faceless night / ritual of the bitter rose Q

just want to clarify things. (1) with faceless night, the minion is tapped immediatly when faceless is played (at superior) ie once the facless is played the minion then can't misdirect (bounce) the bleed?? is that right?? (2) ritual of the bitter rose can you play this card after a decapiate? we think you can but not totally sure - ie on card it says 'when vampire is burned' it doesn't stae how so it doesn't have to be after deabilierie?? many thanks anam

an...@netcomuk.co.uk (stubby) wrote: >just want to clarify things. > >(1) >with faceless night, the minion is tapped immediatly when faceless is >played (at superior) ie once the facless is played the minion then >can't misdirect (bounce) the bleed?? > >is that right?? The minion will be tapped no matter what the outcome of her blocking attempt is. So if she fails to block (i.e. can’t play enough intercept) and wants to deflect instead, she must play a card like WWEF first. > >(2) > >ritual of the bitter rose > >can you play this card after a decapiate? we think you can but not >totally sure - ie on card it says 'when vampire is burned' it doesn't >stae how so it doesn't have to be after deabilierie?? > With the current errata "This card can be played as a combat card or an action modifier. Each of your ready vampires gains an amount of blood from the blood bank equal to the amount of blood on a vampire being burned either by diablerie or while in combat with this vampire." you could play Ritual after a Decaptitate. Hope that helps Regards Skaffen Chantry Elder Of Munich "Our hearts discern wild images of Death, Shadows and shoals that edge eternity." > >many thanks > >anam > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

>> with faceless night, the minion is tapped immediatly when >> faceless is played (at superior) ie once the facless is >> played the minion then can't misdirect (bounce) the bleed?? > > The minion will be tapped no matter what the outcome of her > blocking attempt is. So if she fails to block (i.e. can't play > enough intercept) and wants to deflect instead, she must play > a card like WWEF first. Correct per revised card text (see the errata page): +1 stealth, and any vampire that attempts to block this action [is tapped when the block succeeds or when that vampire's controller decides not to block]. If you declare an attempt to block, you would have to decide not to block prior to playing a Deflection. Regards, Noal McDonald NJL Rules Team Member/VEKN Prince of Farmington Hills, MI -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > > >> with faceless night, the minion is tapped immediatly when > >> faceless is played (at superior) ie once the facless is > >> played the minion then can't misdirect (bounce) the bleed?? > > > > The minion will be tapped no matter what the outcome of her > > blocking attempt is. So if she fails to block (i.e. can't play > > enough intercept) and wants to deflect instead, she must play > > a card like WWEF first. > > Correct per revised card text (see the errata page): > > +1 stealth, and any vampire that attempts to block this action [is > tapped when the block succeeds or when that vampire's controller > decides not to block]. > > If you declare an attempt to block, you would have to decide not to > block prior to playing a Deflection. But you could still Telepathic Counter, right? You don't have to decline to block before playing TC, correct? --- Eric Pettersen pett "at" cgl "dot" ucsf "dot" edu (NeXTmail capable)

> >But you could still Telepathic Counter, right? You don't have to decline >to block before playing TC, correct? you have to untapped to play TC (i thought anyway) so if faceless if played, then you are not untapped and therefore couldn't play any TC. somebody say something if thats not right?? anam

In article <39939ae9...@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk>, [ quoted text not captured ] Hello Anam, If you wanted to play a Telepathic Counter to reduce (or zero out) a bleed and the bleeding minion is superior Obfuscate, you could use the TC prior to your block attempt. If anything is left after the TC, you can attempt the block then. Faceless Night affects blocking minions in different ways. If you have an Untapped minion blocking and Faceless Nights are played at superior, then once the block determination is concluded (block successful or unsuccessful) the blocking minion becomes tapped and would have to play a WwEF or FA to allow the use of other reaction cards (i.e. Deflection). If you have a Tapped minion who uses a WwEF or FA, however, the Faceless Nights does nothing but provide +1 Stealth as the card text for WwEF and FA allow the Tapped minion to continue playing reaction cards until the action is resolved. But also remember the Errata on the card, if Faceless Nights is used at superior against a blocking Untapped minion and Change of Target is played to cancel the action, the effects of Faceless Night are also cancelled. (per LSJ) Michael Eichler Prince of Ramstein -- Worry comes from the belief you are powerless. (So get in there and kick some butt!) [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8n08es$18n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] Hmm I came to think of a situation when reaidng this. IF a Gangrel having 0 bleed due to Gangrel Atavism, can he still bleed (and then use dominate to increase the bleed after the prey declines to block) or does he have to play the bleed modifying card before prey gets to choose whether to block or not? I'd think it's the last scenario, i.e. that a vampire with 0 bleed cannot evena ttempt a bleed just like an ally with 0 bleed cannot, but I'm not sure on this. [ quoted text not captured ]

can...@my-deja.com wrote: > I'd think it's the last scenario, i.e. that a vampire with 0 bleed > cannot evena ttempt a bleed just like an ally with 0 bleed cannot, > but I'm not sure on this. A player may use a minion with zero bleed to bleed and wait until the prey (or whomever) declines to block to play bleed modifiers. Regards, Noal McDonald Prince/Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

pe...@address.is.in.sig (Eric Pettersen) wrote: > But you could still Telepathic Counter, right? You don't have to > decline to block before playing TC, correct? I had to give some thought to this, but you are correct. You can play TC and still leave open the option to block since the action is still directed at you. (I'll be happy to verify this with LSJ when I see him on Saturday at GenCon.) For example, if a bleed for one is declared and you attempt to block. Then the predator (or whomever is bleeding you) plays Faceless Night and you reduce the bleed to zero with Telepathic Counter. Since you have not yet declined to block, you can still attempt to block (with intercept) should they play action modifiers to increase the bleed. Once you have declared that you no longer intend to block an action modified with Faceless Night, your minion is tapped. Regards, Noal McDonald NJL Rules Team Member/VEKN Prince of Farmington Hills, MI [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8n14ja$lmt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > pe...@address.is.in.sig (Eric Pettersen) wrote: > > But you could still Telepathic Counter, right? You don't have to > > decline to block before playing TC, correct? > > I had to give some thought to this, but you are correct. You can play TC > and still leave open the option to block since the action is still > directed at you. (I'll be happy to verify this with LSJ when I see him > on Saturday at GenCon.) > > For example, if a bleed for one is declared and you attempt to block. > Then the predator (or whomever is bleeding you) plays Faceless Night and > you reduce the bleed to zero with Telepathic Counter. Since you have not > yet declined to block, you can still attempt to block (with intercept) > should they play action modifiers to increase the bleed. > > Once you have declared that you no longer intend to block an action > modified with Faceless Night, your minion is tapped. > > Regards, > Noal McDonald > NJL Rules Team Member/VEKN Prince of Farmington Hills, MI > -- Noal, would that mean that someone could declare a block, wait to see if see if the opposing minion could any stealth, then CHOOSE to play deflection??? what about 2nd Tradition? Does that mean I could play 2nd Tradition and then CHOOSE to deflect as long as I declare a block? Just trying to clarify, Justin Kindred Historian [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:10:03 GMT, kindred_...@my-deja.com wrote: >In article <8n14ja$lmt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: >> Once you have declared that you no longer intend to block an action >> modified with Faceless Night, your minion is tapped. > >Noal, > >would that mean that someone could declare a block, wait to see if see >if the opposing minion could any stealth, then CHOOSE to play >deflection??? Yes and no. You can opt to block, and if the opposing minions drops, say, Lost in Crowds on it, then you may play a Deflection instead, which bounces a bleed at +2 stealth to your prey. If you declare a block, however, and the minion adds NO stealth to the action, you may not "un-declare" your block and bounce instead (barring card text from Dawn Op at inferior) - you are blocking. slightly earlier subject - I'm not sure how the "slide-by" would work with Faceless Night exactly. There's visible arguments for both sides of that one: that once you have declared to block, you must successfully block or decline to block before doing anything else - meaning that you can't try to block, get Facelessed, and then TC or Deflect anyway before declining to block. I think that since you could play TC and block anyway if it got bumped, you aren't declining to block by playing a TC - but Deflection/TM would be otherwise, since you couldn't Deflect and then block (without someone else bouncing it back to you), meaning Deflection has an implied "i don't block" involved. >what about 2nd Tradition? Does that mean I could play 2nd Tradition and >then CHOOSE to deflect as long as I declare a block? 2nd tradition requires you to attempt to block. As long as you have attempted to block, your minion will be untapped (barring Faceless Night, etc.), and you may Deflect if the opposing minion generates +3 stealth. -- Derek Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta

kindred_...@my-deja.com wrote: > would that mean that someone could declare a block, wait to see > if see if the opposing minion could any stealth, then CHOOSE to > play deflection??? Yes and no. If they choose to play no additional stealth, your block is successful and you have no opportunity to play the Deflection. If they play stealth, than you can choose to play Deflection, rather than continue the block attempt. However, if the stealth card is Faceless Night, you get tapped before Deflection because by directing the action to another player, you are no longer attempting to block it. > what about 2nd Tradition? Does that mean I could play 2nd Tradition > and then CHOOSE to deflect as long as I declare a block? No. Same as above. Since 2nd Tradition requires a block attempt, which means that the two minions must go into combat unless more stealth is played than your current interecept...assuming, of course, that cards like Change of Target or Obedience aren't played. The difference is that Telepathic Counter can be played if they have more stealth than you have intercept or before you have declared whether or not you intend to block. Whereas, Deflection is played instead of blocking. Either way, I'll talk to LSJ when I see him on Saturday and ask him to ring in on this. Since Faceless Night is a commonly used card, it might be a good idea to get his opinion on the matter before the tournament that morning. Regards, Noal McDonald -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > kindred_...@my-deja.com wrote: > > would that mean that someone could declare a block, wait to see > > if see if the opposing minion could any stealth, then CHOOSE to > > play deflection??? > > Yes and no. > > If they choose to play no additional stealth, your block is successful > and you have no opportunity to play the Deflection. If they play > stealth, than you can choose to play Deflection, rather than continue > the block attempt. Correct. > However, if the stealth card is Faceless Night, you > get tapped before Deflection because by directing the action to > another player, you are no longer attempting to block it. Not quite. Since the "by directing it to another player" doesn't happen "before" playing Deflection, you can't draw the conclusion you have drawn above. The "I don't block" is implicit in the playing of Deflection, but that doesn't mean that it preceedes the playing of Deflection. After Faceless Night is played, the would-be blocker can play Deflection (and would immediately become tapped, even if Deflection is played at superior, by the Faceless Night effect). Corollary: blood burned for failing to block after a Forced Awakening would be burned after paying the cost for Deflection: http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=518858107 (Because you don't "choose not to block" until the Deflection is paid). > > what about 2nd Tradition? Does that mean I could play 2nd Tradition > > and then CHOOSE to deflect as long as I declare a block? > > No. Same as above. Since 2nd Tradition requires a block attempt, which > means that the two minions must go into combat unless more stealth is > played than your current intercept. [...] Correct. > The difference is that Telepathic Counter can be played if they have > more stealth than you have intercept or before you have declared > whether or not you intend to block. Whereas, Deflection is played > instead of blocking. Right. You can play Telepathic Counter in the middle of a block attempt, but doing so won't abort the block attempt. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

So if A is bleeding, and B attempts to block: 1) A declares bleed 2) B declares block 3) A places faceless night (sup) 4) B plays deflection (sup) and taps; bleed is bounced to another methusalah, who attempts to block with C 5) C declares block, using intercept from sport bike 6) A places lost in crowds 7) C deflects back to original target (B) Can B still attempt to block? Or have they tapped because they played the deflection? Is C tapped as well a B? [ quoted text not captured ]

kp...@my-deja.com wrote: > So if A is bleeding, and B attempts to block: > 1) A declares bleed > 2) B declares block > 3) A places faceless night (sup) > 4) B plays deflection (sup) and taps; > bleed is bounced to another methusalah, who attempts to block with C > 5) C declares block, using intercept from sport bike > 6) A places lost in crowds > 7) C deflects back to original target (B) > > Can B still attempt to block? Or have they tapped because they played > the deflection? He has tapped (see step 4). > Is C tapped as well a B? Yes. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]