[SPOILER] Kemintiri (Adv)

Kemintiri Follower of Set 10 Cap OBF PRE SER THA aus dom Advanced, Independent, Red List: +1 Stealth (Merged) Kemintiri has 3 votes (titled). She can play cards that require Camarilla, Ventrue, and/or a justicar title. Illus: Lawrence Snelly (not a Photoshop piece, BTW. Go Larry!!) http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/images/CardKMW06kem.jpg DaveZ Atom Weaver

I think that she will be chosen to command my brand new Free States Rant deck :]

"Papipo" <pap...@gmail.com> escribió en el mensaje news:1106584959.7...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > I think that she will be chosen to command my brand new Free States > Rant deck :] > Then add a ridiculous ammount of secure havens/sleep unseen/secret passage, because being a red list = easy to rush vamp. But it's nice. You can put in play basic, go anarch, and then merge to get an Anarch pseudo-justicar.

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Papipo wrote: > I think that she will be chosen to command my brand new Free States > Rant deck :] That's all you want to do with the Setite "justicar?" Call Protect Thine Own! Have her name a few Archons and Alastors! Make the Camarilla Fall, then block something with Second Tradition: Domain! Call Corruption's Purge? Well, maybe not. Judgment: Camarilla Segregation? Again, not the wisest choice. Legacy of Power! I think the winner is going to have to be Parity Shift. Looks like quite a good vampire. I wonder if the Red List rule will make her difficult or impossible to play. Matt Morgan

> Illus: Lawrence Snelly (not a Photoshop piece, BTW. Go Larry!!) Oh! Finally Lawrence began to use brushes again His photoshop portraits were really shi... ummm.. tasteless and inappropriate ;) And they look dated by now BTW, only his art prevented me from playing Setites :)

[ quoted text not captured ] It makes her very very rushable... Pack in those SCE and maneuver's honey. You're in for a bumpy ride. Her non-merged advanced version is kinda' weak... 11.5 points for a ten cap with red list? Ouch...

Matthew T. Morgan wrote: > On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Papipo wrote: > Make the Camarilla Fall, then block something with Second Tradition: > Domain! > you are almost as broken as josh ;-) stefan

[ quoted text not captured ] That's 12 points not 11.5. 10 points worth of disciplines and +1 stealth is worth 2 points. I agree that non-merged Advanced is kinda weak. Compare to Spider Killer who is also a 10-cap with 10 points of disciplines and +1 stealth. Kemintiri Advanced however gets Red Listed. So let's hope that there's a bright side to being Red List instead of it just being a giant target on your forehead (and making you a munchy target when you're in torpor). But really, it's her Merged special that is outstanding. Watch out! High Stakes here we come! ;) The downside is that a Ventrue rush deck will make Merged Kemintiri a very very sad panda. Hrothulf or Arika Assault Rifle will have a field day. First rush her with the Red List ability, Freak Drive, and then rush her with the drawback from her basic ability. :'(

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Screaming Vermillian wrote: > > Matthew T. Morgan wrote: >> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Papipo wrote: > >> Looks like quite a good vampire. I wonder if the Red List rule will > make >> her difficult or impossible to play. > > It makes her very very rushable... Pack in those SCE and maneuver's > honey. You're in for a bumpy ride. On the positive side, if you have some good defensive plan, it makes it more likely that those won't be wasted slots. Probably the best way to do it is bring up the base version, play Secure Haven and then merge. As long as the Haven doesn't go away you should be safe (barring an intercept/Amaranth deck, I guess). > Her non-merged advanced version is kinda' weak... 11.5 points for a ten > cap with red list? Ouch... I thought +1 stealth was a 2 point ability. Anyway, she's obviously designed to be merged. The original Kemintiri is pretty crappy as well. Matt Morgan

Deckbuilding to merge Kementiri should be significantly easier than using the advanced vamps we've seen before now, since you'll need fewer copies of each version of her in your crypt. She or another of your FoS can play Summon the Serpent to retrieve whichever version you're missing. With an Info Highway in play, you can move the 1 blood from StS to your pool and use it to pay to merge her in the same turn. That's still a high cost in actions, transfers and blood, of course, but it's better than fishing for half the game. I'd suppose most decks that want to use merged Kementiri would use several copies of her ADV version and just one of her base, since +1 stealth is so useful. Screaming Vermillian wrote: > Her non-merged advanced version is kinda' weak... 11.5 points for a ten > cap with red list? Ouch... +1 stealth on all actions is worth at least 2; compare her to Spider-Killer or Cyscek. (I'd say Aristotle is undercosted.) Personally, I'm drooling over a SER minion with +1 stealth. Too bad that using Temptation to untap her frequently would leave her low on blood and vulnerable to Red List rushes. However, Red List might not be a net disadvantage for decks built around Red List minions. What if there are powerful Red List only cards not unlike the cards for Anarchs and Black Hand vampires? We'll have to see the rest of the set before we can judge.

Matthew T. Morgan wrote: > That's all you want to do with the Setite "justicar?" > > Call Protect Thine Own! Play Fall of the Camarilla, THEN call PTO in a Closed Session. No vamps will be able to vote. Knock enough counters off Wormwood and nobody will be safe.

echia...@yahoo.com wrote: > Screaming Vermillian wrote: > > Matthew T. Morgan wrote: > > > On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Papipo wrote: > > > > > Looks like quite a good vampire. I wonder if the Red List rule > > > will make > > > her difficult or impossible to play. > > > > It makes her very very rushable... Pack in those SCE and maneuver's > > honey. You're in for a bumpy ride. See below. > > Her non-merged advanced version is kinda' weak... 11.5 points for a > ten > > cap with red list? Ouch... > > The downside is that a Ventrue rush deck will make Merged Kemintiri a > very very sad panda. Hrothulf or Arika Assault Rifle will have a field > day. First rush her with the Red List ability, Freak Drive, and then > rush her with the drawback from her basic ability. :'( If ever there was a vampire to make great use out of Sleep Unseen, Kemintiri's it. Without superior AUS, no basic-flaw rush, no Red List rush, no nothing. Hrothulf or Arika Assualt Rifle will sit there unable to do a stinkin thing, as will a whole lot of common combat decks. You're going to have to rush her FAST, before she gets a chance to act. (Though Tariq still gets to eat her like popcorn.) -John Flournoy

Why not untap her with Rutor's Hand? Regards, Patrick Columbus, OH

"shawn stanley" <sta...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:colav05do6vntu4br...@4ax.com... > On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:53:29 -0600, "Matthew T. Morgan" > >Make the Camarilla Fall, then block something with Second Tradition: > >Domain! > > hang on how can she do that? Once you play Fall of the Camarilla, > there is no more Camarilla. How can she play cards that require a > justicar title when there is no such thing as justicars anymore? Card text. She can play cards that require a justicar. Just because every justicar's title is inert while there is no Camarilla doesn't mean that Second Tradition no longer requires a justicar (or prince). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:53:29 -0600, "Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote: >On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Papipo wrote: > >> I think that she will be chosen to command my brand new Free States >> Rant deck :] > >That's all you want to do with the Setite "justicar?" > >Call Protect Thine Own! > >Have her name a few Archons and Alastors! > >Make the Camarilla Fall, then block something with Second Tradition: >Domain! hang on how can she do that? Once you play Fall of the Camarilla, [ quoted text not captured ]

>But it's nice. You can put in play basic, go anarch, and then merge to get >an Anarch pseudo-justicar. Heck, you could manage that in a single master phase if you get a good draw - Galaric's followed by Gift of Experience. Just don't forget to go Anarch one way or another BEFORE you merge her. Otherwise you're kind of stuck. Eric Simon Prince of Chicago

Matthew T. Morgan wrote: > On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, Papipo wrote: > Looks like quite a good vampire. I wonder if the Red List rule will make > her difficult or impossible to play. and Screaming Vermillian responded: It makes her very very rushable... Pack in those SCE and maneuver's honey. You're in for a bumpy ride. Her non-merged advanced version is kinda' weak... 11.5 points for a ten cap with red list? Ouch... Well, why not try to build a THA - SER - Anathema based deck ? I believe that it will be very fun to play... with PRE and Ventrue Headquarters, it shouldn't be difficult to vote them. Additionaly, use Temptations to tempt rushers and votes George

geor...@for.auth.gr wrote: > Well, why not try to build a THA - SER - Anathema based deck ? > I believe that it will be very fun to play... > > with PRE and Ventrue Headquarters, it shouldn't be difficult > to vote them. > Additionaly, use Temptations to tempt rushers and votes > > > George Read her special. It doesn't allow you (the Methusaleh) to play Ventrue cards (compare to Tatiana's special). Thus you'll need an actual Ventrue to play Ventrue Headquarters (Merged Kemintiri just won't do). In terms of Ventrue cards, Kemintiri's ability is good for Elder Kindred Network, High Stakes, and Political Ally. That's it.

echia...@yahoo.com wrote: > In terms of Ventrue cards, Kemintiri's ability is good for Elder > Kindred Network, High Stakes, and Political Ally. That's it. And no, she can't Summon a Political Ally.

echiang wrote: Read her special. It doesn't allow you (the Methusaleh) to play Ventrue cards (compare to Tatiana's special). Thus you'll need an actual Ventrue to play Ventrue Headquarters (Merged Kemintiri just won't do). In terms of Ventrue cards, Kemintiri's ability is good for Elder Kindred Network, High Stakes, and Political Ally. That's it. Yeah, you are right. At first when i read the special i noticed that it was different than Tatiana's and it didn't allow you to play cards that require Ventrue. But at the time i was writing my post i was careless and wrongly mentioned Ventrue Headquarters. so, no problem reading the special, it was just me the careless :) George

<geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message news:1106660343....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > echiang wrote: > > > > > Read her special. It doesn't allow you (the Methusaleh) to play Ventrue > cards (compare to Tatiana's special). Thus you'll need an actual > Ventrue to play Ventrue Headquarters (Merged Kemintiri just won't do). > > In terms of Ventrue cards, Kemintiri's ability is good for Elder > Kindred Network, High Stakes, and Political Ally. That's it. > > > Yeah, you are right. At first when i read the special i noticed that > it was different than Tatiana's and it didn't allow you to play cards > that require Ventrue. ? Now I guess I'm not reading it right, because it looks like she can to me: This; "She can play cards that require Camarilla, Ventrue, and/or a justicar title." is equal to this; "She can play cards that require Camarilla. She can play cards that require Ventrue. She can play cards that require a justicar title." Which is different from Tatiana's special, but probably only for space considerations. No? DaveZ Atom Weaver

"David Zopf" <david...@snet.net> wrote in message news:ygsJd.21758$by5...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com... > > No? > Heh. Disregard. I got it. Not enough coffee yet. Sorry... DaveZ Atom Weaver

On 24 Jan 2005 10:55:09 -0800, Emmit Svenson <emmits...@hotmail.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] But make sure you have the egde before you play Closed Session. -- Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: But make sure you have the egde before you play Closed Session. --- does the vote provided by the political action count as being cast by the acting vampire? I don't think it does, but couldn't find any ruling. obviously you still need to get the edge away from any disagreeable methuselah :-)

that´s why you can use the anarch bag (sorry, don´t remember the name of the card right now. equipment only usable by anarch, iirc, the anarch plays one blood to cancel a d action against him) !!!! she´s ten cap, so she can spare some blood to not risk getting rushed (S:CE can get countered by several cards, as we all know well enough)....

[ quoted text not captured ] Body Bag burns two blood, but could work.

<jnew...@difsol.com> escribió en el mensaje news:1106744927....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Not in the case of a marked red list "Ok, I use a MPA to declare free hunt on Kemintiri" vamp#1 rushes. You burn 2 blood to prevent, ok Vamp#2rushes. You burn 2 blood, ok vamp#3 rushes... How long do you think you'll last until beaten to torpor???? I think the best way is combining secure haven, a generous amount of sleep unseen, and free defensive cards (swallowed&staredown?). That or being a combat monster, of course. Smiling Tom

> Not in the case of a marked red list > > "Ok, I use a MPA to declare free hunt on Kemintiri" > vamp#1 rushes. You burn 2 blood to prevent, ok > Vamp#2rushes. You burn 2 blood, ok > vamp#3 rushes... > > How long do you think you'll last until beaten to torpor???? > > I think the best way is combining secure haven, a generous amount of sleep > unseen, and free defensive cards (swallowed&staredown?). That or being a > combat monster, of course. > > Smiling Tom Magic of the Smith for a Hand of Conrad and stack on Typhonic Beasts when anyone rushes you :) (and taste back the blood you spend - or have a Path of Typhon to make them free - or both). Also lets her play Iron Glare at both levels. John

That or > being a > > combat monster, of course. > > > > Smiling Tom > > Magic of the Smith for a Hand of Conrad and stack on Typhonic Beasts > when anyone rushes you :) (and taste back the blood you spend - or have > a Path of Typhon to make them free - or both). > Also lets her play Iron Glare at both levels. > > John > Jeje. Then we can go round to that option: Rutor's Hand. Alastor+eye of hazimel: stack typhonics+inmortal+blood furys...2 rushes per turn (alastor+Eye)

> Jeje. Then we can go round to that option: Rutor's Hand. Alastor+eye of > hazimel: stack typhonics+inmortal+blood furys...2 rushes per turn > (alastor+Eye) Heh. Too bad she can't draw out the beast. I guess Apportation/Swallowed by the Night can help her keep it close. John

[ quoted text not captured ] Use the Summoning to get an Infernal Familiar, and you can play DotB (as well as lots of other things.) If you really want to be absurdly card-intensive. > John -John Flournoy

Smiling Tom wrote: > Alastor+eye of > hazimel: stack typhonics+inmortal+blood furys...2 rushes per turn > (alastor+Eye) Alas, Kementiri cannot be an Alastor without first Clan Impersonating, Into the Fire + Out of the Frying Pan, or Invitation Accepted.

"Emmit Svenson" <emmits...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1106858990.4...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Or merging and then calling it herself (as a Camarilla justicar). [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:35t2nsF...@individual.net... > "Emmit Svenson" <emmits...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1106858990.4...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > > > > Smiling Tom wrote: > > > Alastor+eye of > > > hazimel: stack typhonics+inmortal+blood furys...2 rushes per turn > > > (alastor+Eye) > > > > Alas, Kementiri cannot be an Alastor without first Clan Impersonating, > > Into the Fire + Out of the Frying Pan, or Invitation Accepted. > > Or merging and then calling it herself (as a Camarilla justicar). Well, she can *call* it then, but she can't *be* an Alastor (named by the vote card) while she's still "actually" an Independent vampire. Unless you're counting that as part of "playing cards that require Camarilla"? Josh kemin to ya

LSJ wrote: > "Emmit Svenson" <emmits...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1106858990.4...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > >>Smiling Tom wrote: >> >>>Alastor+eye of >>>hazimel: stack typhonics+inmortal+blood furys...2 rushes per turn >>>(alastor+Eye) >> >>Alas, Kementiri cannot be an Alastor without first Clan Impersonating, >>Into the Fire + Out of the Frying Pan, or Invitation Accepted. > > > Or merging and then calling it herself (as a Camarilla justicar). Mmmm? Is she actually treated as a Ventrue/Camarilla/Justicar while using cards that require it (similar to allies playing cards "as a vampire")? Can she call Alastor/Archon/Camarilla Exemplary/etc and name herself? Tangentially, what happens if she calls a Praxis Seizure (successfully)? Previously, I would've thought this would lead to her gaining the title of Prince, losing her 3 votes, and then losing the Prince title because she was of the wrong sect. But now I'm not sure... --Colin McGuigan

> Mmmm? Is she actually treated as a Ventrue/Camarilla/Justicar while > using cards that require it (similar to allies playing cards "as a > vampire")? > > Can she call Alastor/Archon/Camarilla Exemplary/etc and name herself? > Yes, the card will treat her as one for the duration of the referendum. > Tangentially, what happens if she calls a Praxis Seizure (successfully)? > Previously, I would've thought this would lead to her gaining the > title of Prince, losing her 3 votes, and then losing the Prince title > because she was of the wrong sect. But now I'm not sure... > You are correct, the Praxis is called, she gains the title, and then ceases to be under an effect treating her as Camarilla, losing the title.

Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote: >>Mmmm? Is she actually treated as a Ventrue/Camarilla/Justicar while >>using cards that require it (similar to allies playing cards "as a >>vampire")? >> >>Can she call Alastor/Archon/Camarilla Exemplary/etc and name herself? >> > Yes, the card will treat her as one for the duration of the referendum. Correct. Any card a minion plays "as" something (as a vampire, as a justicar, as an ally, as a Sabbat, etc.) treats that minion as that thing (in as far as being played is involved -- like the referendum portion of playing a political action card is). >>Tangentially, what happens if she calls a Praxis Seizure (successfully)? >> Previously, I would've thought this would lead to her gaining the >>title of Prince, losing her 3 votes, and then losing the Prince title >>because she was of the wrong sect. But now I'm not sure... > > You are correct, the Praxis is called, she gains the title, and then > ceases to be under an effect treating her as Camarilla, losing the title. Her Prince title would replace the other title and would then go inert until she changes sects to Camarilla, yes. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: > > Alas, Kementiri cannot be an Alastor without first Clan Impersonating, > > Into the Fire + Out of the Frying Pan, or Invitation Accepted. > > Or merging and then calling it herself (as a Camarilla justicar). So if she calls a vote such as Alastor that requires her to be Camarilla or a justicar, she is considered Camarilla or a Justicar for the purposes of naming the targets of the referendum? If so, would she also be Independant (or Sabbat, if she had changed sects) for the purpose of naming targets, or does she temporarily lose her former sect? Would she also be considered Camarilla or a Justicar for the purposes of votes cast in the resulting referendum? If she takes an action that requires Ventrue, does she stop being a Follower of Set for the duration of the action? If she is blocked when taking an action that requires Camarilla, Justicar or Ventrue, is she Camarilla, a Justicar or Ventrue in the resulting combat? If she plays a reaction that requires Camarilla, Justicar or Ventrue, is she Camarilla, Justicar or Ventrue for the duration of the action and in any resulting combat? Sorry about the barrage of questions, but since her wording is "may play cards that require [X].", I have to determine if the function is different if it's different from "may play cards that require [X] *as if she were* [X].", which is Tatiyana's wording. Are they functionally identical?

Emmit Svenson wrote: > LSJ wrote: > >>>Alas, Kementiri cannot be an Alastor without first Clan > > Impersonating, > >>>Into the Fire + Out of the Frying Pan, or Invitation Accepted. >> >>Or merging and then calling it herself (as a Camarilla justicar). > > > So if she calls a vote such as Alastor that requires her to be > Camarilla or a justicar, she is considered Camarilla or a Justicar for > the purposes of naming the targets of the referendum? > > If so, would she also be Independant (or Sabbat, if she had changed > sects) for the purpose of naming targets, or does she temporarily lose > her former sect? You don't lose sect, you change sect. If you're Camarilla, you're not Independent (a sub-set of non-Camarilla). > Would she also be considered Camarilla or a Justicar for the purposes > of votes cast in the resulting referendum? No. But moot, since she has three votes. > If she takes an action that requires Ventrue, does she stop being a > Follower of Set for the duration of the action? A vampire has only one clan. She doesn't change clans, however. It's just the card she plays that treats her otherwise. See also "ally may play cards as a vampire" yet doesn't "turn into a vampire" for the action. This will be refered to as "Same" in subsequent answers. > If she is blocked when taking an action that requires Camarilla, > Justicar or Ventrue, is she Camarilla, a Justicar or Ventrue in the > resulting combat? Same. > If she plays a reaction that requires Camarilla, Justicar or Ventrue, > is she Camarilla, Justicar or Ventrue for the duration of the action > and in any resulting combat? Same. > Sorry about the barrage of questions, but since her wording is "may > play cards that require [X].", I have to determine if the function is > different if it's different from "may play cards that require [X] *as > if she were* [X].", which is Tatiyana's wording. Are they functionally > identical? Yes. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > Correct. Any card a minion plays "as" something (as a vampire, as > a justicar, as an ally, as a Sabbat, etc.) treats that minion > as that thing (in as far as being played is involved -- like the > referendum portion of playing a political action card is). But Kementiri doesn't play "as"--or at least that clause does not appear on her preview card. "She may play cards that require Camarilla, Ventrue, or a Justicar title." Assuming she plays a card "as" a Justicar, does she have a Justicar title's votes in place of her own votes for the duration of the referendum? For example, if she had become a Prince or a Liason, would she still have 3 votes from the title?

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:LXeKd.32149$8u5....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote: > >>Mmmm? Is she actually treated as a Ventrue/Camarilla/Justicar while > >>using cards that require it (similar to allies playing cards "as a > >>vampire")? > >> > >>Can she call Alastor/Archon/Camarilla Exemplary/etc and name herself? > >> > > Yes, the card will treat her as one for the duration of the referendum. > > Correct. Any card a minion plays "as" something (as a vampire, as > a justicar, as an ally, as a Sabbat, etc.) treats that minion > as that thing (in as far as being played is involved -- like the > referendum portion of playing a political action card is). I'm slightly surprised by this, because Kemintiri Advanced's card text doesn't use the word "as". It says that "she can play cards that require Camarilla, Ventrue, and/or a justicar title" - not that she plays the cards as if she *were* those things, just that she can play cards that have those requirements. You're saying that's equivalent to the text on allies and such specifying that they play cards "as a vampire of capacity X"? It might have been more intuitive to use the same template, if so. :-) Josh kemintutu, the doubly evil justicar

Thanks for the prompt and comprehensive answers to my Kemintiri questions. I just want to make sure I understand: LSJ wrote: > Emmit Svenson wrote: > > Would she also be considered Camarilla or a Justicar for the purposes > > of votes cast in the resulting referendum? > > No. But moot, since she has three votes. So if she calls a Cam-only vote like Justicar Retribution and then plays Closed Session, she would not be able to vote in the resulting referendum, because Closed Session does not require a Camarilla vampire?

Joshua Duffin wrote: > I'm slightly surprised by this, because Kemintiri Advanced's card text > doesn't use the word "as"....It might > have been more intuitive to use the same template... My guess is that they ran out of room. That's a lot of copy on her.

> So if she calls a Cam-only vote like Justicar Retribution and then > plays Closed Session, she would not be able to vote in the resulting > referendum, because Closed Session does not require a Camarilla > vampire? > Correct. The card thinks she's Camarilla, the referendum does not.

Joshua Duffin wrote: > such specifying that they play cards "as a vampire of capacity X"? It might > have been more intuitive to use the same template, if so. :-) If they had the same text space with which to work, you might be right. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

Emmit Svenson wrote: > LSJ wrote: > >>Correct. Any card a minion plays "as" something (as a vampire, as >>a justicar, as an ally, as a Sabbat, etc.) treats that minion >>as that thing (in as far as being played is involved -- like the >>referendum portion of playing a political action card is). > > > But Kementiri doesn't play "as"--or at least that clause does not > appear on her preview card. "She may play cards that require Camarilla, > Ventrue, or a Justicar title." She does, otherwise she wouldn't meet the requirements. > Assuming she plays a card "as" a Justicar, does she have a Justicar > title's votes in place of her own votes for the duration of the > referendum? For example, if she had become a Prince or a Liason, would > she still have 3 votes from the title? Still no. [ quoted text not captured ]

Emmit Svenson wrote: > So if she calls a Cam-only vote like Justicar Retribution and then > plays Closed Session, she would not be able to vote in the resulting > referendum, because Closed Session does not require a Camarilla > vampire? She's a Justicar as far as the Closed Session is concerned, since she played it as a Justicar. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > Emmit Svenson wrote: > > So if she calls a Cam-only vote like Justicar Retribution and then > > plays Closed Session, she would not be able to vote in the resulting > > referendum, because Closed Session does not require a Camarilla > > vampire? > > She's a Justicar as far as the Closed Session is concerned, since > she played it as a Justicar. But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct?

Emmit Svenson wrote: > But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is > concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct? It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot be the former save that you are the latter). [ quoted text not captured ]

>It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot >be the former save that you are the latter). Hokay. So let me just make sure I understand this. What it sounds like is that each card and its effects check what Kemintiri is *in isolation* from other cards and effects. So my merged, anarch Kemintiri could call a Free States Rant (or a Parity Shift) and then make it a Closed Session, and then add a Rant on top of that. Not that this particular combination would be very useful, but she could do it, right? And she herself could burn a blood under Rant, but no other Anarchs would actually get to vote because of the Closed Session. Is that right? Eric Simon Prince of Chicago

vol...@yahoo.com wrote: > Hokay. So let me just make sure I understand this. What it sounds > like is that each card and its effects check what Kemintiri is *in > isolation* from other cards and effects. The ones she plays as something treat her as that something. Everything else treats her (and everything else) as what they are. > So my merged, anarch Kemintiri could call a Free States Rant (or a > Parity Shift) and then make it a Closed Session, and then add a Rant on > top of that. Not that this particular combination would be very > useful, but she could do it, right? And she herself could burn a blood > under Rant, but no other Anarchs would actually get to vote because of > the Closed Session. Is that right? Correct. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:7DhKd.32622$8u5....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Emmit Svenson wrote: > > But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is > > concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct? > > It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot > be the former save that you are the latter). This becomes rather mind-bending when she's playing Closed Session while Fall of the Camarilla is in play. There are no Camarilla vampires, and Camarilla vampires are considered Independent, yet she can vote because Closed Session treats her as a Camarilla justicar... though as a Camarilla justicar she would be Independent and not a justicar at all. I think I do understand how you're saying this effect works, but it's still kind of extraordinary, so for certainty's sake: If merged Kemintiri plays Judgement: Camarilla Segregation (and is your only "non-Camarilla" vampire in play), the J:CS will treat her as a Camarilla justicar, and therefore you will not have to burn a pool during your untap phase, correct? If she calls the vote Ventrue Justicar, since the card itself treats her as Ventrue justicar, she'll both get the extra vote in the referendum and can be named as the new justicar, correct? (Though if she does become Ventrue justicar, after the referendum her card text of "Independent" will make the title inactive unless she becomes "really" Ventrue? Even though the card she played to become Ventrue justicar treats her as Camarilla "forever"?) What if she had a Writ of Acceptance and called the Ventrue Justicar vote to become the Ventrue justicar? Will the title then become inactive after the referendum because she's the wrong clan, even though the Ventrue Justicar card continues to think she's Ventrue? How is this situation - where the card thinks she's Ventrue and wants her to be justicar, but the game rules can see that she's really not and can't be - different from her playing Closed Session, where again, the card thinks she's a Camarilla Justicar and wants to let her vote in the referendum, but the game rules "could" see that she's really not and prohibit her from voting? Somehow this is reminding me of "Vesuvan Doppelganger" rulings from Magic... :-) Josh sunshine almost always blows my mind

Joshua Duffin wrote: > This becomes rather mind-bending when she's playing Closed Session while > Fall of the Camarilla is in play. There are no Camarilla vampires, and True. And she is not one (except in regards to the cards she plays as one). > Camarilla vampires are considered Independent, yet she can vote because True again. And since she is not one, she is not affected by the "you are Indy" effect of FotC. > Closed Session treats her as a Camarilla justicar... though as a Camarilla > justicar she would be Independent and not a justicar at all. If she were a Camarilla justicar, which she's not. > I think I do understand how you're saying this effect works, but it's still > kind of extraordinary, so for certainty's sake: > > If merged Kemintiri plays Judgement: Camarilla Segregation (and is your only > "non-Camarilla" vampire in play), the J:CS will treat her as a Camarilla > justicar, and therefore you will not have to burn a pool during your untap > phase, correct? No. The card in play doesn't remember how she played it. See all the "ally as a vampire" rulings on cards in play. > If she calls the vote Ventrue Justicar, since the card itself treats her as > Ventrue justicar, she'll both get the extra vote in the referendum and can > be named as the new justicar, correct? (Though if she does become Ventrue > justicar, after the referendum her card text of "Independent" will make the > title inactive unless she becomes "really" Ventrue? Even though the card > she played to become Ventrue justicar treats her as Camarilla "forever"?) As per the earlier cam-title-gainer, she loses her title (3 votes title) when she gains a Camarilla title and then the Camarilla title goes inert until she changes sects to Camarilla. > What if she had a Writ of Acceptance and called the Ventrue Justicar vote to > become the Ventrue justicar? Will the title then become inactive after the > referendum because she's the wrong clan, even though the Ventrue Justicar > card continues to think she's Ventrue? How is this situation - where the It goes inert exactly because the Ventrue Justicar card doesn't continue to think she's Ventrue. She has the title and it is inert because she isn't Ventrue. 1) Ventrue Justicar is not in play, so it doesn't "think" anything. 2) If it were in play, it would still fall under the "in play" rulings. > card thinks she's Ventrue and wants her to be justicar, but the game rules > can see that she's really not and can't be - different from her playing > Closed Session, where again, the card thinks she's a Camarilla Justicar and > wants to let her vote in the referendum, but the game rules "could" see that > she's really not and prohibit her from voting? The effect of the card play vs. the card being in play. > Somehow this is reminding me of "Vesuvan Doppelganger" rulings from Magic... > :-) If you like. It reminds me of the "ally as a vampire" rulings from VTES. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:j2hKd.101572$w62....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... >> Emmit Svenson wrote: > > > >>Correct. Any card a minion plays "as" something (as a vampire, as > >>a justicar, as an ally, as a Sabbat, etc.) treats that minion > >>as that thing (in as far as being played is involved -- like the > >>referendum portion of playing a political action card is). > > > > > > But Kementiri doesn't play "as"--or at least that clause does not > > appear on her preview card. "She may play cards that require Camarilla, > > Ventrue, or a Justicar title." > > LSJ wrote > > She does, otherwise she wouldn't meet the requirements. > naturaly :) >> Emmit Svenson wrote: > > Assuming she plays a card "as" a Justicar, does she have a Justicar > > title's votes in place of her own votes for the duration of the > > referendum? For example, if she had become a Prince or a Liason, would > > she still have 3 votes from the title? > > LSJ wrote > > Still no. > I have some questions that will help me understand EXACTLY how this works: What happens if Keminti becomes e.g. a Sabbat Cardinal and calls an Anathema ? I believe that the following things happen (correct me if i am wrong): 1. She plays it as a Cammy Justicar 2. During the referendum she is treated as a Sabbat Cardinal and can vote, right ? (i mean the Cardinal title is not temporarily suspended during the referendum, just because she played Anathema as a Cammy, right ?) 3. If she plays a Closed Session, she can vote (as Closed Session thinks she is a cammy), but she can't cast the 3 cardinal votes (as her sabbat title is temporarily inactive for purposes of voting in the closed session, right ?), though she can gain votes from e.g. Bewitching Oration and cast them as she is regarded a Cammy vampire for purposes of voting under CS, right ? 4. if she plays a Closed Session and a Private Audience, what happens ???? i believe that she won't be able to cast votes at all, correct ? I believe that this happens, becasue when she tries to vote as a Cammy PA stops her and the other way around... right ? Finaly, her inherent 3 votes comes from a title, but this title is not tied to her independent status, correct ? So, she can vote if she plays a closed session. i mean, closed session thinks she is a Cammy, but she will still have access to her inherent 3 votes as a Cammy, too... correct ? George

tzimisce_dragon wrote: > > I have some questions that will help me understand EXACTLY how this works: > > What happens if Keminti becomes e.g. a Sabbat Cardinal and calls an Anathema > ? > I believe that the following things happen (correct me if i am wrong): > > 1. She plays it as a Cammy Justicar Yes. > 2. During the referendum she is treated as a Sabbat Cardinal and > can vote, right ? (i mean the Cardinal title is not temporarily > suspended > during the referendum, just because she played Anathema as a Cammy, right ?) Correct. > 3. If she plays a Closed Session, she can vote (as Closed Session thinks she > is a cammy), but she can't cast the 3 cardinal votes (as her sabbat title is > temporarily inactive for purposes of voting in the closed session, right ?), > though she can gain votes from e.g. Bewitching Oration and cast them as > she is regarded a Cammy vampire for purposes of voting under CS, right ? She can vote, so she can cast her three votes (plus any others she gains). In fact, if she votes, she has to cast her three votes. > 4. if she plays a Closed Session and a Private Audience, what happens ???? > i believe that she won't be able to cast votes at all, correct ? I > believe that > this happens, becasue when she tries to vote as a Cammy PA stops her and > the other way around... right ? Closed Session she plays allows her to vote. Private Audience she plays allows her to vote. Neither prohibit her from voting, so she can vote. > Finaly, her inherent 3 votes comes from a title, but this title is not > tied to > her independent status, correct ? So, she can vote if she plays a closed > session. > i mean, closed session thinks she is a Cammy, but she will still have access > to her > inherent 3 votes as a Cammy, too... correct ? Moot from above, but yes. [ quoted text not captured ]

>> tzimisce_dragon wrote: >> >> If she becomes a Sabbat Cardinal... >> > > 3. If she plays a Closed Session, she can vote (as Closed Session thinks she > > is a cammy), but she can't cast the 3 cardinal votes (as her sabbat title is > > temporarily inactive for purposes of voting in the closed session, right ?), > > though she can gain votes from e.g. Bewitching Oration and cast them as > > she is regarded a Cammy vampire for purposes of voting under CS, right ? > >"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > > She can vote, so she can cast her three votes (plus any others she gains). > In fact, if she votes, she has to cast her three votes. > She becomes a Cardinal, she loses her inherent 3votes title and instead gets the Cardinal title that worths 3 votes. So, when she is trying to vote under the Closed Session (that she played) limitation (non camarilla cannot vote) she is considered Camarilla so naturaly (imo) she cannot cast her 3 Cardinal votes, as her Cardinal title is supressed by the fact that closed session regards her as Camarilla to let her vote. Thus she can only casts votes she gets from modifiers, that's how i used to believe that it works... But now, If i read you correctly you mean that: Closed Session just checks if she can vote, it thinks that Kemintiri is camarilla and lets her vote, when she votes she isn't considered a Cammy and can cast her Cardinal votes freely, right ? This means that Closed Session does not "filter" the votes, does not check the origin and stops the non-camarilla ones. It just checks who can vote... right ? It is like a guy standing outside the doors of the referendum building, who does not let the non-Cammys get in, Kemintiri gets through tricking the bully and after getting in the building, she isn't checked again and can cast her votes freely :P It seems that Camarilla security is not so good :P (i am just trying to understand how it works, i believe that i got it) >> tzimisce_dragon wrote: >> > > 4. if she plays a Closed Session and a Private Audience, what happens ???? > > i believe that she won't be able to cast votes at all, correct ? I > > believe that > > this happens, becasue when she tries to vote as a Cammy PA stops her and > > the other way around... right ? > >"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > > Closed Session she plays allows her to vote. > Private Audience she plays allows her to vote. > Neither prohibit her from voting, so she can vote. > Yes, you are right on this, i should have though it, i understand now. CS thinks she is Camarilla PA knows that she is sabbat so, none of these limit her, as they check seperately once. If they were always "on" checking, then when she was trying to vote as Camarilla PA would stop her and when she was trying to vote as a Sabbat, CS would stop her. But it is like 2 guys standing outside... :P They both let her get in.... :P stupid Sabbat and Camarilla security guys :P George

interesting, she can actually get the cardinal title quite easily: - go sabbat (into the fire) - call cardinal benediction on herself (camarilla vamps can't vote) - play closed session (non-sabbat vampires can't vote)

"tzimisce_dragon" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message news:ctdhqt$rvs$1...@nic.grnet.gr... > If i read you correctly you mean that: Closed Session just checks if she can > vote, it > thinks that Kemintiri is camarilla and lets her vote, when she votes she > isn't considered > a Cammy and can cast her Cardinal votes freely, right ? > > This means that Closed Session does not "filter" the votes, does not check > the origin > and stops the non-camarilla ones. It just checks who can vote... right ? Right. Card text: "Non-Camarilla vampires cannot vote on the current referendum." -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

<de...@hell.is> wrote in message news:1106922950.6...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Or use Into the Fire + Regent, since she's already a big target. :-) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > Or use Into the Fire + Regent, since she's already a big target. :-) I did think about that... forgot that 'only' sabbat can rush the regent... *packs 2nd trad, obedience, secure havens, ...* ;-)

In message <XrjKd.102334$w62....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> writes: >Joshua Duffin wrote: >> I think I do understand how you're saying this effect works, but it's still >> kind of extraordinary, so for certainty's sake: >> If merged Kemintiri plays Judgement: Camarilla Segregation (and is >>your only >> "non-Camarilla" vampire in play), the J:CS will treat her as a Camarilla >> justicar, and therefore you will not have to burn a pool during your untap >> phase, correct? > >No. The card in play doesn't remember how she played it. > >See all the "ally as a vampire" rulings on cards in play. Available here: http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR512.txt *** For allies that are able to play certain cards "as a vampire", they are treated as vampires for all parts of the resolution of the play of the appropriate cards. This includes the resolution of an action card and the resolution of a strike card. It does not include any continuing effects granted by the card (after its resolution) nor any effects given by a card in play. This reverses a few previous rulings regarding the resolution of, for example, Burst of Sunlight (will harm the ally striking "as a vampire") and the ability of an ally to use Charming Lobby to call a vote (allowed if the ally plays Charming Lobby "as a vampire"). (REVERSAL) *** i.e. when a card is being played and resolved, *that card* treats you as being <foo>. No other card does. e.g. a Ghouled Street Thug playing Undead Strength is treated as a vampire with Potence by that, but NOT by the Burst of Sunlight my Tremere vampire plays. Once in play, the card forgets everything about your "pretend" state. The difficulty is in cards which resolve over a period of time e.g. votes (where the referendum is large) or strikes (where play/resolve is split). If you think of this like a pseudo-vampire striking with a strike that would care about such things, it all becomes much clearer. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though! EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:45:03 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > "tzimisce_dragon" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message > news:ctdhqt$rvs$1...@nic.grnet.gr... >> If i read you correctly you mean that: Closed Session just checks if >> she can >> vote, it >> thinks that Kemintiri is camarilla and lets her vote, when she votes she >> isn't considered >> a Cammy and can cast her Cardinal votes freely, right ? >> >> This means that Closed Session does not "filter" the votes, does not >> check >> the origin >> and stops the non-camarilla ones. It just checks who can vote... right ? > > Right. Card text: "Non-Camarilla vampires cannot vote on the current > referendum." Okay, there is still one thing I don't quite get. Why is being able to play a card that requires a justicar equates being considered a camarilla vampire? I don't get it. I thought that terms were always evaluated independent of each other. Like, the issue with Tatiana - she can play Summoning but she cannot use it with her special (can play cards requiring Gangrel, etc.) to get Renegade Garou. Meaning, that the fact that she can play cards that require Gangrel does not equal her meeting the requirements to play cards that require Gangrel. This backward logic is what I'd expect from Kemintiri too - the fact that she can play cards that require Justicar does not equate her being a Justicar (or meeting any requirements to being a Justicar). -- Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > Okay, there is still one thing I don't quite get. Why is being able to > play a card that requires a justicar equates being considered a camarilla > vampire? I don't get it. I thought that terms were always evaluated Only the card the minion plays as a justicar considers him a justicar (and therefore Camarilla). Playing the card doesn't make him a justicar or Camarilla, and so other cards and effects do not consider him so - they just consider him to be what he is. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:9NTKd.40202$8u5....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Daneel wrote: > > Okay, there is still one thing I don't quite get. Why is being able to > > play a card that requires a justicar equates being considered a camarilla > > vampire? I don't get it. I thought that terms were always evaluated > > Only the card the minion plays as a justicar considers him a justicar > (and therefore Camarilla). Playing the card doesn't make him a justicar > or Camarilla, and so other cards and effects do not consider him so - > they just consider him to be what he is. > > exactly... also think this: if she didn't play e.g. 2nd tradition Domain as a Justicar and thus a Camarilla vampire, then she wouldn't be able to play it, as it requires a justicar. So, for what concerns the specific cards she plays a justicar, these cards "think" she is a justicar and a camarilla vampire. George

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:05:57 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Daneel wrote: >> Okay, there is still one thing I don't quite get. Why is being able to >> play a card that requires a justicar equates being considered a >> camarilla >> vampire? I don't get it. I thought that terms were always evaluated > > Only the card the minion plays as a justicar considers him a justicar > (and therefore Camarilla). Playing the card doesn't make him a justicar > or Camarilla, and so other cards and effects do not consider him so - > they just consider him to be what he is. Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it comes to the terms themselves "Justicar" is a term in itself. Yeah, you cannot *be* (nor become) a Justicar if you are not Camarilla, but that dependency - from a purely logical POV - only concerns Justicars, and not effects that duplicate Justicarhood. The ruling that says that Kemintiri can vote in a Closed Session seems to me to show a little leniency in not sticking to the terms, but also exploring a bit the logical implications of the terms. (Even though she plays the card as a Justicar, the card also considers her to be Camarilla, since Justicars are normally Camarilla.) This same leniency could, in the case of Tatiana, result in a more abstract interpretation of her ability. Like, saying that since you need to meet the clan requirements to play a card that requires a certain clan, her being able to play a card that requires a certain clan implies her meeting the requirements to play said card. -- Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it "Requires a justicar" is shorthand for "Requires a Camarilla vampire with a justicar title". Just like the Discipline symbol is shorthand for "Requires a vampire with one [or two] levels of the Discipline." [ quoted text not captured ]

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:opslexkz...@news.chello.hu... > On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:05:57 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it > comes to the terms themselves "Justicar" is a term in itself. Yeah, > you cannot *be* (nor become) a Justicar if you are not Camarilla, > but that dependency - from a purely logical POV - only concerns > Justicars, and not effects that duplicate Justicarhood. > > It is the same when an ally plays a card as a vampire. When he/she does so, he/she is not considered a mortal just for a moment, for purposes of playing the card, because a vampire is not a mortal. Same way a Justicar cannot be anything else but a Camarilla vampire. Finaly, the answer to your question can become more simple... Vtes is a game, and in fact it is a very complicated one, that's partialy why we love it. A bad side effect of this complication is [and not complicity that i once wrote, thank you guys for pointing out my errors and help me to learn the language better :)], that some cases can be ruled in different ways, by different people. Meaning that these cases are not completely crystal clear cases. Additionaly, cards are made by people and card text expresses the will of these people of how to play this game. These people (i am not sure if it is just LSJ that makes the rules or if it is a whole team) put a lot of effort and time to give us rules that help the game to be fair and balanced so we can have a maximized gaming experience. In this particular occasion, LSJ has ruled that when a vampire plays a minion card as a "Justicar, Prince, e.t.c.", he also plays the card as a vampire belonging to the sect that the title is tied to. He could have ruled otherwise and it would be also perfectly acceptable as it is his job to make the rules for us to play this game. But in my opinion this ruling of his is more "correct" than if he had ruled the other way around. note that i am not saying these things to be liked from LSJ or anyone else, i am not saying these things because you don't know them, i am sure that you and most of the people in this group allready know these things. I am just saying these to explain my point of view when it comes to cases that can be ruled differently, in some people opinions. I, myself, have ranted (i am not saying that this is what you do, i know that you just want to understand how the rule works) about rules in previous threads of mine and got flamed by people (e.g. 2 lunatic erruptions case). I don't pretend to be completely happy about every rule in the game (though i am happy with the 99% of them) we can't always agree on every rule and ruling, we can express our different opinions but the bottom line is that in the end we have to trust and respect LSJ rulings, because up to now (imo) he has given us no reason not to. (sorry for the long posting, i couldn't help it...) The ruling that says that Kemintiri can vote in a Closed Session seems > to me to show a little leniency in not sticking to the terms, but > also exploring a bit the logical implications of the terms. (Even > though she plays the card as a Justicar, the card also considers her > to be Camarilla, since Justicars are normally Camarilla.) This same > leniency could, in the case of Tatiana, result in a more abstract > interpretation of her ability. Like, saying that since you need to > meet the clan requirements to play a card that requires a certain > clan, her being able to play a card that requires a certain clan > implies her meeting the requirements to play said card. > > -- First of all, Justicars are ALWAYS camarilla, if they lose their camarilla status, their title is supressed (e.g. Deranged justicar by a !malkavian). About Tatiana's special, if i read you right, you mean that she should be able to use Summoning to recruit Garous. I agree with you on this, i have also supported this option in previous threads. I also used the same "reasoning" as you are using to support this case (Tatiana being able to "play" the card, normaly means that Tatiana meets the requirements of the card). If LSJ wished it, he could have ruled according to what we are saying. BUT also in this case, i believe that LSJ has ruled wisely (even if that means that i and you are wrong). I believe this, because Tatiana is able to PLAY the card and thus MEET the requirements of the card, when actually is PLAYING the card. So, when Tatiana is NOT PLAYING the card (e.g. the Garou) but instead summons it, she does not meet the requirements as she is not PLAYING the card at the moment and her special is not kicking in. With a few words, her special is not active all the time, but is turned on when she PLAYS the card. Thus when she is not PLAYING the card, she doesnot meet the requirements, as her special is "off". Ending this vast post, i'd like to note that if you (Dannel) like to confuse the great Lothlorien Scott Johnson [i take it that Derek was kidding about LSJ's parents naming him Lothlorien, though it would be fun to have such a name, maybe cool actualy, if Tolkien's ancestors didn't sue you :)], you can ask him the following: Justicar title is ALWAYS tied to Camarilla sect and to a Clan. No vampire can be a Justicar, without being Camarilla and member of a Camarilla Clan. So, which Clan's Justicar is Kemintiri, when playing Alastor ? Can she choose ? If yes, would she be able to play future cards that might require e.g. a Brujah Justicar ? George

David Zopf wrote: > Kemintiri > Follower of Set > 10 Cap > OBF PRE SER THA aus dom > Advanced, Independent, Red List: +1 Stealth (Merged) Kemintiri has 3 votes > (titled). She can play cards that require Camarilla, Ventrue, and/or a > justicar title. > Looks good at first but on further analysis just doesn't seem good enough to overcome the penalty of being Red-listed. The inherent stealth just isn't actually all that useful. I have enough trouble trying to find ways to use Marked Path in an Obf deck, let alone permanent stealth. Could be more useful if she had extra actions (e.g, Rutors Hand) but that just makes her even more of a target. Merged Kemintiri also looks cool at first but making her a Ventrue Justicar doesn't help all that much either. The main advantage is that she can call Parity Shifts, and has three extra votes. Not all that bad, but not all that useful if she has been torporised/burned. Also problematic in that any cards that play that need a Justicar are pretty much going to be dependent on having a merged Kemintiri since there's no easy way to make another Setite a Prince or Justicar. So most of the time they're just going to jam your hand while you're either waiting to merge her, or she's just been trashed. As far as defence against the Red Listing goes, the options seem to be: Temporary, semi-permanent or permanent combat/damage avoidance. Temporary effects are just that, temporary and will usually be overwhelmed by the repeated rushes allowed by Red-listing. Semi-permanent and permanent avoidance will usually tend to leave her vulnerable for at least the first round (e.g., Secure Haven, Sleep unseen) and are dependent upon having the right cards at exactly the right time. Temporary Combat Ends (e.g. Majesty) - useless against Immortal Grapple, expensive. Maneuver cards (e.g., Swallowed by the Night) Obedience Semi-Permanent Sleep Unseen - good for only 1 round, expense adds up. Permanent Maneuver equipment (IR goggles, guns) Secure Haven Anyway the bottom line is that your going to have to make some reasonable investment to protect her. And what do you get for it? +1 stealth that you don't really need, and a Justicar (after Merging). Not really a huge pay-off. You could usually generate a better effect by having Muaziz become Tremere Justicar. Bleed for the edge, have 2 other little Tremere in play, play Tremere Justicar. Voila, 5 votes in favour. Gives you all the benefits of Kemintiri with none of the drawbacks. Just my two cents. Anthony Barker.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:26:43 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Daneel wrote: >> Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it > > "Requires a justicar" is shorthand for "Requires a Camarilla vampire > with a justicar title". And I thought Justicar titles were also clan-specific. I've never seen a crypt card that is just a Justicar (without being tied to a specific clan) just as I haven't seen a Justicar who was not Camarilla. So I'm not sure why the distinction... > Just like the Discipline symbol is shorthand for "Requires a vampire > with one [or two] levels of the Discipline." Yeah, but Allies have explicit text for this (can play the card as a vampire). No obscurity there. On the other hand, Kemintiri does not allow you to play cards as a "Camarilla Vampire with a Justicar title", she only allows you to play cards that require "Justicar". Meaning, that by default she can't play any Justicar cards unless she joins the Camarilla? I doubt so. What I'm guessing is that you understand her text to read something like "...can play cards that require a Justicar title as a camarilla vampire with a Justicar title...", which leads us back to the issue of brevity, clarity and all the other related stuff I frequently brag about. And there's a new isse on the bragging list - how certain rulings seem to quote unintuitive applications of rules or game terms when the intent of the ruling seems to balance the game, when other rulings stick to the wording of the rules (and create unintuitive effects). Which kind of leads nowhere... -- Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > What I'm guessing is that you understand her text to > read something like "...can play cards that require a Justicar > title as a camarilla vampire with a Justicar title...", which leads > us back to the issue of brevity, clarity... card text: 'She can play cards that require _Camarilla_, Ventrue, and/or a _justicar_ title.' looks pretty clear to me.

Daneel wrote: > On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:26:43 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > >> Daneel wrote: >> >>> Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it >> >> >> "Requires a justicar" is shorthand for "Requires a Camarilla vampire >> with a justicar title". > > > And I thought Justicar titles were also clan-specific. Exactly the point. One cannot be a justicar without being Camarilla, as already noted. And therefore anything that requires a justicar requires a Camarilla justicar. >> Just like the Discipline symbol is shorthand for "Requires a vampire >> with one [or two] levels of the Discipline." > > Yeah, but Allies have explicit text for this (can play the card as a > vampire). No obscurity there. No obscurity, correct. Just pointing out the parallel. Note that the ally doesn't say "as a vampire with one Level of Potence", either. > On the other hand, Kemintiri does not allow you to play cards as a > "Camarilla Vampire with a Justicar title", she only allows you to > play cards that require "Justicar". Meaning, that by default she > can't play any Justicar cards unless she joins the Camarilla? I > doubt so. The non-existing doubt has already been been addressed. > What I'm guessing is that you understand her text to > read something like "...can play cards that require a Justicar > title as a camarilla vampire with a Justicar title...", which leads > us back to the issue of brevity, clarity and all the other related > stuff I frequently brag about. And there's a new isse on the > bragging list - how certain rulings seem to quote unintuitive > applications of rules or game terms when the intent of the ruling > seems to balance the game, when other rulings stick to the wording > of the rules (and create unintuitive effects). > > Which kind of leads nowhere... Yes, vague handwaving gets nowhere. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:27:00 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Exactly the point. One cannot be a justicar without being Camarilla, > as already noted. And therefore anything that requires a justicar > requires a Camarilla justicar. Also, it is not hard to see how it can be assumed that one cannot play cards that require Gangrel without being Gangrel. >> Meaning, that by default she can't play any Justicar cards unless >> she joins the Camarilla? I doubt so. > > The non-existing doubt has already been been addressed. That was a rhetorical question. >> And there's a new isse on the bragging list - how certain rulings >> seem to quote unintuitive applications of rules or game terms when >> the intent of the ruling seems to balance the game, when other >> rulings stick to the wording of the rules (and create unintuitive >> effects). >> >> Which kind of leads nowhere... > > Yes, vague handwaving gets nowhere. I believe that I have been quite more specific on numerous former occasions (some of which occured in this very post or the ones directly higher up in this very thread). The fact that I do not see the need in this particular case rests more on the assumption of a mutual understanding concerning the issue than on a lack of factual support for being able to phrase in a more specific manner. I am also lacking full conviction concerning the extent of commitment towards substantive debate certain parties seem to exhibit. I will not, however, expand on this point to prevent similar accusations concerning my person. -- Bye, Daneel

anthony...@yahoo.com.au wrote: > David Zopf wrote: > > Kemintiri > > Follower of Set > > 10 Cap > > OBF PRE SER THA aus dom > > Advanced, Independent, Red List: +1 Stealth (Merged) Kemintiri has 3 > > votes (titled). She can play cards that require Camarilla, Ventrue, > > and/or a justicar title. > > Looks good at first but on further analysis just doesn't seem good > enough to overcome the penalty of being Red-listed. Without seeing the rest of the set, we don't know how big of a disadvantage being Red List is. There might be cards playable only by Red List minions, similar to the Anarch-only and Black Hand-only cards from those expansions. In that case, having someone play Red List on your minions cross-table would pretty much such, but building a deck around Red List minions would be less of a problem, since you'd get the advantage of the Red List cards. I agree that Kemintiri has big problem: she's a huge investment. 10 pool & transfers for her base or advanced, 11 pool and 14 transfers for her merged. That's a lot to have on the chopping block. It might be a good idea to bring out her base version and get a Secure Haven on it before merging. > The inherent stealth just isn't actually all that useful. Here I disagree. +1 stealth is always useful. Serpentis has a number of powerful 0-stealth actions, most notably Temptation. Calling votes at +2 stealth before playing any cards has always been a big advantage for Khay'tall, and it'll be big for Kemintiri too. Combined with the Opium Den, the FoS now have really good permanent stealth options. > Merged Kemintiri also looks cool at first but making her a Ventrue > Justicar doesn't help all that much either. The main advantage is that > she can call Parity Shifts, and has three extra votes. The three votes alone are a pretty good bonus for merging, making her valuable rather than just a crypt-filler in Nefertiti/Khay'tall/Count Ormonde Free State Rant decks. > Also > problematic in that any cards that play that need a Justicar are pretty > much going to be dependent on having a merged Kemintiri since there's > no easy way to make another Setite a Prince or Justicar. So most of the > time they're just going to jam your hand while you're either waiting to > merge her, or she's just been trashed. Well, sure, if you're counting on her to play those cards. But she fits right in with a crypt of dom/obf/pre princes. Add one copy each of Kemi base & adv to a crypt of Marcus, Queen Anne, Lucinde, Arika and friends. Put a couple of Summon the Serpent in the library and a Secure Haven or two. It's an easy power boost. She also mixes well with Murat, Suhilah and maybe Madame Guil in an obf/ser princes deck (Form of Corruption + Sabbat Threat, anyone?) and with Victorine Lafoucade, Lucinde and maybe Gwendolyn in a dom/pre/tha princes deck. > As far as defence against the Red Listing goes, the options seem to be: > Temporary, semi-permanent or permanent combat/damage avoidance. > Temporary effects are just that, temporary and will usually be > overwhelmed by the repeated rushes allowed by Red-listing. Listing her costs a master phase, and each 0-stealth rush costs a blood, so I don't think she'll be rushed all day long. With the right set of combat defense rushes might be easier to deal with than bleeds. I do agree that permanent effects will probably be more useful than temporary ones, but in a tha deck she can play offensive combat, which will discourage repeated rushes. Disguising/MotS'ing out guns or the Ivory Bow will discourage casual rushers. The real disadvantage is that dedicated rush decks that happen not to have a rush in hand can still go after Kemi. > Semi-permanent and permanent avoidance will usually tend to leave her > vulnerable for at least the first round (e.g., Secure Haven, Sleep > unseen) and are dependent upon having the right cards at exactly the > right time. Secure Haven only leaves a window of vulnerability if you bring her adv form out first or merge her before putting the haven on. > You could usually generate a better effect by having Muaziz become > Tremere Justicar. Bleed for the edge, have 2 other little Tremere in > play, play Tremere Justicar. Voila, 5 votes in favour. Gives you all > the benefits of Kemintiri with none of the drawbacks. Except the SER, the PRE, the OBF, Political Allies and Elder Kindred Networks. On the other hand, Muaziz, Kemi and Rebecca of Munich might work well together in a +1 stealth tha deck with votes. > Just my two cents. > Anthony Barker. You're right that her Red List flaw has to be taken into account. But I think in the relatively small number of decks that can afford a 10-cap, Kemintiri will shine.

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:opsldm1k...@news.chello.hu... > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:45:03 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > Right. Card text: "Non-Camarilla vampires cannot vote on the current > > referendum." > > Okay, there is still one thing I don't quite get. Why is being able to > play a card that requires a justicar equates being considered a camarilla > vampire? I don't get it. I thought that terms were always evaluated > independent of each other. Like, the issue with Tatiana - she can play > Summoning but she cannot use it with her special (can play cards requiring > Gangrel, etc.) to get Renegade Garou. Meaning, that the fact that she can > play cards that require Gangrel does not equal her meeting the > requirements to play cards that require Gangrel. This backward logic is > what I'd expect from Kemintiri too - the fact that she can play cards that > require Justicar does not equate her being a Justicar (or meeting any > requirements to being a Justicar). LSJ's argument is this: when Kemintiri is playing a card requiring a justicar, that card treats her as being a justicar. That's why Closed Session lets her vote. (I found this very unintuitive because I had thought of Closed Session as applying an effect to the duration of the referendum, not an effect resolving immediately - and it has to apply its effect immediately on being played for it to treat Kemintiri as a justicar. But I can't see any problems with it working the way Scott is obviously reading it, so I'll have to revise my intution on Closed Session. :-) But when Tatiana Stepanova plays The Summoning, that is not a card that requires a Gangrel or a Brujah - it's just a card that requires Presence. Her ability only applies when she's playing a card that requires a Gangrel or a Brujah, so it's not in effect while she plays The Summoning, so The Summoning is not going to treat her as a Gangrel or Brujah for its own resolution. Make any more sense? Josh as a bear of very little brain

> Listing her costs a master phase, and each 0-stealth rush costs a > blood, so I don't think she'll be rushed all day long. Nitpick of the day - Red List rushes start at 1 stealth. John

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:367aplF...@individual.net... > LSJ's argument is this: when Kemintiri is playing a card requiring a > justicar, that card treats her as being a justicar. That's why Closed > Session lets her vote. (I found this very unintuitive because I had > thought of Closed Session as applying an effect to the duration of the > referendum, not an effect resolving immediately - and it has to apply > its effect immediately on being played for it to treat Kemintiri as a > justicar. But I can't see any problems with it working the way Scott is > obviously reading it, so I'll have to revise my intution on Closed > Session. :-) Sorry. I was just thinking in terms of "as played" and "while in play". I wasn't thinking about the extended duration effects, a topic which had already been covered in the "as a vampire" suite. Your intuition is correct. Kem plays Closed Session as a Camarilla justicar, but no longer qualifiers as either a justicar or a Camarilla during the polling, so the Closed Session will exclude her. (Reversal of previous ruling) [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:367b65F...@individual.net... > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:367aplF...@individual.net... > > LSJ's argument is this: when Kemintiri is playing a card requiring a > > justicar, that card treats her as being a justicar. That's why Closed > > Session lets her vote. (I found this very unintuitive because I had > > thought of Closed Session as applying an effect to the duration of the > > referendum, not an effect resolving immediately - and it has to apply > > its effect immediately on being played for it to treat Kemintiri as a > > justicar. But I can't see any problems with it working the way Scott is > > obviously reading it, so I'll have to revise my intution on Closed > > Session. :-) > > Sorry. I was just thinking in terms of "as played" and "while in > play". I wasn't thinking about the extended duration effects, a topic > which had already been covered in the "as a vampire" suite. > > Your intuition is correct. > > Kem plays Closed Session as a Camarilla justicar, but no longer > qualifiers as either a justicar or a Camarilla during the > polling, so the Closed Session will exclude her. > > (Reversal of previous ruling) > So, no more stupid Camarilla and Sabbat security measures... Kemintiri no more able to trick the guards, sneak into the Closed Session or the Private Audience and vote... :P Good to hear this, as it kinda seemed a little silly to be able to vote in a Closed Session and cast Cardinal votes... don't you think ? George

<jnew...@difsol.com> wrote in message news:1107195662.0...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Nitpick of the day - Red List rushes start at +1 stealth :P (you forgot to include the "+", it's the "+" that makes the whole difference... :P) That means that Muaziz will start at 2 stealth and not at 1 :P ADMIT IT, you WERE WRONG!!! :P George

[ quoted text not captured ] *Sob* I confess! I admit it! I was WRONG! *sniff* John > George

On Monday, 31 January 2005 at 19:22:43 UTC+1, LSJ wrote: > > LSJ's argument is this: when Kemintiri is playing a card requiring a > > justicar, that card treats her as being a justicar. That's why Closed > > Session lets her vote. (I found this very unintuitive because I had > > thought of Closed Session as applying an effect to the duration of the > > referendum, not an effect resolving immediately - and it has to apply > > its effect immediately on being played for it to treat Kemintiri as a > > justicar. But I can't see any problems with it working the way Scott is > > obviously reading it, so I'll have to revise my intution on Closed > > Session. :-) > Sorry. I was just thinking in terms of "as played" and "while in > play". I wasn't thinking about the extended duration effects, a topic > which had already been covered in the "as a vampire" suite. > Your intuition is correct. > Kem plays Closed Session as a Camarilla justicar, but no longer > qualifiers as either a justicar or a Camarilla during the > polling, so the Closed Session will exclude her. > (Reversal of previous ruling) For reference, this ruling has been REVERSED by the 7/7/7 RTR https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/vSOt2c1uRzQ/m/MsRAv47Cd4YJ RD confirmation here https://www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/79988-keminitiri-closed-session#106540