Question: First Strike and resolution

Question: Why does a strike with first strike not beat a dodge or S:CE? I understand that the VTES rulebook states this very clearly that they (dodge and S:CE) beat the first strike. No arguments that the rulebook stated that. But the rulebook leaves a lot to be desired in my opinion. What I do argue is that under First Strike (page 29 or 50 I can't remember), it also says that a strike with first strike resolves before the regular strike occur. If the strike resolves before other strikes occur (and that would be when the S:CE and dodge happen) why would the dodge and s:ce go back and override that? This just does not make any sense to me. I did read in the Deja News archives that dodge would cancel a strike that was played before or after the dodge was played. Why? Forget the rulings for a second, If I smacked you with first strike and caused damage to you and you were not able to prevent it, how could you then go back and dodge it? Same thing with S:CE. I think that the first strike should resolve and then S:CE could be played in the other players normal strike phase and the S:CE would cancel the rest of combat. I do not believe that letting first strike resolve before dodge and S:CE would unbalance the game in any way. If anything, it would help out by giving a way around the S:CE abuse that you see (at least in my playgroup). Its not like first strike will change the face that combat decks (in general) do not do well at all in tournament play either. Any help on this would be great. TB -- Email me at: T_Banister@Premier-Lending****.com You need to remove the **** to get a valid email address.

Todd Banister wrote: > > Question: Why does a strike with first strike not beat a dodge or S:CE? I > understand that the VTES rulebook states this very clearly that they (dodge > and S:CE) beat the first strike. No arguments that the rulebook stated > that. But the rulebook leaves a lot to be desired in my opinion. > > What I do argue is that under First Strike (page 29 or 50 I can't > remember), it also says that a strike with first strike resolves before the > regular strike occur. If the strike resolves before other strikes occur > (and that would be when the S:CE and dodge happen) No. Strike: Comabt Ends and Strike: Dodge are not regular strikes. They are special strikes. Strike: Comabt Ends ends combat at the start of strike resolution. Strike: Dodge cancel any effect the opposing strike has on the Dodging minion and any non-Retainer cards on him. If you like, Dodge doesn't resolve first - but it does retroactively cancel the effects of the opposing strike. So, you might as well say that it resolves first, to avoid confusion. why would the dodge and > s:ce go back and override that? This just does not make any sense to me. I > did read in the Deja News archives that dodge would cancel a strike that > was played before or after the dodge was played. Why? Forget the rulings > for a second, If I smacked you with first strike and caused damage to you > and you were not able to prevent it, how could you then go back and dodge > it? You dodge it. The strike misses. That it was done with First Strike is immaterial - you dodged it faster. Strikes are declared (played) in one order (acting player first), then resolve according to the nature of the strike: S:CE first (since it resolves at the start of the resolution step, ending the whole step), then Dodge (since it mostly cancels the opposing strike and this timing makes it easier to follow), then any other strike done with First Strike (for obvious reasons), then any other strike (to catch the rest). > Same thing with S:CE. I think that the first strike should resolve and > then S:CE could be played in the other players normal strike phase and the > S:CE would cancel the rest of combat. I do not believe that letting first > strike resolve before dodge and S:CE would unbalance the game in any way. It is balance - it's just the WayThingsAre. Leaving it this way doesn't unbalance the game, either. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

First of all, thanks for the response. > Strikes are declared (played) in one order (acting player first), then > resolve according to the nature of the strike: S:CE first (since > it resolves at the start of the resolution step, ending the whole step), > then Dodge (since it mostly cancels the opposing strike and this timing > makes it easier to follow), then any other strike done with First Strike > (for obvious reasons), then any other strike (to catch the rest). > This is where I was wrong. When I read the pages in the VTES book, it states that First Strike resolves before other strikes occur. I understand that S:CE and Dodge are special. I took the statement that the strike resolved first in its own resolution phase just like the additional strikes resolve in their own phase after the normal phases. I thought there were three parts (First Srike phase, Normal phase, and Additional Strike phase). Thats why I did not understand why S:CE and Dodge would override First Strike. Guess I should have read your breakdown of the turn in the DejaNews archives. :) A few more questions: When is the Tourney in SC? Any info would be great. Is there any way around Thoughts Betrayed? I assume the answer is no. Thanks again TB -- Email me at: T_Banister@Premier-Lending****.com You need to remove the **** to get a valid email address. -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com wrote: > A few more questions: > When is the Tourney in SC? Any info would be great. Feb. 21, 1998 See http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/9876/praxis_cola.html for more information, as it becomes available. > Is there any way around Thoughts Betrayed? I assume the answer is no. Mostly, no. You can cancel TB with Direct Intervention, and you can get out of combat with Elysium or Mariel (or Legacy of Power). And so on - with cards in play or cards that other minions (or Methuselahs) play. [ quoted text not captured ]

T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com wrote: > Is there any way around Thoughts Betrayed? I assume the answer is no. > > Thanks again > > TB well, there are the things lsj said...also: Guns, or other weapons. you can use cards already in play with TB, so guns tend to be good. also, weenies. your opponent spends 2 blood to hurt one of your guys bad (plus costs for the hurting bits) but then you have many more to do whatever. losing one is no great loss, and unless they have good blood gain, your opponent shall run out of blood before he/she cuts through all your minions. just my silly view on things.... salem..

On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com wrote: > Is there any way around Thoughts Betrayed? I assume the answer is no. Well, one could always ban the thing, or make a house rule that it only works against younger vampires. But even without such laudable measures one is not completely helpless. Certain Master Out-Of-Turn cards may be played in combat. Direct Invervention: A rare Sabbat master card which allows one to cancel the effects of any one opposing minion card. It's main disadvantage is that it is a rare Sabbat card (I don't have one either). Also, it does not prevent ones opponent from playing a second TB if he has one, whereas you are unlikely to be able to play a second Master-OOT. Rotschreck: Allows one to put those Lasombra/Giovanni scumbags in torpor if they attempt to do aggravated damage, which is probably their intent. One disadvantage is that it does not work against environmental damage. Another is that it is often banned on account of its confusing text (which required extensive errata). I'm not sure if it is still banned in tournament play. Frenzy: It is unlikely that this card will do you any good whatsoever, but, since it is a master, you COULD play it after TB "before range is chosen". Prevents your opponents from relying on equipment or pressing to end combat, neither of which he is likely planning to do. It also gives the combat an automatic press, which is probably the last thing you need. Still, with enough permanents in play, like maybe Spawning Pool.... Problem with all the above cards is that they do not work on your turn, so are no help if you are blocked, etc. Those superior Dominators tend to belong to a specific clan, so you could use clan hosers. Cultivated Blood Shortage will tend to ensure that Ventrue have insufficient blood to play TB. Malkavian Derangement or Malkavian Dementia could be useful against Malkavians. In the unlikely event that your opposing Thought Betrayers happen to be Brujah (Constanza Vinti and Donal O'Connor come to mind), you could play Brujah Frenzy when they try to rush you, and sent them elsewhere. Play Sudden Reversal when they try to put superior Dominate on their vamps. Memories of Mortality can make one thought betrayers vulnerable to attack by allies, since any damage he inflicts on them will be reduced to 0. This only lasts til his next influence phase, but then he is forced to burn a blood or go into torpor. Since TB costs 2 pool, anything that forces them to burn blood is a good thing. Play Millicent Smith. Then block his actions when he controls her. Certain minion cards, played outside of combat, give effects that will be useful in combat. For instance: Block with Guard Dogs and you have an optional maneuver, block with Rat's Warning and you have an optional press. Precognition allows you to prevent 1 damage and Spirits touch gives an optional maneuver. Alacrity gives an optional maneuver. Veiled sight allows one to steal one blood from the opposing minion as a strike. Mind Tricks gives an optional press or maneuver. Dawn Operation makes all damage in the resulting combat aggravated, and at superior, your opponent cannot back out. Eyes of the Night also gives a maneuver or press. Most important is Uncontrollable Rage. Rush them with this card, and hope they don't have a dodge. Kiss of Ra is useful in case those TBers attempt to block you. The main disadvantage of this card is that it is considered almost as cheesy as TB itself. Burn his blood so he does not have enough to use TB. Jar the Soul and Cryptic Mission are particularly useful here. I have a cryptic mission deck that would probably hose most TB decks. It also uses Seeds of Corruption, which would cause them to burn 2 blood with every action. Fast Reaction and Hidden Lurker can get you into combat with these suckers when they don't expect it, preventing them from playing strikes, and starts a new combat just after, most likely, they have already used TB. They are not prevented from playing another TB, however [though I think they should be--see seperate post]. Serpentis can be useful against these suckers. Put a Mark of Damnation upon them and then assault them with hordes of weenies. You can also tempt them, corrupt them and inflict phobias upon them. Heart of darkness can be useful for surviving their attacks. Reliance on permanents is of course the main strategy against these jokers. Elesium is extremely important. Its fun to tap it to end combat immediately after they burn 2 blood. You can always go after them with a Rengade Garou equipped with a Bang Nakh, a Sengir Dagger, a Flak Jacket, a Leather Jacket, and a Ghoul Retainer. Of course, your opponent, who has superior dominate, is only going to steal him with Far Mastery before you are done equipping. Lupus Australis ____ ____ \ \----/ / |()__()| __\ __ /__ / __\()/__ \ |/ \==/ \| | || |

salem christ.... wrote in message <34B322...@god.is.smelly>... >T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com wrote: > >> Is there any way around Thoughts Betrayed? I assume the answer is no. >> >> Thanks again >> >> TB > >well, there are the things lsj said...also: Guns, or other weapons. you >can use cards already in play with TB, so guns tend to be good. also, >weenies. your opponent spends 2 blood to hurt one of your guys bad (plus >costs for the hurting bits) but then you have many more to do whatever. >losing one is no great loss, and unless they have good blood gain, your >opponent shall run out of blood before he/she cuts through all your >minions. > I haven't played in a while, but my last deck was a Malkavian Disguised Weapon deck, with mostly small vamps (Watenda, Doll Face, Roland Bishop, etc...). Though it could take a bit to set it up, once I had my minions all geared up it was very hard to stop, and it managed to beat a few TB combat decks (at least one Tremere deck and one Brujah w/ Dom deck that I can remember of...). It was one of the most fun decks I ever played... :-) Flux [ quoted text not captured ]

Lupus Australis wrote: > On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com wrote: > > > Is there any way around Thoughts Betrayed? I assume the answer is > no. > > Well, one could always ban the thing, or make a house rule that it > only > works against younger vampires. But even without such laudable > measures > one is not completely helpless. > (snipped the rest) As Lupus wrote: the key is: have the right permanents. The only (reaction) card to counter TB I missed in his list is Obediance (card text: is about to enter combat, card text of TB: played before combat), but you need Dominate yourself. Another location you may use is Living Manse (Tzimisce) to end combat. The best defense is in my opinion to have some small, expandable vamps / allies to block those Dominators so that the use of TB is not justified any more by its effect. Gangrel Antitribu may laugh at TB when they have one or two Shadow Court Satyr active, both with Earth Meld to end combat... Another "defense" may be the vote "Anathema" as some kind of insurance. The moment your key vamp is reduced to 0 blood he is burned (that's what your enemy intended anyway) but you get his cost in pool repayed. So you can get his second copy out at 0 cost (that your enemy did not intend :) Last thing is: TB costs blood. Use "Banishment".

Michael Beer wrote: > > On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com wrote: > > > > > Is there any way around Thoughts Betrayed? > > Another "defense" may be the vote "Anathema" as some kind of insurance. > The moment your key vamp is reduced to 0 blood he is burned (that's what > your enemy intended anyway) but you get his cost in pool repayed. So you > can get his second copy out at 0 cost (that your enemy did not intend :) Anathema rewards the opponent's controller with your vampire's cost in pool. The reward doesn't go to you. [ quoted text not captured ]