Okay, here's something that I was asked at EuroGenCon by someone after
the tourney because they were talking about one of the Gangrel decks
they wanted to put together.
If I block an action, everything to do with that action is forgotten,
right? So, if I rush you and you block, I don't get the maneuver from
the Bum's rush because that's forgotten. Unless I specifically restart
the action with something like superior Form of Mist (after a block),
the action is forgotten right. The combat is not part of the action at
all, if the action was blocked, yes?
Also, if someone blocks me, they have to use Cats' Guidance before the
combat because the combat is not part of the block.
So, a combat seems to eject everything about an action except those
things which *specifically* carry into the combat (eg superior
Alacrity).
What about Uncontrollable Rage? If I rush you and you don't or can't
block, then I have the extra agg hand damage, right? What happens if
you block? I would have thought that the hand damage was intended to be
there (because your uncontrollable rage should deter people from
blocking). However, within the letter of the rules, I can't quite
justify it.
What was it intended to do? Is there a section of the rules that still
allows it do that or does it need errata?
Thanks.
--
James Coupe (remove .nospam to reply by e-mail)
If you find you are falling into madness - dive
James Coupe wrote:
>
> Okay, here's something that I was asked at EuroGenCon by someone after
> the tourney because they were talking about one of the Gangrel decks
> they wanted to put together.
>
> If I block an action, everything to do with that action is forgotten,
> right? So, if I rush you and you block, I don't get the maneuver from
> the Bum's rush because that's forgotten. Unless I specifically
> restart the action with something like superior Form of Mist (after a block),
> the action is forgotten right. The combat is not part of the action
> at all, if the action was blocked, yes?
Correct, the combat is not part of the action and the manuever is lost.
> Also, if someone blocks me, they have to use Cats' Guidance before the
> combat because the combat is not part of the block.
Correct again.
> So, a combat seems to eject everything about an action except those
> things which *specifically* carry into the combat (eg superior
> Alacrity).
>
> What about Uncontrollable Rage? If I rush you and you don't or can't
> block, then I have the extra agg hand damage, right? What happens if
> you block? I would have thought that the hand damage was intended to
> be there (because your uncontrollable rage should deter people from
> blocking). However, within the letter of the rules, I can't quite
> justify it.
Uncontrollable Rage (Combat) 2 Blood/Protean
Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. This acting
minion gets +1 aggrivated hand damage until the end of this action.
Superior: As above, but the minion gets +2 aggrivated hand damage.
I see the confusion. I suspect it was intended to allow a minion to
have +X agg hand damage if a combat results from an action being
blocked. However, the wording clearly only allows UR to gain the +X
bonus when an "Enter combat with" action, such as Bum's Rush, is _not_
blocked. I don't see how you can interpret it any other way. It does
seem a nice way to insure a block though. Makes Hidden Lurker a little
nicer.
But, there are still questions even if the action isn't blocked. I seem
to remember reading recently (but can't find it now) that the combat
resulting from an unblocked Bum's Rush is considered part of (or at
least related to) the action. If that is the case then UR is Ok. I
don't think it works as intended but it is OK.
What I can find in print is some text on Form of Mist that reads: "This
is because the results of an action are considered to take effect after
that action is successful." This fits with your understanding of Cat's
Guidance and prior rulings on the timing of Freak Drive when played
after a Bum's Rush - that the action is successful when not blocked.
If the combat is considered "part of" the resolution of an unblocked
Bum's Rush, then the action isn't considered complete until the combat
is over. If the combat is considered successful as soon as it is decided
that no one has blocked then Freak Drive and Cat's Guidance are only
playable at this one moment and not after the combat.
If the combat is "part of" the unblocked BR's resolution then UR should
work. If combat is successful the moment no block is made then UR will
never apply as it is written.
I can't wait to see the official answer on this one.
-Robert
| Vampire: the Eternal Struggle | Robert Goudie
| Halloween Tournament | Event Coordinator
| CRUSADE: LOS ANGELES | robert...@studio.disney.com
| Oct. 25, 1997 Glendale, Calif |
For Information Email to: info.cr...@juno.com
Via the web at: www.cs.ucr.edu/~ezix/other/rg/tourn1.html
>
> What was it intended to do? Is there a section of the rules that
> still allows it do that or does it need errata?
>
> Thanks.
> --
>
> James Coupe (remove .nospam to reply by e-mail)
>
> If you find you are falling into madness - dive
--
......................................................................
:The opinions expressed here are strictly my own delusional ramblings:
:and do not reflect the opinions of The Walt Disney Company. :
: :
:Robert Goudie robert...@studio.disney.com:
:LA V:tES Tournament Info www.cs.ucr.edu/~ezix/other/rg/vtourn_1.html:
:....................................................................:
: Don Tomas Special Edition * V:tES * Chivas Regal * r.a.i.f. * TNMS :
:....................................................................:
James Coupe (ja...@obeah.demon.co.uk.nospam) wrote:
: What about Uncontrollable Rage? If I rush you and you don't or can't: block, then I have the extra agg hand damage, right? What happens if
: you block? I would have thought that the hand damage was intended to be
: there (because your uncontrollable rage should deter people from
: blocking). However, within the letter of the rules, I can't quite
: justify it.: What was it intended to do? Is there a section of the rules that still: allows it do that or does it need errata?
I would say that the card "uncontrollable rage" would be at stealth, correct?
So would require an intercept to block that action. But Im not familiar
with uncontrollable rage so I dont know.
--
-- mark heath - Netspace Online Systems. http://www.netspace.net.au/
Obnoxious Usenet Habits #66. In the spirit of purest optimism, ask other
readers to followup with their account passwords and credit card numbers.
:wq
James Coupe wrote:
> If I block an action, everything to do with that action is forgotten,
> right? So, if I rush you and you block, I don't get the maneuver from
> the Bum's rush because that's forgotten. Unless I specifically restart
> the action with something like superior Form of Mist (after a block),
> the action is forgotten right. The combat is not part of the action at
> all, if the action was blocked, yes?
Correct, essentially. The action is not exactly forgotten. But it is
blocked. Blocked actions do not resolve. A blocked Bum's Rush will
not give a maneuver any more than a blocked Legal Manipulations will
gain you a pool.
> Also, if someone blocks me, they have to use Cats' Guidance before the
> combat because the combat is not part of the block.
Correct.
> So, a combat seems to eject everything about an action except those
> things which *specifically* carry into the combat (eg superior
> Alacrity).
Alacrity is an action modifier, so takes effect immediately (or
as specified on card text). Some modifiers (like +bleed) seem to
wait until the action resolves - but they actually increase the
bleed amount immediately. The bleed is simply not paid for until
later (if successful).
> What about Uncontrollable Rage? If I rush you and you don't or can't
> block, then I have the extra agg hand damage, right? What happens if
> you block? I would have thought that the hand damage was intended to be
> there (because your uncontrollable rage should deter people from
> blocking). However, within the letter of the rules, I can't quite
> justify it.
>
> What was it intended to do? Is there a section of the rules that still
> allows it do that or does it need errata?
It modifies the minion directly ("This minion gets... until the end
of the action"). It is an action modifer, so takes effect
immediately. Like most action modifiers, it lasts for the duration
of the action. It makes this duration explicit for obvious reasons.
The enraged vampire has extra agg hand damage in combat until the
end of the current action. This is true whether that combat is the
result of a successful action (Bum's Rush) or from a block.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team
In article <5vjhc3$7...@news.wizards.com>, "LSJ (VtES Rep)"
<vte...@wizards.com> writes
>> What about Uncontrollable Rage? If I rush you and you don't or can't
>> block, then I have the extra agg hand damage, right? What happens if
>> you block? I would have thought that the hand damage was intended to be
>> there (because your uncontrollable rage should deter people from
>> blocking). However, within the letter of the rules, I can't quite
>> justify it.
>>
>> What was it intended to do? Is there a section of the rules that still
>> allows it do that or does it need errata?>
>It modifies the minion directly ("This minion gets... until the end
> of the action"). It is an action modifer, so takes effect
>immediately. Like most action modifiers, it lasts for the duration
>of the action. It makes this duration explicit for obvious reasons.
>
>The enraged vampire has extra agg hand damage in combat until the
>end of the current action. This is true whether that combat is the
>result of a successful action (Bum's Rush) or from a block.
So what you are saying is that the combat resulting from a block is
still part of the action, right? But it's not part of the block?
The problem was that since you had to Cat's Guidance before the combat
occuring from a block, which made me think that the combat was
completely separate from everything. eg a little quote from you..
"The combat occurs after the block, not as a part of it, according
to the Rules Team. Therefore, "after the action" is before the
combat.
It gets a little heady when applied to Form of Mist, but I can't
change the Rules Team's rulings."
This was with regards to Freak Drive, where it was said that it had to
be played immediately after an action (a reply to James B. Floate) so
when an action was blocked, it had to be played before the combat (at
superior). There was no correction from you.
Phew, it ain't half confusing.
Full text of that posting follows:
James B. Floate wrote:
> Chris Shorb wrote:
> > With the absence of LSJ until tomorrow, I will venture an answer. My
> > understanding is that you untap immediately after the block is
> > successful, but before combat begins - usually a moot point. Sometimes it
> > can be useful, like if you then play an Obedience - you are left
> > untapped, which wouldn't happen if you played a Wakey.
> > I believe the same holds true for Freak Drive at superior - you
> > play it before you enter combat but after the action has been
> > blocked. This means that you pay for the Freak Drive before you go into
> > combat, which can hurt you in the ensuing combat.
>
> To begin, Freak Drive doesnt permit of your reading Chris. The normal
> version is play immediately_after_this vampire successfully completes an
> action. The superior version says 'as above'.
The combat occurs after the block, not as a part of it, according
to the Rules Team. Therefore, "after the action" is before the
combat.
It gets a little heady when applied to Form of Mist, but I can't
change the Rules Team's rulings.
> Contra both Chris and James C. I find it bizzare that you would play a
> Cats guidance before the combat. I consider the combat part of the
> action
> due to effects like Form of Mist and Shadow Body, and the that the
> action is not resolved until the combat has finished.
Reasonable, but not official.
>>-- (to stop it being my name and signture - James)
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team
So, if I have to play a Freak Drive before the combat then why does the
hand damage carry into the combat?
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Coupe wrote:
> LSJ (VtES Rep) <vte...@wizards.com> writes:
> >[Unc. Rage] modifies the minion directly ("This minion gets... until the end> > of the action"). It is an action modifer, so takes effect
> >immediately. Like most action modifiers, it lasts for the duration
> >of the action. It makes this duration explicit for obvious reasons.
> >
> >The enraged vampire has extra agg hand damage in combat until the
> >end of the current action. This is true whether that combat is the
> >result of a successful action (Bum's Rush) or from a block.
>
> So what you are saying is that the combat resulting from a block is
> still part of the action, right? But it's not part of the block?
Correct.
> The problem was that since you had to Cat's Guidance before the combat
> occuring from a block, which made me think that the combat was
> completely separate from everything. eg a little quote from you..
>
> "The combat occurs after the block, not as a part of it, according
> to the Rules Team. Therefore, "after the action" is before the
> combat.
>
> It gets a little heady when applied to Form of Mist, but I can't
> change the Rules Team's rulings."
>
> This was with regards to Freak Drive, where it was said that it had to
> be played immediately after an action (a reply to James B. Floate) so
> when an action was blocked, it had to be played before the combat (at
> superior). There was no correction from you.
Ah. Yes. That answer is a little overstepped. And therefore misleading.
My apologies for apparently creating this mess. (Actually, the ruling
that block-combat is distinct from the block is the problem, but, since
I already had that problem, I shouldn't have added to it with my
over-broad statement).
Cat's Guidance is fine - it only worries about "immediately after the
block" so (with the ruling on block and block-combat) it is clearly
played before combat.
Freak Drive (superior) has been ruled to be played at the same time as
Cat's Guidance, probably because that was what was intended. Card text
is vague, however, since it can only be played after a successful action,
but even if the action is blocked (i.e., the superior doesn't say when
it can be played, only that it can now be played if the action is
blocked).
Is this getting clearer, or am I just confusing the issue more?
--
[ quoted text not captured ]