Aggravated damage question

With the changed rules of how aggravated damage is treated, is the effect for both examples the same if: a) A vampire with 2 blood left receives 2 points of normal damage and 1 point of aggravated, b) Same as above, but the damage received is 3 normal damage. Will both examples result in the vampire going to torpor with zero blood? It seems to me the aggravated damage here should have some kind of extra effect, but according to the rules it shouldn't? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

can...@my-deja.com wrote: > With the changed rules of how aggravated damage is treated, is the > effect for both examples the same if: > > a) A vampire with 2 blood left receives 2 points of normal damage > and 1 point of aggravated, Since regular damage is handled first, the vampire must spend the two blood to heal the two points of regular damage. Then the point of aggravated damage "wounds" the vampire, sending it to torpor. > b) Same as above, but the damage received is 3 normal damage. The vampire must spend three blood to heal the three points of damage. Since it only has two, the vampire can not heal the third point and is wounded, sending it to torpor. Since the vampire is already "wounded", it must spend a blood for every point of aggravated damage it receives. Since it has no blood, the vampire is burned. Another scenario you should be aware of 2 normal and 2 aggravated damage. The two regular is paid for by removing the two blood. The first point of aggravated damage wounds the vampire because it cannot be healed, sending it to torpor. The 2nd point of aggravated damage must be paid for, since the vampire is already wounded, or it is burned. Since it has no blood, it is burned. I realise that the current rules regarding aggravated damage are a bit confusing. However, it is one of the rules that will be better phrased when the Sabbat War rulebook sees print. (But don't send suggestions for rewording rules. The final version of the rulebook is, at the very least, in the final stages of pre-production or, more likely, already sent off to the print presses.) Regards, Noal McDonald NJL Rules Team Member/VEKN Prince of Farmington Hills, MI -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:51:04 GMT, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: >> b) Same as above, but the damage received is 3 normal damage. > >The vampire must spend three blood to heal the three points of damage. >Since it only has two, the vampire can not heal the third point and is >wounded, sending it to torpor. Since the vampire is already "wounded", >it must spend a blood for every point of aggravated damage it receives. >Since it has no blood, the vampire is burned. > As I understand the original question the scenario is: vampire with 2 blood recieves three non-aggravated damage. The the result is the same as with 2 normal + 1 aggravated damage: The vampire spends two blood to heal two points of damage, then it is not able to spend a third blood to heal the third point of damage, thus going into torpor. The outcome for both scenarios is the same. Which might sound a bit strange, but there are plenty of good reasons why a vampire should not be burned by a single point of aggravated damage... Regards Skaffen Chantry Elder Of Munich "Our hearts discern wild images of Death, Shadows and shoals that edge eternity."

gregor...@firemail.de (skaffen) wrote: > As I understand the original question the scenario is: vampire with 2 > blood recieves three non-aggravated damage. The the result is the same > as with 2 normal + 1 aggravated damage: The vampire spends two blood > to heal two points of damage, then it is not able to spend a third > blood to heal the third point of damage, thus going into torpor. Correct. In both cases, the vampire would be in torpor with no blood. > The outcome for both scenarios is the same. In this intance, yes. > Which might sound a bit strange, but there are plenty of > good reasons why a vampire should not be burned by a single > point of aggravated damage... A vampire _can_ be burned by a single point of damage. For example, a vampire with two blood that takes 3 normal damage and 1 agg damage will be burned. The current official ruling is a functional compromise between the original Jyhad ruling that made it impossible to burn a vampire with a single point of aggravated damage and the VTES rule that made it fairly easy to burn a vampire with agg damage. However, the downside to the ruling is that it is fairly difficult to explain. That's why us National Jyhad League folks use the VTES rule. Regards, Noal McDoanld Prince/Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI [ quoted text not captured ]

> >Since it has no blood, the vampire is burned. > > > > As I understand the original question the scenario is: vampire with 2 > blood recieves three non-aggravated damage. The the result is the same > as with 2 normal + 1 aggravated damage: The vampire spends two blood > to heal two points of damage, then it is not able to spend a third > blood to heal the third point of damage, thus going into torpor. The > outcome for both scenarios is the same. Which might sound a bit > strange, but there are plenty of good reasons why a vampire should not > be burned by a single point of aggravated damage... > > Regards > > Skaffen > Chantry Elder Of Munich > > "Our hearts discern wild images of Death, > Shadows and shoals that edge eternity." > This seems likes a good time to ask some questions about aggravated damage that have been bothering me for some time. 1) If a vampire recieves aggravated damage and normal damage at the same time which is resolved first? ( example: Carrion Crows and Wolf Claws) 2) What if the damage is not all resloved at the same time. (Wolf Claws and Drawing out the Beast) 3) What if they are resolved at different times but it is all aggravated (I play Dawn Operation, Drawing out the Beast, and strike with Scorpian Sting) 4) What if they are resolved at different times and twice during the same strike phase, not addition strike. (I put a fortitude skill card on Dragos, I play Dawn Operation, 3 Horde Forms, 2 Drawing out the Beast, 1 Scorpian Sting and 1 Blood to Acid). Trust me, this happens and I played Reform the Body on Dragos, and he rescued himself in the same turn. Poor fool, thought Acrobatics and a Sengir Dagger would protect him. Thanks, Justin Kinderd Historian [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <399333e9...@news.space.net>, gregor...@firemail.de (skaffen) wrote: > On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:51:04 GMT, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> > wrote: > > >> b) Same as above, but the damage received is 3 normal damage. > > > >The vampire must spend three blood to heal the three points of damage. > >Since it only has two, the vampire can not heal the third point and is > >wounded, sending it to torpor. Since the vampire is already "wounded", > >it must spend a blood for every point of aggravated damage it receives. > >Since it has no blood, the vampire is burned. > > > > As I understand the original question the scenario is: vampire with 2 > blood recieves three non-aggravated damage. The the result is the same > as with 2 normal + 1 aggravated damage: The vampire spends two blood > to heal two points of damage, then it is not able to spend a third > blood to heal the third point of damage, thus going into torpor. The > outcome for both scenarios is the same. Which might sound a bit > strange, but there are plenty of good reasons why a vampire should not > be burned by a single point of aggravated damage... > > Regards > > Skaffen > Chantry Elder Of Munich > > "Our hearts discern wild images of Death, > Shadows and shoals that edge eternity." > > Yes this is how I meant, but I realise my wording made it unclear :) Thanks to both of you for your answers. IMO I think the VTES rules for aggravated dmg should have stayed, after all it's usually harder to win with a combat deck than a bleed deck, and there's enough of things to prevent dmg with anyway. [ quoted text not captured ]

kindred_...@my-deja.com wrote: > This seems likes a good time to ask some questions about aggravated > damage that have been bothering me for some time. I'll be happy to help in any way that I can. > 1) If a vampire recieves aggravated damage and normal damage at the > same time which is resolved first? ( example: Carrion Crows and Wolf > Claws) Per the rulebook, normal damage is resolved first. > 2) What if the damage is not all resloved at the same time. (Wolf > Claws and Drawing out the Beast) It's resolved in the order it's received. The 1 agg from Wolf Claws is resolved before the 1 normal from DotB, in this case. > 3) What if they are resolved at different times but it is all > aggravated (I play Dawn Operation, Drawing out the Beast, and > strike with Scorpian Sting) Again, it's resolved in the order that it's received. In this case, the the vampire receives 2 agg from the Scorpion Sting/Dawn Op, which sends the vampire to torpor and requires the vampire to spend 1 blood to avoid being burned. (Because it can't be healed, the first point of agg damage simply "wounds" the vampire, sending it to torpor.) Then the vampire receives an additional point of aggravated damage from DotB/Dawn Op which requires it to burn an additional point of plood to avoid being burned. > 4) What if they are resolved at different times and twice during the > same strike phase, not addition strike. All damage received during a single strike phase is handled simultaneously during the damage resolution phase that follows the strike resolution phase. > (I put a fortitude skill card on Dragos, I play Dawn Operation, 3 > Horde Forms, 2 Drawing out the Beast, 1 Scorpian Sting and 1 Blood > to Acid). In this case, the 5 agg damage from the Dawn Op/(3x) Horrid Form/Scorpion Sting would be resolved at the same time as any agg damage that Blood to Acid inflicts. Then it would be followed by the 2 agg from the Dawn Op/(2x) DotB. Assuming that the opposing vampire hit you for 1 pt of damage (normal or agg) and couldn't prevent any damage, it would have to pay 7 blood to avoid being burned. Regards, Noal McDonald Prince/Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8n11jt$jb7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, can...@my-deja.com writes >IMO I think the VTES rules for >aggravated dmg should have stayed, after all it's usually harder to win >with a combat deck than a bleed deck, and there's enough of things to >prevent dmg with anyway. Well, I can see arguments in favour of keeping the V:TES rule, I'll keep that as a separate thing entirely. With regards preventing damage, however, your only real disciplineless options are Flak Jacket and Leather Jacket - and against a concerted attack of the sort you mention, multiple damage rather than just a 1 point claw - only Leather Jacket is really usable. I would say, though, that despite the extra complexity of the rule, the new rule *is* worth the effort. -- James Coupe

Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > kindred_...@my-deja.com wrote: > > 1) If a vampire recieves aggravated damage and normal damage at the > > same time which is resolved first? ( example: Carrion Crows and Wolf > > Claws) > > Per the rulebook, normal damage is resolved first. Correct. > > 2) What if the damage is not all resloved at the same time. (Wolf > > Claws and Drawing out the Beast) > > It's resolved in the order it's received. Correct. > The 1 agg from Wolf Claws is resolved before the 1 normal from DotB, > in this case. Right. And the 1 normal still requires the (now-wounded) vampire to burn a blood (to heal the damage). If he can't, though, he'll simply remain "wounded" - normal damage has no other effect. > > 3) What if they are resolved at different times but it is all > > aggravated (I play Dawn Operation, Drawing out the Beast, and > > strike with Scorpian Sting) > > Again, it's resolved in the order that it's received. > > In this case, the the vampire receives 2 agg from the Scorpion > Sting/Dawn Op, which sends the vampire to torpor and requires the > vampire to spend 1 blood to avoid being burned. (Because it can't be > healed, the first point of agg damage simply "wounds" the vampire, > sending it to torpor.) Then the vampire receives an additional point > of aggravated damage from DotB/Dawn Op which requires it to burn an > additional point of plood to avoid being burned. Correct. > > 4) What if they are resolved at different times and twice during the > > same strike phase, not addition strike. > > All damage received during a single strike phase is handled > simultaneously during the damage resolution phase that follows the > strike resolution phase. Damage resolution is part of strike resolution, but OK. Strike resolution occurs in two stages: apply effect(s) of strike(s) and then resolve damage (if any). > > (I put a fortitude skill card on Dragos, I play Dawn Operation, 3 > > Horde Forms, 2 Drawing out the Beast, 1 Scorpian Sting and 1 Blood > > to Acid). > > In this case, the 5 agg damage from the Dawn Op/(3x) Horrid > Form/Scorpion Sting would be resolved at the same time as any agg > damage that Blood to Acid inflicts. Then it would be followed by > the 2 agg from the Dawn Op/(2x) DotB. Assuming that the opposing > vampire hit you for 1 pt of damage (normal or agg) and couldn't > prevent any damage, it would have to pay 7 blood to avoid being > burned. 6 blood. The first point of agg wounds him, then he pays 4 for the rest during strike resolution, then two more for the DotB at the end of the round. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

<snip> > > > (I put a fortitude skill card on Dragos, I play Dawn Operation, 3 > > > Horde Forms, 2 Drawing out the Beast, 1 Scorpian Sting and 1 Blood > > > to Acid). > > > > In this case, the 5 agg damage from the Dawn Op/(3x) Horrid > > Form/Scorpion Sting would be resolved at the same time as any agg > > damage that Blood to Acid inflicts. Then it would be followed by > > the 2 agg from the Dawn Op/(2x) DotB. Assuming that the opposing > > vampire hit you for 1 pt of damage (normal or agg) and couldn't > > prevent any damage, it would have to pay 7 blood to avoid being > > burned. > > 6 blood. The first point of agg wounds him, then he pays 4 for the > rest during strike resolution, then two more for the DotB at the end > of the round Surely minimum damage the opposing minion would do would be 3 - DOtB x2 gives +2 hand damage. Dragos only has basic vissitude, so does not get the damage prevention of Horrid Form. Therefore, damage would be 8 blood (unless fortitude damage prevention cards are played). Nit picking is great fun! DH Anal Retentive Prince of Watford [ quoted text not captured ]

>> Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: >> In this case, the 5 agg damage from the Dawn Op/(3x) Horrid >> Form/Scorpion Sting would be resolved at the same time as any agg >> damage that Blood to Acid inflicts. Then it would be followed by >> the 2 agg from the Dawn Op/(2x) DotB. Assuming that the opposing >> vampire hit you for 1 pt of damage (normal or agg) and couldn't >> prevent any damage, it would have to pay 7 blood to avoid being >> burned. > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > 6 blood. The first point of agg wounds him, then he pays 4 for the > rest during strike resolution, then two more for the DotB at the end > of the round. Uh...no. Count it again. Dawn Op/(3x) Horrid Form/Scorpion Sting = 5 agg Blood to Acid = 1 agg (assumed) Dawn Op/(2x) DotB = 2 agg 8 agg damage = sent to torpor, spend 7 blood to avoid being burned. Regards, Noal -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald wrote: > >> Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > >> In this case, the 5 agg damage from the Dawn Op/(3x) Horrid > >> Form/Scorpion Sting would be resolved at the same time as any agg > >> damage that Blood to Acid inflicts. Then it would be followed by > >> the 2 agg from the Dawn Op/(2x) DotB. Assuming that the opposing > >> vampire hit you for 1 pt of damage (normal or agg) and couldn't > >> prevent any damage, it would have to pay 7 blood to avoid being > >> burned. > > > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > 6 blood. The first point of agg wounds him, then he pays 4 for the > > rest during strike resolution, then two more for the DotB at the end > > of the round. > > Uh...no. Count it again. > > Dawn Op/(3x) Horrid Form/Scorpion Sting = 5 agg > Blood to Acid = 1 agg (assumed) > Dawn Op/(2x) DotB = 2 agg > > 8 agg damage = sent to torpor, spend 7 blood to avoid being burned. Ah. Right you are. Sorry about that. Glossed over the Acid (since it didn't have a number in it to catch my eye :-) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]