Well, a local player felt in love with the psyche! and has developed two of
the most nasty multirush decks i have ever seen... So here they come. Both
are based on a given weapon, multirushing module and lots of psyches. 1 caps
do the work for ousting your prey. Bloat via minion tap-taste
Deck Name: Chainsaw massacre
Created By: Claudio
Description:
Crypt: (14 cards, Min: 4, Max: 40, Avg: 4,86)
---------------------------------------------
6 Jaroslav Pascek CEL for obf POT PRE 10, Brujah, Justicar
1 Smudge the Ignored none 1, Caitiff
1 Royce dom 1, Pander
1 Nik cel 1, Caitiff
1 Navar McClaren ani 1, Caitiff
1 March Halcyon for 1, Pander
1 Huang pro 1, Pander
1 Antoinette DuChamp cel pre 1, Caitiff
1 Angela Decker pre 1, Pander
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (12 cards)
4 Al`s Army Apparatus
6 Minion Tap
2 Rack, The
Action (15 cards)
3 Ambush
4 Bum's Rush
4 Harass
4 Nose of the Hound
Action Modifier (10 cards)
10 Freak Drive
Combat (47 cards)
5 Disguised Weapon
4 Infernal Pursuit
20 Psyche!
4 Skin of Night
6 Skin of Steel
8 Taste of Vitae
Equipment (6 cards)
6 Talbot's Chainsaw
--------------------------------------------------------------
Deck Name: Fatima assault
Created By: Claudio
Description:
Crypt: (14 cards, Min: 4, Max: 32, Avg: 4,00)
---------------------------------------------
6 Fatima al-Faqadi aus CEL for OBF QUI 8, Assamite
1 Nik cel 1, Caitiff
1 Antoinette DuChamp cel pre 1, Caitiff
1 Huang pro 1, Pander
1 Angela Decker pre 1, Pander
1 Navar McClaren ani 1, Caitiff
1 Royce dom 1, Pander
1 Smudge the Ignored none 1, Caitiff
1 March Halcyon for 1, Pander
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (8 cards)
8 Minion Tap
Action (15 cards)
3 Ambush
3 Bum's Rush
3 Clandestine Contract
3 Harass
3 Nose of the Hound
Action Modifier (10 cards)
10 Freak Drive
Combat (49 cards)
4 Infernal Pursuit
20 Psyche!
7 Pursuit
3 Skin of Night
4 Skin of Steel
3 Taste of Death
8 Taste of Vitae
Equipment (8 cards)
8 Assault Rifle
"Smiling Tom" <t...@almadrava.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:bdrq3s$p4i$1...@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Obviously, this are not for this deck, exchange them for either 4 second
tradition or 4 forgotten labyrinth
.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:09:38 +0200, "Smiling Tom" <t...@almadrava.net>
scrawled:
>Deck Name: Chainsaw massacre
>Created By: Claudio
>Description:
>
>Crypt: (14 cards, Min: 4, Max: 40, Avg: 4,86)
>---------------------------------------------
>6 Jaroslav Pascek CEL for obf POT PRE 10, Brujah, Justicar
[snip]
>Equipment (6 cards)
>6 Talbot's Chainsaw
Just to confirm, you do know Talbot's is NOT a melee weapon, and
Jaroslav's +2 damage is only on melee weapons, right?
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
Smiling Tom wrote:
> Well, a local player felt in love with the psyche! and has
> developed two of
> the most nasty multirush decks i have ever seen... So here
> they come. Both
> are based on a given weapon, multirushing module and lots
> of psyches. 1 caps
> do the work for ousting your prey. Bloat via minion tap-taste
2nd one looks nasty. That many Freaks/weenies, where is Fame :o)
Rob
--
Direct access to this group with http://web2news.comhttp://web2news.com/?rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
salem wrote:
>
> On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:09:38 +0200, "Smiling Tom" <t...@almadrava.net>
> scrawled:
>
> >Deck Name: Chainsaw massacre
> >Created By: Claudio
> >Description:
> >
> >Crypt: (14 cards, Min: 4, Max: 40, Avg: 4,86)
> >---------------------------------------------
> >6 Jaroslav Pascek CEL for obf POT PRE 10, Brujah, Justicar
> [snip]
> >Equipment (6 cards)
> >6 Talbot's Chainsaw
>
> Just to confirm, you do know Talbot's is NOT a melee weapon, and
> Jaroslav's +2 damage is only on melee weapons, right?
Confirmed :-)
Claudio knows Talbot's Chainsaw is not a melee weapon. He
just uses it for the rush ability it grants.
Greetings,
Damnans
robtreasure wrote:
>
> Smiling Tom wrote:
> > Well, a local player felt in love with the psyche! and has
> > developed two of
> > the most nasty multirush decks i have ever seen... So here
> > they come. Both
> > are based on a given weapon, multirushing module and lots
> > of psyches. 1 caps
> > do the work for ousting your prey. Bloat via minion tap-taste
>
> 2nd one looks nasty. That many Freaks/weenies, where is Fame :o)
2nd is the best one. It's simply amazing!!
However, Claudio's version of this deck does not include any
Minion Tap, but 3 Direct Intercention, 3 Fortitude Skills,
3 Secure Haven, 1 Dreams of the Sphinx, 1 The Barrens and no
Fame.
Note that lots of weenies bleed for lots. Specially when your
prey has no minions.
Greetings,
Damnans
Damnans wrote:
[snip]
>> 2nd one looks nasty. That many Freaks/weenies, where is Fame :o)>
> 2nd is the best one. It's simply amazing!!
>
> However, Claudio's version of this deck does not include any
> Minion Tap, but 3 Direct Intercention, 3 Fortitude Skills,
> 3 Secure Haven, 1 Dreams of the Sphinx, 1 The Barrens and no
> Fame.
I think a combo of the two might be good. 8 Minion Taps is a lot but
having none is dodgy.
Maybe 6 Taps, 1 Dreams, 2 Skillcards and bin one Infernal Pursuit or
summit else?
> Note that lots of weenies bleed for lots. Specially when your
> prey has no minions.
Funnily enough I saw that :o)
[ quoted text not captured ]
Smiling Tom wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Deck Name: Fatima assault
>> Action Modifier (10 cards)
> 10 Freak Drive
Just sat at work thinking some more about this powerhouse. I don't think
this is 'enough' Freak Drives. Not sure what you would bin to get more
but 15 (potentially 18) rushes!!!!! warrants more than 10 IMO.
Brutal deck.
<shakes head>
[ quoted text not captured ]
"robtreasure" <robtreasure....@web2news.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:4644...@web2news.com...
> Smiling Tom wrote:
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Deck Name: Fatima assault
> >
> > Action Modifier (10 cards)
> > 10 Freak Drive
>
> Just sat at work thinking some more about this powerhouse. I don't think
> this is 'enough' Freak Drives. Not sure what you would bin to get more
> but 15 (potentially 18) rushes!!!!! warrants more than 10 IMO.
>
> Brutal deck.
> <shakes head>
>
> Rob
Agreed, but there is always the same question attaining this terms. What to
remove?
I guess that those 3 taste of death are eager to be replaced for 3 more
freaks.
Change 2 minion taps for 2 skills
Perhaps we can diversify even more the rushes, adding a pair master:
contract instead of 2 of the non-stealth action rushes.
4 infernal pursuits for a barrens and a dreams of the sphinx and 2 more
freak dives, tunning it to 15 freak drives
IMHO it's the best multirush deck i have ever seen in play. Even better than
Tariq eats the World or Muaziz gets the Eye. But havent seen it face too
many gangrel decks, for instance. Perhaps an animalism deck may hose this
one, though the fact that it rushes from the very first turn fatima hits the
table, grants it a superb speed.
Smiling Tom
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Smiling Tom wrote:
> Agreed, but there is always the same question attaining this terms. What to
> remove?
I've been developing this deck for a few weeks now. If you want to read
any commentary, you can check out this link at The Path of Blood:
http://thepathofblood.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=354
Here's the current incarnation:
Deck Name: Fatima Multi-Rush
Created By: David Cherryholmes
Description:
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 4, Max: 32, Avg: 3.92)
---------------------------------------------
5 Fatima al-Faqadi aus CEL for OBF QUI 8, Assamite
1 Antoinette DuChamp cel pre 1, Caitiff
1 Basil obf 1, Pander
1 Julius qui ser 1, Caitiff
2 Sandra White none 1, Caitiff
1 Franciscus aus 1, Caitiff
1 Nedal cel nec 1, Caitiff
Library: (81 cards)
-------------------
Master (13 cards)
1 Barrens, The
1 Dreams of the Sphinx
2 Fame
1 Fortitude
1 Guardian Angel
1 Humanitas
1 Market Square
3 Minion Tap
1 Secure Haven
1 Tension in the Ranks
Action (16 cards)
3 Ambush
3 Bum's Rush
4 Clandestine Contract
3 Harass
3 Nose of the Hound
Action Modifier (12 cards)
12 Freak Drive
Combat (26 cards)
8 Psyche!
8 Pursuit
4 Skin of Steel
6 Taste of Vitae
Equipment (10 cards)
8 Assault Rifle
1 Ivory Bow
1 Rowan Ring
Combo (4 cards)
4 Swallowed by the Night
> Perhaps we can diversify even more the rushes, adding a pair master:
> contract instead of 2 of the non-stealth action rushes.
> 4 infernal pursuits for a barrens and a dreams of the sphinx and 2 more
> freak dives, tunning it to 15 freak drives
I've bounced around from 14 to 20 rushes. More is better, of course, but
16 Rush/ 12 Freaks seems to perform well.
A lot of what I might say with regards to tweaking your deck would boil
down to a matter of taste; I'll leave it to the reader to infer from my
decklist what I believe to be the right balance of cards. What I do want
to stress is that you do not have enough weapons in the deck. Until you
get the Assault Rifle, Fatima sits there while you ditch cards. Many
games, you'll have one in your opener but, unless I'm just cursed, many
games you won't. Even with ten weapons in an 80 card deck, I've had a few
games where I was pulling my pud waiting to get a gun. IMO, 8 guns out of
90 makes this deck fragile.
> IMHO it's the best multirush deck i have ever seen in play. Even better than
> Tariq eats the World or Muaziz gets the Eye. But havent seen it face too
> many gangrel decks, for instance. Perhaps an animalism deck may hose this
> one, though the fact that it rushes from the very first turn fatima hits the
> table, grants it a superb speed.
Combat in my local metagame is cranked through the roof, I've been playing
the deck for about a month now, and we play a few times a week (very
understanding wives, you know). So, I've tested it against several
things. I haven't hit DotB, but I do talk about how to deal with that in
the thread I linked to. You may want to view your Tastes and damage
prevention as a combined pool of slots, and tweak for what you expect to
see (DotB + Claws, obviously, would favor the latter).
It's not opposing combat that has given me any real problems, but rather
the funky stuff... Mind Rape, Temptation, PTO have each cost me games with
this deck. You can't cover every base, of course, but the 81st card was a
Secure Haven.
David Cherryholmes
Duke Radiology
P.E.T. Facility
(919) 684-7714
david.che...@duke.edu
Ok then, picking your comments and viewing david's deck, here is a rewriting
of ht efatima deck
Deck Name: Fatima assault
Created By: Tom
Description:
Crypt: (14 cards, Min: 4, Max: 32, Avg: 4,00)
---------------------------------------------
6 Fatima al-Faqadi aus CEL for OBF QUI 8, Assamite
1 Nik cel 1, Caitiff
1 Antoinette DuChamp cel pre 1, Caitiff
1 Huang pro 1, Pander
1 Angela Decker pre 1, Pander
1 Navar McClaren ani 1, Caitiff
1 Royce dom 1, Pander
1 Smudge the Ignored none 1, Caitiff
1 March Halcyon for 1, Pander
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (13 cards)
1 Barrens, The
2 Contract
2 Direct Intervention //** PTO, Sensory, mainly.
1 Dreams of the Sphinx
4 Minion Tap
2 Secure Haven//** Sensory, mind rape, etc. And obviously to contest a
given s.h. in play.
1 Tension in the Ranks
Action (13 cards)
2 Ambush
3 Bum's Rush
3 Clandestine Contract
2 Harass
3 Nose of the Hound
Action Modifier (10 cards)
10 Freak Drive
Combat (42 cards)
20 Psyche!
8 Pursuit
2 Skin of Night
6 Skin of Steel
6 Taste of Vitae
Equipment (12 cards)
12 Assault Rifle//** Guess this will grant 1 in the first 9-10 cards.
Smiling Tom wrote:
> Ok then, picking your comments and viewing david's deck,
> here is a rewriting
> of ht efatima deck
Don't think this one is as good. I'm not posting my version I just
knocked up on ELDB because, well, its mine :o)
[ quoted text not captured ]
[...]
> A lot of what I might say with regards to tweaking your deck would boil
> down to a matter of taste; I'll leave it to the reader to infer from my
> decklist what I believe to be the right balance of cards. What I do want
> to stress is that you do not have enough weapons in the deck. Until you
> get the Assault Rifle, Fatima sits there while you ditch cards.
This problem would almost vanish if you used 18-20 Psyches, since these cards
are very easy to cycle (either played at superior or at inferior).
[...]
> It's not opposing combat that has given me any real problems, but rather
> the funky stuff... Mind Rape, Temptation, PTO have each cost me games with
> this deck. You can't cover every base, of course, but the 81st card was a
> Secure Haven.
You have those problems because your deck is weaker than Claudio's.
First of all, Claudio's deck has 3 Direct Intercention and 3 Secure
Haven (this card is both used as a protection and as a way to contest
another Secure Haven on the table).
Second. Claudio's deck is not stopped by S:CE, Rötschreck, and yours
is (you only play 8 Psyche and he plays with 19).
Third. Claudio has been playing and tweaking this deck for more than
a year and knows that he must torporize almost every vampire on the
table (this will depend on the situation). He usually starts
torporizing his prey's vampires, and some of his predator's (the
ones that might seem more dangerous).
When he plays that deck, we already no that we can do little against
Claudio, unless we play a deck built to counter his. And he usually
wins. We let him play that deck because we know games are short when
Fatima is out there :) (so not much suffering for us).
However, he has not played that deck at a tournament yet >:) Thank God :)
Greetings,
Damnans
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Damnans wrote:
[snip]
> When he plays that deck, we already no that we can do little against
> Claudio, unless we play a deck built to counter his. And he usually
> wins. We let him play that deck because we know games are short when
> Fatima is out there :) (so not much suffering for us).
Seems to me the way to stop this deck would be to block Fatima's first
rush with a disposable minion. Fatima has inferior fortitude and can't
Freak Drive when blocked. If this deck tears up tables every time it's
played, I'm sure other players would offer rescues to keep a blocker out
of torpor. Sure, there'd still be pool loss to Tension, but that's better
than the alternative.
How does Claudio deal with tactics like that?
-Matt
"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@eris.io.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.030701...@eris.io.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
2 or 3 fortitude skills. Also, note that both Clandestine Contract and Nose
of the Hound are at +1 stealth, so, not blockable by every deck, not to say
by what expendable vamps are able to.
> -Matt
>
"robtreasure" <robtreasure....@web2news.net> escribió en el mensaje
news:4652...@web2news.com...
> Smiling Tom wrote:
> > Ok then, picking your comments and viewing david's deck,
> > here is a rewriting
> > of ht efatima deck
>
> Don't think this one is as good. I'm not posting my version I just
> knocked up on ELDB because, well, its mine :o)
>
Booooo!!!!! That's unfair! :-P
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Damnans wrote:
> This problem would almost vanish if you used 18-20 Psyches, since these cards
> are very easy to cycle (either played at superior or at inferior).
Remember, we're talking about Fatima *before* she gets a gun. If you
start combat over again and again, that's Fatima taking a point of damage
again and again and again. Fatima with very little blood presents
problems with Freak Driving to drive the deck forward. Oh wait, since he
doesn't play with any Fortitude skill cards or stealth, those freaks are
just there look pretty in his hand. And please don't tell me about how
she'll taste or use one of the few additional strike cards. Weighed
against 20 Psyches.... she's going to be playing a bunch of Psyches and
not much else (saved you a "Syndrome Moment" there).
> You have those problems because your deck is weaker than Claudio's.
Thanks for the tip.
> First of all, Claudio's deck has 3 Direct Intercention and 3 Secure
> Haven (this card is both used as a protection and as a way to contest
> another Secure Haven on the table).
I never feel like I've got all the masters I want in any deck. I went
with the twelve that I thought were most necessary. Sure, I've been
punked with a few cards, but mostly the minions who would be playing those
cards are dead before they get the chance. DI means you're playing with a
hand size of six until someone does something sufficiently nasty to
you. Even though my deck doesn't actually cycle combat cards like mad
(maxim: usually the Assault rifle is *all you need*), it is critical that
you keep the freaks and the disperate rush actions flowing. DI impedes
this. But, hey, it'll save your ass, so it's a judgement call. I only
have one Secure Haven, but I'm also running eighty cards, so I'd say we're
both in the ballpark on that one (does he have Dreams and Barrens? Can't
remember... good for ditching waste guns).
> Second. Claudio's deck is not stopped by S:CE, Rötschreck, and yours
> is (you only play 8 Psyche and he plays with 19).
How often are you going to really need it? I don't just spooge cards out
of my hand because I can. I've had up to ten in the deck, but eight seems
ok. Between the psyches, many many rushes, and permenant contract rush, I
haven't found S:CE to be any real impediment. I also have proportionally
more additional strikes, so I only really have to have the Psyche against
the S:CE guys.
> Third. Claudio has been playing and tweaking this deck for more than
> a year and knows that he must torporize almost every vampire on the
> table (this will depend on the situation). He usually starts
> torporizing his prey's vampires, and some of his predator's (the
> ones that might seem more dangerous).
What's your point? It also sounds like your group is a little quick to
gang-bang. Sure the decks a threat; good decks are. It's still going to
take him some time to actually oust someone after he's erased their
minions (especially since his oh-so-much-better rush deck never saw fit to
include Fame or Tension).
> When he plays that deck, we already no that we can do little against
> Claudio, unless we play a deck built to counter his. And he usually
> wins. We let him play that deck because we know games are short when
> Fatima is out there :) (so not much suffering for us).
I like my deck, but I wouldn't rate it so high as to say the whole damn
table can do "little" against it. Damage gets prevented, strikes get
dodged, S:CE happens. Over the course of the game, I think I've got these
things addressed, but I haven't had many games (only a few) where I put
everyone into the mode of sitting around with their thumbs up their butt.
> However, he has not played that deck at a tournament yet >:) Thank God :)
Played it once. Got too caught up in fending off a really aggressive
weenie deck to get more than my first prey, then got my ass Arika'd the
round after that.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, robtreasure wrote:
> Don't think this one is as good. I'm not posting my version I just
> knocked up on ELDB because, well, its mine :o)
Tease. ;)
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Matthew T. Morgan wrote:
> Seems to me the way to stop this deck would be to block Fatima's first
> rush with a disposable minion. Fatima has inferior fortitude and can't
> Freak Drive when blocked. If this deck tears up tables every time it's
> played, I'm sure other players would offer rescues to keep a blocker out
> of torpor. Sure, there'd still be pool loss to Tension, but that's better
> than the alternative.
That's why you need to have FOR or stealth. Originally, I had Forgotten
Labyrinths, but I yielded a little stealth for the flexibility of
SbtN. OTOH, even if she isn't going "turbo", a few turns of one solid
rush isn't the end of the world, and it sure as hell isn't like they're
walking away from the block (usually).
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <bdrq3s$p4i$1...@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>,
"Smiling Tom" <t...@almadrava.net> mumbled something about:
>Well, a local player felt in love with the psyche! and has developed two of
>the most nasty multirush decks i have ever seen... So here they come. Both
>are based on a given weapon, multirushing module and lots of psyches. 1 caps
>do the work for ousting your prey. Bloat via minion tap-taste
>>Crypt: (14 cards, Min: 4, Max: 40, Avg: 4,86)
>---------------------------------------------
>6 Jaroslav Pascek CEL for obf POT PRE 10, Brujah, Justicar
Has inferior Fortitude, and cannot play Freak Drive when his Rush is
blocked.
>Master (12 cards)
>4 Al`s Army Apparatus
>6 Minion Tap
>2 Rack, The
No FOR skill cards here...
>Action (15 cards)
>3 Ambush
>4 Bum's Rush
>4 Harass
>4 Nose of the Hound
And only 4 stealthy actions here...
>Action Modifier (10 cards)
>10 Freak Drive
And no stealth. Jaroslav will rarely be able to rush more than once a
turn, without some OBF stealth added.
>Equipment (6 cards)
>6 Talbot's Chainsaw
Not to mention that this isn't a melee weapon.
>Crypt: (14 cards, Min: 4, Max: 32, Avg: 4,00)
>---------------------------------------------
>6 Fatima al-Faqadi aus CEL for OBF QUI 8, Assamite
Same problem. Inferior Fortitude -- cannot play Freak Drive when her
Rush action gets blocked.
>Master (8 cards)
>8 Minion Tap
No FOR skill cards...
>Action (15 cards)
>3 Ambush
>3 Bum's Rush
>3 Clandestine Contract
>3 Harass
>3 Nose of the Hound
Slightly better. 6 Rush actions.
>Action Modifier (10 cards)
>10 Freak Drive
And no stealth.
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Smiling Tom wrote:
> 2 or 3 fortitude skills. Also, note that both Clandestine Contract and Nose
> of the Hound are at +1 stealth, so, not blockable by every deck, not to say
> by what expendable vamps are able to.
Now I'm confused. Is this "Claudio's" deck the same one you posted
initially? That deck didn't have jack in it except for Minion Taps. No
stealth, no FOR, no Fame, no TitR.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> escribió en el mensaje
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.03070...@petsparc.duhs.duke.edu...
> On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Smiling Tom wrote:
>
> > 2 or 3 fortitude skills. Also, note that both Clandestine Contract and
Nose
> > of the Hound are at +1 stealth, so, not blockable by every deck, not to
say
> > by what expendable vamps are able to.
>
> Now I'm confused. Is this "Claudio's" deck the same one you posted
> initially? That deck didn't have jack in it except for Minion Taps. No
> stealth, no FOR, no Fame, no TitR.
>
My first post was more of a general draw of the deck, as I have been
thinking about it during last days. After Rob Treasure comments, yours -and
your deck- and the comments from damnans, who has seen it in action more
than I, I've posted a revision of it. But I'll say that deck sticks out of
fame, though a TitR would work great. Sorry if I'd confused you with all
these.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Smiling Tom" <t...@almadrava.net> wrote in message news:<bdsfi2$3tr$1...@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>...
> It has been discused on the rest of the thread, look my last reply to main,
> above
Wht about D Weapons, I see none of them... so how are you suposed to
equip the rifle?. 'Bout the FOR/drive Question, why not adding some
swalloed by night (extra maneurver) and some cloak just to be able to
rush unblocked or you can some stealth bleed with the weenies...
Iñaki, Prince of Barcelona.-
"Ego_Sum" <inaki.pu...@estudiant.upc.es> escribió en el mensaje
news:3ca8580b.03070...@posting.google.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Ejem. Upon disguised weapon...Do I have to remind you, my most honourable
prince and honorific cardinal, the special ability of fatima Al Faqadi?
For the swallowed, well, yes. Replacing the pursuits for swallowed might get
a point. But I'm sure you really don't want me to really build this deck on
your domains :-P
> Iñaki, Prince of Barcelona.-
"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@eris.io.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.030701...@eris.io.com...
> On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Damnans wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > When he plays that deck, we already no that we can do little against
> > Claudio, unless we play a deck built to counter his. And he usually
> > wins. We let him play that deck because we know games are short when
> > Fatima is out there :) (so not much suffering for us).
>
> Seems to me the way to stop this deck would be to block Fatima's first
> rush with a disposable minion. Fatima has inferior fortitude and can't
> Freak Drive when blocked.
This just causes the loss of the disposable minion. This does not stop
this deck, since Fatima will rush your other minion on her next turn, or
she will get superior Fortitude sooner than later.
> If this deck tears up tables every time it's
> played, I'm sure other players would offer rescues to keep a blocker out
> of torpor. Sure, there'd still be pool loss to Tension, but that's better
> than the alternative.
>
> How does Claudio deal with tactics like that?
He torporizes the entire table :)
Nobody dares confront Fatima's wrath.
Greetings,
Damnans
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Damnans wrote:
> This problem would almost vanish if you used 18-20 Psyches, since these cards
> are very easy to cycle (either played at superior or at inferior).
Chewed on your post some more over the past day and had a few more
thoughts....
First off, I've gotten it straight that you aren't talking about the deck
that Tom & etc. initially posted. Sorry about missing that. I still
think SbtN is too good a card to ignore for this deck, but he's obviously
working on the FOR angle.
> Second. Claudio's deck is not stopped by S:CE, Rötschreck, and yours
> is (you only play 8 Psyche and he plays with 19).
How many decks are going to play 8 Rotschrecks? I'd venture almost none
and, given that there's always going to be a counter to your deck, I'll
accept that the guy with a PILE of Rotschrecks might give me
problems. Otherwise I'll apply "all other things being equal" and say 8
Psyches is a sufficient counter to Rotschreck. Even were a Rotschreck to
actually land, there's always the decent probability that Fatima can Freak
off the rush, get rescued by a nerd, and continue the carnage.
> Third. Claudio has been playing and tweaking this deck for more than
> a year and knows that he must torporize almost every vampire on the
> table (this will depend on the situation). He usually starts
> torporizing his prey's vampires, and some of his predator's (the
> ones that might seem more dangerous).
He only needs to torp EVERY SINGLE VAMPIRE because he's not playing with
Fame (which makes his deck inferior). Sans Fame, he has to oust with
nerds bleeding for one, which any old blocker can stop. Fame +
Contract/Clandestine means that he can just keep rescuing that guy over
and over, with Fatima if necessary, and it ousts much faster. He also
only needs to torpor every vampire if he's playing for the sweep. This is
unnecessary and, as you note, draws down the table on you. Much better to
nudge the table into collapsing into the right kind of three-way and
proceed with the curbstomping from there. I don't know if you caught my
post in another thread, but one of the things that makes this archetype
good is that you can project the image of a much slower rush deck if
choose to, and then get up and "lunge" when necessary.
[ quoted text not captured ]
>> Second. Claudio's deck is not stopped by S:CE, Rötschreck, and yours
>> is (you only play 8 Psyche and he plays with 19).> How many decks are going to play 8 Rotschrecks? I'd venture almost none
> and, given that there's always going to be a counter to your deck, I'll
> accept that the guy with a PILE of Rotschrecks might give me
> problems. Otherwise I'll apply "all other things being equal" and say 8
How does Psyche help againt Rotschreck?
Rot sends you to torpor and Psyche can only be played when you are still
ready...
>> Third. Claudio has been playing and tweaking this deck for more than
>> a year and knows that he must torporize almost every vampire on the
>> table (this will depend on the situation). He usually starts
>> torporizing his prey's vampires, and some of his predator's (the
>> ones that might seem more dangerous).> He only needs to torp EVERY SINGLE VAMPIRE because he's not playing with
> Fame (which makes his deck inferior). Sans Fame, he has to oust with
> nerds bleeding for one, which any old blocker can stop. Fame +
> Contract/Clandestine means that he can just keep rescuing that guy over
> and over, with Fatima if necessary, and it ousts much faster. He also
> only needs to torpor every vampire if he's playing for the sweep. This is
> unnecessary and, as you note, draws down the table on you. Much better to
> nudge the table into collapsing into the right kind of three-way and
> proceed with the curbstomping from there. I don't know if you caught my
> post in another thread, but one of the things that makes this archetype
> good is that you can project the image of a much slower rush deck if
> choose to, and then get up and "lunge" when necessary.
Maybe he WANTS to go fo the sweep. Even so I would have thought that a Fame
or two would be worth having.
Timlagor wrote:
> How does Psyche help againt Rotschreck?
> Rot sends you to torpor and Psyche can only be played when you are still
> ready...
Röt ends combat while you are still ready. It doesn't send you to torpor
until after. When combat is ending (and you're still ready), you play
Psyche!. This starts a new combat and voids the remainder of the effect
of Rötschreck.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> escribió en el mensaje
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.03070...@petsparc.duhs.duke.edu...
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Damnans wrote:
> > This problem would almost vanish if you used 18-20 Psyches, since these
cards
> > are very easy to cycle (either played at superior or at inferior).> Remember, we're talking about Fatima *before* she gets a gun. If you
> start combat over again and again, that's Fatima taking a point of damage
> again and again and again.
Which she might prevent using Fortitude (more card cycling).
She could also use Pursuits to maneuver or to get additional strikes.
She could also use Infernal Pursuit or play Taste of Vitae.
That's not a problem.
> Fatima with very little blood presents
> problems with Freak Driving to drive the deck forward. Oh wait, since he
> doesn't play with any Fortitude skill cards or stealth, those freaks are
> just there look pretty in his hand. And please don't tell me about how
> she'll taste or use one of the few additional strike cards. Weighed
> against 20 Psyches.... she's going to be playing a bunch of Psyches and
> not much else (saved you a "Syndrome Moment" there).
He, he... My syndrome is mine and I'll do what I want with it :-P
Jokes aside, you are not being realistic here, since those cards can be
easily cycled by attacking a weak minion on the table.
[...]
> > First of all, Claudio's deck has 3 Direct Intercention and 3 Secure
> > Haven (this card is both used as a protection and as a way to contest
> > another Secure Haven on the table).> I never feel like I've got all the masters I want in any deck. I went
> with the twelve that I thought were most necessary. Sure, I've been
> punked with a few cards, but mostly the minions who would be playing those
> cards are dead before they get the chance.
Yep, that's true as well :-)
[...]
> does he have Dreams and Barrens? Can't
> remember... good for ditching waste guns).
Yes, he has both cards.
> > Second. Claudio's deck is not stopped by S:CE, Rötschreck, and yours
> > is (you only play 8 Psyche and he plays with 19).> How often are you going to really need it? I don't just spooge cards out
> of my hand because I can.
Of course not. You must play them wisely, and you may need to cycle
cards fast when necessary.
Besides, if 2 or more Methuselahs at the table play decks whose
combat defense is based on S:CE (which is quite likely in tournament
play: vote decks, for instance), eight Psyches will not be enough.
[...]
> > Third. Claudio has been playing and tweaking this deck for more than
> > a year and knows that he must torporize almost every vampire on the
> > table (this will depend on the situation). He usually starts
> > torporizing his prey's vampires, and some of his predator's (the
> > ones that might seem more dangerous).> What's your point? It also sounds like your group is a little quick to
> gang-bang.
I would simply say, most of our decks are not prepared to confront
Claudio's.
> Sure the decks a threat; good decks are. It's still going to
> take him some time to actually oust someone after he's erased their
> minions (especially since his oh-so-much-better rush deck never saw fit to
> include Fame or Tension).
You underestimate weenie hordes :-) Claudio prefers to add more
Fortitude Skill cards (which are really more important than Tension in the
Ranks and Fame, for they allow effective multi-rush) and Secure Havens
instead.
[...]
Greetings,
Damnans
On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:48:46 -0400, LSJ wrote:
> Timlagor wrote:>> How does Psyche help againt Rotschreck?
>> Rot sends you to torpor and Psyche can only be played when you are still
>> ready...>
> Röt ends combat while you are still ready. It doesn't send you to torpor
> until after. When combat is ending (and you're still ready), you play
> Psyche!. This starts a new combat and voids the remainder of the effect
> of Rötschreck.
Oh wow. That's so nice. Thanks for mentioning this one :-)
[...]
> First off, I've gotten it straight that you aren't talking about the deck
> that Tom & etc. initially posted. Sorry about missing that. I still
> think SbtN is too good a card to ignore for this deck, but he's obviously
> working on the FOR angle.
I will post his deck ASAP.
> > Second. Claudio's deck is not stopped by S:CE, Rötschreck, and yours
> > is (you only play 8 Psyche and he plays with 19).> How many decks are going to play 8 Rotschrecks?
Almost none, I think, but take into account that Claudio does not want to
FAIL in combat. He actually must not fail in combat, if he wants his deck
to work. That's why 18-20 Psyches are vital.
[...]
> > Third. Claudio has been playing and tweaking this deck for more than
> > a year and knows that he must torporize almost every vampire on the
> > table (this will depend on the situation). He usually starts
> > torporizing his prey's vampires, and some of his predator's (the
> > ones that might seem more dangerous).
>
> He only needs to torp EVERY SINGLE VAMPIRE because he's not playing with
> Fame (which makes his deck inferior). Sans Fame, he has to oust with
> nerds bleeding for one, which any old blocker can stop.
Well, his weenies employ Tasha Morgan, J.S. Simmons, ....(I'll post his deck
ASAP,
didn't I tell that above? :-D )
However, Fame and TitR would make his deck more effective. I will have a
look
at his deck and see which two master cards should be dropped.
[...]
> I don't know if you caught my
> post in another thread, but one of the things that makes this archetype
> good is that you can project the image of a much slower rush deck if
> choose to, and then get up and "lunge" when necessary.
He, he... I know. But that's not Claudio's style >:-)
Greetings,
Damnans
On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, Damnans wrote:
> Which she might prevent using Fortitude (more card cycling).
Which were all Skin of Steel, correct? I'm not saying she's going to get
pounded; I'll assume you picked an innocuous minions to cycle your hand
on. But that's still costing you a blood per, and that most certainly
adds up in a deck that plans to freak with a bunch with one minion. Now,
if things go well, you could end up knocking four blood off her, finally
getting to your AR, and then tasting back that four and be good to
go. That, I think, is your point. My point is that there are an
uncomfortable number of games (a gazillion draws from ELDB confirm
this) where you won't see the first gun until 20 cards down or so, and
that was 8 out of 80. 8 out of 90 is much worse, so I conclude that
"cycling the Psyches" will more often than not result in a dangerously low
Fatima. It sucks either way, but I think it is better to sit there and
ditch cards and look like a non-threat while the rest of the table spends
their 15 pool for you. That's where lunging is good.
> She could also use Pursuits to maneuver or to get additional strikes.
Syndrome!
> She could also use Infernal Pursuit or play Taste of Vitae.
Syndrome! OK... you do have a fair chunk of tastes but... ouch! Playing
them for one. Guess you do what you gotta do.
> That's not a problem.
Not in the that magical Spanish land where statistics is yo' beeyatch, it
isn't.
> He, he... My syndrome is mine and I'll do what I want with it :-P
And you do it well, I might add.
> Jokes aside, you are not being realistic here, since those cards can be
> easily cycled by attacking a weak minion on the table.
No, our decks are essentially the same, except on four points:
1) Number of Psyches
2) Number of weapons
3) Fame
4) Inclusion of stealth cards
Your point is predicated upon the idea that I have not enough Psyches, and
that they can be easily cycled to get to the gun if you don't have
one. You can only cycle as many Psyches as the opposing minion has
blood. Each Psyche you cycle is going to cost Fatima a blood. This adds
up. Your friend's deck put almost all his eggs in the Psyche Basket and
not enough weapons, and I think this makes the deck fragile.
> Besides, if 2 or more Methuselahs at the table play decks whose
> combat defense is based on S:CE (which is quite likely in tournament
> play: vote decks, for instance), eight Psyches will not be enough.
IME, decks that rely heavily on S:CE also tend to have a few large minions
(or at least not many many small ones). Multi-rush will take care of this
if the one Psyche in hand that you're likely to need doesn't. Remember,
we're talking assault rifles here. And this is purely anecdotal but, IME,
8 Psyches is enough. I'm sure it comes down to the differences in
metagames, but I'm much more concerned with getting my One Vampire
Wonder's ass kicked that I am getting foiled by combat defense. It sounds
like the Spanish Crew needs to discover this cool new thing called
"striking at range".
> I would simply say, most of our decks are not prepared to confront
> Claudio's.
Then I guess his deck does rock the hizz'ouse, but does that make it a
great deck, or just a deck that runs in a game full of people butt-welded
to S+B and PTO?
> You underestimate weenie hordes :-)
This is ironic on.... so many levels. But how can I underestimate it when
our decks are virtually identical in that respect? I do bleed for one
after I've cleared the way. And I play Fame. And I play Tension in the
Ranks.
> Claudio prefers to add more
> Fortitude Skill cards (which are really more important than Tension in the
> Ranks and Fame, for they allow effective multi-rush) and Secure Havens
> instead.
Yeah, I actually have two FOR skill cards in my deck, not one. I looked
at it when I got home yesterday and it's actually crept up to a sloppy 83
cards.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <1cblc0918s1ef$.tur1qc9...@40tude.net>, Timlagor
<Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>> Röt ends combat while you are still ready. It doesn't send you to torpor
>> until after. When combat is ending (and you're still ready), you play
>> Psyche!. This starts a new combat and voids the remainder of the effect
>> of Rötschreck.>
>Oh wow. That's so nice. Thanks for mentioning this one :-)
Reading all of:
http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR512.txt
should help.
I even understand it! It's great against Rotschreck, though, since both
Psyche! and Telepathic Tracking are great general purpose cards for
other reasons, and Fast Reaction is playable, if not great. The
Tzimisce, Toreador, Tremere, Brujah and Assamites all get good access to
anti-Rotschreck defence, as a result. The Gangrel, the Lasombra and the
Nosferatu don't but, hey-ho, sucks to be them.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D
On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, Damnans wrote:
> Almost none, I think, but take into account that Claudio does not want to
> FAIL in combat. He actually must not fail in combat, if he wants his deck
> to work. That's why 18-20 Psyches are vital.
Failing in combat can be getting foiled by S:CE or prevention. It can
also be getting hit back for more than you can handle. I'm more concerned
about the latter. Massive obedience, a likelier candidate for "pile of
twenty" by the way, will still foil you regardless of Psyche.
> Well, his weenies employ Tasha Morgan, J.S. Simmons, ....(I'll post his deck
> ASAP,
> didn't I tell that above? :-D )
This is also a mistake. I believe no nerd should be more valuable than
another. But, unless you're doing all this equipping after you've managed
to clear the field of blockers completely, it's only a +1 stealth action
being taken by a skilless, harmless, nerd. I suppose it will soak up
casual +1 intercept that might be used to bock Fatima's rushes before she
gets FOR, though. My nerds basically just sit there and block 0 stealth
stuff that's worth their one pool-ness until I send them in for
diablerie. Bleeding for one with three of them seems adequate.
BTW, I think that might be another difference in how we look at
decks. I'm aiming for just barely good enough to win more often than
lose, and do it with as little card investment as possible. I suppose
this puts me in the "stingy and lazy" school of deckbuilding. You, or
your friend, seem to have your eyes set on grandly stomping the
opposition, as in smacking down the whole table like the hand of god.
> However, Fame and TitR would make his deck more effective. I will have a
> look
> at his deck and see which two master cards should be dropped.
I tried to rebuild my deck and squeeze in more Psyches. I mean, I always
knew it was good, but I've gradually dialed back on it as I found myself
more often lacking in rush or freak drive than anything else. Anyway, I
eventually gave up on it... eight it remains. I did start thinking more
about the weak point of getting blocked before getting FOR, and switched
out a few SbtN for Faceless Night. The tap effect might make the
difference in the next two or three actions going unblocked.
> He, he... I know. But that's not Claudio's style >:-)
Cool.
[ quoted text not captured ]
[...]
>
> I will post Claudio's deck ASAP.
Well, here is Claudio's Fatima multi-rush deck:
Deck Name: Fatima multi-rush deck
Created By: Claudio
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 4, Max: 32, Avg: 3,33)
---------------------------------------------
4 Fatima al-Faqadi aus CEL for OBF QUI 8, Assamite
1 Franciscus aus 1, Caitiff
1 Igo the Hungry pre pro 1, Caitiff
1 Nik cel 1, Caitiff
1 Hasina Kesi pot 1, Caitiff
1 Smudge the Ignored none 1, Caitiff
1 Antoinette DuChamp cel pre 1, Caitiff
1 Navar McClaren ani 1, Caitiff
1 March Halcyon for 1, Pander
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (15 cards)
1 Barrens, The
3 Contract
3 Direct Intervention
1 Dreams of the Sphinx
3 Fortitude
1 Fragment of the Book of Nod
3 Secure Haven
Action (12 cards)
1 Ambush
4 Bum's Rush
5 Clandestine Contract
1 Harass
1 Nose of the Hound
Action Modifier (8 cards)
8 Freak Drive
Combat (43 cards)
2 Infernal Pursuit
19 Psyche!
6 Pursuit
8 Skin of Steel
8 Taste of Vitae
Retainer (3 cards)
1 J. S. Simmons, Esq.
1 Mr. Winthrop
1 Tasha Morgan
Equipment (9 cards)
5 Assault Rifle
4 Submachine Gun
Greetings,
Damnans