I recently found much to my surprise that a measly little 4CL
deck can in fact sweep a table of good NL decks and no I
did'nt play Malk SB I played Ventrue vote\bleed\combat.
"multi-purpose" decks I've been told recently can't compete.
Well ask Xian if my "Kitchen sink" decks are junk.
Enough about that. A lot of recent posts indicate that 4CL players
fear SB decks.Well I can't speak for everyone, But I really don't
have much of a problem with them. While true they are rarely played
in my group anymore. They can be beat even in 4CL, Imagine that.
You just have to hit them hard and fast and never let up. That is
especialytrue if they are your predator. Thus my decks always have
some way to enter combat. That as we all know is the way to cripple SB.
You just have to have a way to kill vamps. So all of my decks do. Call
them"Kitchen Sink" if you will, but be warned if they are built right
and playedwell they WILL kill you. No matter what your strategy may be.
I must ask though how do you get a one dimensional NL deck to work
well consistantly. I recently Built a single purpose NL Tremere Rush
deck It had all the pieces in great numbers and all that happened was
me stuck with a handful of half a combo quietly getting pummeled. how
do you get around this without stacking the deck beforehand? And what
do you do when this happens? My playing style as you may have guessed
is "multi-purpose" I do like the fact that if one part isn't working
for whatever reason I have a plan B. In a one dimensional deck whats
the plan B? do you just concede or sit there discarding till you get
beat? or what?
off on another rant
Eric
lk...@uswest.net wrote in message <355B6DB8...@uswest.net>...
>I recently found much to my surprise that a measly little 4CL
>deck can in fact sweep a table of good NL decks and no I
>did'nt play Malk SB I played Ventrue vote\bleed\combat.
>"multi-purpose" decks I've been told recently can't compete.
>Well ask Xian if my "Kitchen sink" decks are junk.
It did okay when we were playing a 4CL game, but you will also notice that
all 3 of us played approximately the same deck with slightly different
twists...I played a Malk Aus/Obf/Cel deck with Hidden Weapons, 44s, Zip
Guns, Telepathic Misdirections & some votes...your deck was a Toreador
version of the same (without the Obf and with Pre), and Skup's deck was
quite similar to yours...
<snip a bunch o' stuff>
>I must ask though how do you get a one dimensional NL deck to work
>well consistantly. I recently Built a single purpose NL Tremere Rush
>deck It had all the pieces in great numbers and all that happened was
>me stuck with a handful of half a combo quietly getting pummeled. how
>do you get around this without stacking the deck beforehand? And what
>do you do when this happens? My playing style as you may have guessed
>is "multi-purpose" I do like the fact that if one part isn't working
>for whatever reason I have a plan B. In a one dimensional deck whats
>the plan B? do you just concede or sit there discarding till you get
>beat? or what?
Well, part of the problem there was we were all playing combat decks that
game. Your Tremere deck was pretty well designed, and would have held up
well against most other decks, I think...unfortunately, you ran up against
my Ebanezer Roush/Maximum Aggravated Hand Damage deck...and with the
Immortal Grapples, it was rather hard for you to get off the Theft of Vitae
first round. As well, Skup's deck that time around was a Gangrel deck
(surprise...) and although it couldn't deal with the Maneuver/Theft of
Vitae, Walk of Flame won't hurt it. (Stupid Gangrel and their Skin of Rock,
etc.) So, before I answer, I think that the reason that didn't do so well
was an artifact of the game situation. The Tremere would have hosed many
other decks...(*ahem* especially with the Thoughts Betrayed you
included...but I won't rant on that here...)...so, in answer to your
question, yeah, you need to discard, and I'd try to throw a few more
maneuvers in there so that you don't get hosed by Gangrel agg. damage second
round...Drain Essence is always really amusing. Or you can try the route
I've tried...the Tha/For deck, that will get the Gangrel, but few others...
Xian
> >I must ask though how do you get a one dimensional NL deck to work
> >well consistantly. I recently Built a single purpose NL Tremere Rush
> >deck It had all the pieces in great numbers and all that happened was
> >me stuck with a handful of half a combo quietly getting pummeled. how
> >do you get around this without stacking the deck beforehand? And what
> >do you do when this happens? My playing style as you may have guessed
> >is "multi-purpose" I do like the fact that if one part isn't working
> >for whatever reason I have a plan B. In a one dimensional deck whats
> >the plan B? do you just concede or sit there discarding till you get
> >beat? or what?
>
Tremere Rush needs INDUSTRIAL quantities of manoeuvers to get away from IG.
Heidelberg castle, Jackie Therman, IR goggles and Apportation. And it
needs the presses for the second round Nightmare cards ... so maybe you
should do a Tha/Cel deck .... Pieter the anti gangrel, Tremere 5 bloke
whose name for the moment escapes me, weenie tha/THA + the Infernal
Familiar. Some of the Assamites have tha and cel, I seem to recall. Talaq
for an ally, if you have him. Although I've never built a 'serious'
tha/cel [kind of obvious given the vagueness of this post] I had a
rough-and-ready tha/cel deck that did really well against other
not-very-well contrsucted examples of archetypal decks.
Legbiter wrote in message ...
>
<snip Tremere rush questions>
>>>Tremere Rush needs INDUSTRIAL quantities of manoeuvers to get away from IG.
>Heidelberg castle, Jackie Therman, IR goggles and Apportation. And it
>needs the presses for the second round Nightmare cards ... so maybe you
>should do a Tha/Cel deck ....
Agreed...all good ideas. Tha/Cel is quite cool...especially with Blur +
Theft of Vitae...
>Pieter the anti gangrel,
No...he's got For, not Cel...although he works well in the Tha/For
deck...one of my staples (along with Muaziz, Cardano, and Marlene...)
>Tremere 5 bloke
>whose name for the moment escapes me,
Thomas Thorne? 6 Tremere DOM, tha, cel, aus, ani is pretty good...(I think
those disciplines are right...)
>weenie tha/THA + the Infernal
>Familiar. Some of the Assamites have tha and cel, I seem to recall.
Yes...Al-Ashrad, Amr of Alamut has CEL, THA, QUI I believe...mmm...Tha/Qui
deck...
>Talaq for an ally, if you have him.
I've always thought Talaq was kinda sucky...but maybe that's just
me...hey...wait a minute...can Allies gain life in excess of their stated
limits?
---------------------------------------------------
Talaq, The Immortal
Ally
Cost: 3 pool
Unique Ally with 3 life. 1R damage, 0 bleed. Talaq may play cards that
require basic Quietus or basic Thaumaturgy as a vampire with a capacity of
3. Any cost in blood is paid with his life. If a card would give him blood,
give him life. Talaq gets an optional maneuver each combat.
-----------------------------------------------------
Doesn't say anything about it...now that would make him cool...keep giving
him Theft of Vitae and butt-loads of life...if it is legal...
Another note...with Cel, you can do away with the Traps, and not get caught
in a combat you realize you don't want to be in. Plus, I have to mention
I've always been really fond of Blood Fury/Blood Rage/Soul Burn...not
preventable by For, weapon strikes don't work...there's not much more you
can ask for...mmm... Blur+Blood Rage...sweet sweet sweetness...
Quick list of Tha/Cel vampires off of the Crypt Monger (a *very good* web
tool!! check it out - http://benthic.ddg.com/lassolite/vampires/ </plug>)
Kalinda (Assamite 6- CEL, tha)
Anvil (Brujah 6- CEL, tha, Primogen)
Thomas Thorne (Tremere 6- cel,tha)
Parnassus (Assamite 7- CEL, tha)
Javier Montoya (Tremere 9- cel, THA, Prince)
Lazarus (Tremere 9- cel, THA, Primogen)
Cardano (Tremere 9- cel, THA Prince)
Klaus van der Veken (Toreador 9- CEL, tha Prince)
Al-Ashrad, Amr of Alamut (Assamite 9- CEL, THA)
Salinger (Brujah-anti 9- CEL, tha Archbishop)
Ethan Locke (Tremere-anti 9- cel, THA Archbishop)
Cassandra, Magus Prime (Tremere 10- cel, THA Primogen)
Samantha (Gangrel-anti 10- CEL, tha Bishop)
Lucian (Malkavian 10- cel, tha Justicar)
Ulugh Beg, the Watcher (Tremere 10- cel, THA Justicar)
Gwendolyn (Brujah 11- CEL, tha Inner Circle)
Greetings...{snip self congratulatory stuff}
> Enough about that. A lot of recent posts indicate that 4CL players
> fear SB decks.Well I can't speak for everyone, But I really don't
> have much of a problem with them. While true they are rarely played
> in my group anymore. They can be beat even in 4CL, Imagine that.
> You just have to hit them hard and fast and never let up. That is
> especialytrue if they are your predator. Thus my decks always have
> some way to enter combat. That as we all know is the way to cripple SB.
> You just have to have a way to kill vamps. So all of my decks do. Call
> them"Kitchen Sink" if you will, but be warned if they are built right
> and playedwell they WILL kill you. No matter what your strategy may be.
>
I don't think anyone would say that they can't be beat in a 4CL
enviroment,they can. When we used to play under CL, they were annoying,
but not
impossible. How does your Ventrue deck you mentioned "kill vamps"?
I've not seen to many Ventrue decks, already packing Votes,Bleed,Political
Actions,etc... Have room for much combat stuff. If your "kitchen sink"
decks are as great as you say, post one. I'd like to see it. Are the
other
players in your group experienced players? If so, how are you able to
win so often (as you seem to imply "they WILL kill you")? I've yet to see
a deck that can kill everyone, evertime.
> I must ask though how do you get a one dimensional NL deck to work
> well consistantly. I recently Built a single purpose NL Tremere Rush
> deck It had all the pieces in great numbers and all that happened was
> me stuck with a handful of half a combo quietly getting pummeled. how
> do you get around this without stacking the deck beforehand? And what
> do you do when this happens? My playing style as you may have guessed
> is "multi-purpose" I do like the fact that if one part isn't working
> for whatever reason I have a plan B. In a one dimensional deck whats
> the plan B? do you just concede or sit there discarding till you get
> beat? or what?
I think, just maybe, you aren't building very good NL decks, or youplayed
against something that tripped your deck up... Whoops, wait,
I forgot, you build all of your decks to deal with every circumstance.
I guess we're back to you not building very good no limit decks then.
Post your NL Tremere deck. Let's see it. That's how you back up
your bosts about being a good deck builder.
Chris
rho...@msnotes.wustl.edu
Chris Rhodes wrote:
> How does your Ventrue deck you mentioned "kill vamps"?
zipgun/dragon breath/amaranth
> I've not seen to many Ventrue decks, already packing Votes,Bleed,Political
> Actions,etc... Have room for much combat stuff. If your "kitchen sink"
> decks are as great as you say, post one.
I've posted a couple already my "good multi-purpose deck" a pretty
decentToreador deck. and my "Anti-sabbat" Ventrue deck. check dejanews
> I'd like to see it. Are the otherplayers in your group experienced
> players?
very experianced and very good
> If so, how are you able to
> win so often (as you seem to imply "they WILL kill you")? I've yet to see
> a deck that can kill everyone, evertime.
obviosly you can't win every game, But many people on this group seem tobe
under the mistaken impresion that they can't be competative. I assure you
they can win with some degree of consistancy
>
>
> > I must ask though how do you get a one dimensional NL deck to work
> > well consistantly. I recently Built a single purpose NL Tremere Rush
> > deck It had all the pieces in great numbers and all that happened was
> > me stuck with a handful of half a combo quietly getting pummeled. how
> > do you get around this without stacking the deck beforehand? And what
> > do you do when this happens? My playing style as you may have guessed
> > is "multi-purpose" I do like the fact that if one part isn't working
> > for whatever reason I have a plan B. In a one dimensional deck whats
> > the plan B? do you just concede or sit there discarding till you get
> > beat? or what?
>> , or you played against something that tripped your deck up...
thats probably the case
> Whoops, wait,
> I forgot, you build all of your decks to deal with every circumstance.
not this time I went with a one dimensional approach and got killed becauseof
a deck that hosed me with IG If the deck had been more my style I may
have still lost but I would have been able to last a little longer.
> I guess we're back to you not building very good no limit decks then.
> Post your NL Tremere deck. Let's see it.
will do
new adress same old rants
Eric
>
Chris Rhodes wrote:
> Post your NL Tremere deck. Let's see it.
here goes
crypt (13)
2 Rebekka
2 Muaziz
1 Sarah Cobbler
1 Astrid Thomas
1 Ignatius
1 Dr. John Casey
1 Thomas Thorne
1 Blythe Candeleria
1 Mustafa Rahman
1 Roreca Quaid
1 Jing Wei
masters(17)
3 Academic HG
4 Blood Doll
2 Minion Tap
3 Thaumaturgy
3 Dominate
2 Haven Uncovered
equipment(6)
3 Hawg
3 IR Goggles
combat(62)
11 Bums Rush
9 Trap
7 Fake Out
5 Boxed In
2 Thoughts Betrayed
4 Dodge
11 Theft of Vitae
6 Blood to Water
4 Walk of Flame
3 Burst of Sunlight
Other(6)
4 Rutors Hand
1 Outcast Mage
1 Talaq the Immortal
Eric Freeman wrote in message <355C83E0...@uswest.net>...
>> Post your NL Tremere deck. Let's see it.>
>here goes
>
>crypt (13)
>2 Rebekka
>2 Muaziz
>1 Sarah Cobbler
>1 Astrid Thomas
>1 Ignatius
>1 Dr. John Casey
>1 Thomas Thorne
>1 Blythe Candeleria
>1 Mustafa Rahman
>1 Roreca Quaid
>1 Jing Wei
As a straight Tremere deck goes, not bad, if you were to change to Tha/Cel,
I've posted a list of the vamps with both already...Merril Molitor is
*always* good
>masters(17)
>
>3 Academic HG>4 Blood Doll
>2 Minion Tap
>3 Thaumaturgy
>3 Dominate
>2 Haven Uncovered
Except for the 3 HG, this is fairly okay, I'd say. I'd only put in 1...much
lower chance of getting it, but then you aren't wasting card space...for
Cel/Tha, obviously some Cel cards, and if the clans diversify a little
(Assamite, maybe?) throw in the Underworld HG
>equipment(6)
>3 Hawg
>3 IR Goggles
Maybe a couple more of each? Unless Cel/Tha...then get rid of them
>combat(62)
>11 Bums Rush
>9 Trap
Ehh...Trap is okay, but with the space you're using on Traps, Fake Outs and
Boxed In, you could definitely throw in Cel and replace most of this with
Flash, or others...
>7 Fake Out
>5 Boxed In
>2 Thoughts Betrayed
Hate the card...it is wrong...I'm going to shame you (and others...) out of
playing it...
>4 Dodge
This could also be replaced with Cel cards...Sideslip maybe (oh so
useful...)
>11 Theft of Vitae
>6 Blood to Water
>4 Walk of Flame
>3 Burst of Sunlight
>
>Other(6)
>4 Rutors Hand
>1 Outcast Mage
>1 Talaq the Immortal
I've never found the allies very useful for the Tremere...although I don't
usually play as much blood gain as you seem to. And I'm impressed by the 4
Rutor's Hand...wish I had that many...
Like I said before, it was pretty effective, but was hurt by playing 2 other
combat decks which were fairly resistant to it...Pot/Pro with Immortal
Grapple, and a Gangrel/Ravnos deck with a bunch of For/Chi...
I have never been big on the discipline-less maneuvers & presses. Again,
I'd throw in Celerity. Or a whole bunch of Apportations...those would be
good in the deck...Press to continue combat/Maneuver...you'd need a whole
dump truck full, though.
Xian
Xian wrote:
> I've always thought Talaq was kinda sucky...but maybe that's just
> me...hey...wait a minute...can Allies gain life in excess of their stated
> limits?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Talaq, The Immortal
> Ally
> Cost: 3 pool
> Unique Ally with 3 life. 1R damage, 0 bleed. Talaq may play cards that
> require basic Quietus or basic Thaumaturgy as a vampire with a capacity of
> 3. Any cost in blood is paid with his life. If a card would give him blood,
> give him life. Talaq gets an optional maneuver each combat.
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> Doesn't say anything about it...now that would make him cool...keep giving
> him Theft of Vitae and butt-loads of life...if it is legal...
Legal.
Allies/Retainers
* There is no limit to an Ally's life (if some effect gives an Ally more
life than it started with, the excess does not drain off). [TOM 960604]
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team
> >I must ask though how do you get a one dimensional NL deck to work
> >well consistantly. I recently Built a single purpose NL Tremere Rush
> >deck It had all the pieces in great numbers and all that happened was
> >me stuck with a handful of half a combo quietly getting pummeled. how
> >do you get around this without stacking the deck beforehand? And what
> >do you do when this happens? My playing style as you may have guessed
> >is "multi-purpose" I do like the fact that if one part isn't working
> >for whatever reason I have a plan B. In a one dimensional deck whats
> >the plan B? do you just concede or sit there discarding till you get
> >beat? or what?
>> Well, part of the problem there was we were all playing combat decks that
> game. Your Tremere deck was pretty well designed, and would have held up
> well against most other decks, I think...unfortunately, you ran up against
> my Ebanezer Roush/Maximum Aggravated Hand Damage deck...and with the
> Immortal Grapples, it was rather hard for you to get off the Theft of Vitae
> first round. As well, Skup's deck that time around was a Gangrel deck
> (surprise...) and although it couldn't deal with the Maneuver/Theft of
> Vitae, Walk of Flame won't hurt it. (Stupid Gangrel and their Skin of Rock,
> etc.) So, before I answer, I think that the reason that didn't do so well
> was an artifact of the game situation. The Tremere would have hosed many
> other decks...(*ahem* especially with the Thoughts Betrayed you
> included...but I won't rant on that here...)...so, in answer to your
> question, yeah, you need to discard, and I'd try to throw a few more
> maneuvers in there so that you don't get hosed by Gangrel agg. damage second
> round...Drain Essence is always really amusing. Or you can try the route
> I've tried...the Tha/For deck, that will get the Gangrel, but few others...
>
> Xian
Good point there. I've always found that 60-80% of a total 100% chance
to win any particular game comes down to two things: seating position
and draw.
If you can build a good deck then your card draw is much more manageable,
meaning that your capability to win a game should only be affected 10-20%
by card draw. If you build poor decks then your chances to win any
particular game can be skewed by 20-50%.
If you are sitting with in an unfavorable position, but otherwise have
a well designed deck, your chances to win are damaged by roughly 30-60%,
all depending on how bad your position is. Ever play a Toreador vote
deck with an interceptor for a prey and a Brujah rush for a predator...
not a pretty sight.
Now, I admit I am being pretty empirical here, and I do not have the
exact data to back it up, so I admit that this is merely my experience
with playing the game.
All said and done, when a bunch of good players, with good decks and with
neutral seating positions, get together each player should have approx.
a 60% chance to win - meaning it is the player skill with the cards
and the table management that determines the winner.
Note though, even if you are a good player (or like myself, delusional),
if you have a bad seating position and a poor draw - your chances to
win are pretty slim - not impossible (which is why we play the game),
just slim.
Jaysen
Xian wrote:
> >
> >3 Academic HG
>
> >4 Blood Doll
> >2 Minion Tap
>
>> Except for the 3 HG, this is fairly okay, I'd say. I'd only put in 1...much
> lower chance of getting it, but then you aren't wasting card space.
the problem is though it's the cornerstone of my pool gain I have toget it on
the table reliably. And really like a backup in case it's destroyed
> >2 Thoughts Betrayed
>
> Hate the card...it is wrong...I'm going to shame you (and others...) out of
> playing it...
then what will I do about IG It's the only card I can think of that gets around
itand allows you to strike with what you want
>
>
>
> I have never been big on the discipline-less maneuvers & presses.
I find they are the best in a lot of cases especially if your using a lot
ofsmall vamps and you can't insure superior disciplines
new address same old rants
Eric
>
: here goes:
: crypt (13)
: 2 Rebekka
: 2 Muaziz
: 1 Sarah Cobbler
: 1 Astrid Thomas
: 1 Ignatius
: 1 Dr. John Casey
: 1 Thomas Thorne
: 1 Blythe Candeleria
: 1 Mustafa Rahman
: 1 Roreca Quaid
: 1 Jing Wei
I'm not intimately familiar with the Tremere, but from what I remember,
this looks good.
: masters(17)
:
: 3 Academic HG: 4 Blood Doll
: 2 Minion Tap: 3 Thaumaturgy: 3 Dominate
: 2 Haven Uncovered
You have two Dom cards in the entire deck, so 3 Dom masters seems silly.
I'd say take them all out or put in some bleed cards. Myabe make this a
Bruise/Bleed deck and take out some of the rush.
Also, 3 HG's is a bit much.
: equipment(6): 3 Hawg
: 3 IR Goggles
Maneuvers being important to those Tha strikes, I guess the goggles are
OK, although you might want to try those Tha press/maneuver cards from the
original set and Sabbat.
I'd ditch the Hawgs.
: combat(62): 11 Bums Rush
: 9 Trap: 7 Fake Out
: 5 Boxed In
Since Tha has maneuver and press cards (see above), I'd take these out in
place for those.
: 2 Thoughts Betrayed: 4 Dodge
I don't know about this; unless you think there will be non-grappled
strikes you want to avoid...
: 11 Theft of Vitae: 6 Blood to Water
: 4 Walk of Flame
: 3 Burst of Sunlight
Since the second round strikes are often kind of hard to pull off, you
might want to cut down on the number of these. Plus, how do you avoid
taking the Burst damage yourself?
: Other(6): 4 Rutors Hand
: 1 Outcast Mage
: 1 Talaq the Immortal
The Hand won't really be that useful, since you only have a few actions
you can take; rush, equip, and bleed for 1. It would be a lot better if
you had some bleed cards. Also, allies are pretty bad, as well as being
expensive.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
In article <355CA068...@uswest.net>,
Eric Freeman <eric...@uswest.net> wrote:
[xian: tb, boo hiss]
>then what will I do about IG It's the only card I can think of that gets around
>itand allows you to strike with what you want
aside: eric, could you please break your lines at 70 columns?
they kind of spill all over the place.
Re IG: Stay at long range. Fold in celerity if you can (Kalinda,
Anvil, Thomas Thorne)x4 as a crypt. Or throw in 10 to 15 Apportations.
>> I have never been big on the discipline-less maneuvers & presses.>I find they are the best in a lot of cases especially if your using a lot
>ofsmall vamps and you can't insure superior disciplines
I usually just use 3 to 4 distinct vampires in my crypts, with 4 or 3 of
each. If everyone in the crypt has what I want at superior, no need
to bother with skill cards.
And this deck is pretty tha-centric; very little dom or aus. Blythe
Candeleria, Sarah Cobbler, and Magdalena Schaefer should do you fine
as a crypt; you can even throw in Muaziz for the finishing moves, and
still have a small average vampire draw.
I'd cut down to 2 each of IRGogs and Hawg, and use 2-4 magic of the
smith -- getting your permanents intercepted does your long-term
prospects no good.
cheers,
gomi
--
go ahead, wreck your life: that might be good
who can say what's wrong or right? nobody can
Eric Freeman wrote:
> <snip>> > >2 Thoughts Betrayed
> >
> > Hate the card...it is wrong...I'm going to shame you (and others...)
> out of
> > playing it...
>> then what will I do about IG It's the only card I can think of that
> gets around
> itand allows you to strike with what you want
>
Try maneuvering. Including celerity will help that a lot. Thoughts
betrayed... shame shame shame. :) Against nosferatu, you generally
shouldn't have much trouble setting the range, if you have celerity...
although I hate generalising like that :)
David Naseby
IMO, you didn't do anything horribly wrong here, other than picking the
Tremere. In my experience, a straight Tremere aus/dom/tha deck will do very
poorly in almost any environment. Adding a large number of disciplineless
permanents will help, but it's still very difficult. I've personally found it
next to impossible to build an effective Tremere deck. This is why there's
such a long history of Tremere with celerity or Tremere with fortitude decks.
Those decks, if done well, can whup ass, but once again, the proportions are
tough.
-Chris
>
> > Post your NL Tremere deck. Let's see it.
>> here goes
>
> crypt (13)
> 2 Rebekka
> 2 Muaziz
> 1 Sarah Cobbler
> 1 Astrid Thomas
> 1 Ignatius
> 1 Dr. John Casey
> 1 Thomas Thorne
> 1 Blythe Candeleria
> 1 Mustafa Rahman
> 1 Roreca Quaid
> 1 Jing Wei
>> masters(17)
>
> 3 Academic HG
> 4 Blood Doll
> 2 Minion Tap
> 3 Thaumaturgy
> 3 Dominate
> 2 Haven Uncovered
>> equipment(6)
> 3 Hawg
> 3 IR Goggles
>> combat(62)
> 11 Bums Rush
> 9 Trap
> 7 Fake Out
> 5 Boxed In> 2 Thoughts Betrayed
> 4 Dodge> 11 Theft of Vitae
> 6 Blood to Water
> 4 Walk of Flame
> 3 Burst of Sunlight
>> Other(6)
> 4 Rutors Hand
> 1 Outcast Mage
> 1 Talaq the Immortal
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
ber...@cco.caltech.edu wrote:
> IMO, you didn't do anything horribly wrong here, other than picking
> the
> Tremere. In my experience, a straight Tremere aus/dom/tha deck will
> do very
> poorly in almost any environment. Adding a large number of
> disciplineless
> permanents will help, but it's still very difficult. I've personally
> found it
> next to impossible to build an effective Tremere deck. This is why
> there's
> such a long history of Tremere with celerity or Tremere with fortitude
> decks.
> Those decks, if done well, can whup ass, but once again, the
> proportions are
> tough.
>
!!!
I don't believe it. Our local Tremere wins about 40% of all games with
really different strategies.
Some of them are:
-The magic artefact collectors:
Tremere do NOTHING except getting out a Talbot's Chainsaw on a famed
vamp living in a Palatial Estate (both cards crafted with Magic of the
Smith), Chantry and Huntingground and defending their position.
Untap: Famed Vamp enters Torpor due to Chainsaw Damage, During Master
Phase this vamp leaves Torpor using the Chantry and gain one blood with
Palatial Estate so that he does not need to hunt.
-Hunt and die
Drain enemy vamps of their blood with whatever means nessessary. Then
block their hunt, torporize'em and finish'em with Muaziz or Nephandus.
-Braindead
Bum's Rush, Thoughts Betrayed, Apparition, Theft of Vitae, Apparition,
Apparition, Walk of Flame.
In short: cook them up.
-Stealth Machine
Muaziz with Auspex Skill, Rebecca, Jost Werner.
Pulse of the Canaille.
Any questions?
-Etrius the Innocent
Etrius, Skill Master, Soul Gem of Etrius, Return of Innocence, Horrific
Countenance.
Repeat until all others are dead. (Very expensive deck, though)
-Malk S&B without Malks
Arika, Etrius, Justine and Reverend Blackwood rocking the Malkavian way
and countless others
Michael Beer
Michael Beer wrote:
"
" -The magic artefact collectors:
"
" Tremere do NOTHING except getting out a Talbot's Chainsaw on a
famed
" vamp living in a Palatial Estate (both cards crafted with Magic of the
" Smith), Chantry and Huntingground and defending their position.
"
" Untap: Famed Vamp enters Torpor due to Chainsaw Damage, During Master
" Phase this vamp leaves Torpor using the Chantry and gain one blood
with
" Palatial Estate so that he does not need to hunt.
Impossible (I think): "At the beginning of your master phase" a ready
vamp with a Palatial Estate may gain 1 blood. The Chantry kicks in
"during your master phase": the timing is wrong.
L~R (quite pleased with the general idea, though: why not add
Heidelberg Castle, to get rid of hunting problems?)
In article <35607181...@leila.ping.de>,
Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> wrote:
>
> ber...@cco.caltech.edu wrote:
>
> > IMO, you didn't do anything horribly wrong here, other than picking
> > the
> > Tremere. In my experience, a straight Tremere aus/dom/tha deck will
> > do very
> > poorly in almost any environment. Adding a large number of
> > disciplineless
> > permanents will help, but it's still very difficult. I've personally
> > found it
> > next to impossible to build an effective Tremere deck. This is why
> > there's
> > such a long history of Tremere with celerity or Tremere with fortitude
> > decks.
> > Those decks, if done well, can whup ass, but once again, the
> > proportions are
> > tough.
> >
>
> !!!
>
> I don't believe it. Our local Tremere wins about 40% of all games with
> really different strategies.
>
> Some of them are:
>> -The magic artefact collectors:
>
> Tremere do NOTHING except getting out a Talbot's Chainsaw on a famed
> vamp living in a Palatial Estate (both cards crafted with Magic of the
> Smith), Chantry and Huntingground and defending their position.
>
I mentioned this, pointing out that it is difficult to do correctly. I left
out the Fame, but that's not the point. If you were to ignore the Chantry,
this deck could be done with any clan, not just Tremere. Fortitude would
probably work just as well with Rapid Healing. Magic of the Smith is a
useless card. People who use it swear by its effectiveness and quote all the
times that it has saved them. I say they'd have done better to simply include
more equipment and skip the MotS. It's a card to get around card limits and
nothing more.
> -Hunt and die
>
> Drain enemy vamps of their blood with whatever means nessessary. Then
> block their hunt, torporize'em and finish'em with Muaziz or Nephandus.
>
This deck is possible, but certainly not easy. There are easier ways to burn
vampires. Not to mention, if they have any sort of combat avoidance or damage
prevention you're screwed.
> -Braindead
>
> Bum's Rush, Thoughts Betrayed, Apparition, Theft of Vitae, Apparition,
> Apparition, Walk of Flame.
> In short: cook them up.
>
This doesn't work well at all. Thoughts Betrayed is getting cheesy and old.
And even with TB, anyone with more than 4 vampires out will outlast you.
Plus, you're certainly relying on a lot of Apportation there (Apparition is a
Chimerstry card, which I assume you're not using). This is basically the
classic Tremere, and without celerity or fortitude it just doesn't work.
> -Stealth Machine
>
> Muaziz with Auspex Skill, Rebecca, Jost Werner.
> Pulse of the Canaille.
> Any questions?
>
Once again, it's possible. But I don't see this being the game winning
strategy you suggest. Add some Legendary Vampires and you've got a good deck
concept, but certainly not unbeatable.
> -Etrius the Innocent
> Etrius, Skill Master, Soul Gem of Etrius, Return of Innocence, Horrific
> Countenance.
> Repeat until all others are dead. (Very expensive deck, though)
>
Return to Innocence is even more cheesy than TB. I refuse to consider any
deck that has RtI in it.
> -Malk S&B without Malks
> Arika, Etrius, Justine and Reverend Blackwood rocking the Malkavian way
>
You can do it easier with Malks.
Once again, I don't see any classic Tremere deck making much of a presence in
most environments. The Tremere are pretty cool in that they have lots of
options. Unlike the Nos, however, they can't claim superiority in any of
their areas. Tremere are best for odd theme decks and for broad-based
counter-everything decks.
-Chris
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <35608986...@opium.fr>, Lambach <rut...@opium.fr>
writes
>Michael Beer wrote:
>"
>" -The magic artefact collectors:
>"
>" Tremere do NOTHING except getting out a Talbot's Chainsaw on a
>famed
>" vamp living in a Palatial Estate (both cards crafted with Magic of the
>" Smith), Chantry and Huntingground and defending their position.
>">" Untap: Famed Vamp enters Torpor due to Chainsaw Damage, During Master
>" Phase this vamp leaves Torpor using the Chantry and gain one blood
>with
>" Palatial Estate so that he does not need to hunt.
>
>
> Impossible (I think): "At the beginning of your master phase" a ready
>vamp with a Palatial Estate may gain 1 blood. The Chantry kicks in
>"during your master phase": the timing is wrong.
He's not using the blood from the Palatial Estate to power the chantry
though. Since it's in his master phase, he has the blood in his minion
phase and so doesn't have to hunt.
--
James Coupe (Prince of Mercia) Change nospam to obeah to reply
Vampire: Elder Kindred Network
madnessnetwork.hexagon.net
ber...@cco.caltech.edu wrote:
> In article <35607181...@leila.ping.de>,> Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> wrote:
> >
> > -The magic artefact collectors:
> >
> > Tremere do NOTHING except getting out a Talbot's Chainsaw on a
> famed
> > vamp living in a Palatial Estate (both cards crafted with Magic of
> the
> > Smith), Chantry and Huntingground and defending their position.
> >> I mentioned this, pointing out that it is difficult to do correctly.
> I left
> out the Fame, but that's not the point. If you were to ignore the
> Chantry,
> this deck could be done with any clan, not just Tremere. Fortitude
> would
> probably work just as well with Rapid Healing.
Which is a +1 stealth action and fairly easy to be blocked. The Chantry
way to get out of torpor isunblockable and does not leave your minion
tapped.
> Magic of the Smith is a
> useless card. People who use it swear by its effectiveness and quote
> all the
> times that it has saved them. I say they'd have done better to simply
> include
> more equipment and skip the MotS. It's a card to get around card
> limits and
> nothing more.
>
It is a card to get the ONE equipment you NEED not when you draw it but
NOWat +3 stealth (using superior THA), not just at +1 stealth as a
normal equip action.
> > -Hunt and die
> >
> > Drain enemy vamps of their blood with whatever means nessessary.
> Then
> > block their hunt, torporize'em and finish'em with Muaziz or
> Nephandus.
> >
> This deck is possible, but certainly not easy. There are easier ways
> to burn
> vampires. Not to mention, if they have any sort of combat avoidance
> or damage
> prevention you're screwed.
>
Combat avoidance will work if you don't include Fast Reaction.
Prevention will not because Steal Blood effectsare not damage, thus
unpreventable.
> > -Braindead
> >
> > Bum's Rush, Thoughts Betrayed, Apparition, Theft of Vitae,
> Apparition,
> > Apparition, Walk of Flame.
> > In short: cook them up.
> >
> This doesn't work well at all. Thoughts Betrayed is getting cheesy
> and old.
It is the only measure to make Tremere Combat RELIABLE. Do you want all
other combatexcept potence based ones to be stuck? Its effect is really
strong, admitted, but since only
Immortal Grapple and Thoughts Betrayed can render combat strategies
reliable you shouldn't shame
players using it.
> And even with TB, anyone with more than 4 vampires out will outlast
> you.
perhaps not if you include some Ruthor's Hands too. And: There are still
some ALLIES.ALL Mages can bleed, Succubus can bleed. (I know, People
tend to forget Allies...)
> Plus, you're certainly relying on a lot of Apportation there
> (Apparition is a
> Chimerstry card, which I assume you're not using). This is basically
> the
> classic Tremere, and without celerity or fortitude it just doesn't
> work.
>
That depends on your opposition. Against brutal Brujah or Gangrel
combat, you might be right. But how often do you find these decks in
tournament environments?
> > -Stealth Machine
> >
> > Muaziz with Auspex Skill, Rebecca, Jost Werner.
> > Pulse of the Canaille.
> > Any questions?
> >
> Once again, it's possible. But I don't see this being the game
> winning
> strategy you suggest. Add some Legendary Vampires and you've got a
> good deck
> concept, but certainly not unbeatable.
>
If you dare to include some Wakes and Intercept, you can defend quite
yourself quite well.This one would be a S&B with defensive capabilities.
You could even use Majesty.
> > -Etrius the Innocent
> > Etrius, Skill Master, Soul Gem of Etrius, Return of Innocence,
> Horrific
> > Countenance.
> > Repeat until all others are dead. (Very expensive deck, though)
> >
> Return to Innocence is even more cheesy than TB. I refuse to consider
> any
> deck that has RtI in it.
>
This is your choice. I just wanted to point out some effective
strategies. Not argue about more or less cheesy ones.
> > -Malk S&B without Malks
> > Arika, Etrius, Justine and Reverend Blackwood rocking the Malkavian
> way
> >
> You can do it easier with Malks.
Yep. But vulnerable to Malkavian Dementia. But this can be done using
mostly Tremere, so I included it.
> Once again, I don't see any classic Tremere deck making much of a
> presence in
> most environments. The Tremere are pretty cool in that they have lots
> of
> options. Unlike the Nos, however, they can't claim superiority in any
> of
> their areas. Tremere are best for odd theme decks and for broad-based
>
> counter-everything decks.
>
In my opinion, Tremere are natural defenders anyway. If they can counter
anything or bounce stealthed bleeds to their prey they just don't need
such a strong offensive.
Michael Beer
ber...@cco.caltech.edu writes:
> I mentioned this, pointing out that it is difficult to do correctly. I left
> out the Fame, but that's not the point. If you were to ignore the Chantry,
> this deck could be done with any clan, not just Tremere. Fortitude would> probably work just as well with Rapid Healing. Magic of the Smith is a> useless card. People who use it swear by its effectiveness and quote all the
> times that it has saved them. I say they'd have done better to simply include
> more equipment and skip the MotS. It's a card to get around card limits and
> nothing more.
I don't necessarily agree with you. If you want to get a 2-equipment
combo into play, and you have, say, 12 slots for it in your deck, you
can include 6 of each of the 2 cards, or, say, 4 of each of the 2
cards, plus 4 Magic of the Smith. With the 6-6 distribution, your
chance of being able to make the combo with the first 2 cards you draw
(among the 12 slots) is 6/11, ie 55%. With the 4-4-4 distribution,
you will fail only if the first 2 you draw are two copies of either
card A or card B, so you will fail 2*4*3 times out of 12*11, and your
chance of success is 9/11, or 82%... this is a significant
increase. Overall, if you need a 2-card equipment combo fast, Magic of
the Smith _will_ help you make it more reliable.
Of course, changing this to 1 of card A, 1 of card B, and 10 Magic of
the Smith makes it even _more_ reliable (100% chance with the first 2
cards from the 12).
Not that I'm advocating overusing Magic of the Smith, but I just want
to point out that you don't need card limits to make card-fetching
effects useful. If you're using lots of unique equipment, it will even
be very useful, since each Magic will transform into the exact one
equipment you need, without your filling the deck with multiple copies
of unique cards.
>
> Once again, I don't see any classic Tremere deck making much of a presence in
> most environments. The Tremere are pretty cool in that they have lots of
> options. Unlike the Nos, however, they can't claim superiority in any of
> their areas. Tremere are best for odd theme decks and for broad-based
> counter-everything decks.
Well, Tremere are the absolute best at steal-blood strategies. Not
that it's a very viable concept, but a deck filled with Theft of Vitae
(and probably a lot of Apportations too) _will_ be a significant
nuisance to some combat-based decks, and Tremere have some significant
bleed potential too. Think of them as the Malks who fight back...
--
Philippe Duchon (duc...@labri.u-bordeaux.fr)
In article <6jqda8$gej$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <ber...@cco.caltech.edu> wrote:
>In article <35607181...@leila.ping.de>,
> Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> wrote:>> I don't believe it. Our local Tremere wins about 40% of all games with
>> really different strategies.>> Some of them are:>> -The magic artefact collectors:
[Magic of the Smith-driven Talbot's Chantry Fame yo-yo ubercheese]
>Magic of the Smith is a
>useless card. People who use it swear by its effectiveness and quote all the
>times that it has saved them. I say they'd have done better to simply include
>more equipment and skip the MotS. It's a card to get around card limits and
>nothing more.
I have to disagree with this assessment. At superior, MotS is +3 stealth;
plus, it tailors itself to the situation -- it's whatever equipment you
need it to be at the time. A Sport Bike is always a Sport Bike; a
MotS can be a Bike, IR Gogs, or whatever's in your deck that seems best.
This combination of versatility and added stealth make MotS a fine addition
to a Tremere equipment deck -- traditionally, Hawgs and IRGogs.
>> -Hunt and die
>>
>> Drain enemy vamps of their blood with whatever means nessessary. Then
>> block their hunt, torporize'em and finish'em with Muaziz or Nephandus.>This deck is possible, but certainly not easy. There are easier ways to burn
>vampires. Not to mention, if they have any sort of combat avoidance or damage
>prevention you're screwed.
I concur; a problem with weenie Seeds of Corruption/Cryptic Mission/Foul
Blood forced hunt decks is, not the combat avoidance (which would be
trouble for, say, tha/cel blurred Theft of Vitae combat), but the plethora
of ways to add blood to a minion (Hunting Grounds, Rack, Blood Doll)
without hunting. But the right mix is devilish tricky.
>> -Braindead>> Bum's Rush, Thoughts Betrayed, Apparition, Theft of Vitae, Apparition,
>> Apparition, Walk of Flame.
>> In short: cook them up.>This doesn't work well at all. Thoughts Betrayed is getting cheesy and old.>And even with TB, anyone with more than 4 vampires out will outlast you.>Plus, you're certainly relying on a lot of Apportation there (Apparition is a
>Chimerstry card, which I assume you're not using). This is basically the
>classic Tremere, and without celerity or fortitude it just doesn't work.
I'm not sure how Celerity adds that much to the Tremere that Apportation
and Movement of the Mind don't already take care of. Flash gives you one
maneuver; Apportation and Movement each give you one maneuver. Card for
card, that's maneuver parity with a Celerity deck. Okay, you get the
additional strikes, but maneuver-wise, you'll do just fine without.
>> -Stealth Machine>> Muaziz with Auspex Skill, Rebecca, Jost Werner.
>> Pulse of the Canaille.
>> Any questions?
Well, Jost isn't a Tremere, but that's a bit of a nitpick.
Plus, after the initial 1 stealth, what are you doing to get
through?
>Once again, it's possible. But I don't see this being the game winning
>strategy you suggest. Add some Legendary Vampires and you've got a good deck
>concept, but certainly not unbeatable.
Ya.
>> -Etrius the Innocent
>> Etrius, Skill Master, Soul Gem of Etrius, Return of Innocence, Horrific
>> Countenance.
>> Repeat until all others are dead. (Very expensive deck, though)>Return to Innocence is even more cheesy than TB. I refuse to consider any
>deck that has RtI in it.
Hey, I wrote that deck! Well, it could certainly have been independently
developed (Allah knows it's not particularly tricky), but I recall
posting it as an example of a broken deck under Golden Tenets -- which
wasn't possible before the advent of Ancient Hearts.
>> -Malk S&B without Malks
>> Arika, Etrius, Justine and Reverend Blackwood rocking the Malkavian way>You can do it easier with Malks.
Amen to that. A crypt with more than one IC in it is hella tricky to
do anyhow.
>Once again, I don't see any classic Tremere deck making much of a presence in
>most environments. The Tremere are pretty cool in that they have lots of
>options. Unlike the Nos, however, they can't claim superiority in any of
>their areas. Tremere are best for odd theme decks and for broad-based
>counter-everything decks.
Ya, I'd say that's pretty accurate, but some of those odd theme decks
can be pretty effective.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <6jtnod$976$1...@shell3.ba.best.com>,
Gomi no Sensei <go...@best.com> wrote:
>In article <6jqda8$gej$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <ber...@cco.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>>> -Hunt and die
>>>
>>> Drain enemy vamps of their blood with whatever means nessessary. Then
>>> block their hunt, torporize'em and finish'em with Muaziz or Nephandus.>>>This deck is possible, but certainly not easy. There are easier ways to burn
>>vampires. Not to mention, if they have any sort of combat avoidance or damage
>>prevention you're screwed.>
>I concur; a problem with weenie Seeds of Corruption/Cryptic Mission/Foul
>Blood forced hunt decks is, not the combat avoidance (which would be
>trouble for, say, tha/cel blurred Theft of Vitae combat), but the plethora
>of ways to add blood to a minion (Hunting Grounds, Rack, Blood Doll)
>without hunting. But the right mix is devilish tricky.
I've been thinking about making a deck like this, Probably with a bunch
of Society of Leopold, Smiling Jack, Vampiric Disease, and a touch
of Milicent smith. Anyone have any experience doing this? (I don't
recall seeing such a deck on the web anywhere). I'm curious if there's
any obvious combos I'm missing, and whether it's worth including assamites
for the Foul Blood...
--
/\ Jasper Phillips
/VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz
j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--.
* http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`