Analysis of the Independent Clans - Followers of Set

Analysis of the Followers of Set General Overview: Within the World of Darkness the Followers of Set are based primarily in Haiti and Egypt and are considered to be the ultimate manipulators, infiltrators and deceivers with their mastery of moral and spiritual corruption. Their abusive style carries over to the CCG exceptionally well. Along with the Assamites, the Followers of Set arrived in the CCG world in the Ancient Hearts expansion set. Since then they have been tempting and corrupting minions at will and using them for the clan's own personal objectives. Overview of Vampires and Clan Specific cards: Lalitha (2) ser Khalil Anvari (3) pre ser Hadrian Garrick (4) obf pre [+1 hand damage] Nepata (4) obf pre ser Dedefra (5) nec obf SER [+1 hand damage vs. Camarilla vampires] Aisha (6) ani aus PRE ser [may burn a blood for +1 intercept] Amisa (8) OBF pre pro SER [2 votes. May tap a vamp above 7 cap as an action] Kephamamos (8) dom obf pre SER [2 votes. +1 bleed] Saqqaf (9) cel for OBF PRE SER [Gain a pool for performing a serpentis action.] Kemintiri (10) aus dom OBF PRE SER THA [Gets +1 bleed/+1 stealth and can fight vs. Ventrue.] The Followers of Set are based around the skills of obfuscate, presence and serpentis. These skills are primarily offensive leaving very little in defense (intercept or bounce). With the combination of obfuscate and presence the Followers of Set can strike for quick and devastating bleeds. This combination of skills could also be the basis for a stealthy voting deck. The only drawback for the Followers of Set in the voting angle is that both of their vampires that have votes only possess minor presence. The serpentis skill is the essence of the Followers of Set and gives them a wide range of tactics for manipulation. Upon examining the makeup of the vampires in the clan one will notice the lack of superior skills from the lower to mid ranged vampires. Superior serpentis is found on half of the clan members but only on one with the capacity lower than eight. The same is true for superior presence. Obfuscate is even worse in that the first superior skill cannot be found until Amisa at eight capacity. Of the eight different out-of-clan disciplines the Followers of Set only have two with more than one each (aus and dom have two). Both the smaller (capacity four and below) and larger (capacity eight and above) sized vampires are excellent for the clan but the mid ranged vampires are definitely lacking in composition. One of the major strengths of the clan comes from their clan specific cards. Corruption has incredible power (although only against ones prey) and alone has created a variety of strategies due to it being a clan based instead of a skill-based card. The Opium Den, The Path of Typhon and the Mummy's Tongue work very well for the clan in support of their minions. The Realm of the Black Sun is the clan's only source of pool gain (besides Saqqaf's serpentis actions) and has a nice twist to it. The rest of the clan specific cards fail to deliver their intended value. The Grand Temple of Set costs too much for the ability and is too easily burned by any vampire as a directed action due to Followers of Set having only light intercept (from Aisha). The Kherebutu Mummy bleeds and punches nicely for an ally but uses necromancy instead of serpentis and is just to fragile to cost a whopping five pool. Overview of Serpentis : The serpentis skill offers the Followers of Set a wide variety of options to its minions. The heart of serpentis is the ability to steal allies, retainers and vampires with stealth. In combat serpentis allow its minions to prevent aggravated damage, steal blood and end combat if needed. The only thing that serpentis does not offer the clan is any form of defense. The Followers of Set have minimal defense from voters and no way of dealing with any bleed action with more than one stealth. The Followers of Set would be greatly assisted if serpentis would allow them to defend against they predator in any way. Suggestions: Be very careful here: Do not create any small (capacity four and under) Followers of Set vampires with presence. There is currently enough of these vampires in the game. · Superior in-clan disciplines: The Followers of Set desperately need to have a few mid ranged (capacity five through seven) vampires that include some superior in-clan disciplines. The clan would greatly benefit from a vampire like Sir Walter Nash of the Ventrue with all three superior in-clan disciplines. Another vampire that would help them out would be a three capacity vampire with only superior serpentis. Of the out-of-clan disciplines the one that the Followers of Set need more of is auspex. · A little voting help: The stealthy voting strategy would be helped out if the Followers of Set had one more vampire that had a vote or two. This would also assist in their vote defense. · Defense and options to burn Corruption counters: The Followers of Set need to be able to place Corruption counters on their predator. It would be ideal if they were allowed to burn these counters for a variety of options with the effect of manipulating other minions. Some of these options could include burning some of the counters to cancel or change a vampire's votes, stop a minion from taking an action to bleed them for a round, or to reduce a bleed by a pool or two (like telepathic counter). The idea of burning Corruption counters would be consistent with the spirit of the clan and give them a much-needed form of defense. Statistics: (out of 22 clans) Clan Followers of Set No. of Vamps 10 Main Disciplines Obf, Pre, Ser Sum. Size 59 Avg. Size 5.9 Sum. Votes 4 Avg. Votes 0.40 Disciplines Statistics (Inferior/Superior) Ani Aus Cel Chi Dem Dom For Nec Obf Obt Pot Pre Pro Qui Ser Tha Vic 1/0 2/0 1/0 2/0 1/0 1/0 4/3 5/3 1/0 4/5 0/1 Average Capacity of Vampires within the clan: 5.90 (13th greatest tied with 2 clans) Total number of votes within the clan: 4 (16th best) Average percent of In-Clan-Disciplines within the clan: 76.08 (15th best) Lowest capacity vampire with all three major disciplines: 9 (tied for 15th with 3 clans) Number of vampires with +1 Bleed: 1 (tied for 10th with 8 clans) Number of vampires with +1 Hand Damage: 2 (tied for 2nd with 3 clans) Todd Banister V:EKN Prince of Atlanta Scribe of the Assamites

On Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:34:14 -0500, "Todd Banister" <T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com> wrote: >Analysis of the Followers of Set > >General Overview: >Within the World of Darkness the Followers of Set are based primarily in >Haiti and Egypt and are considered to be the ultimate manipulators, >infiltrators and deceivers with their mastery of moral and spiritual >corruption. Their abusive style carries over to the CCG exceptionally well. > '<SNIP> >The Followers of Set are based around the skills of obfuscate, presence and >serpentis. These skills are primarily offensive leaving very little in >defense (intercept or bounce). No Disrespect, but let's not forget Strike: Combat Ends. So Setites may not have Intercept or Bounce, but none of the other clans have all the bases covered either. <Snip - Well written by the way> >Overview of Serpentis : >The serpentis skill offers the Followers of Set a wide variety of options to >its minions. The heart of serpentis is the ability to steal allies, >retainers and vampires with stealth. In combat serpentis allow its minions >to prevent aggravated damage, steal blood and end combat if needed. The only >thing that serpentis does not offer the clan is any form of defense. The >Followers of Set have minimal defense from voters and no way of dealing with >any bleed action with more than one stealth. The Followers of Set would be >greatly assisted if serpentis would allow them to defend against their >predator in any way. As deck designers, we all sit down and decide how our decks will cope with other archetypes during design. I would argue that if you're worried about getting stealth/bled then you could easily use Elder Intervention backed with Majesty. Depends on what you as the deck designer wish to accomplish. As I said before, no one deck is everything unto itself. That's why there never has been any One overall best deck in the inception of the game. As Setites have Presence, they have a much greater defence to voting than any other non-traditional vote based deck. >Suggestions: >Be very careful here: Do not create any small (capacity four and under) >Followers of Set vampires with presence. There is currently enough of these >vampires in the game. Agreed >· Superior in-clan disciplines: The Followers of Set desperately need to >have a few mid ranged (capacity five through seven) vampires that include >some superior in-clan disciplines. The clan would greatly benefit from a >vampire like Sir Walter Nash of the Ventrue with all three superior in-clan >disciplines. I don't necessarily agree with this, rather use Melek of the Assamite as a model. Have most of the in-clan disciplines, with an interesting ability. >Another vampire that would help them out would be a three >capacity vampire with only superior serpentis. Of the out-of-clan >disciplines the one that the Followers of Set need more of is auspex. I disagree, unless the RPG source material says otherwise (I don't follow the RPG, so I don't know if it does). >· A little voting help: The stealthy voting strategy would be helped out if >the Followers of Set had one more vampire that had a vote or two. This would >also assist in their vote defense. Good Enough. >· Defense and options to burn Corruption counters: The Followers of Set need >to be able to place Corruption counters on their predator. It would be ideal >if they were allowed to burn these counters for a variety of options with >the effect of manipulating other minions. Some of these options could >include burning some of the counters to cancel or change a vampire's votes, >stop a minion from taking an action to bleed them for a round, or to reduce >a bleed by a pool or two (like telepathic counter). The idea of burning >Corruption counters would be consistent with the spirit of the clan and give >them a much-needed form of defense. I will agree that the card "Corruption"is underpowered, and is another nearly wallpaper card that either needs a re-write or a complimentary card to help it. One strike against Vampire stealing has to do with the Golden Rule of Card Ownership. I'm not sure what the most recent DCI rule is, but in the NJL when a player is ousted from the game he/she takes all of their cards with them. Which means decks based on stealing Vampires/Minions are somewhat at a disadvantage as the stolen goods vanish after trouncing your Prey. As for getting rid of corruption counters, I would suggest that a vampire could burn X blood to remove X corruption counters. Corruption would have been better written as a unique location where Setites could take (D) actions to place corruption counter on Vampires. Of course, such a place would need to be burnable by a (D) action. Fairs fair after all.. <snip> [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 6 Mar 2000 ber...@mich.com wrote: > I don't necessarily agree with this, rather use Melek of the Assamite > as a model. Have most of the in-clan disciplines, with an interesting > ability. Definitely. With regards discipline mix, I'd like to see a few lower capacity vampires with obfuscate and presence. I know a lot of people despise stealth and bleed, but it's a built in facet of the game, and countering it can be done via other means, other cards. Stealth and presence bleed would be a nice option to have, with smaller vampires. It would also give the ability to play stealth and vote, something not often seen. > >Another vampire that would help them out would be a three > >capacity vampire with only superior serpentis. Of the out-of-clan > >disciplines the one that the Followers of Set need more of is auspex. > > I disagree, unless the RPG source material says otherwise (I don't > follow the RPG, so I don't know if it does). > Actually, Set himself originally started with Potence, Thaumaturgy, Obfuscate, as I recall. I have never seen Auspex widely advcated as a Setite discipline. > I will agree that the card "Corruption"is underpowered, and is another > nearly wallpaper card that either needs a re-write or a complimentary > card to help it. Not so. It's a nice little card. I had a nice Presence/Setite deck ("All Hail Mind Numb", at http://www.obeah.demon.co.uk/mindnumb.htm, I think) which used 12 of the things to good effect. It's also been used in vast quantities on JOL (65+, when 120 was the maximum, so we're talking about 50 in a standard DCI game) and nicely done too. > > One strike against Vampire stealing has to do with the Golden Rule of > Card Ownership. I'm not sure what the most recent DCI rule is, but in > the NJL when a player is ousted from the game he/she takes all of > their cards with them. Cards you control are burned. Cards other people have stolen stay in play - either by Corruption or whatever. > As for getting rid of corruption counters, I would suggest that a > vampire could burn X blood to remove X corruption counters. Nasty. Very nasty. It makes it too easy to avoid. Corruption takes time and effort, it shouldn't be easy to avoid. > Corruption would have been better written as a unique location where > Setites could take (D) actions to place corruption counter on > Vampires. Of course, such a place would need to be burnable by a (D) > action. Fairs fair after all.. > But look at the Grand Temple of Set. since the Setites have no location defence (or intercept) such things are just pants. Keeping it as transients is good. -- James Coupe

On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, James Coupe wrote: > Actually, Set himself originally started with Potence, Thaumaturgy, > Obfuscate, as I recall. I have never seen Auspex widely advcated as a > Setite discipline. Hmmm... it may have been Potence, Thaumaturgy, Presence, thinking about it. Erk. -- James Coupe

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: >> I disagree, unless the RPG source material says otherwise (I don't >> follow the RPG, so I don't know if it does). > > Actually, Set himself originally started with Potence, Thaumaturgy, > Obfuscate, as I recall. I have never seen Auspex widely advcated > as a Setite discipline. I tend to agree as well. The best defense is a grat offense and the Setites have two of the three standard archetypes (bleed and vote) covered pretty damned well. Since the Setites have a M.O. of accomplishing things by duplicity and manipulation, I can't see them wanting to interfere directly and overtly. What I _can_ see them do, which would be fascinating to me, is a card that forces another player's vampire to block an action. It would certainly cause the location intercepts (Radio Tower and Newspapers) to be more important. If memory servers, the Setites have a cult of warriors that use different disiplines...Potence being among them. Currently, Potence and Serpentis don't mesh well and I really don't see how they could in the future. >> I will agree that the card "Corruption"is underpowered, and is >> another nearly wallpaper card that either needs a re-write or a >> complimentary card to help it. > > Not so. It's a nice little card. IMO, it takes too many of them to be played to be effective. I much prefer Form of Corruption and Temptation. If Corruption was used against blood on the vampire rather than capacity, it would be a better card. >> As for getting rid of corruption counters, I would suggest that a >> vampire could burn X blood to remove X corruption counters. > > Nasty. Very nasty. It makes it too easy to avoid. Corruption takes > time and effort, it shouldn't be easy to avoid. Before the errata on Banishment, you use that card to get rid of them. Now, I don't think it's possible short of burning the vampire. >> Corruption would have been better written as a unique location >> where Setites could take (D) actions to place corruption counter >> on Vampires. Of course, such a place would need to be burnable >> by a (D) action. Fairs fair after all.. > > But look at the Grand Temple of Set. since the Setites have no > location defence (or intercept) such things are just pants. Agreed. If a card can be burned as a (D) action and I don't have reliable intercept, odds are against it going into my deck. Noal -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Mon, 06 Mar 2000 04:48:07 GMT, ber...@mich.com wrote: >On Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:34:14 -0500, "Todd Banister" ><T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com> wrote: > >>The Followers of Set are based around the skills of obfuscate, presence and >>serpentis. These skills are primarily offensive leaving very little in >>defense (intercept or bounce). > >No Disrespect, but let's not forget Strike: Combat Ends. So Setites >may not have Intercept or Bounce, but none of the other clans have all >the bases covered either. "I bleed you for 6 at stealth." They need intercept or bounce here, since S:CE won't do much. Also worth noting, the only other clans with no easy access to intercept or bounce are... the Assamites (CEL/OBF/QUI) the Brujah (POT/PRE/CEL) I included ANI as an intercept discipline because of Raven Spies, Raptors, Cat's Guidance, and all those damned untaps. The Assamites, Brujah, and Settites are limited to Sport Bikes and Mr. Winthrop though. >>Overview of Serpentis : >>The serpentis skill offers the Followers of Set a wide variety of options to >>its minions. The heart of serpentis is the ability to steal allies, >>retainers and vampires with stealth. In combat serpentis allow its minions >>to prevent aggravated damage, steal blood and end combat if needed. The only >>thing that serpentis does not offer the clan is any form of defense. The >>Followers of Set have minimal defense from voters and no way of dealing with >>any bleed action with more than one stealth. The Followers of Set would be >>greatly assisted if serpentis would allow them to defend against their >>predator in any way. > >As deck designers, we all sit down and decide how our decks will cope >with other archetypes during design. I would argue that if you're >worried about getting stealth/bled then you could easily use Elder >Intervention backed with Majesty. Depends on what you as the deck Elder Intervention is useless against the KRC-dropping vote deck, though. They really need SOME kind of way for -everyone- in the clan to handle +1 stealth actions, not just "well, i gotta include Aisha because she's the only one who can do the business." >designer wish to accomplish. As I said before, no one deck is >everything unto itself. That's why there never has been any One >overall best deck in the inception of the game. > >As Setites have Presence, they have a much greater defence to voting >than any other non-traditional vote based deck. The current Settites don't have Presence though. First superior vamp: Aisha, 6 cap, PRE, +1 intercept for a blood. The +1 intercept does more for anti-voting than the PRE does, so that's a bit of a waste. Next superior vamp: Saqqaf, 9 cap, PRE, etc, falls over because of his nine-capness. They have SOME inferior PRE, but it's haphazardly scattered, and Dread Gaze's +2 votes is identical to Surprise Influence from a non-PRE deck. Bleh. >>Another vampire that would help them out would be a three >>capacity vampire with only superior serpentis. Of the out-of-clan >>disciplines the one that the Followers of Set need more of is auspex. > >I disagree, unless the RPG source material says otherwise (I don't >follow the RPG, so I don't know if it does). (shrug) Serpentis card, burn one blood to gain +1 intercept at inferior, just +1 intercept at superior. That makes it expensive enough for the weenies, but adds a valuable resource to the bigger guys. >>· A little voting help: The stealthy voting strategy would be helped out if >>the Followers of Set had one more vampire that had a vote or two. This would >>also assist in their vote defense. > >Good Enough. More PRE! More PRE! >>· Defense and options to burn Corruption counters: The Followers of Set need >>to be able to place Corruption counters on their predator. It would be ideal >>if they were allowed to burn these counters for a variety of options with >>the effect of manipulating other minions. Some of these options could >>include burning some of the counters to cancel or change a vampire's votes, >>stop a minion from taking an action to bleed them for a round, or to reduce >>a bleed by a pool or two (like telepathic counter). The idea of burning >>Corruption counters would be consistent with the spirit of the clan and give >>them a much-needed form of defense. > >I will agree that the card "Corruption"is underpowered, and is another >nearly wallpaper card that either needs a re-write or a complimentary >card to help it. Rewrite Corruption: "(D) Place this card on any minion. Any Settite may take a +1 stealth (D) action to place a Corruption counter on the minion with this card." END of card text - note removal of built-in steal clause. Now print cards to burn corruption counters to steal minions for a turn, for good, etc. etc. as above. It would open up a WORLD to them, and no longer do you need 30 Corruption cards to really make it go. =) >One strike against Vampire stealing has to do with the Golden Rule of >Card Ownership. I'm not sure what the most recent DCI rule is, but in >the NJL when a player is ousted from the game he/she takes all of >their cards with them. DCI is "you take all cards you control". So if your vampire or location or stuff was nicked, it stays nicked. -- Derek Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music. It only stopped them hearing the distractions.

[ quoted text not captured ] DCI doesn't address the issue, meaning that the official rulebook rule applies: 1.3. The Golden Rule of Card Ownership Your cards are never transferred to another player permanently as a result of card play. At the end of the game, the cards you began the game with are returned to you. If you are ousted, all the cards you control are burned. Any of your opponents' cards you may control are placed in their respective owners' ash heaps (see Important Terms, sec. 1.1). Any of your cards that other players control remain until the controlling players are ousted. The only exception to this rule is the optional ante (see Playing for Ante, sec. 2.4): ante cards may change hands permanently. -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp

On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Derek Ray wrote: > Also worth noting, the only other clans with no easy access to > intercept or bounce are... > > the Assamites (CEL/OBF/QUI) > the Brujah (POT/PRE/CEL) Technically, you missed out Pander. -- James Coupe

On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Noal McDonald wrote: > If memory servers, the Setites have a cult of warriors that use > different disiplines...Potence being among them. Currently, Potence and > Serpentis don't mesh well and I really don't see how they could in the > future. Mark of Damnation. I'd like to see someone build a deck round it. > > Not so. It's a nice little card. > > IMO, it takes too many of them to be played to be effective. I much > prefer Form of Corruption and Temptation. Temptation can be slow, and the Setites don't have combat abilities (easily) to help them reduce the blood on a vampire. Form of Corruption is useless if they're playing, say, a political deck. Both are entirely usable cards, but they fit into a different niche. Corruption can be very fast, if it needs to be. > If Corruption was used > against blood on the vampire rather than capacity, it would be a better > card. That's a possibility, for a re-write, perhaps. -- James Coupe

LSJ <vte...@wizards.com> wrote: > DCI doesn't address the issue, meaning that the official > rulebook rule applies: Well, there's some of us who don't believe it's official until it's published and produced in a printed form from the company. *grin* Like it or not, LSJ, your rulings are often considered or referred to as "the DCI rulings" to make the distinction between the printed cards/rules and the web ones. It may not be an important distinction for you, but it is for those of us walking to a different drummer. [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald wrote: > LSJ <vte...@wizards.com> wrote: > > DCI doesn't address the issue, meaning that the official > > rulebook rule applies: <--minor snip--> > Like it or not, LSJ, your rulings are often considered or referred to as > "the DCI rulings" to make the distinction between the printed > cards/rules and the web ones. It may not be an important distinction > for you, but it is for those of us walking to a different drummer. I think you're off the mark here, Noal. Scott's distinction between the DCI rulings and the online updated rulebook is proper and correct. It doesn't matter to me what you call them what you want on your own time, but I can't see how referring to Scott's rulings and and the DCI rulings as the "DCI Rulings" or even the "NJL's definition of DCI rulings" will do anything but create confusion on the newsgroup. Besides, Scott shouldn't have to amend his discussion just because you would rather use the NJL rules instead of WotC's "official" set. Finally, if it is such an important difference, why not call them the "web rules"? I understood what you were talking about. Rob Grau rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:Pine.SOL.4.21.00030...@red.csi.cam.ac.uk... > Mark of Damnation. I'd like to see someone build a deck round it. > Deck name: Damned Ugly Created by: Mark ShaneWood Description: A deck built around Mark of Damnation Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 9, Max: 19, Avg: 3.58] 2 Agatha (Nosferatu Antitribu, 4, ob PO) 1 Agrippina (Nosferatu, 4, OB po) 2 Dedefra (Followers of Set, 5, ne ob SE) 2 Duck (Nosferatu, 3, ob po) 2 KoKo (Nosferatu, 2, po) 1 Lalitha (Followers of Set, 2, se) 1 Nepata (Followers of Set, 4, se ob pr) 1 Olivia (Nosferatu Antitribu, 5, OB PO vi, Bishop) 3 !Nos 5 Nos 4 FoS POT: 8 pot, 3 POT OBF: 9 obf, 2 OBF SER: 4 ser, 2 SER 14 Masters 25 Non-discipline 16 POT 18 OBF 8 SER Library: (81 cards) Masters: 14 2 Effective Management 2 Fame 1 Gird Minions 1 Potence 2 Serpentis 2 Slum Hunting Ground 2 Storm Sewers 1 Temple Hunting Ground 1 Tribute to the Master Actions: 17 4 Bum's Rush 2 Form of Corruption 3 Hidden Lurker 2 Kindred Intelligence 6 Mark of Damnation Allies, Equipment, and Retainers: 8 1 Jackie Therman 1 Mr. Winthrop 2 Sport Bike 4 Wooden Stake Action Modifiers: 13 4 Cloak the Gathering 3 Gang Tactics 2 Lost in Crowds 2 Mask of a Thousand Faces 2 Swallowed by the Night Reactions: 4 2 Delaying Tactics 2 Wake with Evening's Freshness Combat: 25 2 Behind You! 3 Disguised Weapon 2 Fake Out 6 Immortal Grapple 2 Increased Strength 4 Torn Signpost 2 Trap 4 Undead Strength Well, there you have it. It is possible, but "Damned Ugly"... Essentially, the only potential combat monster the Setites have is Hadrian Garrick, and he lacks ser. Originally I'd thunk to use the few non-Setites with ser (Mirembe Kabbada, Petru Sipos, Julius, Murat, Suhailah, Makarios) and see what I could cobble together, but there just wasn't much there for a combat deck. Perhaps bruise/vote, but it'd be even more tenuous... so I turned to a classic POT weenie style, using the small pot/obf Nossies since I could leverage the obf from the Setites with Cloaks. I probably need more Potence skill cards (or fewer Setites), since my Setites are basically helpless if rushed right now. It's not much of a deck, and it _was_ cobbled together pretty much on the spur of the moment, but it would certainly be funny. "Okay, Anson, you're Famous. Now you're Marked. Now here come the Nossies, and they want to hurt you."

In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.00030...@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Noal McDonald wrote: > > If memory servers, the Setites have a cult of warriors that use > > different disiplines...Potence being among them. Currently, > > Potence and Serpentis don't mesh well and I really don't see > > how they could in the future. > > Mark of Damnation. I'd like to see someone build a deck round it. Two Decks have been built around it. One focusing strictly on Settites at: http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra/mark_of_d.htm and one focusing on vampires with celerity taking advantage of the Mark at: http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra/ethan8.htm They are both weirdly effective against all decks that aren't using combat ends. Check them out when you get a chance. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 7 Mar 2000, The Lasombra wrote: > Two Decks have been built around it. > > One focusing strictly on Settites at: > > http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra/mark_of_d.htm Hmm... a nice looking deck. I might be tempted to add a few Wakes, as the author notes, and a couple of copies of Changeling Skin Mask - for the OBF and also for the +2 intercept. > > > and one focusing on vampires with celerity > taking advantage of the Mark at: > > http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra/ethan8.htm > My main worries with this deck are the princes. With only 3, it seems, Princes (Murat x 1, Anson x 2), it seems like it would be difficult to get the Blood Hunt cards into play. Unless I've missed someone? -- James Coupe

Rob Grau <rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote: > I think you're off the mark here, Noal. > > Scott's distinction between the DCI rulings and the online updated > rulebook is proper and correct. Yes, I know that. However, there are plenty of folks that do not differentiate between the two. > It doesn't matter to me what you call them what you want on your > own time, Actually, I usually refer to Scott's rulings as "WotC errata" or "LSJ's rulings". I don't tend to refer to them as DCI rulings at all. I was just bringing up the point that arguing semantics is silly. *ponders the irony* > but I can't see how referring to Scott's rulings and the DCI > rulings as the "DCI Rulings" or even the "NJL's definition of > DCI rulings" will do anything but create confusion on the > newsgroup. *shrug* I couldn't care less if there's "confusion on the newsgroup." (Nice use of an ominous sounding phrase, btw. It gave me chills.) I doubt there's a regular on the newsgroup that didn't know what the original poster meant. > Besides, Scott shouldn't have to amend his discussion just because > you would rather use the NJL rules instead of WotC's "official" set. Apples and oranges. Not to mention that you're taking this waaaaaay more seriously than it was intended. I sentence you to 12 hours of community service by attending a carnival. > Finally, if it is such an important difference, why not call them > the "web rules"? I understood what you were talking about. The term, "web rules" does not differentiate between LSJ and DCI. And if you _did_ understand what I was talking about, you would have realized that I was just ribbing Scott a little in good fun. Noal McDonald Anarch Troublemaker of Farmington Hills, MI National Jyhad League -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. [ quoted text not captured ]

> I tend to agree as well. The best defense is a grat offense and the > Setites have two of the three standard archetypes (bleed and vote) > covered pretty damned well. Very strong voters? They can be made into decent voters but they are not that good. They are an independent clan and only have one vampire with PRE below the cap of 9. Not a good combination. > > What I _can_ see them do, which would be fascinating to me, is a card > that forces another player's vampire to block an action. It would > certainly cause the location intercepts (Radio Tower and Newspapers) to > be more important. THAT would be cool. You actually might see some of the serpentis combat cards used rather than the standard majesty. Todd Banister [ quoted text not captured ]

>>With regards discipline mix, I'd like to see a few lower capacity vampires with obfuscate and presence. << There is already a lower capacity Settite with Obfuscate and Presence: Hadrian Garrick. There is also a lower capacity vampire with Serpentis and Presence (Khalil) but no low-cap vamp with Serpentis and Obfuscate. I think this is a gap that needs filling. I'd also like to see another under-8-capacity Settite with all 3 in-clan disciplines. There's Nepata (very nice) at 4 and then not one until Amisa, at 8, with SERP OBF and pre. Madman making out his Christmas list -- Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums Talkway - http://www.talkway.com - Talk more ways (sm)

The setites, as they stand, are pretty much incapable of effectively defending themselves from bleed or votes, and have a fair amount of difficulty against potence/rush, too. This pretty much forces them to go for a quick kill strategy, using their small minions to bleed repeatedly at stealth with social charms and such. They can't defend well against bleed, because their disciplines give them no resources for intercept or bounce. One could, I suppose, stack up pack tactics, but any half-decent bleeder will laugh his way through that, unless you include enough cards to seriously hamper you doing other things effectively. The best defence against voting -- votes and intercept on the board -- they are weak on. And their only defence in combat is S;CE, which any competent rush deck will have a strategy for dealing with. Setites are therefore forced in to a very stereotyped pattern. Since Serpentis is virtually useless (form of corruption is worthwhile, form of the serpent is marginal, as is tongue of the serpent), the one (very effective) avenue open to them is stealth bleed, which they can do quite well, given their access to Majesty and Propaganda on top of the stealth. The poor mix of disciplines on their vampires hampers them somewhat in this regard, but they can compensate by using low pool minions and lots of masters. The Setites require two things: mid pool vampires with somewhat better disciplines, and more usefuls serpentis cards. If serpentis was a more flexible discipline, the Setites would have more options as a clan in terms of legitimate strategies. It would be a very nice touch if serpentis was given some good vote-related action modifiers: this would serve to counterbalance the Setites lack of votes on the board, making a voting strategy more realistic. Either that, or some clan specific voting cards (perhaps designed to reflect Setite Thaumaturgical paths, which have some political uses...)

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Eugene Earnshaw-Whyte wrote: > They can't defend well against bleed, because their disciplines give them no > resources for intercept or bounce. They can always Kindred Restructure themselves out of the way.... Justicar Retribution is another option, as is Banishment. > effectively. The best defence against voting -- votes and intercept on the > board -- they are weak on. They do lack permanent votes, yes. However, they can use Dread Gaze etc. > And their only defence in combat is S;CE, which > any competent rush deck will have a strategy for dealing with. > It's not their *only* defence. Maneuvers are available via Form of the Serpent and Obfuscate, as are dodges. Elysium and disciplineless equipment are also available - Leather Jacket being very good combat defence, IME. > Setites are therefore forced in to a very stereotyped pattern. Since > Serpentis is virtually useless (form of corruption is worthwhile, form of > the serpent is marginal, as is tongue of the serpent), You miss out Temptation, which is a superb card. Corruption is also viable, if played properly. > the one (very > effective) avenue open to them is stealth bleed, which they can do quite > well, given their access to Majesty and Propaganda on top of the stealth. > The poor mix of disciplines on their vampires hampers them somewhat in this > regard, but they can compensate by using low pool minions and lots of > masters. Agreed. The discipline mix they have is bad for stealth-bleed or stealth-vote, or a mixture of the two. -- James Coupe

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Eugene Earnshaw-Whyte wrote: > > They can't defend well against bleed, because their disciplines give them no > > resources for intercept or bounce. > > They can always Kindred Restructure themselves out of the way.... Justicar > Retribution is another option, as is Banishment. Kindred Restructure requires a Prince or Justicar - something a Setite deck doesn't usually have access to. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, LSJ wrote: > Kindred Restructure requires a Prince or Justicar - something a Setite deck > doesn't usually have access to. My apologies. However, in such a circumstance, Dramatic Upheaval would be similarly playable, for the same end effect (that of moving you out of the way of the bleed deck, though you couldn't control the rest of the table with such finesse). -- James Coupe

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Kindred Restructure requires a Prince or Justicar - something a > Setite deck doesn't usually have access to. That depends on how well you place your Temptation cards. Seriously, you people are making me sorely tempted to show up to Origins with my Setite politcal deck to kick some ass and prove you all wrong. I can make any number of Setite Princes after I get Invitation Accepted passed...and you'd be surprised on how easy that is. Noal -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald wrote in message <8ahs9r$3uq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>... > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> Kindred Restructure requires a Prince or Justicar - something a >> Setite deck doesn't usually have access to. > >That depends on how well you place your Temptation cards. > >Seriously, you people are making me sorely tempted to show up to Origins >with my Setite politcal deck to kick some ass and prove you all wrong. >I can make any number of Setite Princes after I get Invitation Accepted >passed...and you'd be surprised on how easy that is. > >Noal hell geeze Noal go ahead ... I think that would be a good way to show these ppl the power of the setite Stealth vote deck ... oh and how many ventru had Serpentis mmm I loved what ancient hearts did to my ventrue

Ah, that's the plan. A good player with access to lots of cards can put together very creditable decks, regardless of whether the clan is best suited for that particular strategy. Obfuscate is a very valuable adjunct to voting, obviously, as is presence, so discipline-wise, Setites seem to be well positioned. A setite voting deck can be done, and I'm sure, done pretty well. So can a Lasombra voting deck. But both are harder to do (for opposite reasons) and, I think, generally less effective than some of the more traditional voting styles -- ventrue small minion, Large IC/Princes with obfuscate, etc.