not > worthy." > > I started playing VTES shortly after the release of Sabbat War and the > Lasombra starter, with the noted lack of "power rares" or hard to > come-by uncommons, is what kept me wanting to play. I consistently won > games playing this deck unmodified out of the box. > > My conclusion is the same conclusion that can be made when comparing > VTES in general to other CCG's. It's a testament to game design that > you do not need rares to win games in VTES, and a further testament to > the (IMHO) allmighty flexibility of the Lasombra in this game. I agree that that's all very well and good - a commendable thing about this game. I'm not sure that all the precons have fallen into the category but it's good that at least some have. But it doesn't really answer the problems cited by Chris Shorb about actually _selling_ the precon decks even out of boxes of precons that retailers receive. I think it's a little bit comparable to sports book, actually. The casinos and odds-layers will set up a line on a given game where the intent is to sell bets _evenly_ on both teams. Which team is actually going to win and by how many points is only of concern to the extent it affects the average bettor's perception of where the line should be. If the line winds up where it is due to some major public misconception about how good the two teams are in relation to one another, the betting parlors really don't care. Likewise, retailers don't need to care how good the precons actually are in terms of winning. They just to be able to sell all the decks out the box and not have to cope with any old maids that build up. I think that point needs to be given its due. Fred

ped_...@hotmail.com (Ped Xing) wrote in message news:<51ecf271.03020...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] I agree, but re-read again. The issue of this topic is not if the Nos deck is good for a newbie. It愀 about selling starters. Optimizing sales. If ALL starters would both be really playable for newbie/sealeddeckplayers AND include a couple of "chase-rares", they would sell more. Get it? Sure you do. (Off-topic: The Nos deck is really bad. 1. In sealed deck-play, it sucks because its to unfocused. It tries to be a toolboxy stealthbleed-deck with some combat, but it doesn愒 work. All other CE starters is better. 2. In normal, constructed play it sucks equally, and its really hard to make better - you can愒 just buy two starters and kick ass, like you can with Ventrue.)

Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote: > It's probably not very easy to come up with precons that satisfy all > the criteria for all the functions that get laid on them. But putting > at least a couple really popular, rare cards in each one is something > they're going to need to do on top of everything else to make sure this > isn't a problem in the future. (I often wonder if anyone at WW even > has any idea which cards are "hot" to do something like this, though.) > > Fred I think WW should shape up in cases like this. They should, both for their own good and for the consumers, know what is "hot" and not ("hot" is Disarm, "not" is Spawning Pool). And I think LSJ reads everything that is posted on every VtES forum/newsgroup, so its kind of paradoxal.