Question about a bizarre corner case.

Something ocurred to me that isn't covered on the RTR page and has never been discussed on the newsgroup. (that I could find, anyway) Can Clan Impersonation be used to make a vampire a Caitiff? My gut reaction is no, since Caitiff isn't properly considered a clan. If yes, and someone plays a Revealing the Sire on the new Caitiff, would taking an action to burn the Clan Impersonation also burn the effect of Revealing the Sire? Noal -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

> Can Clan Impersonation be used to make a vampire a Caitiff? > My gut reaction is no, since Caitiff isn't properly considered > a clan. If yes, and someone plays a Revealing the Sire on the > new Caitiff, would taking an action to burn the Clan Impersonation > also burn the effect of Revealing the Sire? Similar situation that I know can be created using current rulings: Say I use Malkavian Dementia to steal someone else's Malk until my next untap. I then play Clan Impersonation to make it a Nosferatu Antitribu. The player gets the vampire back on my untap, but then I play Unacceptable Appearance during my Master Phase to make him a Pander. Assuming I don't kill this vampire with an army of !Nossies, would the vampire have to take two actions to return to its original clan...one to remove the Appearance and one to remove the Clan Impersonation? [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald wrote in message <8br2jb$ll3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>... >Something ocurred to me that isn't covered on the RTR page and has never >been discussed on the newsgroup. (that I could find, anyway) > >Can Clan Impersonation be used to make a vampire a Caitiff? My gut >reaction is no, since Caitiff isn't properly considered a clan. > That's correct. Caitiff are clanless Camarilla vampires. Since they aren't a clan proper, you cannot Clan Impersonate into a Caitiff. >If yes, and someone plays a Revealing the Sire on the new Caitiff, would >taking an action to burn the Clan Impersonation also burn the effect of >Revealing the Sire? > I'm not certain I'm clear on the order of your example, but it is as follows; a Caitiff is the subject of a Revelation of the Sire, followed by a Clan Impersonation. If the Clan Impersonation was later burned, then the vampire would revert to the clan selected via the RotS, _not_ to it's previous Caitiff status. Hope this helps, Regards, R. David Zopf Atom Weaver V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC

Noal McDonald wrote: > > > Can Clan Impersonation be used to make a vampire a Caitiff? No. > > My gut reaction is no, since Caitiff isn't properly considered > > a clan. Correct. Clan Impersonation, like Consanguineous Boon, says "choose a clan". Since "Caitiff" is not a clan, it cannot be chosen. > Similar situation that I know can be created using current rulings: > > Say I use Malkavian Dementia to steal someone else's Malk until my next > untap. I then play Clan Impersonation to make it a Nosferatu Antitribu. > The player gets the vampire back on my untap, but then I play > Unacceptable Appearance during my Master Phase to make him a Pander. > > Assuming I don't kill this vampire with an army of !Nossies, would the > vampire have to take two actions to return to its original clan...one to > remove the Appearance and one to remove the Clan Impersonation? Two. As long as either of the two cards remained on him, he would not be considered part of his original clan, by the explicit card text of those two cards. By the most-recent-card-played rule: If he burns the Unacceptable Appearance first, he reverts to !Nos, by the Clan Impersonation. If he burns the Clan Impersonation first, he remains a Pander until the Unacceptable Appearance is burned, at which time he is considered to be a Malkavian again. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep

In article <8br5bj$p2e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > > > Can Clan Impersonation be used to make a vampire a Caitiff? > > My gut reaction is no, since Caitiff isn't properly considered > > a clan. If yes, and someone plays a Revealing the Sire on the > > new Caitiff, would taking an action to burn the Clan Impersonation > > also burn the effect of Revealing the Sire? The short answer is: no, you cannot have a vamp impersonating a Caitiff via Clan Impersonation, since Caitiff is not a Clan (you gut react is right above). For the second (unlikely) stat, the answer is again no, because even if you burn the Clan Imp card, by no means you burn the Revelation of the Sire's card (text reads: " put this card on the vampire"), so that vamp would remain a Caitiff (even if this is just speculation). > > Similar situation that I know can be created using current rulings: > > Say I use Malkavian Dementia to steal someone else's Malk until my next > untap. I then play Clan Impersonation to make it a Nosferatu Antitribu. > The player gets the vampire back on my untap, but then I play > Unacceptable Appearance during my Master Phase to make him a Pander. > > Assuming I don't kill this vampire with an army of !Nossies, would the > vampire have to take two actions to return to its original clan...one to > remove the Appearance and one to remove the Clan Impersonation? > > Again, no. The fact that you burn a card doesn't make you to burn another card (maybe on the same minion) with a similar effect. The net result above is: if you burn the Clan Impersonation first, the vamp is still considered a Pander (and not Malki) by the Un App, if you burn the Un App first, the vamp is still considered Noferatuanti. After you'll get burned all the concerned "clan changing" cards, then the Vamp will be considered again of its original clan. Regards. Aemilianus, Prince of Rome. [ quoted text not captured ]