Lucita -- play Lasombra cards?

Forgive me if someone has already answered this, but can Lucita play Lasombra cards? Obviously, Malk Antitribu can't play Malk cards, etc., but my thought would be that she could play Lasombra cards because she is not marked as a different clan (I believe it says Independent on her, she has a Lasombra background and symbol, but I don't know about the sabbat bloodspot). Course, I don't have the card yet, but . . . Anyone? Thanks. Neil Paananen Archbishop of Denver

"Neil" <paan...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Forgive me if someone has already answered this, > but can Lucita play Lasombra cards? Sure. She fulfills the requirement for any card that requires a Lasombra. However, she doesn't fulfill the requirement for cards that require a Sabbat vampire. What I find odd, now that I think about it, is that her card text states "Independent" instead of the "Non-Camarilla" text that the Ravnos, Giovanni, Setites and Assamites vampires state. Regards, Noal McDonald -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

See section 10 of the new rulebook. http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/rulebook.html I would assume that future Non-Camarilla & Non-Sabbat vampires will also state 'Independent' instead of 'Non-Camarilla' to avoid the confusion created when Sabbat came out. In article <8li0r4$1lc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > What I find odd, now that I think about it, is that her card text > states "Independent" instead of the "Non-Camarilla" text that the > Ravnos, Giovanni, Setites and Assamites vampires state. ------------------------------- Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin et...@ddg.com http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8lhq2b$bcq$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>, "Neil" <paan...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Forgive me if someone has already answered this, but can Lucita play > Lasombra cards? Obviously, Malk Antitribu can't play Malk cards, etc., but > my thought would be that she could play Lasombra cards because she is not > marked as a different clan (I believe it says Independent on her, she has a > Lasombra background and symbol, but I don't know about the sabbat > bloodspot). Course, I don't have the card yet, but . . . > > Anyone? Thanks. Unfortunantly, she may not play Lasombra cards. The clan symbol which is in the top left corner is not the Lasombra symbol but the Lasombra antitribe symbol. She is not a Lasombra and therefore maynot play Lasombra cards. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

Neil wrote: > > Forgive me if someone has already answered this, but can Lucita play > Lasombra cards? Obviously, Malk Antitribu can't play Malk cards, etc., but > my thought would be that she could play Lasombra cards because she is not > marked as a different clan (I believe it says Independent on her, she has a > Lasombra background and symbol, but I don't know about the sabbat > bloodspot). Course, I don't have the card yet, but . . . Yes. She is Lasombra. She isn't Sabbat (she's Independent), so couldn't, for example, attempt a Crusade: Miami action, but she could receive a stealth from the Elysian Fields or play a Camarilla Vitae Slave, for example. If she creates an Embrace, the Embrace will be Lasombra ("the same clan as the acting vampire"), and will be Sabbat (the default sect for a member of Clan Lasombra). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Noal McDonald wrote in message <8li0r4$1lc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>... > "Neil" <paan...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >> Forgive me if someone has already answered this, >> but can Lucita play Lasombra cards? > >Sure. She fulfills the requirement for any card that requires a >Lasombra. However, she doesn't fulfill the requirement for cards that >require a Sabbat vampire. > >What I find odd, now that I think about it, is that her card text states >"Independent" instead of the "Non-Camarilla" text that the Ravnos, >Giovanni, Setites and Assamites vampires state. > Remember, though, that "Non-Camarilla" means both Independant and Sabbat, so it isn't enough of a definition anymore. Effectively, the four clans you mention are all meant to say Independent. "Non-Cam" was thought to be sufficient at the time DS and AH were printed. Not so anymore (this thankfully makes Closed Session quite a useful card...) Regards, R. David Zopf Atom Weaver V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC

Noal McDonald wrote: > Sure. [Lucita] fulfills the requirement for any card that requires a > Lasombra. However, she doesn't fulfill the requirement for cards that > require a Sabbat vampire. > > What I find odd, now that I think about it, is that her card text states > "Independent" instead of the "Non-Camarilla" text that the Ravnos, > Giovanni, Setites and Assamites vampires state. From the rulebook: Other clans (introduced in the Dark Sovereigns(TM) and Ancient Hearts(TM) expansions) are identified simply as "Non-Camarilla" on card text*. These vampires are not aligned with either sect; they are called Independent. * The term "Non-Camarilla" is slightly misleading, since the Sabbat vampires are "Non-Camarilla" as well, and the Independent vampires are as much "Non-Sabbat" as they are "Non-Camarilla". (Section 10) [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > The clan symbol which > is in the top left corner is not the Lasombra symbol but the Lasombra > antitribe symbol. She is not a Lasombra and therefore maynot play > Lasombra cards. That symbol is the new World of Darkness (the "real" world upon which V:TES is based) symbol for Lasombra. It replaces the old 'L' symbol. Both symbols serve to identify Lasombra. Any new Lasombra printed will use the new symbol. Similarly, the Tzimisce symbol has also been changed in the World of Darkness. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <397C7480...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Neil wrote: > > > > Forgive me if someone has already answered this, but can Lucita play > > Lasombra cards? Obviously, Malk Antitribu can't play Malk cards, etc., but > > my thought would be that she could play Lasombra cards because she is not > > marked as a different clan (I believe it says Independent on her, she has a > > Lasombra background and symbol, but I don't know about the sabbat > > bloodspot). Course, I don't have the card yet, but . . . > > Yes. She is Lasombra. > > She isn't Sabbat (she's Independent), so couldn't, for example, attempt > a Crusade: Miami action, but she could receive a stealth from the Elysian > Fields or play a Camarilla Vitae Slave, for example. > > If she creates an Embrace, the Embrace will be Lasombra ("the same clan > as the acting vampire"), and will be Sabbat (the default sect for a > member of Clan Lasombra). > LSJ, I believe you are mistaken as to which clan the crown on a blood splotch belongs to. It belongs to Lasombra Antitrubu, who split with the clan when the antedelluvian was diablerised. So, she could no more play Lasombra cards than Ian Forestal could play Tremere cards. Also it goes against card text. The symbols are different for the Lasombra "L" and the Lasombra Antitribu crown/bloodsplotch. Which by the definition of the rules the cards which require a clan must have a ready vampire of the same clan as the clan symbol in the left hand boarder. Her clan symbol does not even match the "L" in the left-hand boarder. So from a gameplay point of view it makes no sense for her to be able to play Lasombra cards. If you grabbed a White Wolf catalog from the White Wolf booth at Dragon Con, then you should see under the pins section that the crown on a bloodsplotch is a Lasombra Antitribu (I vahuely remember there being pictures in the catalog). [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> writes: >Neil wrote: >> >> Forgive me if someone has already answered this, but can Lucita play >> Lasombra cards? Obviously, Malk Antitribu can't play Malk cards, etc., but >> my thought would be that she could play Lasombra cards because she is not >> marked as a different clan (I believe it says Independent on her, she has a >> Lasombra background and symbol, but I don't know about the sabbat >> bloodspot). Course, I don't have the card yet, but . . . > >Yes. She is Lasombra. > >She isn't Sabbat (she's Independent), so couldn't, for example, attempt >a Crusade: Miami action, but she could receive a stealth from the Elysian >Fields or play a Camarilla Vitae Slave, for example. > >If she creates an Embrace, the Embrace will be Lasombra ("the same clan >as the acting vampire"), and will be Sabbat (the default sect for a >member of Clan Lasombra). This is the first example of a kindred being a member of a clan but not the sect that the clan is normally associated with, is it not? If so, I hope this doesn't expose any new wrinkles in the rules. Or I should say, any _more_ new wrinkles, as this business of Lucita's embraced being a member of the Sabbat even though Lucita isn't is an example of just what I'm talking about. I suppose something like this was going to come up some day. Fred

In article <397CA0C0...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > The clan symbol which > > is in the top left corner is not the Lasombra symbol but the Lasombra > > antitribe symbol. She is not a Lasombra and therefore maynot play > > Lasombra cards. > > That symbol is the new World of Darkness (the "real" world upon which > V:TES is based) symbol for Lasombra. It replaces the old 'L' symbol. > Both symbols serve to identify Lasombra. Any new Lasombra printed will > use the new symbol. > > Similarly, the Tzimisce symbol has also been changed in the World of > Darkness. You are correct. They have been changed, but you are mistaken as to what they have been changed to. Lucita clearly has the Lasombra antitribu symbol not the new Lasombra symbol. Please follow these two links to the new symbols. for the Lasombra antitribu symbol that is displayed on her card goto http://secure.white- wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&-- eqskudatarq=5668 for the new Lasombra symbol goto http://secure.white- wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&-- eqskudatarq=5634 I appologise for the length of the thread but this is a internet community, and no this is not the tequila worm talking. [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > > The clan symbol which is in the top left corner [of Lucita's > > > card] is not the Lasombra symbol but the Lasombra antitribe > > > symbol. > > > > That symbol is the new World of Darkness (the "real" world upon > > which V:TES is based) symbol for Lasombra. > > You are correct. They have been changed, but you are mistaken as to > what they have been changed to. Lucita clearly has the Lasombra > antitribu symbol not the new Lasombra symbol. Please follow these two > links to the new symbols. > > for the Lasombra antitribu symbol that is displayed on her card goto http://secure.white-wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&--eqskudatarq=5668 Her card does not display that symbol - it merely displays the standard Lasombra symbol (below) on the Sabbat wax seal (not in the "compass star" that the Lasombra antitribu symbol has). Technically, I suppose, the Sabbat wax seal should not be used since she is not Sabbat, but, for the card game, the clan symbol includes both the crown and the wax seal. > for the new Lasombra symbol goto http://secure.white-wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&--eqskudatarq=5634 -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

fre...@netcom.com (Frederick Scott) wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> writes: > > [Lucita] isn't Sabbat (she's Independent), so couldn't, > > for example, attempt a Crusade: Miami action, but she > > could receive a stealth from the Elysian Fields or play > > a Camarilla Vitae Slave, for example. > > > > If she creates an Embrace, the Embrace will be Lasombra > > ("the same clan as the acting vampire"), and will be > > Sabbat (the default sect for a member of Clan Lasombra). > > This is the first example of a kindred being a member of a > clan but not the sect that the clan is normally associated > with, is it not? The first example of it by text on the vampire, yes. It has been possible before with Writ of Acceptance. > If so, I hope this doesn't expose any new wrinkles in the > rules. Or I should say, any _more_ new wrinkles, as this > business of Lucita's embraced being a member of the Sabbat > even though Lucita isn't is an example of just what I'm > talking about. > > I suppose something like this was going to come up some day. It is not a new wrinkle - the same would be true if Gloria Giovanni with a Writ (A Camarilla Giovanni) created an Embrace - the Embrace would be Giovanni and Independent. Similarly for Nigel the Shunned with a Writ (A Camarilla Nosferatu Antitribu) who Embraces (A Nosferatu Antitribu who is Sabbat). And thus for Lucita as well. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8lk00q$epr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > > X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > > > The clan symbol which is in the top left corner [of Lucita's > > > > card] is not the Lasombra symbol but the Lasombra antitribe > > > > symbol. > > > > > > That symbol is the new World of Darkness (the "real" world upon > > > which V:TES is based) symbol for Lasombra. > > > > You are correct. They have been changed, but you are mistaken as to > > what they have been changed to. Lucita clearly has the Lasombra > > antitribu symbol not the new Lasombra symbol. Please follow these two > > links to the new symbols. > > > > for the Lasombra antitribu symbol that is displayed on her card goto > > http://secure.white-wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&--eqskudatarq=5668 > > Her card does not display that symbol - it merely displays the > standard Lasombra symbol (below) on the Sabbat wax seal (not in the > "compass star" that the Lasombra antitribu symbol has). If you compare this to all the other antitribu symbols they all have the normal clan symbol laid on top of what you call a "compass star" > Technically, I suppose, the Sabbat wax seal should not be used > since she is not Sabbat, but, for the card game, the clan symbol > includes both the crown and the wax seal. Actually, the wax seal should be used for her as she is antitribu, but the rest of the Lasombra should not have the wax seal/compass star. Following the example the "L" on a bloodseal should translate as a crown without the blood seal. The compass star that denotes antitribu status on all antitribu clans should translate as a bloodseal in V:TES. > > for the new Lasombra symbol goto > > http://secure.white-wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&--eqskudatarq=5634 > Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > Actually, the wax seal should be used for her as she is > antitribu, but the rest of the Lasombra should not have the wax Lucita is not antitribu. There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game. She is Lasombra, and she is Independent (Non-Sabbat, Non-Camarilla). > seal/compass star. Following the example the "L" on a bloodseal > should translate as a crown without the blood seal. The compass > star that denotes antitribu status on all antitribu clans should > translate as a bloodseal in V:TES. Alright - you have apparently more background on this than I. But, to avoid confusing the reader who is interested in the ramifications for this game: The wax seal in this game is part of the clan symbol, and is part of the clan symbols for all clans that are part of the Sabbat - including Pander, Lasombra, and Tzimisce (which are not antitribu). The wax seal as part of a clan symbol "should translate" to the clan's membership in the Sabbat, in my opinion. Your mileage may vary. Reglardless of that opinion, however, Lucita remains a Lasombra (and can play cards that require Lasombra). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8lkc1u$ohn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > Actually, the wax seal should be used for her as she is > > antitribu, but the rest of the Lasombra should not have the wax > > Lucita is not antitribu. yes, she is. please refer to http://www.activision.com/games/vampire/ Where it says: Be It Known By All Present and Their Progeny, In response to the petition from Lucita, Lasombra antitribu and Beckett of Clan Gangrel, seeking preemptive-strike authority against kine targets for prevention of Masquerade breach: > There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game. There wasn't until they printed Lucita. > Alright - you have apparently more background on this than I. Not to belabor a point, but I guess I will. My problem with your ruling is that White Wolf is trying to make it as easy for players to transition from the card game to the roleplaying game and vice-versa. You do not do that by reversing which clan has which symbol. The Lasombra are one of the clans that is the backbone of the Sabbat. The Tzimice are the other. They are not antitribu clans and therefore do not have the wax seal behind the symbol, which IMHO is the reason they are changing symbols. The change in symbols also allows them do designate antitribu status by placing a starburst/waxseal behind the clan symbol. There are several Lasombra antitribu mentioned in the roleplaying game and Lucita is one of them. She is also designated antitribu. > The wax seal as part of a clan symbol "should translate" to the > clan's membership in the Sabbat, in my opinion. Your mileage > may vary. Reglardless of that opinion, however, Lucita remains a > Lasombra (and can play cards that require Lasombra). This is a seemingly self-contradictory statement. Lucita has a waxseal behind her clan symbol and independent in the bottom left-hand corner. I always thought that the little word Sabbat in the bottom left-hand corner designated Sabbat. I understand there is some difficulty in converting roleplaying characters to VTES. You are the rulemonger and these are the issues that create your job. I also understand you are on the design team for Sabbat War, and I respectfully disagree with how this is handled. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > In article <8lkc1u$ohn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > > > Lucita is not antitribu. > > yes, she is. please refer to [snip RPG reference] Maybe he should have said: (the) Lucita (card) is not (considered) antitribu (for purposes of game-play). > > There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game. > > There wasn't until they printed Lucita. OK, so you're basing this on the fact that there's an RPG vampire named Lucita who happens to be Lasombra Antitribu? That's like critiquing the Babylon 5 CCG version of John Sheridan by saying "in episode 13 from season 4, Sheridan clearly indicated that he had more Intrigue than Londo, so his Intrigue number should be higher than Londo's." OK, I am being a bit facetious, but you get my point. > Not to belabor a point, but I guess I will. My problem with your ruling > is that White Wolf is trying to make it as easy for players to > transition from the card game to the roleplaying game and vice-versa. > You do not do that by reversing which clan has which symbol. I should think that they're also trying not to alienate all the people who already play the game. Look, they're going to reprint all of the old Sabbat Lasombra with the new symbol (assuming what LSJ says is correct). So you'd say that the new Gratiano is an anti-Lasombra, whereas my old Gratiano (his evil twin, perhaps?) is regular non-anti Lasombra. That will cause no end of confusion. This is probably ill-advised, but let me use a math analogy: there is a set of vampires called "Lasombra". Included in this set are the "regular" Lasombra (confusingly called just "Lasombra") and "Lasombra antitribu". According to this thinking, Lucita _is_ a Lasombra. A special kind of Lasombra. Now, in game terms, the game differentiates between some "tribus" and anti-tribus (like the Brujah and Brujah antitribu), but not others. The game doesn't differentiate between Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu just like it doesn't differentiate between Assamites and Assamite antitribu (assuming such exist). Regardless of how you look at it, I think that (a) it won't be a big deal for players coming from V:TM to make the jump from Lucita being a Lasombra antitribu to her being an "independent" (non-Sabbat) Lasombra and (b) it _would_ be a big deal if we had to use the clan symbol to differentiate between Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu. They _could_ have done the printing in a way to make Lucita be a Lasombra antitribu, but they didn't. James -- James Hamblin ham...@math.wisc.edu "You never understood me / you never really tried." -- Kate Bush

> Maybe he should have said: (the) Lucita (card) is not (considered) > antitribu (for purposes of game-play). Bingo, a clarification on a card as soon as it is printed. I thought we were trying to avoid these types of things > > > There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game. > > > > There wasn't until they printed Lucita. > > OK, so you're basing this on the fact that there's an RPG vampire named > Lucita who happens to be Lasombra Antitribu? Actually the Lucita we are talking about is the Lucita from the Clan Novel:Lasombra. Notice the picture on the card is the cover from the clan novel. I am glad we now on the same page. That's like critiquing the > Babylon 5 CCG version of John Sheridan by saying "in episode 13 from > season 4, Sheridan clearly indicated that he had more Intrigue than > Londo, so his Intrigue number should be higher than Londo's." OK, I am > being a bit facetious, but you get my point. I don't play Babylon 5 nor do I like the television show so I don't get your point > I should think that they're also trying not to alienate all the people > who already play the game. Actually, I am trying to reduce the amount of confusion for new players entering the game from the RPG who are already familiar with the clan symbols. I am bringing this point up prior to the release of the Sabbat War while it is still being proofed so that possibly this new clan symbol for VTES may be altered to follow along the lines of the existing new clan symbol for V:TM. It is fact that players, who are already familiar with the V:TM and the other games from the White Wolf universe, become V:TES players more easily than other gamers because they have a firm grasp on the background material. I think new players are a good thing (TM), and I think that reversing who is antitribu and who is not is confusing to new players. > old Sabbat Lasombra with the new symbol (assuming what LSJ says is > correct). So you'd say that the new Gratiano is an anti-Lasombra, > whereas my old Gratiano (his evil twin, perhaps?) is regular non-anti > Lasombra. That will cause no end of confusion. James have you been following this thread? Please go to message number eight where I posted links to the new Lasombra symbols on the White-Wolf server. You will notice here that the old Lasombra "L" on a waxseal.starburst has been replace by a crown which is not on a waxseal/starburst. The crown on a waxseal/starburst is reserved for Lasombra antitribu. So now clan Lasombra has two symbols. The old one is a L on a waxseal/starburst, and the new one which is a crown without a waxseal/starburst. Lucita (the card) has a waxseal behind the crown, which prior to LSJ's contradictory statement above is the symbol for Lasombra antitribu. Now to address your point your old Gratiano will still be Lasombra because the L on a waxseal/starburst was the symbol for clan Lasombra. Clan Lasombra got a new symbol, but the old one is still valid. > This is probably ill-advised, but let me use a math analogy: there is a > set of vampires called "Lasombra". Included in this set are the > "regular" Lasombra (confusingly called just "Lasombra") and "Lasombra > antitribu". According to this thinking, Lucita _is_ a Lasombra. A > special kind of Lasombra. Now, in game terms, the game differentiates > between some "tribus" and anti-tribus (like the Brujah and Brujah > antitribu), but not others. The game doesn't differentiate between > Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu just like it doesn't differentiate > between Assamites and Assamite antitribu (assuming such exist). Good analogy, but like all analogies it is wrong. There is a reason people don't compare apples to oranges. That reason is because they are two different things. > Regardless of how you look at it, I think that (a) it won't be a big > deal for players coming from V:TM to make the jump from Lucita being a > Lasombra antitribu to her being an "independent" (non-Sabbat) Lasombra > and (b) it _would_ be a big deal if we had to use the clan symbol to > differentiate between Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu. They _could_ > have done the printing in a way to make Lucita be a Lasombra antitribu, > but they didn't. Strangely enough James, they use a different clan symbol to differentiate between Brujah Antitribu and Brujah and also every other clan that has a antitribu counterpart. V:TES is based upon the White Wolf game Vampire: The Masquerade and this is the source for all the clan symbols in Vampire:The Eternal Struggle which are identical for every clan in both V:TES and V:TM. This is my point. The clan symbol on the left hand boarder is the clan symbol for Lasombra antitribu. "Why?" you ask, because White Wolf has published both the Lasombra clan symbol and the Lasombra antitribu clan symbol for V:TM, but not for V:TES, and on top of that they have introduced a new clan symbol in V:TES which identical to be a Lasombra Antitribu symbol for everyplayer who plays V:TM which is the source for all intellectual properties used in V:TES. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > [snip RPG reference] > > Maybe he should have said: (the) Lucita (card) is not (considered) > antitribu (for purposes of game-play). Bingo, > > > There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game. > > > > There wasn't until they printed Lucita. > > OK, so you're basing this on the fact that there's an RPG vampire named > Lucita who happens to be Lasombra Antitribu? The Lucita card is based upon the Lucita vampire who's picture on the card in the same as the picture on the Clan Novel: Lasombra. They are one in the same. I am glad we are on the same page now. That's like critiquing the > Babylon 5 CCG version of John Sheridan by saying "in episode 13 from > season 4, Sheridan clearly indicated that he had more Intrigue than > Londo, so his Intrigue number should be higher than Londo's." OK, I am > being a bit facetious, but you get my point. Actually I don't play Babylon 5 and I don't watch the television show. So, I don't get what you are talking about. > > Not to belabor a point, but I guess I will. My problem with your ruling > > is that White Wolf is trying to make it as easy for players to > > transition from the card game to the roleplaying game and vice-versa. > > You do not do that by reversing which clan has which symbol. > > I should think that they're also trying not to alienate all the people > who already play the game. Look, they're going to reprint all of the > old Sabbat Lasombra with the new symbol (assuming what LSJ says is > correct). So you'd say that the new Gratiano is an anti-Lasombra, > whereas my old Gratiano (his evil twin, perhaps?) is regular non-anti > Lasombra. James, have you been following this arguement? Please refer to Message Eight in this thread where I posted: "You are correct. They have been changed, but you are mistaken as to what they have been changed to. Lucita clearly has the Lasombra antitribu symbol not the new Lasombra symbol. Please follow these two links to the new symbols. for the Lasombra antitribu symbol that is displayed on her card goto http://secure.white- wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&-- eqskudatarq=5668 for the new Lasombra symbol goto http://secure.white- wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&-- eqskudatarq=5634 You will notice that these threads lead you to the White Wolf server to two clan symbols. One a crown is the Lasombra symbol, and the other, a crown on a waxseal/starburst, is the Lasombra Antitribu symbol. These are new symbols for the clans. The old Lasombra symbol was a letter L on a waxseal/starcrest. Both the new Lasombra clan symbol (a crown) and the old Lasombra clansymbol (a L on a waxseal) are valid. So your old Gratiano is still a Lasombra, not a antitribu, because he bears the old and still valid Lasombra symbol. > This is probably ill-advised, but let me use a math analogy: there is a > set of vampires called "Lasombra". Included in this set are the > "regular" Lasombra (confusingly called just "Lasombra") and "Lasombra > antitribu". According to this thinking, Lucita _is_ a Lasombra. A > special kind of Lasombra. Now, in game terms, the game differentiates > between some "tribus" and anti-tribus (like the Brujah and Brujah > antitribu), but not others. The game doesn't differentiate between > Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu just like it doesn't differentiate > between Assamites and Assamite antitribu (assuming such exist). That is a good analogy. But like all analogies, it is wrong. There is a reason people don't compare apples oranges. That is because they are two different things. James, there are both Lasombra and Lasombra antitriu and also Assimites and Assimites Antitribu. Examples of both exist Lucita being a Lasombra Antitribu and Tariq being a Assimite Antitribu. > Regardless of how you look at it, I think that (a) it won't be a big > deal for players coming from V:TM to make the jump from Lucita being a > Lasombra antitribu to her being an "independent" (non-Sabbat) Lasombra > and (b) it _would_ be a big deal if we had to use the clan symbol to > differentiate between Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu. They _could_ > have done the printing in a way to make Lucita be a Lasombra antitribu, > but they didn't. Let me explain to you reason why I am yelling at the rain. The Sabbat war is hopefully in proofing right now. As you can see above White Wolf has already published the symbols for the Lasombra and their antitribu counterparts for Vampire: The Masquerade.. I know that L. Scott Johnson is on the design team. I believe IMHO that one of the reasons that White Wolf is continuing support for Vampire: The Eternal Struggle is that it allows them to tap into a very lucretive CCG market. In doing so people will crossover from the Vampire: The Eternal Struggle CCG into White Wolf's roleplaying games and vice-versa. As I am sure you know this is called cross-marketing. To create a environment for this to occur one must create similarities between the two. Lucita is a good example of a very prominent Lasombra Antitribu from the novels that new players can look at her in the new Inquest and say,"cool I remeber her". They then buy a pack of VTES cards to see what it is all about. Now if a very prominent Lasombra Antitribu (which is what her symbol is to anyone familiar with the roleplaying games of White Wolf) can now play Lasombra cards. This creates confusion to a new player who because he or she now thinks that all antitribu (Gangrel, Brujah, etc.) can play normal and antitribu in-clan cards, where as in reality they cannot. This sort of self-contradiction leads to disillusionment with the game and causes players to leave. Then they find out she is not a Lasombra antitribu but in reality a Lasombra, contrary to what they find familiar on the right hand margin which is a Lasombra Antitibu symbol. Again,this sort of self-contradiction leads to disillusionment with the game and causes players to leave. The only way players would know one way or the other is to check the newsqroup. So now are we requiring every player to have internet access on top of buying the cards, and be able to find and read the newsgroup. I want new players to pick up V:TES. I want Sabbat War to succeed. I am a huge fan of this game. I want there to be as little confusion for new players who are just picking up the game and are trying to teach themselves how to play. [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: snip >You will notice that these threads lead you to the White Wolf server to >two clan symbols. One a crown is the Lasombra symbol, and the other, a >crown on a waxseal/starburst, is the Lasombra Antitribu symbol. These >are new symbols for the clans. The old Lasombra symbol was a letter L on >a waxseal/starcrest. Both the new Lasombra clan symbol (a crown) and >the old Lasombra clansymbol (a L on a waxseal) are valid. So your old >Gratiano is still a Lasombra, not a antitribu, because he bears the old >and still valid Lasombra symbol. You realize, of course, Norm, that your argument hinges significantly upon having the wax seal on the old Sabbat VTES set equate to the compass star of the new anti-tribu clan symbols from V:TM. You use the term waxseal/starburst or waxseal/starcrest, like they were the same thing. I'm not so certain that's an accurate assessment, since it goes across two different game platforms. Mind you, I think it doesn't jive that a vampire independant of his/her clan should be able to have access to clan resources (Elysian Fields, Lasombra HG, etc. in Lucita's case) presumably due to their lack of involvement in clan politics/hierarchy. Regards, R. David Zopf guenh...@mindspring.com [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > The Lucita card is based upon the Lucita vampire who's picture on the > card in the same as the picture on the Clan Novel: Lasombra. They are > one in the same. I am glad we are on the same page now. My point is that while the Lucita card is based on the character from the book, the reproduction is not (and IMO cannot be) perfect. If the card game is not going to have any such thing as Lasombra antitribu (and I think the decision has been made, for reasons of simplicity), then they have to make the Lucita card conform somehow. Is it an imperfect reproduction. Yes. Is it worth including the extra complication (another clan, Lasombra antitribu) to resolve this imperfection? In my opinion, and apparent also in the opinions of the designers, no. > Actually I don't play Babylon 5 and I don't watch the television show. > So, I don't get what you are talking about. I was trying to use a non-Vampire analogy since my knowledge of the RPG world is slim. I'll try again: You could be saying "in the book, Lucita clearly displays knowledge of the discipline Mortification, whereas her card version doesn't have that discipline." (Note, that's a made-up word; feel free to replace it with some real V:TM discipline for which no cards have been printed.) Now, the designers _could_ print her with Mortification, but they'd have to make a new symbol for it, and would probably feel obligated to print some Mortification cards. This would unnecessarily complicate an already complex game. By analogy, the designers _could_ make the card Lucita be a Lasombra antitribu, but there aren't any Lasombra antitribu cards, and there are already what, 20 some clans in the game? I'm not saying that it would have been unreasonable for them to have done this, but they didn't. And I understand why they didn't. > So your old > Gratiano is still a Lasombra, not a antitribu, because he bears the old > and still valid Lasombra symbol. I will bet money that the new Gratiano will have the crown-on-waxseal symbol. This is the assumption on which my post was (and this one is) made. > James, there are both Lasombra and Lasombra antitriu and also Assimites > and Assimites Antitribu. Examples of both exist Lucita being a Lasombra > Antitribu and Tariq being a Assimite Antitribu. Is Tariq a V:TES card? I'm not intimately familiar with all the Assamites from Ancient Hearts, but I'll go out on a limb and assume not. In which case it is completely irrelevant (to the card game) that Assamite antitribus exist. To me, a non-RPG'er, it is _completely_ reasonable for me to assume that when some Brujah talks about "those pesky Assamites", he is lumping together the regulars and the antitribus. > The Sabbat > war is hopefully in proofing right now. I think this another fundamental difference in our underlying assumptions. I figure that (since they've already printed Lucita) that the set is beyond changing on more than a superficial level. If I'm wrong, then it is certainly possible that WW can go back and make a (card game) distinction between Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu. I still don't think they should, but that's another issue. James -- James Hamblin ham...@math.wisc.edu "Well, I couldn't see what was to be / So I just stood there laughing." -- Kate Bush

In article <8lt6aj$bn7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com writes >> Lucita is not antitribu. >yes, she is. please refer to This is V:TES, not V:TM. -- James Coupe

In article <8lvf4k$p65$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, Richard D. Zopf <guenh...@mindspring.com> writes >You realize, of course, Norm, that your argument hinges significantly >upon having the wax seal on the old Sabbat VTES set equate to the >compass star of the new anti-tribu clan symbols from V:TM. The displays my local gaming store in have: Crown with Wax Seal -> Lasombra -- James Coupe

On Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:34:23 GMT, guenh...@mindspring.com (Richard D. Zopf) wrote: >You realize, of course, Norm, that your argument hinges significantly >upon having the wax seal on the old Sabbat VTES set equate to the >compass star of the new anti-tribu clan symbols from V:TM. You use >the term waxseal/starburst or waxseal/starcrest, like they were the >same thing. I'm not so certain that's an accurate assessment, since >it goes across two different game platforms. You are right in saying that the wax seal and the compass star aren't the same thing. But Norm is right when he says that the Lasombra sign is just a crown with nothing under it. The wax seal was used to designed Sabbat members in the second edition of V:TM. Now, in the third, they don't identify Sabbat members anymore (they don't use the wax seal anymore). They use the compass star to identify the antitribu (not all the antitribus are sabbat). So the Ravnos's sign is a cross, and the Ravnos antitribu's sign is a cross on a compass star. The same for the Lasombra with the crown and the Lasombra antitribu with the crown on a compass star. But this is true only for the clans with an Antediluvian. If you take the blood lines who belong to the Sabbat (Kiasyd, Blood Brothers, Harbingers of Skulls, Serpents of the Light), or if you take the Pander clan, they have a symbol with a compass star under it, even if they are not antitribu. (you're all confused yet ? : ) SO, if the designers of the Sabbat War expansion would have liked to respect all the new clan symbols from the third edition of V:TM, they should have put a crown with nothing under for the Lasombra, a serpent self-biting-tale (I'm not sure how you say it in english...) with nothing under for the Tzimisce, and all the other clan symbols should have been put on a compass star (all the antitribu and the Pander). I would have like it more that way, but I'm sure -- I hope -- they had some reasons for not respecting it. Rémy Auclair, VEKN prince of Québec, Qc ra...@mediom.qc.ca www.mediom.qc.ca/~rafid/

In article <3983a3f3...@news.mediom.qc.ca>, Rafid Armani <ra...@mediom.qc.ca> writes >SO, if the designers of the Sabbat War expansion would have liked to >respect all the new clan symbols from the third edition of V:TM, they >should have put a crown with nothing under for the Lasombra, The actual displays of the clan pins that I've seen have been set up with Lasombra with a wax seal. -- James Coupe

> You realize, of course, Norm, that your argument hinges significantly > upon having the wax seal on the old Sabbat VTES set equate to the > compass star of the new anti-tribu clan symbols from V:TM. You use > the term waxseal/starburst or waxseal/starcrest, like they were the > same thing. I'm not so certain that's an accurate assessment, since > it goes across two different game platforms. Let me explain how I arrived at the waxseal equating to the starcrest. I applied transverse logic to my symbolic analysis. Transverse logic dictates that if "A" ia "B" and "B" is "C" then "A" must be "C". Mathmatically it works out as: If A=B and B=C then A=C Here are the facts as they lay. 1)The Brujah Symbol with a waxseal is the Brujah Antitribu Symbol 2)The Brujah Symbol with a starburst is the Brujah Antitribu Symbol Mathmatically let A= the Brujah Symbol b= the Wax Seal C= the starburst D= the Brujah Antitribu symbol then the above statement would be 1) A + b = D 2) A + C = D Since both are the Brujah Antitribu symbols they are both equal therefore The Brujah Symbol with a wax seal is the Brujah Symbol with a Starburst Mathmatically that would be A + b = A + C If you now eliminate the like component (the Brujah symbol) from both sides of the equation you arrive at The waxseal is the starcrest b = C If you would like you can apply this arguement to any symbols that translate from V:TM to V:TES with the exception of Lucita's clan symbol. > Mind you, I think it doesn't jive that a vampire independant of > his/her clan should be able to have access to clan resources (Elysian > Fields, Lasombra HG, etc. in Lucita's case) presumably due to their > lack of involvement in clan politics/hierarchy. I agree with that as well. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <2l0OxkAi...@cooling-towers.freeserve.co.uk>, James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In article <8lvf4k$p65$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, Richard D. Zopf > <guenh...@mindspring.com> writes > >You realize, of course, Norm, that your argument hinges significantly > >upon having the wax seal on the old Sabbat VTES set equate to the > >compass star of the new anti-tribu clan symbols from V:TM. > > The displays my local gaming store in have: > > Crown with Wax Seal -> Lasombra Strange, on this side of the pond it is a crown without the waxseal which is the Lasombra symbol. Please refer to message number eight of this thread for the links to the White-Wolf server that display the above mentioned symbols. Why would White Wolf use conficting symbols in separate locations (one being the web and the other being your local store). Is it possible that your local store misshelved the the pins in the improper locations? [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <1FKOZbAY...@cooling-towers.freeserve.co.uk>, [ quoted text not captured ] Correct, My point is that the intellectual material is the same. [ quoted text not captured ]

That is fine James. My point is that they have included the other antitribu clans and their appropriate symbols when they translated it into V:TES. Now they break from that with this Lucita card by including a Lasombra antitribu and a new symbol which conflicts with the published clan symbol. This creates confusion. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8m1e3p$3jq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com writes >Please refer to message number eight of >this thread for the links to the White-Wolf server that display the >above mentioned symbols. I did. This is why I referenced the pins I have seen for sale. -- James Coupe

In article <8m1e7a$3li$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com writes >> This is V:TES, not V:TM. > >Correct, My point is that the intellectual material is the same. Oh, entirely. Shall we stop a 7 cap with inferior Protean playing, say, Body of Sun, because they really need much higher Protean? Shall we introduce a system based on multiple levels of disciplines, where each vampire has to have a specific number in each one? Shall we prevent people doing multiple things in each round, unless they have celerity? V:TES is based on V:tM. It is not, by any means, an entirely carbon copy of the game. -- James Coupe

In article <8m1ehh$3vh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com writes > Now they break from that with this Lucita card by >including a Lasombra antitribu and a new symbol which conflicts with >the published clan symbol. This creates confusion. Thus LSJ has clarified the issue for you, so there shall be less confusion. -- James Coupe

On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 05:10:55 GMT, Rafid Armani wrote: >You are right in saying that the wax seal and the compass star aren't >the same thing. But Norm is right when he says that the Lasombra sign >is just a crown with nothing under it. > >The wax seal was used to designed Sabbat members in the second edition >of V:TM. Now, in the third, they don't identify Sabbat members anymore >(they don't use the wax seal anymore). They use the compass star to >identify the antitribu (not all the antitribus are sabbat). So the >Ravnos's sign is a cross, and the Ravnos antitribu's sign is a cross >on a compass star. The same for the Lasombra with the crown and the >Lasombra antitribu with the crown on a compass star. You seem to have the best understanding of this issue - thanks for the detailed explanation. I would only add that it is clear that the wax seal meant Sabbat rather than Antitribu because, if you look at the seal by itself (on the Sabbat rules sheet, for example), you can see that it is a signet letter S. Having said that, I would agree with Norman that, if Lucita is really Lasombra antitribu, she should be shown as such and that the game should have appropriate symbology to represent this status. It is important for the CCG to be faithful to the RPG. I have just bought a copy of the RPG main book and find that it enhances my understanding of the CCG considerably - I now better understand cards like The Rack and the Traditions. I note, by the way, that Wake with Evening's Freshness is a thaumaturgical ritual and so the RPG implies that this is a Tremere thing. It bothers me that the CCG appears to have got this wrong by making the card free of prerequisites. In a similar way, reviewers have been criticising the Vampire computer game because opposing vampires disintegrate into dust (Buffy-style) rather than going into torpor when defeated. Continuity and consistency are a good thing and deviations from them are bad. Andrew

In article <DA12C8CC2B5CD2E9.AFCF044D...@lp.airnews.net>, a...@csi.com wrote: > I note, by the way, that Wake with Evening's Freshness is a > thaumaturgical ritual and so the RPG implies that this is a Tremere > thing. It bothers me that the CCG appears to have got this wrong by > making the card free of prerequisites. In a similar way, reviewers Gameplay > consistency. -- William Burke, passenge...@hotmail.com This post < should be. Visit my web page! Current essay: Happiness. http://come.to/passenger-pigeon/

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > The displays my local gaming store in have: > > > > Crown with Wax Seal -> Lasombra > > Strange, on this side of the pond it is a crown without the waxseal > which is the Lasombra symbol. > Why would White Wolf use conficting symbols in > separate locations They do not conflict. In the WoD, the Crown symbol is the symbol for Lasombra. The wax seal is the seal of the Sabbat. A Lasombra symbol with a wax seal is a Lasombra symbol on a Sabbat seal. A Lasombra symbol without a sect seal is a Lasombra symbol. In the card game, though, all Lasmobra are marked with a WoD Lasombra symbol (a crown or an ell) on a Sabbat seal. This includes Gratiano as well as Lucita, since both are Lasombra. In the card game, there are no Lasombra antitribu, so there is no need to make a Lasombra-crown-in-an-antitribu-star symbol. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > Let me explain how I arrived at the waxseal equating to the starcrest. > I applied transverse logic to my symbolic analysis. Transverse logic > dictates that if "A" ia "B" and "B" is "C" then "A" must be "C". > Mathmatically it works out as: > If A=B > and B=C > then A=C > > Here are the facts as they lay. > 1)The Brujah Symbol with a waxseal is the Brujah Antitribu Symbol > 2)The Brujah Symbol with a starburst is the Brujah Antitribu Symbol > > Mathmatically let > A= the Brujah Symbol > b= the Wax Seal > C= the starburst > D= the Brujah Antitribu symbol > > then the above statement would be > 1) A + b = D > 2) A + C = D > > Since both are the Brujah Antitribu symbols they are both equal > therefore You have "proved that D = D. The above does not "prove" that b = C, since you have incorrectly assumed that the was seal and the star are "additive" in the same way. They are not. Try this: Sabbat are positive. Camarilla are negative. "Brujah" (A) is assigned the value -1 (clan 1, Camarilla). The star symbol represents multiplication by -1. The Wax Seal represents taking the absolute value. Brujah Antitribu (D) is assigned the value 1 (clan 1, Sabbat). Now: Star(A) = 1 And: Seal(A) = 1 This, by your logic above, leads to the conclusion that Star() and Seal() are identical mappings (functions). Bu now examine the clan Lasombra, L. L is assigned the value 2 (clan 2, Sabbat). Lasombra Antitribu (if it existsed) would be assigned the value -2 (clan 2, Camarilla). Star(L) = -2, but Seal(L) = 2. So Seal() is not equivalent to Star() > > Mind you, I think it doesn't jive that a vampire independant of > > his/her clan should be able to have access to clan resources > > (Elysian > > Fields, Lasombra HG, etc. in Lucita's case) presumably due to their > > lack of involvement in clan politics/hierarchy. > > I agree with that as well. "Independent" is not something that applies to clan here - Lucita is "independent" of the two sects, not of the Lasombra clan (at least, in the card game). This has been established long ago when handling the effects of Writ of Acceptance. The precedent established there applies without modification (no "special cases") to Lucita, to avoid confusion. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > Lucita is not antitribu. > yes, she is. please refer to > [some non-VTES source] Again: Lucita, the promo card for V:TES, a property owned by White Wolf, does not represent a Lasombra Antitribu vampire. The card represents a unique Lasombra vampire, at least according to all official sources. > > There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game. > > There wasn't until they printed Lucita. All official sources say that there is still no Lasombra Antitribu in the V:TES property owned by White Wolf. > My problem with your ruling It is not a "ruling", since there is no ambiguity to resolve. Lucita is printed with the Lasombra symbol, therefore the card represents a unique vampire of Clan Lasombra. > is that White Wolf is trying to make it as easy for players to > transition from the card game to the roleplaying game and vice-versa. > You do not do that by reversing which clan has which symbol. The They are not reversed - Lasombra use the Crown (on a Sabbat Seal) symbol, not the Crown-in-star symbol that the Lasombra Antitribu of the RPG use. By trying to equate the Sabbat Seal with the Antitribu Star, one produces a contradiction / reversal. The remedy for this is to stop equating the two, since they are not equal. > Lasombra are one of the clans that is the backbone of the Sabbat. The > Tzimice are the other. They are not antitribu clans and therefore do > not have the wax seal behind the symbol, which IMHO is the reason they They are Sabbat, and therefore may use the Sabbat Seal under their symbol (in the WoD). In the card game, they *always* use the wax seal, since that is part of their clan symbol in the V:TES property. > are changing symbols. The change in symbols also allows them do > designate antitribu status by placing a starburst/waxseal behind the > clan symbol. There are several Lasombra antitribu mentioned in the Lasombra Antitribu (in the WoD) use the star antitribu symbol. They do not use the Sabbat Wax seal, since they are not Sabbat. > roleplaying game and Lucita is one of them. She is also designated > antitribu. Lucita is not antitribu in the V:TES property. > > The wax seal as part of a clan symbol "should translate" to the > > clan's membership in the Sabbat, in my opinion. Your mileage > > may vary. Reglardless of that opinion, however, Lucita remains a > > Lasombra (and can play cards that require Lasombra). > > This is a seemingly self-contradictory statement. Lucita has a > waxseal behind her clan symbol and independent in the bottom > left-hand corner. I always thought that the little word Sabbat in > the bottom left-hand corner designated Sabbat. See my previous post in this thread regarding Lucita's use of the Lasombra symbol. http://www.deja.com/threadmsg_md.xp?AN=650505943 [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <DA12C8CC2B5CD2E9.AFCF044D...@lp.airnews.net>, a...@csi.com wrote: > On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 05:10:55 GMT, Rafid Armani wrote: > [snip] > I note, by the way, that Wake with Evening's Freshness is a > thaumaturgical ritual and so the RPG implies that this is a Tremere > thing. Woooooooah. That's it! the Mother Lode!! Revert the errata and make it Tremere only. It's the only way to make these bad boys playable. Wow. You could have a Tremere wake/block/get-your-arms-ripped-off/go to torpor before round 2/chantry style deck. Technology of the highest order. Or wait, wait you could have a high point Tremere play-multiple-shotgun-rituals-then-read-what-S:CE-does deck. Hell's teeth this is amazing. Or how about the infamous 30 Weather conrol, 30 wwef deck! Oh my word!! The deck that totally destroys your prey then folds up and dies like a wet origami frog. The way forward for sure. /shakes head. Chantry. You can almost hear the designers talking: "Well, these Warlocks keep getting smeared across the floor. Should we make them better in combat?" "No. I have a better idea..." Heavens to Murgatroid. Even a full power Wake wouldn't make me want to play these guys in a tournament. Still, I can always pin my hope on Sabbat war to give me all those neat !Tremere cards to make my shoe box of pentagram covered wallpaper playable again. Oh, hang on.... matt. [ quoted text not captured ]

Please note that I am not trying to stir up a hornets nest here. I'm just pointing out a inconsistency in the argument. LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Lasombra Antitribu (in the WoD) use the star antitribu symbol. > They do not use the Sabbat Wax seal, since they are not Sabbat. The problem in using this argument is that, IIRC Lucita has the wax "Sabbat seal" behind the crown, but also has card text stating that she is Independent, not Sabbat. Unfortunately, once someone seizes on this, your argument will be more difficult to defend. In this case, it might just be better to just tell X_Zealot that he's wrong and to quit making a pest of himself. Or if you'd rather be more diplomatic, just say that the wax seal is part of the clan symbol and holds no other significance. Note that it is also part of the clan symbols for the antitribu clans for consistency. If at some (very distant) future point, Lasombra Antitribu cards are printed, the symbol will be sufficiently different so as not to cause confusion. Regards, Noal -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <DA12C8CC2B5CD2E9.AFCF044D...@lp.airnew s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes >It is >important for the CCG to be faithful to the RPG. I tend to find it more useful for a CCG to be playable than just an RPG on cards. >I note, by the way, that Wake with Evening's Freshness is a >thaumaturgical ritual and so the RPG implies that this is a Tremere >thing. It would imply that it is a thaumaturgical thing. Thaumaturgy is, of course, an important thing to the Tremere, but it is far from exclusive to them. -- James Coupe

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > Mathmatically that would be > A + b = A + C > > If you now eliminate the like component (the Brujah symbol) from both > sides of the equation you arrive at > > The waxseal is the starcrest > b = C You're assuming that you can "subtract" components from these symbols with any sort of meaning. As a mathematician-in-training, I of course object. In many mathematical systems, you can add, but you can't subtract or even "cancel" as you did above. Your analogy is seriously flawed. James -- James Hamblin ham...@math.wisc.edu "Let's split him open / like a pomegranate Insides out / all is revealed" -- Kate Bush

On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:41:24 GMT, Passenger Pigeon wrote: >> I note, by the way, that Wake with Evening's Freshness is a >> thaumaturgical ritual and so the RPG implies that this is a Tremere >> thing. It bothers me that the CCG appears to have got this wrong by >> making the card free of prerequisites. >Gameplay > consistency. It appears that we got neither. Maybe if Wake had required Thaumaturgy and/or Tremere as a prerequisite, it would not have required such severe errata. Win-win. Andrew

On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:52:34 +0100, James Coupe wrote: >It would imply that it is a thaumaturgical thing. Thaumaturgy is, of >course, an important thing to the Tremere, but it is far from exclusive >to them. Mayhap. But the RPG talks only of Tremere, e.g. "This ritual allows a Tremere to awaken at any sign of danger..." Andrew

On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:25:19 +0100, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Then what do you do with Misdirection, or any of the other "tap a vampire" cards? If you aren't Tremere, don't have Animalism, or can't cough up 2nd Tradition, you're screwed and defenseless. The mechanisms of many, many cards were clearly designed with the potential of "untap while tapped" in mind. It's useful to note that the Sabbat expansion could have simply reprinted Wake, as it did with many other common cards - but chose to remove the reference to the Tremere ritual as well as to alter the functionality. I can't help but suspect that the namechange itself stemmed from complaints just as the one above - that the RPG translation was oopsed. -- Derek Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta

Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: > Continuity and consistency are a good thing and >deviations from them are bad. This is fine, so long as you don't take it as dogma. Dealing with torpor in VTM Redemption isn't a complication that game needs to be playable (although it might be neat if a torporized vamp were to come back an get you later :-) That would make for some programming difficulties, though, I'm sure). Including a harmless (non-copyrighted) special effect like a vamp turning to dust (upon being "dusted", heh) is fine, especially if a little crossover appeal sells more copies of the game... (More Redemption sold means more R&D money for V:TES... :-) What I'm really saying is that I hear a lot from people who want the computer game and the CCG to look, feel and act exactly like the tabletop RPG. Not only would this make the PCG and CCG tedious and boring, it would absolutely kill any crossover appeal of the games, and would likely put WW out of business with overburgeoning R&D that ultimately sells only slightly different product to the same limited pool of buyers (the original RPG fans). Odds are, this is part of the reason that the looser the WoD rules ties, like with Redemption and VTES, the better the end product (anyone up for a game of Rage? Except _you_ Legbiter...;-) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:42:40 -0400, Derek Ray wrote: >Then what do you do with Misdirection, or any of the other "tap a >vampire" cards? If you aren't Tremere, don't have Animalism, or can't >cough up 2nd Tradition, you're screwed and defenseless. The >mechanisms of many, many cards were clearly designed with the >potential of "untap while tapped" in mind. Wake was clearly not designed to be used with with Misdirection, or any of the other "tap a vampire" cards. Wake clearly supposes that the vampire will enter combat, not use some cheesy trick. Andrew

In article <96DF545562078085.5D116005...@lp.airnew s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes >Mayhap. But the RPG talks only of Tremere, e.g. "This ritual allows a >Tremere to awaken at any sign of danger..." In some cases. If you read 3rd edition, the Tremere are often referred to - since in many instances it was the Tremere who created the rituals, as the foremost thaumaturges - but it should also be noted that it doesn't exclude other vampires from learning them, even in the cases where it does not that For instance: 2nd AND 3rd Edition - "At the first level of Thaumaturgy, the vampire automatically gains a single Level One ritual." 2nd Edition on Wake: "This half hour ritual must be performed immediately before a vampire prepares to sleep through the coming day..... The ritual allows the protected Kindred to immediately awaken at any sign of danger during the next day." It makes no mention of the Tremere in 2nd edition. Similarly, if you read 3rd edition "Deflection of Wooden Doom": "This ritual protects the Tremere.... A stake merely held near the Tremere.... The thaumaturge must.... the vampire places" It certainly seems that the terms Tremere, thaumaturge and vampire are used somewhat loosely to represent the term "minion with this ritual" (using the V:TES term minion, since some humans can learn some thaumaturgy. Whilst Wake itself wouldn't be so great - though it might make a good burglar alarm - others would be.) All I would infer from such - as per Deflection of Wooden Doom - is that it simply didn't occur to White Wolf as the editing was done, since it just read off the page as they understood it. Also, they are quite quick to point out changes from 2nd to 3rd, in order to provide some form of mysterious (or less mysterious) back change - e.g. the fact that rituals can fail in 3rd edition, the spread of Dementation amongst the Malkavians. Were it to have been an intended change from 2nd, a line along the lines of "The powers of this ritual have been weakening for the past several hundred years but, now, a critical point has been reached and only the more expert use of the Tremere is sufficient to utilise this ritual. Some suspect that this is another sign of the impending Gehenna, as vampires will lose their defences to the Antediluvians." Also, the literal reading you take would prevent the Tremere Antitribu from utilising the ritual. And if we are to take the idea of an RPG on cards, the card would actually read something like this: "This card must be played as you end your minion phase, with a tapped vampire. You may burn this card during any minion's action. When you burn this card, roll a 10 sided die. If you roll a 1, this card is simply burned, otherwise you may attempt to block as if untapped." Another point to note is that it is significant that the Wake implementation in V:TES is counter to that of the implementation in V:tM. Wake, in V:TES, protects you during the day and your slumber. However, a vampire (under normal circumstances) will only be acting at night. Since this is the case, the Wake ritual would be relatively useless, since the vampire being used to block would already be awake. We would have to add a line of something like "This card may only be used during the actions of allies, or when a Daring the Dawn, Day Operation or Dawn Operation are used to modify the action." This is why the RPG is only used as a model and why it is not important for the TCG to be "faithful" to the RPG, in the same way that, in some instances, the RPG is not faithful to the mythology surrounding vampires. The idea is to make a playable game. Sometimes kludges have to be made. -- James Coupe

In article <33A19E0CD41CA645.A68A1913...@lp.airnew s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes >It appears that we got neither. Maybe if Wake had required >Thaumaturgy and/or Tremere as a prerequisite, it would not have >required such severe errata. Win-win. But if it is important for a card game to be faithful to its parent RPG, why are you selectively choosing to only make it require Thaumaturgy, when there are other conditions, as per my other post? All you do is add one requirement, and hardly make it a faithful representation. -- James Coupe

> Wake clearly supposes that > the vampire will enter combat, not use some cheesy trick. > > Andrew "This reacting vampire can use reaction cards..." There you go talking out your ass again, Andrew. The card was designed so that a tapped vampire could play reaction cards and/or block. Seems to me that the wording intended for the vampire to be able to use a "cheesy trick"...unless the trick you're referring to is the hand cycling one. (If that's the case, ignore me.) [ quoted text not captured ]

Andrew S. Davidson wrote in message ... >On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:42:40 -0400, Derek Ray wrote: > >>Then what do you do with Misdirection, or any of the other "tap a >>vampire" cards? If you aren't Tremere, don't have Animalism, or can't >>cough up 2nd Tradition, you're screwed and defenseless. The >>mechanisms of many, many cards were clearly designed with the >>potential of "untap while tapped" in mind. > >Wake was clearly not designed to be used with with Misdirection, or >any of the other "tap a vampire" cards. Wake clearly supposes that >the vampire will enter combat, not use some cheesy trick. > Ermm. he's referring to Misdirection, the master card, not Telepathic Misdirection, the auspex reaction... The master card has an overwhelming effect, especially if you cannot untap. Thus, Derek was pointing out the balance problem with Misdirect in the event that Wake were to be a thaum and/or Tremere card... Regards, R. David Zopf [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 01 Aug 2000 08:50:44 +0100, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: >On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:42:40 -0400, Derek Ray wrote: > >>Then what do you do with Misdirection, or any of the other "tap a >>vampire" cards? If you aren't Tremere, don't have Animalism, or can't >>cough up 2nd Tradition, you're screwed and defenseless. The >>mechanisms of many, many cards were clearly designed with the >>potential of "untap while tapped" in mind. > >Wake was clearly not designed to be used with with Misdirection, or >any of the other "tap a vampire" cards. Wake clearly supposes that >the vampire will enter combat, not use some cheesy trick. Erm, I think you missed it a bit. Wake is one of the sole defenses against the "tap a vampire" cards - what do you do about all of them? Clearly, SOMETHING had to be made available to all vampires. However, I beg to differ - Wake/(non-combat reaction) is a valuable part of the game, and I'm certain the potential for such was designed in (judging from the number of non-intercept reaction cards in Jyhad). The "replace after combat" appears to have been an afterthought added to match the template of cards like Arson, which also results in no combat if you play stealth modifiers on top of it. They just missed the wake-and-watch scenario. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8m6i9r$o9v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > > > Wake clearly supposes that > > the vampire will enter combat, not use some cheesy trick. > > > > Andrew > > "This reacting vampire can use reaction cards..." > > There you go talking out your ass again, Andrew. Very appropriate as dinosaur farts are in the news again. (Young China Daily reporting some dubious Frenchman's theory of extinction). Tom [ quoted text not captured ]

"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > > On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:41:24 GMT, Passenger Pigeon wrote: > > >Gameplay > consistency. > > It appears that we got neither. Maybe if Wake had required > Thaumaturgy and/or Tremere as a prerequisite, it would not have > required such severe errata. Win-win. Unfortunately, untap effects are instrumental to the balance of the game. If only the Tremere or vampires with Animalism could untap (out of turn), then card like Misdirection would be way too powerful, and so the cycle of imbalance would continue. Making Wake undisciplined was a decision based on the need for there to be untap effects generally available. If this creates an inconsistency with the RPG, too bad. I'd rather have a _good_ game than an _accurate_ game. James -- James Hamblin ham...@math.wisc.edu "You can protect yourself / I'll show you how with fire." -- Kate Bush

In article <3983a3f3...@news.mediom.qc.ca>, ra...@mediom.qc.ca (Rafid Armani) wrote: [snip] > > The wax seal was used to designed Sabbat members in the second edition > of V:TM. Now, in the third, they don't identify Sabbat members anymore > (they don't use the wax seal anymore). They use the compass star to > identify the antitribu (not all the antitribus are sabbat). So the > Ravnos's sign is a cross, and the Ravnos antitribu's sign is a cross > on a compass star. The same for the Lasombra with the crown and the > Lasombra antitribu with the crown on a compass star. [snip] This is going to get really confusing when one of the Independent clans joins the Camarilla (soon). -- Best regards, Merlisk V:EKN Prince of Dallas http://merlisk.tripod.com/jyhad/jyhad.html [ quoted text not captured ]

James Hamblin <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote: > Making Wake undisciplined was a decision based on the need for > there to be untap effects generally available. If this creates > an inconsistency with the RPG, too bad. I'd rather have a _good_ > game than an _accurate_ game. Preach it, brother. Time and again, there is a desire by new players to make VTES into VTM. They are _not_ the same game. While they are both based on the WoD, VTES and VTM are entirely different products and (until recently) produced by two very different companies. If you want to play a RPG or a LARP, put the cards down and go get your dice and costumes. Errata should not and (hopefully) never will be based on the RPG or LARP. There are enough valid considerations without adding an entirely subjective one. Regards, Noal McDoanld -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

Merlisk <mer...@my-deja.com> wrote: > This is going to get really confusing when one of the Independent > clans joins the Camarilla (soon). There are already political action cards in print that can handle this plot twist. Inivitation Accepted and Ravnos Acceptance are two cards I already find myself playing from time to time. Regards, Noal McDonald [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <AF41AC245A23A02E.B02EEFDF...@lp.airnew s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes >Wake was clearly not designed to be used with with Misdirection, or >any of the other "tap a vampire" cards. It was clearly designed to allow a tapped vampire to react as though untapped. Since Misdirection is the very obvious way to tap vampires (along with Anarch Troublemaker), it seems likely that the interaction was considered strongly. > Wake clearly supposes that >the vampire will enter combat, not use some cheesy trick. You have asserted this before. Arson does not suppose that the vampire will enter combat, even though it says "Do not replace until after combat". Are you seriously saying that no-one thought of waking and bouncing a bleed? -- James Coupe

In article <3986ED0A...@math.wisc.edu>, James Hamblin <ham...@math.wisc.edu> writes >If only the Tremere or vampires with Animalism could untap (out >of turn), then card like Misdirection would be way too powerful, and so >the cycle of imbalance would continue. Princes/Justicars, Homunculi/Carrion Coffin, Masika. Only 2nd Tradition matches the Wake functionality though. And both of the other options would be hosed by Misdirection/Anarch Troublemaker. -- James Coupe

In article <8m70ea$3u1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dharzhak@my- deja.com> writes > Merlisk <mer...@my-deja.com> wrote: >> This is going to get really confusing when one of the Independent >> clans joins the Camarilla (soon). > >There are already political action cards in print that can handle this >plot twist. Inivitation Accepted and Ravnos Acceptance are two cards I >already find myself playing from time to time. And one very easy way would be a vampire, like Dan Murdoch, who advocated the change to be created, who could go through your library to pull it. "Blah Blah-Blah, Camarilla Sympathiser. Clan. Capacity. Disciplines. Camarilla. You may take a +1 stealth action to go through your library to retrieve a <join Camarilla vote> vote." -- James Coupe

On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:41:06 GMT, Richard D. Zopf wrote: >it would absolutely kill any crossover appeal of the games There are two sorts of cross-over. You're talking about getting computer gamers to try WoD by offering them the sort of dumb, hack'n'slash that they're used to. Most reviewers seem to have panned this as a stupid bait-and-switch tactic. Anyway, I'm more concerned with the cross-over between supposedly complementary WoD media types. I was eyeing the WoD merchandise in my games shop the other day. Eventually I bought a copy of the VtM RPG (and two boxes of VTES cards). I was tempted to buy one of the novels but didn't have a reason to buy a particular one. I'm mildly interested in the Lucita one now but am not encouraged by LSJ's bizarre insistence that the CCG Lucita is a different character - any resemblance is purely coincidental. Such repudiation of the common background will not help the sales of WW products in general. I am still curious to know more about many of the vampires in this game, e.g. Queen Anne, Prince of London. The cards tell you little. What is a good source for this information? Are the Players' Guide(s) for this game worth getting? Andrew

On Tue, 1 Aug 2000 08:34:54 -0700, R. David Zopf wrote: >Ermm. he's referring to Misdirection, the master card, not Telepathic >Misdirection, the auspex reaction... The master card has an overwhelming >effect, especially if you cannot untap. Thus, Derek was pointing out the >balance problem with Misdirect in the event that Wake were to be a thaum >and/or Tremere card... I see what you mean now. Misdirection is certainly a strong card - X cards tend to be broken in any CCG. But Wake isn't a particularly good counter to this card - you'd need several Wakes to counter the effect of one Misdirection. Sudden Reversal looks a better choice in this case. Andrew

> I am still curious to know more about many of the vampires in this > game, e.g. Queen Anne, Prince of London. The cards tell you little. > What is a good source for this information? Are the Players' Guide(s) > for this game worth getting? There's no easy answer. 'Children of the Night' is a collection of vampires, including some VtES minions' equivalents (Lambach, Lucita -- I believe...) You might want to check out 'Children of the Inquisition', which is more of the same, but is out of print and freely downloadable (http://www.white-wolf.com/Download/Pages/Books2.html). The Sect Guides and the Storyteller Guide don't have any vampires IIRC. If someone's interested I could look up which minions have a VtM equivalent. Tadeusz -- [ Clanbooklet : Tzimisce ] [ http://netgarbage.com/users/enoch ]

Tadeusz <tadeusz.no....@webmails.com> wrote in message news:3987543A...@webmails.com... [ quoted text not captured ] The best source for _feel_, though, is probably the novels. I believe that some of the older ones were even direct V:tES tie-ins, rather than V:tM (wasn't that where Dan Murdoch came from originally?). There's a wonderful scene in Clan Novel: Assamite involving Al-Ashrad (although seemingly a somewhat different Al-Ashrad than the V:tES one), and Thetmes also makes an appearance therein. Other V:tES vampires I can remember having appeared in RPG material: Gratiano, Kementiri, Lambach, Queen Anne, Etrius. Mark Shanewood V:EKN Prince of Minneapolis www.qai.net/ShaneWood/coyote.htm

In article <8ED466D80BAE6968.281F9B12...@lp.airnew s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes >I see what you mean now. Misdirection is certainly a strong card - X >cards tend to be broken in any CCG. But Wake isn't a particularly >good counter to this card - you'd need several Wakes to counter the >effect of one Misdirection. Yes. And? All the evidence, amassed over a number of years of playing, suggests that Wake is a perfectly viable defence. How many games and tournaments are you citing to support your position? -- James Coupe

> > Mayhap. But the RPG talks only of Tremere, e.g. "This ritual allows a > Tremere to awaken at any sign of danger..." > <Ahem> as far as i know the only RPG in V:tES: RPG Launcher (Jyhad, V:TES) 2 pool -- Equipment Weapon. 6R <damage> each strike; only usable after the first round of combat; only usable at long range. </Ahem> Yes it isn't always consistent, but in V:tM you are a charactor doing your own thing (as far as i can tell) in this you are controling your V:tM esque charactor. Look, in the WoD at least 3 groups control the financial markets, the Giovanni, Pentex, and those annoying mages who i cant remember. It depends on what facet of the game you are currently playing. I would submit that jumping from one format to another allows for an even greater bending of 'reality', especially to make both formats playable. Cameron Oh, and in the book of Wyrm, no vampire in on the Pentex board of directors, so already we aren't consistent... Enzo Giovanni. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8licim$atn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: <snip> > > I believe you are mistaken as to which clan the crown on a blood splotch > belongs to. It belongs to Lasombra Antitrubu, who split with the clan > when the antedelluvian was diablerised. So, she could no more play i bet, when you get the new rulebook for THIS game, (not a different game set vaguley in the same world...say, VTM for example) the the lasombra symbol will be a crown in a red blood spot, and will be equivalent to a "L" in a red blood spot. also, i suspect you will find that there is no such thing as clan Lasombra antitribu. which i feel points to the fact that Lucita, the VTES promo card, is a Lasombra vampire. to what sect does she belong? lets look in the box at the bottom of her card. oh, i see, she is independant. So if a card requires a Lasombra, she can play it. if a card requires a Sabbat vampire, she may not. is that hard? no. do we need to try and force her to be exactly the same as VTM? No. if we did, why are we doing it to her and not every single other thing about the game? what makes one card so important that we have to break every current game rule to make her the same as VTM? if we do give her a new clan, Las anti, we should also give her all the diciplines she posessed in VTM. and she should have a "capacity" of like 20, as i think that's something like how much blood she can hold in VTM. and she shouldn't need to spend blood to get a Palatial estate, as buying property wouldn't cause blood to leak from her veins. but she should have to pay for a superior nimble feat, as getting multiple actions with celerity costs blood. but then, because she has celerity, and it would have a dot rating instead of being in a box or diamond (because we are making her the same as VTM, remember?) then she should just be able to burn one blood to get that many extra ...extra what? actions or strikes? how does it equate in VTES? it's kind of tricky...but oh, wait THEY ARE DIFFERENT GAMES. dang. it'll be next to impossible to make her exactly the same as in VTM. so why were we trying? that's right, because her symbol looks a bit like some symbol from some other game, only different (blood splot instead of compass star). so, it's not even the same symbol as the symbol for the clan to which we were trying to insist she was a part of, even though that clan doesn't exist in VTES. > against card text. The symbols are different for the Lasombra "L" and > the Lasombra Antitribu crown/bloodsplotch. Which by the definition of > the rules the cards which require a clan must have a ready vampire of > the same clan as the clan symbol in the left hand boarder. Her clan > symbol does not even match the "L" in the left-hand boarder. So from a > gameplay point of view it makes no sense for her to be able to play > Lasombra cards. ummm....when sabbat war is printed, and all the lasombra have crown-on-splot symbols, they will be able to play cards that have L-on-splot symbols. i personally guarantee it, and if they can't, feel free to ring poke me in the eye with a pointy object. -- _*__salem (Mr. Cranky-Pants after reading this whole thread.) _*__http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/5848/ ***__salem_...@my-dejanews.com _*__and the rains came hammering down [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8m7t2p$q9e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, inr...@my-deja.com writes >Yes it isn't always consistent, but in V:tM you are a charactor doing >your own thing (as far as i can tell) Your story teller isn't insidious enough. ;) -- James Coupe

"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > > I'm mildly interested in the Lucita > one now but am not encouraged by LSJ's bizarre insistence that the CCG > Lucita is a different character - any resemblance is purely > coincidental. Such repudiation of the common background will not help > the sales of WW products in general. Look, do you understand that the card game CANNOT be a perfect representation on the role-playing game? Hence, Lucita (the card) is an imperfect representation of Lucita (the RPG character). If people have problems with this, one easy explanation is to tell them that the Lucita's simply represent different people. The card Lucita is a Lasombra (not a Lasombra antitribu) because Lasombra antitribu do not exist in the card game. James -- James Hamblin ham...@math.wisc.edu "Oh, and think before you speak, my darling" -- Everything But The Girl

"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > I'm mildly interested in the Lucita > one now but am not encouraged by LSJ's bizarre insistence that the CCG > Lucita is a different character - any resemblance is purely > coincidental. Such repudiation of the common background will not help > the sales of WW products in general. I have never said, much less insisted, that Lucita's CCG stats' resemblance to RPG/WoD stats is purely coincidental. The opposite is true. Her CCG stats are obviously based on her WoD stats. What her stats were/are/become in any format other than the CCG are not of consequence when determining how to read her CCG stats, however, now that they have been set. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

In article <Oh7AAnBV...@obeah.demon.co.uk>, [ quoted text not captured ] as far as i can tell<----, that was ment ironically. Yes, i know the GM knows all and sees all, but there is some element of free will, no? In any case that was just to point out that the games are DIFFERENT. that is all, Cameron [ quoted text not captured ]

e. > > Her CCG stats are obviously based on her WoD stats. > yeah, but i recall that if you took her WoD stats she comes out as like a 13 capacity vampire, a bit big for the Card game. James seems to be saying that whoever Lucita is in the Card game, her situation will 'ultimatly' be based on the card game, not V:tM. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > I am still curious to know more about many of the vampires in this > game, e.g. Queen Anne, Prince of London. The cards tell you little. > What is a good source for this information? Are the Players' Guide(s) > for this game worth getting? The Kindred's Most Wanted has a good selection of Vampires that are either refered to or are directly printed in V:TES. Namely they are Dylan, Kemitiri, and Endiku. Check it out. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8lkc1u$ohn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > Actually, the wax seal should be used for her as she is > > antitribu, but the rest of the Lasombra should not have the wax > > Lucita is not antitribu. > There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game. > She is Lasombra, and she is Independent (Non-Sabbat, Non-Camarilla). Just for canon, any Lasombra not in the Sabbat should be considered antitribu in game terms, Camarilla or independent should make no difference. Regards Emiliano, Prince of Rome > > > seal/compass star. Following the example the "L" on a bloodseal > > should translate as a crown without the blood seal. The compass > > star that denotes antitribu status on all antitribu clans should > > translate as a bloodseal in V:TES. > > Alright - you have apparently more background on this than I. > > But, to avoid confusing the reader who is interested in the > ramifications for this game: > > The wax seal in this game is part of the clan symbol, and is > part of the clan symbols for all clans that are part of the > Sabbat - including Pander, Lasombra, and Tzimisce (which are > not antitribu). > > The wax seal as part of a clan symbol "should translate" to the > clan's membership in the Sabbat, in my opinion. Your mileage > may vary. Reglardless of that opinion, however, Lucita remains a > Lasombra (and can play cards that require Lasombra). > > -- > LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. > Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ > [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 01:21:32 GMT, inr...@my-deja.com wrote: >Look, in the WoD at least 3 groups control the financial markets, the >Giovanni, Pentex, and those annoying mages who i cant remember. It >depends on what facet of the game you are currently playing. Judging from the latest VtM rulebook, the backstory is advancing - the Camarilla is in decline, the Kindred of the East are pushing the Anarchs out of California, the NSA is getting wise to the Kindred, and so on. No doubt control of the markets is fiercely contested and changes hands from time to time. In other CCG, like Doomtown, the game changes in parallel with such developments - the fear level goes up and down, outfits appear and disappear, dudes die or rise from the dead. The storyline concept is a strong one and VTES would do well to copy it. Andrew

On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:54:38 -0500, James Hamblin wrote: >Look, do you understand that the card game CANNOT be a perfect >representation on the role-playing game? Hence, Lucita (the card) is an >imperfect representation of Lucita (the RPG character). If people have >problems with this, one easy explanation is to tell them that the >Lucita's simply represent different people. I don't know much about WoD but I know better than that. Lucita is clearly a VIP in WoD - I notice that she keeps appearing in the cut scenes in the RPG rulebook. >The card Lucita is a Lasombra (not a Lasombra antitribu) because >Lasombra antitribu do not exist in the card game. Lasombra antitribu certainly exist in WoD. It would have been cool if she had been the harbinger of this clan for the CCG. Andrew

tetragr...@my-deja.com wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > > Actually, the wax seal should be used for her as she is > > > antitribu, but the rest of the Lasombra should not have the wax > > > > Lucita is not antitribu. > > There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game. > > She is Lasombra, and she is Independent (Non-Sabbat, Non-Camarilla). > > Just for canon, any Lasombra not in the Sabbat should be considered > antitribu in game terms, > Camarilla or independent should make no difference. In the RPG, right. In the CCG, however, "X antitribu" denotes a distinct clan (with no ties to the "base" clan X). A vampire in the CCG cannot change his antitribu status just by changing sect (unlike the RPG). Making Lucita a member of the "Lasombra antitribu" clan in the CCG (a new clan in the CCG - one that has no supporting cards like Hunting Grounds in the CCG and one that is not subject to any clan hosers like Detection in the CCG) would accomplish nothing over the offial Lucita (Independent Lasombra), except to restrict her interaction with the rest of the game. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

> In other CCG, like Doomtown, the game changes in parallel with such > developments - the fear level goes up and down, outfits appear and > disappear, dudes die or rise from the dead. The storyline concept is > a strong one and VTES would do well to copy it. First "do well to copy it" except that then we'd have two games like Doomtown, not Doomtown and Vampire. Ok, so you meant copy the adhearance to 'a' storyline, i know. But honestly, that is why magic is such a CF/crack habit. If the story line makes the Camarilla impossiable to play (because they're dead) what good are all my Camarilla vampires, in 'game' terms. Further, as the 'fear level' rises and falls you get under and over powered expansions. Again, like M:tCH and again bad (Fallen Empires anyone?) Ultimately (IMHO), the story line is great, as long as it doesn't get in the way of playability. I was a V:tM before V:tES, and i still play it. But, there is no point to making one just like the other. Someone has already said, if V:tES is just like a RPG, only RPGer's will play. That isn't economical, and is really just silly nitpickyness on the part of those of us who have trouble accepting that the WoD is not a card game, and shouldn't be expected to transfer over 'as an exact match'. my $.02 Cameron [ quoted text not captured ]

Andrew S. Davidson wrote in message <963DFE1C2426A359.1A8F7E75...@lp.airnews.net>... >On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:41:06 GMT, Richard D. Zopf wrote: > >>it would absolutely kill any crossover appeal of the games > >There are two sorts of cross-over. You're talking about getting >computer gamers to try WoD by offering them the sort of dumb, >hack'n'slash that they're used to. Most reviewers seem to have panned >this as a stupid bait-and-switch tactic. Anyway, I'm more concerned >with the cross-over between supposedly complementary WoD media types. > I understand you concern... My concern is that by pandering solely to people looking for lock-step cross-over, the appeal of the game will be restricted... and by extension the potential market for it reduced. With a CCG, this is much more likely to kill the game dead. >I was eyeing the WoD merchandise in my games shop the other day. >Eventually I bought a copy of the VtM RPG (and two boxes of VTES >cards). I was tempted to buy one of the novels but didn't have a >reason to buy a particular one. I'm mildly interested in the Lucita >one now but am not encouraged by LSJ's bizarre insistence that the CCG >Lucita is a different character - any resemblance is purely >coincidental. Such repudiation of the common background will not help >the sales of WW products in general. > The RPG, as I understand it, labels Lasombra vampires that have crossed over to the Camarilla as antitribu (correct me if this is inaccurate). From reading the Clan Novel, Lucita is in no way portrayed as having anything to do with _either_ political sect. Since such a clanless vampire woudl be Caitiff or some such other, the RPG stats show her as Lasombra Antitribu. In truth, she doesn't truly have the Camarilla ties to be called antitribu, but that's the best (most accurate) label the tabletop has to offer. In VTES, she can be a Lasombra vampire without ties to a political sect. This results in a more accurate representation of the fictional character from the novel than what the RPG boys came up with... Regards, R. David Zopf Atom Weaver V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC

> This > results in a more accurate representation of the fictional character from > the novel than what the RPG boys came up with... Small nit-picking if you don't mind: Lucita is a RPG figure who appears heavily often in VtM and VtDA material, and who was recently cast in CN:Lasombra. Some writers of the novels are part of the WWGS team, and CN:Giovanni was even written by the Vampire:tM developer. Tadeusz

Tadeusz <"tadeusz.no spam.please"@webmails.com> > wrote in message <398B08D3...@webmails.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] This goes further towards supporting my point. If you start from the RPG instead of the Clan Novel, you're bound to arrive at different conclusions about the CCG's accruacy in representing Lucita... The only real answer is that the VTES Lucita is 100% accurate in representing her in VTES ;-) But would you not agree that any vampire put into a similar role in another novel would be most accurately portrayed as "Independent" rather than "Camarilla" or "Sabbat"? The CCG describes Lucita's fictional character more accurately than the RPG version... So what? It's all still the WoD. You call Lucita (above) an RPG figure cast in CN:Lasombra. Lucita is more accurately the intellectual property of White Wolf (copyrighted, all rights reserved, etc.), and they can do with it as they see fit. The RPG stats are just her first incarnation as intellectual property. To cling to those RPG details for every media used or game printed would be folly (and _booooring_ ;-) [ quoted text not captured ]

R. David Zopf wrote: > > This goes further towards supporting my point. If you start from the RPG > instead of the Clan Novel, you're bound to arrive at different conclusions > about the CCG's accruacy in representing Lucita... The only real answer is > that the VTES Lucita is 100% accurate in representing her in VTES ;-) But I wasn't going against your point. It's fairly obvious to me that VtM/VtES compatibility is no priority (dump the Ravnos and !Tremere? gimme a break). I think it is very sad that François Villon has Chimerstry, just because his VtM stats did. But I feel somewhat different when it comes to Clan or Sect affiliation. If Keminitiri had been Ventrue Justicar, it would have been laughable for those who know her VtM persona (She actually impersonated the Ventrue Justicar for years). Thus, I think that Lucita wasn't the best choice, since her ambiguous loylties (Clan/Sect-wise) don't fit in well with the established Clan/Sect mechanismof VtES. Oh, and I hate Lucita anyway :) Overmarketting a sexy bitch does wear thin after a while. > would you not agree that any vampire put into a similar role in another > novel would be most accurately portrayed as "Independent" rather than > "Camarilla" or "Sabbat"? Haven't read the novels. Isn't Vykos a counter-example? > The CCG describes Lucita's fictional character > more accurately than the RPG version... ?? > So what? It's all still the WoD. > You call Lucita (above) an RPG figure cast in CN:Lasombra. Lucita is more > accurately the intellectual property of White Wolf (copyrighted, all rights > reserved, etc.), and they can do with it as they see fit. The RPG stats are > just her first incarnation as intellectual property. To cling to those RPG > details for every media used or game printed would be folly (and _booooring_ > ;-) Well, as a RPGamer I don't usually think of characters as intellectual property, so that distinction doesn't mean much to me. But IMHO things as basic as Clan and Sect affiliations shouldn't be messed with when crossing over to fiction or CCG. Tadeusz

Tadeusz wrote in message <398B1A5C...@webmails.com>... >> The CCG describes Lucita's fictional character >> more accurately than the RPG version... > > ?? > My point was, if you start from the novel's description of Lucita, rather than the RPG, then VTES does a better job of describing the character's political situation... >> So what? It's all still the WoD. >> You call Lucita (above) an RPG figure cast in CN:Lasombra. Lucita is more >> accurately the intellectual property of White Wolf (copyrighted, all rights >> reserved, etc.), and they can do with it as they see fit. The RPG stats are >> just her first incarnation as intellectual property. To cling to those RPG >> details for every media used or game printed would be folly (and _booooring_ >> ;-) > > Well, as a RPGamer I don't usually think of characters as intellectual >property, so that distinction doesn't mean much to me. But IMHO things >as basic as Clan and Sect affiliations shouldn't be messed with when >crossing over to fiction or CCG. > IMHO, White Wolf should do as they see fit with their intellectual property, to make each product stand on its own as interesting and entertaining (and, for games, playable) in its own right. Stick with translating the game from the VTM rulebook, and all you'll ever attract is VTM players... [ quoted text not captured ]

R. David Zopf wrote: > > Tadeusz wrote in message <398B1A5C...@webmails.com>... > > >> The CCG describes Lucita's fictional character > >> more accurately than the RPG version... > > > > ?? > > > My point was, if you start from the novel's description of Lucita, rather > than the RPG, then VTES does a better job of describing the character's > political situation... AFAIK there is no/little difference between the RPG and the novel as far as Lucita's political situation is concerned. On the other hand, VtES lists her as a Lasombra, whereas she is technically a !Lasombra (http://www.white-wolf.com/Games/Pages/Sig%20Characters/Lucita). I don't think it is sooo very horrible, but it does create an inconsistency: why can't Beast use patagia flaps, if Lucita can use Elysean Fields? On the other hand, Keminitri is allowed normal Setite cards, whereas she is on the run from Set himself. Why bother? No brain, no pain. Tadeusz

> Oh, and in the book of Wyrm, no vampire in on the Pentex board of > directors, so already we aren't consistent... Enzo Giovanni. You are incorrect. Please refer to the Clanbook: Giovanni where they list prominant members. Enzo Giovanni is a low ranking Giovanni who is being used as a red herring to draw out enemies to the clan. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

Tadeusz <tad...@webmails.com> wrote: >R. David Zopf wrote: >> >> Tadeusz wrote in message <398B1A5C...@webmails.com>... >> >> >> The CCG describes Lucita's fictional character >> >> more accurately than the RPG version... >> > >> > ?? >> > >> My point was, if you start from the novel's description of Lucita, rather >> than the RPG, then VTES does a better job of describing the character's >> political situation... > AFAIK there is no/little difference between the RPG and the novel as >far as Lucita's political situation is concerned. On the other hand, >VtES lists her as a Lasombra, whereas she is technically a !Lasombra >(http://www.white-wolf.com/Games/Pages/Sig%20Characters/Lucita). Okay, bear with me here... Isn't a Lasombra antitribu a Lasombra that is a part of or in some way supports the Camarilla? Regards, R. David Zopf guenh...@mindspring.com [ quoted text not captured ]

> Okay, bear with me here... Isn't a Lasombra antitribu a Lasombra that > is a part of or in some way supports the Camarilla? AFAIK no. In the main RPG book, it is stated that the non-tzim, no-lasombra clans of the Sabbat style themselves antitribu , meaning 'anti-clans'. Then elsewhere there is a 2-pages description of the Lasombra antitribu of the Camarilla (with no symbol whatsoever btw). Antitribu probably means 'as opposed to the main/traditional body of the Clan'. This is supported with Lucita's online description (which is a bit old btw, perhaps predating VtM's revised edition). I'd also like to add that the RPG's way of changing the Clan symbols for Sabbat antitribu is to put an additional picture in the background (you knew that) and that the picture is the ouline of the lower part of the Sabbat logo (an inverted spiked ankh). Tadeusz

Tadeusz wrote in message <398DF753...@webmails.com>... >> Okay, bear with me here... Isn't a Lasombra antitribu a Lasombra that >> is a part of or in some way supports the Camarilla? > > AFAIK no. In the main RPG book, it is stated that the non-tzim, >no-lasombra clans of the Sabbat style themselves antitribu , meaning >'anti-clans'. Then elsewhere there is a 2-pages description of the >Lasombra antitribu of the Camarilla (with no symbol whatsoever btw). >Antitribu probably means 'as opposed to the main/traditional body of the >Clan'. This is supported with Lucita's online description (which is a >bit old btw, perhaps predating VtM's revised edition). > Okay. This clarifies some of the murkiness I've been experienceing regarding the details of accuracy. So, an Las-anti can be independant or Camarilla, as it sees fit... Good enough. I still think it's a bad idea to have a clan of one vampire in the CCG, though :-) Its tough enough with only 10 Assamites and Setites, you know... Calling her an Independant Lasombra is more than adequate for VTES. Regards, R. David Zopf [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8mg8ku$vdk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > > > Oh, and in the book of Wyrm, no vampire in on the Pentex board of > > directors, so already we aren't consistent... Enzo Giovanni. > > You are incorrect. Please refer to the Clanbook: Giovanni where they > list prominant members. Enzo Giovanni is a low ranking Giovanni who is > being used as a red herring to draw out enemies to the clan. Sorry, don't have that one, but that just heightens the inconsistnecies in the WoD, which makes the RPG fun, but why the card game shouldn't be an exact crossover. Cameron [ quoted text not captured ]

>Oh, and in the book of Wyrm, no vampire in on the Pentex board of >directors, so already we aren't consistent... Enzo Giovanni. That's because Enzo's dead (as in he's had Final Death). There's a blurb about it in that Pentex book (I personally don't have it). On a sidenote, I recall hearing something about a Malkavian Anti being on the board? Oh well. Whatever. Halcyan 2

>yeah, but i recall that if you took her WoD stats she comes out as like >a 13 capacity vampire, a bit big for the Card game. James seems to be >saying that whoever Lucita is in the Card game, her situation will >'ultimatly' be based on the card game, not V:tM. No, she wouldn't be a 13th capacity vampire. You can roughly *estimate* by taking the "RPG generation" number and subtracating that from 15. Etrius for example is a 4th gen and he is among the highest capacity of vampires (at 11). I'll have to re-check, but I think that this corresponds nicely for most of the vampires that are "apparantly" from the canon storyline. On a quick sidenote, but are there any thoughts on whether the Sabbat vampire Dylan (Ventrue Anti) is supposed to "resemble" some other Ventrue Anti named Dylan in the Kindred's Most Wanted Book (or was it the Red List book?). I don't have either but I know there was some Ventrue Anti with the same name floating around...and if there was, a "6 capacity" seemed sort of low... Halcyan 2

> On a quick sidenote, but are there any thoughts on whether the Sabbat vampire > Dylan (Ventrue Anti) is supposed to "resemble" some other Ventrue Anti named > Dylan in the Kindred's Most Wanted Book (or was it the Red List book?). Yes. The portraits are very close. But I didn't remember him being !Ventrue, rather !Tremere. I may be mistaken, and I don't own the book any more. >I don't > have either but I know there was some Ventrue Anti with the same name floating > around...and if there was, a "6 capacity" seemed sort of low... I think he was just a weakling who diablerized the wrong guy in London. Tadeusz

Tadeusz <tadeusz.no....@webmails.com> wrote: >> On a quick sidenote, but are there any thoughts on whether the >> Sabbat vampire Dylan (Ventrue Anti) is supposed to "resemble" >> some other Ventrue Anti named Dylan in the Kindred's Most Wanted >> Book (or was it the Red List book?). > > Yes. The portraits are very close. But I didn't remember him being > !Ventrue, rather !Tremere. I may be mistaken, and I don't own the > book any more. I do happen to own the book. Dylan is a !Ventrue and is the same vampire featured in VTES. The haircut is even the same. However, the disciplines don't match in the slightest. Another vampire from that book that's also in VTES is Kemintiri. Regards, Noal -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

> On a quick sidenote, but are there any thoughts on whether the Sabbat vampire > Dylan (Ventrue Anti) is supposed to "resemble" some other Ventrue Anti named > Dylan in the Kindred's Most Wanted Book (or was it the Red List book?). I don't > have either but I know there was some Ventrue Anti with the same name floating > around...and if there was, a "6 capacity" seemed sort of low... I believe they are one in the same. Even the picture on the card is identical to the anathema Dylan. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

I didn't think this thread had enough messages, so I figured I'd add one more.

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:09:00 GMT, LSJ wrote: >Her card does not display that symbol - it merely displays the >standard Lasombra symbol (below) on the Sabbat wax seal (not in the >"compass star" that the Lasombra antitribu symbol has). > >Technically, I suppose, the Sabbat wax seal should not be used >since she is not Sabbat, but, for the card game, the clan symbol >includes both the crown and the wax seal. Not any more. The VTES symbols no longer feature a wax seal and the antitribu clans have a compass rose. My girlfriend was quite keen on the new legend card and I asked her what she made of the inconsistency between it and the vampire cards. Her deduction was that you look at the colour of the clan symbol and ignore the background. If it's black then it's the main clan. If it's white then it's antitribu. Andrew

Just trying out this google beta thing... Back to Embrace, Progeny, Rites: According to card text, clan (and by default sect) are tied to the clan's status at the time the new kindred comes into play, for purposes of the new wordings of the Indie clan votes. It still strikes me as *very* odd that Gangrel Princes and Justicars create Progeny that aren't Camarilla. By default they'd be Independent now right? I certainly would love to see "and sect" be added to all these cards so that things would be consistent for those trying to make Group 1/2 Gangrel decks (and perhaps Black Hand Assamite only decks, with Embraces!) *GRIN* Jeff

>According to card text, clan (and by default sect) are tied to the >clan's status at the time the new kindred comes into play, for purposes >of the new wordings of the Indie clan votes. Since the new Independent Acceptance votes seem to do a pretty good job, how about a similar one for the Gangrel? Have a political card allowing the Gangrel to rejoin the Camarilla. (That way, the pre-Anarchs Gangrel decks can retain their old Camarilla flavor). Halcyan 2

Oh sweet jesus... What this game needs now, is another wallpaper worthy card. Like I need a hole in my head...

[ quoted text not captured ] Or you could issue a very minor (and intuitive, IMO) errata to these cards inserting "and sect" in after "clan." :P Might be an elegant way just errata The Embrace and adjust the "new vamp comes into play rule" since Third Tradition and Creation Rites imply Camarilla and Sabbat respectively. If you want Indie Gangrel, you got 'em. If you want Camarilla Gangrel, you got 'em. If you want any assortment of odd-ball Clan/Sect affiliations via Embrace, you got 'em, provided you can find the proper sire or make them as such via Out of the Frying Pan or Into the Fire. (How's that for a rhyme?) I'm envisioning a Gangrel P/J breed deck with some Judgement: Camarilla Segregation for table pressure/annoyance. The Gangrel Princes and Justicars shouldn't be forced to hose themselves if they also want to make Third Tradition: Progeny! Jeff

jeff_kuta wrote: > It still strikes me as *very* odd that Gangrel Princes and Justicars > create Progeny that aren't Camarilla. By default they'd be Independent > now right? > > I certainly would love to see "and sect" be added to all these cards so > that things would be consistent for those trying to make Group 1/2 > Gangrel decks (and perhaps Black Hand Assamite only decks, with > Embraces!) *GRIN* It would force me to rethink my Giangalleazo + Marcus Vitel decks, however. Making Sabbat Lasombra 3rd Traditions is a bonus in those decks.

"jeff_kuta" <jeff...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1102396044....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > Or you could issue a very minor (and intuitive, IMO) errata to these > cards inserting "and sect" in after "clan." :P Or you could drop the "default sect" concept altogether and let card text apply for crypt cards and let inheritance be the default for undefined cases (like Embrace). Would screw the screw angle on Derange, though. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

jeff_kuta <jeff...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Halcyan 2 wrote: >> >According to card text, clan (and by default sect) are tied to the >> >clan's status at the time the new kindred comes into play, for > purposes >> >of the new wordings of the Indie clan votes. >> >> Since the new Independent Acceptance votes seem to do a pretty good > job, how >> about a similar one for the Gangrel? Have a political card allowing > the Gangrel >> to rejoin the Camarilla. (That way, the pre-Anarchs Gangrel decks can > retain >> their old Camarilla flavor). > Or you could issue a very minor (and intuitive, IMO) errata to these > cards inserting "and sect" in after "clan." :P Actually, you could just leave the card text the same, and remove the Default Sect rule from the basic rules. Current text of The Embrace, for example: Put this card in play; it becomes a 1 capacity vampire. This vampire is not considered unique, must hunt this turn, and is the same clan as the acting vampire. It says "same clan". Since Sect is not mentioned at all, there are two ways to intuitively interpret it: one, that there's some sort of Default Sect for the clan. Two, that the sect of the acting minion carries over. In the case of Clan Impersonation, or Qadir, if Default Sect were dropped, there would be a significant change, though; by the same logic, the acting minion would change *clan* but not *sect*. So if Qadir CI'd to Ventrue, he'd be an Independent Ventrue. I'd be OK with that, actually, but it's something to note.

LSJ wrote: > "jeff_kuta" <jeff...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:1102396044....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > Or you could issue a very minor (and intuitive, IMO) errata to these > > cards inserting "and sect" in after "clan." :P > > Or you could drop the "default sect" concept altogether and let > card text apply for crypt cards and let inheritance be the default > for undefined cases (like Embrace). > > Would screw the screw angle on Derange, though. Would it though? Derange says "The vampire with this card is considered to be the same clan as the acting vampire." If that were understood to mean clan and sect, a Camarilla Malk or Sabbat !Malk would also pass the same sect attribute to their Deranged targets, thus still screwing titles, etc. Jeff

LSJ wrote: > "jeff_kuta" <jeff...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:1102396044....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > Or you could issue a very minor (and intuitive, IMO) errata to these > > cards inserting "and sect" in after "clan." :P > > Or you could drop the "default sect" concept altogether and let > card text apply for crypt cards and let inheritance be the default > for undefined cases (like Embrace). > > Would screw the screw angle on Derange, though. Would it though? Derange says "The vampire with this card is considered [ quoted text not captured ]

jeff_kuta wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Per what I wrote, no. "card text applies" -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/