Another Shock Troops Question - LSJ

OK, I am not willing to give in on these guys, so... If a Shock Troop vamp got hold of a Writ of Acceptance, would it be considered a Caitiff? My thinking is that in the Camerilla, there is no such thing as a Clanless vampire. To be part of the Camerilla, they have to accept the Traditions (denoted by the writ). All the "clanless" and "unalligned" camerilla vamps are swept into the movement that is the Caitiff. Therefore a clanless Sabbat vampire that became a Camerilla vampire would be a Caitiff. Whilst the closest equivalent of the caitiff in the Sabbat is the Panders, they still have equal rights to other clans - such is the nature of the Sabbat. The "Clanless" element of a Shock Troop vampire demonstrates the fact that they are so newly embraced that they have no idea about vampiric society - no one has told them and are not expected to last! However, if a Shock Troop had time to be educated and was accepted into the Camerilla (again denoted by the Writ of Acceptance), surely it would follow that they would be accepted as a Caitiff. So, whaddaya think LSJ? Best regards DH Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

In article <91sj9i$p0r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > OK, I am not willing to give in on these guys, so... > > If a Shock Troop vamp got hold of a Writ of Acceptance, would it be > considered a Caitiff? No. There's nothing to make it Caitiff. > My thinking is that in the Camerilla, there is no such thing as a > Clanless vampire. To be part of the Camerilla, they have to accept the > Traditions (denoted by the writ). All the "clanless" and "unalligned" > camerilla vamps are swept into the movement that is the Caitiff. That requires a leap of logic based on the WoD backstory. The rules do not preclude a clanless, non-Caitiff Camarilla. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ a écrit: > I > > That requires a leap of logic based on the WoD backstory. > The rules do not preclude a clanless, non-Caitiff Camarilla. > > I do agree on this peculiar point. But your dismissing of the WoD as irrelevant in V:tES is innacceptable to me. This game is based on the WoD, and its mood should reflect the whole WoD pattern. There are many points in V:tES which are shocking from the world's coherency standpoint, much more important than that mere Shock Troops quastion, but I guess that would merit a whole post for instance... I understand that you are the specialist of the "rules" question, right. But there are much more in the WoD than mere rules for yet another card game (I guess you already know that :-). So keep V:tES the "reflect" of a whole world, not an arbitrary (and sometimes really absurd) set of rules... I guess I will have to make a post someday to pinpoint some discrepancies between V:tES and the WoD (and I guess that are many more that I didn't notice :-) Regards JD

In article <3A42A924...@club-internet.fr>, Denis Tulbent <dtul...@club-internet.fr> wrote: > > > LSJ a écrit: > > > I > > > > That requires a leap of logic based on the WoD backstory. > > The rules do not preclude a clanless, non-Caitiff Camarilla. > > > > > > I do agree on this peculiar point. But your dismissing of the WoD as > irrelevant in V:tES is innacceptable to me. It is relevant as long as it does not adversely affect the CCG. beyond that the CCG comes first. When are people going to accept that? [ quoted text not captured ]

> > > That requires a leap of logic based on the WoD backstory. > > > The rules do not preclude a clanless, non-Caitiff Camarilla. > > > > > > > > > > I do agree on this peculiar point. But your dismissing of the WoD as > > irrelevant in V:tES is innacceptable to me. > It is relevant as long as it does not adversely affect the CCG. beyond > that the CCG comes first. When are people going to accept that I think the games should definitely be seperate entities BUT the World of Darkness that White Wolf created needs to be adhered to only because it is such a cool world. The mythology that White Wolf has created is fantastic... even if you have no interest in playing the role-playing game. I was actually a player of Jyhad long before I ever played the role-playing game. I had NO interest in playing role-playing games, as I was totally turned off of them by my experiences in early high-school with Dungeons and Dragons. I picked up a few of the 'Clanbooks' for the clans I liked in Jyhad, Brujah and Ventrue. I read them only because I wanted to find out more about the universe Jyhad was made from. I fell in love. I eventually started playing the role-playing games, though not very often (I still find the majority of Vampire: the Masquerade players to be absolute losers who play V:tM like D&D with fangs). However, I have about 50 or so of the 'rule' books, which I read because the setting fascinates me. I love the concept of 'clans' of vampires... I love the idea of the 'secret societies' controlling the world from the darkness... I love the whole 'uber-angst' feel of the World of Darkness. Jyhad is NOT the same game to be sure, but it does rely on that same set of myths and in my opinion can learn from the RPG. Even as far as expansions for Jyhad, the RPG is a great wealth of possibilities. The changes in the meta-storyline that White Wolf has recently instituted, such as the Gangrel leaving the Camarilla (and now apparently some Assamites have joined it!) are interesting and definitely create possibilities for the cards. Whether they would be good cards or not is questionable. A card that causes the Gangrel to lose their membership in the Camarilla would be both a boon and bane to Gangrel players... Primogen, Princes and Justicars lose their votes, but Gangrel can now play cards for non-Camarilla (ok... bad example). While it is not absolutely required for the cards to fall in line with the ongoing changes to the WoD, I believe that the theme should remain loyal to the mythos. Ultimately, when you remove all card text flavour and reduce the game to it's basic components, Jyhad could be about anything... gangsters in rival families, sports teams, whatever. At some level, it is the theme of the game that does appeal to us (or at least me). I love the fact that Jyhad is a game full of intricate strategies and infinite complexities but I also love the fact that it is about vampires... AND the World of Darkness specifically. As long as new cards are not broken, not wallpaper and don't take away from the fun of playing this game... I say bring them on! Making the cards with a flavour that follows the RPG makes more sense than anything else. If you are curious about what IS happening in the World of Darkness, check out the recently published clan novels... one for each clan starting with Toreador. I was expecting them to be poorly written hack novels. I was pleasantly surprised. They are well-written (mostly) and a lot of fun. Some of the vampires from the Sabbat War set do indeed come from these books. Moncada, Lucita, Sasha Vykos, Talley the Hound, Polonia, The Little Tailor of Prague and a few others I think. Cheers, WES

In article <91uod...@enews2.newsguy.com>, wes <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote: >If you are curious about what IS happening in the World of Darkness, check >out the recently published clan novels... one for each clan starting with >Toreador. I was expecting them to be poorly written hack novels. I was >pleasantly surprised. They are well-written (mostly) and a lot of fun. Some >of the vampires from the Sabbat War set do indeed come from these books. >Moncada, Lucita, Sasha Vykos, Talley the Hound, Polonia, The Little Tailor >of Prague and a few others I think. Other than Setite and the other one by Kathleen Ryan (Ravnos, I think?), which are excellent, the novels (up to 11 -- still haven't read Tremere and Nosferatu) are pretty pedestrian, with some real garbage by Gherbod Fleming. On the other hand, anyone called Gherbod has had enough horrors visited on him by an uncaring and cruel world, so it's no surprise he's taking vengeance by unleashing crap on the world. Stewart Wieck does pretty well, though, given that he's working with a garbage clan like the Toilet-doors that's almost impossible to make exciting. More limitations of the subject matter than of personal skill there. gomi not, you understand, that i'm opinionated or anything -- kono sora wo daite kagayaku, shounen yo shinwa ni nare.

On Fri, 22 Dec 2000 00:19:31 -0800, wes wrote: >> It is relevant as long as it does not adversely affect the CCG. beyond >> that the CCG comes first. When are people going to accept that > >I think the games should definitely be seperate entities BUT the World of >Darkness that White Wolf created needs to be adhered to only because it is >such a cool world. Indeed. You make reference to storyline changes revealed in the clan novels. I'd just note that the clan novels are not components for any game but are fiction set in the common background. As such, they are even more applicable to VTES than to VTM. In the RPG, a storyteller would be expected to take the story in his own direction. In the CCG, there is no such freedom and so it seems obvious that it should be based on the canonical storyline rather than a storyline of its own. >The changes in the meta-storyline that White Wolf has recently >instituted, such as the Gangrel leaving the Camarilla >(and now apparently some Assamites have joined it!) >are interesting and definitely create possibilities for the cards. Gangrel membership of the Camarilla is not defined by the cards but by the rulebook. As and when a new rulebook appears, it could update the clan's status accordingly. Andrew

On 22 Dec 2000 07:46:23 GMT, Gomi no Sensei wrote: >Other than Setite and the other one by Kathleen Ryan (Ravnos, I think?), which >are excellent, the novels (up to 11 -- still haven't read Tremere and >Nosferatu) are pretty pedestrian, with some real garbage by Gherbod Fleming. What's your benchmark here? I made the mistake of buying the first Magic novel (for the promo card) and it was appallingly bad. I've flipped through the Lucita clan novel but it didn't grab me. What about the non-WoD fiction like Anne Rice? Andrew

In article <5ECB796676E0F923.54940A5B...@lp.airnews.net>, [ quoted text not captured ] That's only true for older sets. At some point (AH or DS, perhaps) Camarilla vampires had "Camarilla" printed on the cards. At least that's what the SW rulebook implies - no cards handy to check at the moment. Tom [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] If you let WoD "reality" involve into the game this way, a Brujah Antitribu with a Writ of Acceptance should be considered a Brujah, getting kicked out of the Amusement Park HG and forced to leave his Sword of Judgment hat home... or Lucita (independent Lasombra) would then be Lasombra Antitribu, since she愀 not part of the Sabbat... :-)

On Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:08:38 +0000, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: >Gangrel membership of the Camarilla is not defined by the cards but by >the rulebook. As and when a new rulebook appears, it could update the >clan's status accordingly. *cough* The Gangrel vampires who say "Justicar", "Prince", and "Primogen" on them really sort of indicate that the Gangrel are Camarilla, I think. Not to mention the "Gangrel Justicar" card itself. If the Gangrel were to leave the Camarilla in the game, then it would need to be in the form of a Master card that required a ready Gangrel; for PURE form's sake, it ought to require that you control the Gangrel Justicar, since Xaviar was the one making that decision in the clan novels. Not that there's anything good enough on the Independent side of things right now to make ANYONE want to dump access to the Traditions in-game... meaning that having the Gangrel leave is sort of silly, but you could print the card up and waste a slot in an expansion, I suppose. -- Derek Goon-of-the-Month club member

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > *cough* The Gangrel vampires who say "Justicar", "Prince", and > "Primogen" on them really sort of indicate that the Gangrel are > Camarilla, I think. Good point. > Not that there's anything good enough on the Independent side of > things right now to make ANYONE want to dump access to the Traditions > in-game... meaning that having the Gangrel leave is sort of silly, but > you could print the card up and waste a slot in an expansion, I > suppose. I stymied Dave's Gangrel Claws deck the other week by using Elysium. Seceding from the Camarilla would be a way round that. Andrew [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <3A42A924...@club-internet.fr>, Denis Tulbent <dtul...@club-internet.fr> writes >I do agree on this peculiar point. But your dismissing of the WoD as >irrelevant in V:tES is innacceptable to me. This game is based on the WoD, >and its mood should reflect the whole WoD pattern. The only thing you can and should assume any player has knowledge of is the rules. If you start assuming that players also know the details of the WoD backstory, even though that has never been released in any form of V:TES product, you start introducing even more problems for those who work simply on the rules. People who do not have access to large amounts of V:tM material, to work such things out, would be denied from being able to predict the outcome of any given situation. If you only use the game rules, no player is adversely discriminated against. If they know the rules of the game, they know the rules of the game. No other information required. -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D "It's hard to carry on when you feel all alone. Now I've swung back down again, it's worse than it was before. If I hadn't seen such riches I could live with being poor." - James, "Sit Down"

In article <vpr64tgi366nqd5d0...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes >Not that there's anything good enough on the Independent side of >things right now to make ANYONE want to dump access to the Traditions >in-game... meaning that having the Gangrel leave is sort of silly, but >you could print the card up and waste a slot in an expansion, I >suppose. It might, however, make a good promo *only* card, IMHO. A cool card with interesting flavour but which *isn't* killer. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <DD5DA4BDD3EA269C.6BBFEB6A...@lp.airnews.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] 'Vampire authors' Anne Rice: Garbage Poppy Z. Brite: Wretched garbage Kim Newman: Adequate, if you have a high tolerance for tedium Steven Brust: In general, good to very good. At the top of his form, superlative. Only one vampire book though. Other authors: Clark Ashton Smith: Criminally underrated Mervyn Peake: Interesting, albeit a bit of a slog to get started. James Stoddard: Excellent debut, worth watching Susan R. Matthews: Amazing characterisation. gomi -- PART II: WHAT DOSE DIRECT X 8.00 HAEV THAT TEH OTHARS DIDANT NOT INCLUDE? many things, stuped!!! but they dont work -Jeff K.