Kaymakli Nightmares vs merged (LSJ)

What happens to a merged vampire when Kaymakli Nightmares is played ? Do you consider that base+advancement card are both crypt cards and therefore return them both to the crypt, or do you consider that that the advancement card is a card placed "on" the base card (as per the merging rule, e.g. "place the advancement card on top of the base card"), therefore burning it (since KN states "any cards on them are burned") ? On second thought, I guess it's the latter. Correct ? thanks, Stone Kaymakli Nightmares [Gehenna:R] Cardtype: Master Master. All Methuselahs move any crypt cards in their uncontrolled regions to their crypts. Any blood counters on them are moved to the Methuselah's pool, and any cards on them are burned. Each Methuselah shuffles his or her crypt and then moves as many cards from his or her crypt to his or her uncontrolled region as he or she shuffled in. Only one Kaymakli Nightmares may be played per game.

Stone wrote: > What happens to a merged vampire when Kaymakli Nightmares is played ? > > Do you consider that base+advancement card are both crypt cards and > therefore return them both to the crypt, or do you consider that that the > advancement card is a card placed "on" the base card (as per the merging > rule, e.g. "place the advancement card on top of the base card"), therefore > burning it (since KN states "any cards on them are burned") ? > > On second thought, I guess it's the latter. Correct ? The latter, yes. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Jan 17, 5:31 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Stone wrote: > > What happens to a merged vampire when Kaymakli Nightmares is played ? > > > Do you consider that base+advancement card are both crypt cards and > > therefore return them both to the crypt, or do you consider that that the > > advancement card is a card placed "on" the base card (as per the merging > > rule, e.g. "place the advancement card on top of the base card"), therefore > > burning it (since KN states "any cards on them are burned") ? > > > On second thought, I guess it's the latter. Correct ? > > The latter, yes. Are we talking about a *banished* merged vampire, or something like that? 'Cause that's the only way I can think of one in the uncontrolled region... And Kaymalki Nightmares wouldn't affect one otherwise. Given that it wasn't stated, though, I felt for the record I ought to ask. - D.J.

[ quoted text not captured ] Thats seems odd that Kalmakli Nightmares would discriminate against the advanced version of the vampire and discard it rather than seeing both the advanced and the base copies as crypt cards to be returned to the crypt and replaced in the uncontrolled region. Kaymakli Nightmares is obviously looking to discriminate between library and crypt cards in the uncontrolled region. So strange to be penalized for merging a vampire. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

Meej a écrit : > On Jan 17, 5:31 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > >>Stone wrote: >> >>>What happens to a merged vampire when Kaymakli Nightmares is played ? >> >>>Do you consider that base+advancement card are both crypt cards and >>>therefore return them both to the crypt, or do you consider that that the >>>advancement card is a card placed "on" the base card (as per the merging >>>rule, e.g. "place the advancement card on top of the base card"), therefore >>>burning it (since KN states "any cards on them are burned") ? >> >>>On second thought, I guess it's the latter. Correct ? >> >>The latter, yes. > > > Are we talking about a *banished* merged vampire, or something like > that? good use of grey matter...

On 17 jan, 23:31, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Stone wrote: > > What happens to a merged vampire when Kaymakli Nightmares is played ? > > > Do you consider that base+advancement card are both crypt cards and > > therefore return them both to the crypt, or do you consider that that the > > advancement card is a card placed "on" the base card (as per the merging > > rule, e.g. "place the advancement card on top of the base card"), therefore > > burning it (since KN states "any cards on them are burned") ? > > > On second thought, I guess it's the latter. Correct ? > > The latter, yes. Thanks :) And sorry for the rather unlikely-to-happen-situation question.

On Jan 17, 5:31 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Stone wrote: > > What happens to a merged vampire when Kaymakli Nightmares is played ? > > > Do you consider that base+advancement card are both crypt cards and > > therefore return them both to the crypt, or do you consider that that the > > advancement card is a card placed "on" the base card (as per the merging > > rule, e.g. "place the advancement card on top of the base card"), therefore > > burning it (since KN states "any cards on them are burned") ? > > > On second thought, I guess it's the latter. Correct ? > > The latter, yes. I dispute this. From the rulebook: "6. Advancement: An advancement card is a type of vampire card for your crypt. An advancement card looks just like a regular crypt card except that it has an Advancement icon under the clan icon. The advancement card is a vampire card in all respects, so it can be influenced in the normal manner. In addition, if you already control the advancement or the associated regular "base" vampire and the other version of the vampire is in your uncontrolled region, then you can spend 4 transfers and 1 pool to move the vampire card from your uncontrolled region to the controlled vampire card (place the advancement card on top of the base card). The two cards effectively merge to form a single vampire. The particulars of this merge are as follows. The counters and cards on the vampire remain. *****The advancement and the base card are treated as a single vampire card, even if sent to the uncontrolled region somehow, until the vampire is burned. *****Any effects in play that targeted the vampire now target the merged version. When merged, the text on the base card still applies, but the rest of the card is ignored (capacity, Disciplines, etc.). The advancement card applies in full. If the advancement card conflicts with the base card (a different sect, for example), the advancement card has precedence. Some merged cards have an additional effect that only applies if the card is merged with its base card. Such an effect is identified in the card text by a "merged" icon. The advanced vampire (merged or not) will contest other copies of the same vampire (advanced or not) in play, as usual." According to this base rule, a merged vampire in the uncontrolled region is only one card. When KN moves the vampire to the crypt, both should be "halves" of the vampire should go into the crypt. Why am I wrong?

[ quoted text not captured ] Except for saying "any cards on them" rather than "any library cards on them", perhaps. > So strange to be penalized for merging a vampire. It isn't strange at all. Just as is isn't strange that a vampire with a Discipline card would lose that card when sent to the *crypt*. Or a mummy with an equipment card would lose that card on a trip through the library. It might appear strange if you think of the single merged vampire as two vampires (rather than one vampire with another, modifying, card on him), but that sort of mislaid foundation leads to a whole slew of oddities, not just w.r.t. KayNightmare.

Wookie813 wrote: > Why am I wrong? A vampire with a Discipline card is one vampire, not two halves. And yet, only the vampire goes to the crypt from KN.

[ quoted text not captured ] Right, that I get. That makes perfect sense. What doesn't make sense to me is that, per the rulebook, a merged vampire is to be considered one card, EXCEPT when it's targeted by Kaymakli Nightmares. Why doesn't KN see the merged vampire as one card and put it back into the crypt, whereupon it becomes two cards again?

[ quoted text not captured ] Ah, OK. Sure. REVERSAL: Kaymakli Nightmares send both cards to the crypt.

On 18 jan, 12:35, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Ah, OK. Sure. REVERSAL: Kaymakli Nightmares send both cards to the crypt. My following question is : if my merged vampire was the only minion of my uncontrolled region when KN was played, how many cards do I draw from my crypt as a result of KN's cardtext ? Is it 1 because I had 1 vampire in my uncontrolled region? Or is it 2 because I moved 2 crypt cards to my crypt ?

LSJ wrote: > andrea....@infinito.it wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] >> But then just 1 card back to uncontrolled right? >> Andrea > > Right, since it just counts as 1. BUUUT...Kaymakli doesn't target *vampires*. It targets *crypt cards*. A merged vampire has 2 crypt cards. Kaymakli doesn't move 'the vampire' to it's owner's crypt. It moves all crypt cards. Of which there are two... The merging rules don't say anything about them counting as one crypt card. Only that they count as one vampire. -- salem (replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)

In message <4791...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, Salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> writes: >BUUUT...Kaymakli doesn't target *vampires*. It targets *crypt cards*. A >merged vampire has 2 crypt cards. Kaymakli doesn't move 'the vampire' >to it's owner's crypt. It moves all crypt cards. Of which there are >two... > >The merging rules don't say anything about them counting as one crypt >card. Only that they count as one vampire. They say both. 1.5.6: The two cards effectively merge to form a single vampire. ... The advancement and the base card are treated as a single vampire card -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

Notice that Kaymakli doesn't count how many cards have been sent back to the crypt from the uncontrolled region, but how many were shuffled in. Are the cards composing a merged vampire still considered as "one" card when they aren't any more in the uncontrolled region, but on their way to be shuffled in the crypt ?