Khobar Towers (from Monger)
Type(s): Master
Clan(s): Followers of Set
Pool Cost: 2
Rarity: Rare
Card Text:
Unique Location
Tap during your untap phase to remove a ready minion you control from
the game and gain X pool, where X is the capacity of that vampire or
the cost of that ally.
Clarifications and Rulings
X is the pool cost or the blood cost of the ally, as appropriate. [RTR
20020501]
From the clarification, it looks like this card would be pretty good
with Shambling Hordes.
Crypt: 20 vamps (use multiples), mainly of obf / nec setites, a copy
or two of Pochtli & Carlotta.
several Effective Management - about 8?
several Khobar Towers - 6?
Hordes module
Small Serpentis Module
Obf galore
Plan: Every turn, make 4 transfers to a vampire. Get tons of Hordes.
Then, instead of bothering with blood gain, trade your empty vamps in
for new ones, via the towers. Similarly, when the Hordes get down to 1
life, cash them in for pool. I guess the other Master slots could go
to Fame, Society of Leopold, rude stuff like that. Discard would
mostly be the sacraficial allies, and excess copies of Khobar Towers.
Pretty simple, really.
Why hasn't it been done before? The only drawbacks I can see is that
you *really* need a tower by about turn 5, and you are vulnerable to
early rush (like pot weenies).
Come to think of it, you could also use Tower of London to, in effect,
gain 4 pool per recruit action. Cool bananas! This would be to
Shambler decks what Minion Tap / Voter Cap is to vote decks.
Just like Hollowboy was already taken.. so was the concept of this
deck.. A friend of mine made a deck mainly Nepata and the Baron
(another pool gain trick involving sargon fragment).. and he just
brings out hordes after hordes and sacrifice them when he doesn't need
them.. don't bother with waiting for your vampires to go empty.. when
ppl see the tower.. they usually try to burn or knock your vampires to
torpor... last i saw.. he brought out 7 vamps and at least 6 hordes at
the end game.. so.. sorry, not a new concept.. and oh ya.. he had a
tower of london too.. but he took it out because getting a third clan
thing was just too much work that wasn't efficient... Oh, and the name
of that deck, which I thought should've been.. was the Twin Towers..
but he didn't want it, and after taking Tower of London out.. doesn't
make difference anyways :)
icantbelievehollow...@hotmail.com (Hollowboy) wrote in message news:<614f2a39.03061...@posting.google.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <614f2a39.03061...@posting.google.com>,
icantbelievehollow...@hotmail.com (Hollowboy) mumbled
something about:
>Why hasn't it been done before? The only drawbacks I can see is that
>you *really* need a tower by about turn 5, and you are vulnerable to
>early rush (like pot weenies).
You're also vulnerable to:
stealth bleed
bruise bleed
any kind of vote
intercept
and you don't have a way to oust, because your Hordes don't have any
bleed, so you HAVE to keep your vampires around instead of Crowbarring
them.
While nuking your Hordes via Crowbar is not all THAT bad a plan, it
isn't anywhere near as powerful as you've made it out to be here. =)
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.
psydu...@hotmail.com (DeistMutts) wrote in message news:<a3baa2e3.03061...@posting.google.com>...
> Just like Hollowboy was already taken.. so was the concept of this
> deck.. A friend of mine made a deck mainly Nepata and the Baron
> (another pool gain trick involving sargon fragment).. and he just
> brings out hordes after hordes and sacrifice them when he doesn't need
> them.. don't bother with waiting for your vampires to go empty.. when
> ppl see the tower.. they usually try to burn or knock your vampires to
> torpor... last i saw.. he brought out 7 vamps and at least 6 hordes at
> the end game.. so.. sorry, not a new concept.. and oh ya.. he had a
> tower of london too.. but he took it out because getting a third clan
> thing was just too much work that wasn't efficient... Oh, and the name
> of that deck, which I thought should've been.. was the Twin Towers..
> but he didn't want it, and after taking Tower of London out.. doesn't
> make difference anyways :)
Thanks for the response. I'm just glad to know it works.
Ive been musing on ways to make this easier (not require so much
trading): I think it would be good to base it on Nesha and Pochtli,
use Pochtli as the prime Horde guy, and go for a mix of the Towers and
Golconda, just so I don't have to trade so insanely for a big stack of
spooky apartment buildings. Obf Nec, a sprinkle of Ser and two clans
is not too difficult to achieve, methinks.
yeah, s&b is one major headache against this deck.. although
necromancy does have some intercepts.. as for votes.. nothing you can
do except to make your shambling hordes go 'argh!!! brains from
voters!!!' As for ousting.. don't think that's a problem if you have
setites... stealth bleed.. the Khobar Tower thing is something to keep
you going unless you use form of corruption to piss your prey off..
never was a huge blood gain, but enough of an effect like a blood
doll.. powerful? no decks are powerful.. even the powerful ones.. cuz
once they're out, everyone knows.. can we say 'gangbang' ?
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<2n64fvk7mj1p726h3...@4ax.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Original post:
Crypt: 20 vamps (use multiples), mainly of obf / nec setites, a copy
or two of Pochtli & Carlotta.
several Effective Management - about 8?
several Khobar Towers - 6?
Hordes module
Small Serpentis Module
Obf galore
> You're also vulnerable to:>
> stealth bleed
> bruise bleed
> any kind of vote
> intercept
>
Stealth bleed yes. Vote, yes. But no more so than any horde deck.
And a few other things would screw it: Location hosers, and anything
that ousts fast, really. I guess I see tons of combat, and not much
sleaze where I play, so that's what I thought of.
Bruise bleed? Don't see a vulnerability there... the idea is to have
all these Hordes coming out, see, and Hordes make *great* expendable
blockers. It's hard to actually killing one when it's on 4 and not
take any damage yourself - and not easily repeatable (except corner
case stuff, like Jacko with a .44, or, um, someone with 3 wolf
companions and 4 Guardian angels). Plus, if the bruiser only damages
the Horde (one pop with .44 or gate) it's damaged, yes, but you don't
care, cos its still good for the stinky pool gain :-)
Intercept? See the bit above where I wrote "Obf galore" Also: Make the
best interceptor famous and rush with hordes, or save up your stealth
and tempt them.
> and you don't have a way to oust, because your Hordes don't have any
> bleed, so you HAVE to keep your vampires around instead of Crowbarring
> them.
>
I was thinking that the Serpentis module would sort that - bleed with
other people's vampires. And there is Fame for ousting too.
> While nuking your Hordes via Crowbar is not all THAT bad a plan, it
> isn't anywhere near as powerful as you've made it out to be here. =)
Yeah, I'm already cooling off the idea. Now im thinking of doing it
rather more low-key: basically building an Obf/Nec deck, and then
inserting Khobar / Serpentis as a relatively small module. Maybe:
Crypt: The Baron, Pochtli as main vamps
Neshi / Sarrasine as support
3 Khobar, 3 Golconda (no blood gain, just pop them)
Big Hordes module
Plenty of Obf
some deflections / anti vote?
5-10 temptation and form of corruption
Lots of free master slots for + influence (Dreams, Info Highway)
In message <614f2a39.03061...@posting.google.com>, Hollowboy
<icantbelievehollow...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> You're also vulnerable to:
>>
>> stealth bleed
>> bruise bleed
>> any kind of vote
>> intercept
>>>Stealth bleed yes. Vote, yes. But no more so than any horde deck.
Actually, quite possibly a fair bit more so.
Obviously, you can go for Charisma etc., to try and bring the cost of
the Hordes down but those generally aren't going to do that much.
Especially not if you're exploding your own vampires.
As a result, the most obvious form of vote defence (Delaying Tactics)
may be difficult to afford, and the more recent form of vote defence
(Mob Rule) may be something you can ill afford - either to play
yourself, or to participate in when it comes out.
>Bruise bleed? Don't see a vulnerability there... the idea is to have
>all these Hordes coming out, see, and Hordes make *great* expendable
>blockers.
Not so great.
If the idea of the deck is to blow them up when they hit one life, it
only takes a couple of smacks to hit them.
>It's hard to actually killing one when it's on 4 and not
>take any damage yourself
Most combat-ive (as opposed to combat) decks are quite happy taking some
damage. And will often take a fair few Taste of Vitae in with them -
not un-useful in a bruise/bleed environment, to get the blood to play
Govern the Unaligned and Conditioning back, say.
Possibly more importantly, a number of decks can start to use guns for
that. There's lots of Celerity around. Bleed, block, maneuver, gun,
blur. The Toreador have CEL/PRE, and a smattering of Dominate, for
instance.
>- and not easily repeatable (except corner
>case stuff, like Jacko with a .44, or, um, someone with 3 wolf
>companions and 4 Guardian angels).
That well known corner case of maneuver and/or additional strikes.
Never seen. The Tremere never try to go to range to steal blood. (And
once they've stolen your blood, that's hand damage you're down when they
press...)
>Yeah, I'm already cooling off the idea. Now im thinking of doing it
>rather more low-key: basically building an Obf/Nec deck, and then
>inserting Khobar / Serpentis as a relatively small module. Maybe:
>
>Crypt: The Baron, Pochtli as main vamps
>Neshi / Sarrasine as support
>3 Khobar, 3 Golconda (no blood gain, just pop them)
>Big Hordes module
>Plenty of Obf
>some deflections / anti vote?
>5-10 temptation and form of corruption
>
>Lots of free master slots for + influence (Dreams, Info Highway)
Having "main vamps" makes very tempting rush targets. Even if you can
Khobar them, the deck can be shut down.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D
[ quoted text not captured ]
FYI, it's been ruled that you gain 0 if you sack the shambling hordes to
the khobar towers...
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3C5943E5.5F3B5
BD1%40white-wolf.com
In the same thread it was said it was a ruling given in a private
email... The text on Khobar towers is the same though... Shouldn't it
be changed?
--
Direct access to this group with http://web2news.comhttp://web2news.com/?rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
<snipped - not having vote / stealth bleed defence, blood costs>
> As a result, the most obvious form of vote defence (Delaying Tactics)
> may be difficult to afford, and the more recent form of vote defence
> (Mob Rule) may be something you can ill afford - either to play
> yourself, or to participate in when it comes out.
>
Sure. And this is where you could have given some advice, if you had a
single positive thing to say. Like: why not include dom weenies, to
play deflections and delaying tactics.
>
> >Bruise bleed? Don't see a vulnerability there... the idea is to have
> >all these Hordes coming out, see, and Hordes make *great* expendable
> >blockers.
>
> Not so great.
>
> If the idea of the deck is to blow them up when they hit one life, it
> only takes a couple of smacks to hit them.
>
And I suppose it only takes a couple of hits to smack them. What are
you talking about?
>
> >It's hard to actually killing one when it's on 4 and not
> >take any damage yourself
>
> Most combat-ive (as opposed to combat) decks are quite happy taking some
> damage. And will often take a fair few Taste of Vitae in with them -
> not un-useful in a bruise/bleed environment, to get the blood to play
> Govern the Unaligned and Conditioning back, say.
>
Taste is fine in bruise bleed decks. But it doesn't work on allies, so
if that's what they are relying on, Hordes are going to be a great
defence.
> Possibly more importantly, a number of decks can start to use guns for
> that. There's lots of Celerity around. Bleed, block, maneuver, gun,
> blur. The Toreador have CEL/PRE, and a smattering of Dominate, for
> instance.
>
There might be a lot of Celerity and guns around where you play. I
play in Melbourne, 'fortitude city', and I don't often see guns, and
only a little celerity.
The last time I saw a Toreador, it was Francois getting torn to tiny
bits every round of a tournament by Beast and friends, who were,
(appropriately enough) playing Drawing out the Beast and stacks of
potence. That sort of thing happens a lot, here. It has been several
years since I saw a successful Toreador deck.
>
> >- and not easily repeatable (except corner
> >case stuff, like Jacko with a .44, or, um, someone with 3 wolf
> >companions and 4 Guardian angels).
>
> That well known corner case of maneuver and/or additional strikes.
> Never seen. The Tremere never try to go to range to steal blood. (And
> once they've stolen your blood, that's hand damage you're down when they
> press...)
Think about that some more. Apportation, Theft, press, then hit for
two with something (whilst being punched for two, negating the first
round Theft). That's a 4-card combo to take out 1 Shambler.
Before you snipped it, my post said "It's hard to actually killing one
when it's on 4 and not take any damage yourself - and not easily
repeatable (except corner case stuff, like Jacko with a .44, or, um,
someone with 3 wolf
companions and 4 Guardian angels)."
I was specifying that the only *easily repeatable* ways to kill a
horde are quite corner case.
Pulling off a tremere 4-card combo once or twice each turn is *not*
easily repeatable.
Be more careful where you point that sarcasm :-)
>
> >Yeah, I'm already cooling off the idea. Now im thinking of doing it
> >rather more low-key: basically building an Obf/Nec deck, and then
> >inserting Khobar / Serpentis as a relatively small module. Maybe:
> >
> >Crypt: The Baron, Pochtli as main vamps
> >Neshi / Sarrasine as support
> >3 Khobar, 3 Golconda (no blood gain, just pop them)
> >Big Hordes module
> >Plenty of Obf
> >some deflections / anti vote?
> >5-10 temptation and form of corruption
> >
> >Lots of free master slots for + influence (Dreams, Info Highway)
>
> Having "main vamps" makes very tempting rush targets. Even if you can
> Khobar them, the deck can be shut down.
You wouldn't have to be a very careful reader to notice that I said
"I'm already cooling off the idea", and that I thought that (apart
from rush combat) there were several ways the deck could be hosed:
"And a few other things would screw it: Location hosers, and anything
that ousts fast, really"
So what's the point of the sarcasm, the sniping, and trying to
convince me that the deck can be shut down? I already knew this, and I
can't imagine how anyone else is meant to benefit from your comments.
What would be nice, is some positive comments, advice, whatever.