More New Card Whines

This is mainly to tom . Yes I have made some mistakes in reading your posts , but I'll admit when I'm wrong ( and have done ) . And yes i am basing these comments on Errol's quoted texts so flame me if I am foolish enough to use faulty information (but yes I trust you Errol). Could you justify Archon Investigation and JUsticar Retribution for me please . Your current answers and analogies havent really been satisfactory . Your comparison of gangrel aggro and AI conveniently neglected to mention that there are methods to avoid the aggro when in combat with a gangrel , but there are no ways to protect yourself when doing big bleeds (ok maybe aura reading or owl companion to check the hands but this is difficult especially if you are avoiding combat , and Pulse of the canaille costs 3 blood and an action) . There needs to be a workable counter to this card . Ok there is going to be new ideas in cards . Good . Of the 4 new cards in Errol's post 2 appeared fair , while 2 were dodgy to say the least . Please try not to anfairly advantage one of combat/bleed/vote in the future , and also try,try,try to avoid the 1 cards kills a strategy munchkinisation that seems to be starting . JA Chapman . ps - has anyone noticed on the new clan hosers that the clan symbol appears . This has better be errata (it may already have been , sorry if i missed it) . If it isnt doesnt it defeat the purpose of the hosers , which I interpret to be to disadvantage people using vampires of a clan , usually other than your own . How many tremere players would want to play Letter from Vienna ?..... cmbat

In article <486uap$9...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> jac...@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Mr JA Chapman) writes: >[... Archon Investigation and JUsticar Retribution ...] > > Ok there is going to be new ideas in cards . Good . Of the 4 new cards >in Errol's post 2 appeared fair , while 2 were dodgy to say the least . > Please try not to anfairly advantage one of combat/bleed/vote in the >future , and also try,try,try to avoid the 1 cards kills a strategy >munchkinisation that seems to be starting . I'm sorry, but it seems that those 2 cards do not need any justification. Jyhad carries the Mt$ tradition, and inherits many of its aspects; it is only expected that a card will hose bleeds as much as Karma hoses Black. "1 card kills a strategy"? That is a /must/ in (almost, eh) every CCG. A CCG is never the same without those. It is not just `starting'; it has started, is deeply rooted in the CCG traditions, and will be there to bug you for a long while. Look at the 2 new Mt$ clones. How many cards in these "new" games seem familiar? "Flight of Dragons" in [L5R] ... Swallow that, Mr. Chapman; this is a TREND, set by the first, leading game. It is assumed that if you put in lots of mega-hosers, they will somehow balance themselves out, and if they don't, the game will still be played and loved by the players anyway, as evident from the big success of `the phenomenum'. [notice cross-posting before posting follow-ups] -- "Live Life with Heart." Alan Kwan kw...@cs.cornell.edu

Mr JA Chapman <jac...@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au> wrote: >Could you justify >Archon Investigation and JUsticar Retribution for me please . Your current >answers and analogies havent really been satisfactory . Your comparison of >gangrel aggro and AI conveniently neglected to mention that there are >methods to avoid the aggro when in combat with a gangrel , but there are no >ways to protect yourself when doing big bleeds (ok maybe aura reading or >owl companion to check the hands but this is difficult especially if you >are avoiding combat , and Pulse of the canaille costs 3 blood and an action) . The basic idea behind Archon Investigation and Justicar Retribution is to hose massive bleed decks, yes. But they do not hose bleeding in general: you can still run effectively at 2-3 bleed per action. >There needs to be a workable counter to this card . Hosers for hosers is actually a ludicrous concept. Archon Investigation does exactly what a hoser is supposed to do: it makes people think twice about following the strategy it hoses. Yes, it would be nice if you could Suddenly Reverse it... but this is true of most out-of-turn cards. No, it wouldn't be as vicious if it required being bleed for 4... but the same would be true if the card started at 5, 6, etc. >ps - has anyone noticed on the new clan hosers that the clan symbol appears . >This has better be errata (it may already have been , sorry if i missed it) . It is errata, yes. Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote: : : : The basic idea behind Archon Investigation and Justicar Retribution is : to hose massive bleed decks, yes. But they do not hose bleeding in general: : you can still run effectively at 2-3 bleed per action. : : >There needs to be a workable counter to this card . : : Hosers for hosers is actually a ludicrous concept. Archon Investigation does : exactly what a hoser is supposed to do: it makes people think twice about : following the strategy it hoses. Yes, it would be nice if you could Suddenly : Reverse it... but this is true of most out-of-turn cards. No, it wouldn't be : as vicious if it required being bleed for 4... but the same would be true if : the card started at 5, 6, etc. But they already exist - S:CE is pretty much the ultimate combat hoser but cards like psyche and hidden lurker exist that get around it . You can also Sudden reverse many of the clan hosers..... And its not the Malk decks that have the main problem , its the tap and bleeders . The only really successful decks of these type that I have played against have relied on getting through 1 bleed per round , and they have only worked when this bleed has been substantial . Rephrase the card so it can only be played 'immediately after a bleed of greater than 3 has been successful'. This way the player will have to pay a reasonable penalty for playing it (ie taking a bleed as well as the 3 pool cost ) . The card will still have a purpose - ie the big bleeders can only do it once - but the controller of the bleeder will get at least some value for his effort . For anyone with auspex the can still use telepathic counter to reduce the bleed to 4 , and a total of 7 pool isnt really that much to pay to stop a pulsed/ laptopped vamp (especially a big one) cold . A really annoying use ive already seen for this card is someone checking that their prey didnt have AI , then the prey doing a deal with the bleeder's predator to bounce the bleed to them and then the predator killed mariel - horrid and effective . : : Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for : aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc. : ` JA Chapman ps - thanks for actually participating in this discussion in a reasonable manner even though its pretty obvious you have some serious disagreements with my sentiments.