if you think that the new 11cap sucks...

.. then no one cares. Exchange them for nice rare cards with other players and stop whining and writing nonsense like "Saqaf is better than sutek" or "Ur shulgi should have +1 or +2 this or that." There are people out there who are simply hppy to create new decks, and theses 11 cap will help them a lot. Ur shulgi in a "Assamit dominates you" - imagine the awesome fighters with access to "Thoughts betrayed".... Suhtek in a "mummy nightmare deck" with havens, mark of damnations and rushing mummies... Augustus in a "zombie returns deck", with some "revelations" and a lot of awesome bleeds made unblockable with Daring the dawn. Of course Regina burns, but you're bled for 7 ! And she's coming back soon ! i have the deep impression that people who complain that these new 11 cap are underpowered are the same that actually would have complained if they were overpowered. If you understand what i mean.... reyda

"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> a écrit dans le message news: 9gabe4$cl5$1...@neon.noos.net... [ quoted text not captured ] Think i will trade some Ravnos stuff soon

"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:<9gabe4$cl5$1...@neon.noos.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] First of all, I don愒 think you read the whole of my posts. I explicitly said they were not intended to offend anyone. You seem offended. Of course I will build a ton of new decks using the cards, of course I am and will be every bit as exited as you to find new combos and uses for oud cards and new. But I do think that most of what I said in my post was fact, backed up by some opinion, of course. The new 11caps ARE a dissapointment. Especially for those of us who play the RPG as well as V:TES. They are "underpowered" as you put it. And by V:TES standards. I made perfectly good points about why should anyone spend 11 pool when they can spend 10 and get something better. And maybe use the other 1 pool for some location, ally or whatever. And like I said on one of my posts, I DO like the epansion as a whole. However I am very demanding. And WW made a very good product that did it愀 job of making old players happy and interesting enough to get new players as well. But there ARE chinks in it愀 armor. Most people will think it愀 pretty lame to have Antedeluvians in the game, even if they just give it a passing thought, they will find it odd nonetheless. And those people who have the drive to make better and better WINNING decks will also have a hard time finding reasons to include the new 11caps. People who play just for fun (myself included), will use ALL the new cards (yes, even Tortured Confessions) and will have a lot of fun doing so, but they will always wonder why WW didn愒 make that extra effort to make a very good expansion an excelent expansion. Be it the Pre-con decks that some people thought were kind of lacking, be it the excessive Cristopher Shy art, the lack of Tzimise or Lasombra or the inclusion of Antedeluvians. If any of these were present, the expansion would still be exelent, but with all of them present.... Again, I hope no one is offended or annoyed by my post, and i apologize beforehand to anyone that is (and for any spelling). Daniel.

On 14 Jun 2001 11:18:38 -0700, om...@uol.com.br (Daniel Figueiredo) wrote: >> i have the deep impression that people who complain that these new 11 cap >> are underpowered are the same that actually would have complained if they >> were overpowered. If you understand what i mean.... >> >> reyda > > First of all, I don愒 think you read the whole of my posts. I >explicitly said they were not intended to offend anyone. You seem >offended. Of course I will build a ton of new decks using the cards, >of course I am and will be every bit as exited as you to find new You don't sound it, though, and what you say may affect other, newer players' opinions of the game. It helps the game not AT ALL to go rushing about shouting and crying about how you think some cards suck... especially right at the release of a new expansion. And especially when you're wrong. It would serve you better to put some of that energy into figuring out what can be DONE with the vampires, instead of wasting time and energy bitching about what you think can't be done. >combos and uses for oud cards and new. But I do think that most of >what I said in my post was fact, backed up by some opinion, of course. Everything you said in your post was opinion. EVERYTHING. Same as in my response. The only things that were factual were the names, disciplines, and abilities of the vampires in question. You need to learn the difference between "fact" and "opinion". >And by V:TES standards. I made perfectly good points about why should Which I responded to and refuted with examples, although I note you haven't replied yet to my post on the subject. >And like I said on one of my posts, I DO like the epansion as a whole. Then act like it? >players as well. But there ARE chinks in it愀 armor. Most people will >think it愀 pretty lame to have Antedeluvians in the game, even if they >just give it a passing thought, they will find it odd nonetheless. And Oh, and you are "most people"? Who exactly have you surveyed? You know, "most people" say that people who spend all their time complaining are idiots. I believe my statement has just as much validity as yours. >those people who have the drive to make better and better WINNING >decks will also have a hard time finding reasons to include the new >11caps. People who play just for fun (myself included), will use ALL Actually, I have such a drive, and I didn't have a very hard time at ALL coming up with ideas for the 11-caps. Just takes a little imagination and effort spent positively, instead of that same effort spent publically bashing on the new expansion. >the new cards (yes, even Tortured Confessions) and will have a lot of >fun doing so, but they will always wonder why WW didn愒 make that >extra effort to make a very good expansion an excelent expansion. Be It's always easy to sit back and bitch, piss, and moan from the sidelines, isn't it? Doesn't require much "extra effort" at all to take potshots at the expansion after it comes out, does it? >Again, I hope no one is offended or annoyed by my post, and i >apologize beforehand to anyone that is (and for any spelling). Instead of apologizing, just put a cork in it. How's that? -- Derek

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote (Daniel Figueiredo) wrote: > > > First of all, I don´t think you read the whole of my posts. I > >explicitly said they were not intended to offend anyone. You seem > >offended. Of course I will build a ton of new decks using the cards, > >of course I am and will be every bit as exited as you to find new > > You don't sound it, though, and what you say may affect other, newer > players' opinions of the game. Derek, perhaps someday you'll realize that you can't reconcile the statement you made above with your previous comments about your refusal to behave civilly on the internet. If that ever happens, perhaps you'll either stop flaming posters as you did in the rest of your post (which I snipped), or you'll stop flaming alltogether. But somehow, I doubt either will happen. Though it does make me laugh out loud that more people on this group criticize writing above quoted material than criticize the sort of post that you fired off at the previous poster's honest criticism. - Jason Bell

On 14 Jun 2001 11:18:38 -0700, Daniel Figueiredo wrote: >Most people willthink it愀 pretty lame to have Antedeluvians >in the game I like the card Antediluvian Awakening and think it does a good job of representing them in a different way from the younger vampires. The Antediluvians have god-like powers and just giving them another point of capacity and a superior discipline is feeble. I've finished the computer game now and the climax is a showdown with Vukodlak, who is the Tzimisce Antediluvian. He's a seriously heavy dude and swats members of your coterie like flies. I read the aura of his demon form and it had 3000 health points - over ten times the value of an elder. Going toe to toe with him is fatal and you have to use some kind of trick to even stand a chance of defeating him. My cunning plan involved a lot of running away <grin>. And that reminds me, when is the CCG going to get a chain gun or heavy machine gun? It's fun using one of these on a War Ghoul. These are vicious opponents who can gut you with one blow but they aren't quite strong enough to wade upstream through the torrent of bullets that one of those babies can put out. Of course the CCG version would probably be nerfed like the Antediluvians but one can dream ... Andrew

> And that reminds me, when is the CCG going to get a chain gun or heavy > machine gun? It's fun using one of these on a War Ghoul. These are > vicious opponents who can gut you with one blow but they aren't quite > strong enough to wade upstream through the torrent of bullets that one > of those babies can put out. Of course the CCG version would probably > be nerfed like the Antediluvians but one can dream ... > > Andrew You're already paying 5 pool for an assault rifle, you want to pay the cost for a heavy machine gun? Volker, Assault rifle... hmm.. clearly equal. Tig

Reyda wrote: > i have the deep impression that people who complain that these new 11 cap > are underpowered are the same that actually would have complained if they > were overpowered. If you understand what i mean.... I haven't sat down and looked at the 11-caps to see what I think. But regardless, this is STRANGE, strange statement! No, I don't understand what you mean. If a new card is printed that's underpowered, that's bad. It's a waste of cardboard and a ripoff to the people who get stuck with it - especially as a rare. And if a new card is printed up that's overpowered, that's bad too! It imbalances the game and makes one card too easy to use to win the game. This trivializes decks that don't use it. It's bad for a card to be underpowered and bad for a card to be overpowered. So people can and should complain about both, when they truly happen. Can you understand that? Perhaps you need to clarify what you mean by the above. Fred

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:38:37 +0100, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: >And that reminds me, when is the CCG going to get a chain gun or heavy >machine gun? It's fun using one of these on a War Ghoul. These are Assault Rifle -- original Jyhad Weapon, Gun, 5 pool 4 damage per strike, with an optional maneuver. Submachine Gun -- original Jyhad and Sabbat Weapon, Gun, 4 pool 3 damage per strike, with an optional maneuver. >vicious opponents who can gut you with one blow but they aren't quite >strong enough to wade upstream through the torrent of bullets that one >of those babies can put out. Of course the CCG version would probably >be nerfed like the Antediluvians but one can dream ... With inferior Celerity, you can do either 6 or 8 points of damage at long range - a War Ghoul has 5 life and can only prevent one point. "Splat." -- Derek

In message <3B2A405B...@netcom.com>, Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> writes >If a new card is printed that's underpowered, that's bad. It depends how far underpowered. If it's underpowered so far as to be unusable, that's bad. If it's "underpowered" but still has lots of use, that's not necessarily bad. For those complaining about the 11 caps, where would you put them on this line? Underpowered Overpowered <---------|------------------------|-------------------------|---------> Wall Average Over Paper Powered -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D "You reinstall Dial-Up Networking. The Elf screams and becomes EBD690ECD7A1F an icon. *** CONGRATULATIONS! *** You completed the BT Internet B457CA213D7E6 Helpdesk training course in 15 out of a possible 9000 moves." 68C3695D623D5D

James Coupe wrote: > > In message <3B2A405B...@netcom.com>, Frederick Scott > <fre...@netcom.com> writes > >If a new card is printed that's underpowered, that's bad. > > It depends how far underpowered. > > If it's underpowered so far as to be unusable, that's bad. If it's > "underpowered" but still has lots of use, that's not necessarily bad. It's still bad. It's just not as bad as the worthless underpowered cards. It's a scale. Ideally, all cards are equally powerful. But of course, it's all subjective and extremely fuzzy and everything so if you get cards that are within shouting distance of each other in terms of power, that's probably the most you can expect. Also, it's clear that the overpowered cards do worse things to the game in general than the underpowered cards, since overpowered cards basically make all the things in the middle (hopefully carefully designed or at least errated/modified/reprinted to get stuck in the middle) underpowered compared to it. The underpowered cards are just bad for their own sake, but leave the overall game alone. Fred

In message <3B2A775E...@netcom.com>, Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> writes >> If it's underpowered so far as to be unusable, that's bad. If it's >> "underpowered" but still has lots of use, that's not necessarily bad. > >It's still bad. Since we have a sliding scale, in the real world, some cards will inevitably be below the mean average. That they are now below average doesn't make them bad, or make their existence bad. How far they are below, and how far below wallpaper is, are extremely relevant. Hence, something being underpowered and below the average is not bad. If everything was above average, the game would slowly *have* to increase its level of comparative power. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <GeIR6NWoImK7Ewl$@obeah.demon.co.uk>, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > Underpowered Overpowered ><---------|------------------------|-------------------------|---------> > Wall Average Over > Paper Powered Hm. This isn't going to work with anyone whose newsreader doesn't use a monospaced font. So I'm moving it to the vertical: Broken (theoretical limit) [Return to Innocence as printed] ^ | Very Strong [Arika] | [Leandro] | Strong [Alexandra] | | [Stanislava, Ezmerelda] Balanced [Etrius, Sutekh, Augustus Giovanni] | [Gwendolyn, Harrod] | [ur-Shulgi] Weak | | Very Weak | v Coaster (theoretical limit) [Chainsaw] -- Yes, I believe but I'd rather not pray What I believe in I'd rather not say, baby

"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> [ quoted text not captured ] Hum, i think having powerful vamps around is a nice thing. Don't forget the whole uniqueness and contest thing. I remember days were Muaziz was so popular that she ended up contested every week. She was powerful, so everyone wanted her in his crypt, only for the +1 stealth and the free diablerie . Dreams of the Sphinx is powerful ? it's unique. Only one in play at a time. That's that simple. Using lightly underpowered vamps means you don't have to worry about contest. Look at each clan: everyone agrees that Camille, Merill, Beast, Carlotta or Gilbert duane are powerful : these are the vamps you are most likely to contest. Their strength increase their popularity, so, everytime you play them it's kind of a gamble. Personally i like that, it adds flavor to the game. Do you ? btw what i mean about whinners is: no matter how good or bad an expansion is, some people will always go "cry baby" and write a lot of nonsense. Just accept the cards as they come and try to play with them, it's too late to change anything anyway. It's too easy to criticize a card game from the RPG pointof view. I'm tired of messages like this. that's all folks !

Reyda wrote: > > "Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> > > > Also, it's clear that the overpowered cards do worse things to the game > > in general than the underpowered cards, since overpowered cards basically > > make all the things in the middle (hopefully carefully designed or at > > least errated/modified/reprinted to get stuck in the middle) underpowered > > compared to it. The underpowered cards are just bad for their own sake, but leave > > the overall game alone. > > Hum, i think having powerful vamps around is a nice thing. Don't forget the > whole uniqueness and contest thing. I remember days were Muaziz was so > popular that she ended up contested every week. She was powerful, so > everyone wanted her in his crypt, only for the +1 stealth and the free > diablerie . Dreams of the Sphinx is powerful ? it's unique. Only one in play > at a time. That's that simple. Using lightly underpowered vamps means you > don't have to worry about contest. I understand what you're saying and I agree that uniqueness mitigates the problem somewhat. However, I don't think it actually fixes the problem. For one thing, even when a card is overpowered a great deal, it won't necessarily be contested. If you have, say, a dozen or so such overpowered cards and they tend to cause people to build a dozen or so overpowered decks based on the respective cards, you're unlikely to have a problem with contesting come up very often. But the relatively small subset of powerful decks detracts from anyone trying to use any other decks. It's subtle at times, but it's clear to me that overpowered cards are always very bad for a game, even when unique. > Look at each clan: everyone agrees that Camille, Merill, Beast, Carlotta or > Gilbert duane are powerful : these are the vamps you are most likely to > contest. Their strength increase their popularity, so, everytime you play > them it's kind of a gamble. Personally i like that, it adds flavor to the > game. Do you ? Well, yes and no. I agree that the flavor that gets added due to their particular power is good. But the fact that they have no compensating weaknesses (or their compensating weaknesses are insufficient to the powers they've been given) hurts the game. I think the game is much more fun when strong powers are much more balanced with bad weaknesses. It makes you think how you have to build your deck to compensate for the weakness you're getting. And get enough good out the strength to make the weakness acceptable. > btw what i mean about whinners is: no matter how good or bad an expansion > is, some people will always go "cry baby" and write a lot of nonsense. Just > accept the cards as they come and try to play with them, it's too late to > change anything anyway. It's too easy to criticize a card game from the RPG > pointof view. I'm tired of messages like this. that's all folks ! Well, bad cards can be errated. And Usenet complaints about them undoubtedly contribute to how quickly that gets done. But I agree, a lot of people seem to make a lot of snap judgments about cards being overpowered or else wallpaper before they've actually don't much in the new environment. Such is the nature of Usenet - it's a place to vent. Fred

> >players as well. But there ARE chinks in it´s armor. Most people will > >think it´s pretty lame to have Antedeluvians in the game, even if they > >just give it a passing thought, they will find it odd nonetheless. And > > Oh, and you are "most people"? Who exactly have you surveyed? > > You know, "most people" say that people who spend all their time > complaining are idiots. I believe my statement has just as much > validity as yours. I second the motion, as being opinionated, and a fact. > >the new cards (yes, even Tortured Confessions) and will have a lot of > >fun doing so, but they will always wonder why WW didn´t make that > >extra effort to make a very good expansion an excelent expansion. Be > > It's always easy to sit back and bitch, piss, and moan from the > sidelines, isn't it? Doesn't require much "extra effort" at all to > take potshots at the expansion after it comes out, does it? > Actually, i have to say that WW and the team that has created the new cards, has done a great job with the new expansion. This expansion filled up the holes that were created in the past. The game has now changed. Independant, doesn't mean "weak" anymore. > >Again, I hope no one is offended or annoyed by my post, and i > >apologize beforehand to anyone that is (and for any spelling). > > Instead of apologizing, just put a cork in it. How's that? I would say... Excellent! GP41

I am a little confused as to why everyone thinks Ur-Shugli is worse than Harrod. He is the only 11 cap that can Minion Tap and bloat with an action. All he has to do is rush with Clandestine Contract and throw down Provision of the Sisilia once the vamp is taking a dirt nap. It is better than a Minion Tap and Fifth Trad because there is a dead vampire in the mix. > Broken (theoretical limit) [Return to Innocence as printed] > ^ > | > Very Strong [Arika] > | [Leandro] > | > Strong [Alexandra] > | > | [Stanislava, Ezmerelda] > Balanced [Etrius, Sutekh, Augustus Giovanni] > | [Gwendolyn, Harrod] > | [ur-Shulgi] > Weak > | > | > Very Weak > | > v > Coaster (theoretical limit) [Chainsaw] Toliet Paper (true limit) (Eyes of the Dead) Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:38:37 +0100, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: >On 14 Jun 2001 11:18:38 -0700, Daniel Figueiredo wrote: > >>Most people willthink it愀 pretty lame to have Antedeluvians >>in the game > >I like the card Antediluvian Awakening and think it does a good job of >representing them in a different way from the younger vampires. The >Antediluvians have god-like powers and just giving them another point >of capacity and a superior discipline is feeble. > >I've finished the computer game now and the climax is a showdown with >Vukodlak, who is the Tzimisce Antediluvian. He's a seriously heavy >dude and swats members of your coterie like flies. I read the aura of >his demon form and it had 3000 health points - over ten times the >value of an elder. Going toe to toe with him is fatal and you have to >use some kind of trick to even stand a chance of defeating him. My >cunning plan involved a lot of running away <grin>. I was coding (for the computer game) with Yith on the WoD Mod back when the MAGE mod was in it's infancy. I was also the first person to use the Java interface to create a discipline for the computer version (before the API and documentation was even released) through some half-baked hacking. Since the computer game is so fsck'd (in terms of flexibility), I decided on starting up my VTESC project =p

On 14 Jun 2001 11:18:38 -0700, om...@uol.com.br (Daniel Figueiredo) wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Criticizing the expansion is fair. It should be done. I am disappointed that some of the clans got shafted (las, tzi, and to a point, rav), but not as much as I am happy that the ol' camarilla got some new cam vamps. Few people who play the game know the origins of the characters. We just happen to be the most adament and try to stay as involved with the genre as possible, so it bothers some of us. 1 in 10? players knows (kinda) what an antedelluvian is, or even cares. The fact that there is are representative cards, is trivial. The CCG does not follow the RPG. It's just based on it. You get what you pay for in a pre-con deck from WotC. Everyone who has played a CCG knows that. Perhaps C. Shy was the only artist willing to produce prints below the budget, that allowed other artists to be employed for what little work they did. Perhaps other artists dont like doing vamp artwork as much as C.Shy. Tell us when YOU find out why. Some clans got shafted, but that's how it goes when you have so many and you're still trying to follow the tried and true formulas for CCG expansions by WotC. You release a certain number with certain rarities then after awhile, you release a new expansion. Please note that this message should not be construed as a vote of confidence for Derek's rantings. God forbid someone misinterprets some of my generalizations literally. Try not to. Why does this feel like a legal disclaimer?

On Sat, 16 Jun 2001 21:37:32 GMT, no...@nowhere.com (Jack Crow) wrote: >Criticizing the expansion is fair. It should be done. I am >disappointed that some of the clans got shafted (las, tzi, and to a >point, rav), but not as much as I am happy that the ol' camarilla got >some new cam vamps. you think the Ravnos got shafted? *big grin* Of course, I suppose that's appropriate since the Ravnos -are- about deception. >Few people who play the game know the origins of the characters. We >just happen to be the most adament and try to stay as involved with >the genre as possible, so it bothers some of us. 1 in 10? players >knows (kinda) what an antedelluvian is, or even cares. The fact that >there is are representative cards, is trivial. The CCG does not follow >the RPG. It's just based on it. You know, we've TRIED saying that to people before, and either they have very good earplugs or very good tunnel vision. >You get what you pay for in a pre-con deck from WotC. Everyone who has >played a CCG knows that. 'course, this was from White Wolf, not WotC. >Please note that this message should not be construed as a vote of >confidence for Derek's rantings. God forbid someone misinterprets some >of my generalizations literally. Try not to. Why does this feel like a >legal disclaimer? And you all said that Dale Carnegie course wouldn't work out for me! -- Derek

"XZealot" <X_Ze...@email.msn.com> a écrit dans le message news: > I am a little confused as to why everyone thinks Ur-Shugli is worse than Harrod. > He is the only 11 cap that can Minion Tap and bloat with an action. All he > has to do is rush with Clandestine Contract and throw down Provision of the > Sisilia once the vamp is taking a dirt nap. It is better than a Minion Tap > and Fifth Trad because there is a dead vampire in the mix. VERY nice comment =) I think even a good round of combat -say superior Lightning reflexes for 4 unpreventables strikes followed by a single Taste of Vitae should be okay.

"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:<9gi6h2$oph$1...@hadron.noos.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] Also, it doesn't hurt if that vampire has Fame on it (which should happen long before You're Sugary comes into play. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Reyda wrote: > > i have the deep impression that people who complain that these new 11 cap > > are underpowered are the same that actually would have complained if they > > were overpowered. If you understand what i mean.... I am wondering if people are complaining that the new 11's are underpowered because they are comparing them to the Camarilla Inner Circles. Is that truly a fair comparison? Should the 11's of the Camarilla be more powerful than the Independent 11's? Does that not make sense? The structure of the Camarilla and the frailty of the Independent clans ideally should be represented, and I think that the new 11's show that properly. Obviously Arika and Leandro and to a point Alexandra are the "Kings of the IC", but even the 4 new guys have varying degrees of usefulness. Could they really print more vamps with +2 bleed inherent? I myself will try to play with the new guys, and try to find their place in a deck. I am sure that if people really wanted to they could do the same! DECK CHALLENGE!!! oAFLORD aka Thomas Kuster VEKN Prince of Caledon "Challenger of Souls"

"oaflord" <oaf...@sprint.ca> > > I am wondering if people are complaining that the new 11's are underpowered > because they are comparing them to the Camarilla Inner Circles. Is that > truly a fair comparison? Should the 11's of the Camarilla be more powerful > than the Independent 11's? They should be equally as powerful I think. An investment of 11 pool should be worth 11 pool, regardless of sect status. > Does that not make sense? The structure of the > Camarilla and the frailty of the Independent clans ideally should be > represented, and I think that the new 11's show that properly. Obviously > Arika and Leandro and to a point Alexandra are the "Kings of the IC", but > even the 4 new guys have varying degrees of usefulness. Could they really > print more vamps with +2 bleed inherent? I myself will try to play with the > new guys, and try to find their place in a deck. I am sure that if people > really wanted to they could do the same! DECK CHALLENGE!!! So far, aside from strategies that involve big vampires in general, I don't see much reason to play with the Indy 11-caps. Free States Rant might work nicely, but that's a strange reason to invest that much pool. Of course, you can say the same about a lot of 10-caps... or 9-caps. Ultimately, it doesn't matter that they are 11's so much as they are not worth their price... Cheers, WES

In message <9gl4d...@enews1.newsguy.com>, Wes <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> writes <IC vs 11 cap Indies> >They should be equally as powerful I think. > >An investment of 11 pool should be worth 11 pool, regardless of sect status. Which, to my mind, they are. None of them are as poor as, say, Gwendolyn, but none as powerful as Arika, slipping neatly into the middle. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Wes" <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:<9gl4d...@enews1.newsguy.com>... > "oaflord" <oaf...@sprint.ca> > > > > I am wondering if people are complaining that the new 11's are > underpowered > > because they are comparing them to the Camarilla Inner Circles. Is that > > truly a fair comparison? Should the 11's of the Camarilla be more > powerful > > than the Independent 11's? > > They should be equally as powerful I think. > > An investment of 11 pool should be worth 11 pool, regardless of sect status. Exactly, would you think it was okay paying 3 for the independent hunting grounds, just because they are independent? No, so why pay more for your 11 Caps(ie more more, for less powers) Lets just look at Gwendolyn as our basis, because she is the worse IC, as she has the same number of disciplines as Harrod, but no special powers at all. aus CEL FOR POT PRE tha(10 points dis) 4 votes +2 bleed #1 Ur-Shulgi, The Shepherd: 11/11 -CEL DOM OBF QUI THA aus -Ur-Shulgi has 2 votes. If ur-Shulgi is ready during your untap phase, you may search your library and put Tajdid in your hand. Discard down to your hand size and shuffle your library afterward. (Blood Cursed) 11 points dis(up by 1!) 2 votes(down by 2!) a special ability(too bad it's only ever good once, and probably not that good cause if it's in your deck, it could well be in your had) but wait, he's blood cursed. and NO bleed. even on par with the low end of the IC, doubt it. ----------------------------------------------------------- #2 Sutekh, The Dark God: 11/11 -NEC OBF PRE SER cel pot -Sutekh has 2 votes. You gain a pool each time an action to recruit a Bane Mummy ally is successful. During your untap, you may move 1 blood between Sutekh and any other Follower of Set you control. +1 bleed. 10 points of dis(tied) 2 votes(down by 2) Not 1, but 2 special abilities. +1 bleed In all this guy is at least kinda close to the low end of IC. His 2 abilities will almost make up for the lack of 2 votes, and bleed ------------------------------------------------------------ #3 Augustus Giovanni: 11/11 -AUS DOM NEC POT cel pre -Augustus has 2 votes. If a vampire you control has been burned since your last turn, Augustus may move that vampire from your ash heap to the ready region as an action that costs 1 pool. +1 bleed 10 dis(equal) 2 votes(down 2) well, his special is an action, and it can be blocked cause he gets no inherent stealth, which is strange. Combine that with the fact that it has to be the turn after, and it loses a little of it's charm. It can still be nice to have around though. He's down 1 bleed so he is also somewhere near Gwendolyn. ------------------------------------------------------------- #4 Ezmerelda: 11/11 -ANI CHI FOR PRE dom tha -Ezmerelda has 2 votes. If Ezmerelda is ready during your untap phase, you may remove her from the game to gain 11 pool. +1 bleed. 10 dis(equal) 2 votes(down 2) A nice special ability, especially for late in the game. Still down the bleed. Somehow, they are all just short of being on equal ground with Gwendolyn, but only because I assume that their specials are worth 2 votes and a bleed. Maybe I am wrong for thinking folks would rather draw their Tijads, and keep the big bleed on their clan leaders, or play with possesion and take an additional 2 votes?

"Aaron" <roans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:7ab27d37.01061...@posting.google.com... > "Wes" <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:<9gl4d...@enews1.newsguy.com>... > > They should be equally as powerful I think. Why? Sure, they're mighty and all that, but they don't have the resources of the Camarilla at their disposal. > > An investment of 11 pool should be worth 11 pool, regardless of sect status. Perhaps it would be most useful to think of it in terms of power/cost by sect? The Camarilla has weaker young vampires, but the most powerful elders. The Sabbat doesn't have the sheer power among the older vampires, but the young ones are more combat-oriented, and more personally powerful. The independent vampires walk the line between the two. They do have more powerful elders than the Sabbat, but not nearly as powerful as the Camarilla. > Exactly, would you think it was okay paying 3 for the independent > hunting grounds, just because they are independent? No, so why pay > more for your 11 Caps(ie more more, for less powers) I dunno. Hardly ever use hunting grounds...I think they're mostly a waste of pool as it is. > Lets just look at Gwendolyn as our basis, because she is the worse IC, > as she has the same number of disciplines as Harrod, but no special > powers at all. > > aus CEL FOR POT PRE tha(10 points dis) 4 votes +2 bleed Well, except that she has all of the combat disciplines, along with presence, and in any reasonable deck that uses these disciplines, she's never going to fall prey to combat, unlike most of the other IC members. > #1 Ur-Shulgi, The Shepherd: 11/11 [snip] > 11 points dis(up by 1!) 2 votes(down by 2!) a special ability(too bad Commonly, votes are worth .5 capacity per vote. So he's even, has a special ability which is (unless Sudden Reversed) fairly useful for the Assamites. Maybe 1 point, maybe not. He's basically even with Gwendolyn, even counting the additional bleed she has. > #2 Sutekh, The Dark God: 11/11 > -NEC OBF PRE SER cel pot [snip] > 10 points of dis(tied) 2 votes(down by 2) Not 1, but 2 special Same thing on the votes. .5 apiece. I'd say he's as good as Gwendolyn, probably better. > #3 Augustus Giovanni: 11/11 [snip] > 10 dis(equal) 2 votes(down 2) well, his special is an action, and it Same on the votes again. > can be blocked cause he gets no inherent stealth, which is strange. No big deal, he can find some stealth, or you can take it after other actions have occurred. > Combine that with the fact that it has to be the turn after, and it > loses a little of it's charm. It can still be nice to have around You're not reading the card closely. It says *since* your last turn. IIRC, LSJ has indicated that this includes during the current turn. Damn nice special, if you can afford to have him take it, and not do something else like bleed the crap out of your prey. Minimum, he's tied with Gwendolyn. I'd say he's better. > #4 Ezmerelda: 11/11 > -ANI CHI FOR PRE dom tha > -Ezmerelda has 2 votes. If Ezmerelda is ready during your untap > phase, you may remove her from the game to gain 11 pool. +1 bleed. > > 10 dis(equal) 2 votes(down 2) A nice special ability, especially for > late in the game. Still down the bleed. I'd say she's better, even if only for the already discovered Minion Tap/self-Golconda trick. It seems to me that they're pretty well balanced, and the lack of votes/bleed is made up for either by their specials or disciplines, and is consistent with power structure of the WoD. Xian

"Xian" <xi...@NOSPAMwaste.org> wrote > > Why? Sure, they're mighty and all that, but they don't have the resources of > the Camarilla at their disposal. I don't think that's relevant for V:tES however... Neutrality should have its own rewards, and obviously there has been an attempt to show this with cards like the Banner and Free States Rant. > > > An investment of 11 pool should be worth 11 pool, regardless of sect status. > > Perhaps it would be most useful to think of it in terms of power/cost by sect? > > The Camarilla has weaker young vampires, but the most powerful elders. The > Sabbat doesn't have the sheer power among the older vampires, but the young ones > are more combat-oriented, and more personally powerful. The independent > vampires walk the line between the two. They do have more powerful elders than > the Sabbat, but not nearly as powerful as the Camarilla. I'd agree with that mostly. The Sabbat does have some seriously powerful elders but not many 'middle-managers' or ancillae. However, In V:tES terms, each clan, regardless of sect, should be equally playable and competitive compared to each and every other clan. Actually, each sect should also be playable and competitive, regardless of clan. Granted, designing cards that keep these power levels equivalent must be an incredibly difficult task. Who knows what future expansions will offer the independent clans/Sabbat/whatever? Now, I'm not convinced that the 11-caps are *useless*, nor do I think we really can tell until the full effects of this expansion are seen. I do like the 11-caps, I just think that they may be harder to use than their Camarilla cousins. If they had access to some of the Inner Circle nastiness, I might be more inclined to use them. The fact that they are rare doesn't help too much either. The fact that they are not Camarilla shouldn't stop them from having big bleeds or votes. Do you have any idea how much money the Giovanni can raise if needed? Think of Augustus not as an independent vampire but the equivalent to being the CEO of Microsoft. If Bill Gates were a vampire, how much would he bleed/vote for? Actually, bad example... people would try and diablerize him just because they hate Windows. > > Lets just look at Gwendolyn as our basis, because she is the worse IC, > > as she has the same number of disciplines as Harrod, but no special > > powers at all. > > > > aus CEL FOR POT PRE tha(10 points dis) 4 votes +2 bleed > > Well, except that she has all of the combat disciplines, along with presence, > and in any reasonable deck that uses these disciplines, she's never going to > fall prey to combat, unlike most of the other IC members. To be fair, she almost *never* gets used. That's the ultimate test of a vampire's utility. The magic number 11 doesn't mean much in and of itself. For me, it's a question of value. If Gwen here was a 8-cap, we'd all use her right? The Camarilla 11-caps however *do* have special cards that only they as IC can play, therefore they have extra value not obvious by looking only at the vampires themselves. > > #1 Ur-Shulgi, The Shepherd: 11/11 > [snip] > > 11 points dis(up by 1!) 2 votes(down by 2!) a special ability(too bad > > Commonly, votes are worth .5 capacity per vote. So he's even, has a special > ability which is (unless Sudden Reversed) fairly useful for the Assamites. > Maybe 1 point, maybe not. He's basically even with Gwendolyn, even counting the > additional bleed she has. He is a vicious combat-monster though... which would be nice if it were likely we could build a deck using more than one or two of him. Imagine 6 Ur-Shulgis and 6 Tariq the Silents, all rushing. Eesh. Too bad he's rare. > > #2 Sutekh, The Dark God: 11/11 > > -NEC OBF PRE SER cel pot > [snip] > > 10 points of dis(tied) 2 votes(down by 2) Not 1, but 2 special > > Same thing on the votes. .5 apiece. I'd say he's as good as Gwendolyn, > probably better. I suspect NEC will start to be seen as more than just a Giovanni-specific option. With the Sargon Fragment and the utility of Necromancy 'ressurrection' cards in general, I think we may see NEC showing up as a 'fifth wheel' concept in plenty of decks. Therefore, having NEC at superior may be worth a little more than a regular out-of-clan discipline. This remains to be seen though. Sutekh is also the best guy to play Free States Rant, because he can get away with it, both stealth-wise and vote-wise. If it isn't obvious, I'm really impressed with FSR. > > #3 Augustus Giovanni: 11/11 > [snip] > > 10 dis(equal) 2 votes(down 2) well, his special is an action, and it > > Same on the votes again. > > > can be blocked cause he gets no inherent stealth, which is strange. > > No big deal, he can find some stealth, or you can take it after other actions > have occurred. Yeah, and my recently posted combo of Seduction + Call of the Hungry Dead should stop people from blocking a lot of actions. > > Combine that with the fact that it has to be the turn after, and it > > loses a little of it's charm. It can still be nice to have around > > You're not reading the card closely. It says *since* your last turn. IIRC, LSJ > has indicated that this includes during the current turn. Damn nice special, if > you can afford to have him take it, and not do something else like bleed the > crap out of your prey. Is this true??? That makes a few cards much better... > > #4 Ezmerelda: 11/11 > > -ANI CHI FOR PRE dom tha > > -Ezmerelda has 2 votes. If Ezmerelda is ready during your untap > > phase, you may remove her from the game to gain 11 pool. +1 bleed. > > > > 10 dis(equal) 2 votes(down 2) A nice special ability, especially for > > late in the game. Still down the bleed. > > I'd say she's better, even if only for the already discovered Minion > Tap/self-Golconda trick. I think you'll find that this combo is played less than expected. It's an investment of at least 11 transfers (not insignificant), an appropriately-timed Minion Tap and the loss of a vampire. And if you're planning on doing this right from the get go, you're not going to have a lot of other vampires to do stuff with. I can see her being sacrificed as a last-ditch attempt to stay in a game but I can't see her being used pro-actively... often enough that it becomes a viable strategy anyway. > It seems to me that they're pretty well balanced, and the lack of votes/bleed is > made up for either by their specials or disciplines, and is consistent with > power structure of the WoD. Time will tell... but I think you'll find they're less valuable than the younger members of their respective clans. Of course, I'm also a big weenie-user (and some would say that I am also a 'big weenie'). Cheers, WES

On Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:41:24 -0500, "Xian" <xi...@NOSPAMwaste.org> wrote: >"Aaron" <roans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:7ab27d37.01061...@posting.google.com... >> Lets just look at Gwendolyn as our basis, because she is the worse IC, >> as she has the same number of disciplines as Harrod, but no special >> powers at all. >> aus CEL FOR POT PRE tha(10 points dis) 4 votes +2 bleed > >Well, except that she has all of the combat disciplines, along with presence, >and in any reasonable deck that uses these disciplines, she's never going to >fall prey to combat, unlike most of the other IC members. This needs to be clarified. The question you need to ask here is "What can you do with Gwendolyn?" to get a real idea of her strength. She has POT/FOR/CEL, which all combine to make a real ass-kicking. She has PRE, which bleeds well or votes well. Her aus/tha are largely irrelevant, as neither is especially notable at inferior. She has no stealth, however. She HAS to be a combat monkey, because Franciscus can play a single Spirit's Touch and stop her action; and who cares what happens to Franciscus? THIS is why she's the weakest IC member (as well as her lack of ANY special). It's good to keep this in mind. > #1 Ur-Shulgi, The Shepherd: 11/11 >-CEL DOM OBF QUI THA aus >[snip] >> 11 points dis(up by 1!) 2 votes(down by 2!) a special ability(too bad > >Commonly, votes are worth .5 capacity per vote. So he's even, has a special >ability which is (unless Sudden Reversed) fairly useful for the Assamites. >Maybe 1 point, maybe not. He's basically even with Gwendolyn, even counting the >additional bleed she has. BUT: more importantly, Ur-Sluggy has a much better discipline spread. CEL/QUI/THA is equally as nasty combat as POT/FOR/CEL. He has OBF, meaning that any action you'd like to take with him has a good chance of actually happening. He has DOM, meaning he can use either Obedience OR Govern + Conditioning. He is actually more powerful than Gwendolyn. I expect him to actually see some play... unlike Gwendolyn, whom I've never seen influenced YET. >> #2 Sutekh, The Dark God: 11/11 >> -NEC OBF PRE SER cel pot >[snip] >> 10 points of dis(tied) 2 votes(down by 2) Not 1, but 2 special > >Same thing on the votes. .5 apiece. I'd say he's as good as Gwendolyn, >probably better. He doesn't have fabulous combat with only cel/pot/SER, but he isn't exactly hurting either. But again, he has OBF; anything that he does will probably happen. He has PRE, the best vote discipline in the game, and he's the head of a voter clan. NEC provides access to an ENORMOUS pile of toys that are only available to the Giovanni. His two specials are far from corner-case. He's SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than Gwendolyn. >> #3 Augustus Giovanni: 11/11 >-AUS DOM NEC POT cel pre >[snip] >> 10 dis(equal) 2 votes(down 2) well, his special is an action, and it > >Same on the votes again. > >> can be blocked cause he gets no inherent stealth, which is strange. > >No big deal, he can find some stealth, or you can take it after other actions >have occurred. Or he can just beat your ass if you block him, since he's carrying POT/cel and the Giovanni happen to be a POT clan. He has Auspex, the premier intercept discipline. POT/DOM/AUS is, by the way, just a LITTLE BIT rare to find, and with good reason. He has superior Dominate, the premier discipline in the game. It happens to be an in-clan for him, but still - big guys with DOM can play Obedience, and you CANNOT sneer at that. >Minimum, he's tied with Gwendolyn. I'd say he's better. He's definitely better. AUS/DOM/NEC and AUS/POT/NEC are powerful combinations. >> #4 Ezmerelda: 11/11 >> -ANI CHI FOR PRE dom tha >> -Ezmerelda has 2 votes. If Ezmerelda is ready during your untap >> phase, you may remove her from the game to gain 11 pool. +1 bleed. >> >> 10 dis(equal) 2 votes(down 2) A nice special ability, especially for >> late in the game. Still down the bleed. > >I'd say she's better, even if only for the already discovered Minion >Tap/self-Golconda trick. Any special that reads "GAIN 11 POOL" outclasses Gwendolyn by a factor of, oh, 5 at the minimum. But as far as the disciplines are concerned... again, she has PRE, meaning that the Ravnos can actually vote somewhat. She has inferior Dominate, meaning she can use the bleed and play Obedience. >It seems to me that they're pretty well balanced, and the lack of votes/bleed is >made up for either by their specials or disciplines, and is consistent with >power structure of the WoD. Spot on. =) -- Derek

On 18 Jun 2001 15:09:15 -0700, roans...@yahoo.com (Aaron) wrote: >"Wes" <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:<9gl4d...@enews1.newsguy.com>... >> "oaflord" <oaf...@sprint.ca> >> > >> > I am wondering if people are complaining that the new 11's are >> underpowered >> > because they are comparing them to the Camarilla Inner Circles. Is that >> > truly a fair comparison? Should the 11's of the Camarilla be more >> powerful >> > than the Independent 11's? >> >> They should be equally as powerful I think. >> >> An investment of 11 pool should be worth 11 pool, regardless of sect status. > >Exactly, would you think it was okay paying 3 for the independent >hunting grounds, just because they are independent? No, so why pay >more for your 11 Caps(ie more more, for less powers) > >Lets just look at Gwendolyn as our basis, because she is the worse IC, >as she has the same number of disciplines as Harrod, but no special >powers at all. I simply prefer vampires that have no special powers. I think it's more Vampirish. Back in the day of jyhad, you didnt see every other vampire having a special power. That's what the library cards are for. I just think it's silly.

<snip> > > An investment of 11 pool should be worth 11 pool, regardless of sect status. > <snip> > #3 Augustus Giovanni: 11/11 > -AUS DOM NEC POT cel pre > -Augustus has 2 votes. If a vampire you control has been burned since > your > last turn, Augustus may move that vampire from your ash heap to the > ready region as an action that costs 1 pool. +1 bleed > > 10 dis(equal) 2 votes(down 2) well, his special is an action, and it > can be blocked cause he gets no inherent stealth, which is strange. > Combine that with the fact that it has to be the turn after, and it > loses a little of it's charm. It can still be nice to have around > though. He's down 1 bleed so he is also somewhere near Gwendolyn. And there is obsolutely no way for the Giovanni to bring this guy in play without having to invest 11 pool. ;-) Jeroen

o.k so some of you think that because the IC is more powerful in the RPG they IC 11 caps should be more powerful than the indy 11 caps. allthough that is a stupid argument (we are talking about a ccg here if you wanna roleplay you bought the wrong game) then to show you why the 11 caps really do suck lets compare them with some 10 cap indys vampires. > >> #2 Sutekh, The Dark God: 11/11 > >> -NEC OBF PRE SER cel pot Neferttiti 10/10 OBF,SER,PRE,DOM,cel,pot build in corruption action so nefertitti has almost the same disc spread exept DOM instead of NEC. she has also +1 bleed just lacks the votes dom is more usefull considering that the FoS lack intercept and deflections. also obidience in case of combat, here special is also better i would say. she is far superior that sutek (by the way i think sutek is the best new 11 cap) > > #1 Ur-Shulgi, The Shepherd: 11/11 > >-CEL DOM OBF QUI THA aus > >[snip] > >> 11 points dis(up by 1!) 2 votes(down by 2!) a special ability(too bad > > compare him to Thetmes CEL QUI OPF dom pot weaker disc spread but still o.k. 2 votes and great special or to Aziz CEL OBF QUI PRE ser 2 votes + ability to give him extra votes. +1 strenght > >> #4 Ezmerelda: 11/11 > >> -ANI CHI FOR PRE dom tha > >> -Ezmerelda has 2 votes. If Ezmerelda is ready during your untap > >> phase, you may remove her from the game to gain 11 pool. +1 bleed. > >> > >> 10 dis(equal) 2 votes(down 2) A nice special ability, especially for > >> late in the game. Still down the bleed. > > her special is not that good. it might help you during late games but as a pool gain machine it takes to much time to bring her out minion tap her and than remove her. since she is removed no possesion, no soul gem of etrius. if you want a pool gain machine then play Arika/Etrius/leandro+Gilbert duane/gregor andressen/murat and play MT+fifth tradition. and compare her to ivan krenyenko ANI/FOR/CHI/POT/obf + great special so the indy 11 caps are not only worse than the IC but also worse than the 10 caps from there clan. compare the 11 caps to moncada or lazverinus and you see how much they suck STefan

> > > An investment of 11 pool should be worth 11 pool, regardless of sect status. > > Perhaps it would be most useful to think of it in terms of power/cost by sect? > > The Camarilla has weaker young vampires, but the most powerful elders. The > Sabbat doesn't have the sheer power among the older vampires, but the young ones > are more combat-oriented, and more personally powerful. The independent > vampires walk the line between the two. They do have more powerful elders than > the Sabbat, but not nearly as powerful as the Camarilla. Blah. Wes is exactly right. What is it that people want to say: "it's like that because thats how it is in the RP game" but at the same time say: "it's it's own game, it's cards and needs it's own balance" 11 pool must justify it's relative expense, to other cards. Those expenses must be relative to the flavor of the clan they are in. If you were to, as an example, create a potence S:CE card that did the same thing as majesty, I would expect it to cost much more. Because it does not match the rest of the cards. But none of these "Outter Circle" members have anything they shouldn't, that would be reason to make them cost more for less results, sect be damned! > > Lets just look at Gwendolyn as our basis, because she is the worse IC, > > as she has the same number of disciplines as Harrod, but no special > > powers at all. > > > > aus CEL FOR POT PRE tha(10 points dis) 4 votes +2 bleed > > Well, except that she has all of the combat disciplines, along with presence, > and in any reasonable deck that uses these disciplines, she's never going to > fall prey to combat, unlike most of the other IC members. > > > #1 Ur-Shulgi, The Shepherd: 11/11 > [snip] > > 11 points dis(up by 1!) 2 votes(down by 2!) a special ability(too bad > > Commonly, votes are worth .5 capacity per vote. So he's even, has a special > ability which is (unless Sudden Reversed) fairly useful for the Assamites. > Maybe 1 point, maybe not. He's basically even with Gwendolyn, even counting the > additional bleed she has. Hmm..think relative to Gwen: +1(dis) -1(votes, by your scale) +1(special, again your scale) +2(bleed is 1 point each) Do the addition...+3...hmm..but he's basically even with gwendolyn? Compare Shulgi to al-ashrad and: 8 points dis(-3) no votes(-1), Similar special, +bleed (1 point) so you pay 2 pool to get a guy with a special you can only possibly use successfully once, and a net of 2 more points of dis. So at best they are equal in cost ratio. Do the same comparison with Gwen and Crusher, the 9 cap brujah. Wow gwen comes out 4.5 points higher! The IC are better then their clanmates,

On 19 Jun 2001 07:41:23 -0700, Ferenci...@hotmail.com (Stefan Ferenci) wrote: >o.k so some of you think that because the IC is more powerful in the >RPG they IC 11 caps should be more powerful than the >indy 11 caps. allthough that is a stupid argument (we are talking ACTUALLY, it's not, if you're talking about game balance. The Camarilla's strength is in its structure. The Inner Circle members represent that structure. The Sabbat's strength is in its combat, represented by vampires like Beast, Amelia, Ellen Fence, and the Tzimisce/Lasombra. The Independents have their own "niches" and are powerful appropriately. The Setites steal your vampires in a myriad of ways. The Ravnos will take your equipment, and are masters of manipulation (if you aren't messing with the table, you're playing them wrong) The Giovanni own both your AND their ash heap. The Assamites are all about burning vamps. Wouldn't it be boring if the Sabbat and Camarilla were just carbon copies of each other? If the Sabbat and Independents each had their own 5th Tradition, but by a different name? That doesn't provide any sort of variety, ... and would turn people away. Balance doesn't mean everything being the same. Balance means OVERALL balance. >> >> #2 Sutekh, The Dark God: 11/11 >> >> -NEC OBF PRE SER cel pot > >Neferttiti 10/10 >OBF,SER,PRE,DOM,cel,pot >build in corruption action > >so nefertitti has almost the same disc spread exept DOM instead of >NEC. >she has also +1 bleed just lacks the votes Correct. By current valuation, that's 1 point right there, so technically they're now right about even. >dom is more usefull considering that the FoS lack intercept and >deflections. also obidience in case of combat, Nefertiti is quite strong, yes. Dominate is never bad. >here special is also better i would say. she is far superior that >sutek (by the way i think sutek is the best new 11 cap) Her special, however, is NOT better, as you still need to play a Corruption/Venenation card to take control of the minion. It's nice to have a vampire with the ability out there, but really, if you are wasting a 10-cap's action on something you can accomplish with either an action card or action modifier, you may as well hang a sign on your neck reading "OUST ME PLEASE." Wouldn't you rather use her to play Legal Manipulations/Conditioning, with Lost in Crowds? So her special will almost never see use. Sutekh, on the other hand, can serve as a big 11-cap Hunting Ground for any other Setite, saving you 2 pool... AND he has an extra two votes... AND any Setite you control can recruit Bane Mummies on the cheap. I don't see how anyone can believe that Nefertiti compares in the slightest. She's great, but he's BETTER. >> > #1 Ur-Shulgi, The Shepherd: 11/11 >> >-CEL DOM OBF QUI THA aus >> >[snip] >> >> 11 points dis(up by 1!) 2 votes(down by 2!) a special ability(too bad >> > >compare him to Thetmes >CEL QUI OPF dom pot >weaker disc spread but still o.k. 2 votes and great special Superior Dominate is, frankly, superior - Thetmes can PLAY Obedience, but it isn't a very good option. Superior THA/CEL is absolutely brutal -- Minion Tap, enter combat, Theft/Blur/Theft/Theft. And inferior Auspex means he can play the AUS cards that are floating around with Parnassus and others... >or to Aziz >CEL OBF QUI PRE ser >2 votes + ability to give him extra votes. >+1 strenght Presence is entertaining, but doesn't fit well inside the clan. Serpentis is WAY out. And he has to BURN people to get extra votes - while that's not impossible with the Assamites, it's not easy, either. I don't really see any problems here, frankly. The bigger guys are stronger. Not by lots, but hell, Thetmes *is* a 10-cap... only one less pool. >> >> #4 Ezmerelda: 11/11 >> >> -ANI CHI FOR PRE dom tha >> >> -Ezmerelda has 2 votes. If Ezmerelda is ready during your untap >> >> phase, you may remove her from the game to gain 11 pool. +1 bleed. >> >> >> >> 10 dis(equal) 2 votes(down 2) A nice special ability, especially for >> >> late in the game. Still down the bleed. >> > >her special is not that good. it might help you during late games but >as a pool gain machine it takes to much time to bring her out minion >tap her and than remove her. You've never seen Minion Tap/BO/Awe/Voter Captivation? That *is* superior Presence she has there. Do that with her a few times, bring out some other Ravnos, and then just let her sit there after a Minion Tap and be two votes. If you ever get low on pool, blow her away for an instant 11-pool gain. Ezmerelda is BRUTALLY good. >since she is removed no possesion, no soul gem of etrius. >if you want a pool gain machine then play Arika/Etrius/leandro+Gilbert >duane/gregor andressen/murat and play MT+fifth tradition. Arika and Leandro need to be just MT/BO/Awe/Voter Capping, instead of pissing around trying to get a second vampire (total investment: 18 pool) to take a 5th tradition action. And I suppose you've never seen someone's Prince get blown away and diablerized to stop it? It's a lot harder to get rid of Ezmerelda than to get rid of Gilbert. > and compare her to ivan krenyenko >ANI/FOR/CHI/POT/obf + great special great? big deal, you can go fetch a NON-LOCATION piece of equipment that you STILL have to take an action to equip with. He has no votes. He has no bleed bonus. He has no voter disciplines. He has superior Potence, which is WAY out of clan for them. Sorry, Ezzie is STILL the shit. >so the indy 11 caps are not only worse than the IC but also worse than >the 10 caps from there clan. > >compare the 11 caps to moncada or lazverinus and you see how much they >suck Then you won't mind trading me all of your 11-caps for common cards from FN, will you? Since they suck so much? -- Derek

In message <9gmlj...@enews3.newsguy.com>, Wes <gh...@mnsi.net> writes >> > #2 Sutekh, The Dark God: 11/11 >> > -NEC OBF PRE SER cel pot >> [snip] >> > 10 points of dis(tied) 2 votes(down by 2) Not 1, but 2 special >> >> Same thing on the votes. .5 apiece. I'd say he's as good as Gwendolyn, >> probably better. > >I suspect NEC will start to be seen as more than just a Giovanni-specific >option. With the Sargon Fragment and the utility of Necromancy >'ressurrection' cards in general, I think we may see NEC showing up as a >'fifth wheel' concept in plenty of decks. Don't forget Dedefra. (5, SER obf nec, +1HD vs Cam) [ quoted text not captured ]

Ferenci...@hotmail.com (Stefan Ferenci) wrote in message news:<d0088a83.01061...@posting.google.com>... > o.k so some of you think that because the IC is more powerful in the > RPG they IC 11 caps should be more powerful than the > indy 11 caps. allthough that is a stupid argument (we are talking > about a ccg here if you wanna roleplay you bought the wrong game) > then to show you why the 11 caps really do suck lets compare them with > some 10 cap indys vampires. I hope you have some form of protection against fire... last time I posted something similar here I was caught totally by susprise. But I did agree with you mostly! It´s good to see that I am not the only one who sees things like this. The new 11caps are less powerfull than all IC members but maybe Gwendolyn and Harrod. It´s not like they are useless. Underpowered is NOT useless. And about all that camarilla structure giving the IC more influence and power so they should be more powerfull stuff; it WOULD be true if 2 of the new 11caps were not Antedeluvians. And after thinking and reading more posts here (even my flamers made me look at some things a different way). The only mistake WW clearly made was to make Antedeluvian 11caps. Yes, a mistake, in my opinion. First: I know this is a card game, but it is a card game BASED on an RPG. And WW is explicitly trying to attract more gamers to VTES by giving the card game more and more elements, looks and characters from the WOD. So yes, criticism toward the 11caps based on the RPG background of the game is perfectly reasonable. It would be VERY easy, as someone has already pointed out in another thread, to simply make a Giovanni 11cap and call him Alberto Giovanni or whatever. And they could make the 11cap Setite one of the Hierophants of Eternals of Sothis (some very OLD childer of Set), or at least call the card an Avatar of Sutekh, since he IS considered a God by his followers, and all antedeluvians have godlike power. For those peoplo who play VTES and never heard of the game, it does not make su much of a difference, but i think the majority of players DO play tabletop Vampire, so it does make a difference. I had also pointed out various reasons why the 10caps are better when compared to the 11caps. And again, like I said, the 11caps are not useless, but if not for the fun factor, some 10caps are REALLY a better investment of pool. After thinking some more I actually began to think that having +1 bleed instead of +2 bleed is BETTER for them. Any Camarilla vote deck is STILL better than any independent vote deck. So if you have say, a Brujah vote deck, you can easily get vote lock over say, a Setite vote deck. So it would be very easy to simply Justicar Retribution the independent 11caps out of the game if they had +2 bleed. So having +1 bleed actually saves their ass somewhat. Independnt vote decks have a much harder time using Justicar Retribution on IC members, if for no other reason (and there ARE other reasons), because the IC have 4 votes to begin with. If I were to build a Setite vote deck, I would prefer including Arika instead of Sutekh. She has PRE and OBF, more votes, FOR and aus which help a LOT defending herself. And not every minion I have out needs SER, by the time I get her out I will certainly have another minion with SER. Plus her extra votes save me a Bewitching Oration or two. And why did they not give Ur-Shulgi +1 bleed like the others? Because he has an extra discipline level? Come on! No one uses 6 disciplines in a deck. Everyone HAS to bleed at least once or twice with every deck. The extra +1 bleed could help make your prey decide to block him, so you could pummel his minions out of existence. And when you want to bleed, +1 bleed is +1 bleed!

> <snip> >>> An investment of 11 pool should be worth 11 pool, regardless of sect > status. >> > <snip> >> #3 Augustus Giovanni: 11/11 >> -AUS DOM NEC POT cel pre >> -Augustus has 2 votes. If a vampire you control has been burned since >> your >> last turn, Augustus may move that vampire from your ash heap to the >> ready region as an action that costs 1 pool. +1 bleed >> >> 10 dis(equal) 2 votes(down 2) well, his special is an action, and it >> can be blocked cause he gets no inherent stealth, which is strange. >> Combine that with the fact that it has to be the turn after, "During your current turn" is still "since your last turn." The wording is funny, though. If a vampire "has been burned since your last turn," and Augustus is moving that vampire "from your ash heap," how can it possibly be "a vampire you control?" Maybe it should be "controllED?" >> and it >> loses a little of it's charm. It can still be nice to have around >> though. He's down 1 bleed so he is also somewhere near Gwendolyn. > > And there is obsolutely no way for the Giovanni to bring this guy in play > without having to invest 11 pool. ;-) Might of the Camarilla and then Possession? (Sprinkle with Daemonic Possession, add salt, and stir. To appear soon enough in a newsletter near you. =) Ok, they need help, then, just like the Goodnight, Sweet Prince trick, but the Daemonic Possession trick makes it more fun, grabbing duplicates of guys that nobody influenced out, and contesting them. =) -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

In message <B755352F.4A7E%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> writes >> And there is obsolutely no way for the Giovanni to bring this guy in play >> without having to invest 11 pool. ;-) > > Might of the Camarilla and then Possession? You need a Justicar or Inner Circle member for Might of the Camarilla, which makes it much more tricky. [ quoted text not captured ]

Pat Ricochet wrote: > "During your current turn" is still "since your last turn." The wording > is funny, though. If a vampire "has been burned since your last turn," and > Augustus is moving that vampire "from your ash heap," how can it possibly be > "a vampire you control?" Maybe it should be "controllED?" controllED wouldn't do, though, since you must have been the controller of the vampire at the time it was burned, not merely at some time prior to his burning. As in Provision of Silsilia, the phrasing is warranted and applicable. "A vampire is burned while under your control" = "A vampire you control is burned". To make that past tense, you end up with the phrasing used. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> In message <B755352F.4A7E%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, Pat Ricochet > <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> writes >>> And there is obsolutely no way for the Giovanni to bring this guy in play >>> without having to invest 11 pool. ;-) >> >> Might of the Camarilla and then Possession? > > You need a Justicar or Inner Circle member for Might of the Camarilla, > which makes it much more tricky. Well, of course, but that's what makes it a "deck idea" instead of just a "module." Isn't it worth getting a free 11-cap, though? I think it's also spurred on by the fact that I'm tired of Ventrue sleaze, but I miss influencing Democritus out, so I needed a Democritus/Giovanni deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

<...> > > > > And there is obsolutely no way for the Giovanni to bring this guy in play > > without having to invest 11 pool. ;-) > > Might of the Camarilla and then Possession? (Sprinkle with Daemonic > Possession, add salt, and stir. To appear soon enough in a newsletter near > you. =) Won't cut it. MotC needs a Justicar or IC member Ok, they need help, then, just like the Goodnight, Sweet Prince > trick, but the Daemonic Possession trick makes it more fun, grabbing > duplicates of guys that nobody influenced out, and contesting them. =) > GNSP decks DO work (sometimes.) Paying a MA + 2 pool + an action to get an 11 cap seems worth it. The giovanni also have more stealth (or diminish intercept/ blocking attempt fails) then before, so there's no need for Carlotta to appear every time. Of course, you need a ravnos weenie on your first turn. Jeroen

In message <B7554290.4A90%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> writes > Well, of course, but that's what makes it a "deck idea" instead of just >a "module." Isn't it worth getting a free 11-cap, though? If you go the IC route for MotC, why not just spend the 11 in the first place? Getting a Justicar is either a 9 cap (Sheldon), or many moving parts (votes). [ quoted text not captured ]

"Wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote in message news:9gmlj...@enews3.newsguy.com... > > "Xian" <xi...@NOSPAMwaste.org> wrote > > > > Why? Sure, they're mighty and all that, but they don't have the resources of > > the Camarilla at their disposal. > > I don't think that's relevant for V:tES however... Dog poo aside, I like that WW is trying to make it relevant (I think?). As Derek points out elsewhere, the Independent clans do their own thing, and have never had any claims to being excellent at voting/bleeding...which is the Camarilla's stock-in-trade. > Neutrality should have its own rewards, and obviously there has been an > attempt to show this with cards like the Banner and Free States Rant. Agreed. However, this doesn't mean that every single vampire of the same capacity needs to be *exactly* balanced with all of the other vampires of that capacity. A lot of the specials are hard to quantify...Sutekh's for example, rock, IMO. Other people don't think so. That's cool. > However, In V:tES terms, each clan, regardless of sect, should be equally > playable and competitive compared to each and every other clan. Actually, > each sect should also be playable and competitive, regardless of clan. But they shouldn't all be cookie-cutter copies, either. 4 votes and +2 bleed is just that. The IC members' specials aren't really clan specific (with the exception of Alexandra, and possibly Harrod), but the Independent 11-caps' *do* advance some of the main strategies of their respective clans (Ezmerelda excepted, and her special is the best). Variation is good. Serpentis should not equal Dominate, which, in turn, should not equal Obtenebration. Sect shouldn't matter quite as much, but I think that they already *do* grant perfectly good unique advantages by sect. > The fact that they are not Camarilla shouldn't stop them from having big > bleeds or votes. Do you have any idea how much money the Giovanni can raise > if needed? Think of Augustus not as an independent vampire but the What was that about the backstory not being relevant for V:tES? :) Yeah, the Giovanni apparently have their hand in all sorts of mortal affairs, equalling the Ventrue, if not the Camarilla as a whole. This doesn't mean that Augustus Giovanni himself (possibly not an Antediluvian as Halcyan notes) can command all of it at once according to his personal whim. Perhaps this is what their shitpiles of allies represent? As another note, Sutekh, need not be the Antediluvian that people are all up in arms about...perhaps it's just some badass using the "Old Friends" power? Maybe it's just his loyalty, as someone else posited? I know know, but I don't think that the 11 caps are the worst thing ever. [Gwendolyn] > To be fair, she almost *never* gets used. That's the ultimate test of a > vampire's utility. Hey, I wasn't the one that brought her up. :) And I think that Harrod is probably the worst, anyway. > The magic number 11 doesn't mean much in and of itself. For me, it's a > question of value. If Gwen here was a 8-cap, we'd all use her right? The Maybe... > > > #2 Sutekh, The Dark God: 11/11 > I suspect NEC will start to be seen as more than just a Giovanni-specific > option. With the Sargon Fragment and the utility of Necromancy > 'ressurrection' cards in general, I think we may see NEC showing up as a Yeah, I think so too...there are a few Setites with it, and it'd be entertaining to keep all that Corrupt-y goodness coming back (without having to use Carlotta!). > > > #4 Ezmerelda: 11/11 > > I'd say she's better, even if only for the already discovered Minion > > Tap/self-Golconda trick. > > I think you'll find that this combo is played less than expected. It's an > investment of at least 11 transfers (not insignificant), an Zillah's Valley/ToR3? I don't think it'll be all the rage, or anything, but I think that we'll all see it sooner or later. She's still go pretty well in a Ventrue PRE/FOR deck, and those are hell for Minion Tapping... > pro-actively... often enough that it becomes a viable strategy anyway. Oh, I wouldn't call it a strategy, just an extra trick. > Time will tell... but I think you'll find they're less valuable than the > younger members of their respective clans. I don't know about that...but I'm about to head into that with someone else right now... Xian

"Stefan Ferenci" <Ferenci...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:d0088a83.01061...@posting.google.com... > o.k so some of you think that because the IC is more powerful in the > RPG they IC 11 caps should be more powerful than the > indy 11 caps. allthough that is a stupid argument (we are talking > about a ccg here if you wanna roleplay you bought the wrong game) Who's talking about role-playing? That's for *crazy* Malkavians. Anyway, the CCG is/has been attempting to bring in White Wolf's storyline. I'm just pointing this out. > then to show you why the 11 caps really do suck lets compare them with > some 10 cap indys vampires. Show away. > > >> #2 Sutekh, The Dark God: 11/11 > > >> -NEC OBF PRE SER cel pot > > Neferttiti 10/10 > OBF,SER,PRE,DOM,cel,pot > build in corruption action > > so nefertitti has almost the same disc spread exept DOM instead of NEC. > she has also +1 bleed just lacks the votes > dom is more usefull considering that the FoS lack intercept and > deflections. also obidience in case of combat, How many other vampires have dominate combined with either presence or obfuscate? Now, how many of them have necromancy and obfuscate or serpentis? I'd say that Sutekh is more useful because he extends the Setite penchant for necromancy, and fits in well with some Giovanni decks. > here special is also better i would say. she is far superior that > sutek (by the way i think sutek is the best new 11 cap) Her special is pretty cool, but it doesn't get you pool or allow you to switch blood around. Next? > > > #1 Ur-Shulgi, The Shepherd: 11/11 > > >-CEL DOM OBF QUI THA aus > > >[snip] > > >> 11 points dis(up by 1!) 2 votes(down by 2!) a special ability(too bad > > > > compare him to Thetmes > CEL QUI OPF dom pot > weaker disc spread but still o.k. 2 votes and great special Yeah, definitely weaker disciplines, and yes, his special is really cool. Ur-Shulgi's fits into the backstory, and he doesn't *need* to duplicate Thetmes' special, he's already huge and nasty. > or to Aziz > CEL OBF QUI PRE ser > 2 votes + ability to give him extra votes. > +1 strenght Oh, please. PRE doesn't help the Assamites much, nor does ser, and we don't really need that many more Assamites with +1 strength. Ur-Shulgi stacks up just fine against Aziz, and could hand him his butt on a plate. > > >> #4 Ezmerelda: 11/11 > > >> -ANI CHI FOR PRE dom tha > > >> -Ezmerelda has 2 votes. If Ezmerelda is ready during your untap > > >> phase, you may remove her from the game to gain 11 pool. +1 bleed. > > her special is not that good. it might help you during late games but > as a pool gain machine it takes to much time to bring her out minion > tap her and than remove her. It really doesn't take that long. A while, but not as long as you are thinking. It's entertaining, and it's vastly different from any other minion's special. It could be a lifesaver. I don't know, I just like it. > since she is removed no possesion, no soul gem of etrius. > if you want a pool gain machine then play Arika/Etrius/leandro+Gilbert > duane/gregor andressen/murat and play MT+fifth tradition. That's an odd combo. OBF/DOM Minion Tap +5th, huh? Seems a little convoluted. Doesn't it take too much time? :) > and compare her to ivan krenyenko > ANI/FOR/CHI/POT/obf + great special Which great special? +1 strength is nice, but his special is pretty mundane. Maybe if he could actually equip with it during your untap phase... Yeah, Ivan is just what I need...a 10-cap with FOR/POT, +1 strength, and he can find me guns! Woo-hoo. I'm sure he'll see a lot of use. </sarcasm> > so the indy 11 caps are not only worse than the IC but also worse than > the 10 caps from there clan. Hardly. They're about on par with the less-than-uberpowerful IC members, and they're cooler than their associated 10 capacity clanmates, if you ask me. > compare the 11 caps to moncada or lazverinus and you see how much they > suck Why don't you point out how they suck in comparison, and I'll show you how they don't? Oh, fine. Moncada has 4 superiors (DOM OBT POT PRE), and 2 inferiors (aus for). His inferior auspex is (virtually) useless, as he cannot block. His special is cool, and he has 3 votes, but that's to be expected. Lazvernius has 4 superiors (AUS DOM FOR POT), and pro. He has +2 strength which is cool, but can you afford to be beating things up with a 10 pool investment? Maybe. 2 votes. Fine. Ezmerelda ties or beats both of them on disciplines, and has +1 bleed, basically the same on votes. She's better, not even counting her special. Same with Augustus, and his special is way cool. Huh. Same thing with Sutekh. Ur-Shulgi beats both of them on disciplines, is tied on votes, and has an okay special. Looks like they outclass Moncada and Lazvernius on a points-based system to me. Perhaps you're stating that Lazvernius and Moncada are better based on your play style? Nah, that couldn't be it. Xian

"Xian" <xi...@NOSPAMwaste.org> > > But they shouldn't all be cookie-cutter copies, either. 4 votes and +2 > bleed is just that. The IC members' specials aren't really clan specific > (with the exception of Alexandra, and possibly Harrod), but the Independent > 11-caps' *do* advance some of the main strategies of their respective clans > (Ezmerelda excepted, and her special is the best). Variation is good. > Serpentis should not equal Dominate, which, in turn, should not equal > Obtenebration. Sect shouldn't matter quite as much, but I think that they > already *do* grant perfectly good unique advantages by sect. Well... I really think that every clan should be equally playable against any other and ultimately I guess that means every discipline should also be equally playable. That's the ideal... the reality is that it is impossible to tell how everything adds up until the cards hit the table (actually months... years after). There are so many combinations and permutations that I realize it is a pipe dream to expect too much balance. However... frankly, the game *is* extremely balanced as is and this in itself is an incredible task. It only takes one goof-off to design a Return to Innocence that throws the whole game in disorder. The design team should be commended for keeping the game playable--especially making the Independents playable. Kudos. I realize you're far more likely to see complaints on the newsgroup than compliments, but I for one am *extremely* pleased and impressed with Final Nights as a whole. May all the expansions be this well done... (and *will* be if you put me *on* the design team hint hint :) > What was that about the backstory not being relevant for V:tES? :) Yeah, > the Giovanni apparently have their hand in all sorts of mortal affairs, > equalling the Ventrue, if not the Camarilla as a whole. This doesn't mean > that Augustus Giovanni himself (possibly not an Antediluvian as Halcyan > notes) can command all of it at once according to his personal whim. > Perhaps this is what their shitpiles of allies represent? From the rulebook: "Conceptually, taking a bleed action represents the efforts of your minion to undermine the power and influence of the target Methuselah. You might picture bleeding as paying bribes, changing bank records, spreading rumors, etc. " Therefore, Giovanni should have as much 'bleed-ability' to compare to Ventrue. Similarly, the Assamites or Ravnos would have very little. It's all 'dog-poo' though you're right. I'm really thinking more in terms of game-mechanics though. I just use the Giovanni to illustrate that they should be able to 'hold their own' against any other clan by using their unique combination of powers, influence, whatevers. It shouldn't matter that the Ravnos are decimated or the Tremere Antitribu are pillars of ash in Mexico City. Any player who wants to use a clan should be able to and on equal ground with any other. This is partly why I like the idea of the Bloodlines expansion (to a point). They all have their niche and nobody can really say that one clan is really stronger than any other. > As another note, Sutekh, need not be the Antediluvian that people are all up > in arms about...perhaps it's just some badass using the "Old Friends" power? > Maybe it's just his loyalty, as someone else posited? I know know, but I > don't think that the 11 caps are the worst thing ever. An interesting thought: Is it possible that the Gangrel and Setites are part of the same bloodline? Consider the two signature disciplines Protean and Serpentis. Level One Protean allows you to glow red and see in the dark (Gleam of Red Eyes) Level One Serpentis allows your eyes to mesmerize others (Eyes of the Serpent) Level Two Protean allows you to use your claws to cause aggravated wounds (Wolf Claws) Level Two Serpentis allows you to use your tongue to... umm... cause aggravated wounds (Tongue of the Serpent) Level Three Protean allows you to sink into the ground for safety (Earth Meld) Level Three Serpentis (the old version) allows you to mummify yourself for protection (Mummify or Bitumenous Skin or some silly name) Level Four Protean allows you to change into a bat or wolf (Form of the Beast I think) Level Four Serpentis allows you to change into a big snake (Form of the Serpent) Level Five Protean allows you to change into a mist (Form of Mist) Level Five Serpentis allows you to take out your heart and put it in a canopic jar... ok, so level five ruins my thesis. Interesting, no? Other legends attribute Ravnos (the *original* Ravnos) as being the sire of the Gangrel antedilluvean, as well as being 2nd generation not 3rd. Just thought I'd add that for those of you who are interested... not that it impacts on V:tES at all [standard but necessary disclaimer]. Cheers, WES

Wes <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote: >"Conceptually, taking a bleed action represents the efforts of your minion >to undermine the power and influence of the target Methuselah. You might >picture bleeding as paying bribes, changing bank records, spreading rumors, >etc. " > >Therefore, Giovanni should have as much 'bleed-ability' to compare to >Ventrue. Perhaps even a special discipline that's great for bleeding? Like, say, dominate? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Johan Lundstrom <jo...@algonet.se> "Knowledge is power. Power corrupts."

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: cbtuitgdcojjmjhkf...@4ax.com... > On 19 Jun 2001 07:41:23 -0700, Ferenci...@hotmail.com (Stefan > Ferenci) wrote: > > >o.k so some of you think that because the IC is more powerful in the > >RPG they IC 11 caps should be more powerful than the > >indy 11 caps. allthough that is a stupid argument (we are talking > > ACTUALLY, it's not, if you're talking about game balance. > I am talking about game balance and wes is absolutly right when saying that 11 pool invested should bring you the same value no matter which clan the vamp belongs too. the 11 caps would be fine if they had 4 votes and +2 bleed > The Camarilla's strength is in its structure. The Inner Circle > members represent that structure. > > The Sabbat's strength is in its combat, represented by vampires like > Beast, Amelia, Ellen Fence, and the Tzimisce/Lasombra. so i guess wynn should be a sabbat vampire to and since they have a weaker structure their polititians should be less powerfull. so maybe archbishops should only have one vote and cardinals only have two votes. > > So her special will almost never see use. Sutekh, on the other hand, > can serve as a big 11-cap Hunting Ground for any other Setite, saving > you 2 pool... AND he has an extra two votes... AND any Setite you > control can recruit Bane Mummies on the cheap. you have to remove 1 blood from sutek each turn if you use him as a HG while HG give your vamps one blood from the blood bank. > I don't see how anyone can believe that Nefertiti compares in the > slightest. She's great, but he's BETTER. > well i think she is better while costing one less pool > >or to Aziz > >CEL OBF QUI PRE ser > >2 votes + ability to give him extra votes. > >+1 strenght > > Presence is entertaining, but doesn't fit well inside the clan. > Serpentis is WAY out. And he has to BURN people to get extra votes - > while that's not impossible with the Assamites, it's not easy, either. > presence would give the assamites much needed bleed capacities and AZIZ could play temptations and other assamites could use Qui to reduce that vbamps blood. > I don't really see any problems here, frankly. The bigger guys are > stronger. Not by lots, but hell, Thetmes *is* a 10-cap... only one > less pool. but ur shugli should be stronger not thetmes > > Arika and Leandro need to be just MT/BO/Awe/Voter Capping, instead of > pissing around trying to get a second vampire (total investment: 18 > pool) to take a 5th tradition action. And I suppose you've never seen > someone's Prince get blown away and diablerized to stop it? It's a > lot harder to get rid of Ezmerelda than to get rid of Gilbert. if you use awe you have to burn blood so you can´t remove ten blood from your vamp and one pulled strings and all your effort is wasted. while gilbert with 5th tradtion+ Forgotten labyrinth+ Elder impersonation (if nedded) is very rarely blocked . > >so the indy 11 caps are not only worse than the IC but also worse than > >the 10 caps from there clan. > > > >compare the 11 caps to moncada or lazverinus and you see how much they > >suck > > Then you won't mind trading me all of your 11-caps for common cards > from FN, will you? Since they suck so much? not for commons but for other FN rares yes why not the only one i will ever use is sutek and even if they suck they are still R1 and a lot of (imo stupid) people think that they are so super powerfull that they are needed no matter what cost. by the way i think it is a stupid idea to make vamps rares i nice aspect of jyhad VTES was that all vamps where quite easy to get and a lot of new players like the idea of playing with big powerfull vamps more than playing with small weenie vamps so please WW never make Vamps rare again Stefan > > -- Derek

"Johan Lundstrom" <jo...@algonet.se> wrote > >Therefore, Giovanni should have as much 'bleed-ability' to compare to > >Ventrue. > > Perhaps even a special discipline that's great for bleeding? Like, > say, dominate? ;-) No. That is an inherent discipline of the Giovanni. While I am sure it helps them control their financial empire, it does not mean that Dominate represents their financial prowess. Otherwise, I suppose the Malkavians are also rulers of an even vaster financial empire.

Wes wrote: > "Johan Lundstrom" <jo...@algonet.se> wrote > > >Therefore, Giovanni should have as much 'bleed-ability' to compare to > > >Ventrue. > > > > Perhaps even a special discipline that's great for bleeding? Like, > > say, dominate? ;-) > > No. That is an inherent discipline of the Giovanni. While I am sure it helps What bleed-ability to you see that the Ventrue have beyond their inherent disciplines? Political Ally, that's about it. Not exactly tipping the scales there. > them control their financial empire, it does not mean that Dominate > represents their financial prowess. Otherwise, I suppose the Malkavians are > also rulers of an even vaster financial empire. While a vast financial empire /may/ help you bleed better, being masters at bleeding doesn't necessarily imply a vast financial empire. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:09:36 +0200, "Ferenci Stefan" <a950...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: >cbtuitgdcojjmjhkf...@4ax.com... >> >> ACTUALLY, it's not, if you're talking about game balance. >> >I am talking about game balance and wes is absolutly right when saying that >11 pool invested should bring you the same value no matter which clan the >vamp belongs too. >the 11 caps would be fine if they had 4 votes and +2 bleed Harrod isn't fine, and he has 4 votes and +2 bleed. I suspect you all would complain even if the Independents did. However, simply put, the 4 votes and +2 bleed are representative of the structure and organization of the Camarilla. The Sabbat gains its power in different fashions (witness Cailean and Lazverinus, titled combat monsters). >> The Camarilla's strength is in its structure. The Inner Circle >> members represent that structure. >> >> The Sabbat's strength is in its combat, represented by vampires like >> Beast, Amelia, Ellen Fence, and the Tzimisce/Lasombra. > >so i guess wynn should be a sabbat vampire to and since they have a weaker >structure their polititians should be less powerfull. so maybe archbishops >should only have one vote and cardinals only have two votes. Wynn is a 10-cap. Note that I mentioned two 7-caps and an 8-cap available to the Sabbat. Further note that Wynn's special is somewhat limited to predator/prey (and Wynn came from the original Jyhad set, before the Sabbat was even in the picture). Theo Bell is a 7-cap, yes, but Beast would win in a straight-up fight between the two. (same disciplines, Beast has +1 strength). Theo's -real- advantages are the free diablerie, and the ability to do OTHER things besides fight... such as bleed with his Dominate, something Beast will never be able to do. Note the difference? Sabbat voting is already less powerful. They have no access to the Traditions, an important Prince/Justicar backbone. Their titled vampires are more expensive, fewer, and far between. Their Priscus vote is strong, but easily subverted - and to create more Cardinals, you must influence MORE 7-cap vampires. An Embrace can become a Justicar, and the number of cheap Princes running around is enormous compared to the Sabbat Archbishops. >> So her special will almost never see use. Sutekh, on the other hand, >> can serve as a big 11-cap Hunting Ground for any other Setite, saving >> you 2 pool... AND he has an extra two votes... AND any Setite you >> control can recruit Bane Mummies on the cheap. > >you have to remove 1 blood from sutek each turn if you use him as a HG while >HG give your vamps one blood from the blood bank. Saving you the need to Minion Tap Sutekh, which currently you need to do to ANY 11-cap you play with. And tell me again how hard it is for Sutekh with OBF/PRE to call a vote with Bribes and Bewitching Oration, and play Voter Cap to refill himself? Especially if it's a "nice" vote like Autarkis Persecution or Con Boon? >> I don't see how anyone can believe that Nefertiti compares in the >> slightest. She's great, but he's BETTER. >> >well i think she is better while costing one less pool That isn't good enough. You need to give some reasons if you're going to make blanket statements like "is better". If you have strong opinions, back them UP, man. >> >or to Aziz >> >CEL OBF QUI PRE ser >> >2 votes + ability to give him extra votes. >> >+1 strenght >> >> Presence is entertaining, but doesn't fit well inside the clan. >> Serpentis is WAY out. And he has to BURN people to get extra votes - >> while that's not impossible with the Assamites, it's not easy, either. >> >presence would give the assamites much needed bleed capacities and AZIZ >could play temptations and other assamites could use Qui to reduce that >vbamps blood. Why not just put Presence skill cards on your Assamites if you're that desperate for bleed? If you're going to have Aziz bleed and everyone else piss around, what will you do if you don't get Aziz in your opening crypt? And if you are going to get a 9-cap with inferior Serpentis out JUST to chuck around Temptations... well, congrats, you have a losing deck strategy there. Why not just get Lalitha, the 2-cap? Or Khalil Anvari, the 3-cap with ser/obf? >> I don't really see any problems here, frankly. The bigger guys are >> stronger. Not by lots, but hell, Thetmes *is* a 10-cap... only one >> less pool. > >but ur shugli should be stronger not thetmes And he is. Of course, you don't give any reasons that I haven't refuted. You need to do more than just repeat yourself louder, you need to actually try to DEBATE. Look at all the Assamites with THA/CEL or tha/CEL... Ur-Shulgi fits just FINE at the top of that heap. Minion Tap everyone as they come out, leave just enough for them to pay for a Blur, and they can refill off your opponents' vampires. Theft/Blur/Theft/Theft is a little card intensive, but not too bad. And Psyche! is always nice to have around to avoid that first S:CE. Include 4 Taste of Death in the deck, and you can replace that third strike with 2 points of agg. Empty vampires don't pay for Skin of Steel... >> Arika and Leandro need to be just MT/BO/Awe/Voter Capping, instead of >> pissing around trying to get a second vampire (total investment: 18 >> pool) to take a 5th tradition action. And I suppose you've never seen >> someone's Prince get blown away and diablerized to stop it? It's a >> lot harder to get rid of Ezmerelda than to get rid of Gilbert. > >if you use awe you have to burn blood so you can´t remove ten blood from >your vamp and one pulled strings and all your effort is wasted. while >gilbert with 5th tradtion+ Forgotten labyrinth+ Elder impersonation (if >nedded) is very rarely blocked . Oh no, you'll only have to remove eight blood from your vamp. OH NO. WHAT WILL YOU DO. And Pulling Strings is not the most commonly seen card, when you get right down to it. Delaying Tactics is, but shit happens... everything has a counter. Gilbert doesn't have to be blocked. All I need is for Beast, Theo Bell, Ellen Fence, or any 7-cap with a Rush card handy to go kick Gilbert's ass. Shame about him not being able to play Obedience. Have you NEVER seen combat before? >> Then you won't mind trading me all of your 11-caps for common cards >> from FN, will you? Since they suck so much? > >not for commons but for other FN rares yes why not the only one i will ever >use is sutek Oh no. I don't trade non-sucky rares for sucky rares. If those rares suck so much, then you'll have to take commons for them. SORRY, CHARLIE. Oh wait, maybe they DON'T suck after all? >and even if they suck they are still R1 and a lot of (imo stupid) people >think that they are so super powerfull that they are needed no matter what No, I don't think they're super powerful. I think they're right about balanced at 11. I think that Arika and Leandro are super-powerful and probably should've cost MORE than 11, in comparison. And Gwendolyn and Harrod should've cost less. But that's all long ago. Going by the current points scale, Arika (DOM FOR PRE OBF aus cel) has: 8 points of superior disciplines 2 points of inferior disciplines 2 points' worth of votes (.5 each) 2 points' worth of bleed (+1 bleed is 1, so +2 bleed is 2) and about 2 points' worth of special. That's SIXTEEN! That's WAY out of hand for an 11-point vampire, you think? Leandro is a little more in-line, with: 6 points of superior disciplines 2 points of inferior disciplines 4 points of votes and bleed and about 2 points of special. That's only 14. That's a lot better for an 11-point vamp. Be honest; without Leandro's special, how much would he see play? And currently, how much DOES he see play? Compare, however, to poor old Harrod, with: 8 points of superior 2 points of inferior 4 points of votes/bleed (same for all IC members) and a special that I'd give him as free, since it's just horrible. That's 14, but since you can get his disciplines much cheaper, he gets ignored. Compare to Sutekh: NEC OBF PRE SER cel pot, 2 votes, +1 bleed, two specials 8 points superior, 2 inferior 1 point of votes, 1 point of bleed 1 point each for specials ...And Sutekh comes out at 14 as well. But he's easily better than Harrod, because both his specials are worthwhile. He actually comes out EVEN in points to Leandro, and I'll bet we see Sutekh just about as often as we see Leandro. In fact, I'm sitting here thinking about an OBF/PRE "ridiculous vote machine" deck right now, and I'd put Sutekh AND Leandro AND Arika in. And I'd recruit Bane Mummies on the side to handle some offensive combat, something neither Leandro nor Arika can do (Muddles is nice, but does rather get his ass kicked when he faces a combat deck). >cost. by the way i think it is a stupid idea to make vamps rares i nice >aspect of jyhad VTES was that all vamps where quite easy to get and a lot of >new players like the idea of playing with big powerfull vamps more than >playing with small weenie vamps so please WW never make Vamps rare again I'll admit to not totally understanding why the vamps were rare, myself. I'm sure it has to do with the idea of "how many of this card will you actually -need-", but the FN rares are sort of a pain to locate multiples of at all - and you DO need multiple vamps. -- Derek

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > What bleed-ability to you see that the Ventrue have beyond their inherent > disciplines? Well... I don't exactly. I'm saying that Dominate is not what makes the Ventrue or the Giovanni masters of financial empires. That comes more as a result of those particular clans' general inclinations. Dominate helps, yes, but it isn't to my way of thinking *why* they would be good at... well, at what bleeding is supposed to represent. Chock it up to DP:tES talk. > While a vast financial empire /may/ help you bleed better, being masters > at bleeding doesn't necessarily imply a vast financial empire. Yes. That was sort of the point I was trying to make... Cheers, WES

In article <a2c1jt0gtjtstgd5e...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: >I'll admit to not totally understanding why the vamps were rare, >myself. I'm sure it has to do with the idea of "how many of this card >will you actually -need-", but the FN rares are sort of a pain to >locate multiples of at all - and you DO need multiple vamps. Well, in the particular case of Sutekh, you can always just magic him out with Summon the Serpent, which alleviates the 'need multiples' thing somewhat. Summon is also key in any Aabbt-kindred deck, since it lets you fish for Nefertiti. But the real xq00l thing about new Serpentis: Camarilla Snake Prince decks. Oh yeah. Suhailah and Murat, chillin' together with the ser and the obf. Throw in Mirembe Kabbada (ser for to go with Suhailah's ser for) and you've got an all-girl snake party, ready to go. 2nd Tradition for blockies, some tricky combat or combat avoidance (skin of the adder, fortitude, potence on murat, obf maneuvers), and a big pile of Extortions. Gotta love it. gomi -- Yes, I believe but I'd rather not pray What I believe in I'd rather not say, baby

> In message <B7554290.4A90%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, Pat Ricochet > <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> writes >> Well, of course, but that's what makes it a "deck idea" instead of just >> a "module." Isn't it worth getting a free 11-cap, though? > > If you go the IC route for MotC, why not just spend the 11 in the first > place? Because I'd like to have 2 11-caps, but only "pay" for one of them? That leaves a Big Old Fart to call the Banishments on the (almost certainly) younger vampires and then still have an IC member to call the MotC, putting the newly flipped over guy into his ash heap for my Daemonic Possession. > Getting a Justicar is either a 9 cap (Sheldon), or many moving parts > (votes). Well of *course* it's lots of moving parts! That's the challenge. I can count on everyone else to come up with all the "obvious" effective new Giovanni tricks (Seduction/Call of the Grateful Dead; Baleful Doll/Jar the Soul/Society of Leopold), but I've got to come up with wackier decks for the newsletter. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:<B75651C5.4B02%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>... [ quoted text not captured ] Crap, wrote a long post, and then hit cancel, you all now get the condensed version: Arika, Augustus, Ezmerelda: PRE pre PRE DOM DOM dom --- NEC --- but there is a book and Vast wealth for that. Get Arika, Vast wealth for the book, call Might of the Camarilla, bring back Augustus. call banishment with him, voter cap. next turn have him go daemonic possess someone (a Justicar or IC preferabbly) they or Arika call Might, or Protect Thine Own, get a Ezmerelda. Burn Her for pool if you're low. deflect, obediance, BO, Awe, Voter Cap as needed. Keep burning your Ez's until you have plenty of pool. Bring someone to protect you if this all works. Cameron, who wouldn't do it himself, but only for lack of Cards (namely the fatties) PS. NAME: Augustus and the Queens of Sleaze?

"Ferenci Stefan" <a950...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote > I am talking about game balance and wes is absolutly right when saying that > 11 pool invested should bring you the same value no matter which clan the > vamp belongs too. > the 11 caps would be fine if they had 4 votes and +2 bleed Well... I don't want to seem like the leader of the growing 'New 11-Caps Suck' faction... For the record, I like all of them. I think they are harder to use than the IC guys but that does *not* make them useless. Also, the '11 pool value' is completely subjective as far as I'm concerned. Remember that I value vampires based on their utility in a particular deck, and *not* as the sum of their disciplines/specials. For example, Sela seems like a great vampire (and she is!) but her superior Presence doesn't help in a POT/CEL rush deck. Most of the largest cap vampires have secondary out-of-clan disciplines. Do you use them? Probably not. Therefore, they can't be considered part of that vampire's value.If you are playing a deck with only the three inherent clan disciplines, the most you'll ever have value-wise (under my system) is 6 points, plus any specials. Let me punctuate this by saying that as soon as I saw Sutekh I designed a deck with Free States Rant that takes advantage of his capacity, disciplines and special. In this deck, his 'value' is extremely high. Cheers, WES

See.. these are the kinds of discussions I love.. I would LOVE to lose to a deck like that at a tourney because its DAMN clever! Matt

"Matt Latham" <sv...@chartermi.net> escribió en el mensaje news:978c2422.01062...@posting.google.com... > See.. these are the kinds of discussions I love.. I would LOVE to lose > to a deck like that at a tourney because its DAMN clever! > > Matt In some other way, I met a deck like this in the last Iberian Open. It was a bloat deck with Leandro and Carlotta Giovanni, with Lucian and the rest of inner circles with obf. I managed to stop his bloating at first, bleeding with heavy presence but in the end i couldn't stop this deck from winning 8+ pool each round, and carlotta casting possessions on his dead inner circles. With the sargon and augustus, That deck should rock. Tom,Mad&Co

> Crap, wrote a long post, and then hit cancel, you all now get the condensed > version: Too bad. > Arika, Augustus, Ezmerelda: > PRE pre PRE > DOM DOM dom > --- NEC --- but there is a book and Vast wealth for that. Man, just when I'm all itching to trade away my one Ezmerelda for 2 Shroud Masteries, and you find a way to stick her in! Argh... =) > Get Arika, Vast wealth for the book, call Might of the Camarilla, bring back With all this THA/NEC leaking around Magic of the Smith for the ThaumaBook and the NecroBooks looks better and better...but not this deck. Biggest problem with this set is coming up with ONE deck, and not 12 at once! > Augustus. call banishment with him, voter cap. next turn have him go > daemonic possess someone (a Justicar or IC preferabbly) they or Arika call > Might, or Protect Thine Own, get a Ezmerelda. Burn Her for pool if you're Ooh! PTO! Good choice! > low. > deflect, obediance, BO, Awe, Voter Cap as needed. Keep burning your Ez's until > you have plenty of pool. Bring someone to protect you if this all works. I dunno, I'd bring a pen for autograph if this WORKS. =) > Cameron, who wouldn't do it himself, but only for lack of Cards (namely the > fatties) Yeah, I've only got the one Augustus, but Regina's got 2 votes and Forti-tood, so she can Freak Drive along with the Ventrue, like Arika and and Democritus. > PS. NAME: Augustus and the Queens of Sleaze? You'd almost *have* to add one Queen Anne for that title, but I like it. [ quoted text not captured ]

Pat Ricochet <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:<B757CAD8.4BDF%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>... > > Crap, wrote a long post, and then hit cancel, you all now get the condensed > > version: > > Too bad. > > > Arika, Augustus, Ezmerelda: > > PRE pre PRE > > DOM DOM dom > > --- NEC --- but there is a book and Vast wealth for that. FOR --- FOR I was thinking of Freak Drives in this, but didn't want it to seem to rare intensive... after all to get the crypt you'd probably need to trade away all of your rares to begin with. <grin> > > Man, just when I'm all itching to trade away my one Ezmerelda for 2 > Shroud Masteries, and you find a way to stick her in! Argh... =) > yeah, I'm not liking the 11-caps as R1's, they should be a bit more common than that. Mmmm Shroud Masteries [briefly imagines what he could get out of local Giovanni player for those...]. > > Get Arika, Vast wealth for the book, call Might of the Camarilla, bring back > With all this THA/NEC leaking around Magic of the Smith for the > ThaumaBook and the NecroBooks looks better and better...but not this deck. > Biggest problem with this set is coming up with ONE deck, and not 12 at > once! Yeah, I'm still trying to find a way to maximize the potential in my Zillah's Valley's. > > > Augustus. call banishment with him, voter cap. next turn have him go > > daemonic possess someone (a Justicar or IC preferabbly) they or Arika call > > Might, or Protect Thine Own, get a Ezmerelda. Burn Her for pool if you're > Ooh! PTO! Good choice! > > > low. > > deflect, obediance, BO, Awe, Voter Cap as needed. Keep burning your Ez's until > > you have plenty of pool. Bring someone to protect you if this all works. > > I dunno, I'd bring a pen for autograph if this WORKS. =) Yeah, I'm just thinking of all the bad blood I've been reading about concerning the Suc Club, etc. Autographs for some, miniture american flags for others!!! > > > Cameron, who wouldn't do it himself, but only for lack of Cards (namely the > > fatties) > > Yeah, I've only got the one Augustus, but Regina's got 2 votes and > Forti-tood, so she can Freak Drive along with the Ventrue, like Arika and > and Democritus. I like Regina in the deck, although Giovanni with pre/dom/NEC would be better than votes, IMHO... maybe smaller too. > > > PS. NAME: Augustus and the Queens of Sleaze? > You'd almost *have* to add one Queen Anne for that title, but I like it. yeah... Queen Anne. Crypt: Augustus Giovanni x2 pre/DOM/NEC, gets Ezmerelda's to burn Arika x2 PRE/DOM/FOR/OBF, nice special, Queen of Sleaze Queen Anne PRE/DOM/FOR/obf, Queen in Training Regina Giovanni DOM/for/NEC, Ezmerelda x4 (burn her, burn the witch) PRE/FOR/dom, 11 pool on the hoof (more Ez?) Sarrasine? nec/PRE/OBF Sutekh, the Dark God? NEC/PRE/OBF Stefano Giovanni? nec/pre/DOM this crypt, besides being way top heavy (the way I like them) has to many disciplines, which is a bit yucky. Of course you can drop obf, but why? Lots of votes, though so a deck of: Posession Daemonic Possession Protect Thine Own (cough, combo, cough) Might of the Cammies Banishment BO Voter Cap Freak Drive Minion Tap? Golconda Redeem the Lost Soul Cloak the Gathering Sargon's Book Vast Wealth Obediance Bleed? Deflection? Political Stranglehold? - ooohhh just thought about that after Daemonically getting every fatty in the game.... god i wish i could do this deck. other seasonings as required. Looking back, oh the moving parts, oh the rares, but oh the fun. Now to go and make another Toreador Deck that works. Cameron

> > Yeah, I'm still trying to find a way to maximize the potential in my > Zillah's Valley's. > More Queen Ann (or Justicar cards, or praxis seizures, if they are usable) and use Parity shift.