The Classic Camarilla 9-caps

I was recently in San Francisco for Ira's tournament weekend, and Ian Lee and I were talking about how the game has seemed skewed against 9-caps since it began, and we couldn't even think of half the names of these guys without looking! I thought it might provoke some discussion to give them a grade and then ask what everyone thought. BRUJAH ====== Crusher, 9, for CEL PRE POT Brujah Primogen: Once each combat, Crusher may burn 1 blood to get one dodge. +1 strength. Back in the day, Crusher was the only CEL/for/POT vampire in the game. He also has +1 strength to go with it, PRE for some bleed and/or voting power, and a usable special. Unfortunately, his little brother Pug Jackson and their cousin Jimmy Dunn are far more efficient. Even Richter, Don Cerro, Count Germaine, and now Themistocles are much better choices. GRADE: Classic VTES: B+ Today: D- GANGREL ======= Ingrid Rossler, 9, dom ANI FOR PRO Gangrel Prince of Geneva: If Ingrid is ready, you get two extra transfers during your influence phase. She's a Gangrel Prince, her title wasn't contested until recently and only then with two vampires that rarely see play, her special is simply amazing, and she has dominate. There still isn't a vampire that is comparable. Wow! GRADE: Classic VTES: A+ Today: A- Katarina, 9, pot pro ANI FOR Gangrel Prince of Glasgow: Katarina gets +1 bleed -when bleeding a Methuselah who controls a ready Ravnos-. She's one of only two Gangrel Princes (both in the same group) and no one contests her title. She also has the ability to put you into torpor via Agg damage and/or Disarm, if you like. GRADE: Classic VTES: B Today: C- MALKAVIAN ========= Roxanne, Rectrix of the 13th Floor, 9, pot AUS DOM FOR OBF Malkavian Primogen: Roxanne may enter combat with a vampire of capacity below 4 that your predator or prey controls as a +1 stealth (D) action. Pasting FOR/pot and (D)Rush onto a 9-cap Malkavian fattie made for an interesting vampire. Note that many of the (D)Rush vampires at the time had obf/pot (although it was pre-Disarm) and several of them had protean. Too bad they all blow nowadays. GRADE: Classic VTES: B- Today: D+ NOSFERATU ========= Marty Lechtansi, 9, ani for DOM OBF POT Nosferatu Primogen: Once each combat, Marty may burn 1 blood to get one press. The ousting power of DOM/OBF as well as adding fortitude made him pretty good (the other four DOM/OBF vamps were all Malks and only one of those had fortitude), and his special is totally solid. But he wasn't a Prince, and he really sucks now. GRADE: Classic VTES: B- Today: D- Sheldon, Lord of the Clog, 9, for ANI AUS OBF POT Nosferatu Justicar Sure, he is a 9-cap Justicar with fortitude, and the AUS gives him intercept and bounce, but even though both were needed in his clan, it made him the odd-man-out since there was no one for him to team-up with, and not running 4-5 copies of him in a 12-card crypt can cause problems with dead cardslots or lots of decrypting. Still used regularly. GRADE: Classic VTES: A- Today: B- TOREADOR ======== Andreas, The Bard of Crete, 9, dom pro AUS CEL PRE Toreador Primogen: Once each turn, Andreas may burn 1 blood to get +1 intercept. Truly awful design. Primogen, not Prince. dominate, not DOMINATE. Oh, and thanks for the protean, the 1 vote, and the average special. GRADE: Classic VTES: D Today: F Klaus van der Veken, 9, aus obf tha CEL PRE Toreador Prince of Amsterdam: Klaus may cancel the effects of one of your prey's hunting ground cards. He's a Prince with a title that is only contested with two vampires that rarely see play. He has a useful, FREE special. His obfuscate allowed a little stealth back then, which was sorely needed in voting. Even now, he is still used in some voting decks. GRADE: Classic VTES: A- Today: B- TREMERE ======= Cardano, 9, ani aus cel DOM FOR THA Tremere Prince of Boston He's a Prince with a title that is only contested with one vampire, albeit one that is seen often. His cel/FOR add-ons made him and Ulugh (and later Muaziz) a nice Tremere team, and they love Forced March. Has seen a resurgence recently, due to FM, Quicken Sight, and Resist Earth's Grasp. Still worshipped by some. GRADE: Classic VTES: Today: Lazarus, 9, cel pot AUS DOM THA Tremere Primogen: Lazarus may inflict 1R damage as a strike. His above-average advanced-version notwithstanding, Lazarus was only ever used in cel/THA decks, and his potence was for naught, and his special is total crap. GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: D- Javier Montoya, 9, ani cel pre AUS THA Tremere Prince of Barcelona: Javier burns 1 less blood when rescuing a vampire in torpor. +1 bleed. He's a Prince with a title that is only contested with one vampire, albeit one that is seen often. Another cel/THA guy, although his two specials are quite good, and his ani/pre give him options. GRADE: Classic VTES: C+ Today: D Spiridonas, 9, pot pre DOM THA Tremere Prince of Athens: Once each turn, Spiridonas can burn X+2 blood to get +X bleed for the current action. He's a Prince with a non-contested title and a RIDICULOUS special. Spiri was the lynchpin of one of the old Return To Innocence decks, and although he isn't used today, let us Never Forget(TM). GRADE: Classic VTES: A Today: C+ VENTRUE ======= Helena Casimir, 9, cel for DOM POT PRE Ventrue Primogen: +1 bleed. Adding cel/POT onto a Ventrue at the cost of their FORTITUDE is just plain unfair. You think I'm going to fight with that? Her special and her vote do absolutely nothing to inspire confidence. GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: F Natasha Volfchek, 9, cel dom pot FOR PRE Ventrue Primogen: Natasha gets +1 stealth on political actions. +1 bleed. Again, a Ventrue that gets bent-over on one of their in-clan disciplines (dominate!!) to acquire two other disciplines (at inferior!), although her +1 bleed and special are good. GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: F Bindusara, Historian of the Kindred, 9, tha AUS DOM FOR PRE Ventrue: Bindusara can take an action to allow you to search your library for an Elder Library, Arcane Library, or Fragment of the Book of Nod; put that card in play. (Pay cost as normal.) Shuffle your library afterwards. +1 bleed. The only guy on the list with no votes, but who cares, right? His AUS/tha is kinda weird and not very useful (see Sheldon). Even his unique special and +1 bleed don't make you want to ever use him. GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: F Suhailah, 9, pot ser FOR OBF Ventrue Prince of Cairo: Suhailah gets +1 stealth on each of her actions if your prey has a ready Prince or Justicar. +1 bleed. She's a Prince with a title that is only contested with one vampire, and one that isn't seen too often. Her TWO missing in-clan disciplines make her nearly impossible to use as a Ventrue, other than as a Prince, although her OBF/pot/ser make her a very interesting, weird vampire that has been used more often than you would think, mainly since she can stealth vote. GRADE: Classic VTES: C+ Today: C- Wilhelm Waldburg, 9, aus cel DOM FOR PRE Ventrue Prince of Berlin: If Wilhelm's title is contested, the contesting vampire burns 1 additional blood each untap phase he or she does not yield. He's a Prince with a title that is only contested with two vampires that rarely see play, but his aus/cel and marginal special are totally meaningless. GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: D- Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/

[ quoted text not captured ] I disagree with the low grades given to Natasha and Helena. I've been giving serious consideration to making a multi-act bleed/vote deck with them, since they can both play FM. If you could get them out quickly enough with Info Highways, they'd be devastating going forward. Agreed on everyone else, though.

[ quoted text not captured ] The biggest problem with many of them, is that they look like they belong to the wrong clan and if they were switched clans they'd drop by a 1 or 2 in cap. This is particularly true of the Venture "wierdos". Shuhailah = works just dandy with Sir Ralph Hamilton and a couple others in a "Tyhonic Snakes" deck. Also could be a "big cap" Aabbt Kindred... but seriously as a Venture... Shuhailah is tripe. Bindusara = the Tremere with FOR & PRE... oops the Ventrue with AUS & tha... toss him in the crypt with Ulugh, Cardano and Muaziz and you might have something... Helena & Natasha = Brujah with blurred up skills... both of them could round out a Eurotrash deck, but then... why not just stick with the Eurotrash?? (Except for maybe VHQ and EKN...) Spiridonas = Comedy central. Who wouldn't want to do some broken super-cheese bleed with Spiridonas??? Who cares WHAT your disciplines are... Spiridonas can be your super-bleeder... or your Block- attractor... or whatever you want... Hey he can even use Iron Glare if you want to go for the votes... (Giant's Bloods not included, rest of deck sold separately) Javier = the Rescue Man. Give him a Catacombs or a Humanitas and Javier is the vampiric equivalent of the Red Cross... If you have a "Burst of Sunlight Suicide Bomber" crypt, then Javier is your man... Toss a Rutor's Hand on him and watch him Rescue + Flick/Reduce... sure the Dominate would be nice, but that's what the other goons are for right? Lazarus = cel/Tha Sponge of Doom... what is the problem with Cel/Tha Sponger decks? Torporising your opponent so you can cash in on a Fame/ Tensions... Lazarus has that built in... Suck them dry then *ping* into torpor with the additional 1R damage... Minion Slap him until he's nearly bone dry and Nose of the Hound some other poor full sucker... Cardano + Javier = Tha/Ani?? Sure, Thaumaturgy Animalism Princes FTW!!! Cardano = could always chuck him in with Gangrel w/ Dominate... I suppose... Crusher = full of fail (tm)

DeathInABottle wrote: > "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: [snip non-related vampires] >> VENTRUE >> ======= >> Helena Casimir, 9, cel for DOM POT PRE >> Ventrue Primogen: +1 bleed. >> >> Adding cel/POT onto a Ventrue at the cost of their FORTITUDE is >> just plain unfair. You think I'm going to fight with that? Her >> special and her vote do absolutely nothing to inspire confidence. >> GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: F >> >> Natasha Volfchek, 9, cel dom pot FOR PRE >> Ventrue Primogen: >> Natasha gets +1 stealth on political actions. +1 bleed. >> >> Again, a Ventrue that gets bent-over on one of their in-clan >> disciplines (dominate!!) to acquire two other disciplines (at >> inferior!), although her +1 bleed and special are good. >> GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: F > > I disagree with the low grades given to Natasha and Helena. I've > been giving serious consideration to making a multi-act bleed/vote > deck with them, since they can both play FM. If you could get them > out quickly enough with Info Highways, they'd be devastating going > forward. Well, the fact that they cost NINE to get out, and you can't Govern-down (or whatever) from one to the other, you have 18 pool right there. Because of FM, I probably should have given them D- grades. Sorry. ;) > Agreed on everyone else, though. Nice! =) [ quoted text not captured ]

On 2 Apr, 04:30, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Sheldon, Lord of the Clog, 9, for ANI AUS OBF POT > Nosferatu Justicar > > Sure, he is a 9-cap Justicar with fortitude, and the AUS gives him > intercept and bounce, but even though both were needed in his clan, > it made him the odd-man-out since there was no one for him to team-up > with, and not running 4-5 copies of him in a 12-card crypt can cause > problems with dead cardslots or lots of decrypting. Still used regularly. > GRADE: Classic VTES: A- Today: B- > > Suhailah, 9, pot ser FOR OBF > Ventrue Prince of Cairo: Suhailah gets +1 stealth on each > of her actions if your prey has a ready Prince or Justicar. +1 bleed. > > She's a Prince with a title that is only contested with one vampire, and > one that isn't seen too often. Her TWO missing in-clan disciplines make > her nearly impossible to use as a Ventrue, other than as a Prince, although > her OBF/pot/ser make her a very interesting, weird vampire that has been > used more often than you would think, mainly since she can stealth vote. > GRADE: Classic VTES: C+ Today: C- > Some of your grades surprise me. Like giving Sheldon a B- which would make him less of a vampire than Ingrid Rossler (who is decent but pretty far from amazing). And I also find the grade on Suhailah surprisingly low. She's even part of a modern day tier 1 deck ( http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k6aleslcqf ). A deck which even features Sheldon from time to time too. Also, you forgot to give Cardano his grades ;) Regards Alex

On Apr 1, 7:30 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > I was recently in San Francisco for Ira's tournament weekend, and > Ian Lee and I were talking about how the game has seemed skewed > against 9-caps since it began, and we couldn't even think of half the > names of these guys without looking! I thought it might provoke some > discussion to give them a grade and then ask what everyone thought. We couldn't think of half of the Sabbat 9 caps, like Salinger and Donatien. Of course, that doesn't change that the game has had a huge bias against 9 caps in other sets. I don't know how much is gained by going back to Jyhad/DS/AH where we know there were severe problems with design, but since you nagged me ... > BRUJAH > ====== > Crusher, 9, for CEL PRE POT > Brujah Primogen: Once each combat, Crusher may burn 1 blood > to get one dodge. +1 strength. > > Back in the day, Crusher was the only CEL/for/POT vampire in > the game. He also has +1 strength to go with it, PRE for some > bleed and/or voting power, and a usable special. Unfortunately, > his little brother Pug Jackson and their cousin Jimmy Dunn are far > more efficient. Even Richter, Don Cerro, Count Germaine, and now > Themistocles are much better choices. > GRADE: Classic VTES: B+ Today: D- I thought Crusher was pretty horrible back in my Jyhad days. If anything, I think he's managed to gain new life as Cel and Pot have both gotten better while Cel+Pre and POT+PRE have uses now. Then, as group 1 was completely fading away, along came Anarch Convert to give it some stimulus package. > GANGREL > ======= > Ingrid Rossler, 9, dom ANI FOR PRO > Gangrel Prince of Geneva: If Ingrid is ready, > you get two extra transfers during your influence phase. > > She's a Gangrel Prince, her title wasn't contested until recently > and only then with two vampires that rarely see play, her special > is simply amazing, and she has dominate. There still isn't a vampire > that is comparable. Wow! > GRADE: Classic VTES: A+ Today: A- Still reasons to play her as there hasn't been an influx of PRO/Dom- ers, but there has been an influx of other stuff to take market share from PRO/Dom. Hasn't gained much from her clan or clan disciplines. Highly dependent upon how good big cap PRO/Dom is in one's meta. > Katarina, 9, pot pro ANI FOR > Gangrel Prince of Glasgow: Katarina gets +1 bleed > -when bleeding a Methuselah who controls a ready Ravnos-. > > She's one of only two Gangrel Princes (both in the same group) > and no one contests her title. She also has the ability to put you > into torpor via Agg damage and/or Disarm, if you like. > GRADE: Classic VTES: B Today: C- Always terrible. Inferior Pro is quite bad on a Gangrel. > MALKAVIAN > ========= > Roxanne, Rectrix of the 13th Floor, 9, pot AUS DOM FOR OBF > Malkavian Primogen: > Roxanne may enter combat with a vampire of capacity below 4 that > your predator or prey controls as a +1 stealth (D) action. > > Pasting FOR/pot and (D)Rush onto a 9-cap Malkavian fattie made > for an interesting vampire. Note that many of the (D)Rush vampires > at the time had obf/pot (although it was pre-Disarm) and several of > them had protean. Too bad they all blow nowadays. > GRADE: Classic VTES: B- Today: D+ Having superior CLAN meant something when there were hardly crypt options. FOR, eh, seem it used in not completely stupid decks. Change in group number might be interesting as she's a "!Ventrue" w/ OBF. Even with AC, group 1 has vast problems with coming up with crypts that compare to any combo after 1/2. > NOSFERATU > ========= > Marty Lechtansi, 9, ani for DOM OBF POT > Nosferatu Primogen: > Once each combat, Marty may burn 1 blood to get one press. > > The ousting power of DOM/OBF as well as adding fortitude made > him pretty good (the other four DOM/OBF vamps were all Malks > and only one of those had fortitude), and his special is totally solid. > But he wasn't a Prince, and he really sucks now. > GRADE: Classic VTES: B- Today: D- I never saw him see any serious play. I consider that evidence that even DOM can't fix a bad 9 cap when there's like no crypt to put the vamp in - compare with Julio Martinez, who surprised me with his solidness. Just too many substitutes for Dom/Obf in 1/2 to waste time with him. > Sheldon, Lord of the Clog, 9, for ANI AUS OBF POT > Nosferatu Justicar > > Sure, he is a 9-cap Justicar with fortitude, and the AUS gives him > intercept and bounce, but even though both were needed in his clan, > it made him the odd-man-out since there was no one for him to team-up > with, and not running 4-5 copies of him in a 12-card crypt can cause > problems with dead cardslots or lots of decrypting. Still used regularly. > GRADE: Classic VTES: A- Today: B- The anti-Marty in a way in that AUS isn't DOM, yet Justicar strong, Primogen useless makes Sheldon a worthy and Marty crap. Actually, Primogen is worse than useless on average as it means no anarching. > TOREADOR > ======== > Andreas, The Bard of Crete, 9, dom pro AUS CEL PRE > Toreador Primogen: > Once each turn, Andreas may burn 1 blood to get +1 intercept. > > Truly awful design. Primogen, not Prince. dominate, not DOMINATE. > Oh, and thanks for the protean, the 1 vote, and the average special. > GRADE: Classic VTES: D Today: F While hardly exciting these days, I find your grades ridiculous. I played this guy reasonably often as Toreador with CLAN kind of didn't suck. Special is average, as you say. PRE makes many a high cap playable. In general, I think Jyhad Toreador besides A&A get too much grief. Not everyone can be as broken as Anson and Anneke. I filled out crypts with Eliott Sinclair - as much as his ilk had god awful design, Toreador is one of the more favorable clans to be and PRE (or, in Tatiana's case, Princedom and bouncedom) is filler material. > Klaus van der Veken, 9, aus obf tha CEL PRE > Toreador Prince of Amsterdam: Klaus may cancel the effects > of one of your prey's hunting ground cards. > > He's a Prince with a title that is only contested with two vampires that > rarely see play. He has a useful, FREE special. His obfuscate allowed > a little stealth back then, which was sorely needed in voting. Even now, > he is still used in some voting decks. > GRADE: Classic VTES: A- Today: B- Useful special? For classic, okay. I don't recall a Poacher's HG ever giving blood. Tor w/ Obf is okay and 2/3 hasn't been obsoleted. My favorite use was before Weather Control got changed for my "if you block my votes, your minion dies" PRE/Tha deck. > TREMERE > ======= > Cardano, 9, ani aus cel DOM FOR THA > Tremere Prince of Boston > > He's a Prince with a title that is only contested with one vampire, albeit > one that is seen often. His cel/FOR add-ons made him and Ulugh > (and later Muaziz) a nice Tremere team, and they love Forced March. > Has seen a resurgence recently, due to FM, Quicken Sight, and Resist > Earth's Grasp. Still worshipped by some. > GRADE: Classic VTES: Today: Resurgence? I used to see him all of the time. Now, hardly do. > Lazarus, 9, cel pot AUS DOM THA > Tremere Primogen: Lazarus may inflict 1R damage as a strike. > > His above-average advanced-version notwithstanding, Lazarus was > only ever used in cel/THA decks, and his potence was for naught, and > his special is total crap. > GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: D- Always just so ... weak. > Javier Montoya, 9, ani cel pre AUS THA > Tremere Prince of Barcelona: Javier burns 1 less blood > when rescuing a vampire in torpor. +1 bleed. > > He's a Prince with a title that is only contested with one vampire, albeit > one that is seen often. Another cel/THA guy, although his two specials > are quite good, and his ani/pre give him options. > GRADE: Classic VTES: C+ Today: D Nothing really to add. > Spiridonas, 9, pot pre DOM THA > Tremere Prince of Athens: Once each turn, Spiridonas can > burn X+2 blood to get +X bleed for the current action. > > He's a Prince with a non-contested title and a RIDICULOUS special. > Spiri was the lynchpin of one of the old Return To Innocence decks, > and although he isn't used today, let us Never Forget(TM). > GRADE: Classic VTES: A Today: C+ Sometimes, I wonder why I don't see him more. I guess the Mata Hari's et al of the world have stolen the combo players away. > VENTRUE > ======= > Helena Casimir, 9, cel for DOM POT PRE > Ventrue Primogen: +1 bleed. > > Adding cel/POT onto a Ventrue at the cost of their FORTITUDE is > just plain unfair. You think I'm going to fight with that? Her special > and her vote do absolutely nothing to inspire confidence. > GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: F The discipline spread is way, way more interesting than it once was. I wouldn't quite switch the grades, but something like D/D would make more sense to me. > Natasha Volfchek, 9, cel dom pot FOR PRE > Ventrue Primogen: > Natasha gets +1 stealth on political actions. +1 bleed. > > Again, a Ventrue that gets bent-over on one of their in-clan > disciplines (dominate!!) to acquire two other disciplines (at inferior!), > although her +1 bleed and special are good. > GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: F Plus stealth on political is hot. What would be F material is if she had inferior Pre. Better than Helena in general even if I'm sure people are more intrigued by Helena's POT. > Bindusara, Historian of the Kindred, 9, tha AUS DOM FOR PRE > Ventrue: Bindusara can take an action to allow you to search your > library for an Elder Library, Arcane Library, or Fragment of the > Book of Nod; put that card in play. (Pay cost as normal.) > Shuffle your library afterwards. +1 bleed. > > The only guy on the list with no votes, but who cares, right? His > AUS/tha is kinda weird and not very useful (see Sheldon). Even his > unique special and +1 bleed don't make you want to ever use him. > GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: F Weather Control got changed, *sigh*. No title is way better than Primogen, well, "way" being relative as sometimes it really is way and sometimes it's not better at all. Still, this has always been a Dawn Op/WC dude, an archetype that people seem to like even if it was always overrated and was dead in the Imbued's salad days. > Suhailah, 9, pot ser FOR OBF > Ventrue Prince of Cairo: Suhailah gets +1 stealth on each > of her actions if your prey has a ready Prince or Justicar. +1 bleed. > > She's a Prince with a title that is only contested with one vampire, and > one that isn't seen too often. Her TWO missing in-clan disciplines make > her nearly impossible to use as a Ventrue, other than as a Prince, although > her OBF/pot/ser make her a very interesting, weird vampire that has been > used more often than you would think, mainly since she can stealth vote. > GRADE: Classic VTES: C+ Today: C- Nothing to add. > Wilhelm Waldburg, 9, aus cel DOM FOR PRE > Ventrue Prince of Berlin: If Wilhelm's title is contested, the contesting > vampire burns 1 additional blood each untap phase he or she does not yield. > > He's a Prince with a title that is only contested with two vampires that > rarely see play, but his aus/cel and marginal special are totally > meaningless. > GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: D- Kind of harsh on the grades considering that's he's reasonable filler for Ventrue Law Firm. [ quoted text not captured ]

> I thought Crusher was pretty horrible back in my Jyhad days. Are you kidding me??! Crusher was A GOD in the Jyhad days. His dodge wasn't worded to be a strike. Meaning he could grapple you, smash the bejesus out of you and dodge your hitback. I will hear no ill will against Jyhad days Crusher!! (Also a shout out to my man Lazarus, who's 1R damage was also not worded as a strike, so he could theft you at long AND kill your Raven Spy!) jase

Feeding the Troll... Kevin M. <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Crusher, 9, for CEL PRE POT > Brujah Primogen: Once each combat, Crusher may burn 1 blood > to get one dodge. +1 strength. > Back in the day, Crusher was the only CEL/for/POT vampire in > the game. He also has +1 strength to go with it, PRE for some > bleed and/or voting power, and a usable special. Unfortunately, > his little brother Pug Jackson and their cousin Jimmy Dunn are far > more efficient. Even Richter, Don Cerro, Count Germaine, and now > Themistocles are much better choices. > GRADE: Classic VTES: B+ Today: D- Crusher definitely deserves a higher grade than this. Especially with Forced March, he's a quite capable multirusher, even at his cost. He's not an amazing vampire, but I have a Crusher deck right now (4 Crusher, 4 Richter, etc... with Enchant and Street Cred you can easily get both out) and it's more than adequate. GRADE: A solid B-. > Helena Casimir, 9, cel for DOM POT PRE > Ventrue Primogen: +1 bleed. > Adding cel/POT onto a Ventrue at the cost of their FORTITUDE is > just plain unfair. You think I'm going to fight with that? Her special > and her vote do absolutely nothing to inspire confidence. > GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: F > Natasha Volfchek, 9, cel dom pot FOR PRE > Ventrue Primogen: > Natasha gets +1 stealth on political actions. +1 bleed. > Again, a Ventrue that gets bent-over on one of their in-clan > disciplines (dominate!!) to acquire two other disciplines (at inferior!), > although her +1 bleed and special are good. > GRADE: Classic VTES: C- Today: F Absolutely wrong wrong wrong on both of those. Natasha + Helena + Emerson, with Iron Glare, is a viable second-string- lawfirm deck. And especially with Grooming the Protege, they can each end up paying for themselves. Both of them have celerity as well, so they're Forced March Ready. At *least* C+ for both.

Kevin M. schrieb: > I was recently in San Francisco for Ira's tournament weekend, and > Ian Lee and I were talking about how the game has seemed skewed > against 9-caps since it began, and we couldn't even think of half the > names of these guys without looking! I thought it might provoke some > discussion to give them a grade and then ask what everyone thought. Nicely done! Most of the grades seem about right. 9-caps have always been odd. -- If playing against Cock all you need to remember is: Don´t get caught by Cock.

jason...@iinet.net.au wrote: >> I thought Crusher was pretty horrible back in my Jyhad days. > > Are you kidding me??! Crusher was A GOD in the Jyhad days. His dodge > wasn't worded to be a strike. Meaning he could grapple you, smash the > bejesus out of you and dodge your hitback. His dodge has always officially been a strike. [RTR 01-NOV-1994] A "strike" that is not a dodge would have no effect.

[ quoted text not captured ] do you mean "a 'dodge' that is not a strike"? -- salem (replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)

On Apr 1, 10:30 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > NOSFERATU > ========= > Marty Lechtansi, 9, ani for DOM OBF POT > Nosferatu Primogen: > Once each combat, Marty may burn 1 blood to get one press. > > The ousting power of DOM/OBF as well as adding fortitude made > him pretty good (the other four DOM/OBF vamps were all Malks > and only one of those had fortitude), and his special is totally solid. > But he wasn't a Prince, and he really sucks now. > GRADE: Classic VTES: B- Today: D- I dunno if D- is a fair grade; he is still totally useable and viable, primarily 'cause of the DOM; you can build a whole crypt around, like, Pot/Ani/Dom that works reasonably well. Yeah, only a Primogen (if he were a Prince, he'd *still* be totally gold), but his general bad- assitude and Mickey Mouse watch *totally* make up for the deficit. -Peter

Thanks Kevin... this was utterly essential school for me. I wonder, could you give some examples of which vampires have made these irrelevant?

[ quoted text not captured ] Also, I could really use some advice on other levels... what 10s are good or bad from the modern players perspective? That would really help me a lot. A list for grading; BRUJAH ====== Card Title: Don Cruez, The Idealist Capacity: 10 Disciplines: ani dom pro CEL POT PRE Clan: Brujah Card Text: Brujah Justicar: Once each combat, Don Cruez may burn 1 blood to get one maneuver. Card Title: Appolonius Capacity: 10 Disciplines: for pot CEL PRE Clan: Brujah Card Text: Primogen: Appolonius gets one optional press each combat. +1 bleed GANGREL ======= Card Title: Angus the Unruled Capacity: 10 Disciplines: cel for pot ANI PRO Clan: Gangrel Card Text: Gangrel Justicar: +1 hand damage Card Title: Basilia Capacity: 10 Disciplines: obf pot ANI FOR PRO Clan: Gangrel Card Text: Primogen: Basilia inflicts aggravated hand damage. Card Title: Wynn Capacity: 10 Disciplines: obf pot ANI FOR PRO Clan: Gangrel Card Text: Primogen: Wynn may enter combat with a vampire controlled by your predator or prey. This is a +1 stealth (D) action. MALKAVIAN ========= Card Title: Lucian Capacity: 10 Disciplines: cel tha AUS DOM OBF Clan: Malkavian Card Text: Malkavian Justicar: Lucian may steal equipment as a strike. NOSFERATU ========= Card Title: Lucretia, Cess Queen Capacity: 10 Disciplines: aus cel for pot ANI OBF Clan: Nosferatu Card Text: Primogen: Lucretia gets +1 stealth on each of her actions. TOREADOR ======== Card Title: Anneke Capacity: 10 Disciplines: dom AUS CEL PRE Clan: Toreador Card Text: Toreador Justicar: Anneke may attempt to block a vampire after others have declined or failed to do so. +1 bleed Card Title: Masika Capacity: 10 Disciplines: AUS CEL PRE Clan: Toreador Card Text: Primogen: Masika may untap between Methuselahs' turns. +1 bleed TREMERE ======= Card Title: Cassandra, Magus Prime Capacity: 10 Disciplines: cel pre AUS DOM THA Clan: Tremere Card Text: Primogen: If Cassandra is ready, your hand size is one card larger. +1 hand damage Card Title: Ulugh Beg, The Watcher Capacity: 10 Disciplines: cel for pot AUS DOM THA Clan: Tremere Card Text: Tremere Justicar: If Ulugh is ready at the end of your turn, you may discard one additional card. VENTRUE ======= Card Title: Democritus Capacity: 10 Disciplines: aus cel for DOM PRE Clan: Ventrue Card Text: Ventrue Justicar: If Democritus is ready, any Methuselah contesting a card with you burns 1 extra pool to avoid yielding that card. +1 bleed

LSJ wrote: > jason...@iinet.net.au wrote: >>> I thought Crusher was pretty horrible back in my Jyhad days. >> >> Are you kidding me??! Crusher was A GOD in the Jyhad days. His dodge >> wasn't worded to be a strike. Meaning he could grapple you, smash the >> bejesus out of you and dodge your hitback. > > His dodge has always officially been a strike. [RTR 01-NOV-1994] > Yeah but in Aug, Sept and Oct 94, he was *GOD*. best - chris

[ quoted text not captured ] Assuming that a non-strike dodge would do anything, perhaps. But there are many untrue assumptions you could make that, when made, would turn this-or-that vampire into a *GOD*.

Eric Jome wrote: > On Apr 2, 9:53 am, Eric Jome <eric.j...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Thanks Kevin... this was utterly essential school for me. I wonder, >> could you give some examples of which vampires have made these >> irrelevant? > > Also, I could really use some advice on other levels... what 10s are > good or bad from the modern players perspective? That would really > help me a lot. A list for grading; > > BRUJAH > ====== > > Card Title: Don Cruez, The Idealist > Capacity: 10 > Disciplines: ani dom pro CEL POT PRE > Clan: Brujah > Card Text: Brujah Justicar: Once each combat, Don Cruez > may burn 1 blood to get one maneuver. > Justicar. CLAN. Decent special. dom. Still ok, could see 1 copy perhaps in a EuroBrujah deck (but sort of too big) > Card Title: Appolonius > Capacity: 10 > Disciplines: for pot CEL PRE > Clan: Brujah > Card Text: Primogen: Appolonius gets one optional press each > combat. +1 bleed > 2 schools of thought - either he is terrible; or if you get him in play, you automatically win. Most go to the first school, the rest are on bank holiday all the time. > GANGREL > ======= > > Card Title: Angus the Unruled > Capacity: 10 > Disciplines: cel for pot ANI PRO > Clan: Gangrel > Card Text: Gangrel Justicar: +1 hand damage Inf for makes him sucktastic. He wasn't even good back in the olden days. > > Card Title: Basilia > Capacity: 10 > Disciplines: obf pot ANI FOR PRO > Clan: Gangrel > Card Text: Primogen: Basilia inflicts aggravated hand damage. CLAN. Great special. Same disciplines as Wynn. Good synergy with Wynn. Newer decks are more often seen (oooh, shiny and new!). However, size is tough, and no real way to recoup their cost quickly (Pre, Dom, etc). > > Card Title: Wynn > Capacity: 10 > Disciplines: obf pot ANI FOR PRO > Clan: Gangrel > Card Text: Primogen: Wynn may enter combat with a vampire > controlled by your predator or prey. This is a +1 > stealth (D) action. See with Basilia above. CLAN. Good special. > > MALKAVIAN > ========= > > Card Title: Lucian > Capacity: 10 > Disciplines: cel tha AUS DOM OBF > Clan: Malkavian > Card Text: Malkavian Justicar: Lucian may steal equipment as > a strike. CLAN. Justicar. Cornercase special (would have been better as First STrike). Still sees use. > > NOSFERATU > ========= > > Card Title: Lucretia, Cess Queen > Capacity: 10 > Disciplines: aus cel for pot ANI OBF > Clan: Nosferatu > Card Text: Primogen: Lucretia gets +1 stealth on each of her > actions. Inf pot is teh suck. Primogens as noted up thread suck. +1s on her actions is nice, but doesnt' make up for her being 10cap. > > TOREADOR > ======== > > Card Title: Anneke > Capacity: 10 > Disciplines: dom AUS CEL PRE > Clan: Toreador > Card Text: Toreador Justicar: Anneke may attempt to block a > vampire after others have declined or failed to do so. > +1 bleed Broken, amazing, she's the hotness, even today. And cool art. > > Card Title: Masika > Capacity: 10 > Disciplines: AUS CEL PRE > Clan: Toreador > Card Text: Primogen: Masika may untap between Methuselahs' > turns. +1 bleed Not seen so much today, but very nice specials, CLAN. Ok that he's a primogen, since making him anarch would be a waste, since he has no inf disciplines. > > TREMERE > ======= > > Card Title: Cassandra, Magus Prime > Capacity: 10 > Disciplines: cel pre AUS DOM THA > Clan: Tremere > Card Text: Primogen: If Cassandra is ready, your hand size > is one card larger. +1 hand damage Not too hot. Again, Primogen. CLAN. Ok special (read +1 strength), could be in a Blood Fury/Blood Rage deck - but those have never proven to be all that good unless you are in a high fortitude metagame. > > Card Title: Ulugh Beg, The Watcher > Capacity: 10 > Disciplines: cel for pot AUS DOM THA > Clan: Tremere > Card Text: Tremere Justicar: If Ulugh is ready at the end of your > turn, you may discard one additional card. Pretty decent, CLAN. Has for, can combo with Muaziz and Cardano. Justicar. Ok special, good for cycling cards. > > > VENTRUE > ======= > > Card Title: Democritus > Capacity: 10 > Disciplines: aus cel for DOM PRE > Clan: Ventrue > Card Text: Ventrue Justicar: If Democritus is ready, any > Methuselah contesting a card with you burns 1 extra > pool to avoid yielding that card. +1 bleed Inf for is lame. But Justicar with PRE is good. However, if you are paying the 10 pool for Demo, might as well pay another pool for Arika, who truly is the benchmark against whom all vamps are measured. best - chris

On 2 Apr, 18:17, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > > Card Title: Angus the Unruled > > Capacity: 10 > > Disciplines: cel for pot ANI PRO > > Clan: Gangrel > > Card Text: Gangrel Justicar: +1 hand damage > > Inf for makes him sucktastic. He wasn't even good back in the olden days. > No, nonono. no. He was just waiting for the Seal of Verdartha. As soon as Gehenna came out he became playable in the Gangrel Royalty deck. A justicar who can play Beast Meld at superior and can get +1 bleed, DOM and FOR with an equip action. Depends if you like Parity Shift and ToGP in your fat Gangrel decks: I do, he's better than Genevieve IMO. He could play PTO too, when that was legal. GreenO

On Apr 2, 1:17 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > > Card Title: Angus the Unruled > > Capacity: 10 > > Disciplines: cel for pot ANI PRO > > Clan: Gangrel > > Card Text: Gangrel Justicar: +1 hand damage > > Inf for makes him sucktastic. He wasn't even good back in the olden days. If you care about his Fortitude that much, I assume you must have seen him being used in Gangrel combat decks, which are their own special problem regardless of whether or not Angus is crappy. I've don't think I've ever seen Gangrel Royalty decks that really care much about what level of Fortitude its guys have, because Freak Drive is about the only Fortitude card these decks care about. If your actions are succeeding, it doesn't matter if you've got it at basic or superior; if your actions are being blocked even after the Form of Mist, you're untapping with Earth Meld in the second combat anyway. There are times when his basic Fortitude might be an issue, but he's certainly a better choice than Katarina, and he's totally fine in Gangrel Royalty decks. John Eno

[ quoted text not captured ] Peter, I knew you would come out to defend ol' Marty. ;) But he is still awful, and no one plays him except you. [ quoted text not captured ]

Jozxyqk wrote: > Kevin M. <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote: >> Crusher, 9, for CEL PRE POT >> Brujah Primogen: Once each combat, Crusher may burn 1 blood >> to get one dodge. +1 strength. > >> Back in the day, Crusher was the only CEL/for/POT vampire in >> the game. He also has +1 strength to go with it, PRE for some >> bleed and/or voting power, and a usable special. Unfortunately, >> his little brother Pug Jackson and their cousin Jimmy Dunn are far >> more efficient. Even Richter, Don Cerro, Count Germaine, and now >> Themistocles are much better choices. >> GRADE: Classic VTES: B+ Today: D- > > Crusher definitely deserves a higher grade than this. > Especially with Forced March, he's a quite capable multirusher, even > at his cost. > He's not an amazing vampire, but I have a Crusher deck right now > (4 Crusher, 4 Richter, etc... with Enchant and Street Cred you can > easily get both out) and it's more than adequate. > GRADE: A solid B-. Somehow, I knew this would happen. Solid B-? You ARE joking, of course? Are you playing this deck in tournaments? I'd like to see how solid he is there. ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

While Anarch Convert is a great card, primogen and other one-vote vampires are still pretty hosed when it comes to going anarch. Imagine if the text for Anarch Convert read like this: Independent. Anarch: When the convert enters play, you may remove him from the game to make a non-titled vampire you control anarch or choose a titled vampire and gain 1 pool, then either gain 1 pool or draw a card from your crypt. This sort of change would help breathe new life into crypt cards that have been written off as lame camarilla/sabbat and even worse anarchs. Alternately, some card that would allow a titled vampire to upgrade their title would be nice. For example: Popular Master Unique. Place this card on a vampire with the title of Primogen to give them the privileges of a Prince or place this card on a Bishop to give them the privileges of an Archbishop. If the vampire with this card is burned or sent to torpor, burn one pool. Winning over some titled vampire to the dark side should be a gain, right? Brandon

brandons...@yahoo.com wrote: > Popular > Master > Unique. Place this card on a vampire with the title of Primogen to > give them the privileges of a Prince or place this card on a Bishop to > give them the privileges of an Archbishop. If the vampire with this > card is burned or sent to torpor, burn one pool. They tried this, it was called Will of the Council. How often does it see play?

[ quoted text not captured ] This is the only place to get the watch you like, but if you want a Nosferatu with DOM for, you might pay an extra pool for Petrodon. Matt Morgan

On 2 huhti, 21:56, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Will of the Council doesn't see play because it's a bad card, not because turning a Primogen into a Prince is bad. I bet Jaroslav Pascek etc. would love to have Popular friends.

On Apr 2, 11:56 am, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Will of the Counsel: Action +1 stealth action. Requires a ready primogen. Put this card on the acting primogen. During the referendum of a political action, this primogen can burn 1 blood to gain 1 vote. This primogen can burn this card to play a card that requires a prince as if he or she were a prince. This primogen can burn this card when a prince enters torpor to receive (and contest) the same title as that prince. A vampire can have only 1 Will of the Council. So the difference between the card here and the idea I wrote down is that WotC is Camarilla only, an action, and has limited ability to vote and act like a prince, where the fictional card requires no action, is not Camarilla specific, has two votes that are contestable, and can play any card that requires a prince/archbishop (as appropriate). It's no wonder that WotC is wallpaper, but I think that "Popular" should see some play. Combine this with a couple Justicar cards and Praxis Siezures, you get some old crypt cards that might be worth playing. Brandon

On Apr 2, 2:23 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Peter, I knew you would come out to defend ol' Marty. ;) > > But he is still awful, and no one plays him except you. Heh. I don't even play him anymore, really. But still. D-? I'd give him a solid C+. I mean, really. DOM. If he had no other disciplines at all, DOM would give him at least a C. -Peter

Peter D Bakija wrote: > Kevin M. wrote: >> Peter D Bakija wrote: >>> "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: >>>> NOSFERATU >>>> ========= >>>> Marty Lechtansi, 9, ani for DOM OBF POT >>>> Nosferatu Primogen: >>>> Once each combat, Marty may burn 1 blood to get one press. >>>> >>>> The ousting power of DOM/OBF as well as adding fortitude made >>>> him pretty good (the other four DOM/OBF vamps were all Malks >>>> and only one of those had fortitude), and his special is totally >>>> solid. But he wasn't a Prince, and he really sucks now. >>>> GRADE: Classic VTES: B- Today: D- >>> >>> I dunno if D- is a fair grade; he is still totally useable and >>> viable, primarily 'cause of the DOM; you can build a whole crypt >>> around, like, Pot/Ani/Dom that works reasonably well. Yeah, only >>> a Primogen (if he were a Prince, he'd *still* be totally gold), but >>> his general bad- assitude and Mickey Mouse watch *totally* make >>> up for the deficit. >> >> Peter, I knew you would come out to defend ol' Marty. ;) >> >> But he is still awful, and no one plays him except you. > > Heh. I don't even play him anymore, really. But still. D-? I'd give > him a solid C+. I mean, really. DOM. If he had no other disciplines > at all, DOM would give him at least a C. You aren't really defending this loser because he has DOM, are you? Or was it DOM/OBF that you were defending? As I said, the other four DOM/OBF vampires in group1 are all Malkavians, three of them at or below Marty's capacity. And in the other groups? Lots of better choices, choices that make you not choose Marty. Ever. And I won't even mention the 15 other DOM vampires in group1 that are at or below Marty's capacity that are, at least 13 of them, better than poor ol' Marty. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Apr 2, 8:21 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > You aren't really defending this loser because he has DOM, are you? I'm not really actually defending anything. This is just comedy. But if I were defending him, a 9 cap with OBF/DOM/POT/for/ani isn't that horrible, even with the current vampire build parameters. He is a couple points low (8 in disciplines, .5 in title, .5 in special?), but there are certainly vampires that are worse. Even currently built ones. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] If you were defending him, which you aren't, you would be ignoring the fact that cards don't exist in a vacuum. Cards exist within a context of other cards and of decks. Every crypt choice competes with every other crypt choice in its group and competes with other group combinations. What deck would you put him in? Of course, change his group # to 4 and ... On a side note, arguing for goodness off of point values is spurious analysis for a variety of reasons, including this one.

On Apr 2, 9:38 pm, Curevei <Cure...@aol.com> wrote: > What deck would you put him in? Really? There are a huge number of Decks that Only Work When You Get Marty Lechtansi out (well, at least MkI-Mk19 or so). Pot/Dom/Ani has a reasonable crypt in 1/2. Pot/Dom/whatever had plenty of action that Marty lived with in the pre Camarilla days. Again, is he behind a few points? Sure. But as someone who made a million decks that specifically used Marty Lechtansi? There are worse vampires. -Peter

> > Yeah but in Aug, Sept and Oct 94, he was *GOD*. > > Assuming that a non-strike dodge would do anything, perhaps. It did. Believe me. It knocked several hundred vampires into torpor :)

[ quoted text not captured ] Which Group1/2 9-caps would that be? [ quoted text not captured ]

On Apr 1, 7:30 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > I was recently in San Francisco for Ira's tournament weekend, and > Ian Lee and I were talking about how the game has seemed skewed > against 9-caps since it began, and we couldn't even think of half the > names of these guys without looking! I thought it might provoke some > discussion to give them a grade and then ask what everyone thought. > TOREADOR > ======== > Andreas, The Bard of Crete, 9, dom pro AUS CEL PRE > Toreador Primogen: > Once each turn, Andreas may burn 1 blood to get +1 intercept. > > Truly awful design. Primogen, not Prince. dominate, not DOMINATE. > Oh, and thanks for the protean, the 1 vote, and the average special. > GRADE: Classic VTES: D Today: F Is it too late to switch his title with Anson's?

On Apr 3, 1:47 am, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Which Group1/2 9-caps would that be? Off the top of the head, Id say that certainly Crusher (not enough stuff, noting real good to reccomend him otherwise, like a bounce discipline), Katarina (same as Crusher), Andreas (who is better than the previous two, but not by much), Lazarus (total suckfest), Natasha Volfcheck (way not useful enough to be worth the effort) are all totally worse. If for no other reason that OBF/DOM is strong. Yes, there are plenty of other OBF/DOM vampires in G1/2, but not that also come with POT and/or for. Again, I'm not claiming he is the best vampire in the world or anything (as noted, using the scale you were using, I'd give him a C+), and Alonzo now does everything Marty does, but just better. But as vampires go, still, you can do worse. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] There's also the possibility of rehabilitating Will of the Council, like maybe Chagal, the Messenger Nosferatu, capacity 5 obf pot qui ANI Camarilla Primogen. During your untap phase, if Chagall is ready you may take a Will of the Council from your hand or ash heap and place it on a ready Primogen. or Resurgence of the Council Unique Master 1 pool, requires a Primogen. Put this card in play. Actions requiring a Primogen get +2 stealth. During a political action any Primogen may burn a blood to gain two additional votes. Any methuselah may play Will of the Council from their hand or ash heap on a ready Primogen they controls as a Master: Trifle. Any titled vampire may put an objection counter on this card as an action that any Primogen may attempt to block (in addition to normally eligible blockers); Inner Circle members, Imperators and Regents do not tap for that action. Burn this card when it has four objection counters.

On Apr 3, 12:26 pm, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > There's also the possibility of rehabilitating Will of the Council, > like maybe I dunno--I think the apparent new plan (i.e. making 4-5 cap Primogen) is a totally reasonable way to make Primogen not seem like they suck so much. The original plan of making 9-10 cap Primogen was clearly a horrible one. But 4 cap Primogen? Sign me up! -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] AFAICT, you ignored everything I said. Pretty much why I hardly care about these nonarguments anymore. Okay, you made a million decks with Marty. That doesn't mean any of them were any good. Nor did anyone argue that Marty was the worst vampire in the game; in fact, it seemed fairly clear that it was suggested that if you changed his group number, he'd have a reasonable place in the game. And, continuing to bring up point values serves no analytical purpose. BTW, as bad as the TWDA might be for the olden days, Crusher beats Marty and Volfchek humiliates the competition with wins in 2009, 2008, 2007, and years prior.

On Apr 3, 12:43 pm, Curevei <Cure...@aol.com> wrote: > AFAICT, you ignored everything I said. Pretty much why I hardly care > about these nonarguments anymore. Dude. Take a deep breath and settle down here. Again. Silly argument. About silly subject. Why are you caring? > Okay, you made a million decks with Marty. That doesn't mean any of > them were any good. Many of them were actually not bad. But neither here nor there. > Nor did anyone argue that Marty was the worst vampire in the game; All I'm doing is splitting hairs with Kevin over the rating of D- (which, while not the worst rating Kevin gave out, not much better than "the worst vampire in the game"). I don't know what you are doing. > And, continuing to bring up point values serves no analytical purpose. I disagree. Completely. Vampires are built with a point structure. It is not the be all and end all of anything, no. But certainly a worthwhile point of comparison. And one of the main reasons that the old school 9-10 caps are as bad as they are when compared to new technology vampires is specifically because new technology 9-10 cap vampires get about 2(?) more points of stuff, generally speaking, than Jyhad era vampires of the same size (i.e. if Marty Lechtansi, or whoever, was made today, he'd probably have an extra superior discipline and either a better special or a better title. Which would make him more attractive to use across the board. Which is why pointing out that he is down a couple points serves a completely cromulent analytical purpose.) -Peter

On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, Peter D Bakija wrote: > I dunno--I think the apparent new plan (i.e. making 4-5 cap Primogen) > is a totally reasonable way to make Primogen not seem like they suck > so much. The original plan of making 9-10 cap Primogen was clearly a > horrible one. But 4 cap Primogen? Sign me up! Yes, that does seem to be an improvement, especially with cards like New Carthage that make a Primogen title considerably better. I think the old fatty Primogen were done that way because in the RPG the Primogen were often the city elders, older than the prince. Unfortunately, the way the game was designed, Prince is a super awesome title and Primogen is hardly worth the ink it takes to print the word. The Primogen vampires might've gotten enough other perks to still make them worthwhile, but they didn't. Matt Morgan

[ quoted text not captured ] Council Law Political Action. Requires a Primogen. Nominate a Prince and a Primogen. The Prince loses their title, it is given to the nominated Primogen and this card is put on the vampire to represent that title. If this title could be contested the vampire with this card is given the title of Primogen and this card is burned. Primogen and vampires of the same clan as the acting vampire gain an additonal Vote. The nominated Prince may not cast votes in this referendum.

On Apr 3, 12:51 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > On Fri, 3 Apr 2009, Peter D Bakija wrote: > > I dunno--I think the apparent new plan (i.e. making 4-5 cap Primogen) > > is a totally reasonable way to make Primogen not seem like they suck > > so much. The original plan of making 9-10 cap Primogen was clearly a > > horrible one. But 4 cap Primogen? Sign me up! The capacities of the Primogen in KoT are: 2x 4-cap (both with compensating weaknesses) 2x 5-cap 2x 6-cap 1x 7-cap 3x 8-cap 1x 9-cap 2x 10-cap So the current plan is still to make 9-10 cap Primogen. In Jyhad days, the minimum capacity for Primogen was 6 and the title was unusual below 8. Also, *every* 9 or 10 cap was titled. Being sparing with Prince and Justicar titles meant there were a lot of Primogens at 9 or 10. I don't think there was anything wrong with that per se. It's just that the Primogen title had, even at the time, little value, so the general underpowering of high-cap vampires looks even worse on the Primogen. If Wynn and Basilia had been Princes I bet there'd be a tier-one Wynsilia archtype despite their high cost and inability to bleed. Unfortunately, the designers of the later Wizards expansions were clueless about the value of abilities and traits and such. In particular, their Primogens are notoriously craptastic. But keep in mind that they even managed to make Princes that suck; it's juat that no matter how much a Prince sucks they can still play 2nd Tradition and Parity Shift. In Final Nights and Camarilla Edition, 'costing' of disciplines and titles and traits got more reasonable. The Primogen title still has almost no value, which is balanced by it having almost no cost. The minimum capacity was 6. What we have now seems to be that the minimum no-cost capacity for Primogen is 5, and 4-caps can have the title at a cost. (I don't think we should read Fabrizia Contreras as an indication that the capacity 'requirement' for Archbishops is now 4.) On a titled 4- or 5- cap with Presence, yeah, the title is nice even when it's Primogen or Bishop. But Primogen is still basically a no-value title, and there are still 9- and 10-cap Primogen. This new plan of making 4- and 5-cap Primogen replacing the old plan of making 9- and 10-cap Primogen, that never happened. What I'm talking about is rehabilitating the Primogen title (which currently sucks) by rehabilitating the card Will of the Council (which currently sucks). The idea of giving Priomgen limited access to cards requiring Prince was a good one, it's just the cost/benefit ratio of WotC is ridiculous. Creating situations where WotC has almost no cost (play it from your hand or ash heap, during your untap or as a Master: Trifle or as a discard phase action or something) would do that, possibly opening up some new possibilities, and wouldn't suddenly make, like, Pug Jackson broken just because he's a Primogen. > Yes, that does seem to be an improvement, especially with cards like New > Carthage that make a Primogen title considerably better. I think the old > fatty Primogen were done that way because in the RPG the Primogen were > often the city elders, older than the prince. Unfortunately, the way the > game was designed, Prince is a super awesome title and Primogen is hardly > worth the ink it takes to print the word. The Primogen vampires might've > gotten enough other perks to still make them worthwhile, but they didn't. Yeah, but they still could... somewhat, anyway.

On Apr 4, 10:42 am, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > The capacities of the Primogen in KoT are: > > 2x 4-cap (both with compensating weaknesses) > 2x 5-cap > 2x 6-cap > 1x 7-cap > 3x 8-cap > 1x 9-cap > 2x 10-cap > > So the current plan is still to make 9-10 cap Primogen. Well, yeah, ok. But the ones that are 4-5 cap are excellent vampires (even the ones with disadvantages) while the ones that are 9-10 cap are probably pretty good for being new tech 9-10 caps. But in the long run, seeing more 4-5 cap Primogen would be fantastic. > In Jyhad days, the minimum capacity for Primogen was 6 and the title > was unusual below 8. Also, *every* 9 or 10 cap was titled. Being > sparing with Prince and Justicar titles meant there were a lot of > Primogens at 9 or 10. I don't think there was anything wrong with > that per se. Oh, sure--I don't think there is anything wrong with it now, either; a good 10 cap who gets to be a Primogen as a sideline to whatever else makes them good is totally reasonable (as it is always handy to have an extra vote), but no one is ever going to use them just 'cause they are a Primogen. On the other hand, I can see selecting the 4-5 caps that are Primogen specifically 'cause they give you that extra vote. > This new plan of making 4- and 5-cap Primogen replacing the old plan > of making 9- and 10-cap Primogen, that never happened. Well, no, and that wasn't really what I was saying (I was pointing out that the plan that allows the design of 4-5 cap Primogen, which is new, is a good one). Making 4-5 caps that are Primogen (which is new with KoT) sets up a situation where being a Primogen can be seen as a viable advantage (a title on a little dude) as opposed to kind of an albatross around the neck ("I can't believe this big vampire is a Primogen. If he were a Prince, he'd be awesome!"). > What I'm talking about is rehabilitating the Primogen title (which > currently sucks) by rehabilitating the card Will of the Council (which > currently sucks). Oh, sure. But I don't think Will of the Council (which does, indeed, currently suck) is a good place to start. 'Cause it sucks. A few, actually good cards that are Primogen specific (that actually do something in and of themselves, as opposed to just letting them play a Prince card) would be a reasonable start. Someone (maybe even you :-) suggested a vote that let a Primogen steal a Prince title--that would be kinda cool (if a bit narrow). But a reasonable starting point, idea wise. > The idea of giving Priomgen limited access to cards > requiring Prince was a good one, it's just the cost/benefit ratio of > WotC is ridiculous. Creating situations where WotC has almost no cost > (play it from your hand or ash heap, during your untap or as a Master: > Trifle or as a discard phase action or something) would do that, > possibly opening up some new possibilities, and wouldn't suddenly > make, like, Pug Jackson broken just because he's a Primogen. No, but it probably wouldn't really make it actually that much better-- how many WotC (funny acronym) are going to be in a deck to facilitate how many Prince related cards for how many Primogen? Why not just use Princes in the first place? But not really important--the idea of making cards that make Primogen attractive (that actually do something) is a good one. I don't really know what Primogen do in the RPG, but if they work in council kinda deal, maybe something that gives you advantages for for having multiple Primogen--a vote modifier that gives you +1 vote for each Primogen you have in play; a bleed modifier or intercept card that works similarly. A vote card that does X damage to your prey, where X is the number of Primogen you control. Stuff like that seems like a good idea (I mean, like, maybe not those exactly, but you get the idea). -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] I can see Primogen becoming one of those "wierd attribute-style" things akin to Black Hand. Or maybe kind of "Primogen Blood Brothers"- ish. They may get intercept cards against non-Cams, additional bleed on non- Cams, etc, etc, etc. Voice of the Primogen Council Action Modifier 2 blood. Requires a primogen. This vampire gains 1 additional vote for each other ready primogen you control. Primogen Council Member Political Action. +1 stealth. Requires a titled Camarilla vampire. Choose a Camarilla Vampire. If this referendum is successful, put this card on that vampire to represent the title of Primogen. Primogen version of "Walk of Elvis"... Council Approved Action Action Modifier. 1 blood. Requires a Primogen Choose X ready primogen other than this acting primogen. Each of those vampires must burn 1 blood. This acting Primogen gains +X bleed for the current action only. Primogen Retaliation Reaction. 1 blood. Requires a Primogen. Only usable after you have been successfully bled by a non-Camarilla vampire. Choose X ready primogen other than this reacting vamprie. Tap this vampire. Each of the chosen Primogen must burn 1 blood. The minion who has just successfully bled you burns X blood or life. Primogen Disapproval Reaction Requires a Primogen. Only usable during a referendum before votes have been cast. Choose X primogen you control and this reacting vampire. Each of these chosen vampires burns 1 blood. The referendum is cancelled and the acting vampire burns X blood.

mmm suhailah = best title in the game + superior fortitude for multiaction + superior obfuscate to make action reach resolution + inherent plus bleed + good clan. all in all, a very good vampire which you really really underrated by just taking in account the inclan discipline she does not have. Interesting in many nosferatu decks (pot) and invaluable gem in :obf: princes deck.

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >On Apr 4, 10:42 am, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: >> What I'm talking about is rehabilitating the Primogen title (which >> currently sucks) by rehabilitating the card Will of the Council (which >> currently sucks). > >Oh, sure. But I don't think Will of the Council (which does, indeed, >currently suck) is a good place to start. 'Cause it sucks. A few, >actually good cards that are Primogen specific (that actually do >something in and of themselves, as opposed to just letting them play a >Prince card) would be a reasonable start. Someone (maybe even you :-) >suggested a vote that let a Primogen steal a Prince title--that would >be kinda cool (if a bit narrow). But a reasonable starting point, idea >wise. Yeah, the title stealing would probably be perfectly reasonable on a card, but not the main thrust of the card. But that aside, I was tossing some ideas around in my head over the last few days and this fell out: Power Behind The Throne +1 stealth action Requires a Primogen Put this card on the acting Primogen. When another vampire you control calls a political action, this Primogen gets 2 additional votes during the referendum. Seems like a reasonable way to get extra voting power onto a Primogen. Doesn't strictly wallpaper Will of the Council (doesn't give you the Prince fun, the extra vote from WotC can be used during the Primogen's own actions). You could get several out, but you can't breed vampires and shove this on them (Of Noble Blood requires 6+), so it's moderately slow. If it gives players an incentive to play some sort of weird Thomas de Lutrius / Reginald Moore / Emily Carson / Zane cross-over, I don't think that's too problematic. But it might give you an incentive to drop a couple of Primogen into a deck and add this for a permanent vote boost. You could add one of the conditional "Screw with a Prince / Justicar" type specials on top, if you wanted. Say, turn it into a 1 blood action and add something like: If a Prince calls a political action and the referendum fails, you may burn this card to send the Prince to torpor. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

In article <ShSAA1xy...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > But that aside, I was tossing some ideas around in my head over the last > few days and this fell out: > > Power Behind The Throne > +1 stealth action > Requires a Primogen > Put this card on the acting Primogen. When another vampire you > control calls a political action, this Primogen gets 2 additional > votes during the referendum. Yeah, see, stuff like that would be cool for Primogen. Although I'm *totally* ok with wallpapering Will of the Council. As it is a noble (ahem...) attempt, but not a good one. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does?" -Gaff

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >In article <ShSAA1xy...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, > James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >> But that aside, I was tossing some ideas around in my head over the last >> few days and this fell out: >> >> Power Behind The Throne >> +1 stealth action >> Requires a Primogen >> Put this card on the acting Primogen. When another vampire you >> control calls a political action, this Primogen gets 2 additional >> votes during the referendum. > >Yeah, see, stuff like that would be cool for Primogen. Although I'm >*totally* ok with wallpapering Will of the Council. As it is a noble >(ahem...) attempt, but not a good one. Addendum: that should also say "One per Primogen." What I meant by the wallpapering is that I don't might wildly outclassing the card, but would rather it worked slightly differently so that, still, in some weird parallel universe, there might be a reason to play the other card. Or possibly even play both. [ quoted text not captured ]