Femur of Toomler Question

I'm getting a little confused about who can do what with clan-or- discipline-specific minion cards, particularly equipment. The V:tES rulebook states that only an appropriate vampire can "use" or "play" such cards. As this related to retainers, this seemed to mean that only a vampire with the appropriate qualifications could recruit such a retainer, but any vampire could "use" the retainer providing the means for transfering it (such as Far Mastery) could be found. (I'm not aware of any ruling on this. It was just how our groups always played.) DS and AH expansions introduced clan-specific equipment: Ancestor's Talisman, Mummy's Tongue, & Shackles of Inky-Doo. Retainers are never optional, but equipment always is optional (so I've heard), so it might not work the same. A minion posessing equipment specific to another clan might be unable to use it. With the Sabbat release, (for the first time that I know of) a clan-specific weapon: Femur of Toomler. One needs a Tzimisce for the original equip action, but I assume it can be transfered later. But a Nosferatu might not need Tzimisce help to obtain a Femur of Toomler, since he can obtain equipment without doing an equip action. All he must do is whip out the Femur as a Disguised Weapon. The card text says he must pay pool cost as normal, but it does not say anything else about the move is normal. Also, suppose I play Vast Wealth on my Nosferatu. He takes the equip action permitted by the card text and goes through his library. He now MUST equip with the first peice of equipment he finds (even if the pool cost ousts him, or so I've heard is the ruling). Well suppose the first thing he finds is a Femur of Toomler, or an Ancestor's Talisman? It seems to me that the above are not normal equip actions any more than Far Mastery or the special ability of Darius Styx are normal recruit retainer actions. Therefore they should be successful. Of course I still don't know if he can use them when he gets them. Have their been any rulings?

jbwh...@dorsai.org (John Whelan) writes: > The V:tES rulebook states that only an appropriate vampire can >"use" or "play" such cards. As this related to retainers, this seemed to >mean that only a vampire with the appropriate qualifications could recruit >such a retainer, but any vampire could "use" the retainer providing the >means for transfering it (such as Far Mastery) could be found. (I'm not >aware of any ruling on this. It was just how our groups always played.) "Use" is often used by the rules-writers and card-writers when they mean "play". Whther that is the case in this instance, I cannot say. > Have their been any rulings? No. So, based on the rulings governing retainers, I'd say that once the equipment is in play, any minion may use it (subject to card text, of course). -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | It's not the same when I'm http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | not in the holodeck Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | - Riker

L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) wrote: : "Use" is often used by the rules-writers and card-writers when they : mean "play". Whther that is the case in this instance, I cannot say. : > Have their been any rulings? : No. : So, based on the rulings governing retainers, I'd say that once the : equipment is in play, any minion may use it (subject to card text, : of course). You did not express an opinion on whether a minion is considered to be "playing" Femur of Toomler when he whips it out via Disguised Weapon. It does not really matter, because the text of DW is unambiguous (expecially the V:tES version), and (according to the Golden Rule for Cards) "Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedance." Wow, this is an enormous loophole! It means that Nosferatu can whip out the Femur more easily than can the Tzimisce themselves. This is most significant since the Femur is an awesome weapon. It does one more damage than the Sengir Dagger, but costs the same. The only justification for this is that the Femur has the disadvantage of being restricted to a particular clan, (and one that has neither Potence, Celerity, nor Fortitude to assist in burning opponents). However, this restriction, it seems, is easily circumvented. Even if your deck does not use Obfuscate, you can always throw in Vast Wealth and get the Femur that way. All decks will be using it, together with Potence, thus burning vampires left and right. If the rules team really wants to restrict this weapon to the Tzimisce, they ought to rule that while anyone may posess clan-specific equipment, only the particular clan may use it. Since use of equipment posessed is optional anyway, there is no contradiction with previous rulings regarding retainers. Meanwhile, however, my Nosferatu are delighted. We intend to take this weapon with us to our next game, and see if the other Methuselahs let them get away with it. J.B.Whelan

jbwh...@dorsai.org (John Whelan) writes: >You did not express an opinion on whether a minion is considered to be >"playing" Femur of Toomler when he whips it out via Disguised Weapon. It <Sorry - I missed that part of the original question> Any time a library card enters play, it is "played". You cannot use DW to play a clan-based card if the vampire is not a member of the appropriate clan. >does not really matter, because the text of DW is unambiguous (expecially >the V:tES version), and (according to the Golden Rule for Cards) "Whenever >the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedance." The card text doesn't say anything about overriding restrictions on playing the card. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | * <-- Tribble http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | o <-- Jean-Luc Tribble [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <58e571$5...@dorsai.dorsai.org>, John Whelan <jbwh...@dorsai.org> writes > With the Sabbat release, (for the first time that I know of) >a clan-specific weapon: Femur of Toomler. One needs a Tzimisce for the >original equip action, but I assume it can be transfered later. > But a Nosferatu might not need Tzimisce help to obtain a Femur >of Toomler, since he can obtain equipment without doing an equip action. >All he must do is whip out the Femur as a Disguised Weapon. The card >text says he must pay pool cost as normal, but it does not say anything >else about the move is normal. Disguised weapon says Equip a weapon from your hand. Now, the only definition of equip is under the equip action (pretty logical, huh). And if you want to take the storytelling angle then the Tzimisce are going to get VERY pissed off if someone steals the Femur that was used to kill one of the founders of the Tremere. Surely, then they're going to have it under lock and key. > Also, suppose I play Vast Wealth on my Nosferatu. He takes the >equip action permitted by the card text and goes through his library. He >now MUST equip with the first peice of equipment he finds (even if the >pool cost ousts him, or so I've heard is the ruling). Well suppose the >first thing he finds is a Femur of Toomler, or an Ancestor's Talisman? Equip actions from a Vast Wealth *have* to be legal. If you read Darkness Unveiled's question and answer section (the other parts of it are pretty buggered as far as rules go) then using a Vast Wealth on a minion with a sport bike on them would mean that a Hawg was burnt if that was the next equipment you found. > It seems to me that the above are not normal equip actions any >more than Far Mastery or the special ability of Darius Styx are normal >recruit retainer actions. Therefore they should be successful. No Darius Styx says specifically that you place the card on him - not equip or recruit and its at no cost. The other cards do say that you *equip* them. -- James Coupe.