the new 11-caps (Fakir al Sidi, what's he good for?), includes deck idea

The new star 11-cap is the startling Mistress Fanchion, n'est-ce pas? Despite the existence of Justicar Retribution (burn inherent 3- bleeders) I think +2 bleed is a better bonus than +1 fu +1 bar, but no doubt arguments to the contrary could be made, especially on a case-by- case basis. The 'you can't contest my title' specials on the Rafael and Hardestadt seem pretty limp, although they are the two most likely to encounter their rival Inner Circle member. Lutz's special is solid; Adana's is too, I guess, although pretty tame. Josef's special is garbage, and he would almost give Don Giovanni some competition for WORST 11-CAP if not for the 4 votes, which it's hard to sneeze at. But Fakir??? No votes; a press each combat (yaaaawwwn...); a firm but expensive, strictly defensive political special; what's he got that's anywhere worth 11? I understand he can do some stuff, but what can he do that somebody cheaper can't do as well or better? The only thing I've managed to think of is Enkil Cog + Veles Hunt + Redline. But wouldn't Stanislava do that better? Maybe Fakir can put together a better support crypt for such a deck than Stanislava could, and some Anarch tricks plus Awe and Voter Cap might outweigh the benefit of Stanislava's inherent votes. Here's a rough sketch of a deck. Veles Hunts the Redline (Fakir al Sidi Mix) 5x Anarch Convert 3x Fakir al Sidi 1x Brunhilde 1x Antonino 1x Bernard the Scourge 1x Calvin Cleaver 4x Redline 2x Abombwe 2x Dreams of the Sphinx 2x Presence 2x Vessel 2x Villein 1x Backways 1x Barrens 1x Ecoterrorists 1x Path of Death and the Soul 1x Powerbase LA 3x Enkil Cog 2x Dream World 1@ Fee Stake Corte, Los Angeles, Perth, Seattle 1x Rutor's Hand 1x Tier of Souls 6x Veles' Hunt 4x Kine Resources Contested 3x Patsy 3x Reckless Agitation 1x Firebrand 5x Voter Captivation 3x Awe 3x Bewitching Oration 2x Devil Channel: Throat 2x Earth Control 2x Freak Drive 2x Predator's Transformation 1x CrimethInc 7x Form of Mist 4x Groundfighting 2x Claws of the Dead 2x Cat's Guidance 2x Instinctive Reaction 2x On the Qui Vive 2x Sense the Savage Way 2x Raven Spy

On Dec 7, 7:24 pm, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > Josef's special is garbage, and he would almost give Don Giovanni some > competition for WORST 11-CAP if not for the 4 votes, which it's hard > to sneeze at. C'mmon. Harrod gets to be worse. -Peter

On Dec 7, 7:24 pm, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > Josef's special is garbage, and he would almost give Don Giovanni some > competition for WORST 11-CAP if not for the 4 votes, which it's hard > to sneeze at. Personally, I find an inherent +1 bleed at +1 stealth to be hard to sneeze at. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is not Josef van Bauren the first vampire to receive such bonuses in combination? Plus, he is safe from Justicar Retribution.

[ quoted text not captured ] Inherent +1 bleed at +1 stealth would make my panties damp on a decent 8 cap. At capacity 11, I start to think about how easy it is to get +1 bleed and +1 stealth from library cards. But if you're talking about the comparison to Augie G, then I have to agree that Josef's +1 bleed +1 stealth is looking a lot better than Augie's plain +1 bleed.

[ quoted text not captured ] With a single card, Confusion, he gets 3 bleed at +2 stealth (from a card that's burnable if the stealth is not needed). If he hopes to pump his bleeds higher -- then his ability to disrupt his prey's hand at random starts to seem less wimpy.

On Dec 7, 4:29 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > > Josef's special is garbage, and he would almost give Don Giovanni some > > competition for WORST 11-CAP if not for the 4 votes, which it's hard > > to sneeze at. > > C'mmon. Harrod gets to be worse. Not even close. 4 votes, +2 bleed, multi-act with Flurry+Ala-Copter +Warsaw (with OBF), vote push and denial, voter cap, combat monster if he chooses, and permacept as well. Fuck his special, his only real weakness is damage prevention and limited bounce. Not bad at all.

[ quoted text not captured ] +1 bleed, +1 stealth... where have I seen this before? Belle Equitone [LotN:PS2] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Follower of Set Group: 4 Capacity: 2 Discipline: ser Independent. The Eternal Mask [LotN:C] Cardtype: Action Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Serpentis +1 stealth action. [ser] (D) Bleed at +1 bleed. [SER] Put this card on this vampire and move a unique vampire from any ash heap to your ready region with any amount of blood from this acting vampire. The minion with this card cannot take actions, block, play reaction cards or vote. You may burn this card and the chosen vampire during any untap phase. I can get 5.5 of these little idiots in play for every Josef. Combat? That's where their paths diverge. Josef really could use some bounce other than Lost in Translation, though. Sticking with the Nos, Sergei Voshkov, The Eye is pretty good. Clan: Nosferatu Group: 5 Capacity: 10 Discipline: dom pro ANI AUS OBF POT Camarilla: When Sergei blocks an action, you may look at the acting Methuselah's hand, and Sergei may burn 1 blood to discard an action card from it (before combat, if any). +1 intercept. He can block, bounce, bleed, and beat-down just about anyone. No multi- acting for either :( Brandon

On Dec 7, 9:39 pm, brandonsantac...@yahoo.com wrote: > On Dec 7, 4:37 pm, jwjbwhe...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Dec 7, 7:24 pm, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > > > Josef's special is garbage, and he would almost give Don Giovanni some > > > competition for WORST 11-CAP if not for the 4 votes, which it's hard > > > to sneeze at. > > > Personally, I find an inherent +1 bleed at +1 stealth to be hard to > > sneeze at. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is not Josef van Bauren the > > first vampire to receive such bonuses in combination? Plus, he is > > safe from Justicar Retribution. > > +1 bleed, +1 stealth... where have I seen this before? > > Belle Equitone [LotN:PS2] > Cardtype: Vampire > Clan: Follower of Set > Group: 4 > Capacity: 2 > Discipline: ser > Independent. That's not +1 bleed at +1 stealth. That's +0 bleed at +0 stealth. Oh -- you meant she could get +1 bleed at +1 stealth by playing a CARD that costs 1 blood. Do it twice and she has to hunt. Sheesh man, that's really not quite the same. I mean, Joseph Van Bauren can burn blood and play cards too, and he's got lots more blood to burn, and when he does, he gets MORE than +1 bleed at +1 stealth.

> That's not +1 bleed at +1 stealth. That's +0 bleed at +0 stealth. > > Oh -- you meant she could get +1 bleed at +1 stealth by playing a CARD > that costs 1 blood. Do it twice and she has to hunt. > > Sheesh man, that's really not quite the same. I mean, Joseph Van > Bauren can burn blood and play cards too, and he's got lots more blood > to burn, and when he does, he gets MORE than +1 bleed at +1 stealth. He still costs 11 pool, at least 3 turns to bring out, has no good bounce, and only acts once a turn. If I have to play a card to make my 2-cap have his special (effectively) for bleeding, that's not a bad trade for me. If you go first and I go last (your pred) I can get out 4 1-caps in turn 1, 2 more in turn two (effective management), and have bled you for (8(turn 2) + 12(turn 3)) 20 with computer hackings (more with leverage) before he even comes out, which you can no longer do. Sure, that won't happen a lot and there are other factors involved than just that, but even 1 successful bleed with Belle may be worth the 2-cap, the action, and the card, imho. Efficiency is not the calling card of 11-caps. Brandon

[ quoted text not captured ] I have a weenie bleed deck too. I know weenies have their advantages. But 11 caps have their uses too, and I thought we were comparing them. One of my favorite tricks is to design a deck around a single 10 or 11 cap, and surround him with 1 cap weenies. That way, I can bring out minions quickly, without necessarily having any delay in my main minion. I'm inclined to think that Enkil Cog + Animalism untap would work well with him. Seems to me that, through a combination of Confusion of the Eye and Wrong and Crosswise, he could combine substantial bleed reduction with powerful vote defense. By playing both cards, he could either reduce a bleed by 3, or have in total 8 votes against a referendum in which all votes of the acting vampire are cancelled.

[ quoted text not captured ] I like the Wrong and Crosswise + Confusion of the Eye combo. I've mentioned the lack of good bounce, but also he has only 3 pts of out- of-clan disciplines. His special sucks really hard. If he had a better capacity for multi-acting, the +1 stealth would be a bigger deal. Basic tha or for would be good enough. If you want to use him as a blocker, he has no AUS for Eagle's sight. For God's sake, he could at least have CEL for Psyche!! If you can make a good deck from him, more power to you. I think that there are a lot better 10/11 caps from this set. I'll give a small run-down. Adana de Sforza [KoT:PB2] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Brujah Group: 4 Capacity: 11 Discipline: aus CEL OBF POT PRE PRO Camarilla Brujah Inner Circle: Combat cards cost Adana 1 less blood. +2 bleed. Good for: S&B- Bleed with Flurry at CEL and untap, Enkil Cog, Bleed on their turn and crank it up with Old Friends or Air of Elation. Free Majesty and Resist the Earth's Grasp? Yes, please! Combat- -1 cost for any combat card. Rush, free Resist the Earth's Grasp, TS, grapple, free pushing the limit, free blur. Decapitate for 1. Free Street Cred. Down side -no easily accessible bounce -minimal bloat -little damage prevention Alonso Petrodon [KoT:V] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Nosferatu Group: 5 Capacity: 10 Discipline: for tha ANI DOM OBF POT Camarilla Nosferatu Justicar: When Alonso bleeds successfully, each anarch controlled by the target takes 1 unpreventable damage. +1 bleed. Good for: -multi-act via Rutor's, freak drive, Warsaw Station -Big bleeds -Bloat with Govern -Beat down w/prevention -Big D to the OM for bounce Bad -special is very match-up dependent -no cross table blocking with Eagle's sight The Ankou has been discussed in other posts Fakir al Sidi [KoT:V] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Gangrel Group: 4 Capacity: 11 Discipline: abo ANI FOR PRE PRO THA Independent: Before votes are cast, Fakir may burn 3 blood to cause the referendum of a political action to fail. He gets an optional press each combat. +1 bleed. +1 strength. Hey, isn't this the guy we were talking about in the first place? ;P Good for: -All kinds of nasty combat -Multi-Acting with Rutor's -Social Charm bleed, Enkil Cog, Freak Drive, bleed on their turn with Social Charm for another pool Bad: -Weak bounce -11 cap with no votes? Weak sauce. There are lots of 7+ cap vamps with good specials, that's just a few.

[ quoted text not captured ] Not having votes is awesome. I have a deck with this guy that goes around the following cards: Twillight Camp, Fee Stake, Minion Tap, vote, Beast Meld, Bewitching + Voter Cap, Lost In Translation and the uber strong card Alpha Glint. Add Crimeth Inc., usable with 2 levels. With 2 our 3 minions being barons, possibly with Firebrands, one gets to a point where its not that important to have vote push. Lots of good buddies to make it a strong deck, IMHO. Cheers, Tiago

On Dec 7, 8:37 pm, robertscy...@hotmail.com wrote: > Not even close. 4 votes, +2 bleed, multi-act with Flurry+Ala-Copter > +Warsaw (with OBF), vote push and denial, voter cap, combat monster if > he chooses, and permacept as well. Bah. Stanislava does everything Harrod does, but also has Dominate. And Fortitude. And a reasonable special ability. Harrod gets inferior presence. Woo. He blows. He has no bounce. No prevent. The only multi acting he can pull off is with Flurry of Action (which isn't horrible with inherrent +2 bleed, given) or expensive Helicopters. Warsaw Station certainly is handy, but it is just as handy for, like, Sheldon or Cock Robin, both of which are infinitely better than Harrod. He is the mayor of Suck Town. -Peter

> With a single card, Confusion, he gets 3 bleed at +2 stealth (from a > card that's burnable if the stealth is not needed). So do many or most of the Inner Circle members, with a card called Lost In Crowds. OK, LIC is not burnable if the stealth isn't needed. Still, bleed for 3 at 2 stealth with a single card is nothing special in an 11 cap. > If he hopes to > pump his bleeds higher -- then his ability to disrupt his prey's hand > at random starts to seem less wimpy. A random discard is roughly as likely to make your prey draw Archon Investigation as to discard it. In general, a random discard will be nearly neutral on any deck that doesn't have to carefully groom for specific combos and isn't in danger of depleting its library.

On Dec 7, 7:24 pm, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > The new star 11-cap is the startling Mistress Fanchion, n'est-ce pas? > > Despite the existence of Justicar Retribution (burn inherent 3- > bleeders) I think +2 bleed is a better bonus than +1 fu +1 bar, but no > doubt arguments to the contrary could be made, especially on a case-by- > case basis. <snip> > But Fakir??? No votes; a press each combat (yaaaawwwn...); a firm but > expensive, strictly defensive political special; what's he got that's > anywhere worth 11? I understand he can do some stuff, but what can he > do that somebody cheaper can't do as well or better? > Mistress Fanchon does win. However, i think Fakir's ability to do 4 damage a fight without cards is pretty damn strong (see Matata). He's also got a perma-presss with superor Thaumatergy, which is incerdibly dangerous, although not nearly as awesome as the "Don't hunt while empty" text on Lambach basic. He also shares +1 bleed +1 strength with Saulot, and while Saulot has other advantages they both make really solid big-caps. They both have THA FOR, too, and Repulsion has a presence outferior...hmm...anyway, no access to good bounce hurts, but he can totally hose a vote for 3 blood, while tapped if necessary, so political decks have to be wary when lunging at him. Sure, it's expensive, but if we're talking 3 blood from a vampire or 3-5 pool from a KRC, Parity Shift or Reckless AG (a nasty vote he can call) it's probably worth it. I guess he can play Lost in translation, but if you're spending that kind of pool you better be playing Entrenching/ Restoration and Freak Drive, which is card intensive.

>uber strong card Alpha Glint. and all these years my preaching felt on deaf ears.... Well , Fakir al Sidi , his inbuild press with superior thaumaturgy has already been mentioned, throw in carrion crows, weathercontrol and flesh of marble and you got a minion burning machine. I think Adana de Sforza has a lot of potential too, he overcomes the primary weakness of combat with his +2 bleed , and he has the ability to use PRO , which grants him free claws of the death. (And Dual Form....) Throw in amaranth and absolution of the diabolist/archon and its home free!

I thought Adana was a female? Also I think discard at random is pretty decent, it's not quite the same as milling because there are certain cards you save like that crucial minion tap, vote, deflect, and everytime that random discard comes I'm just biting my nails.

On 8 Dec, 15:11, Merlin <hallofhadesco...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > On Dec 7, 7:24 pm, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > > > Mistress Fanchon does win. I think Lutz comes in a very close second, man is that special gonna hurt his prey... Mistress F is Toolbox Supreme, yes, but Lutz is just so easy and straightforward to play. "Pick a vote, any vote"... and if the table has lots of votes? fine, vote FOR everything/most of what the other players call and see your prey wither away... Anarch Revolt, Meddling of semsith (two votes for each card if you call the votes to burn them yourself!), Black Forest Base, anything goes! Goes well with, say, Ellison Humboldt if you face lots of princes, or Jaroslav Pascek for 7 votes on the table... Delaying tactics = approximation of loyalty.

[ quoted text not captured ] Harrod votes better than all of them and can fill up with a Cap. Warsaw and Ala-Copter (which only costs one pool and is less practical for Stani since it is harder for her to pass votes and she already has access to Forced/Freak) are good permanent untap using less card slots. LIT is not "no bounce" since it is usable at his cap and his stealth is cheaper than Stani's, that with Capping makes it worthwhile. Is he better than Stani? No, but he is not the worst 11 cap in the game which is what the thread was about.

In article <9eb6af21-4d1d-439e...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, robert...@hotmail.com wrote: > Harrod votes better than all of them and can fill up with a Cap. And goes so well with all the other fantastic Nosferatu with Presence. Ooh! Amadeo! Score! > Warsaw and Ala-Copter (which only costs one pool and is less practical > for Stani since it is harder for her to pass votes and she already has > access to Forced/Freak) are good permanent untap using less card > slots. Sure. But again, they help other, more useful Nosferatu just as much. And they all make better decks. > LIT is not "no bounce" since it is usable at his cap and his > stealth is cheaper than Stani's, that with Capping makes it > worthwhile. Is he better than Stani? No, but he is not the worst 11 > cap in the game which is what the thread was about. See, but I think he is. Which is why I'm making the case. In the thread about the worst 11 cap in the game. Or at least certainly the worst IC member (the worst 11 cap in general probably gets to be one of the Independents, like the Giovanni guy or Ur Shugli or someone). Heck, I have a deck in the TWDA that uses a couple Harrods (Obf/Pot/Pre vote deck that fills up on voter cap). And I *still* think he is the worst IC. Gwendolyn is no super prize, but at least when she was printed, she had some cache as the only vampire in the game with POT/FOR, and she can both bleed like crazy and kill like crazy (POT/FOR/CEL/tha = unstoppable destruction in combat). Harrod doesn't mesh well with his clan (he is the only Nosferatu in his group range with CEL, very few Nosferatu in the G1-3 range have even cel; there is very little pre with the group range), can generally be replaced by someone more effective in pretty much any situation you'd want to use him. And his special ability is just a slap in the face. Yeah, he can get super tooled up with a Helicopter and Warsaw Station and Lost in Translation and whatever, but I'd rather put the effort into Sheldon (who can bounce more effectively with Telepathic Misdirection) who can also play Parity Shift. Or, well, pretty much anyone else. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does?" -Gaff

On Dec 8, 1:28 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > > but he is not the worst 11 > > cap in the game which is what the thread was about. > > See, but I think he is. Which is why I'm making the case. In the thread > about the worst 11 cap in the game. Or at least certainly the worst IC > member (the worst 11 cap in general probably gets to be one of the > Independents, like the Giovanni guy or Ur Shugli or someone). Done. Nobody is disputing that he may be the worst IC, just that he is not the worst 11 cap in the game. Wasn't sure why you were comparing him to, arguably, one of the best vampires in the game when the point was such.

[ quoted text not captured ] So we've had some amusing discussion of the new quasi-antideluvians, but nobody has expressed any interest in off-turn (via Enkil Cog) Veles' Hunt + Redline, which I think is one of the more interesting developments, in terms of genuinely new possibilities, in KoT. How come y'all are so blase about it? I don't claim that the decklist I posted is optimized or anything, but a two-card combo to take permanent control of somebody else's minion that only takes one action and doesn't require you to win a combat (just a referendum) is kind of huge, isn't it?

On Dec 8, 11:19 am, Felix <felix_vicent...@gmx.net> wrote: > >uber strong card Alpha Glint. > > and all these years my preaching felt on deaf ears.... > > Well , Fakir al Sidi , his inbuild press with superior thaumaturgy has > already been mentioned, throw in carrion crows, weathercontrol and > flesh of marble and you got a minion burning machine. And with no legitimate way to prevent S:CE, it is all basically a waste of time. I don't think Fakir is very good. 11 is a lot of expense for someone who can be stuffed with Majesty or Earth Meld or something. -dc

On Dec 8, 1:28 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > robertscy...@hotmail.com wrote: > > Harrod votes better than all of them and can fill up with a Cap. > > And goes so well with all the other fantastic Nosferatu with Presence. > Ooh! Amadeo! Score! I know you are just trying to be snarky but wouldn't Ellison Humboldt come up before any other Nos with presence deck idea? Add Sundown and you might have a real deck.

[ quoted text not captured ] Not legitimate. -dc

On Dec 9, 5:00 am, Tbel...@gmail.com wrote: > I know you are just trying to be snarky but wouldn't Ellison Humboldt > come up before any other Nos with presence deck idea? Add Sundown and > you might have a real deck. I do have a real deck. It's in the TWDA. Harrod/Ellison/Amadeo/Sundown/ Tock stealth vote. It isn't great (but did win a tournament). And it is no way supports the idea that Harrod doesn't suck. As he does. I was just playing him out of obstinance. -Peter

On Dec 9, 6:44 am, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > I do have a real deck. It's in the TWDA. Harrod/Ellison/Amadeo/Sundown/ > Tock stealth vote. It isn't great (but did win a tournament). And it > is no way supports the idea that Harrod doesn't suck. As he does. I > was just playing him out of obstinance. So this bit of propaganda was meant to make him sound worse even though he made it to the TWDA?: "And goes so well with all the other fantastic Nosferatu with Presence. Ooh! Amadeo! Score!" And score you did! Look, no vamp with 4 votes, +2 bleed and OBF is going to suck that bad. Yours wasn't the first, only or last time Harrod was in a TWD. And he doesn't need to be just with his Nos brothers, I had a succesful CEL/obf/pre Flurry/vote deck with him Francois, Jaroslav, Aziz and Klaus. IC's just don't suck, though Harrod is the least of them.

On Dec 8, 10:04 am, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > > With a single card, Confusion, he gets 3 bleed at +2 stealth (from a > > card that's burnable if the stealth is not needed). > > So do many or most of the Inner Circle members, with a card called > Lost In Crowds. OK, LIC is not burnable if the stealth isn't needed. > Still, bleed for 3 at 2 stealth with a single card is nothing special > in an 11 cap. Burnable is better than not burnable. Meanwhile, his stealth enhances other actions besides bleeds. > > If he hopes to > > pump his bleeds higher -- then his ability to disrupt his prey's hand > > at random starts to seem less wimpy. > > A random discard is roughly as likely to make your prey draw Archon > Investigation as to discard it. Not if you know he has an Archon Investigation in his hand

In article <c22e0c99-7709-4157...@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, robert...@hotmail.com wrote: > So this bit of propaganda was meant to make him sound worse even > though he made it to the TWDA?: > > "And goes so well with all the other fantastic Nosferatu with > Presence. > Ooh! Amadeo! Score!" No, it was just pointing out that the vampires he mixes with suck too. Amadeo? Sucks. > And score you did! Look, no vamp with 4 votes, +2 bleed and OBF is > going to suck that bad. Sure. But as IC members goes, he blows. As a 11 cap investment goes, he blows. I'd rather invest in Sheldon or Cock Robin (and the matching decks) 15 times before dragging out Harrod. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <36f3849b-453b-4726...@r10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Blooded Sand <sand...@gmail.com> wrote: > > WTF? Dog Pack is horrible. It only helps one minion. It costs 2 pool. It wastes an action (or other infrastructure). How many are going into a deck that wants them? How many are you going to actually use? You are infinitely better off figuring out how to graft in Immortal Grapple or Psyche! than you are trying to use Dog Pack. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Dec 9, 11:36 am, robertscy...@hotmail.com wrote: > IC's just don't suck, though Harrod is the least of them. You know, as I look over Josef I'm starting to believe that he may be the worst IC (why do they always shaft the Nos?). No bounce discpline, no untap discipline, no damage prevention discipline (at least Harrod can Sideslip and Armour of CF! heh). He cannot cap votes and he doesn't bleed for more than Harrod (unless he Dives a couple of times, doubtful). The +1 stealth is cool but I'd rather him not have another (crappy) special and had +2 bleed instead. Move over Harrod, there's a new king of the IC dunghill!

On Dec 9, 1:15 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > Dog Pack is horrible. It only helps one minion. It costs 2 pool. It > wastes an action (or other infrastructure). How many are going into a > deck that wants them? How many are you going to actually use? > > You are infinitely better off figuring out how to graft in Immortal > Grapple or Psyche! than you are trying to use Dog Pack. That'd take even more slots than getting the Dog Pack. The pool cost is ridiculous but it's permanent and the always useful Heidelberg can help move it along. If you've got one main fighter than DP is fine especially if you're Pack Alpha-ing anyway.

In article <6774f247-32ae-40a2...@c36g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, robert...@hotmail.com wrote: > You know, as I look over Josef I'm starting to believe that he may be > the worst IC (why do they always shaft the Nos?). This is what I've been saying all along. > No bounce discpline, > no untap discipline, no damage prevention discipline (at least Harrod > can Sideslip and Armour of CF! heh). He cannot cap votes and he > doesn't bleed for more than Harrod (unless he Dives a couple of times, > doubtful). The +1 stealth is cool but I'd rather him not have another > (crappy) special and had +2 bleed instead. Move over Harrod, there's a > new king of the IC dunghill! That may very well be the case. I'm willing to call it a tie! [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <2e781f68-bc3b-42eb...@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, lordpor...@hotmail.com wrote: > That'd take even more slots than getting the Dog Pack. Really? If you want to draw a Dog Pack early and often, such that you can rely on it for anti-S:CE tech, how many are you putting in? And if you want to not waste an action, how many Pack Alpahs? When you could just be playing someone with pot (of which there are a bunch of Gangrel) or CEL (of which there aren't actually that many) and, say, 8 Immortal Grapple and you suddenly are doing ok. For free. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Dec 9, 1:59 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > In article > <2e781f68-bc3b-42eb-9261-8b6db91f6...@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > > lordportish...@hotmail.com wrote: > > That'd take even more slots than getting the Dog Pack. > > Really? If you want to draw a Dog Pack early and often, such that you > can rely on it for anti-S:CE tech, how many are you putting in? And if > you want to not waste an action, how many Pack Alpahs? When you could > just be playing someone with pot (of which there are a bunch of Gangrel) > or CEL (of which there aren't actually that many) and, say, 8 Immortal > Grapple and you suddenly are doing ok. For free. It seems they were talking about a vampire without potence or celerity in which case grafting in Grapple or Psyche would take more slots, otherwise you wouldn't need to graft it in in the first place. If you're saying not to use said vampire then that's something different altogether.

[ quoted text not captured ] It sounds crazy but with Feline Saboteur and Powerbase Los Angeles you could conceivably build a Brinksmanship deck that actually has a chance in hell of passing brinksmanship.

On Dec 9, 2:32 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > > You know, as I look over Josef I'm starting to believe that he may be > > the worst IC (why do they always shaft the Nos?). No bounce discpline, > > no untap discipline, no damage prevention discipline (at least Harrod > > can Sideslip and Armour of CF! heh). He cannot cap votes and he > > doesn't bleed for more than Harrod (unless he Dives a couple of times, > > doubtful). The +1 stealth is cool but I'd rather him not have another > > (crappy) special and had +2 bleed instead. Move over Harrod, there's a > > new king of the IC dunghill! > > It sounds crazy but with Feline Saboteur and Powerbase Los Angeles you > could conceivably build a Brinksmanship deck that actually has a > chance in hell of passing brinksmanship. Okay, now I know for certain he is the worst.

In article <455f874b-6d94-4930...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, lordpor...@hotmail.com wrote: > It seems they By "they" you mean "me"? > were talking about a vampire without potence or celerity > in which case grafting in Grapple or Psyche would take more slots, > otherwise you wouldn't need to graft it in in the first place. My point was simply that you are much better off just using a guy with pot or CEL in the first place than you are Dog Pack. I've never seen Dog Pack work well. It isn't, in a general sense, a good card. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] I am now convinced. Although Warsaw Station certainly ameliorates that sting.

On Dec 9, 3:21 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > In article > <455f874b-6d94-4930-a138-6777fdf43...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, > > lordportish...@hotmail.com wrote: > > It seems they > > By "they" you mean "me"? No, the OP and the discussion afterwards. > > were talking about a vampire without potence or celerity > > in which case grafting in Grapple or Psyche would take more slots, > > otherwise you wouldn't need to graft it in in the first place. > > My point was simply that you are much better off just using a guy with > pot or CEL in the first place than you are Dog Pack. I see that but the post is about Fakir who does not have pot or CEL in which case a Dog Pack may be useful.

[ quoted text not captured ] AND the fact that an 11 cap Gangrel can do things other then combat. Like Politics. Unblockable Action? Yes Vote Push? Yes Bloat tech? Yes Good Combat Defence? Yes Deflects Bleeds? Once a turn. Not great, I admit. Good Support Crypt? Yes Multiaction (a must in big caps!)? Yes Add to that the fact that not having inherent votes opens the door to Anarch Vote Tech. And in Politics, size does matter. Fakir is better for Politics then many IC's. But if you want big cap Gangrel rush there's always Karsh. The Warlord is still the best at what he does.

In article <2782282e-9f59-48f5...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, lordpor...@hotmail.com wrote: > I see that but the post is about Fakir who does not have pot or CEL in > which case a Dog Pack may be useful. Which was followed by Dave pointing out that Dog Pack sucked, which is one of the reasons he feels Fakir sucks (i.e. due to the lack of anti-S:CE tech built into him). Which is how we got to here. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] PB:LA?! I don't get it. -- salem (replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email) "In *my* Assamite deck, this would pwn you in teh FAEC, so shut up." "Thats only cos u've never sene mi Gionavvi PUNCHnMUCNH u asshat." - James Coupe

XZealot schrieb: [ quoted text not captured ] You could also clan impersonate him to daugthers and then play concert tour / minion tap. It works far better than Spider Killer because he also has +1 stealth AND one more capacity. Awesome. Disclaimer: This post might not make sense to some of you, it does to some others. Just ignore it if it doesn´t. ;-) -- If playing against Cock all you need to remember is: Don´t get caught by Cock.

On Dec 10, 3:40 am, Salem <kella...@hotmail.com> wrote: > PB:LA?! > > I don't get it. Gives you an extra Discard Phase Action. Which Josef uses to make his prey discard more cards. -Peter

On Dec 10, 2:40 am, Salem <kella...@hotmail.com> wrote: > XZealot wrote: > > On Dec 9, 3:27 pm, robertscy...@hotmail.com wrote: > >> On Dec 9, 11:36 am, robertscy...@hotmail.com wrote: > > >> > IC's just don't suck, though Harrod is the least of them. > > >> You know, as I look over Josef I'm starting to believe that he may be > >> the worst IC (why do they always shaft the Nos?). No bounce discpline, > >> no untap discipline, no damage prevention discipline (at least Harrod > >> can Sideslip and Armour of CF! heh). He cannot cap votes and he > >> doesn't bleed for more than Harrod (unless he Dives a couple of times, > >> doubtful). The +1 stealth is cool but I'd rather him not have another > >> (crappy) special and had +2 bleed instead. Move over Harrod, there's a > >> new king of the IC dunghill! > > > It sounds crazy but with Feline Saboteur and Powerbase Los Angeles you > > could conceivably build a Brinksmanship deck that actually has a > > chance in hell of passing brinksmanship. > > PB:LA?! Josef von Bauren Clan: Nosferatu (group 4) Capacity: 11 Disciplines: ANI DEM OBF POT ****You may use a discard phase action to discard a card at random from your predator or prey's hand.**** +1 bleed. +1 stealth. Powerbase: Los Angeles Type: Master Master: unique location. *****Tap during your discard phase to gain a discard phase action. *****If you use that discard phase action to discard a card that requires an anarch or a card that makes a vampire an anarch, you may untap a ready anarch. Any anarch controlled by another Methuselah may steal this location for his or her controller as a (D) action Feline Saboteur Type: Action Requires: Animalism & Obfuscate [ani][obf] (D) Choose any Methuselah. The chosen Methuselah discards 1 card at random from his or her hand. [ANI][OBF] As [ani][obf] above, and the chosen Methuselah burns the top 4 cards of his or her library as well. Rarity: BL:U2 So with Josef you could play a Feline Saboteur (making your prey lose 6 cards) then use his special, then use Powerbase L.A to use his special again. So that is eight cards. So at the very worst with your prey playing ZERO cards you have decked your prey on Round 13 which sounds bad, but having looked at JOL and seen that most players will cycle 5 cards between their untap phases at minimum. That puts your prey out of the game at Turn 10. That is one vampires by himself acting once per turn. If you start adding Petra/Greensleeves/Jara Drory/Zelios/Lukas you have a potent political base to fend off political decks. You could add Absimillards Army to increase the burn rate. You could add Petrodon so if you prey goes anarch to steal the Powerbase you can punish him with Petrodon's special.

XZealot wrote: > Josef von Bauren > Disciplines: ANI DEM OBF POT ****You may use a discard phase action to > discard a card at random from your predator or prey's hand.**** +1 > bleed. +1 stealth. > > Powerbase: Los Angeles > *****Tap during your discard phase to gain a discard phase action. > *****If you use that discard phase action to discard a card that > requires an anarch or a card that makes a vampire an anarch, you may > untap a ready anarch. Any anarch controlled by another Methuselah may > steal this location for his or her controller as a (D) action > > Feline Saboteur > [ani][obf] (D) Choose any Methuselah. The chosen Methuselah discards 1 > card at random from his or her hand. > [ANI][OBF] As [ani][obf] above, and the chosen Methuselah burns the > top 4 cards of his or her library as well. > > So with Josef you could play a Feline Saboteur (making your prey lose > 6 cards) 5 cards. (1 from hand, 4 from library). > then use his special, then use Powerbase L.A to use his > special again. So that is eight cards. Seven.

[ quoted text not captured ] I would combo him with Mata Hari for Slaughterhouses too, just to speed up the effect...

[ quoted text not captured ] Haha, I like the idea though I'll spin it out for you. Use it against your predator instead. A predator playing no cards gives you all the time in the world to abuse your + 1 bleed at 1 stealth =)

[ quoted text not captured ] Don't they just transfer out?

[ quoted text not captured ] Oh yeah, i forgot about that bit of his text, even though I was in a game on Monday night where one of the other guys was using it... my bad. sorry for the stupid. [ quoted text not captured ]

XZealot wrote: > So with Josef you could play a Feline Saboteur (making your prey lose > 6 cards) then use his special, then use Powerbase L.A to use his > special again. So that is eight cards. So at the very worst with > your prey playing ZERO cards you have decked your prey on Round 13 > which sounds bad, but having looked at JOL and seen that most players > will cycle 5 cards between their untap phases at minimum. That puts > your prey out of the game at Turn 10. That is one vampires by himself > acting once per turn. If you start adding Petra/Greensleeves/Jara > Drory/Zelios/Lukas you have a potent political base to fend off > political decks. You could add Absimillards Army to increase the burn > rate. + Nightmares Upon Nightmares? (and yeah, as noted in my other post, I totally forgot about Josef's discard special) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Dec 10, 4:42 pm, Blooded Sand <sandm...@gmail.com> wrote: > I would combo him with Mata Hari for Slaughterhouses too, just to > speed up the effect... Another option is some small !Nosfes as support and Vermin Channels, and then a smattering of Couriers. Bleed at +3 stealth, and if (usually, when) it succeeds you burn one card per Courier. With 3-4 Couriers in play, that starts to hurt pretty soon. //Petri