Number of players: 21
Deck Name: Me pareció ver un lindo gatito
Created By: Miguel del Valle
Crypt [(17 vampires, average capacity: 2)
------------------------------------------
2x Mata Hari CHI OBF aus for qui 7 Ravnos:4 2 votes
1x Shawnda Dorrit CEL obt pot pre 6 Brujah antitribu:4 priscus
14x Tupdog POT VIS 1 Gargoyle:3
Library (60 cards)
-------------------
Master (10)
3x Direct Intervention
1x Jake Washington (Hunter)
3x Memories of Mortality
1x Pentex(TM) Subversion
1x Waste Management Operation
1x Zoning Board
Action (2)
1x Arson
1x Concert Tour
Action Modifier (5)
5x Skin of the Chameleon
Ally (20)
1x Carlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
1x Gregory Winter
2x Mylan Horseed (Goblin)
1x Ossian
11x Rock Cat
3x Vagabond Mystic
1x War Ghoul
Event (3)
1x Dragonbound
2x Unmasking, The
Political Action (8)
7x Autarkis Persecution
1x Mark of the Damned
Reaction (4)
4x Bloodstorm of Chorazin
Retainer (1)
1x D'habi Revenant
Combat (7)
3x Disarm
4x Immortal Grapple
In article
<432c6181-86bc-407f...@l6g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
i_red...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Crypt [(17 vampires, average capacity: 2)
> ------------------------------------------
> 2x Mata Hari CHI OBF aus for qui 7 Ravnos:4 2 votes
> 1x Shawnda Dorrit CEL obt pot pre 6 Brujah antitribu:4 priscus
> 14x Tupdog POT VIS 1 Gargoyle:3
I'm deeply confused by this deck. What does it do? And how does it do it?
> Library (60 cards)
> -------------------
> Master (10)
> 3x Direct Intervention
> 1x Jake Washington (Hunter)
> 3x Memories of Mortality
> 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion
> 1x Waste Management Operation
> 1x Zoning Board
>
> Action (2)
> 1x Arson
> 1x Concert Tour
>
> Action Modifier (5)
> 5x Skin of the Chameleon
>
> Ally (20)
> 1x Carlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
> 1x Gregory Winter
> 2x Mylan Horseed (Goblin)
> 1x Ossian
> 11x Rock Cat
> 3x Vagabond Mystic
> 1x War Ghoul
Ok. A lot of Rock Cats. That are expensive and can fight. Kind of. Ok.
> Event (3)
> 1x Dragonbound
> 2x Unmasking, The
And some Ally based intercept. But not tons, ok.
> Political Action (8)
> 7x Autarkis Persecution
> 1x Mark of the Damned
And some Autarkis Persecution to potentially gain a ton of pool, sure,
but not really any good way to pass the votes and when they do pass,
will just be handing out tons of pool to everyone else too.
> Reaction (4)
> 4x Bloodstorm of Chorazin
>
> Retainer (1)
> 1x D'habi Revenant
>
> Combat (7)
> 3x Disarm
> 4x Immortal Grapple
Is there something important I'm missing? I mean, clearly, there is
something very clever about this deck. I just can't see what it is.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
"Find hungry samurai."
-The Old Man
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 11:18:54 -0500, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com>
wrote:
>> Political Action (8)
>> 7x Autarkis Persecution
>> 1x Mark of the Damned
[...]
> Is there something important I'm missing? I mean, clearly, there is
> something very clever about this deck. I just can't see what it is.
Dude. Get a grip. This is a Mark of the Damned deck!!! ;)
--
Regards,
Daneel
On Dec 31, 2:10 pm, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 11:18:54 -0500, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com>> wrote:
>
> >> Political Action (8)
> >> 7x Autarkis Persecution
> >> 1x Mark of the Damned
>
> [...]
>
> > Is there something important I'm missing? I mean, clearly, there is
> > something very clever about this deck. I just can't see what it is.
>
> Dude. Get a grip. This is a Mark of the Damned deck!!! ;)
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Daneel
Mark of the Dammed? Doesn't that need serpentis?
In article <opt37ri0...@news.chello.hu>, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu>
wrote:
> Dude. Get a grip. This is a Mark of the Damned deck!!! ;)
Ahh. Clearly that was the cog I was missing out on...
Boggle.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article
<f94a373f-8967-412a...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"adam....@gmail.com" <adam....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark of the Dammed? Doesn't that need serpentis?
No, no. That is Mark of Damnation. Mark of the Dammed is a PA that makes
everyone burn a pool for every vampire in their ash heap (?!?!?!?!?)
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Dec 31, 6:41 am, i_reden...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Number of players: 21
>
> Deck Name: Me pareció ver un lindo gatito
> Created By: Miguel del Valle
Like, again, I'm in no way trying to be mean here--this deck clearly
looks like it is doing something really clever (if really obscure).
And it won a tournament, so clearly it worked against a presumably
average field of decks. But still. I'm totally not seeing at all what
it is doing to do something other than maybe get out a bunch of
allies, call Autarkis Persecution, gain a bunch of pool, give a bunch
of pool to everyone else, beat some folks up with Rock Cats (assuming
they have no combat defense whatsoever) and then eventually get Mata
Hari out and see her get killed for being Red List.
Could someone who was near this deck enlighten us?
> Crypt [(17 vampires, average capacity: 2)
> ------------------------------------------
> 2x Mata Hari CHI OBF aus for qui 7 Ravnos:4 2 votes
> 1x Shawnda Dorrit CEL obt pot pre 6 Brujah antitribu:4 priscus
> 14x Tupdog POT VIS 1 Gargoyle:3
Ok. If you can get out both Mata and Shawnda, you can theoretically
have 5 votes. Which makes passing the Autarkis easier. But you are
unlikely to draw Mata or Shawnda till you play a whole bunch of
Tupdogs. Which is costing pool and Tupdogs can't take D actions. So
you spend a bunch or pool and turns getting out Tupdogs who maybe get
some Rock Cats as you fish for Mata Hari. And then get ousted?
> Library (60 cards)
> -------------------
> Master (10)
> 3x Direct Intervention
> 1x Jake Washington (Hunter)
> 3x Memories of Mortality
> 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion
> 1x Waste Management Operation
> 1x Zoning Board
Ok. The Memories help the Rock Cats. But they don't keep you from
being ousted.
> Action (2)
> 1x Arson
> 1x Concert Tour
>
> Action Modifier (5)
> 5x Skin of the Chameleon
>
> Ally (20)
> 1x Carlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
> 1x Gregory Winter
> 2x Mylan Horseed (Goblin)
> 1x Ossian
> 11x Rock Cat
> 3x Vagabond Mystic
> 1x War Ghoul
Ok. Lots of allies. So you get out lots of allies. Including Rock Cat,
who is really good at killing weenie vampires. But not real good
against bigger vampires with things like manuevers or guns. Or
Potence. And they cost 4 pool. And can't bleed. But in any case, you
get out a lot of allies and call Autarkis. Which gives you a bunch of
pool. To get more allies. That can't bleed much. And gives out more
pool to your prey, which you can't really take away from your prey.
> Event (3)
> 1x Dragonbound
> 2x Unmasking, The
Unmasking is good. Gives your allies +1 intercept. But it stops there.
Dragonbound is good. If your prey has a lot of little vampires in
torpor from getting beat up by Rock Cats.
> Political Action (8)
> 7x Autarkis Persecution
> 1x Mark of the Damned
Ok. The Autarkis is key, certainly. But it gives you pool, gives your
prey pool, gives your predator pool, and makes sure folks never get
ousted. Especially your prey? And the Mark of the Damned is likely to
make you lose a lot of pool (due to the burned Tupdogs) and not make
anyone else lose much pool.
> Reaction (4)
> 4x Bloodstorm of Chorazin
Reasonable. If Mata Hari could reliably block anyone.
> Retainer (1)
> 1x D'habi Revenant
Good.
> Combat (7)
> 3x Disarm
> 4x Immortal Grapple
Good for Rock Cat, sure. Unless someone Manuevers to long with a Gun
or something.
Like, again, really, I'm not trying to be mean or slag the deck or
anything. It looks clearly very well thought out. And looks like it
could do well in a really specific, weird environment (where everyone
else is, say, playing lots of little weenie vampires with no combat
defense at all, and not a ton of bleed. And not a ton of intercept.
And no combat offense.) It is also possible that there is a rules/card
text misunderstanding somewhere that everyone missed out on that could
use some illumination.
Anyone?
-Peter
Peter D Bakija wrote:
> In article
> <f94a373f-8967-412a...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> "adam....@gmail.com" <adam....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Mark of the Dammed? Doesn't that need serpentis?>
> No, no. That is Mark of Damnation. Mark of the Dammed is a PA that makes
> everyone burn a pool for every vampire in their ash heap (?!?!?!?!?)
>
Burn a pool for every vampire in their *prey's* ash heap. This deck
obviously goes backwards and crosstable a lot. Still can't get around
the fact that Rock Cats cost 4.
best -
chris
--
Super Fun Cards
http://stores.ebay.com/superfuncards/
auct...@superfuncards.com
"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:pdb6-62F7A2.1...@news-server.stny.rr.com...
> In article
> <f94a373f-8967-412a...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> "adam....@gmail.com" <adam....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Mark of the Dammed? Doesn't that need serpentis?>
> No, no. That is Mark of Damnation. Mark of the Dammed is a PA that makes
> everyone burn a pool for every vampire in their ash heap (?!?!?!?!?)
er, burn a pool for every vampire in their _prey's_ ash heap. So, like,
if you had a bunch of Tupdogs in your ash heap and this in your hand,
you usually will have the power of life or death over your predator.
Especially useful as a finisher when you're down to two players.
Fred
"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:pdb6-62F7A2.1...@news-server.stny.rr.com...
> In article
> <f94a373f-8967-412a...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> "adam....@gmail.com" <adam....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Mark of the Dammed? Doesn't that need serpentis?>
> No, no. That is Mark of Damnation. Mark of the Dammed is a PA that makes
> everyone burn a pool for every vampire in their ash heap (?!?!?!?!?)
er, burn a pool for every vampire in their _prey's_ ash heap. So, like,
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 14:40:39 -0800 (PST), Peter D Bakija
<pd...@lightlink.com> wrote:
>> Political Action (8)
>> 7x Autarkis Persecution
>> 1x Mark of the Damned>
>Ok. The Autarkis is key, certainly. But it gives you pool, gives your
>prey pool, gives your predator pool, and makes sure folks never get
>ousted. Especially your prey? And the Mark of the Damned is likely to
>make you lose a lot of pool (due to the burned Tupdogs) and not make
>anyone else lose much pool.
You don't burn pool foryour TupDogs when you Mark of the Damned. Your
predator does.
>Like, again, really, I'm not trying to be mean or slag the deck or
>anything. It looks clearly very well thought out. And looks like it
>could do well in a really specific, weird environment (where everyone
>else is, say, playing lots of little weenie vampires with no combat
>defense at all, and not a ton of bleed. And not a ton of intercept.
>And no combat offense.) It is also possible that there is a rules/card
>text misunderstanding somewhere that everyone missed out on that could
>use some illumination.
The only thing I can think of is the possibility of a
misinterpretation of Mark of the Damned.
Mark of the Damned
Type: Political Action
If this referendum is successful, each Methuselah burns X pool, where
X is the number of vampires in his or her prey's ash heap.
If it was interpreted in reverse (prey takes damage).
Or, he went backwards until it got to 2, then played it.
Or, he sent out the "Don't shoot us, we're pathetic!" transmission.*
and was able to mop up sufficiently. Which I could see working in the
first rounds, but with only 21 people in the tourney, you have to
figure at least one of the people at the final table knew what the
deck did.
* $1 to John Chricton.
Morgan Vening
- I've won individual games with worse. But never anything
competitive. Congrats for pulling it off.
On Jan 1, 12:40 am, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> On Dec 31, 6:41 am, i_reden...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Number of players: 21
>
> > Deck Name: Me pareció ver un lindo gatito
> > Created By: Miguel del Valle
>> 1x Waste Management Operation
I'm guessing the Waste Management Operation was this deck's saving
grace? Although one sudden/wash/successful arson would've shutdown the
deck entirely then.
> > Political Action (8)
> > 7x Autarkis Persecution
> > 1x Mark of the Damned
Is this correct? Only 1 Mark of the Damned in a deck that is supposed
to run off of the card?
>
> Ok. The Autarkis is key, certainly. But it gives you pool, gives your
> prey pool, gives your predator pool, and makes sure folks never get
> ousted. Especially your prey? And the Mark of the Damned is likely to
> make you lose a lot of pool (due to the burned Tupdogs) and not make
> anyone else lose much pool.
No.
Mark of the Damned, Political Action, C2 , [AH:C2]
Political Card - Worth 1 Vote. Called by any vampire at +1 stealth. If
this referendum is successful, each Methuselah burns X pool, where X
is the number of vampires in his or her ***PREY'S*** ash heap.
It's gonna make your predator lose a ton of pool. How that makes you
win is beyond me (with only one MotD and one way of recovering the
card and no vote push)? Although I'd place my bet on recurring MotD
and backwards ousting. That, or they misread the card and read that
your prey receives the damage from your burnt vampires.
> Like, again, really, I'm not trying to be mean or slag the deck or
> anything. It looks clearly very well thought out. And looks like it
> could do well in a really specific, weird environment (where everyone
> else is, say, playing lots of little weenie vampires with no combat
> defense at all, and not a ton of bleed. And not a ton of intercept.
> And no combat offense.) It is also possible that there is a rules/card
> text misunderstanding somewhere that everyone missed out on that could
> use some illumination.
>
> Anyone?
>
I'd also guess this only won due to some weird environment or table
play in the finals. Maybe some king-making was involved? The deck
seems very fragile to me, way too many moving parts, and way too much
that can go wrong. It must've had a really lucky run. I'd be
interested, like you, to find out how it really won.
In article
<50de7b7a-7b8f-41a4...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
The Name Forgotten <tex...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> Is this correct? Only 1 Mark of the Damned in a deck that is supposed
> to run off of the card?
Heh. Even with the actual understanding of how Mark of the Damned works,
I'm not seeing how Mark of the Damned is actually helping this deck oust
anyone. Other than its predator.
> Mark of the Damned, Political Action, C2 , [AH:C2]
> Political Card - Worth 1 Vote. Called by any vampire at +1 stealth. If
> this referendum is successful, each Methuselah burns X pool, where X
> is the number of vampires in his or her ***PREY'S*** ash heap.
Ah. Clever. With the Tupdogs, you can *really* backoust your predator.
Well, unless you have already given him 15 pool with the Autarkis
Pursecutions.
> It's gonna make your predator lose a ton of pool. How that makes you
> win is beyond me (with only one MotD and one way of recovering the
> card and no vote push)? Although I'd place my bet on recurring MotD
> and backwards ousting. That, or they misread the card and read that
> your prey receives the damage from your burnt vampires.
Yeah, see, that is what I'm figuring is actually going on here--there is
some minor text understanding error somewhere that makes a huge
difference in the running of the deck.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <98fej.40722$1C4....@newsfe10.phx>,
"Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:
> er, burn a pool for every vampire in their _prey's_ ash heap. So, like,
> if you had a bunch of Tupdogs in your ash heap and this in your hand,
> you usually will have the power of life or death over your predator.
> Especially useful as a finisher when you're down to two players.
Yeah, now that that is apparent, that is at least something tricky.
Maybe it, uh, just tries to stay alive while its prey gains 3VPs by
killing everyone else at the table, and then when you and the other guy
are left at the table, and no one expects it, you call a Mark of the
Damned with 15 Tupdogs in the ashheap to make your predator (now the
last guy at the table) lose 15 pool? Asusming he can't block you, vote
you down, or survive the 15 pool loss, given that he has ousted 3 people
and benefitted from the multiple Autarkises called to keep you alive?
And then you end up with 2VPs. And not a table win...
Still confused.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <A6fej.12892$Gr4....@newsfe08.phx>,
librarian <auct...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
> Burn a pool for every vampire in their *prey's* ash heap. This deck
> obviously goes backwards and crosstable a lot. Still can't get around
> the fact that Rock Cats cost 4.
Goes backwards and crosstable doing what? The Rock Cats can certainly
beat up little vampires with no defense at all. But if the opponents
have mid cap vampires with some kind of combat defense (fortitude,
manuevers) *or* actual combat offense, the Rock Cats cost 4 and die
(except for the Memories, but only 3 of those). The the Tupdogs can't do
anything other than call votes, recruit allies, and, uh, hunt?
The only pool defense this deck has is Autarkis Persecution (which helps
everyone else out too). The only combat defense this deck has is Tupdog
or an ally blocking the Redlist Rush on Mata Hari. Not much
stealth--yeah, Tupdog can get +3 stealth occasionally, but likely not
enough to get past an even half consistent intercept deck.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Jan 1, 5:56 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> In article <A6fej.12892$Gr4.8...@newsfe08.phx>,
>
> librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:> Goes backwards and crosstable doing what? The Rock Cats can certainly
> beat up little vampires with no defense at all. But if the opponents
> have mid cap vampires with some kind of combat defense (fortitude,
> manuevers) *or* actual combat offense, the Rock Cats cost 4 and die
> (except for the Memories, but only 3 of those). The the Tupdogs can't do
> anything other than call votes, recruit allies, and, uh, hunt?
I'm guessing that's all the Tupdogs really need to do. The Rock Cats
is decent combat pressure if you can pull out enough of them. Nothing
worse than wasting a bunch of combat cards on a crappy ally for a
combat deck - and combat decks aren't that popular to begin with.
> The only pool defense this deck has is Autarkis Persecution (which helps
> everyone else out too). The only combat defense this deck has is Tupdog
> or an ally blocking the Redlist Rush on Mata Hari. Not much
> stealth--yeah, Tupdog can get +3 stealth occasionally, but likely not
> enough to get past an even half consistent intercept deck.
Small deck, lots of things that can get out of your hand quickly. If
someone blocks, so what, you can pull out another and another, until
they can't.
As I said, I really think the only way a deck like this could win is
either through king-making, or by successively backousting everyone on
the table, one at a time, using Waste Management Operation and Mark of
the Damned, and keeping everyone else afloat by autarkis persecution
until you get through to them. That way everyone ends up with 1VP and
you end up with 2. Still, like you said, with very little stealth,
it's surprising nobody was there with a smattering of intercept to
stop the deck flat.
Maybe not a GW, but good enough to get you into the finals, and good
enough to win the tournament at the end. I've seen some pretty crummy
last-seed decks win tournaments in the past, because all the other big
bad decks proceeded to knock the snot out of each other and pave the
way for others to take a couple of VP's and win.
On Dec 31 2007, 2:40 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> On Dec 31, 6:41 am, i_reden...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Number of players: 21
>
> > Deck Name: Me pareció ver un lindo gatito
> > Created By: Miguel del Valle
>
> Like, again, I'm in no way trying to be mean here--this deck clearly
> looks like it is doing something really clever (if really obscure).
> And it won a tournament, so clearly it worked against a presumably
> average field of decks. But still. I'm totally not seeing at all what
> it is doing to do something other than maybe get out a bunch of
> allies, call Autarkis Persecution, gain a bunch of pool, give a bunch
> of pool to everyone else, beat some folks up with Rock Cats (assuming
> they have no combat defense whatsoever) and then eventually get Mata
> Hari out and see her get killed for being Red List.
>
> Could someone who was near this deck enlighten us?
Could always build and play it yourself. It's something I've done in
the past when I was confused as to how a deck could function. In
general, I find playing other people's decks on occasion to be
valuable for getting out of a particular mindset/generating new
ideas. The less the deck makes sense (while seeming to have some
functionality, which a TWD is more likely to), the better a candidate.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Using my rusty understanding of Portuguese, and using it to translate
their spanish forum, this is what I can gather:
On the first table:
Giovanni (shambling hordes deck), some sort of auspex deck (likely to
be !Malk), rock cat's deck, imbued and setites (with dragon breath
rounds???).
The rock cat's deck got 2.5 VP's.
On the second table:
Auspex deck, A wall-deck revolving around Justine (had smiling jack),
"sacred/holy" giovanni, then Rock Cats deck, then another Giovanni
deck. Not sure which one was the shambling hordes deck.
There was also a third table. Can't find out what happened with this
deck on that table tho.
No report on the final table either - although (from the reports of
the prelims) it's likely that the weenie potence, the Tzimisce
warghoul/political, Imbued and the !Malks were there alongside this
deck.
Other decks floating around were:
!Ventrue, Tzimisce political/war ghoul deck, !Toreador, Tremere, and ?
weenie? ('tortas') potence
Seems like it was the Dragonbound in the end that did the most damage
though. Looking at the likely decks at the final table, I could see
how it could possibly win. Pretty strange ally-intensive environment,
with the 2 non-ally decks being weenie potence (which Rock Cat's will
probably eat up), and !Malks, which can't handle just about any
combat. Still, don't know how this deck would've really handled the
Imbued short of that Mark of the Damned.
Don't know if that helps any, but that's the best I can do as an
outsider.
On Jan 1, 8:56 pm, The Name Forgotten <tex...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Jan 1, 7:54 pm, The Name Forgotten <tex...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 1, 5:56 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
>
>
> There was also a third table. Can't find out what happened with this
> deck on that table tho.> Other decks floating around were:> !Ventrue, Tzimisce political/war ghoul deck, !Toreador, Tremere, and ?
> weenie? ('tortas') potence
>> No report on the final table either - although (from the reports of
> the prelims) it's likely that the weenie potence, the Tzimisce
> warghoul/political, Imbued and the !Malks were there alongside this
> deck.
>
Sorry, my 3lit3 backtracking skills failed me... writing the response
by adding bits and pieces in between as I found them might not have
been so clever. I put it back in the correct order here tho.
On Dec 31 2007, 11:40 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> On Dec 31, 6:41 am, i_reden...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Anyone?
>
> -Peter
When you put your first vampire into play, there will be ~3 Rock Cats
waiting to rush it.
How would you handle it?
"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:pdb6-9AA1BC.1...@news-server.stny.rr.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Well, I sort of gathered that the main part of the deck was really the
Rock Cats, who presumedly rushed opposing minions, pummeled them, put
them into torpor and moved on. It doesn't look terribly effective the
way it's implemented in the deck (other than what someone else pointed
out - that the Rock Cats will begin to make their entrance very fast
given the 1 cap Tupdogs) but there you go.
Maybe it's the MI5 persecution that really makes it tick. :-P
Fred
In article
<d0917c2a-df25-4db4...@i72g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com wrote:
> When you put your first vampire into play, there will be ~3 Rock Cats
> waiting to rush it.
>
> How would you handle it?
A) Fortitude.
B) S:CE
D) Kill the Rock Cats.
But if all the other vampires in play have zero combat defense and are
capacity 3 and smaller, I can see a lot of troubles.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Jan 1, 5:04 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> sg3kmb613sdf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > When you put your first vampire into play, there will be ~3 Rock Cats
> > waiting to rush it.
>
> > How would you handle it?
>
> A) Fortitude.
>
> B) S:CE
>
> D) Kill the Rock Cats.
>
> But if all the other vampires in play have zero combat defense and are
> capacity 3 and smaller, I can see a lot of troubles.
>
> Peter D Bakija
There are many more situations where first turn x3 Tupdog, second turn
x3 Rock Cat is a problem than just when playing zero combat defense
and tiny vampires.
S:CE is likely to run out against three rushes a turn, nevermind IG.
Fortitude is in a lot more trouble due to the Cat's press. How many
decks just beat Rock Cat in combat? Animalism, sure. If you have the
Concealed .44 as soon as you bring out a vamp, sure. Others too, but
not so many.
Even a trade isn't productive - in the early game, trading a RC for a
vampire should be in favor of this deck.
That being said, if you know the deck, there are some things I'd
consider early in the game even when not facing x3 Cats before
bringing out a vamp.
First, the general strategy would be to attack the player's pool.
Down low enough and the pool cost of Tupdog/Cat becomes prohibitive.
Of course, this is where Autarkis comes in; given a Cheetah start, the
pool gain can go off before there's opposition or the Cats can take
out voters first, which provides the fuel to flood the table with more
Cats.
Second, bring out more than one minion at once with the idea that one
of them can get through for pool damage.
Third, coordinate with the player on the other side. If the predator
of the deck, then bringing out minions right behind the deck's prey
puts a lot of targets in play, though the deck would still likely try
to maim the predator first. If the prey, plan on rescuing the deck's
predator to put pressure on it. Even the deck's grandpredator may
like the idea of its prey getting beaten down repeatedly before either
ousting the deck or failing to.
It would be interesting to know how much game there is without a
strong start, but the potential out of the gate does seem to be an
important part that is getting missed. Then, many players aren't
mentally prepared for every deck, so the potential for making a
mistake against this one seems much higher than normal. Most of this
thread is about not understanding the deck, which should be evidence
enough of this angle to it.
Peter D Bakija wrote:
>> Retainer (1)
>> 1x D'habi Revenant>
> Good.
...but only for the burn option.
"The Baali with this retainer gets +1 bleed."
I thought Mata only counted as a Baali for playing the card and any
lingering duration effects, but not for 'minion with this card...' type
effects?
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
i_red...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Number of players: 21
>
> Deck Name: Me pareció ver un lindo gatito
> Created By: Miguel del Valle
>
>
>
> Crypt [(17 vampires, average capacity: 2)
> ------------------------------------------
> 2x Mata Hari CHI OBF aus for qui 7 Ravnos:4 2 votes
> 1x Shawnda Dorrit CEL obt pot pre 6 Brujah antitribu:4 priscus
> 14x Tupdog POT VIS 1 Gargoyle:3> 2x Mylan Horseed (Goblin)
I assume Mylan is there either for his bleed (which is fairly cheap),
and/or blocking other people's allies attacking your guys? Since he
can't untap Mata....
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Jan 2, 8:56 am, Salem <salem_christ....@hotmail.com> wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Your assumption on this appears correct. From the spanish forum:
Llevaba Mata Hari, Shawne Dorrit (la brujah priscus) y el goblin para
ir sangrando muuuuuuy poco a poco. Tambien usa dragonbound y autarkis
persecution para ganar pool y un toque magico que vereis cuando Miguel
publique el mazo que es en lo que se quedo.
(excuse my poor translation)
It uses Mata Hari, Shawne Dorrit (the brujah priscus) and the goblin
to bleed very little by little. Also uses dragonbound and autarkis
persecution to gain pool and a magic touch ??? very carefully Miguel
manipulated the table with it ???
I'm not so sure about the last part. Anyone spanish want to translate
it for us? The original posts are here:
http://dnn.vtes.net/Foros/tabid/403/forumid/5/tpage/4/view/Topic/postid/40781/Default.aspx
On Jan 1, 8:56 pm, The Name Forgotten <tex...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Jan 1, 7:54 pm, The Name Forgotten <tex...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 1, 5:56 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
>
> > > In article <A6fej.12892$Gr4.8...@newsfe08.phx>,
>
> > > librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>
> On the second table:
> Auspex deck, A wall-deck revolving around Justine (had smiling jack),
> "sacred/holy" giovanni, then Rock Cats deck, then another Giovanni
> deck. Not sure which one was the shambling hordes deck.
Ahh... 'sangrando' is 'bleeding' not "sacred/holy" - so it's a bleed
giovanni deck. Which would make the latter giovanni deck the shambling
hordes one.
[ quoted text not captured ]> enough of this angle to it.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah, look it might be able to nab that 1st VP on the table, but then
what? While we might not understand the deck so well here, if you were
sitting in a game and just watched it race through it's first prey,
something tell's me you won't be making any silly mistakes of
underestimating the deck.
And your second prey will have had a decent amount of time to get out
vamps and get going - especially since this Rock Cat deck will not be
bleeding out it's first prey too quickly, unless that player is a
complete idiot and brings out tons of vamps and leaves themselves on
incredibly low pool - which, I admit, happens. Still, after realising
this deck is going to be rushing at you consistently at the start, I'd
make damn sure I'm prepared for it before bringing out any vamps in
the finals. It seems very unlikely that I won't know what that deck
does by that stage if it had been in three games before that.
Also, there was an imbued deck floating around which would've given it
tremendous problems - dragonbound would've been useless, and the
imbued would've kept bouncing back out and slowly knocking the rock
cats down, plus having an easy time blocking any more coming out (with
so little stealth in the deck). So my vote is more luck going in
favour of this deck than anything else.
It reminds me of the one time a player came down here from a nearby
city with 2 very powerful trick decks. After he played them and took
the table, I smirked and said they were nice decks, but neither would
last past it's first game here, cos once everyone saw them being
played, and figured out how they worked, they wouldn't get going
again.
He disagreed - I smiled. Needless to say, the next time he played the
same group with the same decks, he got completely pommeled into the
ground - and it wasn't revenge (no table gang-up or anything), just
the moving parts of the deck were too apparant for the second time
round, and once one or two essential cogs were stopped, the whole deck
fell apart. (In context - one of the decks was a multi-rush star-deck,
and the other relied on getting vote-lock).
Plus, I'd really love to see these Rock Cats go toe-to-toe with the
Warghouls or the Shambling Hordes that were apparantly lurking around
in this tournament. Something tells me the Rock Cats would lose out -
and at their tremendous cost, so would the player.
So, I'm putting the win down to either an incredible amount of luck
and table stupidity (which I find more likely) or a stroke of genius
in playing the table.
Salem wrote:
> Peter D Bakija wrote:
>>>> Retainer (1)
>>> 1x D'habi Revenant>>
>> Good.>> ....but only for the burn option.>
> "The Baali with this retainer gets +1 bleed."
>
> I thought Mata only counted as a Baali for playing the card and any
> lingering duration effects, but not for 'minion with this card...' type
> effects?
Correct.
On Jan 2, 12:19 pm, The Name Forgotten <tex...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Jan 2, 5:45 am, sule...@aol.com wrote:
[...]
>
> Also, there was an imbued deck floating around which would've given it
> tremendous problems - dragonbound would've been useless, and the
> imbued would've kept bouncing back out and slowly knocking the rock
> cats down, plus having an easy time blocking any more coming out (with
> so little stealth in the deck). So my vote is more luck going in
> favour of this deck than anything else.
The guy playing the imbued deck wrote in the Spanish forum that he had
no chance:
"llevé imbuidos y me cazó en la primera mesa... no pude ni moverme...
ni siquiera me dejó jugar a hacerle el trabajo sucio aunque le
ofreciera hacerlo gratis..."
Translation: "I was playing imbued and was his prey in the first
game... I could not even move... He did not even let me help him out,
even though I offered my help for free".
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Jan 2, 1:33 pm, Damnans <damnansv...@ono.com> wrote:
> On Jan 2, 12:19 pm, The Name Forgotten <tex...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 2, 5:45 am, sule...@aol.com wrote:
> [...]
>
> > Also, there was an imbued deck floating around which would've given it
> > tremendous problems - dragonbound would've been useless, and the
> > imbued would've kept bouncing back out and slowly knocking the rock
> > cats down, plus having an easy time blocking any more coming out (with
> > so little stealth in the deck). So my vote is more luck going in
> > favour of this deck than anything else.
>
> The guy playing the imbued deck wrote in the Spanish forum that he had
> no chance:
>
> "llevé imbuidos y me cazó en la primera mesa... no pude ni moverme...
> ni siquiera me dejó jugar a hacerle el trabajo sucio aunque le
> ofreciera hacerlo gratis..."
>
> Translation: "I was playing imbued and was his prey in the first
> game... I could not even move... He did not even let me help him out,
> even though I offered my help for free".
>
> --
> Damnans
Sure, as it's first prey it might have problems. Afterall, it'll take
the Imbued a few turns to prepare for such an onslaught. After that
though, I figured they'd just proceed to wipe each other out slowly.
It was clever of the winner to not give the Imbued an inch though.
The deck is really SLOW but effective and hard to kill once the game
goes long as it first rushes backwards to get rid of the preasure and
the starts rolling forward. The final was something like this,
Aus Weenie (3 caps) with Justine and tons of equipment --- Rock Cats
--- !Malk Bleed Stealth --- Palla Grande --- Giovanni Bleed
The rock cats deck started 2nd and brought out 2 tupdogs. The Aus
weenie wasn't able to block the 2 rock cats that followed next turn
and was forced to deal on no blocking any more rock cats as he would
be rushed backwards. The malk had Kite that was crushed and dind't
influence more. The palla Grande eventually managed to kill the Gio.
After lots of time the game was, Rock Cats with Mata, Shawne & the
oblin for bleeding, 4-5 Rock Cats, Vagabond, tons of pool (as every
other player except the malk) and unmasking. The malk with kite and
other vamp in torpor at 6 pool. Palla Grande with tons of minion and
pool. Aus weenie with 3-4 3 caps and Justine with some equipment to
block the embraces and weenies. The rock Cats took out Dragonbound,
killed the Malk and crushed the palla grande deck in 2-3 turns as it
took nearly 10 pool lose each turn for the dragonbound. With just 2
players remaining mata hari cast Mark of the Dammed after some rushes
with the library empy and waste management online. I don't remember if
time was called before the aus weenie was ousted but the Rock Cats
deck won the tournament.
All the answers you need to play this deck are the rock cats. If
someone is against you torporize him to dead ;-)
I´ll translate a bit more of the topic you guys posted before, only
when it mentions the rock cat deck
First table: Giovanni Bleed+shamblings> Me (playing !Malks with
combat) > Rock Cats > Imbued > Setites
All the table is amazed when the rock cat player (at that time nobody
knew the deck) brings a first turn Jake Washington, he recrutis a
vagabond mystic, then 3 tupdogs. Nobody knew what to thinkg, but well
we continue. I get my first vampire, Dolphin Black, and the rock cat
player says "oh, a bleeder" and plays a pentex on Dolphin. My prey
gets 3 rock cats, and I see my future pretty black. Besides, the
imbued player seeing as he is dead, saves his skin by renegotiating a
memories of mortalities on dolphin, in exchange for peace. I got the
memories but the imbued died anyway. I contest the Pentex, try to
bleed, and Dolphin gets knocked down. I state to the rock cat playe I
´m no bleed deck, so he leaves me alone. From there everything slowed
down, rock cat player bleeding for 2 per turn, and getting more
minions and getting pool via Autarkis. Imbued player is destroyed in
all senses, setites bleed but cannot oust the giovanni. Giovanni
player cannot oust me and me clinging to the table barely.
finally, the giovanni ousted me, the rock cats ousted the imbued and
the seittes.
Rock cats: 2.5 VP, Giovannis 1.5 VP
> The rock cats deck started 2nd and brought out 2 tupdogs. The Aus
> weenie wasn't able to block the 2 rock cats that followed next turn
> and was forced to deal on no blocking any more rock cats as he would
> be rushed backwards.
This more or less explains how this deck was able to win the final
table. This guy's predator made a patently stupid deal along the lines
of "don't backrush me and I'll never ever try to win". It's not hard
to see why dealing like that is a bad plan, yet people still seem to
love doing it.
"CthuluKitty" <vtana...@riseup.net> wrote in message
news:86bf4332-ea15-419c...@e50g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I guess the deal works only if you plan on breaking it at a critical
moment as his predator. The hope would be that the Rock Cats wear
themselves out rushing forward eventually running himself down on pool
and checking the numbers every turn to see if an oust is possible.
It really depends on the Rock Cats' prey's deck. If it's combaty,
you might have some hope with that approach. If it's squishy, oh well.
Either way, it might sound better than just taking the Rock Cat rushes
if you'll just wind up dying horribly. (It also depends on your
attitude about 'taking one for the team', I suppose.)
Fred
On Jan 1, 10:45 pm, sule...@aol.com wrote:
> There are many more situations where first turn x3 Tupdog, second turn
> x3 Rock Cat is a problem than just when playing zero combat defense
> and tiny vampires.
Ok. So what this deck comes down to is getting out 3 or 4 Rock Cats
quickly before anyone can block them or is set up, and then the 3 or 4
Rock Cats killing everyone at the table. And the rest of the deck is
mostly just window dressing. That at least makes more sense. I'm not
seeing that it is going to be that effective most of the time, but ok.
If I were building a deck to really win off the Rock Cats, I'd have
more potence combat for the Rock Cat to use (Immortal Grapples and
Sewer Lids/Stunt Bikes for when folks run to long).
> S:CE is likely to run out against three rushes a turn, nevermind IG.
> Fortitude is in a lot more trouble due to the Cat's press. How many
> decks just beat Rock Cat in combat?
Plenty from my experience, but different play groups certainly are
going to have different experiences. Celerity/Guns (even sideline
Celerity/Guns) are going to kill the Rock Cats dead. Mid cap potence.
Fortitude with hitback (Weighted Walking Sticks?). Shambling Hordes.
Pretty much any reasonably common combat offense/defense will likely
make this deck not work real well.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija a écrit :
> On Dec 31, 6:41 am, i_reden...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>Number of players: 21
>>
>>Deck Name: Me pareció ver un lindo gatito
>>Created By: Miguel del Valle>
>> Like, again, I'm in no way trying to be mean here--this deck clearly
> looks like it is doing something really clever (if really obscure).
> And it won a tournament, so clearly it worked against a presumably
> average field of decks. But still. I'm totally not seeing at all what
> it is doing to do something other than maybe get out a bunch of
> allies, call Autarkis Persecution, gain a bunch of pool, give a bunch
> of pool to everyone else, beat some folks up with Rock Cats (assuming
> they have no combat defense whatsoever) and then eventually get Mata
> Hari out and see her get killed for being Red List
come on, the guy made a deck, he brought it to the finals and then won.
You can't believe it, yes, but your life will not be changed forever by
this simple fact, so why the urge to post like 6 times in a row about it
? -_-
Peter D Bakija a écrit :
>
> Yeah, see, that is what I'm figuring is actually going on here--there is
> some minor text understanding error somewhere that makes a huge
> difference in the running of the deck.>
> Peter D Bakija
> pd...@lightlink.com
> http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
>
> "Find hungry samurai."
> -The Old Man
It's an ally deck.
Allies are recruted on first turn by tupdogs.
allies act, block, rush. (unmasking, arson etc...)
Allies are in great number at the table. The reason is : allies can
recruit more allies, tupdogs do the recruitment also, and your predator
does not bother you because he won't influence much since you have
rushing allies. If he influences, memories of mortality takes care of
the problem.
Tupdog calls autarkis, and you benefit more than any other players since
you have lots of minion. Opponents have few minions. The reason is :
fear of allies, fear of dragonbound, unmasking to catch governs and stuff.
If you ruin your predator to stay afloat, then you have a new, stronger
predator, but he dies because of Mark of the damned : essentialy you may
give 2 VP away and still win.
That's how simple the mechanics is... :)
The Name Forgotten a écrit :
> Also, there was an imbued deck floating around which would've given it
> tremendous problems - dragonbound would've been useless, and the
> imbued would've kept bouncing back out and slowly knocking the rock
> cats down
you mean, if the deck had neither vagabond mystic or 3 str with a
inbuilt press rock cats ? yeah yeah yeah :)
> plus having an easy time blocking any more coming out (with
> so little stealth in the deck).
Skin of the chameleon = recruit @ 3 stealth ...
> So my vote is more luck going in
> favour of this deck than anything else.
yes, it's a well known fact that players from places other than your
hometown are just noobs ;)
Peter D Bakija a écrit :
> Plenty from my experience, but different play groups certainly are> going to have different experiences. Celerity/Guns (even sideline
> Celerity/Guns) are going to kill the Rock Cats dead. Mid cap potence.
> Fortitude with hitback (Weighted Walking Sticks?). Shambling Hordes.
> Pretty much any reasonably common combat offense/defense will likely
> make this deck not work real well.
Celerity gun ? Memories of mortality. Direct intervention on the
concealed weapon.
Mid cap potence ? Memorirs of mortality. And the smaller guys won't even
strike against a rock cat. You can't taste or play disarm either => hand
jam...
Fortitude with hit back ? You'd better have the stick ready first hand.
And that does not kill the cat right away.
Shambling horde ? rush the recruiting vampires.
ther is always a solution ready : the guy who built the deck must be
damn good :)
In message <477bc539$0$31203$79c1...@nan-newsreader-07.noos.net>, reyda
<true_...@hotmail.com> writes:
>Peter D Bakija a écrit :>> Like, again, I'm in no way trying to be mean here--this deck
>>clearly
>> looks like it is doing something really clever (if really obscure).
>> And it won a tournament, so clearly it worked against a presumably
>> average field of decks. But still. I'm totally not seeing at all what
>> it is doing to do something other than maybe get out a bunch of
>> allies, call Autarkis Persecution, gain a bunch of pool, give a bunch
>> of pool to everyone else, beat some folks up with Rock Cats (assuming
>> they have no combat defense whatsoever) and then eventually get Mata
>> Hari out and see her get killed for being Red List>
>come on, the guy made a deck, he brought it to the finals and then won.
>You can't believe it, yes, but your life will not be changed forever by
>this simple fact, so why the urge to post like 6 times in a row about
>it ? -_-
But his playing skill could be changed by learning how other groups
work, and other play dynamics work. So finding out how a particular
deck works and why is fun. It can also provide a lot of interest to
people who might travel to that area, or who might be wondering what
sort of tech comes out of a given area when thinking about travelling to
a continental qualifier.
I can't remember seeing a successful Rock Cat / Tupdog ally deck posted
to the group before, so picking it apart to try to learn how to make
better decks is a good thing.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
On Jan 2, 12:07 pm, reyda <true_re...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> come on, the guy made a deck, he brought it to the finals and then won.
> You can't believe it, yes, but your life will not be changed forever by
> this simple fact, so why the urge to post like 6 times in a row about it
Dude. What are you even talking about? It is an interesting
discussion.
At first I was totally confused by what the deck did. Now I'm no
longer confused, and trying to figure out how it does what it does.
Why do you care how many times I post about something?
-Peter
On Jan 2, 12:29 pm, reyda <true_re...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Celerity gun ? Memories of mortality. Direct intervention on the
> concealed weapon.
On a whole crypt of vampires? There are only 3 Memores and 1 DI.
> Mid cap potence ? Memorirs of mortality. And the smaller guys won't even
> strike against a rock cat. You can't taste or play disarm either => hand
> jam...
Yeah, if everything falls your way, sure, it might work. But on paper,
it looks fragile.
-Peter
In article <477bc6bd$0$26378$79c1...@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net>,
reyda <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It's an ally deck.
> Allies are recruted on first turn by tupdogs.
Yes. This is now apparent. Which was deduced through, ya know,
discussion.
So in the end, the deck is:
"I get out as many Tupdogs as I can on the first turn. On the second
turn, I get out as many Rock Cats as I can. Repeat as needed. Beat up
everyone at the table."
The rest of the cards are kind of filler. And burn option jank. Check.
At first glance, this is not readily apparent. And second glance too.
So now that we have got to the crux of the issue (that the deck is
basically "get out a lot of Rock Cats and kill people"), we can then
move on to discuss the merits of such a plan. Which, in an appropriate
environment, could probably do pretty well. But also might just end up
making your grand prey sweep the table. But that is a flaw for all Rush
decks.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <477b357f$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>,
Salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I assume Mylan is there either for his bleed (which is fairly cheap),
> and/or blocking other people's allies attacking your guys? Since he
> can't untap Mata....
I suspect that is the case. I also suspect that Mata Hari is really only
an opportunistic sideline for the deck--she might come out if you are
doing well, but if she never sees play, the deck still can probably do
what it is going to do if it can do anything (i.e. it is either winning
or shutdown regardless of Mata Hari showing up ever)
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article
<fa72991f-da9a-4d6e...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
The Name Forgotten <tex...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> So, I'm putting the win down to either an incredible amount of luck
> and table stupidity (which I find more likely) or a stroke of genius
> in playing the table.
Now that I am no longer blinded by the 40+ cards in the deck that aren't
really important, I can see how, in the right environment, such a deck
could do ok. You spend, like, 3 or 4 pool on vampires, 12-16 pool on
Rock Cats, and rush-rush-rush. And if you aren't facing any other
significant combat or combat defense, the Rock Cats eat your lunch.
If only I could see such an environment. Instead, I keep playing in
environments where 2 out of 3 preliminary rounds, my opponents play
Carrion Crows at superior, maneuver to long, and hit me with Sewer
Lids...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Peter D Bakija wrote:
> In article
> <fa72991f-da9a-4d6e...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> The Name Forgotten <tex...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>> So, I'm putting the win down to either an incredible amount of luck
>> and table stupidity (which I find more likely) or a stroke of genius
>> in playing the table.>
> Now that I am no longer blinded by the 40+ cards in the deck that aren't
> really important, I can see how, in the right environment, such a deck
> could do ok. You spend, like, 3 or 4 pool on vampires, 12-16 pool on
> Rock Cats, and rush-rush-rush. And if you aren't facing any other
> significant combat or combat defense, the Rock Cats eat your lunch.
>
> If only I could see such an environment. Instead, I keep playing in
> environments where 2 out of 3 preliminary rounds, my opponents play
> Carrion Crows at superior, maneuver to long, and hit me with Sewer
> Lids...
>
And whose fault is that, oh master of the Nosferatu newsletter?
best -
chris
--
Super Fun Cards
http://stores.ebay.com/superfuncards/
auct...@superfuncards.com
Heh. Among others, my fault!
We are fighty beyond all reason; we played at least one game on New
Year's Eve where everyone had a deck with a significant combat
component. I was floored when I went to Origins last year and saw
people play decks with little or no combat defense. Unfortunately,
that did not prevent my rush deck from sucking big time. . . .
I only interject this to put Peter's comments in context. I was
thoroughly befuddled and intrigued by the TWD on this thread for
pretty much the same reasons as Peter, being from the same playgroup
and all. I can see all kinds of ways for this to go wrong, yet it did
its job and won. It makes somewhat more sense now that it has been
picked at and the idea behind it explicated, although I still can't
figure out how the cats don't get worn down after a couple of
combats. It seems to depend a lot on Waste Management and MoM
cycling. With MoM now banned, it seems that it would be a much less
effective deck. . . .
Heh, and I wonder how adding a few Frontal Assaults might improve its
work?
Cheers,
John
On Jan 2, 6:10 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
> And whose fault is that, oh master of the Nosferatu newsletter?
>
> best -
>
> chris
>
> --
> Super Fun Cardshttp://stores.ebay.com/superfuncards/> aucti...@superfuncards.com
In article <rRUej.2$DR...@newsfe07.phx>,
librarian <auct...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
> And whose fault is that, oh master of the Nosferatu newsletter?
Man. Spend all the time convincing folks that combat is worth playing
and ya know what it got me? Killed by combat...
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article
<a42abd98-52e9-442d...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
demonturtle <cranky...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I only interject this to put Peter's comments in context.
Oh, I'm not even talking about playing locally. I'm talking about out of
town tournaments--that Carrion Crows/Sewer Lid comment was about the NYC
Qualifier this last year. It was crazy.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Peter D Bakija wrote:
> In article <477b357f$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>,
> Salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> I assume Mylan is there either for his bleed (which is fairly cheap),
>> and/or blocking other people's allies attacking your guys? Since he
>> can't untap Mata....>
> I suspect that is the case. I also suspect that Mata Hari is really only
> an opportunistic sideline for the deck--she might come out if you are
> doing well, but if she never sees play, the deck still can probably do
> what it is going to do if it can do anything (i.e. it is either winning
> or shutdown regardless of Mata Hari showing up ever)
Bleeding for 1 with Mylan, and not being able to play Waste Management
(unless you got Shawndra) might reduce the deck's legs somewhat.
I'm also hoping they weren't playing that Mata counted as a !Trem to
allow the Tupdogs to bleed.... that would be awfully unfortunate. but I
can believe ousting through Dragonbound could maybe work...so hopefully not!
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> Now that I am no longer blinded by the 40+ cards in the deck that
> aren't really important, I can see how, in the right environment,
> such a deck could do ok. You spend, like, 3 or 4 pool on vampires,
> 12-16 pool on Rock Cats, and rush-rush-rush. And if you aren't facing
> any other significant combat or combat defense, the Rock Cats eat
> your lunch.
>
> If only I could see such an environment. Instead, I keep playing in
> environments where 2 out of 3 preliminary rounds, my opponents play
> Carrion Crows at superior, maneuver to long, and hit me with Sewer
> Lids...
Peter, how is it that you haven't metagamed that environment yet, and
started winning all the tournaments? Win, damnit! Win! Win! Win! =)
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
On 3 ene, 04:26, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Ok guys, being the Spanish that I am, I'm going to try to translate to
all of you a very clever comment from a spanish player who usually
plays tournaments with the tournament winner, about how the deck
works.
Please excuse any translation errors I make.
"The key to this deck is that it is a very "political" deck. As it is
has been said, in the first turn you may put into play 2, 3 or even 4
Tupdogs, which means that with a bit of luck you may even put 4 Rock
Cats into play second turn, so in the third turn, when most decks have
just put into play their first vampire, you already have 4 Rock Cats
to go fighting with. It's true that 4 Rock Cats plus 4 Tupdogs means
spending 20 pool in just three turns, so you have to start playing
Autarkis Persecution in the Third turn, meaning the first thing you
have to do is depleting the votes from table, so the first Rock Cats
rushes voter vampires, even crosstable, or you make a deal with any
player with votes you can have a dealing opportunity with, in exchange
for not sending your "little cats" against them. You have to note that
that third turn Autarkis will likely give you around 6 or 7 pool, most
times even more since it is rare that Jake washington, some Vagabond,
Mylan, Carlton, Gregory or Ossian (remember that the Rock Cats can
recruit them too) will not have appeared in the table yet.
In a middle game situation Mata Hari and Shawnda help you win Autarkis
by means of their votes. The key is always have the political control
of the table, torporicing voter vampires at will or making deals.
The primordial function of the Bloodstorm, Concert Tour, D'habi is
their burn option, which makes the deck efectively have less than 60
cards, which translates in that it's rare that you don't have a Rock
Cat, Autarkis, ... in your hand when you need them, and in case of
need thay are perfectly playable by Mata herself. Zoning board / Arson
get rid of these pesky Secure Havens in voter vampires and Mark of the
Damned is simply espectacular in a long game. Waste Management lets
you pick cards "at will" once the deck is depleted, which should be
quick (maybe I need a Rock Cat, maybe an Autarkis, maybe a Direct
Intervention...)
You have to try the deck, it's spectacular. Most people are surprised
by you putting 4 Rock cats into play on the Third turn. In combat
heavy enviroments the deck suffers, but against voters, bleeders or
even toolboxes and intercept, the deck goes really well"
In my personal view, I must say I just played against this deck once
and it was a table it didn't won, mostly because as it has been said,
there was a CelGuns deck playing, and that deck is mostly the bane of
this. What does the player do in these situiation? makes a losing deal
with the Cel/Guns player.
[ quoted text not captured ]
ok, to be honnest from the first time you spoke about the deck, you
were like "this thing is crap and cannot win". But it won nonetheless.
So I was pretty sure this would degenerate into the "european guys
can't play" thing we've seen before ...
but ok, your interest was genuine (barring the "when i play this
everyone will be carrion/ sewer lids" stuff) so let me drop my
apprehensions on this, pal :)
On 2 jan, 21:43, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> (...) But also might just end up> making your grand prey sweep the table.
just scroll up and read the second part of my incredibly complex post
^^
I am surprised the deck has won, the reason why I say that is merely
because the killing cards are too few and just one sudden reversal or
one not to be could ruin all your efforts.
also, it could be very sensible to time limit because you give pool to
the other metuselahs all way long
that being said, if the other people are not expecting that you cross
rush, you're probably also never die, because you will be able to kill
all your predators and preys minions, then your cross table buddy
minions, without being too much pressured.
surprise was the key element: well done. very interesting deck... even
if I cannot understand why there are no 3 dragonbounds in it to start
making damages as soon as possible
On Jan 3, 6:02 am, "Reyda !" <Rey...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ok, to be honnest from the first time you spoke about the deck, you
> were like "this thing is crap and cannot win".
Umm, no, no I was not. Please find and quote me saying anything like
this. My first post on the subject said:
"Is there something important I'm missing? I mean, clearly, there is
something very clever about this deck. I just can't see what it is."
followed by me saying in a later post:
"Like, again, I'm in no way trying to be mean here--this deck clearly
looks like it is doing something really clever (if really obscure).
And it won a tournament, so clearly it worked against a presumably
average field of decks. But still. I'm totally not seeing at all what
it is doing to do something other than maybe get out a bunch of
allies, call Autarkis Persecution, gain a bunch of pool, give a bunch
of pool to everyone else, beat some folks up with Rock Cats (assuming
they have no combat defense whatsoever) and then eventually get Mata
Hari out and see her get killed for being Red List."
None of which translates as "this deck is crap and cannot win". It
translates as "I don't understand what this deck does". Sure. There
were jokes a plenty about Mark of Damnation (which, as it turns out,
it probably a pretty good finisher in this deck). And a lot of "I
don't really understand...". But no one anywhere, especially not me,
ever said "this deck is crap and cannot win".
> So I was pretty sure this would degenerate into the "european guys
> can't play" thing we've seen before ...
Umm, I have never been involved in such a discussion. So while you
might like to envision this sort of thing, it isn't coming from me.
> but ok, your interest was genuine (barring the "when i play this
> everyone will be carrion/ sewer lids" stuff)
Why barring that? What are you talking about? When I play decks like
this, everyone *does* play Carrion Crows/Sewer Lids. That wasn't me
making fun of anything. That was me expressing the belief that decks
like this, in my experience, run into trouble a lot. Due to me
apparently seeing more combat than one would generally expect to see.
Yes. This thread was very jokey. And contained dreaded sarcasm. But
not 'cause anyone was trying to denigrate the deck or player therof.
Just mostly 'cause the deck looked very confusing and was difficult to
figure out. In the end, it turns out the deck is "get out 3 or 4 Rock
Cats by T3", which in the right environment, seems like it could do
ok.
-Peter
On Jan 2, 7:22 pm, reyda <true_re...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The Name Forgotten a écrit :
>
> > Also, there was an imbued deck floating around which would've given it
> > tremendous problems - dragonbound would've been useless, and the
> > imbued would've kept bouncing back out and slowly knocking the rock
> > cats down
>
> you mean, if the deck had neither vagabond mystic or 3 str with a
> inbuilt press rock cats ? yeah yeah yeah :)
Ok, the vagabond mystic would help a little. Admittedly, I'm also more
used to the gun-totting imbued deck styles, which would've given it a
bit more grief. Maybe the Imbued deck there was playing something else
for their combat module... flash grenades or some-such.
> > plus having an easy time blocking any more coming out (with
> > so little stealth in the deck).
>
> Skin of the chameleon = recruit @ 3 stealth ...
Yeah, the skins will help, but there was hardly oodles of it in the
deck, and unmasking would certainly not be your friend in that one.
Just one extra sport bike or media location etc. and then it's over.
> > So my vote is more luck going in
> > favour of this deck than anything else.
>
> yes, it's a well known fact that players from places other than your
> hometown are just noobs ;)
Yes, because it's also a well known fact that luck never factors into
a game ;)
My point is that it probably ended up in good seating positions and
against really favourable decks - which I assume to be luck. It's
possible that the winner predicted there would be poor/no combat decks
floating around, and few votes to boot, but I'm just giving an opinion
here, not fact, and have never claimed to do otherwise. I've never
said it was impossible to win with this deck using skill, and
certainly made no mention of players experience. Even the best of us
are capable of making stupid deals that we later regret, or misreading
a deck's power until it's too late.
So you can get off your high horse now.
That being said, we have a large amount of noobs in my hometown of
Cape Town anyway.
On Jan 3, 5:26 am, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
> Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
>
> > Now that I am no longer blinded by the 40+ cards in the deck that
> > aren't really important, I can see how, in the right environment,
> > such a deck could do ok. You spend, like, 3 or 4 pool on vampires,
> > 12-16 pool on Rock Cats, and rush-rush-rush. And if you aren't facing
> > any other significant combat or combat defense, the Rock Cats eat
> > your lunch.
>
> > If only I could see such an environment. Instead, I keep playing in
> > environments where 2 out of 3 preliminary rounds, my opponents play
> > Carrion Crows at superior, maneuver to long, and hit me with Sewer
> > Lids...
>
> Peter, how is it that you haven't metagamed that environment yet, and
> started winning all the tournaments? Win, damnit! Win! Win! Win! =)
>
Yeah, I admit that we face a fair whack of strong combat modules here
as well. Celerity and potence or guns is pretty common. Good thaum
combat would be a killer (also pretty common), animalism is pretty
often lurking around. Heck, with 4 clans having animalism and
fortitude in common, you'd think one would make an appearance and stop
a deck like this. I remember the last storyline tournament we had,
there were 3 !nossie combat decks running around.
The general weakness around here is that we don't have too many
intercept decks floating around or too many vote decks - occasionally,
you might get lucky and get away with things you shouldn't.
The Name Forgotten schrieb:
[ quoted text not captured ]
I don´t know. You need to have all the cards basically in your starting
hand because 3-4 rock cats will be coming after your first vampire. Even
with the combatty decks I have, I can see that there can be a problem.
--
Johannes Walch
I don't see why those decks would be killer.
If you manage to have 3/4 rock cats against one vampire, then even if
you lose 1 rock cat during first combat '(don't forget rock cats can
counter press and have 4 lifes, so it is not that easy to get rid of
them). same for guns... if you're facing a cel/gun deck, well it is
not obvious that your opponent will have the combo in his starting
hand... at worse memories are here for this, right....
If you have animalism, you're likely not to have more than 1 carrion
crows in your starting hand + rock cat is not killed by aid from bats
+ carrion crows...
In article <DEYej.27655$yV5....@newsfe15.phx>,
"Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
> Peter, how is it that you haven't metagamed that environment yet, and
> started winning all the tournaments? Win, damnit! Win! Win! Win! =)
I have a long history of failing to metagame well. Back when Duffin
played here, he had the ability to randomly always choose the exact
right deck for a table. I, on the other hand, continue to always pick
Rock. And then get tooled by Paper. Over and over again. Stupid Paper...
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Jan 3, 5:07 pm, Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote:
>
> I don´t know. You need to have all the cards basically in your starting
> hand because 3-4 rock cats will be coming after your first vampire. Even
> with the combatty decks I have, I can see that there can be a problem.
>
> --
> Johannes Walch
Why do you (and some others) insist on treating this as a 1-on-1 game?
Essentially there would be 3 other players (prey, grandprey, and
predator) who would very quickly get involved in this if such a deck
were getting out of hand. Sure, it makes a quick start, but I imagine
in normal table situations it would run out of steam very quickly.
Sure it would get a quick VP, but that won't win you the game and
probably not the final table either (altho it might if time is short).
To me, this deck seems to be just about the same as bringing weenie
dominate to the table. Sure, you'll probably get your first VP quickly
enough, but I can't see how it can hold up after that unless it was in
an ideal metagame, or people didn't clamp down on the obvious table
threat (which is what I meant by playing stupidly especially after
seeing it around for 3 games prior to the finals).
Heck, if anyone anywhere on the table had a decent set of manuevers
and a .44, this deck would have serious trouble. Even things like
arson for the Waste Management Operation, or some cross-table
shamblers/ war ghouls, or a Tension in the Ranks, or a well-timed wash
etc. would be expected to give this deck a great amount of problems.
My point is that there are too many weak chains in this deck, and I'm
just surprised that it got so far without falling apart, a feat I put
down to the metagame.
If the winner called it, then there was a tremendous amount of skill
involved in picking this deck. More likely IMO is that it was pure
luck that he didn't get terrible seating and/or unfavourable decks
that could utilize his weaknesses (plus he got decent draws -
Dragonbound or Waste Management Operation at the bottom of his deck
might have caused problems). I wonder how many people could put this
deck together, go to their next tournament, and win with this deck as
it stands (banned cards aside).
The Name Forgotten wrote:
> On Jan 2, 7:22 pm, reyda <true_re...@hotmail.com> wrote:>> The Name Forgotten a écrit :>> > plus having an easy time blocking any more coming out (with>> > so little stealth in the deck).
>>
>> Skin of the chameleon = recruit @ 3 stealth ...>
> Yeah, the skins will help, but there was hardly oodles of it in the
> deck, and unmasking would certainly not be your friend in that one.
> Just one extra sport bike or media location etc. and then it's over.
The Unmasking only give allies intercept when blocking Vampires. It will
have no effect at all while your Rock Cats are acting.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Dec 31 2007, 8:18 am, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> i_reden...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Crypt [(17 vampires, average capacity: 2)
> > ------------------------------------------
> > 2x Mata Hari CHI OBF aus for qui 7 Ravnos:4 2 votes
> > 1x Shawnda Dorrit CEL obt pot pre 6 Brujah antitribu:4 priscus
> > 14x Tupdog POT VIS 1 Gargoyle:3
>
> I'm deeply confused by this deck. What does it do? And how does it do it?
I was really confused about the deck, too. I'm playing a JOL game
against something very similar, and I now have a much better
understanding of why it's strong. Basically, Rock Cat rush is good in
many cases. 6 damage in 1 combat is hard to deal with for many decks.
If you want to look at the game so far (which is just a 3 player game,
but it's still illuminating), you can go here:
http://deckserver.net/jol3/Quick44
By turn 7, the deck had recruited 3 rock cats, played 8 tupdogs,
passed 2 autarkis, and torped two of his prey's minions. Of course,
the deck I'm playing against is tweaked to include things like Narrow
Minds, Ventrue HQ, Glancing Blow, Vagabond Mystic, and who knows what
else I haven't seen yet. But the idea is the same, and it generally
works.
Ira
On 3 jan, 23:49, The Name Forgotten <tex...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Jan 3, 5:07 pm, Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I don´t know. You need to have all the cards basically in your starting
> > hand because 3-4 rock cats will be coming after your first vampire. Even
> > with the combatty decks I have, I can see that there can be a problem.
>
> > --
> > Johannes Walch
>> Sure it would get a quick VP, but that won't win you the game and> probably not the final table either (altho it might if time is short).
this assumption proves that you fail to understand how to play this
deck.
You will get your VP very late but when you get one VP then you're
most likely to get all VP's consequently.
On Jan 4, 6:04 am, oriangiss...@aliceadsl.fr wrote:
> this assumption proves that you fail to understand how to play this
> deck.
> You will get your VP very late but when you get one VP then you're
> most likely to get all VP's consequently.
It is this sort of difficult table balancing that, if truly necessary,
that makes decks like this really prone to not working when they don't
work. The need to go upstream, the need to go cross table, the plan on
not ousting your prey quickly--all of these *can* add up to a win once
and a while, but more often than not, they add up to making someone
else win. Again, clearly, the deck *can* win, as it did. But it isn't
at all unreasonable to expect that folks will view the deck is
difficult and fragile.
-Peter
The Name Forgotten schrieb:
> On Jan 3, 5:07 pm, Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote:
>>> I don愒 know. You need to have all the cards basically in your starting>> hand because 3-4 rock cats will be coming after your first vampire. Even
>> with the combatty decks I have, I can see that there can be a problem.
>>
>> --
>> Johannes Walch>
> Why do you (and some others) insist on treating this as a 1-on-1 game?
> Essentially there would be 3 other players (prey, grandprey, and
> predator) who would very quickly get involved in this if such a deck
> were getting out of hand.
In most of the games I played the table should have been looking out
after some deck, but everybody was more concerened about their own
issues and didn愒.
> Sure, it makes a quick start, but I imagine
> in normal table situations it would run out of steam very quickly.
> Sure it would get a quick VP, but that won't win you the game and
> probably not the final table either (altho it might if time is short).
Not really. This deck won愒 make a quick VP. It will build up and try to
balance the table, perhaps crush his predator if he cannot be cowed.
> To me, this deck seems to be just about the same as bringing weenie
> dominate to the table. Sure, you'll probably get your first VP quickly
> enough, but I can't see how it can hold up after that unless it was in
> an ideal metagame, or people didn't clamp down on the obvious table
> threat (which is what I meant by playing stupidly especially after
> seeing it around for 3 games prior to the finals).
It愀 fundamentally different. If you take peoples pool they always have
a chance to recover, even with big minions. Minion Tap, Voter Cap we
know how it works. But when you take their vamps, they have no
possibility to act and that makes recovering quite difficult.
> Heck, if anyone anywhere on the table had a decent set of manuevers
> and a .44, this deck would have serious trouble. Even things like
> arson for the Waste Management Operation, or some cross-table
> shamblers/ war ghouls, or a Tension in the Ranks, or a well-timed wash
> etc. would be expected to give this deck a great amount of problems.
> My point is that there are too many weak chains in this deck, and I'm
> just surprised that it got so far without falling apart, a feat I put
> down to the metagame.
Of course there can be found numerous situations where this deck will
fail. But the possbility to act quickly gives this deck the advantage of
the initiative when it comes to deal with those situations. A lot of
players can be bullied into submission by acting quick and harsh.
> If the winner called it, then there was a tremendous amount of skill
> involved in picking this deck. More likely IMO is that it was pure
> luck that he didn't get terrible seating and/or unfavourable decks
> that could utilize his weaknesses (plus he got decent draws -
> Dragonbound or Waste Management Operation at the bottom of his deck
> might have caused problems).
There is always quite some luck involved in seating and picking deck
unless you go for something near-broken (e.g the old Imbued).
> I wonder how many people could put this
> deck together, go to their next tournament, and win with this deck as
> it stands (banned cards aside).
A few. Copying decks from the TWDA has only rarely led to tournament
wins for me ;-) The situation is always different.
--
Johannes Walch
Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> "Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote:>> Peter, how is it that you haven't metagamed that environment yet, and
>> started winning all the tournaments? Win, damnit! Win! Win! Win!
>> =)>
> I have a long history of failing to metagame well. Back when Duffin
> played here, he had the ability to randomly always choose the exact
> right deck for a table. I, on the other hand, continue to always pick
> Rock. And then get tooled by Paper. Over and over again. Stupid
> Paper...
You should then choose decks based on what you absolutely feel will NOT do
well that day. =)
[ quoted text not captured ]
[ quoted text not captured ]
Thanks. The point I was trying to make is that you would nullify your
prey pretty quickly. Even with this mistake, it still doesn't debunk
my argument though. Perhaps my judgement comes from our playgroup
here, but generally, a deck like this, that pulls out hordes of
minions, will get a whole lot of table hate here, especially since the
deck is also doing a whole lot of stuff. The threat appears too
immediate and obvious, even if it was unfounded. That, combined with
the ease at which it can completely and utterly fall apart when the
table does turn against you, is what makes me think the person got
more lucky than anything else.
However, I do think that the deck archetype (Tup Dogs and Rock Cats)
is quite clever, just this particular version of it seems particularly
fragile. For me, I'd definitely include a bit more of the lynch-pin
cards (another Dragonbound for starters) and some fail-safe options
(like IR Goggles and/or maneuvers).
Again, I find it hard to imagine a tournament with 21 players and 3/4
rounds of play that somebody on my table would not have some style of
deck that could completely tear this specific deck apart, and would
consider myself extremely lucky if I didn't face one of these decks.
Although, knowing my luck, I'd probably have one as my prey and
another as my predator in at least one of the rounds.
[ quoted text not captured ]
i also find that in games where it looks like one deck is trying to line
up all the vps, one of the other players, staring into the face of 0 vps
anyway, will transfer themselves out to give one of the other players a
6-pool boost at trying to curb the deck (at least in non-tournaments.
obviously in a tournament you get more TPs if only one person at a table
gets VPs).
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message
news:pdb6-80C5FD.1...@news-server.stny.rr.com...
> So now that we have got to the crux of the issue (that the deck is
> basically "get out a lot of Rock Cats and kill people"), we can then
> move on to discuss the merits of such a plan. Which, in an appropriate
> environment, could probably do pretty well. But also might just end up
> making your grand prey sweep the table. But that is a flaw for all Rush
> decks.
When I see an idea like this, I want to throw in support that will tend
to keep the main piece - in this case Rock Cats - bright shiny and new.
That would tempt me to use Eurayle Gelasia Mylonas with a bunch of Heaven's
Gate, Resurrection, and maybe a few Renewed Vigor cards. (Eurayle could
also untap a Rock Cat from time to time, as well.) I'm just not sure how
to run the bloat you'd need for pool management for a thing like that,
though, as the Autrarkis Persecutions wouldn't be working. Of course,
Renewed Vigor/Minion Tap is great bloat but you'd need another vampire
and I don't think the services of another fatty could be procured to
make that cog work.
Fred