The reason why players are leaving the game

first off: gehennas events are an annoyance that should not have been printed, but with the exception of a few (e.g.:recalled to the founder, nightmares upon nightmares, the unmasking) they won´t see much tourney play and in the long run won´t affect Vtes. recalled to the founder is a real pain in the ass and mostly benefits weenies, a decktyp that is in whatever form (bleed, vote, combat, intercept) one of the strongest in this game. (although most cam+antitribu hybrid decks aren´t affect as well) and even if you will never manage to build a working deck that can play recalled to the founder regularly. if some wacky guys at your table decides to play one (just for fun) it will ruin your game if you play mono clan. but i think gehenna is not the reason why people are leaving the game. the reason is the lack of change in vtes. tourneys are still dominated by stealth bleed. almost every major tournament sees at least one !malk deck and another S&B deck in the final. combat decks are almost a nonfactor in tourney vtes (with the exception of the eurobrujah deck) and non weenie vote decks that do not include the big 2 (arika, leandro) are rarly successfull. showing up at a tourney without intercept and/or bounce will result in you being called mr. bleed sink (i played a deck that couldn´t bounce at the hungarian qualifier and i ate an horrible amount of deflected bleeds) the last 3 expansions brought only new stuff that either people would like to play, but that is simply to weak (anarchism and black hand) or stuff that adds an unnessary amount of luck and randomness to the game (gehenna events) vampires with a capacity above 8 are most of the time wallpaper (especially if they have no real title (bishop/primogen doesn´t count)) there is NO benefit in playing larger vampires except if the have cool specials and disciplines (like the ic´s or laz). some changes have been proposed (i suggest to LSJ at the ec that the biggies might need some sort of supersuperior (playable by vampires with a capacity above 7/8 if they have no title), just to be told that large vampires are strong enough) maybe vampires should only be allowed to bleed to a maximum of half their capacity maybe vampires should get +1 strengh when in combat with a younger vampire a lot of people are pissed the way the bloodlones are treated (no more group 2 vamps, some of them totally unplayable) the average CCG player DOESN`T care how many samedi are found in the world of darkness! i appreciate that WW has been carefull about not destroying the game, but the stasis the game is currently in might destroy the game. please no flames as a reply stefan

Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:<40b34a28$0$8840$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at>... > recalled to the founder is a > real pain in the ass and mostly benefits weenies, a decktyp that is in > whatever form (bleed, vote, combat, intercept) one of the strongest in > this game. (although most cam+antitribu hybrid decks aren´t affect as > well) and even if you will never manage to build a working deck that can > play recalled to the founder regularly. if some wacky guys at your table > decides to play one (just for fun) it will ruin your game if you play > mono clan. Yes. Hosing mono-clan is not nice, especially since going mono-clan is usually a sacrafice of at least a little bit of competiveness. The key element with these cards (like Protect Whine Own and some of the new Gehenna cards) is not that they are unbalanced, but that they are a pain in the ass and can be frustrating as hell. > but i think gehenna is not the reason why people are leaving the game. > the reason is the lack of change in vtes. tourneys are still dominated > by stealth bleed. There has to be an easiest way to win. Note that with proper preprations SB isn't necessarily going to win any games. But, every game has its winning archetypes and killer combos. If anything, it should be SB, as it is the most sincere deck type. > combat decks are almost a > nonfactor in tourney vtes (with the exception of the eurobrujah deck) > and non weenie vote decks that do not include the big 2 (arika, leandro) > are rarly successfull. Competitiveness-wise, you may be right. I must confess though that I derive special pleasure in sweeping a table with decks like Assamite (D) Rush combat especially because the game has (had?) so little support for the play style. Nowadays I find myself playing nonstandard decks even at tourneys. > showing up at a tourney without intercept and/or > bounce will result in you being called mr. bleed sink (i played a deck > that couldn´t bounce at the hungarian qualifier and i ate an horrible > amount of deflected bleeds) Well, so did I, but I packed some Counters instead. ;) At least my Innocent Bystander deck gained some new friends... ;) > vampires with a capacity above 8 are most of the time wallpaper > (especially if they have no real title (bishop/primogen doesn´t count)) > there is NO benefit in playing larger vampires except if the have cool > specials and disciplines (like the ic´s or laz). Sadly, this is really the case. To play a fattie you usually need at least two of the following: 1. multiple action ability, 2. very cool special, 3. über discipline spread, 4. 3 or more votes. Few things shorter would warrant it. Especially (caution, proceed at your own risk) since they are way too easy to burn. > some changes have been proposed (i suggest to LSJ at the ec that the > biggies might need some sort of supersuperior (playable by vampires with > a capacity above 7/8 if they have no title), just to be told that large > vampires are strong enough) I must confess that I am somewhat in disagreement with the current crypt card design formula. I think that at least two articles are underrated (titles and +1 Intercept). I'm not sure though that the vampires should gain any more points' worth of abilities, but some more cards like Aranthebes could still be welcome. > maybe vampires should only be allowed to bleed to a maximum of half their capacity > maybe vampires should get +1 strengh when in combat with a younger vampire Actually, stuff like these would make excellent Events (even if they would not be cool Gehenna cards). It is quite possible to use the new mechanic to favor the fatties. > a lot of people are pissed the way the bloodlones are treated (no more > group 2 vamps, some of them totally unplayable) the average CCG player > DOESN`T care how many samedi are found in the world of darkness! I'm probably the minority here, but I like the bloodlines _because_ they are hard to play. I'm currently going mono-True Brujah... ;) > i appreciate that WW has been carefull about not destroying the game, > but the stasis the game is currently in might destroy the game. Stasis is one thing. Slow change is another. I'm not sure whether I like the new pro-Combat deck mechanisms like Carver's and Lilith (making combat decks win easier) because part of the challenge will be gone. But then again, I'm one of those guys who was regularly playing Gangrel Antitribu before SW... ;) (Read - probably masochistic beyond redemption when it comes to a choice of decks.) Bye, Daneel

Hi Stephan. I guess your subject line implies that players near you are leaving the game ? Here, very few are as of now (even I am not yet : I just progressively give up organising, and will most probably buy nothing from the forthcoming expansions, but if the game stays balanced I'll keep on playing). > first off: gehennas events are an annoyance that should not have been > printed, but with the exception of a few (e.g.:recalled to the founder, > nightmares upon nightmares, the unmasking) they won´t see much tourney > play and in the long run won´t affect Vtes. recalled to the founder is a > real pain in the ass and mostly benefits weenies, a decktyp that is in > whatever form (bleed, vote, combat, intercept) one of the strongest in > this game. (although most cam+antitribu hybrid decks aren´t affect as > well) and even if you will never manage to build a working deck that can > play recalled to the founder regularly. if some wacky guys at your table > decides to play one (just for fun) it will ruin your game if you play > mono clan. The interesting point in what you say would be the randomness factor. Well, sure, but then there are some ways to counter Gehenna cards, and most cards aren't that random (no more than existing cards which penalize you if you play non-camarilla, for instance). I think the Event rule brings something new to the game. Maybe it brings something too big, but I'm not sure. Gehenna probably won't be the only events type, and that in itself is great : we'll be able to "personnalize" the events in our decks, and put a mood, a setting to them. I like it, strategically and mood-wise. On the weenie part, I tend to agree. Some other multi-clan decks (including the still hard-to-play Anarchs) will also benefit from it, though. I agree that it will put the table against the player most of the time, but then that is risky for him, isn't it ? > but i think gehenna is not the reason why people are leaving the game. > the reason is the lack of change in vtes. tourneys are still dominated > by stealth bleed. almost every major tournament sees at least one !malk > deck and another S&B deck in the final. combat decks are almost a > nonfactor in tourney vtes (with the exception of the eurobrujah deck) > and non weenie vote decks that do not include the big 2 (arika, leandro) > are rarly successfull. showing up at a tourney without intercept and/or > bounce will result in you being called mr. bleed sink (i played a deck > that couldn´t bounce at the hungarian qualifier and i ate an horrible > amount of deflected bleeds) > the last 3 expansions brought only new stuff that either people would > like to play, but that is simply to weak (anarchism and black hand) or > stuff that adds an unnessary amount of luck and randomness to the game > (gehenna events) > vampires with a capacity above 8 are most of the time wallpaper > (especially if they have no real title (bishop/primogen doesn´t count)) > there is NO benefit in playing larger vampires except if the have cool > specials and disciplines (like the ic´s or laz). I beg to differ. Gehenna brings new flavour to fighting. Leadership Vaccum, Torpid Blood, Games of Instinct, Dragonbound, Path of Lilith, even Carver's or Fueled... can help combat decks. For once, they may have a chance to win tables without needing Dom or Aus. Furthermore, it also introduces new ways to help the fatties : Nylan Horseed and Emergency Preparations will both benefit vampires above 7 (wish it was above 6, poor Carlotta... ;-) and therefore make them playble even without Freak Drive or Rutor's Hand ! I begged for such cards !! > some changes have been proposed (i suggest to LSJ at the ec that the > biggies might need some sort of supersuperior (playable by vampires with > a capacity above 7/8 if they have no title), just to be told that large > vampires are strong enough) > maybe vampires should only be allowed to bleed to a maximum of half > their capacity > maybe vampires should get +1 strengh when in combat with a younger vampire I think the game system should have been thought wholly differently, as in the RPG : you can play a discipline level only if you have the corresponding capacity ! But then, this is in another reality. In ours, I think the system must be left as it is, with just a few more cards helping fatties / hindering weenies. There are more than a few right now, and I'd say the midcaps are still the most powerful, with both many options and not too many hindrances. The card in Gehenna that helps weenie decks WAYYYY too much : Poison Pill !! Oh, you want to make me lose one pool per minion ? Well, you' better vote against it yourself, or else... I guess we'll see a lot more TVC used in inferior !! > a lot of people are pissed the way the bloodlones are treated (no more > group 2 vamps, some of them totally unplayable) the average CCG player > DOESN`T care how many samedi are found in the world of darkness! Agreed. > i appreciate that WW has been carefull about not destroying the game, > but the stasis the game is currently in might destroy the game. I think Gehenna helped the game go forward, contrarily to the previous two expansions, so I guess our mileages may vary (although I agreed a lot with you lately). The issues that bother me the most are with the new vampires, but I guess I'll make another subject line about that. > please no flames as a reply None, seen ? ;-) -- Solaris Nocturnus, Orpheus

"Stefan Ferenci" <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:40b34a28$0$8840$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at... > first off: gehennas events are an annoyance that should not have been > printed, but with the exception of a few (e.g.:recalled to the founder, > nightmares upon nightmares, the unmasking) they won´t see much tourney > play and in the long run won´t affect Vtes. *signs that* Gehenna cards are definitely not worth bothering in the long run (with the noted exceptions), but the concept of Event-cards in general I consider to be cool. I think that Gehenna events are merely a big field test in order to make the player community ready for more such cards to come (Event cards, not Gehenna events, that is). > but i think gehenna is not the reason why people are leaving the game. > the reason is the lack of change in vtes. tourneys are still dominated > by stealth bleed. almost every major tournament sees at least one !malk > deck and another S&B deck in the final. [snip] > the last 3 expansions brought only new stuff that either people would > like to play, but that is simply to weak (anarchism and black hand) or > stuff that adds an unnessary amount of luck and randomness to the game > (gehenna events) I concede that White Wolf's design team follows a very cautious strategy regarding card design, which is also backed up by the army of playtesters who immediately call out if a card shows only the faintest hint to be breakable. If you scan the list of cards in tournament winning decks, more often than not more than 90% of the library is made out of cards first published in one of the old sets. Only very few new cards make it into tournament calibre decks and if they do, they are most likely to be Masters (eg Zillah's Valley). Slightly bigger cojones might be perfectly OK when designing new cards. On the other hand the three big strategies (bleed, vote, combat) tower above us as the only three available strategies under the current victory conditions. As long as the changes to the game mechanics are not more drastic, people will usually look for cards that either directly hurt other players (bleed enhancers, damage votes), crush other minions (cool combat cards or votes) or make the minions easier/harder to block. BTW: What I *really* like is the change in the philosophy about which cards are common and rare. The recent sets feature mostly (unique) Master cards or unique permanents. This is something I would like to positively point out, because it makes it far easier for the players to build playable decks with new cards without investing a fortune just to get enough copies of staple cards (anyone still hunting Shroud of Absence?) and you usually don't need more than one or two copies of most rare cards. > vampires with a capacity above 8 are most of the time wallpaper > (especially if they have no real title (bishop/primogen doesn´t count)) > there is NO benefit in playing larger vampires except if the have cool > specials and disciplines (like the ic´s or laz). If you refer to torunament dacks, yes. In casual play - and this makes the vast majority of games I play - you see a much broarder variety of decks with more wacky strategies. I know this is quite insatisfactory for you, because I know you as a very achievement-oriented player for who the second-best option does not make the cut. But the diesign team can't exclusively design cards with tournament play in mind. We will never see a set entirely made out of tournament-calibre cards (and I am quite happy about it), for this would mean that most cards would read either "+bleed", "+stealth" or "+intercept". And who is eager to see the umpteenth variety of a DOM bleed card? > some changes have been proposed [snip the propositions] > i appreciate that WW has been carefull about not destroying the game, > but the stasis the game is currently in might destroy the game. Your propositions are all worth considering. What I like about them is that you do not propose hoser cards against certain strategies, but that you try to shift the balance with the means currently available to the game. Wether a vampire should bleed for half it's capacity or for one-third or one-(add your favorite number here, but PLEASE, no discussion about this) is not the point here. But I agree that if a certain facette of the game (in this case: most big vampires) doesn't see play outside casual games, some changes should be up for discussion. Best regards, Sascha Neumayr

Sascha Neumayr wrote: > Gehenna cards are definitely not worth bothering in the long run (with the > noted exceptions) "Definitely"? I'm still chewing on Anarchs, personally. > I concede that White Wolf's design team follows a very cautious strategy > regarding card design, which is also backed up by the army of playtesters > who immediately call out if a card shows only the faintest hint to be > breakable. Are you speaking from personal experience? There could be other reasons than overreaction from the playtesters for weak cards. > On the other hand the three big strategies (bleed, vote, combat) tower above > us as the only three available strategies under the current victory > conditions. Brinksmanship is a victory condition and three tournaments have been won with it. __ David Cherryholmes

Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:<40b34a28$0$8840$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at>... > first off: gehennas events are an annoyance that should not have been > printed, but with the exception of a few (e.g.:recalled to the founder, > nightmares upon nightmares, the unmasking) they won´t see much tourney > play and in the long run won´t affect Vtes. I think this is WAY WAY WAY too early to make such an absolute statement, considering none of the cards are remotely tourney-legal yet. I'm very curious to see how Events _actually_ filter into tournament play compared to people's wild-guess expectations. > recalled to the founder is a > real pain in the ass and mostly benefits weenies, a decktyp that is in > whatever form (bleed, vote, combat, intercept) one of the strongest in > this game. (although most cam+antitribu hybrid decks aren´t affect as > well) and even if you will never manage to build a working deck that can > play recalled to the founder regularly. if some wacky guys at your table > decides to play one (just for fun) it will ruin your game if you play > mono clan. Of course, you won't ever see someone playing 'one (just for fun)', since it requires two OTHER events to be in play and reduces the hand size by one for the duration of its effect. You'll pretty much _have_ to be facing someone who specifically plans to use this event as part of his strategy. That said, it may well 'ruin your game' if you play mono-clan and you do not have a vampire of sufficient size (a whopping 6-cap!) to lose to grant yourself immunity to RttF. Of course, the guy who plays a PTO 'just for fun' from his Cam-vote deck can also ruin your game - or the guy who plays with one Judgment: Camarilla Segregation because he's playing an all-Cam deck... or even the guy who diabs your torpored vamp just because he can get away with it. Of course, if your predator or prey chooses to play one and it hoses you, it's no longer 'just for fun' but also a potentially useful strategy move. But there are lots and lots and lots of cards and plays that can totally screw someone cross-table if a player is doing things 'just for fun'. That can certainly discourage people who are trying to play more seriously, and that disparity (the 'wacky fun' player vs. a serious player) gets talked about a lot in terms of 'new players in their first tourney that might totally unbalance a game'. If you've got a player who might totally screw you across table 'for fun' or otherwise unwittingly, it might be worth pointing out that his idea of 'fun' includes ruining your own enjoyment, thus reducing the chance that you'll be that interested in playing with them again. Take a minute and talk to them about why wacky cross-table-screw plays don't help them win. There are plenty of people who play together to have fun and don't care about winning; nothing inherently wrong with that as long as it's understood by all involved that playing seriously with the primary/sole objective to win isn't the goal of the players. > but i think gehenna is not the reason why people are leaving the game. > the reason is the lack of change in vtes. tourneys are still dominated > by stealth bleed. almost every major tournament sees at least one !malk > deck and another S&B deck in the final. Coincidentally enough the last several tourneys I have been at (including a Regional Qualifier) have seen neither stealth-bleed nor !Malks doing well - the Qualifier had neither at the final table. But I know other major tourneys see plenty of both (case in point, the recent German championship) lately, so it's in part a matter of local environment. My recent environment has seen a predominance of mega-intercept and Camarilla-big-cap vote decks; yours is as you state. > Combat decks are almost a > nonfactor in tourney vtes (with the exception of the eurobrujah deck) > and non weenie vote decks that do not include the big 2 (arika, leandro) > are rarly successfull. Combat looks to be getting a big boost from Gehenna, with things like the Path of Lilith, Dragonbound, and other forward-motion combat cards. At least, I'd like to see it be more played at a tourney level, personally. > showing up at a tourney without intercept and/or > bounce will result in you being called mr. bleed sink (i played a deck > that couldn´t bounce at the hungarian qualifier and i ate an horrible > amount of deflected bleeds) You're absolutely right: playing a deck with no ability to stop yourself from being bled with even a minimum of stealth (since you're 'without intercept) will make you a bleed sink. However, more of a problem for such a deck than being given a derogatory name like 'bleed sink' is that it probably loses most games, as you're neglecting to have a way to counter one of the most basic of ways your predator might oust you. (Unless you're playing with a non-intercept non-bounce answer like massive bleed reduction, in which case you don't care about being a sink.) > the last 3 expansions brought only new stuff that either people would > like to play, but that is simply to weak (anarchism and black hand) or > stuff that adds an unnessary amount of luck and randomness to the game > (gehenna events) I'll save Eric the trouble of pointing out that Anarchs are looking increasingly stronger now that Gehenna has given them new and powerful options. Fortitude bleed-reduce, anyone? How about some Presence-based stealth? Black Hand just became much more useful since it's one of the very few ways to counter Events. At least, that's assuming Events are as terrifyingly game-breaking powerful as some people are claiming. > vampires with a capacity above 8 are most of the time wallpaper > (especially if they have no real title (bishop/primogen doesn´t count)) > there is NO benefit in playing larger vampires except if the have cool > specials and disciplines (like the ic´s or laz). Of course, big vampires are much more likely to have 'cool disciplines', since they've often got so many levels of them. And I think WW has been much better about making the bigger vamps more interesting lately - I don't think there are that many big vamps from any of the recent sets that are so without redeemable qualities as to be 'wallpaper'. Most of the 'wallpaper' big vamps I hear people talk about are actually Jyhad-set ones. > some changes have been proposed (i suggest to LSJ at the ec that the > biggies might need some sort of supersuperior (playable by vampires with > a capacity above 7/8 if they have no title), just to be told that large > vampires are strong enough) > maybe vampires should only be allowed to bleed to a maximum of half > their capacity > maybe vampires should get +1 strengh when in combat with a younger vampire You could always try to play with a few of these rules and see how it affects game play and then tell us all your results. At least some of these are similar to game variants that WotC published in their Jyhad guidebook many years ago (forget the name). Things like base bleed or strength or both increasing with the capacity of the vampire, for instance. I seem to recall those sorts of variants falling under the category of 'things that make games go a whoooole lot faster', too. > a lot of people are pissed the way the bloodlones are treated (no more > group 2 vamps, some of them totally unplayable) the average CCG player > DOESN`T care how many samedi are found in the world of darkness! Then those people should take some comfort from LSJ declaring in the Developer chat that more Bloodlines vamps could well appear in future expansions. As to 'some of them are totally unplayable', to the best of my knowledge there was _never_ any sort of statement that the Bloodlines were ever intended to be playable as full standalones clans, nor even necessarily close, and many repeated official statements to the contrary. The fact that some of them have turned out to be just fine on their own (like the Ahrimanes, for instance) is nothing more than good fortune to those Bloodlines. (That said, it's unfortunate that a couple of them are not particularly playable even as secondary part of a deck. !Salubri, anyone? Anyone?) > i appreciate that WW has been carefull about not destroying the game, > but the stasis the game is currently in might destroy the game. > please no flames as a reply Without flaming you, I find it very hard to take a comment like 'the stasis the game is currently in might destroy the game' seriously when there are dozens and dozens of recent posters talking about how the game has changed _too much_ with Gehenna and that the game environment might be destroyed as a result. > stefan -John Flournoy

"Stefan Ferenci" <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote I agree that the events add too much randomness in a given game. Maybe we lack some sort of "sudden reversal" against events. Anyway, i find the game cool as it is =)

> I agree that the events add too much randomness in a given game. Maybe we > lack some sort of "sudden reversal" against events. Please don't !! We already have to include Sudden Reversals in our decks, and Direct Interventions as they counter so many things... There are some ways to counter Gehenna cards already (always for a cost). Please nothing so bold as a Sudden for all Event cards !! > Anyway, i find the game cool as it is =) Me too, except for the new vamps... Orpheus

Daneel wrote: > Yes. Hosing mono-clan is not nice, especially since going mono-clan is > usually a sacrafice of at least a little bit of competiveness. Um, going mono-clan is usually its own reward, not a sacrifice. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"Orpheus" <orphe...@DEADSPAMfree.fr> wrote in message news:40b3b987$0$6358$626a...@news.free.fr... > > I agree that the events add too much randomness in a given game. Maybe we > > lack some sort of "sudden reversal" against events. > > Please don't !! > > We already have to include Sudden Reversals in our decks, and Direct > Interventions as they counter so many things... > > There are some ways to counter Gehenna cards already (always for a cost). > Please nothing so bold as a Sudden for all Event cards !! I'm confused.... don't we all ready have one in: Emergency Preparations Text: Master out of Turn. Burn 1 pool to cancel a Gehenna card as it is played. Alternatively, if there are at least two Gehenna cards in play, you may play this card during your minion phase to untap a vampire with capacity above 7. or am I missing the sarcasm? -JTP

"John P." <verg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:75Qsc.590859$Ig.173028@pd7tw2no... [ quoted text not captured ] nope, no sarcasme here, i just misread the first line of text on this one. Thank you =)

Howdy John, > > recalled to the founder is a > > real pain in the ass and mostly benefits weenies, a decktyp that is in > > whatever form (bleed, vote, combat, intercept) one of the strongest in > > this game. (although most cam+antitribu hybrid decks aren´t affect as > > well) and even if you will never manage to build a working deck that can > > play recalled to the founder regularly. if some wacky guys at your table > > decides to play one (just for fun) it will ruin your game if you play > > mono clan. > > Of course, you won't ever see someone playing 'one (just for fun)', > since it requires two OTHER events to be in play and reduces the hand > size by one for the duration of its effect. You'll pretty much _have_ > to be facing someone who specifically plans to use this event as part > of his strategy. Actually... I'm thinking of sticking one in my pot/vic rush combat deck. Not quite 'just for fun', but not really 'specifically planning to use it'. The disciplines the deck is based on pretty much insure that my crypt is such that I'll never have more than two of the same clan in play. I haven't gotten my Gehenna yet, so I may revise my opinion, but other than Dragonbound (which is a tad dangerous for a deck whose prevent is limited to Horrid Forms), I don't see me sticking other Events in here. I'll just be waiting to see another player (or players) are rash enough to put the other two Events in play. If they do, well, dandy for me! Hopefully Recalled will offset whatever nastiness their Events are wreaking upon me... (Playing one card short in hand will hurt, but probably if I am able to get Recalled in play, a six card hand will be the least of my worries.) If not, well, it was just one card, and it replaces the similarly prayerful Rumors of Gehenna that potentially speeds my Master flow. I suspect the overall effect will be one of deterrence - are you sure you want put Events in play when they could result in very bad things happening to you? Mr. 'Just for Fun' is going to have to think a bit at that point. On Bloodlines: > (That said, it's unfortunate that a couple of them are not > particularly playable even as secondary part of a deck. !Salubri, > anyone? Anyone?) Soon, my robots... Soon... Say, anybody got a spare Blissful Agony to trade? That trick never works, Alex

David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:<2hhkrqF...@uni-berlin.de>... > Sascha Neumayr wrote: > > > On the other hand the three big strategies (bleed, vote, combat) tower above > > us as the only three available strategies under the current victory > > conditions. > > Brinksmanship is a victory condition and three tournaments have been won > with it. At least three, possibly more. Similarly, Anarch Revolt is an often-used strategy that kills people, without necessarily bleeding, calling votes or beating people up. And it's won many, many tourneys. > David Cherryholmes -John Flournoy

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<T5Psc.27789$fF3.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > Daneel wrote: > > Yes. Hosing mono-clan is not nice, especially since going mono-clan is > > usually a sacrafice of at least a little bit of competiveness. > > Um, going mono-clan is usually its own reward, not a sacrifice. ??? Pros: - you benefit from ConBoon, - you can play clan-based cards with each vampire. Cons: - not optimized discipline spread (most decks have far more discipline-based cards than clan-based ones, and discipline-based cards are more often integrated into combos). Now, going free-clan usually enhances deck performance, because even though it slightly reduces the number of vampires that can use a given clan-based card, it also opens up a new set of clan-based cards. To state the obvious, Brujah / Brujah Antitribu has two Hunting Grounds, and more dial-a-crypt-ish discipline spreads available. Unless you are doing some specific combo deck, like using Brujah Debate or Carthage Remembered, going monoclan is a sacrafice (you sacrafice the other HG, and the slightly better discipline spreads for the sake of aesthetic consistency). Also, I haven't even touched on the subject of decks which are not based on three in-clans. A CEL POT deck is far better off with a mixed crypt than an honest-to-god Brujah crypt. Bye, Daneel

Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:<40b34a28$0$8840$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at>... [snip] > recalled to the founder is a > real pain in the ass and mostly benefits weenies, a decktyp that is in > whatever form (bleed, vote, combat, intercept) one of the strongest in > this game. (although most cam+antitribu hybrid decks aren´t affect as > well) and even if you will never manage to build a working deck that can > play recalled to the founder regularly. if some wacky guys at your table > decides to play one (just for fun) it will ruin your game if you play > mono clan. I second that. > vampires with a capacity above 8 are most of the time wallpaper > (especially if they have no real title (bishop/primogen doesn´t count)) > there is NO benefit in playing larger vampires except if the have cool > specials and disciplines (like the ic´s or laz). And I second that, too. The randomness of some Gehenna events is very bothersome, and quite likely to make a farce out of a game that used to at least in some instances rely on deckdesign, experience and strategy - and not pure luck.

Well, I think it's way too soon to say anything about how the Event cards will affect real play. There have been lots of cards in previous sets that everyone was in an uproar about, when in practice they have proved to be quite balanced. Of course, there have also been unbalanced cards and combos. Time will tell where the Event cards fall. I sort of like them myself. As for stealth-bleed, yeah, I sort of agree. Having run N+1 tournaments over here, it's still *very* rare to find a deck at the final round which doesn't have Dominate. Bleed bounce + bleed modifiers are so powerful that everyone and their dog plays them. Boring. One of the only exceptions are the Anarch Revolt decks, which are even more cheesy (the day thay Anarch Revolt gets errata I will be very happy, it's one of the more broken cards in the game currently). But I digress. But overall I'm pretty happy with the direction the game has taken. On my personal wish list are: - An errata to Anarch Revolt (make it unique, make it cost X=# of ARs previously in play, anything). In a dedicated Master card deck with tons of Minion Tap and Golconda, this card makes for an almost unstoppable deck that totally circumvents the normal game mechanics (no actions, nothing to block) and requires a whole table united from the first round to stop it. Seen it all too many times. If you think AR is ok, you've never seen one of these monsters play 3 ARs per round and bloat around 10 pool per round. - Some usable way to fight against bleed bounce without playing bleed bounce yourself. A deck without bleed bounce usually drops quickly in tournaments. //Petri

>. If you think AR is ok, you've never seen one of > these monsters play 3 ARs per round and bloat around 10 pool per round. or you play them and think yourself very clever for doing so FC

To sum it up in short based on our Draft Tournament last Sunday, including the new Gehenna cards : - nobody seems to be leaving the game because of Gehenna in our area - most people we´re quite excited about the new expansion - the difficult playability of group 4 was considered a problem, though - the idea of allowing group 1 and 4 in a deck was not liked Some of my personal views : I guess the environment was quite balanced before but with a noticeable advantage towards weenie and s&b decks. The new expansion makes combat and big vampires better so I guess the environment will be balanced out even more. Most people I know like the game just BECAUSE it has a more or less static tournament environment with steady changes and not the rapid hot-today crap-tomorrow environment like Magic or something. -- johannes walch

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:a23a105e.04052...@posting.google.com... > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<T5Psc.27789$fF3.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > > Daneel wrote: > > > Yes. Hosing mono-clan is not nice, especially since going mono-clan is > > > usually a sacrafice of at least a little bit of competiveness. > > > > Um, going mono-clan is usually its own reward, not a sacrifice. > > ??? > > Pros: > - you benefit from ConBoon, > - you can play clan-based cards with each vampire. Con Boon is nothing to sneeze at. > Cons: > - not optimized discipline spread (most decks have far more > discipline-based cards than clan-based ones, and discipline-based > cards are more often integrated into combos). > > Now, going free-clan usually enhances deck performance, because even > though it slightly reduces the number of vampires that can use a given > clan-based card, it also opens up a new set of clan-based cards. To > state the obvious, Brujah / Brujah Antitribu has two Hunting Grounds, > and more dial-a-crypt-ish discipline spreads available. > > Unless you are doing some specific combo deck, like using Brujah > Debate or Carthage Remembered, going monoclan is a sacrafice (you > sacrafice the other HG, and the slightly better discipline spreads for > the sake of aesthetic consistency). Going monoclan guaratees that you will be able to play all of your clan based toys regardless of crypt draw. I know that if you do a 50/50 split then you will most likely be able to play all the toys involved, but you also may draw two multually incompatable draws such as all 1 clan or all 1 of the other clan. Brujah Debate and Carthage Remembered are good cards. -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

Angus, the Unruled expounded: > And I second that, too. > > The randomness of some Gehenna events is very bothersome, and quite > likely to make a farce out of a game that used to at least in some > instances rely on deckdesign, experience and strategy - and not pure > luck. They are only random if you haven't built around them (well). Anarch Revolt is very random if you fail to build a good deck to use it as are many other cards.

athosg...@gmx.at (Angus, the Unruled) wrote in message news:<690c2085.04052...@posting.google.com>... > Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote in message >news:<40b34a28$0$8840$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at>... > > [snip] > > > recalled to the founder is a > > real pain in the ass and mostly benefits weenies, a decktyp that is in > > whatever form (bleed, vote, combat, intercept) one of the strongest in > > this game. (although most cam+antitribu hybrid decks aren´t affect as > > well) and even if you will never manage to build a working deck that can > > play recalled to the founder regularly. if some wacky guys at your table > > decides to play one (just for fun) it will ruin your game if you play > > mono clan. > > I second that. Actually, it benefits Anarchs of any size. Bwa ha ha. > > vampires with a capacity above 8 are most of the time wallpaper > > (especially if they have no real title (bishop/primogen doesn´t count)) > > there is NO benefit in playing larger vampires except if the have cool > > specials and disciplines (like the ic´s or laz). > > And I second that, too. Did you guys read the May Anarch newsletter? I think I've made a decent case for at least some use for untitled large vamps (Free States Rant/Mob Rule). If only Hazimel were untitled! > The randomness of some Gehenna events is very bothersome, and quite > likely to make a farce out of a game that used to at least in some > instances rely on deckdesign, experience and strategy - and not pure > luck. Bah, this game has always included elements of pure luck, like table seating. And we've always had plenty of effects that do not discriminate between friend and foe. Someone else has said something along these lines, but I want to push it a little farther - If you play a Gehenna Event (or Anarch Revolt, Judgement:Camarilla Segregation, Autarkis Persecution, etc.) that hurts your prey and/or predator the most, you have played well. If it hurts your grandprey the most, you have played poorly. If it manages by some miracle to hose everyone but you and you get the sweep, you have played VERY well. If it manages to hose everybody but your prey, then you have played VERY poorly. Global effects require skill. They always have. Events are no different, and though we may see some initial spike in their use, ultimately I think they'll have very little effect - either positive or negative - on poor play. Poor play will always exist, and how well you deal with it is part of what makes a really great player. It's really just another vehicle for poor play, so it will necessarily keep the great players on their toes. I just can't bring myself to feel bad about that. Eric Simon Prince of Chicago Anarch Newsletter Writer

Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:<40b34a28$0$8840$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at>... Again: sorry for my english. I think that Gehenna will help the developement of game. It is better than the previous two expansions (Anarchs & Black Hand), but some cards add too much randomness to the game. For now it's not legal in tournments but I think we can see many deck with some events in: I'll play with many clans, I will use "Recalled to the Founder". I'll play without locations, I'll put in play "Conquest of Humanity". I'll play with big fat guys, I'll use "Nightmares upon Nightmares" (and "Mylan Horseed"). I've a lot of allies, I put in the deck 1 or 2 copies of "The Unmasking". This can make the game very different from now, as for the possibile use of "The Slow Withering" and "Blood Weakens". You must think on the deck you will play to take in count those cards… And I think it's very difficult to make a deck able to resist all those events. SO: Maybe events can be counterd by players with the expenditure of X pools (a new rule) as by the cards who already exists to counter them. (X is up to the designers, maybe a expenditure of 5 pool, payable by all the meth together- I.E. if there are 4 meths at the table and 3 want to counter the playing of a new event, they can pay 2+2+1 pool and, maybe, skip their next discard). Some players are leaving the game: This effect exist also in Italy. It's true but I think that the problem is not with Gehenna *BUT* with group 4 *AND* frequency of the expansions. If we return to 9+ months gap and have a better kind of grouping (I like odd and even possibility) many player wll return to the game. For Bloodline -in my opinion, the best expansion after "the original" Sabbat: I hope to see new bloodline cards and vamps. Many players in Italy hope the same. I think it's one of the best idea of the WW designers. New clans, new horizons… but some of the clans have too weak vampires to be effectively played. I.E. In the past, I've won 1-2 tournments with Daughters of Cacophony but it was very difficult, because I've only 5 of them to use (and the smallest two are near un-usable). So I hope that the designers will make a "Bloodline 2" and will put some other usable vamps for each bloodline(group 2 or 3, please!) to mix with. As for Black Hand which has not followed the "true" distribution of vampires in that sect... the designers can neglect that idea also for bloodlines. It's very difficult to play with only 3-5 vamps with a discipline. If they won't agree with this idea, maybe they will consider to create a "master: bloodline discipline" which will give 1 level of a "bloodline" discipline to a vampire (cost: 1 pool?) and each meth can have only 1 discipline given by that card (so you can play with only 1 bloodline added discipline by the use of the card). Best deranges, RavATwoFaces VEKN Italian NC "I'm the right malkavian at the right place. Problems? I solve them. No problem. I will create!"

On Wed, 26 May 2004, at 2:04pm, Petri Wessman wrote: > If you think AR is ok, you've never seen one of these monsters play 3 > ARs per round and bloat around 10 pool per round. Uh... how? Furthermore, wouldn't any deck that bloats for 10 pool a round be strong? If such bloat is actually occurring in your games, I'd say that's where the brokenness lies. Anarch Revolt just moves the game along...

d. hathorn wrote: >>If you think AR is ok, you've never seen one of these monsters play 3 >>ARs per round and bloat around 10 pool per round. > > Uh... how? If the Anarch Revolt deck has gotten really lucky, it can have up to five master phase actions: 1) The normal one 2) Rumors of Gehenna 3) The Parthenon 4) Anson 5) Huitzipochtli So, lay down 2-3 Anarch Revolts, and then Minion Tap/Golconda (or both) your fatty. > Furthermore, wouldn't any deck that bloats for 10 pool a round be strong? > If such bloat is actually occurring in your games, I'd say that's where > the brokenness lies. Anarch Revolt just moves the game along... The problem, as far as AR decks are concerned, is that they don't require minions to do damage to their prey. Any deck can bring out a fatty + minion tap + golconda to gain pool out the wazoo, but all that pool won't help them if they end up with no minions. But for an AR deck... --Colin McGuigan

"Colin McGuigan" <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message news:fvSdnc_M7Zs...@speakeasy.net... > d. hathorn wrote: > >>If you think AR is ok, you've never seen one of these monsters play 3 > >>ARs per round and bloat around 10 pool per round. > > > > Uh... how? > > If the Anarch Revolt deck has gotten really lucky, it can have up to > five master phase actions: > > 1) The normal one > 2) Rumors of Gehenna > 3) The Parthenon > 4) Anson > 5) Huitzipochtli > > So, lay down 2-3 Anarch Revolts, and then Minion Tap/Golconda (or both) > your fatty. Nitpick: Both Anson and Rumors of Gehenna give you two master phase actions (instead of +1) and thus do not combine. Max master phase actions of the above cards is 4. -JTP

John P. wrote: > Nitpick: Both Anson and Rumors of Gehenna give you two master phase > actions (instead of +1) and thus do not combine. Max master phase actions > of the above cards is 4. Well. That'll show those AR decks! --Colin McGuigan

flou...@rcn.com (John Flournoy) wrote in message news:<57327a82.04052...@posting.google.com>... > Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:<40b34a28$0$8840$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at>... > Without flaming you, I find it very hard to take a comment like 'the > stasis the game is currently in might destroy the game' seriously when > there are dozens and dozens of recent posters talking about how the > game has changed _too much_ with Gehenna and that the game environment > might be destroyed as a result. No no... you misunderstand my complains of Gehenna Events. They are game crippling, the same way in that PTO of game crippling, only these events are game crippling to ALL players. Now, the second important thing to remember about my statement that Gehenna will cause people to leave playgroups is this: Though they (gehenna events) may not see tournament play (because of the rather random destabalizing effects they have) we WILL be seeing them in casual play. These cards will wreck CASUAL play, hurting our playgroup (as casual play we play to win AND to have fun... confusing that, isn't it?). Comprends? ~SV

Timlagor <TimSl...@yaMhoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<MPG.1b1eb6a7b...@news.eclipse.co.uk>... [ quoted text not captured ] And anarch revolt can also be removed as a D action (not requiring a card slot in my deck JUST IN CASE someone decides to destabalize my casual play fun...). So your point here is not valid. Please, try again. ~SV

vol...@yahoo.com (Eric Simon) wrote in message news:<6f81fa2c.04052...@posting.google.com>... > athosg...@gmx.at (Angus, the Unruled) wrote in message news:<690c2085.04052...@posting.google.com>... > > Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote in message >news:<40b34a28$0$8840$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at>... > > Did you guys read the May Anarch newsletter? I think I've made a > decent case for at least some use for untitled large vamps (Free > States Rant/Mob Rule). If only Hazimel were untitled! If only they rewrote the anarhc mechanic to allow a titled vampire to give up his title and go anarch. Wouldn't that be SO much better? > > The randomness of some Gehenna events is very bothersome, and quite > > likely to make a farce out of a game that used to at least in some > > instances rely on deckdesign, experience and strategy - and not pure > > luck. > > Bah, this game has always included elements of pure luck, like table > seating. And we've always had plenty of effects that do not > discriminate between friend and foe. Someone else has said something > along these lines, but I want to push it a little farther - If you > play a Gehenna Event (or Anarch Revolt, Judgement:Camarilla > Segregation, Autarkis Persecution, etc.) that hurts your prey and/or > predator the most, you have played well. And then your prey can counter by doing one of the following: -Blocking the action that gets Judgement/Auturkis into play (I find that blocking is a very common strategy, and something one will expect to maybe need to do once per game). -Taking an action to get rid of the thing (anarch revolt has a Built in D removal). Axing a Gehenna event requires that you ACTUALLY INCLUDE an anti-Gehenna card in your deck. It requires a silver bullet, a silver bullet that has little to no good other effect. So these silver bullets will probably NOT be included (though emergency preperations is almost good enough to include some gehenna cards to play it in your deck. Most people I know just play For.). Try some other examples, otherwise, I declare your point invalid. > If it hurts your grandprey > the most, you have played poorly. If it manages by some miracle to > hose everyone but you and you get the sweep, you have played VERY > well. If it manages to hose everybody but your prey, then you have > played VERY poorly. > > Global effects require skill. They always have. Events are no > different, and though we may see some initial spike in their use, > ultimately I think they'll have very little effect - either positive > or negative - on poor play. Poor play will always exist, and how well > you deal with it is part of what makes a really great player. It's > really just another vehicle for poor play, so it will necessarily keep > the great players on their toes. I just can't bring myself to feel > bad about that. We don't need more vehicles for Noobs to wreck table balance, please. We've enough of that already (ooohhh!!! shiney new red card! Must, put, in, deck...) PS: Where do you guys play in Chicago? I've a friend moving out there. ~SV

Colin McGuigan <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message news:<fvSdnc_M7Zs...@speakeasy.net>... > The problem, as far as AR decks are concerned, is that they don't > require minions to do damage to their prey. Any deck can bring out a > fatty + minion tap + golconda to gain pool out the wazoo, but all that > pool won't help them if they end up with no minions. But for an AR deck... Dude, didn't you hear? Anarch Revolt is passe. I'm dropping all but one or two (plus the Antediluvian Awakening, of course) from my mostly master decks...and replacing them with Personal Involvement.

"vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f987c6cd.04052...@posting.google.com... > vol...@yahoo.com (Eric Simon) wrote in message news:<6f81fa2c.04052...@posting.google.com>... > > athosg...@gmx.at (Angus, the Unruled) wrote in message news:<690c2085.04052...@posting.google.com>... > > > Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote in message >news:<40b34a28$0$8840$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at>... > If only they rewrote the anarhc mechanic to allow a titled vampire to > give up his title and go anarch. Wouldn't that be SO much better? I'd love that, Elisabetta might actually find some use in that case (and yes, I want Elisabetta to work somehow, same with Patrizia)

Emmit Svenson wrote: > Dude, didn't you hear? Anarch Revolt is passe. I'm dropping all but > one or two (plus the Antediluvian Awakening, of course) from my mostly > master decks...and replacing them with Personal Involvement. But...but...the AR deck always made for such short games! I mean, with Personal Involvement, you might actually do something like oust your prey! --Colin McGuigan

[snip some analysis why people leave the game] I played for 10 years soon and know a lot of players. As far as I know, those I know who have quit playing, noone has done it because of a specific card, set or ruling. Major reasons have been: * Getting married/girlfriend/(boyfriend) * Getting kid(s) * Getting a hobby they enjoy more (though they sometimes play. maybe once every year and claim it's still fun) * Moving to a city/village there noone plays Vampire * Getting a job that takes all spare time * Getting health problems * Cash problems. They want to buy all these funky new cards, but cannot afford bying any and gets depressed because of that and starts dropping out of the game. Sorry for my english. Robert

snip > Nitpick: Both Anson and Rumors of Gehenna give you two master phase > actions (instead of +1) and thus do not combine. Max master phase actions > of the above cards is 4. > > -JTP No maximum is 5 :) 1) Normal MPA 2) Anson / Rumors of Gehenna 3) The Parthenon 4) Huitzipochtli 5) Sarrasine (but you must have the edge) Matkov

matkov expounded: > snip > > > Nitpick: Both Anson and Rumors of Gehenna give you two master phase > > actions (instead of +1) and thus do not combine. Max master phase actions > > of the above cards is 4. > > > > -JTP > > No maximum is 5 :) *"of the above cards"* [ quoted text not captured ]

On 26 May 2004 12:14:53 -0700, vermil...@yahoo.com (vermillian) wrote: >And then your prey can counter by doing one of the following: > >-Blocking the action that gets Judgement/Auturkis into play (I find >that blocking is a very common strategy, and something one will expect >to maybe need to do once per game). >-Taking an action to get rid of the thing (anarch revolt has a Built >in D removal). D action? You can remove Anarch Revolt via successfull +1 stealth political action. Far from a simple (D) action.

"vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > Comprends? Nope. If the cards are effective people will play with them. New players might play with them, but the new players don't stay new forever, eventually they will see that unless they make effective use of event cards they are just making their chance of winning worst, and people *want* to win. Raille

vermil...@yahoo.com (vermillian) wrote in message news:<f987c6cd.04052...@posting.google.com>... > flou...@rcn.com (John Flournoy) wrote in message news:<57327a82.04052...@posting.google.com>... > > Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:<40b34a28$0$8840$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at>... > > Without flaming you, I find it very hard to take a comment like 'the > > stasis the game is currently in might destroy the game' seriously when > > there are dozens and dozens of recent posters talking about how the > > game has changed _too much_ with Gehenna and that the game environment > > might be destroyed as a result. > > No no... you misunderstand my complains of Gehenna Events. > > They are game crippling, the same way in that PTO of game crippling, > only these events are game crippling to ALL players. I understand your point, but I still disagree with it. Without itemizing every single event, such events are only _potentially_ game crippling to all players - depending on what their deck does. For instance, when I play my all-Nosferatu-Anti deck, Fall of the Camarilla does not in any way shape or form cripple my game. Recalled to the Founder cannot ruin my 6-clan Nec/Dom/Aus deck because I cannot have 3 of a clan in play. My Inner Circle/Justicar deck doesn't even notice Nightmares Upon Nightmares entering play unless there are 8 more events on the table. Most Events are _only_ 'game-crippling to ALL players' (emphasis yours) if every player happens to be playing the style of deck that gets hurt by it. Otherwise, my commentary about choosing whether to play events that potentially screw somebody across-table without hurting your prey or predator still apply. If there was an Event that would _always_ cripple the game of all the players, then that would mean there was no deck that would be able to ignore the consequences of that Event.. which means nobody would _play_ that event, because all the Events also affect the person playing them and they'd be just as crippled as the rest. None of them are 'everybody but you has this effect happen'. Keep in mind that there have already been, for years and years, cards that you can play that hose people based on what type deck they are playing. Judgement: Camarilla Segregation is a fine example. If I put J:CS in play (especially if I play more than one), I could certainly be crippling the game of anybody playing non-Cam no matter where they are sitting. And I'd probably be called a total idiot if I did so when the only person playing non-Cam was my grand-prey, regardless of 'casual game' or 'tournament game'. Let's say that you bring a deck that's designed to play Fall of the Camarilla, because you think that's fun. If your prey and predator are both playing non-Camarilla decks and the two Cam vote decks are cross-table, and you still play FotC, you are not randomly destabilizing a table, you are _deliberately_ destabilizing it. Because there is not a single Event that says 'YOU MUST PLAY THIS EVENT IF YOU HAVE IT' or anything of the sort. > Now, the second important thing to remember about my statement that > Gehenna will cause people to leave playgroups is this: Though they > (gehenna events) may not see tournament play (because of the rather > random destabalizing effects they have) we WILL be seeing them in > casual play. These cards will wreck CASUAL play, hurting our playgroup > (as casual play we play to win AND to have fun... confusing that, > isn't it?). Again, the destabilizing effects are only random _if you let them be_. By the time enough events are on the table to play Fall of the X (for instance), you should be able to look at the table and have a pretty damn good idea who that Event will hinder and who will ignore it. Since there is no mandatory play of an Event, the decision to play one is no more randomly destabilizing than any of the other cards that impact everybody at the table - unless you are deliberately choosing to play the event before you have any information about who that play will affect. If a player is indiscriminately playing cards (events or otherwise) that might ruin a random player's game, without having any information as to what the consequences will be, and they do so game after game, the rest of the play group either needs to convince this player to stop doing that, stop playing with that player, or change their expectations of the game from 'we're going to win' to 'we're playing totally for fun'. Despite everything I've said, I'm sure a _lot_ of groups are going to see events played 'for fun' in indiscriminate fashion for the next few weeks. Cause the cards are new, and interesting, and people want to try them out, even if that means unbalancing games randomly. But again, this isn't the first (or second, or third, etc) time that new cards have been released that can totally shaft somebody cross-table when they're put into play. When the novelty of those previous cards wore off, people stopped playing them 'just to play them' and started making intelligent decisions (or at least trying to, heh) about how and when to use them. I don't see how the potentially game-screwing Events are going to be any different. > Comprends? Yep. > ~SV -John Flournoy

vermil...@yahoo.com (vermillian) wrote in message news:<f987c6cd.04052...@posting.google.com>... > If only they rewrote the anarhc mechanic to allow a titled vampire to > give up his title and go anarch. Wouldn't that be SO much better? Yes, but definitely too powerful. One of the things I'm still thinking about is ways to build Anarch decks using titled vamps, such as having an Anastaszi 3rd Tradition deck that calls the Tremere Justicar on one of his children (who then starts doing the 3rd trad) so he can go Anarch. Just a possibility. Only the Indie voters can never be Anarchs, which I do agree is a bit of a shame. > > > The randomness of some Gehenna events is very bothersome, and quite > > > likely to make a farce out of a game that used to at least in some > > > instances rely on deckdesign, experience and strategy - and not pure > > > luck. > > > > Bah, this game has always included elements of pure luck, like table > > seating. And we've always had plenty of effects that do not > > discriminate between friend and foe. Someone else has said something > > along these lines, but I want to push it a little farther - If you > > play a Gehenna Event (or Anarch Revolt, Judgement:Camarilla > > Segregation, Autarkis Persecution, etc.) that hurts your prey and/or > > predator the most, you have played well. > > And then your prey can counter by doing one of the following: > > -Blocking the action that gets Judgement/Auturkis into play (I find > that blocking is a very common strategy, and something one will expect > to maybe need to do once per game). > -Taking an action to get rid of the thing (anarch revolt has a Built > in D removal). Vote removal, not D removal. And AR decks are often built not to care if one gets removed, or they're built to hose anyone who calls the vote. > Axing a Gehenna event requires that you ACTUALLY INCLUDE an > anti-Gehenna card in your deck. It requires a silver bullet, a silver > bullet that has little to no good other effect. So these silver > bullets will probably NOT be included (though emergency preperations > is almost good enough to include some gehenna cards to play it in your > deck. Most people I know just play For.). > > Try some other examples, otherwise, I declare your point invalid. Actually, the fact that you can stop these other global effects is irrelevant to my point. The point is that many people still manage to get these global effects through at wholly inappropriate times, when they should not have been played at all. It doesn't matter whether it could have been stopped or whether it can be gotten rid of, many people play them poorly. My limited experience with Gehenna events so far is that for the big ones the opportunity cost is so high that if you are careful about playing them (not indiscriminately playing ones that hose your grandprey) they're only going to be useful to you in a small number of games. Time will tell, but last night a Chicago player played an Alifa/Beckett(adv) deck, putting nearly all the Gehenna cards into play. It hurt his prey least of the entire table, and he got no VPs. The problem was that the deck drove itself - he couldn't really control it as well as he needed to in order to focus on his prey. And that, I think is the crux of the issue with Gehenna cards, and it means that they're not likely to start insta-winning. > We don't need more vehicles for Noobs to wreck table balance, please. > We've enough of that already (ooohhh!!! shiney new red card! Must, > put, in, deck...) Meh. How many times has stealth/bleed, one of the most supposedly "correct" paradigms in this game, wrecked table balance? It's going to happen, and honestly I think most of the Gehenna cards are less destructive than irresponsible bleed. > PS: Where do you guys play in Chicago? I've a friend moving out there. > > ~SV Info at http://dragonhawke.net/chicagovtes (updates to that site soon, but I'm in finals right now) Or contact me directly. We always look forward to seeing more people! [ quoted text not captured ]

Eric Simon wrote: > Yes, but definitely too powerful. One of the things I'm still > thinking about is ways to build Anarch decks using titled vamps, such > as having an Anastaszi 3rd Tradition deck that calls the Tremere > Justicar on one of his children (who then starts doing the 3rd trad) > so he can go Anarch. Just a possibility. Only the Indie voters can > never be Anarchs, which I do agree is a bit of a shame. Sure they can! Ur-Shulgi goes into the Fire, declares a Crusade, is Excommunicated, and is then free to go Anarch! Or, if you have two indies of the same capacity, Rise of the Neptahli allows you to contest the title, and then both can go anarch while they're contesting. One yields, and *poof* you have two anarch vampires, one of which has 4 votes. =P --Colin McGuigan

"XZealot" <nbr...@rapidretailsolutions.com> wrote in message news:<2hjmphF...@uni-berlin.de>... > > Pros: > > - you benefit from ConBoon, > > - you can play clan-based cards with each vampire. > > Con Boon is nothing to sneeze at. Yes. I mentioned it as a factor because of that. However, ConBoon will seldom make it into non-voting decks (in which case the option of gaining one from someone else at the table is highly random). > Going monoclan guaratees that you will be able to play all of your clan > based toys regardless of crypt draw. I know that if you do a 50/50 split > then you will most likely be able to play all the toys involved, but you > also may draw two multually incompatable draws such as all 1 clan or all 1 > of the other clan. Possibly. I just feel more comfortable considering the other 94% of the cases. > Brujah Debate and Carthage Remembered are good cards. Yes. I mentioned them for that reason. But note that they are usually involved in specific decks. If you need Brujah Princes, then the Antitribu just won't do. Bye, Daneel

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:a23a105e.04052...@posting.google.com... > "XZealot" <nbr...@rapidretailsolutions.com> wrote in message news:<2hjmphF...@uni-berlin.de>... > > > Pros: > > > - you benefit from ConBoon, > > > - you can play clan-based cards with each vampire. > > > > Con Boon is nothing to sneeze at. > > Yes. I mentioned it as a factor because of that. However, ConBoon will > seldom make it into non-voting decks (in which case the option of > gaining one from someone else at the table is highly random). > > > Going monoclan guaratees that you will be able to play all of your clan > > based toys regardless of crypt draw. I know that if you do a 50/50 split > > then you will most likely be able to play all the toys involved, but you > > also may draw two multually incompatable draws such as all 1 clan or all 1 > > of the other clan. > > Possibly. I just feel more comfortable considering the other 94% of > the cases. There are quite a few cases where 94% is incorrect. Art Museum, Arcane Library, Eco Terrorists require 2 of the same clan, one ready and one uncontrolled. Brujah Debate, Toreador Grand Ball, etc.. require two ready of a single clan. Some such as Palla Grande only give benifit to one clan in play. So playing with any of these cards in a mixed crypt is suboptimal. Some cards only affect members of one sect, such as Archon, so you can only play with members of one sect yet not their counterparts, EuroBrujah. So contrary to the illusory 94% you give above, quite a few strong decktypes rely and therefore require going monoclan. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Colin McGuigan" <magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote in message news:6cKcnXTOSaG...@speakeasy.net... > Eric Simon wrote: > > Yes, but definitely too powerful. One of the things I'm still > > thinking about is ways to build Anarch decks using titled vamps, such > > as having an Anastaszi 3rd Tradition deck that calls the Tremere > > Justicar on one of his children (who then starts doing the 3rd trad) > > so he can go Anarch. Just a possibility. Only the Indie voters can > > never be Anarchs, which I do agree is a bit of a shame. > > Sure they can! Ur-Shulgi goes into the Fire, declares a Crusade, is > Excommunicated, and is then free to go Anarch! Wouldn't the indy title "stick" beneath the Archbishop title and become active when he was excommunicated? FC

Colin McGuigan wrote: > d. hathorn wrote: >>>If you think AR is ok, you've never seen one of these monsters play 3 >>>ARs per round and bloat around 10 pool per round. >> >> Uh... how? > > If the Anarch Revolt deck has gotten really lucky, it can have up to > five master phase actions: > > 1) The normal one > 2) Rumors of Gehenna > 3) The Parthenon > 4) Anson > 5) Huitzipochtli > > So, lay down 2-3 Anarch Revolts, and then Minion Tap/Golconda (or both) > your fatty. Precisely. This is not theoretical, I've seen these things win tournaments over here. I'm not saying it's trivial to build a deck that really works, but once it's done it does become a bit of a problem. Why? Because it almost totally circumvents the normal game mechanics. Basically, all it does is play Masters, tons of them. No actions, rushes are met with Obedience/Majesty. It makes sure that everyone drops in the correct order by playing life boons, and in emergency cases calling a table-rearranging vote. We've talked about how to fight this type of deck over here, and so far have drawn a pretty big blank... and we're not exactly amateurs over here. Things that have a small chance of working: a) Bleed him out of the game, fast. Requires a dedicated and fast (stealth) bleeder as predator. b) Remove the Anarch Revolts and/or prevent him playing masters. Almost impossible to do in practice, borderline possible if everyone on the table concentrates on removing the ARs. c) Rush him and try to drop his vampires before he can Minion Tap + Golconda them. Very very hard to do, due to Obedience and Majesty. d) Bloat faster than him. Almost impossible, Minion Tap + Golconda (with Info Highway etc assisting) is very efficient. The deck is beatable, but only in certain situations and when the whole table suspends normal play and concentrates on ousting this one deck. The deck consists on mostly master cards (probably 80% are masters). I have no problems with strong decks. I do have problems with deck archetypes that require specific anti-decks, which normal decks don't have much of a chance against. This is not abstract theory. //Petri

vermillian wrote: > And anarch revolt can also be removed as a D action (not requiring a > card slot in my deck JUST IN CASE someone decides to destabalize my > casual play fun...). So your point here is not valid. Please, try > again. Can be removed as a vote action. Big difference. The real Anarch Revolt decks (nor the toy ones, the ones with 60-70 master cards) are playing with fatties which have votes. Anson is an automatic choice, and the IC members are also popular because of their huge Minion Tap + Golconda potential. So unless you're playing a vote decks and/or there are other votes on the table, you may not be able to remove them at all. Even if you do, AR decks count on some of them being removed. They play 1-3 of them per round, typically. I suspect the next generation of these will include Personal Involvement, in case the prey somehow manages to bloat. //Petri

FC wrote: > Wouldn't the indy title "stick" beneath the Archbishop title and become > active when he was excommunicated? Nope. Once you trade in a title for another, that's it. (You may be thinking of the sect specific titles; if Arika goes Into the Fire, she loses her Inner Circle title, but, assuming she doesn't gain another one, she gets it back if she then goes Out of the Frying Pan) --Colin McGuigan

vol...@yahoo.com (Eric Simon) wrote in message news:<6f81fa2c.04052...@posting.google.com>... > My limited experience with Gehenna events so far is that for the big > ones the opportunity cost is so high that if you are careful about > playing them (not indiscriminately playing ones that hose your > they're only going to be useful to you in a small number of > games. Time will tell, but last night a Chicago player played an > Alifa/Beckett(adv) deck, putting nearly all the Gehenna cards into > play. It hurt his prey least of the entire table, and he got no VPs. > The problem was that the deck drove itself - he couldn't really > control it as well as he needed to in order to focus on his prey. Boris was just experimenting. We'll see a much more focused version of the same deck next week, I bet. Bet he takes out Afifa, too. I think the thing to do with Gehenna events is to pack the "Magic Bullets" that don't hurt your deck. Large caps pack Nightmares Upon Nightmares, weenies pack Wormwood. Building a deck that gains an advantage of more than half the Gehenna cards at once looks suboptimal.

Petri Wessman wrote: > We've talked about how to fight this type of deck over here, and so far have > drawn a pretty big blank... and we're not exactly amateurs over here. Well, Blood Trade hoses the boon aspect, messes up the intended "keep 'em in play until they're my prey" plan, allowing others to gain VP's with a quick oust... But it's a Hail Mary at best. --CV

"XZealot" <nbr...@rapidretailsolutions.com> wrote in message news:<2hn4cmF...@uni-berlin.de>... > "Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message > news:a23a105e.04052...@posting.google.com... > > "XZealot" <nbr...@rapidretailsolutions.com> wrote in message > news:<2hjmphF...@uni-berlin.de>... > > > Going monoclan guaratees that you will be able to play all of your clan > > > based toys regardless of crypt draw. I know that if you do a 50/50 > split > > > then you will most likely be able to play all the toys involved, but you > > > also may draw two multually incompatable draws such as all 1 clan or all > 1 > > > of the other clan. > > > > Possibly. I just feel more comfortable considering the other 94% of > > the cases. > > There are quite a few cases where 94% is incorrect. Art Museum, Arcane > Library, Eco Terrorists require 2 of the same clan, one ready and one > uncontrolled. Yes. They are less optimal for mixed crypts. They may still be viable, as getting a vampire into uncontrolled is generally easier (costs only a pool if you do not plan to influence out). If you play 6-6 and drew 3-1, the remaining 8 cards will contain 3-5 copies, meaning you are more likely to get a vamp from the second clan. Of course, if you actually want to influence out the newcomer (instead of just bloating a bit with the location) you will encounter additional difficulties. > Brujah Debate, Toreador Grand Ball, etc.. require two ready > of a single clan. Some such as Palla Grande only give benifit to one clan > in play. So playing with any of these cards in a mixed crypt is > suboptimal. Some cards only affect members of one sect, such as Archon, so > you can only play with members of one sect yet not their counterparts, > EuroBrujah. Agreed. I was referring more to disciplines-based decks. Granted, you will not be able to exploit any of the cards mentioned. > So contrary to the illusory 94% you give above, quite a few strong decktypes > rely and therefore require going monoclan. Yes. But IMHO quite a few more enjoy far greater benefits from optimizing their discipline spreads instead of restricting themselves to a single clan. You could probably list decks for each clan that rely on their clan-based cards (or sect-based cards, etc.) to a degree that mono-clan is clearly beneficial. Decks that rely on disciplines are, however, at a clear advantage in mixing clans. Bye, Daneel

I think it was Albert Chang <na...@hotmail.com>, who once wrote: > "vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:f987c6cd.04052...@posting.google.com... > > If only they rewrote the anarhc mechanic to allow a titled vampire to > > give up his title and go anarch. Wouldn't that be SO much better? > > I'd love that, Elisabetta might actually find some use in that case (and > yes, I want Elisabetta to work somehow, same with Patrizia) And Dr. Jest can go on a Border Skirmish! Oh, why did he have to be a primogen? :( Rogar

flou...@rcn.com (John Flournoy) wrote in message news:<57327a82.04052...@posting.google.com>... > vermil...@yahoo.com (vermillian) wrote in message news:<f987c6cd.04052...@posting.google.com>... > > flou...@rcn.com (John Flournoy) wrote in message news:<57327a82.04052...@posting.google.com>... > > > Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:<40b34a28$0$8840$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at>... > > > Without flaming you, I find it very hard to take a comment like 'the > > > stasis the game is currently in might destroy the game' seriously when > > > there are dozens and dozens of recent posters talking about how the > > > game has changed _too much_ with Gehenna and that the game environment > > > might be destroyed as a result. > > > > Keep in mind that there have already been, for years and years, cards > that you can play that hose people based on what type deck they are > playing. Judgement: Camarilla Segregation is a fine example. If I put > J:CS in play (especially if I play more than one), I could certainly > be crippling the game of anybody playing non-Cam no matter where they > are sitting. > > And I'd probably be called a total idiot if I did so when the only > person playing non-Cam was my grand-prey, regardless of 'casual game' > or 'tournament game'. > Well, I have this Malk out-of-turn vote deck, with half a dozen Dramatic Upheavals and about 8 J:CS... Yes, it screws people over cross-table, and folks hate it, but at least I have a strategy to go along with it. What is really annoying is folks playing these unstabilizing cards without a clear benefit for themselves. Luckily, this is rare, but good grief can it ruin your game. As such, I can understand Vermillion's point of view (even if he overstates the impact the Events will have in a few months' time, I think). (snip well-reasoned arguments as to why the Events are not a total disaster to V:TES) I think we are, in major parts, agreeing, and even Vermillion isn't that much at loggerheads with you, I am sure. We'll just have to be patient for a month or two. Regards, Patrick

"Petri Wessman" <nos...@orava.org> wrote in message news:LtGtc.4420$GP3....@reader1.news.jippii.net... [ quoted text not captured ] Maybe in the land of Oz or where ever you play this is a problem. Where i'm from we have a card called sudden reversal. Problem with an Anarch Revolt ONLY based deck is that it is built on a chain of cards. And a single well placed sudden reversal will make the entire chain fall apart at the seams. Dont like that he can play so many a turn, sudden his parthanon. Wait till he minion taps, then trys to golconda, opps, sudden, rush kill that vampire. There goes that idea. And just think of the priceless look on his face when he life boons to keep your prey alive, and you sudden it. Boom, you are up 6 pool and the table falls for you, not him. Come on people have been saying the same crap about AR forever. It is not nearly as big of a deal as you make it out to be. And if a single obedience or majesty will shut down your local combat decks i think you have more to worry about then AR. -- The Nosferatu Stuff

The Nosferatu Stuff wrote: > Maybe in the land of Oz or where ever you play this is a problem. Where i'm > from we have a card called sudden reversal. Problem with an Anarch Revolt > ONLY based deck is that it is built on a chain of cards. No it's not. It's built on 50+ masters. > And a single well > placed sudden reversal will make the entire chain fall apart at the seams. > Dont like that he can play so many a turn, sudden his parthanon. Wait till > he minion taps, then trys to golconda, opps, sudden, rush kill that vampire. How many suddens do you pack in a deck? 2? Maybe 3? Vs 50+ masters? Sudden the Parthenon -- good move, but eventually he'll get another one. Sudden the Golconda after a minion tap -- doesn't matter, he's already got his investment back, so is no worse for the wear. Sudden a Life Boon intended for your prey, and you get the VP, but there's no guarantee the table will mystically fall for you. The AR deck only needs 3 VPs to win. This of course ignores the fact that unless you're talking 9+ suddens, your chances of having one in hand at any given time are slim. --Colin McGuigan

The Nosferatu Stuff wrote: > Maybe in the land of Oz or where ever you play this is a problem. Where > i'm > from we have a card called sudden reversal. Problem with an Anarch Revolt > ONLY based deck is that it is built on a chain of cards. And a single > well placed sudden reversal will make the entire chain fall apart at the > seams. No offense, but this makes it pretty clear that you've never seen one of the vicious variants of this type of deck. Sudden Reversals make just about no difference. You Sudden one master card, he has 60+ more. How many Suddens are you packing? If it's around 20 it will start to make a difference - and then we're talking about a dedicated "anti-deck" to the Anarch Revolt one. Which is precisely the problem. //Petri

> If the Anarch Revolt deck has gotten really lucky, it can have up to > five master phase actions: > > 1) The normal one > 2) Rumors of Gehenna > 3) The Parthenon > 4) Anson > 5) Huitzipochtli Wrong. Anson and Rumors don“t add up. Same is true for Anthelios. So 4 is the max, involving Huitzilo. From my experience the better Anson/AR decks don“t feature Huitzi (too big) so the max is usually 3. > So, lay down 2-3 Anarch Revolts, and then Minion Tap/Golconda (or both) > your fatty. Well that makes you gain 4 pool/turn in the average. (Gain 16 and spend 8 on the next Anson, happens every 2 turns). Not a *very* strong bloat. After all Anson/AR heavliy relies on Life Boon to control who dies first. Therefore just sit there with the Sudden Reversal in your hand and wait until you can Sudden the Life Boon. Or rush Anson and put him into torpor and make him stay there. Well Anson/AR is a decent concept, but has a lot of drawbacks and can be quite easily stopped by good players. Admittedly it“s quite strong against inexperienced players who have never seen such a deck. -- johannes walch

Johannes Walch wrote: >>If the Anarch Revolt deck has gotten really lucky, it can have up to >>five master phase actions: >> >>1) The normal one >>2) Rumors of Gehenna >>3) The Parthenon >>4) Anson >>5) Huitzipochtli > > > Wrong. Anson and Rumors don´t add up. Same is true for Anthelios. > So 4 is the max, involving Huitzilo. From my experience the better Anson/AR > decks > don´t feature Huitzi (too big) so the max is usually 3. True. Though it shouldn't be that hard to include a few Information Highways to get Huitzi out. >>So, lay down 2-3 Anarch Revolts, and then Minion Tap/Golconda (or both) >>your fatty. > > > Well that makes you gain 4 pool/turn in the average. (Gain 16 and spend 8 on > the next Anson, happens every 2 turns). > Not a *very* strong bloat. ??? What would be *very* strong then? Many decks rely on HG+BD for pool gain, that's 1 pool/turn, not counting initial investment and other complications. GtU nets you 2 pool/action, with strings attached (if you want the pool you have to spend transfers, if you want the minion you get a transfer bonus). How many decks do you see playing GtU for pool gain every turn? Other than the Crypt Machine, it's usually a couple per game, never very consistent. A deck that can generate 2 pool/turn consistently will be seen as strong, and probably a threat to the table. Old 5th + Minion Tap could get up to 10 pool/minion tap, but that would typically not happen every turn (that deck needs its minions alive and master phases every now and then). Once every couple of turns (on average) sounds about right, that puts it at 5 pool/turn. And _that_ was deemed abusive! And a AR deck doesn't even need any other minion, it only has to invest ~10 pool on Anson and Parthenon, so it gets a headstart over most decks which tend to spend 15-20 pool on minions anyway. > Or rush Anson and put him into torpor and make him stay there. Obedience. If you're rushing with a 9 or 10 cap on a AR table, you're probably dead already. Flux

On Mon, 31 May 2004 09:58:07 +0100, Flux <the_...@hotmail.com> scrawled: >> Or rush Anson and put him into torpor and make him stay there. > >Obedience. If you're rushing with a 9 or 10 cap on a AR table, you're >probably dead already. also, i am not sure how you make him stay in torpor. isn't half the point of this theoretical deck to play Golcondas on anson? salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email) "I like to play the field"-LSJ

> What would be *very* strong then? [snip a lot of examples] Well, all of the examples you did for bloating are more or less correct (though I have seen many games with 2-3 blood dolls per player). But you fail to mention that all of these decks do more than bloating. E.g they can vote, attack or whatever which the Anson deck simply cannot. If the Anson deck gets swarmed, by let愀ay a !Toreador Embrace deck, it愀 almost dead. Because those decks can bleed for 8-10 per turn very quickly. >> Or rush Anson and put him into torpor and make him stay there. >Obedience. If you're rushing with a 9 or 10 cap on a AR table, you're >probably dead already. You are right. Killing Anson is not that easy, but I have seen it happen more than once. By the time Anson hits the table, weenie combat decks allready have 2 minions out. That means the anson player must have 2 Obedience in hand, not very likely with the 8-9 usually in the deck. And certainly my strongest argument is the Sudden on the Life Boon thing. You didn愒 quote that :-) Ah and as the prey of the Anson deck it愀 also clever not to influence more than 1 minion and try to stay over 20 pool with some bloat. Then you have a big chance of winning the table, because you won愒 die first. -- johannes walch

Johannes Walch wrote: > Wrong. Anson and Rumors don“t add up. Same is true for Anthelios. Yeah, you're about a week behind the other person that pointed that out. Ron, what's his consolation prize? > Well that makes you gain 4 pool/turn in the average. (Gain 16 and spend 8 on > the next Anson, happens every 2 turns). > Not a *very* strong bloat. 4/turn doesn't need to be _very_ strong bloat. After all, you've also got your Art Museum (+1/1 turn), your Brothers Grimm (+5/5 turns), ... > After all Anson/AR heavliy relies on Life Boon to control who dies first. > Therefore just sit there with the Sudden Reversal in your hand and wait > until you can Sudden the Life Boon. Great move. If the person to be ousted is your prey. And if the AR deck doesn't have the Succubus Club to preemptively give people pool. Or to give someone an Extremis Boon card. Etc. > Or rush Anson and put him into torpor and make him stay there. Neither Minion Tap nor Golconda require the vampire to be ready. So, good luck. > Well Anson/AR is a decent concept, but has a lot of drawbacks and can be > quite easily stopped by good players. > Admittedly it“s quite strong against inexperienced players who have never > seen such a deck. It can be stopped, no doubt about it -- but it generally requires the table to recognize it as *the* threat and work together to stop it. I don't think I've ever seen it stopped by just the predator/prey. --Colin McGuigan

vol...@yahoo.com (Eric Simon) wrote in message news:<6f81fa2c.04052...@posting.google.com>... > athosg...@gmx.at (Angus, the Unruled) wrote in message news:<690c2085.04052...@posting.google.com>... > > Stefan Ferenci <a950n...@unet.s.p.a.m.univie.ac.at> wrote in message >news:<40b34a28$0$8840$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at>... > > > > The randomness of some Gehenna events is very bothersome, and quite > > likely to make a farce out of a game that used to at least in some > > instances rely on deckdesign, experience and strategy - and not pure > > luck. > > Bah, this game has always included elements of pure luck, like table > seating. And we've always had plenty of effects that do not > discriminate between friend and foe. Someone else has said something > along these lines, but I want to push it a little farther - If you > play a Gehenna Event (or Anarch Revolt, Judgement:Camarilla > Segregation, Autarkis Persecution, etc.) that hurts your prey and/or > predator the most, you have played well. If it hurts your grandprey > the most, you have played poorly. If it manages by some miracle to > hose everyone but you and you get the sweep, you have played VERY > well. If it manages to hose everybody but your prey, then you have > played VERY poorly. > > Global effects require skill. They always have. Events are no > different, and though we may see some initial spike in their use, > ultimately I think they'll have very little effect - either positive > or negative - on poor play. Poor play will always exist, and how well > you deal with it is part of what makes a really great player. It's > really just another vehicle for poor play, so it will necessarily keep > the great players on their toes. I just can't bring myself to feel > bad about that. > > Eric Simon > Prince of Chicago > Anarch Newsletter Writer Then tell me, oh Master of global effects, how you will make it so that your grandprey doesn't get a mastercard shown up for an discipline card he used (with veil of darkness in play). Random factors are good, and needed in a game. But, as with all things, it's the dose that makes it either good or bad. With Veil of darkness, there is no pokerface to see through, no guessing at what he might play or might have in hand .. it's either a mastercard or not .. so it's purely luck (without Tusk).

>Then tell me, oh Master of global effects, how you will make it so >that your grandprey doesn't get a mastercard shown up for an >discipline card he used (with veil of darkness in play). > >Random factors are good, and needed in a game. But, as with all >things, it's the dose that makes it either good or bad. >With Veil of darkness, there is no pokerface to see through, no >guessing at what he might play or might have in hand .. it's either a >mastercard or not .. so it's purely luck (without Tusk). If you build a deck right (assuming its possible), then you don't care whether it randomly causes other players problems or doesn't. You break the symmetry by never being unduly affected by it, so you are stronger against everyone. If table balance is a concern, the other cards in your deck can help that or you adapt your tactics to people's luck.

athosg...@gmx.at (Angus, the Unruled) wrote in message news:<690c2085.04060...@posting.google.com>... > Then tell me, oh Master of global effects, how you will make it so > that your grandprey doesn't get a mastercard shown up for an > discipline card he used (with veil of darkness in play). > [snip] > ... it's either a > mastercard or not .. so it's purely luck (without Tusk). Hey, it sounds like you answered your own question, huh? Granted, a Tusk/Courier/Veil of Darkness deck sounds painfully convoluted, but there ya go.

athosg...@gmx.at (Angus, the Unruled) wrote in message news:<690c2085.04060...@posting.google.com>... > vol...@yahoo.com (Eric Simon) wrote in message news:<6f81fa2c.04052...@posting.google.com>... > > Global effects require skill. They always have. Events are no > > different, and though we may see some initial spike in their use, > > ultimately I think they'll have very little effect - either positive > > or negative - on poor play. Poor play will always exist, and how well > > you deal with it is part of what makes a really great player. It's > > really just another vehicle for poor play, so it will necessarily keep > > the great players on their toes. I just can't bring myself to feel > > bad about that. > > > > Eric Simon > > Prince of Chicago > > Anarch Newsletter Writer > > Then tell me, oh Master of global effects, how you will make it so > that your grandprey doesn't get a mastercard shown up for an > discipline card he used (with veil of darkness in play). > > Random factors are good, and needed in a game. But, as with all > things, it's the dose that makes it either good or bad. > With Veil of darkness, there is no pokerface to see through, no > guessing at what he might play or might have in hand .. it's either a > mastercard or not .. so it's purely luck (without Tusk). Um, when did I ever say that the specific card effects require skill rather than luck? If that's what I meant, where the hell is the skill in Anarch Revolt. (Oh look, it happens. How skilled I must be.) I said that playing global effects requires skill, and that's BECAUSE the results can be unpredictable. The skill comes in table management, not in somehow magically deciding what card will be on top of your grandprey's library. For instance, you play Veil of Darkness when you want to shut down everyone else's discipline-based powers, i.e. if you are not playing anything discipline-based. THEN, you explain to your grandprey that if they just hang out for a bit you should be able to hose their predator enough for them to go forward. I never mean "poker face" or "bluffing" when I refer to skill in V:TES. Deck-building, tactical decisions, deal-making, table management - these are all part of being skilled at V:TES. Playing with global effects means you must be particularly skilled in these aspects of the game, nothing else. Otherwise such effects will make you lose 9 times out of 10. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] [snip suggestions that will only make it so you die slower, not win] My suggestion to your group (and all other groups for that matter): when you realize what deck it is (about turn 2?) then EVERYONE at the table agrees to stop EVERYTHING they're doing and use EVERY ACTION to deal with the lazy player and his stupid deck. This philosophy applies (or, in a perfect Kevin world, *should* apply) to several cards when they hit the table (AR, Smiling Jack) and certain decktypes when you see them (weenie CH/AR, Smiling Jack wall). If EVERYONE does this EVERY TIME, the lazy player will stop playing this deck and move on to something requiring a bit more thought. In my old playgroup, we pretty much shamed each other into not playing certain decks *too* often, since we're better players than that, and I firmly believe that it made us better players, as we explored more disciplines and deck types instead of that old hash. And if the problem is that he's just not *smart* enough to realize what's going on, and you don't want to kick him out of your playgroup (I can think of two players in the USA that fit this definition) then obviously you've got some work to do to help him become a better player. > //Petri Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

"Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote in message news:<JGLvc.38295$oi5.21119@fed1read07>... Oh cool! Another Anarch Revolt Post! My, this takes me back... > Petri Wessman <nos...@orava.org> wrote: > > Colin McGuigan wrote: > > > >> d. hathorn wrote: > >>>>If you think AR is ok, you've never seen one of these monsters play > >>>>3 ARs per round and bloat around 10 pool per round. > >>> > >>> Uh... how? > >> > >> If the Anarch Revolt deck has gotten really lucky, it can have up to > >> five master phase actions: > >> > >> 1) The normal one > >> 2) Rumors of Gehenna > >> 3) The Parthenon > >> 4) Anson > >> 5) Huitzipochtli > >> > >> So, lay down 2-3 Anarch Revolts, and then Minion Tap/Golconda (or > >> both) your fatty. Rumours and Anson don't work together do they? There is that Settite who can burn the edge to give you a boost, though. > > Precisely. This is not theoretical, I've seen these things win > > tournaments over here. I'm not saying it's trivial to build a deck > > that really works, but once it's done it does become a bit of a > > problem. Why? Because it almost totally circumvents the normal game > > mechanics. Basically, all it does is play Masters, tons of them. No > > actions, rushes are met with Obedience/Majesty. It makes sure that > > everyone drops in the correct order by playing life boons, and in > > emergency cases calling a table-rearranging vote. > > > > We've talked about how to fight this type of deck over here, and so > > far have drawn a pretty big blank... and we're not exactly amateurs > > over here. > > > > Things that have a small chance of working: > > [snip suggestions that will only make it so you die slower, not win] > > My suggestion to your group (and all other groups for that matter): when > you realize what deck it is (about turn 2?) then EVERYONE at the table > agrees to stop EVERYTHING they're doing and use EVERY ACTION to deal with > the lazy player and his stupid deck. The funny thing is, this so rarely happens. What actually happens is the table suddenly does mental gymnastics to see how long they can survive, how long their prey can survive, and usually just turn up the juice to oust quicker. This is even more the case for newer players. You CAN bully everyone into voting it down, but in all honesty, any Anarch Revolt deck worth it's salt should be so chock full of anti-vote, the whole issue should be moot. > This philosophy applies (or, in a perfect Kevin world, *should* apply) to > several cards when they hit the table (AR, Smiling Jack) and certain > decktypes when you see them (weenie CH/AR, Smiling Jack wall). See above. Smiling Jack is a much slower burn than Anarch Revolts and isn't nearly as dangerous since you can burn blood and it's unique. > If EVERYONE does this EVERY TIME, the lazy player will stop playing this > deck and move on to something requiring a bit more thought. In my old > playgroup, we pretty much shamed each other into not playing certain decks > *too* often, since we're better players than that, and I firmly believe that > it made us better players, as we explored more disciplines and deck types > instead of that old hash. People usually stop playing them due to the levels of abuse they get and also since they are one of the hardest decks to actually WIN with. Since you beat up everyone simultaneously, the player who can do the most damage quickest usually wins. Anarch Revolt decks tend not to have much else in them except vote defence and Anarch Revolts. > And if the problem is that he's just not *smart* enough to realize what's > going on, and you don't want to kick him out of your playgroup (I can think > of two players in the USA that fit this definition) then obviously you've > got some work to do to help him become a better player. See above. He'll buckle under torrents of abuse and the pointlessness of it all when he repeatedly loses whilst helping the sneak bleeder win. Dave

Raille expounded: > making their chance of winning worst, and people *want* to win. Do you have some evidence to back up this assertion? A lot, if not most, or the people I play with would rather have an interesting game than win.

Timlagor <TimSl...@yaMhoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<MPG.1b30fc9f...@news.eclipse.co.uk>... [ quoted text not captured ] Agreed. The same people that only care about winning are the ones that are constantly whining on things and trashes the game IMHO.