Rutor's Hand migration

In case other playgroups missed this (ours just noted it yesterday), Rutor's Hand has had its text migrate from: [tha] Put this card on the acting vampire. The vampire takes 1 aggravated damage (damage not preventable). Beginning with your next turn, the vampire gets one additional untap during each of your minion phases for the remainder of the game. A vampire can have only 1 Rutor's Hand. to: [tha] Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire takes 1 unpreventable aggravated damage. Beginning with your next turn, this vampire may untap once during each of your minion phases. A vampire may have only one Rutor's Hand. The important difference? It's now a 'may untap' and no longer a mandatory one. Which isn't a huge issue, admittedly, but it did come up in a local game yesterday (and mattered, as the Rutor'ed vampire was empty and previously would have been forced to untap and hunt, a not-necessarily-good prospect with both predator and prey playing intercept decks). -John Flournoy

[ quoted text not captured ] Hi, I'm not sure how you read that this untap was previously mandatory, as it doesn't say that this vampire must untap once during your minion phase. By the same potential logic, the second wording could be read to mean that the vampire can only untap once during a minion phase (therefore meaning that other untaps would be unusable), or it doesn't actually grant an untap but restricts the ability to untap to only once per minion phase, We had always played it, and other groups that I have played with have done the same, as the vampire ganis an (optional) additional untap once per minion phase. Otherwise I think the expected utility of this card is reduced as it meant that you had to untap as soon as the action was taken (mandatory "action") and then if empty (as the case you cited) must hunt immediately. Anyway, probably just semantics of the way it is read. Perhaps a question LSJ could answer - was it mandatory before? Is it untap limiting now? (I am expecting a No to both answers) Cheers Andy VEKN Setite Ruler of Cambridge

Slytherin escreveu: > I'm not sure how you read that this untap was previously mandatory, as > it doesn't say that this vampire must untap once during your minion > phase. It was mandatory. "Beginning with your next turn, the vampire gets one additional untap during each of your minion phases for the remainder of the game" provided an unconditional and mandatory untap. The key here, I think is the absence of wording such as "may untap" or "gets one optional additional untap", for example. > By the same potential logic, the second wording could be read to mean > that the vampire can only untap once during a minion phase (therefore > meaning that other untaps would be unusable), or it doesn't actually > grant an untap but restricts the ability to untap to only once per > minion phase, I wouldn't think so, because Rutor's Hand now gives you one (and only one) optional untap during your minion phase, but doesn't seem to preclude other effects from doing the same. Abraço, Luiz Mello Brazil VTES NC

In message <1166518198.0...@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, Slytherin <an...@operamail.com> writes: >I'm not sure how you read that this untap was previously mandatory, as >it doesn't say that this vampire must untap once during your minion >phase. It was read like that because it was mandatory. Let us go to http://groups.google.com/ and use the obscure incantation[0]: author:LSJ mandatory "rutor's hand" And lo: <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/5ecc44 d5d84c2bda> **** Rutor's Hand's untap is not conditional on some other event. It can be "ordered" in the minion phase whenever you like (but must be used before you leave the minion phase). **** In short: "Rutor's Hand's untap.... must be used before you leave the minion phase." [0] If you don't like this one, try: author:LSJ "must untap" rutor's <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/d608c9 3fd2ba365a> **** > Because : a vampire whick have a Rutor's Hand bleed and is blocked. > After the combat he have no more blood. > Can he say : i choose to not untap ( for exmple because an other > player wait him during the hunt ). > Can he do this ? He doesn't have to untap immediately. But he does have to untap before the end of the minion phase. **** -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

On Dec 19, 3:49 am, "Slytherin" <a...@operamail.com> wrote: > We had always played it, and other groups that I have played with have > done the same, as the vampire ganis an (optional) additional untap once > per minion phase. Otherwise I think the expected utility of this card > is reduced as it meant that you had to untap as soon as the action was > taken (mandatory "action") and then if empty (as the case you cited) > must hunt immediately. > Note how your playgroup has been *adding* the word "optional". How 'bout this, though: Foo gets an additional untap. Foo gets +1 strength. What happens to Foo during close-range combat? What happens to Foo during the minion phase? -- - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew

[ quoted text not captured ] First Christmas fool award goes to me! At least we'll be playing it correctly from now on. Andy VEKN Setite Ruler of Cambridge (probably should abdicate after that one!)

> Which isn't a huge issue, admittedly, but it did come up in a local > game yesterday (and mattered, as the Rutor'ed vampire was empty and > previously would have been forced to untap and hunt, a > not-necessarily-good prospect with both predator and prey playing > intercept decks). As LSJ pointed out in IRC yesterday, you could always declare that you were done acting and then still have time to untap during your minion phase. The tiny window between the last action and the end of the phase is where Madness Network operates, and LSJ confirmed that the window exists whether or not Madness Network is in play. This is still possible with the optional untap, in case you want to leave an empty or otherwise mandatorily acting vampire untapped to block/react.

"CthuluKitty" <vtana...@riseup.net> wrote in message news:1166550227.4...@t46g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Huh? You have an untapped vampire who has a pending mandatory action, and it's still your minion phase, but that vampire doesn't have to take that action?! If I'm understanding this correctly, could we get a non-IRC confirmation of this ruling? Thanks, Pat

[ quoted text not captured ] Yes. [RTR 06-DEC-1999] http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/c5060eba4e347f81