Shotgun Ritual Toronto - Tournament Report

SHOTGUN RITUAL TORONTO TOURNAMENT REPORT Four of us left from Detroit on Saturday night in order to attend the tournament in my former hometown of Toronto. You'd think that because I was from Toronto that I would know my way around... but I suck with directions. We ended up in Oakville at an over-priced hotel, where we played cards till the wee hours. All four of us brought extra decks with us and frankly I don't think any of us had any clue which deck to play the next day. We were all very quiet about which deck we'd actually play. Of the three games played in the hotel, not one of us played the same deck twice. Even two minutes before the first game was to start I still had no idea which deck I wanted to play with. I literally could *not* decide so I ended up flipping a coin. Heads - Weenie Politics - no disciplines Tails - Weenie Animalism The Gods of Jyhad favoured my coin-toss and I played with the Animalism deck. Had I gotten Heads, I would have gone down faster than a presidential intern. Unfortunately, there was only a total of ten players in attendance at the tournament. I played each player at least once, and one player ended up being either my predator or prey in every game I played. Thomas had apparently forgotten to bring a computer with him and was forced to randomize the seating order using a ten-sided die or some arcane method. The 'Archon' was not an option unfortunately (but would have been nice). This tournament was a bit stricter than the previous Toronto tourney I had attended, but was still remarkably friendly. Aaron, Ahmed and Matt (my American guests) did manage to offend every Canadian at the tournament with with their complaints about Canadian money, bad driving and lack of personal firearms. I had to stress to the Torontonians that I was a fellow Canadian just so that my own obnoxiousness wouldn't be misconceived as anything other than just being Wes. Some of the players were accustomed to house rules or the old Jyhad rules and this made for a difficult first game for some. I think Meth B's deck was probably hurt by the vote-push rule but he seemed to fare well despite this. Unfortunately, Thomas (Oaflord) seems to have disappeared without posting an 'official' tournament report or posting the results of the tournament to the VEKN. Therefore, please accept my apologies for this report being both incomplete and completely Wes-o-centric. If I had known that I would be responsible for this, I would have taken better notes. GAME ONE Wes - Weenie Animalism (5 VP) Meth A (???) - Tzimisce Intercept Aaron Steele - Kendrick Toolbox Judy - Sheldon TOGP Meth B (???) - Ventrue Vote and Bleed I was able to sweep this game, mostly due to the other players not expecting the type of deck I brought with me. My Tzimisce prey was able to intercept me, but wasn't prepared to take 9 damage at long range over three rounds of combat. After Meshenka (?) went to torpor empty the turn after she came out, my prey was not able to recover in order to block my constant bleeds. Judy was a strong contender, but her TOGP did little against a weenie horde. As I recall, I Haven Uncovered and attacked Sheldon to cripple her ability to play TOGP while she was my grand-prey, in order to prevent her ousting my predator; I wanted that job myself. Meth B ended up at the finals table, but here his deck was crippled by losing minions to Judy's TOGP. He did however have enough pool to sit around until I was able to oust him. I ended up with 5 VPs and an early seat at the finals. GAME TWO Wes - Weenie Animalism Meth B (???) - Ventrue Vote and Bleed Ahmed - OBF/PRE Stelath Bleed Duncan - Ravnos Something or Other Matt - Presence Speed Bleed I was ousted fairly early into this game. Matt, my predator, had an Elysium the Arboretum out in his first turn, which pretty much shut down my Aid/CC combo. I also found it hard to get any Animalism skill cards into my hand until it was too late. The bleeds I made were happily deflected by Meth B (who had seen the combo the game before). I don't know the VP totals of this game unfortunately. Matt earned 1 VP for ousting me obviously, and I think Meth B ousted Ahmed and may have eventually removed Duncan and Matt. (Sorry for the lack of details--I think I went off to grab a coffee or something :) GAME THREE Wes - Weenie Animalism (3 VP) Matt - Presence Speed Bleed Aaron Steele - Kendrick Toolbox Peter - Toreador Bleed Meth B (???) - Ventrue Vote and Bleed I don't remember too much about this game other than that I ousted Matt within about four turns, prompting me to place him as my prey in the finals. I also by chance had Meth B as my predator again in the finals, though this was not necessarily a good thing. I faced Meth B in every game I played and I think we both had a healthy amount of respect for the capabilities of each others' deck (though you'd think I'd remember the guy's name... *forehead slap*). FINALS Wes - Weenie Animalism (4 VP) Matt - Presence Speed Bleed Meth C (???) - Arika Deflection Peter - Toreador Bleed Meth B (???) - Ventrue Vote and Bleed I went into the finals with 8 VP and was able to pick my place at the table. I had no idea what Meth C's deck did, but I knew the others. Seeing as I had ousted Matt so quickly and yet was also ousted quickly *by* him, I decided that he was better off in front of me than behind me. His deck also had some flaws that I had learned to take advantage of, not least of which being that he had no way to deflect my bleeds, and had admitted to me in game three that he only had ONE Majesty. I was almost ousted myself quite early. I went down to 3 pool but was able to oust Matt and then Meth C, within two turns, bringing my pool up to a respectable amount. Meanwhile, Peter had managed to oust Meth B, which was actually a good thing because I didn't have the intercept or the votes to stop him at that point. Peter had a powerful deck, but it was mostly non-stealth, and I had enough minions to consistently stop his bleeds. It was a long drawn out war of attrition between Peter and myself. With nobody to bounce to and slowly losing all his vampires to torpor, I was able to slowly but surely oust him. This was definitely the longest of the four games, and appropriately also the most tense. In total, I gained 12 VP, for which I am quite proud. It was a fun time for all and I walked away with a handful of rare cards, including such gems as Dan Murdock and two Mind Rapes. I'll hopefully be holding a Detroit/Windsor tournament soon, which I hope will give the Torontonians a chance to have a change of scenery and a chance to see even *worse* driving. WINNING DECK WITH COMMENTARY Name of Deck: Do Not Feed the Animals By: Wes CRYPT (12 Vampires) Anastasia Grey - 3 ani Leon - 3 ani Panagos Levidis - 3 ani Raziya Samater - 3 ani Shannon Price, the Whisperer - 3 ani Tommy - 3 ani Wendy Wade - 3 ani Dani - 2 ani Gillian Krader - 2 ani Vliam Andor - 2 ani Vliam Andor - 2 ani Navar - 1 ani LIBRARY (90 cards; 16 Masters, 74 Minion) 8 Animalism 2 Blood Doll 2 Effective Management Anarch Troublemaker Haven Uncovered Humanitas Zoo Hunting Ground 8 Computer Hacking 3 Raven Spy 2 Army of Rats J.S. Simmons, Esq Mr. Winthrop Murder of Crows Renegade Garou Tasha Morgan Tier of Souls 4 Guard Dogs 4 Wake with Evening's Freshness 21 Aid from Bats 14 Carrion Crows 4 Fake Outs 4 Dodge 2 Drawing out the Beast 2 Terror Frenzy Notes on function: Get out approximately five vampires (or four if you get out the Renegade Garou). Place Animalism on vampires. Each one should have superior if at all possible. Those that do not can equip retainers, etc. Bleed for two a *lot*, with every vampire possible, using bleed permanents or Computer Hacking, preferrably with the minions who have suprior Animalism. If blocked, play the main combo of Carrion Crows and Aid from Bats with other combat cards acting as support for that combo. At superior, this combo will do 3R damage at long range with an optional press. *Use* that press and then keep playing Aid from Bats until the opposing vampire is torpored. Carrion Crows stays in play for the duration of the combat. After a few vampires go down with this combo, nobody will want to block or be blocked by your vampires again. Although this combo is vulnerable to S:CE, in practice this did not end up being a problem. Every deck in the finals had Majesty as combat defense but there's only so many that can be included. Fortitude ends up being fairly useless against this combo since players will generally use cards such as Skin of Steels to prevent strikes rather than cards that prevent environmental damage. Skin of Steel to prevent Aid from Bats is redundant. Tap all of your guys and rely on wake ups to block bleeds or votes... or don't bother blocking. Alternatively, keep one guy as a designated blocker with Raven Spies and superior Animalism and keep a few wakes in hand. At peak, you'll be bleeding for at least 6 per turn which will not be blocked much of the time. Deflections don't hurt too much since you are only ever bleeding for two without any stealth. If you get deflected but don't want to mess up the blocking vampire, juts play an Aid from Bats to move to long. At the Toronto tournament, this was the only dedicated combat deck and therefore did not have to worry about using the dodges, maneuvers, DotB or Terror Frenzy. Those were in there mostly in case I went up against a Potence/Celerity deck. In such a case, it is vital that the vampires stay at long range as they often only have one or two blood on them. The Renegade Garou is actually quite helpful for this deck. His standard tactic is of course to rush anyone who has three blood or less, making him the bane of weenies or Minion Tap-reliant decks. Like the CC/Aid combo, he is also vulnerable to Majesty, but by constantly rushing tends to draw out enough of those cards that opposing Methuselahs' combat defense becomes limited. Also, his ability to rush *anyone* is handy. Many times when I needed to stop the progress of a strong predator or grand-predator, he was the one to do it. I also used him in almost every game to make deals. Don't bleed me and I'll rush your predator for example. Fake Out and Dodge also act as a limited defense for him if necessary.

On Wed, 23 May 2001 00:23:47 -0400, Wes wrote: >SHOTGUN RITUAL TORONTO TOURNAMENT REPORT Thanks for the report and deck list which I enjoyed reading, perhaps because it confirms my prejudices. I like your deck which is exactly the sort of weenie degenerate combat that I think works best. Unfortunately, I've just checked and I don't have enough Aid from Bats or Carrion Crows to build it. But the deck doesn't seem to have enough defense against your predator. How do you cope with classic stealth/bleed or vote decks? Shouldn't you have a bit more rush and intercept? And I know the problem about deciding which deck to play - must have been tricky when you came with so many of the other players. Often I wait until I'm sat at the first table - that way I know exactly how many players I'm up against. Andrew

Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: >On Wed, 23 May 2001 00:23:47 -0400, Wes wrote: >>SHOTGUN RITUAL TORONTO TOURNAMENT REPORT >Thanks for the report and deck list which I enjoyed reading, perhaps >because it confirms my prejudices. Yeah. Look at _all_ those Blood Dolls and Minion Taps... ;-) I suspect that this win confirms more that the "odd man out" in deck construction can use that to his advantage. Being the only weenie deck in the finals gave Wes an excellent advantage, which it seems he utilized to good effect. A quick early hit on a key vamp in a large cap deck can get everything rolling well for a deck like this. Well played, Wes!!! Regards, R. David Zopf guenh...@mindspring.com Atom Weaver

"Wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote in message news:<9efdp...@enews2.newsguy.com>... > SHOTGUN RITUAL TORONTO > TOURNAMENT REPORT > > Four of us left from Detroit on Saturday night in order to attend the > tournament in my former hometown of Toronto. You'd think that because I was > from Toronto that I would know my way around... but I suck with directions. > We ended up in Oakville at an over-priced hotel, where we played cards till > the wee hours. you should have a GPS !! > All four of us brought extra decks with us and frankly I don't think any of > us had any clue which deck to play the next day. We were all very quiet > about which deck we'd actually play. Of the three games played in the hotel, > not one of us played the same deck twice. Even two minutes before the first > game was to start I still had no idea which deck I wanted to play with. I > literally could *not* decide so I ended up flipping a coin. > > Heads - Weenie Politics - no disciplines > Tails - Weenie Animalism > > The Gods of Jyhad favoured my coin-toss and I played with the Animalism > deck. Had I gotten Heads, I would have gone down faster than a presidential > intern. i think a lot of player around have the same problem ! > WINNING DECK WITH COMMENTARY > > Name of Deck: Do Not Feed the Animals > By: Wes > > CRYPT (12 Vampires) > > Anastasia Grey - 3 ani > Leon - 3 ani > Panagos Levidis - 3 ani > Raziya Samater - 3 ani > Shannon Price, the Whisperer - 3 ani > Tommy - 3 ani > Wendy Wade - 3 ani > Dani - 2 ani > Gillian Krader - 2 ani > Vliam Andor - 2 ani > Vliam Andor - 2 ani > Navar - 1 ani > > LIBRARY (90 cards; 16 Masters, 74 Minion) > 8 Animalism > 2 Blood Doll > 2 Effective Management > Anarch Troublemaker > Haven Uncovered > Humanitas > Zoo Hunting Ground i would consider removing the humanitas;anarch troublemaker and the 2 effective management in favor of 2 dreams of the sphinx and 2 archon ivestigation. to speed up and also defend against stealth-bleed. > 8 Computer Hacking > 3 Raven Spy > 2 Army of Rats > J.S. Simmons, Esq > Mr. Winthrop > Murder of Crows > Renegade Garou > Tasha Morgan > Tier of Souls i think the slot of the murder of crow can be used better. > 4 Guard Dogs > 4 Wake with Evening's Freshness nuf to say! > 21 Aid from Bats > 14 Carrion Crows > 4 Fake Outs > 4 Dodge > 2 Drawing out the Beast > 2 Terror Frenzy i would consider putting only 4 terror frenzy. [ quoted text not captured ] a great deck but will have a hard time against a stealth-bleed or a vote deck ! congratulations for your winning! gothel david primogene ventrue of grenoble !!

Andrew wrote: >>Thanks for the report and deck list which I enjoyed reading, perhaps because it confirms my prejudices.>> Oh, Andrew. >>I like your deck which is exactly the sort of weenie degenerate combat that I think works best.>> Which is pretty hysterical, considering how Aid from Bats has been blasted as useless for about 6 years now. No one respects the Bats. >>But the deck doesn't seem to have enough defense against your predator. How do you cope with classic stealth/bleed or vote decks? Shouldn't you have a bit more rush and intercept?>> Yeah, mostly I'm just confused by this deck winning. Ok, I'm not really confused, but it doesn't really convince me that this deck style is particularly effective (i.e. I don't expect to see them sweeping all the tournaments any day soon...), more than anything, I assume it was being at the right place at the right time. The deck has limited bleed defenses, limited pool gain, and fewer untaps than I would think necessary. Don't get me wrong here--I think it is a good deck (heck, I play one incredibly similar, but with only 15 Bats), but I'd figure that it would jam up on Bats/Crows very quickly, as no one is going to block them--the bleeds of 2 just aren't that big of a threat. A combat deck would make short work of this deck, as well. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/bakija6 "She's a hero. She's not like us." -Giles

On Wed, 23 May 2001 12:00:47 GMT, R. David Zopf wrote: >>Thanks for the report and deck list which I enjoyed reading, perhaps >>because it confirms my prejudices. > >Yeah. Look at _all_ those Blood Dolls and Minion Taps... ;-) It wasn't what I was thinking of but it did use Blood Dolls for such pool gain as it had. And, of course, a weenie deck isn't going to use Minion Taps. And you certainly don't see any Ascendance or STI in there. One of the prejudices to which I was referring was the issue of "degenerate combat decks". These can be amusing, as in this case, but make the game scissors/paper/stone. The fact that Wes won the event because of a coin flip is telling. Of course, it's not enough to jump the right way - you have to be a competent player too and I'm sure Wes deserves praise in that regard. Andrew

"Andrew S. Davidson" <a...@csi.com> wrote > It wasn't what I was thinking of but it did use Blood Dolls for such > pool gain as it had. And, of course, a weenie deck isn't going to use > Minion Taps. And you certainly don't see any Ascendance or STI in > there. Frankly the Blood Dolls could have been left out of this deck as I barely made use of them at all. The minions need to bleed each turn... hunting slows everything down. It's better to push for that 6 pool from an oust than 1 pool from a Blood Doll/hunt, or at least that's how it seemed while playing. One game I recall that I had the Hunting Ground/Blood Doll thing going which was nice, but most of my income came from ousts. > One of the prejudices to which I was referring was the issue of > "degenerate combat decks". These can be amusing, as in this case, but > make the game scissors/paper/stone. The fact that Wes won the event > because of a coin flip is telling. Of course, it's not enough to jump > the right way - you have to be a competent player too and I'm sure Wes > deserves praise in that regard. I pride myself on my degeneracy :) I didn't win the tournament *because* I flipped a coin. I would have won had I chosen the deck rather than randomizing which one to play with. Not the same thing at all. I didn't make decisions within the game by flipping a coin either. Thanks for the praise everyone. Cheers, WES

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> wrote > > >>But the deck doesn't seem to have enough defense against your > predator. How do you cope with classic stealth/bleed or vote decks? > Shouldn't you have a bit more rush and intercept?>> > > Yeah, mostly I'm just confused by this deck winning. Ok, I'm not really > confused, but it doesn't really convince me that this deck style is > particularly effective (i.e. I don't expect to see them sweeping all the > tournaments any day soon...), more than anything, I assume it was being at the > right place at the right time. The deck has limited bleed defenses, limited > pool gain, and fewer untaps than I would think necessary. Don't get me wrong > here--I think it is a good deck (heck, I play one incredibly similar, but with > only 15 Bats), but I'd figure that it would jam up on Bats/Crows very quickly, > as no one is going to block them--the bleeds of 2 just aren't that big of a > threat. A combat deck would make short work of this deck, as well. I think part of the success was that it was the 'odd man out'. Nobody else had combat decks, though this really is more of a bruise and bleed. My defense against stealth/bleed decks was not to block and to occasionally rush them, though that did not work too well in the second game of the tournament. My defense against vote decks was much the same. Keeping one guy with superior Animalism and a few Raven Spies is a great deterrent to any vote deck. They *know* they'll lose a minion if they call a vote. The Ventrue deck found himself sacrificing one vampire just so he could call a vote with a second vampire, causing me to lose 10 pool to Parity Shifts in the final. The deck's advantage is speed. Unless I am equipping a retainer or forced to hunt, I am bleeding with everyone, usually for two each. Being deflected is not much of a problem for this deck as it's never for much pool and never at stealth. You can't ignore the bleeds for too long... Often it would be all four or five minions each bleeding for two. The deck does jam on Carrion Crows and Aid from Bats, but not as much as you'd think. There were times when I didn't have the combo in-hand and just bled anyway, assuming correctly that my prey would be too terrified to block. I don't know about combat decks frankly... I included Terror Freny and a lot of Fake Outs to deal with this but they weren't necessary in the end. The most I ever went up against was an opposing Carrion Crows. In fact, throughout the entire tourney I don't think any of my vampires were struck even once by another vampire's hands. Keep in mind that I didn't think there would be that many combat decks at a tournament, which was part of the reason I considered playing with it. Other than that, a lot of its success was pure luck, up to and including the coin toss heh. Cheers, WES

"arwall" <arw...@my-deja.com> wrote in > you should have a GPS !! I'm sorry? What is a GPS? [ quoted text not captured ] I took out the Humanitas as it was *never* used (actually maybe once to rescue another Meth's guy) but as for the others I am somewhat limited. I have no Dreams of the Sphinx, though I don't think it would have helped that much. Archon Investigation would have jammed my hand more than I needed, and I was never bled for that much anyway. The Anarch Troublemaker was used to oust my prey in at least two games. What I *do* need is more Haven Uncovered in order to take out problem vampires and also to cycle my combat cards. > > 8 Computer Hacking > > 3 Raven Spy > > 2 Army of Rats > > J.S. Simmons, Esq > > Mr. Winthrop > > Murder of Crows > > Renegade Garou > > Tasha Morgan > > Tier of Souls > > i think the slot of the murder of crow can be used better. Yeah, the Murder is gone. I want another Tier of Souls... maybe another Garou actually. > > 4 Guard Dogs > > 4 Wake with Evening's Freshness > > nuf to say! Huh? Are you saying this *is* enough or *isn't*? It seemed enough at the time, though a couple more wakes might work. > > 21 Aid from Bats > > 14 Carrion Crows > > 4 Fake Outs > > 4 Dodge > > 2 Drawing out the Beast > > 2 Terror Frenzy > > i would consider putting only 4 terror frenzy. Alas, I only own two Terror Frenzy. It could definitely replace the Drawing out the Beast though as this deck *needs* to stay at range. > a great deck but will have a hard time against a stealth-bleed or a > vote deck ! > congratulations for your winning! Thanks! Pretty much *every* deck I faced was a stealth-bleed ot a vote deck... Cheers, WES

Being "Methuselah A", and thus the first victim to fall to Wes' weenie deck, I can probably add an opinion or two as to part of his success.. > >>Thanks for the report and deck list which I enjoyed reading, perhaps > >>because it confirms my prejudices. > One of the prejudices to which I was referring was the issue of > "degenerate combat decks". These can be amusing, as in this case, but > make the game scissors/paper/stone. The fact that Wes won the event > because of a coin flip is telling. Of course, it's not enough to jump > the right way - you have to be a competent player too and I'm sure Wes > deserves praise in that regard. Firstly I'll start off by saying this was the first constructed tournament I'd ever attended, and had only inklings of the kind of decks I'd see when I arrived. Mine was built with an emphasis on combat and intercept, but was in no way ready to handle an relentless horde of bleeders. Wes' deck was in fact all over mine "like a fat kid on smarties".. 3 turns and 2 vamps (one being Meshenka) and a 4 master (out of 12 in the deck) hand jam later I think I realized by the time I was up and running, it was going to be too late. The kind of decks that win tournaments (i.e. highly focused - bleed/vote, etc) are usually looked down upon in our group; as is said frequently, any monkey can build a sneak and bleed deck.. We try to create more balanced imaginative decks, keep the game fun, rather than striving to win in our group; which I'm sure most do normally, but that doesn't win you tournaments I suppose. I'll know better next time though. Wes' deck did well IMO because of its relentless nature, common with most if not all weenie decks. He just didn't stop. Within the round I played against him, the combat aspect of his deck was not terribly fearsome, I simply had drawn no cards to even damage his vampires. Unlike the next round where I faired much better putting down my predator's minions. Generally though I didn't see many combat decks out there, so I imagine there wasn't really anyone to give him a run for his money in the combat sense. The constant micro bleeds, done in volume, were IMO what made his deck so effective. An odd recollection from the tournament was that aside from Wes, and another of his cronies, I saw practically NO significant bleeding efforts from the other methuselahs in the games I played in. Sure there was the odd attempt, but it seemed a very defensive lot on the whole. Still it was a decent learning experience, from a tournament perspective. An eye opener for sure. While the styles of decks that seem to win tournaments would leave a bad taste in my mouth if used during recreational play; I suppose that's part in parcel with trying to win a tournament. Now its time to experiment with all the decks I'd normally never use.. For next time ;) Congratulations Wes.. Adam

Wes wrote: >>The deck's advantage is speed. Unless I am equipping a retainer or forced to hunt, I am bleeding with everyone, usually for two each. Being deflected is not much of a problem for this deck as it's never for much pool and never at stealth. You can't ignore the bleeds for too long... Often it would be all four or five minions each bleeding for two.>> Yeah, my version of this deck is a bit slower (more vamps with ANI in the crypt--probably 4 or 5 of like Bear Paw, Devin Bisely, and Nigel or whatever), and has a lot more intercept (lots of Cat's Guidance, more Ravens, more Rats/Cats/Forced), and a lot more pool gain (about 6 blood dolls, hunting grounds, etc), but still has, like, 15 Aid from Bats and 7 Carrion Crows. It does fairly well, but I don't think I'd be man enough to play it in a tournament... It is good to see such a deck doing well, mostly 'cause it is funny (21 Aid from Bats. That kills me!). Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/bakija6 "She's a hero you see. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> wrote > > Yeah, my version of this deck is a bit slower (more vamps with ANI in the > crypt--probably 4 or 5 of like Bear Paw, Devin Bisely, and Nigel or whatever), > and has a lot more intercept (lots of Cat's Guidance, more Ravens, more > Rats/Cats/Forced), and a lot more pool gain (about 6 blood dolls, hunting > grounds, etc), but still has, like, 15 Aid from Bats and 7 Carrion Crows. It > does fairly well, but I don't think I'd be man enough to play it in a > tournament... > > It is good to see such a deck doing well, mostly 'cause it is funny (21 Aid > from Bats. That kills me!). What's even funnier is that I only had one Aid from Bats until a few weeks before I made this deck, remember? I had to trade with people gradually for them... they thought I was insane. Cheers, WES

"Adam" <aley...@rci.rogers.com> wrote > Being "Methuselah A", and thus the first victim to fall to Wes' weenie > deck, I can probably add an opinion or two as to part of his success.. Hey Adam! Sorry about forgetting your name... I didn't realize you were a lurker on this newsgroup. Good to see you. > Firstly I'll start off by saying this was the first constructed > tournament I'd ever attended, and had only inklings of the kind of > decks I'd see when I arrived. Mine was built with an emphasis on > combat and intercept, but was in no way ready to handle an relentless > horde of bleeders. Wes' deck was in fact all over mine "like a fat > kid on smarties".. 3 turns and 2 vamps (one being Meshenka) and a 4 > master (out of 12 in the deck) hand jam later I think I realized by > the time I was up and running, it was going to be too late. > The kind of decks that win tournaments (i.e. highly focused - > bleed/vote, etc) > are usually looked down upon in our group; Yeah... I think our local group has been a little too competitive lately, which is sort of an improvement from the non-sensical weirdness we had before. I tend to play with decks like the one I used *all* the time, though I do occasionally experiment when nobody is expecting it. > as is said frequently, any > monkey can build a sneak and bleed deck.. Yes, but they tend to be *very* messy too... throwing food all over the place, shitting on the floor and relentlessly hitting on the female monkeys. After the third time one smeared bananas all over my cards, I stopped inviting them. They *are* good at making decks though, you're right. > We try to create more > balanced imaginative decks, keep the game fun, rather than striving to > win in our group; which I'm sure most do normally, but that doesn't > win you tournaments I suppose. I'll know better next time though. It's still fun to play competitively... but yeah, there is something to be said for a relaxed environment. Tournaments are obviously a different thing altogether, though I've found in the two Toronto tourneys that players still like to make 'fun' decks which is kind of cool I think. > Wes' deck did well IMO because of its relentless nature, common with > most if not all weenie decks. He just didn't stop. Within the round > I played against him, the combat aspect of his deck was not terribly > fearsome, I simply had drawn no cards to even damage his vampires. > Unlike the next round where I faired much better putting down my > predator's minions. Generally though I didn't see many combat decks > out there, so I imagine there wasn't really anyone to give him a run > for his money in the combat sense. > The constant micro bleeds, done in volume, were IMO what made his deck > so effective. The combo itself is not *that* fearsome... but it is hard to defend against. Since the vampire only ever hits for 1R and most of the damage comes from environmental sources, it's difficult to stop unless you're specifically expecting it. Skin of Steel is great against POT decks but does little against this combo. You end up paying one blood to prevent one damage. Not very economical. Dodge prevents only one but the vampire takes 2R and is pressed to a second round... Pressing to end means you only get 3R but how often do people include presses these days unless they *are* a combat deck? Not very often around here... Majesty completely hoses the combo but was not as prolific in this tournament, more's the better. > An odd recollection from the tournament was that aside from Wes, and > another of his cronies, I saw practically NO significant bleeding > efforts from the other methuselahs in the games I played in. Sure > there was the odd attempt, but it seemed a very defensive lot on the > whole. Yeah, there was some serious defense going on... more intercepts than I normally see. This was good for me since I did not use stealth and being blocked actually helped me cycle cards. > Still it was a decent learning experience, from a tournament > perspective. An eye opener for sure. While the styles of decks that > seem to win tournaments would leave a bad taste in my mouth if used > during recreational play; I suppose that's part in parcel with trying > to win a tournament. Now its time to experiment with all the decks > I'd normally never use.. For next time ;) > > Congratulations Wes.. Thanks Methuselah A heh... I hope you're able to come down to Windsor for the tourney we're trying to put together. I'm thinking about two months time. If not, I hope to play you again next time I'm in Toronto! Cheers, WES

[snip] > Skin of Steel is great against POT decks but does little against this combo. > You end up paying one blood > to prevent one damage. Not very economical. > If someone is playing fortitude and the only damage prevention card they use is skin of steel then it's a poor use of that great discipline. Indomitability and unflinching persistence should always be in the mix. they're great for damage prevention and general combat defence. I guess that could lead me to a fortitude damage prevention module... Rolling Punches x2 Unflinching Persistence x4 Indomitability x4 Skin of Steel x2 Resilience x1 Skin of Rock x2

theventrue wrote: > > If someone is playing fortitude and the only damage prevention card they use > is skin of steel then it's a poor use of that great discipline. > Indomitability and unflinching persistence should always be in the mix. > they're great for damage prevention and general combat defence. I guess that > could lead me to a fortitude damage prevention module... > > Rolling Punches x2 > Unflinching Persistence x4 > Indomitability x4 > Skin of Steel x2 > Resilience x1 > Skin of Rock x2 I don't really agree here. There's only so much space you can devote to combat defense. The amount of Fortitude you list here would be not nearly sufficient enough to deal with a Potence rush deck. You only have 4 maneuvers, which are easily overcome. And only 4 "prevent all damage from strikes" cards, which are really the only thing that will save you. Preventing 1-3 points of damage with the other cards won't help when you're getting punched for 5 (and then Disarmed...). I'd say Skin of Steel and Skin of Rock are the only cards worth putting in as general-purpose prevention. Even the Skin of Rock is pretty sketchy, since most of the clans who can kill you with environmental damage are vulnerable to S:CE. And if you're the Ventrue (as your screen name suggests), then you should just have Skin of Steel and Majesty. No need for all that other fancy, less effective stuff. James -- James Hamblin ham...@math.wisc.edu "You seem to think you know it all Let me tell you something, you can't win." -- Pat McGee Band

"James Hamblin" <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote in message news:3B0C8AE6...@math.wisc.edu... [ quoted text not captured ] The other disciplines you are playing with would of course complement your combat defence. Skin of Steel isn't going to help you when the tremere sucks you dry in the first round, presses and then walks you. You mention potence rush. skin of steel and majesty are pretty useless against a decent potence rush deck. majesty is hosed by IG and if they know all you have left is skin of steel then you're going to run out pretty quick. i've always preferred mighty grapple over undead strength so you can press to the next round in case they play SoS. The only way to deal with potence rush is to maneuver and/or fight back. The above module i proposed is designed for flexibility, not just for surviving against one particular strategy.

> Dodge prevents only one but the vampire takes 2R and is pressed to a second > round... > Not really because dodging a strike negate all efects of the strike including press. Kajik

[ quoted text not captured ] No. A dodge negates all of the effects the strike would have on the dodging minion. It doesn't negate a press (e.g., dodging a superior Thrown Sewer Lid won't negate the press). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

pd...@aol.comANTISPAM (Peter D Bakija) wrote... > Yeah, my version of this deck >snip< still has, like, 15 Aid from Bats... snip > It is good to see such a deck doing well, mostly 'cause it is funny (21 Aid > from Bats. That kills me!). > This must be due to the US->Can AfB exchange rate... :-) Don't worry Peter, if you did have 21 AfB, I'm sure you couldn't do as much with it as Wes can in Toronto... DaveZ/Atom Weaver

"Wes" <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:9egk4...@enews2.newsguy.com... > > "arwall" <arw...@my-deja.com> wrote in > > > you should have a GPS !! > > I'm sorry? What is a GPS? > I think he means 'Global Positioning System' and not a v:tes card.

theventrue wrote: > > The other disciplines you are playing with would of course complement your > combat defence. > Skin of Steel isn't going to help you when the tremere sucks you dry in the > first round, presses and then walks you. ...but Majesty does help in that situation. And Skin of Rock (which I admit is useful if you don't also have Presence) helps you. > You mention potence rush. skin of steel and majesty are pretty useless > against a decent potence rush deck. Uh... actually, they're quite useful. > majesty is hosed by IG and if they know > all you have left is skin of steel then you're going to run out pretty > quick. i've always preferred mighty grapple over undead strength so you can > press to the next round in case they play SoS. ...and then in the second round, they can use their Majesty. > The only way to deal with > potence rush is to maneuver and/or fight back. That's really untrue. Trust me, I've been frequently dealt with by Ventrues with Skin of Steel and Majesty. > The above module i proposed is designed for flexibility, not just for > surviving against one particular strategy. I took it exactly as such. Just because I used an example doesn't mean I didn't consider others. What can't be dealt with by just Skin of Rock and Skin of Steel? In what situations would you need to have cards like Unflinching Persistence? If they're striking with unpreventable strikes, they'll still be unpreventable. If they need to be at a particular range, your 4 or so Unflinching Persistences won't be very significant. It's one thing to be "flexible", but if you're putting in substandard cards, there should be a reason. The whole idea of "modules" seems suspect because of this fact. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Hamblin" <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote in message news:3B0D88BC...@math.wisc.edu... [ quoted text not captured ] I can give you an example from last night's game about how substandard Indomitability is. I was playing grangrel stealth bleed (not much combat). Raven got into a fight with Gilbert Duane who had only one blood on him. With the Indom I was able to punch in the first round, prevent his, press to the second round and punch him into torpor. A skin of steel would have been useless in that case. If you know what decks you're up against, and are sure that you're going to sit next to a potence rush, then more skin of steels may be appropriate but when you don't know what you're going to be up against (most players in our group experiment with different strategies quite often) then i prefer to have a toolbox approach where you can deal with most things. If i'd had 8 skin of steels in my deck in last night's game it would have been 8 wasted slots.

theventrue wrote: > > I can give you an example from last night's game about how substandard > Indomitability is. I was playing grangrel stealth bleed (not much combat). > Raven got into a fight with Gilbert Duane who had only one blood on him. > With the Indom I was able to punch in the first round, prevent his, press to > the second round and punch him into torpor. A skin of steel would have been > useless in that case. That seems pretty insignificant. If you were a stealth-bleed deck, you shouldn't care about sending other vampires to torpor. Your Indomitability could have been another bleed card or another stealth card (and then maybe you wouldn't have been in that fight in the first place). It's one thing to play a "toolbox" deck, but it's quite another to put in cards which are only marginally useful. And this situation you describe seems pretty marginal. > If you know what decks you're up against, and are sure that you're going to > sit next to a potence rush, then more skin of steels may be appropriate but > when you don't know what you're going to be up against (most players in our > group experiment with different strategies quite often) then i prefer to > have a toolbox approach where you can deal with most things. If i'd had 8 > skin of steels in my deck in last night's game it would have been 8 wasted > slots. Wasted slots for _that_ game maybe. What about the next one? Of course you don't know what you'll be up against. But why play with marginally useful cards? You don't put in The Deadliest Sin "just in case" someone tries to diablerize one of your guys. Could that card ever be useful? Sure, but not very often. And how often will having a random press in your deck be useful? Not very often. Hell, if that Indomitability had been a Wolf Claws, you could have sent Gilbert Duane to torpor anyway. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 24 May 2001 17:18:36 -0500, James Hamblin <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote: > >theventrue wrote: >> >> The other disciplines you are playing with would of course complement your >> combat defence. >> Skin of Steel isn't going to help you when the tremere sucks you dry in the >> first round, presses and then walks you. > >...but Majesty does help in that situation. And Skin of Rock (which I >admit is useful if you don't also have Presence) helps you. What, you wouldn't Skin of Steel the Walk of Flame? =) I sure would. >> The above module i proposed is designed for flexibility, not just for >> surviving against one particular strategy. > >I took it exactly as such. Just because I used an example doesn't mean >I didn't consider others. > >What can't be dealt with by just Skin of Rock and Skin of Steel? In >what situations would you need to have cards like Unflinching >Persistence? If they're striking with unpreventable strikes, they'll >still be unpreventable. If they need to be at a particular range, your >4 or so Unflinching Persistences won't be very significant. It's one >thing to be "flexible", but if you're putting in substandard cards, >there should be a reason. The whole idea of "modules" seems suspect >because of this fact. Bugger that - I like the idea of good, basic "modules" that can be tweaked for individual purposes. The Fortitude prevent module he suggested is all whacked out, though, IMO. Instead of these 15 cards: > Rolling Punches x2 > Unflinching Persistence x4 > Indomitability x4 > Skin of Steel x2 > Resilience x1 > Skin of Rock x2 If I have mostly superior Fortitude, I'll use: Rolling w/ Punches x6 Superior Mettle x4 Resilience x4 Hidden Strength x1 If I have mostly INFERIOR Fortitude, then: Skin of Steel x8 Resilience x4 Rolling w/Punches x3 Agg damage is so rare that the disadvantage-superior of Resilience rarely comes into play. Skin of Steel is better for inferior FOR than Rolling, but its inferior still costs a blood. RWP can be cycled for free if you aren't next to a combat deck - very important. Superior Mettle shuts down all KINDS of combat decks -- but ONLY if you have superior FOR. And Hidden Strength can be a rude surprise, especially for pesky agg decks. Indomitability and Unflinching Persistence are for OFFENSIVE Fortitude decks. =) -- Derek [generic .signature file]

"James Hamblin" <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote in message news:3B0DD0AC...@math.wisc.edu... > > theventrue wrote: > > > > I can give you an example from last night's game about how substandard > > Indomitability is. I was playing grangrel stealth bleed (not much combat). > > Raven got into a fight with Gilbert Duane who had only one blood on him. > > With the Indom I was able to punch in the first round, prevent his, press to > > the second round and punch him into torpor. A skin of steel would have been > > useless in that case. > > That seems pretty insignificant. If you were a stealth-bleed deck, you > shouldn't care about sending other vampires to torpor. Your > Indomitability could have been another bleed card or another stealth > card (and then maybe you wouldn't have been in that fight in the first > place). It's one thing to play a "toolbox" deck, but it's quite another > to put in cards which are only marginally useful. And this situation > you describe seems pretty marginal. Gilbert can play 2nd's (which he was) and he has superior auspex, my deck can't routinely go to 5 stealth. i only called it stealth bleed for lack of a better term, it's really a toolbox with a leaning towards stealth bleed. marginal enough to be useful in one out of two games. > > > If you know what decks you're up against, and are sure that you're going to > > sit next to a potence rush, then more skin of steels may be appropriate but > > when you don't know what you're going to be up against (most players in our > > group experiment with different strategies quite often) then i prefer to > > have a toolbox approach where you can deal with most things. If i'd had 8 > > skin of steels in my deck in last night's game it would have been 8 wasted > > slots. > > Wasted slots for _that_ game maybe. What about the next one? Of course > you don't know what you'll be up against. But why play with marginally > useful cards? You don't put in The Deadliest Sin "just in case" someone > tries to diablerize one of your guys. Could that card ever be useful? > Sure, but not very often. And how often will having a random press in > your deck be useful? Not very often. Hell, if that Indomitability had > been a Wolf Claws, you could have sent Gilbert Duane to torpor anyway. > The deadliest sin is not a fair comparison, combat is a lot more common than one of your vamps being diablerized. Indomitability is not just a press, it prevents a damage as well, plus it's free so you're not spending resources like you do when you play skin of steel. Well Raven was only on one blood as a matter of fact so if the indomitability had been a wolf claws and i'd used it then she would have gone to torpor as well.

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:9rmrgtoomma3vp982...@4ax.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I wondered how long it would be before you waded in here. i agree with your resilience and rolling however you seem to be neglecting the defensive possibilities of IND and UP. how is SoS going to help you when someone throws a trap? I know that you included Superior mettle but if you're paying one every round for five odd rounds that's surely not as good as pressing to end?

On Fri, 25 May 2001 15:08:32 +1000, "theventrue" <chr...@comcen.com.au> wrote: >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:9rmrgtoomma3vp982...@4ax.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Directly depends on what's said, usually. >resilience and rolling however you seem to be neglecting the defensive >possibilities of IND and UP. how is SoS going to help you when someone >throws a trap? I know that you included Superior mettle but if you're paying >one every round for five odd rounds that's surely not as good as pressing to >end? Indomitability and Unflinching Persistence only provide their press and maneuver at superior - something to remember. If you've got mostly inferior FOR, they look just like RWP, Skin of Rock, and Resilience: bleh. For superior, I'd still rather have the Superior Mettle. Animalism Trap combat will beat it because of its use of environmental damage from Carrion Crows, but in most other decks, the Superior Mettle can keep you from being whacked around TOO badly, and can often still save you when someone has included a few press cards "just in case of Dodge", or for Tzimisce Trap/Horrid Form/etc. decks. Indomitability's "only prevent one" can really hurt when someone is chucking around 5 hand damage or 2 agg. If I'm worried that I might see a lot of Trap combat, I'll use more Hidden Strength... which provides an optional press at superior, allowing you to survive all kinds of stuff. But in general, I expect to be hit for a lot on the first/second round as opposed to being plinked at repeatedly. Safer that way, as Trap decks are vulnerable to S:CE and know it. [ quoted text not captured ]

> On Thu, 24 May 2001 17:18:36 -0500, James Hamblin > <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote: > >> >> theventrue wrote: >>> >>> The other disciplines you are playing with would of course complement your >>> combat defence. >>> Skin of Steel isn't going to help you when the tremere sucks you dry in the >>> first round, presses and then walks you. >> >> ...but Majesty does help in that situation. And Skin of Rock (which I >> admit is useful if you don't also have Presence) helps you. > > What, you wouldn't Skin of Steel the Walk of Flame? =) I sure would. I'm assuming that "sucks you dry" means to zero blood, not 1. Much as I try to make it true, Derek, not *all* minions with Fort-e-tood are loaded with Masochism counters to pay for the Skins of Steel and Hidden Strengths. =) -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta "You can't make a fact out of an opinion by raising your voice."

"theventrue" <chr...@comcen.com.au> wrote > I wondered how long it would be before you waded in here. i agree with your > resilience and rolling however you seem to be neglecting the defensive > possibilities of IND and UP. how is SoS going to help you when someone > throws a trap? I know that you included Superior mettle but if you're paying > one every round for five odd rounds that's surely not as good as pressing to > end? Most of the techniques you've mentioned (Trap, Undead Persistence, Mighty Grapple) are vulnerable to Strike: Combat Ends on the first and/or subsequent round(s) of combat. Assuming that your opponent played Immortal Grapple on the first round, they'll have to use *that* round to KO your vampire, or keep playing IGs. Therefore, Skin of Steel will prevent all the damage from the first round of combat, and hopefully there won't be another round. If there is, Majesty away... if they play another IG, play another Skin of Steel. It's not perfect, granted... but it's still more versatile than playing with all the FOR cards you mentioned. Skin of Steel pretty much covers most if not all of the bases. My damage prevention module: 8 Majesty 7 Skin of Steel Cheers, WES

On Fri, 25 May 2001 03:05:58 -0400, Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote: >> On Thu, 24 May 2001 17:18:36 -0500, James Hamblin >> <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote: >>> >>> theventrue wrote: >>>> >>>> The other disciplines you are playing with would of course complement your >>>> combat defence. >>>> Skin of Steel isn't going to help you when the tremere sucks you dry in the >>>> first round, presses and then walks you. >>> >>> ...but Majesty does help in that situation. And Skin of Rock (which I >>> admit is useful if you don't also have Presence) helps you. >> >> What, you wouldn't Skin of Steel the Walk of Flame? =) I sure would. > > I'm assuming that "sucks you dry" means to zero blood, not 1. > Much as I try to make it true, Derek, not *all* minions with Fort-e-tood >are loaded with Masochism counters to pay for the Skins of Steel and Hidden >Strengths. =) Heh. Sorry. Reflex Tremere habit - "stop trying to empty them so they'll burn. if you must play Walk, do it on round TWO so they go to torpor." I keep forgetting that Trap/Theft/Theft/Theft/Walk is still being gone after out there. =) Besides, I think he was thinking of the "walk on round 2" concept up there too. Just gotta have 3 blood to start with. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

>It's not perfect, granted... but it's still more versatile than playing with >all the FOR cards you mentioned. Skin of Steel pretty much covers most if >not all of the bases. Putting aside other disciplines and mono-Fortitude decks, my preferences at the moment are: Resilience - Greatest threat I expect is Carrion Crows. This has back up uses against potence. Hidden Strength - Immortal Grapple at superior gives a press, Aid from Bats at superior gives a press. Besides stopping those, there's always pressing to do more damage against noncombat. Seeing a fair amount of presses in combat lately. In my mind, there's no reason to ever use Indomitability over this. The number of times you need a press when you aren't preventing damage is really small. This stops Disarm, multiple aggro, Pulled Fangs, etc. Problem with damage prevention is that it either runs out or jams your hand depending on what you are facing. Against POT, I'd expect combat to be more like IG, Steel, press, die. Yes, if you start bringing in other disciplines for cards like Majesty, it's less likely, but once you start doing that, you can bring in all sorts of variables.

>> It's not perfect, granted... but it's still more versatile than playing with >> all the FOR cards you mentioned. Skin of Steel pretty much covers most if >> not all of the bases. > > Putting aside other disciplines and mono-Fortitude decks, my preferences at > the > moment are: > > Resilience - Greatest threat I expect is Carrion Crows. This has back up uses > against potence. > > Hidden Strength - Immortal Grapple at superior gives a press, Aid from Bats at > superior gives a press. Besides stopping those, there's always pressing to do > more damage against noncombat. Seeing a fair amount of presses in combat > lately. In my mind, there's no reason to ever use Indomitability over this. > The number of times you need a press when you aren't preventing damage is > really small. This stops Disarm, multiple aggro, Pulled Fangs, etc. I'm currently finding this and Masochism to be a fabulous combo. I always figured it would be, but it actually works pretty well in practice (now that I'm amassing Masochisms =). Controlling your taking just enough damage to get, say, one Masochism counter and then one more at the end of the round (at superior), which can be recycled back into another Hidden Strength to prevent 3 damage and get a press. And if you get too many counters, you can always blow them on things like playing Pulse of the Canaille at inferior (which I actually did last I had a deck like this) and other stuff you hate to spend blood on, but don't mind spending the counters. > Problem with damage prevention is that it either runs out or jams your hand > depending on what you are facing. Against POT, I'd expect combat to be more > like IG, Steel, press, die. Yes, if you start bringing in other disciplines > for cards like Majesty, it's less likely, but once you start doing that, you > can bring in all sorts of variables. I usually toss in one rush card somewhere in the deck. It's usually worth rushing *someone*, even if it's your "cross-table buddy" who is *also* jamming on prevention. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 29 May 2001 20:22:47 GMT, cur...@aol.com (Ian Lee) wrote: >Hidden Strength - Immortal Grapple at superior gives a press, Aid from Bats at >superior gives a press. Besides stopping those, there's always pressing to do >more damage against noncombat. Seeing a fair amount of presses in combat >lately. In my mind, there's no reason to ever use Indomitability over this. >The number of times you need a press when you aren't preventing damage is >really small. This stops Disarm, multiple aggro, Pulled Fangs, etc. And very, very, very important, both Hidden Strength and Resilience can be cycled for *free* if you are facing decks that just punch for 1. "Can't get into combat" is only a problem for decks that can visibly kick your ass - the Ventrue can usually get into a fight by simply bleeding for 1 and drawing a block, giving you the opportunity to play your prevent. The Brujah and Nossies, on the other hand, somehow always seem to look a lot "meaner" when bleeding for 1, almost as if they're daring you to block. >Problem with damage prevention is that it either runs out or jams your hand >depending on what you are facing. Against POT, I'd expect combat to be more >like IG, Steel, press, die. Yes, if you start bringing in other disciplines Hence the necessity to use Superior Mettle against Potence. [ quoted text not captured ]