Giotto masks q?

If you attempt to block someone, and Giotto masks at inferior so you are blocking him, must you burn a blood and continue with the block or can you decide not to burn the blood and fail to block at that time? T

[ quoted text not captured ] If he plays the mask before the block is successful, the blocking minion must then either pay a pool or not block him (i.e., he can decide not to burn the blood and fail to block), thanks to the "to" wording on Giotto. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 01:37:23 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote: >> If you attempt to block someone, and Giotto masks at inferior so you >> are blocking him, must you burn a blood and continue with the block or >> can you decide not to burn the blood and fail to block at that time? > >If he plays the mask before the block is successful, How do you determine that? Can Giotto play the mask at inf when the acting minion has not increased his stealth vs the blocker then? [ quoted text not captured ]

Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote: > > On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 01:37:23 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > >Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote: > >> If you attempt to block someone, and Giotto masks at inferior so you > >> are blocking him, must you burn a blood and continue with the block or > >> can you decide not to burn the blood and fail to block at that time? > > > >If he plays the mask before the block is successful, > > How do you determine that? Can Giotto play the mask at inf when the > acting minion has not increased his stealth vs the blocker then? When the acting minion's controller says "I'm blocked" then the block is successful. > >the blocking minion > >must then either pay a pool or not block him (i.e., he can decide not to > >burn the blood and fail to block), thanks to the "to" wording on Giotto. > > [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3D14C119...@white-wolf.com... > Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote: > > > > On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 01:37:23 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > > > >Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote: > > >> If you attempt to block someone, and Giotto masks at inferior so you > > >> are blocking him, must you burn a blood and continue with the block or > > >> can you decide not to burn the blood and fail to block at that time? > > > > > >If he plays the mask before the block is successful, > > > > How do you determine that? Can Giotto play the mask at inf when the > > acting minion has not increased his stealth vs the blocker then? > > When the acting minion's controller says "I'm blocked" then the > block is successful. > Can the acting minion sit there forever and never admit to being blocked? =) /The Emperor

The Emperor wrote: > Can the acting minion sit there forever and never admit to being blocked? =) Sure. Until the judge penalizes him for slow play. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3D13D4D0...@white-wolf.com... > Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote: > > If you attempt to block someone, and Giotto masks at inferior so you > > are blocking him, must you burn a blood and continue with the block or > > can you decide not to burn the blood and fail to block at that time? > > If he plays the mask before the block is successful, the blocking minion > must then either pay a pool or not block him (i.e., he can decide not to > burn the blood and fail to block), thanks to the "to" wording on Giotto. So, can you also, if Giotto is bleeding you, declare that one of your vampires attempts to block, then decide not to burn a blood, and fail to block? (This would be useful with Blessing of Chaos, for example.) If the answer to this is "no", is that because "Vampires must burn a blood to attempt to block Giotto" means that they must burn the blood as soon as they declare the attempt? If that is the case, then why should Mask give the blocking vampire an option? As soon as Mask is played, they are attempting to block Giotto; they therefore must burn a blood. If they are unable to burn the blood it makes sense that they would fail to block, but I don't see anything in the Mask rulings that implies that the burning blood should be optional. Josh muddyfied

Joshua Duffin wrote: > > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > news:3D13D4D0...@white-wolf.com... > > Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote: > > > If you attempt to block someone, and Giotto masks at inferior so you > > > are blocking him, must you burn a blood and continue with the block or > > > can you decide not to burn the blood and fail to block at that time? > > > > If he plays the mask before the block is successful, the blocking minion > > must then either pay a pool or not block him (i.e., he can decide not to > > burn the blood and fail to block), thanks to the "to" wording on Giotto. > > So, can you also, if Giotto is bleeding you, declare that one > of your vampires attempts to block, then decide not to burn > a blood, and fail to block? (This would be useful with Blessing > of Chaos, for example.) No. > If the answer to this is "no", is that because "Vampires must > burn a blood to attempt to block Giotto" means that they must > burn the blood as soon as they declare the attempt? If that No, it means that they must burn a blood to make the attempt. > is the case, then why should Mask give the blocking vampire an > option? As soon as Mask is played, they are attempting to > block Giotto; they therefore must burn a blood. If they are > unable to burn the blood it makes sense that they would fail > to block, but I don't see anything in the Mask rulings that > implies that the burning blood should be optional. A: BoeJlow bleeds B. B: Q. John attempts to block. C: Giotto masks and is now the acting minion. At this point, Q. John has not burned a blood to attempt to block Giotto. He must do so, or he cannot attempt to block. (i.e., if he doesn't burn a blood, he isn't attempting to block). [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3D185986...@white-wolf.com... > A: BoeJlow bleeds B. > B: Q. John attempts to block. > C: Giotto masks and is now the acting minion. > > At this point, Q. John has not burned a blood to attempt to block > Giotto. He must do so, or he cannot attempt to block. > (i.e., if he doesn't burn a blood, he isn't attempting to block). So, the difference between this and Aching Beauty is because of the wording "to attempt to"? Since Aching Beauty's effect is a "side effect" of blocking, there's no "opportunity to back out" with Mask, but since Giotto's ability is a "cost" to block, you can back out if you don't want to pay? It seems more intuitive to me that you'd be required to pay if able, since the attempt has already been declared and has not been negated by Mask, but maybe that's just me. Josh of a single face

Joshua Duffin wrote: > > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > news:3D185986...@white-wolf.com... > > > A: BoeJlow bleeds B. > > B: Q. John attempts to block. > > C: Giotto masks and is now the acting minion. > > > > At this point, Q. John has not burned a blood to attempt to block > > Giotto. He must do so, or he cannot attempt to block. > > (i.e., if he doesn't burn a blood, he isn't attempting to block). > > So, the difference between this and Aching Beauty is because > of the wording "to attempt to"? Since Aching Beauty's effect > is a "side effect" of blocking, there's no "opportunity to > back out" with Mask, but since Giotto's ability is a "cost" > to block, you can back out if you don't want to pay? Sure. > It seems more intuitive to me that you'd be required to pay > if able, since the attempt has already been declared and has > not been negated by Mask, but maybe that's just me. Yeah, you don't pay for having attempted. You pay in order to attempt. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: >>It seems more intuitive to me that you'd be required to pay >>if able, since the attempt has already been declared and has >>not been negated by Mask, but maybe that's just me. >> > > Yeah, you don't pay for having attempted. You pay in order to > attempt. > > Is this true if masking was done at inferior as well? Ie, can the blocking minion back out of blocking an action that lacks enough stealth to make the block fail? Sten During

Sten During wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Adding to my own question. Can the blocking minion at ANY time opt to back out before the acting metuselah clearly states that he/she will no longer play any more modifiers? Example: Smudge bleeds, Anneke attempts to block, Suhailah masks at inferior, Suhailah plays Lost in Crowds, Suhailah plays Kiss of Ra. If the acting meth explicitly wants to play his/her effects without allowing the blocking meth to play any effects in between, is the blocker allowed to opt out from blocking (and thus never suffer the effects from Kiss of Ra)? Sten During

Sten During wrote: > LSJ wrote: > >>It seems more intuitive to me that you'd be required to pay > >>if able, since the attempt has already been declared and has > >>not been negated by Mask, but maybe that's just me. > > Yeah, you don't pay for having attempted. You pay in order to > > attempt. > Is this true if masking was done at inferior as well? Yes. That was the question being answered in this thread. [ quoted text not captured ]

Sten During wrote: > Adding to my own question. Can the blocking minion at ANY time opt > to back out before the acting metuselah clearly states that he/she > will no longer play any more modifiers? No. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > Sten During wrote: > >>LSJ wrote: >> >>>>It seems more intuitive to me that you'd be required to pay >>>>if able, since the attempt has already been declared and has >>>>not been negated by Mask, but maybe that's just me. >>>> >>>Yeah, you don't pay for having attempted. You pay in order to >>>attempt. >>> >>Is this true if masking was done at inferior as well? >> > > Yes. That was the question being answered in this thread. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sten During wrote: > Adding to my own question. Can the blocking minion at ANY time opt > to back out before the acting metuselah clearly states that he/she > will no longer play any more modifiers? No. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pasting in from the other subthread as it's relevant. I don't see how both of your answers go together. If the blocking minion can opt to back out from blocking an action that doesn't have enough stealth to succeed then the following questions arise: 1) Smudge bleeds and Anneke attempts to block. Suhailah, previously voted to be an Archon, masks at inferior. Can Anneke now stop attempting to block and avoid burning one blood? At the time Mask is played Anneke is still attempting to block the bleed. 2) Above play, but Suhailah's controller needing to cycle cards plays Lost in Crowds telling Annekes controller that the added stealth is to be played before blocker may play any effects. After added stealth, can Anneke stop attempting to block? Will Anneke burn one blood anyway as she was still attempting to block at the time Lost in Crowds was played? 3) Above play, but Suhailah's controller got the wanted Kiss of Ra on hand and sends Anneke to torpor. Can Annekes controller state that Anneke stoppped blocking in order to only burn two blood for Kiss of Ra but none for Suhailas being an Archon? Ie Anneke would effectively be torporized by Kiss of Ra for attempting to block while at the same time avoid burning one blood because she was no longer attempting to block. Sten During

Sten During wrote: > > LSJ wrote: > > > Sten During wrote: > > > >>LSJ wrote: > >> > >>>>It seems more intuitive to me that you'd be required to pay > >>>>if able, since the attempt has already been declared and has > >>>>not been negated by Mask, but maybe that's just me. > >>>> > >>>Yeah, you don't pay for having attempted. You pay in order to > >>>attempt. > >>> > >>Is this true if masking was done at inferior as well? > >> > > > > Yes. That was the question being answered in this thread. > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sten During wrote: > > > Adding to my own question. Can the blocking minion at ANY time opt > > to back out before the acting metuselah clearly states that he/she > > will no longer play any more modifiers? > > No. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Pasting in from the other subthread as it's relevant. > > I don't see how both of your answers go together. If the blocking minion > can opt to back out from blocking an action that doesn't have enough > stealth to succeed then the following questions arise: See Giotto's card text. The vampire must burn a blood to attempt to block Giotto. If he doesn't burn a blood, he isn't atempting to block. It has nothing to do with stealth. > 1) Smudge bleeds and Anneke attempts to block. Suhailah, previously > voted to be an Archon, masks at inferior. Can Anneke now stop attempting > to block and avoid burning one blood? At the time Mask is played Anneke > is still attempting to block the bleed. No. Archon isn't "burn to attempt to block". It's "attempt to block creates a burn blood effect". > 2) Above play, but Suhailah's controller needing to cycle cards plays > Lost in Crowds telling Annekes controller that the added stealth is to > be played before blocker may play any effects. After added stealth, can > Anneke stop attempting to block? Will Anneke burn one blood anyway as > she was still attempting to block at the time Lost in Crowds was played? She'll still burn the blood for the attempt. > 3) Above play, but Suhailah's controller got the wanted Kiss of Ra on > hand and sends Anneke to torpor. Can Annekes controller state that > Anneke stoppped blocking in order to only burn two blood for Kiss of > Ra but none for Suhailas being an Archon? Ie Anneke would effectively > be torporized by Kiss of Ra for attempting to block while at the same > time avoid burning one blood because she was no longer attempting to > block. No. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: >> >> > Adding to my own question. Can the blocking minion at ANY time opt >> > to back out before the acting metuselah clearly states that he/she >> > will no longer play any more modifiers? >> >>No. >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Pasting in from the other subthread as it's relevant. > See Giotto's card text. > The vampire must burn a blood to attempt to block Giotto. > If he doesn't burn a blood, he isn't atempting to block. > > It has nothing to do with stealth. > Ok, I see that part, but I still have problems with sequencing. Let's make it a cornercase example: Smudge bleeds and Anneke attempts to block. Giotto (with superior Fortitude), masks at inferior and his controller explicitly states that more modifiers will come before blocker will be allowed to play any effects. At this time Anneke is still attempting to block and Giottos controller plays Kiss of Ra and after that tells the controller of the now torporized Anneke that he/she may now play whatever effects are appropriate. Can Annekes controller say that Anneke never intended to burn a blood and should therefore not be torporized by Kiss of Ra? If yes, must Giotto still pay 3 blood for the retroactively illegally played Kiss of Ra? The situation is quite similar with the peculiar choise to play Dawn Operation at inferior when blocked and then exercising your right as acting metuselah to play Mask of a Thousand Faces before the blocker gets to opt out of blocking, effectively cancelling the played Dawn Operation. Sten During

Sten During wrote: > > LSJ wrote: > > >> > >> > Adding to my own question. Can the blocking minion at ANY time opt > >> > to back out before the acting metuselah clearly states that he/she > >> > will no longer play any more modifiers? > >> > >>No. > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>Pasting in from the other subthread as it's relevant. > > > See Giotto's card text. > > The vampire must burn a blood to attempt to block Giotto. > > If he doesn't burn a blood, he isn't atempting to block. > > > > It has nothing to do with stealth. > > > > Ok, I see that part, but I still have problems with sequencing. > > Let's make it a cornercase example: > > Smudge bleeds and Anneke attempts to block. Giotto (with superior > Fortitude), masks at inferior and his controller explicitly states > that more modifiers will come before blocker will be allowed to play > any effects. At this time Anneke is still attempting to block and > Giottos Not true. Anneke cannot be attempting to block Giotto since she hasn't burned a blood to do so. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > > Not true. Anneke cannot be attempting to block Giotto since she hasn't > burned a blood to do so. > > Ok, let's see if I have got this right. Giotto's entering the stage causes the block to fail unless the blocker burns a blood? Sten During

[ quoted text not captured ] Giotto's becoming the acting minion causes the minion who would be attempting to block him to be forced to pay a blood for the priviledge. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3D19BC0A...@white-wolf.com... > Sten During wrote: > > > > LSJ wrote: > > > > > > > > Not true. Anneke cannot be attempting to block Giotto since she hasn't > > > burned a blood to do so. > > > > > > > > > > Ok, let's see if I have got this right. Giotto's entering the stage > > causes the block to fail unless the blocker burns a blood? > > Giotto's becoming the acting minion causes the minion who would be > attempting to block him to be forced to pay a blood for the priviledge. "Dear lady Anneke, would you block me for a dance ? yes, my dear Giotto, this would be a privilege..." and they married and had a lot of infernal progeny together.