Bloodlines, 6 months later... (long)

So, we now have had the time to analyse the impact of the various Bloodlines and other cards coming with it. This is a personnal analyse, but I also take into consideration the opinions of my playmates and of the people on the francophone newsgroup (news://news.zoo-logique.org/VTES-francophone) My general feeling over Bloodlines are : - some bloodlines have been much better designed than others - the Scarce concept works well enough, but is a very big restriction, not always adapted to the balance of powers. - the Dual Discipline concept is a win ! - The Split Discipline concept is a very good idea, but we sometimes see very strange mixes (Than / Pre ???). - Over all, the Bloodlines, as announced, are very hard to play by themselves, but can complement nicely some other lineages ; once again, some mix in better than some others. - On the whole, they add a few nice touches to existing clans. The Biggest Winner of all existing Clans is FoS IMHO, because between the Baali and the Trujahs, they gain several new ways to win (as if they needed them after Final Nights). The "no stealth" voters (Ventrue and Toreador) have gained a lot recently, with Creepshow Casino in FN and now with the Daughters (cf later). The Giovanni have won some, although mixes are not as obvious or easy to play as one could have hoped / figured : the Nagaraja are better played with some Kyasid and a few small Gios, they share only Nec with the Harbingers (and too few Gios have For), not to speak of the Samedi. And the Lasombra, who should have gotten a big hand from the Kyasid, are not in much better shape than before (see arguments below). The Trujahs are not mixeable effeciently with big Brujahs or !Brujahs, so they are usually played with weenie potence, and I yet have to make my opinion on whether Iron Will is a big help for them or not. - Finally, Bloodlines are really designed to be played in a No Limit environment, and my friends who still play 3 or 4 CL can't find it useful, as most decks will rely on 2 or 3 really interesting and mixeable new cards (not to mention that we now have 7 different CE in PRE, and only 1 IG), so whether this was intentional or not, BL adds to the NCL argument... - Never have the cards : Ian Forrestal, Infernal Pact, Infernal Familiar, Clan Impersonation, been so much looked for - The Clan Impersonation / Snaguine Instruction "combo" is an expensive one, in blood and actions, and some bloodlines are condemned to fail their "mix well" without any satisfying solution, too bad ! The Sanguine Instruction card is, in fact, much better in one-clan decks than in mixed bloodlines... And now, Bloodlines Clan by Clan (more details on the ones I played extensively, of course, this is subjective...) : - Ahrimanes : I have not played them, and haven't seen them played once !! Some people seem to have made winner decks with them, how I do not know. Weird mix, some good cards, but I'll let people who know them better (Pierre ?) comment. - Baali : hard to play they are ; but when one finds way to compensate their main weakness, either with the Presence "get pool back" bleeds or cards like Contagion, they seem to devastate, due to very good cards and minions ; still, not an easy Clan to play with Setite, alone on their own !! - Blood Brothers : one of the few BL that can really stand on its own !! They can fight effectively, although Cel / Pot is more aggressive IMO than For / Pot ; they have plenty good cards, although what works elsewhere (lots of Unwholesome) doesn't work here, as always, because of the strong intercept / fortitude metagame. And I must say I am still not convinced by the 2 circles thing : it is a pity that no card allows for an interesting mix, this is not a Clan of 10 vampires but really 2 separate Clans of 5 ; it would have been interesting to be able to take profit from SOME powers even with mixed circles. Well, still a nice clan on the whole, a new edge in fighting (and then some). - Daughters of Cacophony : as I've said before, a nice addition for the voters. Very mixeable with the Ventrue, much less with the Tores (nice for the Cel card, but then no For, no Aus for the girls...). Their handicaps concerning Intercept makes them near impossible to play by themselves. Soem good cards (Siren's Lure, Echo of Harmonies...). I yet have to decide if Art's Traumatic Essence is among them. The Choir strategy could have been interesting, but it seems totally uneffective, all because of that one small line : burn this card during your influence phase (that and the number of Daughters it would require, so you can be sure you have no intercept at all...). On the vampire side, Angela Preston is enormous, to the point that I wonder what is Gaël's use in comparison (Chimerstry, come ooooon !!) ; and of course, the Sabbat gets the worst deal (Muse, as beautiful as she can be, won't be a great help by herself), and the Camarilla the best one. As if it needed any... - Gargoyle : I yet have to see a good Gargoyles deck ; some of them have been used succesfully in some !Ventrue (well, more like : Lazvé) decks, and I know some people have made good decks but I still don't know the recipe. Some good vampires, a few good cards, and very good allies / retainers. The weird "no discipline" flight, which adds to the difficulty of mixing them (not even Ian can learn it), not a very smart move IMO. And did I mention the 4 Camarilla slaves, 2 Independents, and 2 Sabbat (one of which isn't a Slave), meaning that 3 can be used by Independent vampires, 4 by Sabbat Tremere, and up to 7 by Camarilla Tremere !!! Yeah, sure, the Camarilla needed some more help, everyone knows it was underpowered, as we will soon see once more... - Harbingers of Skulls : by themselves, they seldom win (even Lasombra's voting deck wouldn't stand a chance here, where each of its moves would be intercepted) ; I saw a nice Harbingers wall / Pulled fangs deck, but it wasn't an easy one to pull (the trick, not the fang). They add a new strategy to the game, although for many people it is not a "fair" one, as it doesn't rely on strategy but rather on spoiling any deck's careful planning. Usually, the Harbingers take every chance of winning away from their prey, making their grand'prey very strong, and then they die. I've seen some nice mixes with !Ventrue, though. And I'm still trying a few Matthias versions. Martyr's Resilience makes them the obvious Shambling Horders, but once more Necro is much more effective on directed actions than on undirected, and if you don't get any Horde going all you have left is the dreaded Slaughterhouses... Their worst enemy is Arika as a predator (no Slaughter !!), so if they can vote and don't use Pulses, they should get their hands on an Justicar Retribution or two, just in case... - Kiasyd : I loved them before they even got out ; of course, I was disapointed. They have two wonderful vampires : Julia Prima, the less expensive (!) vampire with DOM / OBT, and her 2 specials, and Bartolomew, with his wonderful special. The rest is not as good : we have Marconius, yet another 9 Cap archbishop usable in a Lasombra deck, but who can't use the very useful and strong Lasombra masters : Power Structure (for votes) and Elysian Fields (for votes, bleed, equip with a Black Metamorphosis, whatever) ; Kassiym is Aurora's brother if you want to try a OBT / For deck, except he doesn't have Pot, and his special is cornercase (is it made to help Mitchell ?!). Beatrice is great in a Nagaraja deck, out of place everywhere alse. That is the Kyasid's main problem : 4 out of 5 have Obt, 3 have AUs, 2 of which have Nec. I would have hoped for one more among them possessing Nec and Obt (maybe OBT / Nec, as opposed to Bart), and a Nec / Myt card, and then many, many new things would have been possible ; ot if the Obt / Nec guy(s) shared a little Pot, or even Obf, they could have been the "missing link" between the Lasombra and Giovanni, who share 2 disciplines and still are way too hard to mix. I still hope for some surprises in extensions to come, but sadly they don't mix well as of now. The cards : Stone Travel is without any doubt the best of all !! Better even then Shroud of Absence (although not for the Lasombra), and it's a common !! Close second comes Aura Absorption, the counterpart of Spectral Divination, for free ! Riddle Phantastique is a pale copy of Sensory Depravation, but can have its uses ; Basilisk's touch is a very, very hard one to pull off, I yet have to see it succeed ; Folderol is nice when combined with TC, and obviously was intended for Bart. Absorb the Mind gives a dodge with Dom, great, but the other uses are quite dispensable ; Earth Swords would be nice in a deck with many manoeuvers ; and we now get to the worst part : Darkling Trickery. A flash in basic could be nice, but who wants to trade R1s for it ? The Obt use is preposterous (either you use Obt CE or you want to press to continue !!) and the MYT use is quite cornercase. The only real manoeuver available in Obt is already (very) rare, Darkness Within has it in sup, Shadow Strike costs one and doesn't let you chose your strike (and is better used with some Pot like TS or Fists of Death), so why not a "Obt : Manoeuver, Myt : Manoeuver or press, MYT : Manoeuver with an optional press" instead ?! Crappy card. Nagaraja : the only Scarce clan not having a unique discipline. They do have nice specials, though. Not an ideal discipline mix in itself, I found them useful mainly in Bart decks. The interests of playing them with all the Aus Gios seem dim, as most are costly (8, 9, 10; 11 !!) and much less interesting, so usually only Gillespi seems worth it to me, and a little Isabel, plus of course Beatrice l'Angou. Nuff said. - Salubri : now, we have here without any doubt THE best Bloodlines vampire : MATTHIAS (hurrays, applause...). The discipline is great in sup, with cards like Spirit Marionette (whole new strategy) or Renewed Vigor (alternative to 5th tradition available even to Sabbat - too bad no !Salubri has Obe...), or the incerdible Repulsion, not to mention the Master : Sight Beyond Sight ; I'm still more reserved about vitae block (who apart from Dominique could use the Ani version ??), Unburdening the Bestial Soul, despite its great illustration (the "younger vampire" part ruins it all, and it's quite expensive...), and I yet have to find what allies apart from Shamblings (who can't get life back) could be useful and mixeable enough to justify the extensive use of Panacea, inf Obe Renewed, or Resurrection (usable with the Shamblings, if you have another one to burn). Matthias mixes very well with the Harbingers, the others with the !Ventrue or special "guest stars" decks (I played them with Obf and they killed !! They also liked Muaziz's company...), only regret is Miriam Benyona, with Obe and a very mild special. But Matthias rules !!! - Salubri antitribu : small, expensive, expensive and small ; only one of them has all their disciplines, and not even in sup !! But they do have some good cards, and the decks can work, so maybe they don't need any more... - Samedi : "Yet another failed combat deck", said someone. Sadly, I have to agree : they fall to CE, and as nobody wants / needs to block them, the Hidden Lurkers are useless most of the time. Their greatest card, Withering, falls to Dodge / CE, so all they can hope for is to detroy some For using guys. Some have Cel or nice weapons specials, one has Qui, but I yet have to see any working combination of all these aspects. And I tried the WIthering / Shambling Hordes angle, it was nice when it worked, meaning : not against CEs. Unre could have been judged very useful, as Reg also has Aus, but Unre can't even use the really interesting version of Withering, so, well... Also, some very useless cards (who cares if they can't block Samedi ?), and the weirdest split-discipline of all (Pre / Than on the very mildly interesting Putrefaction...). Too bad, could have been nice. Oh, and The Baron is great. Just not in the right Clan... - The Trujahs : Temporis is über-cool and very powerful. Maybe the "no cel" limitation was important for game balance, but then it makes mixing with other brujahs very improbable, and that's a pity. I would have liked, at least, some Tem / Cel cards, as a matter of fact I think everyone expected them !! Result is : they mix very, very well with the Setites, Krassimir is a nice addition in a Giovanni Bruise'n'bleed (or maybe even without Pot, not sure yet if it's as effective), and Nu seems to be mainly used with lots of Pot weenies as support. All in all, Tem works very well but is very expensive, so one has to compensate. The best card is without any possible contest Domaine of Evernight, with its 3 very good and very different uses, and the worst one has to be Cio's Kiss (very cornercase, and the Lasombra's Political Seizurers will prefer the Thanks for the Donation combo) ; before it came out, everyone thought Rewind Time was a must, but now I'm not so sure. Anyway, a great Clan, just not very mixeable, and once more a new asset for the damned Setites, Caine get their serpentine souls (I should know, I play one in LRPG !! ;-) As for the "non-bloodlines" cards, the dual disciplines are a very nice addition, the best being maybe Shroud of Absence or Read the Wind, or... Well, there are lots of them !! The hardest to use may be the Aus / Qui one... So, all in all, my conclusions on Bloodlines : a nice extension, with many mistakes or pitfalls, but some really new possibilities ; some Clans are pretty useless or cornercase, some have a great future ahead of them, we shall see which ones completely disappear in face of future extensions and which ones don't. I sure hope, and many friends confided the same to me, that future extensions will add some help for some of the Bloodlines who need it the most... Yours, -- Orfeo Giovanni, the Traitor 8 Cap, Sabbat DOM / OBT / NEC / Pot / Obf Orfeo gets -1 intercept against Lasombra ; + 1 bleed against the controller of any ready Giovanni.

> This is a personnal analyse, but I also take into consideration the opinions > of my playmates and of the people on the francophone newsgroup > (news://news.zoo-logique.org/VTES-francophone) > > My general feeling over Bloodlines are : > > - some bloodlines have been much better designed than others Agree > - the Scarce concept works well enough, but is a very big restriction, not > always adapted to the balance of powers. Disagree > - the Dual Discipline concept is a win ! Agree > - The Split Discipline concept is a very good idea, but we sometimes see > very strange mixes (Than / Pre ???). Agree > - Over all, the Bloodlines, as announced, are very hard to play by > themselves, but can complement nicely some other lineages ; once again, some > mix in better than some others. Disagree. I have seen recently a very good Ahrimanes deck, 3 superb Daughter of Cack decks, a good Salubri deck, a good Trujah deck, and some terrifying Blood Brothers decks. Only 2 of these you would expect to stand up on their own. > - On the whole, they add a few nice touches to existing clans. The Biggest > Winner of all existing Clans is FoS IMHO, because between the Baali and the > Trujahs, they gain several new ways to win (as if they needed them after > Final Nights). Disagree. Every Baali effort I have seen has fallen over. Only Synesios is good with the Setites, and he is a bit pricy compared to someone like Kethemos. The "no stealth" voters (Ventrue and Toreador) have gained a > lot recently, with Creepshow Casino in FN and now with the Daughters (cf > later). Agree, but Creepshow was a FN card. Daughters of Cack is no biggie - the lack of sect or intercept or bounce potential often puts people off. The Giovanni have won some, although mixes are not as obvious or > easy to play as one could have hoped / figured : the Nagaraja are better > played with some Kyasid and a few small Gios, they share only Nec with the > Harbingers (and too few Gios have For), not to speak of the Samedi. And the > Lasombra, who should have gotten a big hand from the Kyasid, are not in much > better shape than before (see arguments below). Disagree with all this The Trujahs are not mixeable > effeciently with big Brujahs or !Brujahs, so they are usually played with > weenie potence, and I yet have to make my opinion on whether Iron Will is a > big help for them or not. > > - Finally, Bloodlines are really designed to be played in a No Limit > environment, and my friends who still play 3 or 4 CL can't find it useful, > as most decks will rely on 2 or 3 really interesting and mixeable new cards > (not to mention that we now have 7 different CE in PRE, and only 1 IG), so > whether this was intentional or not, BL adds to the NCL argument... > > - Never have the cards : Ian Forrestal, Infernal Pact, Infernal Familiar, > Clan Impersonation, been so much looked for Disagree. > - The Clan Impersonation / Snaguine Instruction "combo" is an expensive one, > in blood and actions, and some bloodlines are condemned to fail their "mix > well" without any satisfying solution, too bad ! The Sanguine Instruction > card is, in fact, much better in one-clan decks than in mixed bloodlines... Agree. <snip> Nice summaries. But you are missing some important points. Bloodlines isn't really about "clans". Bloodlines is more about individual vampires boulstering the mix and helping off key discipline spreads. How many times have you seen Matthieus lately? I'll wager a lot. Same for Le Din Zho (he allows a playable weenie Giovanni deck to WIN!). Same for Bartholemue (eh Matt?) and the Baron (via the Combo deck). In fact for every one "bloodlines clan" deck, I see 2 decks with a bloodlines vampire show up. > As for the "non-bloodlines" cards, the dual disciplines are a very nice > addition, the best being maybe Shroud of Absence or Read the Wind, or... > Well, there are lots of them !! The hardest to use may be the Aus / Qui > one... Draught of the Soul? Well, ask Todd Bannister - he claims he stacked about 8 up once! ;) > So, all in all, my conclusions on Bloodlines : > > a nice extension, with many mistakes or pitfalls, but some really new > possibilities ; some Clans are pretty useless or cornercase, some have a > great future ahead of them, we shall see which ones completely disappear in > face of future extensions and which ones don't. Hmmmm.... I think you underestimate the impact it has had on the game. In this country, 90% of decks now have at least one Bloodlines card in. I would go so far as to say about 40% of decks currently have a theme or strategy based purely around Bloodlines cards. My personal belief is at this juncture, the Temporis is the least popular discipline (lots of cards, but only 3 BIG vampires to use them), Samedi are the least workable as a "Clan", and Daughters of Cack got the worst cards to actually play with. Best of class are, surprisingly, Obeah, the Ahrimanes, and the rare new card - Saguine Instruction is the stand out card for the set by a mile. > I sure hope, and many friends confided the same to me, that future > extensions will add some help for some of the Bloodlines who need it the > most... I doubt we will see much more bloodlines type cards. Maybe another card for each in the Anarchs if you're lucky, but this wasn't a "set": it was a bit of fun. No "Game Changing" cards. No broken strategies. Just fun. DH

First of all, thanks for your comments. I'll snip the "agree" parts, as there is nothing to argue about when we think the same... ;-) > > - the Scarce concept works well enough, but is a very big restriction, not > > always adapted to the balance of powers. > > Disagree So I gather that you think all Scarce vampires needed that limitation ? > > - Over all, the Bloodlines, as announced, are very hard to play by > > themselves, but can complement nicely some other lineages ; once again, some > > mix in better than some others. > > Disagree. I have seen recently a very good Ahrimanes deck, 3 superb > Daughter of Cack decks, a good Salubri deck, a good Trujah deck, and > some terrifying Blood Brothers decks. Only 2 of these you would expect > to stand up on their own. All right. I didn't say it was impossible, but quite hard. Did the Salubri and Trujahs include no other vampire ? I guess both could work, because the Salubri have many ways to gain blood back, and the Trujahs can have many actions (and gain blood back by hunting with a little Razor or location help...) so why not, I was giving it some thougts lately. Now, the Daughters working all by themselves, I'd like to see it, especially if they have some bleeders in the back. And over all, I must say I'm not too hot about having 5 or less different vampires in my crypt... > > - On the whole, they add a few nice touches to existing clans. The Biggest > > Winner of all existing Clans is FoS IMHO, because between the Baali and the > > Trujahs, they gain several new ways to win (as if they needed them after > > Final Nights). > > Disagree. Every Baali effort I have seen has fallen over. I did say they were hard to play. But some people succeeded. And anyway, they're even more unplayable by themselves, or with any other clan. Only > Synesios is good with the Setites, and he is a bit pricy compared to > someone like Kethemos. But he can add nice touches, if only with the two Ser / Tem, the two Pre / Tem and the two Obf / Tem cards, and these offer whole new possibilities to the Setites (equip for half or no cost, among other things). > The "no stealth" voters (Ventrue and Toreador) have gained a > > lot recently, with Creepshow Casino in FN and now with the Daughters (cf > > later). > > Agree, but Creepshow was a FN card. Yes, I did mention it. Daughters of Cack is no biggie - > the lack of sect or intercept or bounce potential often puts people > off. They were conceived to help these voters, but fact is : IMO they shouldn't have been given all these intercept problems, as you say the sect thing is enough already. > The Giovanni have won some, although mixes are not as obvious or > > easy to play as one could have hoped / figured : the Nagaraja are better > > played with some Kyasid and a few small Gios, they share only Nec with the > > Harbingers (and too few Gios have For), not to speak of the Samedi. And the > > Lasombra, who should have gotten a big hand from the Kyasid, are not in much > > better shape than before (see arguments below). > > Disagree with all this Please care to develop. > > - Never have the cards : Ian Forrestal, Infernal Pact, Infernal Familiar, > > Clan Impersonation, been so much looked for > > Disagree. Really ? Have you been on the Succubus lately ? The Infernal P & F have always been wanted, but I think they took a rise ; I'm pretty sure Ian Forestal has never been more popular than right now ; and who wanted to Clan Impersonate before ? Me, because of some silly combo idea, maybe you, and then who else ? ;-) > Nice summaries. Thank you. > But you are missing some important points. Bloodlines > isn't really about "clans". Bloodlines is more about individual > vampires boulstering the mix and helping off key discipline spreads. You are right to point this out, I didn't miss it but forgot to mention it. And that's a big problem IMO : only a few vampires in each clan permit this sort of mixes, as you yourselve assert right here : > How many times have you seen Matthieus lately? I'll wager a lot. Same > for Le Din Zho (he allows a playable weenie Giovanni deck to WIN!). > Same for Bartholemue (eh Matt?) and the Baron (via the Combo deck). In > fact for every one "bloodlines clan" deck, I see 2 decks with a > bloodlines vampire show up. So, if that had been the initial goal, we would have seen many weird-but-useful mixes, as will probably be the case with The Anarchs (they can also create some Caitiff disciplines, but I don't feel the need for this, the game is getting complex enough for most players). But the release did include some Clans, and if only the Baron is interesting (and for a reason I'd bet the conceptors didn't think about, as the Soul Gem combo is kind of far fetched...), why add 5 other vampires ? Of course, some of them can find their places elsewhere (Jack Dawson as an Assamite ??), but I'm sure you'll get my meaning. So, what I want to say is : Bloodlines succeeded in only part of its goal if only a few individual vampires are really worth it. But it does allow new discipline spreads (still, some could have been a little better thought, and you know which ones I'm talking about...). > > As for the "non-bloodlines" cards, the dual disciplines are a very nice > > addition, the best being maybe Shroud of Absence or Read the Wind, or... > > Well, there are lots of them !! The hardest to use may be the Aus / Qui > > one... > > Draught of the Soul? Well, ask Todd Bannister - he claims he stacked > about 8 up once! > > ;) OK, so I guess all these cards were a success !! (but then, isn't Todd an Assamite specialist ?). > > So, all in all, my conclusions on Bloodlines : > > > > a nice extension, with many mistakes or pitfalls, but some really new > > possibilities ; some Clans are pretty useless or cornercase, some have a > > great future ahead of them, we shall see which ones completely disappear in > > face of future extensions and which ones don't. > > Hmmmm.... I think you underestimate the impact it has had on the game. > In this country, 90% of decks now have at least one Bloodlines card > in. I would go so far as to say about 40% of decks currently have a > theme or strategy based purely around Bloodlines cards. Yes, so does it here. But we'll be able to judge that after the release of Camarilla, and I'm ready to bet that when the fashion wears off very few people will still be playing more than a few useful cards or vampires from Bloodlines in their decks (I know I still will...). > My personal belief is at this juncture, the Temporis is the least > popular discipline (lots of cards, but only 3 BIG vampires to use > them), Really ? Well, they are hard to play, and the scarcity doesn't help either, but I think all three of them have met some success... > Samedi are the least workable as a "Clan", I have to agree, their lack or intercept, redirect or CE counter makes them very, very hard to play. >and Daughters of > Cack got the worst cards to actually play with. My turn to disagree. Their two Operas are good, Siren's Lure is great, Madrigal is better than a Bribes combined with 2 votes (not to mention the only votes usable as reaction or modifier), Echo of Harmonies is great, and Concert Tour could be good if only the daughters were bigger or could use it on other vampires. Now, I'll have to grant you that Choir is a failure, Toreador's Bane is useless more often than not, Missing Voice is good only in sup so it only so-so, Tourette's Voice is a poor compensation of the girlies' weakness, and Art's Traumatic, well... But the Samedi have worst cards, Visceratika isn't the best discipline either (the allies cards are much better) and flight has good ones but is a mistake in itself IMO (who needs one more ability that no one else can use ?), and as I said I think the Kiasyd alternate between good and very bad cards ; at least, the daughter's Rares are good !! > Best of class are, surprisingly, Obeah, Yes. > the Ahrimanes, I'll have to take your word on that. > and the rare > new card - Saguine Instruction is the stand out card for the set by a > mile. Yes. > > I sure hope, and many friends confided the same to me, that future > > extensions will add some help for some of the Bloodlines who need it the > > most... > > I doubt we will see much more bloodlines type cards. Maybe another > card for each in the Anarchs if you're lucky, I'm afrfaid you're quite right. > but this wasn't a "set": > it was a bit of fun. No "Game Changing" cards. No broken strategies. > Just fun. Fun it is, and that's what count. But to me it IS a set, and there are some new strategies possible, if only because of the new discipline combinations. Thanks again for your comments, and happy huntings. Orpheus

"Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:<aflldd$74d$1...@wanadoo.fr>... > So, we now have had the time to analyse the impact of the various Bloodlines > and other cards coming with it. Cool, I was hoping someone will take a shot at discribing the post-bloodlines impact. I will snip the sections of your analysis dealing with the bloodlines that I have not yet seen played well. Also I apologise for the spelling in my posts. <snip> > - some bloodlines have been much better designed than others > definetly, the discipline cards more so then the vamps themselves. > - the Scarce concept works well enough, but is a very big restriction, not > always adapted to the balance of powers. > If it was meant to make playing the scarce clan as a "clan: deck difficult, then it was a succsess. In practice it means that people who want to use the rare discipline simply pick one of the scarce vampires and put in a bunch of copies of him/her. > - the Dual Discipline concept is a win ! > > - The Split Discipline concept is a very good idea, but we sometimes see > very strange mixes (Than / Pre ???). > both long overdue > - Over all, the Bloodlines, as announced, are very hard to play by > themselves, but can complement nicely some other lineages ; once again, some > mix in better than some others. I disagree, most decks heavily bloodlines that I have seen either focus entierly on the bloodline (along with some fillers - either weenies or votes), or just threw in 1-2 of the new vamps in an existing deck. The one exception that I have seen/played is the daughters/ventrue mix. <snip> > - Finally, Bloodlines are really designed to be played in a No Limit > environment, and my friends who still play 3 or 4 CL can't find it useful, > as most decks will rely on 2 or 3 really interesting and mixeable new cards > (not to mention that we now have 7 different CE in PRE, and only 1 IG), so > whether this was intentional or not, BL adds to the NCL argument... > Interesting point, you are right of cource, but then again with so few cards/discipline it could not have been done in any other way. > - Never have the cards : Ian Forrestal, Infernal Pact, Infernal Familiar, > Clan Impersonation, been so much looked for At least as far as OBE, TEM and DAI go, you really need the superior to do much of anything, so of the above list only the Infernal pact and CI really shine. > > - The Clan Impersonation / Snaguine Instruction "combo" is an expensive one, > in blood and actions, and some bloodlines are condemned to fail their "mix > well" without any satisfying solution, too bad ! The Sanguine Instruction > card is, in fact, much better in one-clan decks than in mixed bloodlines... > true > > - Ahrimanes : I have not played them, and haven't seen them played once !! > Some people seem to have made winner decks with them, how I do not know. > Weird mix, some good cards, but I'll let people who know them better (Pierre > ?) comment. They make a desent "block everything deck". I would ignore one of their disciplines and focus on importing protean (2 have it). It would go for a bruise and bleed (possibly with ANI bleed over PRE) with intersept. The vamps feature some of the worst discipline distribution in the game. > > - Baali : hard to play they are ; but when one finds way to compensate > their main weakness, either with the Presence "get pool back" bleeds or > cards like Contagion, they seem to devastate, due to very good cards and > minions ; still, not an easy Clan to play with Setite, alone on their own !! > The condemnations seem to do little to nothing. The clan has the sattite defence problem and then some. All but reqires importation of dom for bounce, although few baali have dom. Calling the great beast is one of the best-designed cards in the game. Without being brocken, the beast offers a huge array of play concepts. I have tried out 8-10 difrent versions of the beast deck and I am not sick of it quite yet. Although the deck is always about the beast, rather then baali as a clan (I have yet to play a game where I gave him DAI). > - Blood Brothers : one of the few BL that can really stand on its own !! > They can fight effectively, although Cel / Pot is more aggressive IMO than > For / Pot ; they have plenty good cards, although what works elsewhere (lots > of Unwholesome) doesn't work here, as always, because of the strong > intercept / fortitude metagame. And I must say I am still not convinced by > the 2 circles thing : it is a pity that no card allows for an interesting > mix, this is not a Clan of 10 vampires but really 2 separate Clans of 5 ; it > would have been interesting to be able to take profit from SOME powers even > with mixed circles. Well, still a nice clan on the whole, a new edge in > fighting (and then some). > As I mentioned above, almost all bloodlines that I have seen are played on their own with some mixed clan support. With regard to the brothers, the for/pot combination all but screams disarm. Using all that inferior pot with the chicago circle, it is dificult to do real damage without the ultra-rare card. Also with the Chicago baldies, at least one should have been given FOR. Torrence I have less experience with - Chris Berger's idea to use Mark's obf to play outferior clotho's gifts for bloat sounds promising. > - Daughters of Cacophony : as I've said before, a nice addition for the > voters. Very mixeable with the Ventrue, much less with the Tores (nice for > the Cel card, but then no For, no Aus for the girls...). > Their handicaps concerning Intercept makes them near impossible to play by > themselves. > Soem good cards (Siren's Lure, Echo of Harmonies...). I yet have to decide > if Art's Traumatic Essence is among them. > The Choir strategy could have been interesting, but it seems totally > uneffective, all because of that one small line : burn this card during your > influence phase (that and the number of Daughters it would require, so you > can be sure you have no intercept at all...). > On the vampire side, Angela Preston is enormous, to the point that I wonder > what is Gaël's use in comparison (Chimerstry, come ooooon !!) ; and of > course, the Sabbat gets the worst deal (Muse, as beautiful as she can be, > won't be a great help by herself), and the Camarilla the best one. As if it > needed any... > I mostly agree with the above. It is difficult to say if the daughters do anything better then vantrue small to mid caps can do. They also show very little for, even more so at superior. The melponomie cards are interesting, but do not mesh with the vampires too well. Most would be best used by a 9-cap vampire. Siren's lure opens up a possobility of a combat angle. As for the vamps, another should have been camarila to make a voting deck more feasable. The Choirs are interesting. The local prince valiantly tried to play a choir deck repeatedly, only to proove the point that even in ideal conditions - the choirs are wallpaper without a mega-ton of freak drives. > - Gargoyle : I yet have to see a good Gargoyles deck ; some of them have > been used succesfully in some !Ventrue (well, more like : Lazvé) decks, and > I know some people have made good decks but I still don't know the recipe. > Some good vampires, a few good cards, and very good allies / retainers. The > weird "no discipline" flight, which adds to the difficulty of mixing them > (not even Ian can learn it), not a very smart move IMO. > And did I mention the 4 Camarilla slaves, 2 Independents, and 2 Sabbat (one > of which isn't a Slave), meaning that 3 can be used by Independent vampires, > 4 by Sabbat Tremere, and up to 7 by Camarilla Tremere !!! Yeah, sure, the > Camarilla needed some more help, everyone knows it was underpowered, as we > will soon see once more... The gargoyles have their toys and do the whole unblockable force-of-will thing well. Camarilla gargs seem the way to go over the sabbat ones. i have yet to see anyone try to use their stealth (why?) heavily. Should have had more "guard" themed cards, IMHO. > > - Harbingers of Skulls : <snip> Seem to suck a lot. > - Kiasyd : <snip> Mostly have seen used as throw-ins to a lasombra deck. Earth swords looks cool, but not with the lowest cap with the "CUP" being 6 or 7. > Nagaraja : the only Scarce clan not having a unique discipline. They do have > nice specials, though. Not an ideal discipline mix in itself, I found them > useful mainly in Bart decks. The interests of playing them with all the Aus > Gios seem dim, as most are costly (8, 9, 10; 11 !!) and much less > interesting, so usually only Gillespi seems worth it to me, and a little > Isabel, plus of course Beatrice l'Angou. Nuff said. > These dudes might as well have been big catiff for all that they can be played as a "clan". The specials ar kind of random, it would have been nice if they all had a common ability to go eat a mortal ally or something as a storyline nod. > - Salubri : now, we have here without any doubt THE best Bloodlines vampire > : MATTHIAS (hurrays, applause...). The discipline is great in sup, with > cards like Spirit Marionette (whole new strategy) or Renewed Vigor > (alternative to 5th tradition available even to Sabbat - too bad no !Salubri > has Obe...), or the incerdible Repulsion, not to mention the Master : Sight > Beyond Sight ; I'm still more reserved about vitae block (who apart from > Dominique could use the Ani version ??), Unburdening the Bestial Soul, > despite its great illustration (the "younger vampire" part ruins it all, and > it's quite expensive...), and I yet have to find what allies apart from > Shamblings (who can't get life back) could be useful and mixeable enough to > justify the extensive use of Panacea, inf Obe Renewed, or Resurrection > (usable with the Shamblings, if you have another one to burn). > Matthias mixes very well with the Harbingers, the others with the !Ventrue > or special "guest stars" decks (I played them with Obf and they killed !! > They also liked Muaziz's company...), only regret is Miriam Benyona, with > Obe and a very mild special. > But Matthias rules !!! > My fav. bloodline. Also features some trully "inspired" fuzzy art by Christopher shy. Apperently all the Salubri get their hair done in the same back alley. The discipline cards are almost uniformly powerfull (if not all that original), with the marionette possibly being too good (did it really need to be a +1 stealth action?). > - Salubri antitribu : small, expensive, expensive and small ; only one of > them has all their disciplines, and not even in sup !! > But they do have some good cards, and the decks can work, so maybe they > don't need any more... > blessing of the name is a funny card, although with for it is poorly designed as the game grinds to a halt for about 15 min. as the !sal player takes about 9-10 actions (that typically acomplish very little). It would fave been better as just a bonus intercept/weapon damage card withouth the untap/tap effect. The melee weapon angle is a nice idea, although perhaps the implementation could have been better. Some vamp cross-over with the Salubri (and OBE) would have been nice. A bunch of val cards seem to bave been tweaked into coasterhood or at least obscurity. > - Samedi : <Snip> Seen a fairly effective low cap equipment/mask deck that used some. Also there was the funny Ashes to ashes?/undead persistance gimick I saw in Madison. Lastly the withering/trap/compress combo is about 1-2 per game type of a set-up. Unre could have been judged very useful, as Reg also has Aus, but Unre can't > even use the really interesting version of Withering, so, well... > Also, some very useless cards (who cares if they can't block Samedi ?), and > the weirdest split-discipline of all (Pre / Than on the very mildly > interesting Putrefaction...). > Too bad, could have been nice. She is a harbringer, and is probably a capacity point too big. > Oh, and The Baron is great. Just not in the right Clan... true for a lot of samedi. > > - The Trujahs : Temporis is über-cool and very powerful. Maybe the "no cel" > limitation was important for game balance, but then it makes mixing with > other brujahs very improbable, and that's a pity. I would have liked, at > least, some Tem / Cel cards, as a matter of fact I think everyone expected > them !! > Result is : they mix very, very well with the Setites, Krassimir is a nice > addition in a Giovanni Bruise'n'bleed (or maybe even without Pot, not sure > yet if it's as effective), and Nu seems to be mainly used with lots of Pot > weenies as support. All in all, Tem works very well but is very expensive, > so one has to compensate Tem is definetly expencive, but aside from untap does not seem to do anything in perticular as a theme. Lapse is a very uninteractive card that I am surprised to see printed. > The best card is without any possible contest Domaine of Evernight, with its > 3 very good and very different uses, and the worst one has to be Cio's Kiss > (very cornercase, and the Lasombra's Political Seizurers will prefer the > Thanks for the Donation combo) ; before it came out, everyone thought Rewind > Time was a must, but now I'm not so sure. All very good points, would have been cool if they gave syneosis tha to set up the heart/domain/weather combo... then again maybe not. Again would have been nice if one would have been a cam to open votes up a bit. (Note that these cam. suggestions do not rarlly impact sect balance, as cam already has better power options, and the traditions are the problem in any case rather then the vamps.) > Anyway, a great Clan, just not very mixeable, and once more a new asset for > the damned Setites, Caine get their serpentine souls (I should know, I play > one in LRPG !! ;-) > I doubt Trujah will be mixed with anything other then weenies due to their high capacities (barring a bloat deck). > As for the "non-bloodlines" cards, the dual disciplines are a very nice > addition, the best being maybe Shroud of Absence or Read the Wind, or... > Well, there are lots of them !! The hardest to use may be the Aus / Qui > one... > The AUS/CHE one currently has no vamps who can play it without a skill card at superior. > So, all in all, my conclusions on Bloodlines : > > a nice extension, with many mistakes or pitfalls, but some really new > possibilities ; some Clans are pretty useless or cornercase, some have a > great future ahead of them, we shall see which ones completely disappear in > face of future extensions and which ones don't. > I sure hope, and many friends confided the same to me, that future > extensions will add some help for some of the Bloodlines who need it the > most... Not sure if any of the bloodlines have much of any "future" for some time to come. I seriously doubt that white wolf will print any bloodline vamps or bloodline disciplined cards for at least a year. Good analysis, and mostly true to my experience in the local meta. IMO, Bloodlines did not have have sufficient impact on a highly competative environment that I would have liked. However, they did introduce some fun toys and did not have any obviously/generaly abusable cards. As for the percieved stagnation of competative metagame on princes/traditions, it would be nice to see the design shift to the use of "environmental" counters, as opposed to MRPing the traditions or printing "silver bullet" counters. Examples would be a majesty action that caused a vamp to burn 2 blood, or a prince/justicar to burn 5 blood as a D action. A 1 blood potence strike that does 2 to an average vampire and 4 to a titled one. A tha action that causes a vamp to tap/ not untap for a turn or lets you take control of a titled vampire for a turn. A disciplinless modifier that makes an action unblockable by titled vampires and increases a bleed vs a player with a vampire under 3 capacity, an independant/sabbat-only action mnodifier to a sucsessfull vote to strip a title from a prince/justicar and gain 2 votes on an acting vamp, ect. In short print some generally usefull cards that cause extra pain to princes/justicars. Naram

>So, we now have had the time to analyse the impact of the various Bloodlines >and other cards coming with it. "Six months" in, one would think that any broken strategies and the major benefits of an expansion would be found, but a few areas of disagreement are likely to occur. >My general feeling over Bloodlines are : > >- some bloodlines have been much better designed than others It would be a surprise if this weren't true given how many were stuffed in the set. >- the Scarce concept works well enough, but is a very big restriction, not >always adapted to the balance of powers. It does achieve what seems to be a goal with the set, which is to discourage to some degree monobloodline decks. Which, in turn, helps prevent two people from playing decks "identical" decks - two players each playing 4 copies of the same 3 vampires sounds like a recipe for disaster. But, if there are going to be a number of problems associated with there only being 3 vampires in a particular "clan", then maybe the "clan" didn't need to be made. >- the Dual Discipline concept is a win ! I find Martyr's Resilience adds something to the game, otherwise the rest could have been loads better either in concept or execution. >- The Split Discipline concept is a very good idea, but we sometimes see >very strange mixes (Than / Pre ???). Besides the obvious, on the plus side, some of these cards reward having the inferior level of a discipline. I would have liked to have seen greater balance between the top versions of the cards. >- Over all, the Bloodlines, as announced, are very hard to play by >themselves, but can complement nicely some other lineages ; once again, some >mix in better than some others. I've seen monobloodline decks for each of the bloodlines, though not necessarily good ones. Just an observation. >- On the whole, they add a few nice touches to existing clans. The Biggest >Winner of all existing Clans is FoS IMHO, because between the Baali and the >Trujahs, they gain several new ways to win (as if they needed them after >Final Nights). I don't see where the FoS are advantaged by either. Neither solves the FoS's primary weakness - defense. >The "no stealth" voters (Ventrue and Toreador) have gained a >lot recently, with Creepshow Casino in FN and now with the Daughters (cf >later). The Giovanni have won some, although mixes are not as obvious or >easy to play as one could have hoped / figured : the Nagaraja are better >played with some Kyasid and a few small Gios, they share only Nec with the >Harbingers (and too few Gios have For), not to speak of the Samedi. Nagaraja fit fairly well with the Giovanni. HoS in certain decks. If I were pressed to choose a winner out of the clans in terms of mixing in bloodlines, I'd choose Giovanni at the moment. >And the >Lasombra, who should have gotten a big hand from the Kyasid, are not in much >better shape than before (see arguments below). The Trujahs are not mixeable >effeciently with big Brujahs or !Brujahs, so they are usually played with >weenie potence, and I yet have to make my opinion on whether Iron Will is a >big help for them or not. <snip CL discussion> >- Never have the cards : Ian Forrestal, Infernal Pact, Infernal Familiar, >Clan Impersonation, been so much looked for > >- The Clan Impersonation / Snaguine Instruction "combo" is an expensive one, >in blood and actions, and some bloodlines are condemned to fail their "mix >well" without any satisfying solution, too bad ! The Sanguine Instruction >card is, in fact, much better in one-clan decks than in mixed bloodlines... > > >And now, Bloodlines Clan by Clan (more details on the ones I played >extensively, of course, this is subjective...) : > >- Ahrimanes : I have not played them, and haven't seen them played once !! >Some people seem to have made winner decks with them, how I do not know. >Weird mix, some good cards, but I'll let people who know them better (Pierre >?) comment. Have you tried building the decks posted? I find the Ahrimanes have a (glass?) ceiling in terms of effectiveness, but they are a reasonable tier 3 option. <snip Baali, BB, Salubri> >- Daughters of Cacophony : as I've said before, a nice addition for the >voters. Very mixeable with the Ventrue, much less with the Tores (nice for >the Cel card, but then no For, no Aus for the girls...). >Their handicaps concerning Intercept makes them near impossible to play by >themselves. Hope for an ineffectual predator? >Soem good cards (Siren's Lure, Echo of Harmonies...). I yet have to decide >if Art's Traumatic Essence is among them. >The Choir strategy could have been interesting, but it seems totally >uneffective, all because of that one small line : burn this card during your >influence phase (that and the number of Daughters it would require, so you >can be sure you have no intercept at all...). Having them stick around would have been far worse. >On the vampire side, Angela Preston is enormous, to the point that I wonder >what is Gaël's use in comparison (Chimerstry, come ooooon !!) ; and of >course, the Sabbat gets the worst deal (Muse, as beautiful as she can be, >won't be a great help by herself), and the Camarilla the best one. As if it >needed any... > >- Gargoyle : I yet have to see a good Gargoyles deck ; some of them have >been used succesfully in some !Ventrue (well, more like : Lazvé) decks, and >I know some people have made good decks but I still don't know the recipe. >Some good vampires, a few good cards, and very good allies / retainers. The >weird "no discipline" flight, which adds to the difficulty of mixing them >(not even Ian can learn it), not a very smart move IMO. >And did I mention the 4 Camarilla slaves, 2 Independents, and 2 Sabbat (one >of which isn't a Slave), meaning that 3 can be used by Independent vampires, >4 by Sabbat Tremere, and up to 7 by Camarilla Tremere !!! Yeah, sure, the >Camarilla needed some more help, everyone knows it was underpowered, as we >will soon see once more... I'm surprised more hasn't been seen of them. My sense is that they are one of the most popular bloodlines flavorwise. OTOH, my experience has been one of finding playing Trem/!Trem with Gargoyles to be rather tiresome. >- Harbingers of Skulls : by themselves, they seldom win (even Lasombra's >voting deck wouldn't stand a chance here, where each of its moves would be >intercepted) ; I saw a nice Harbingers wall / Pulled fangs deck, but it >wasn't an easy one to pull (the trick, not the fang). >They add a new strategy to the game, although for many people it is not a >"fair" one, as it doesn't rely on strategy but rather on spoiling any deck's >careful planning. >Usually, the Harbingers take every chance of winning away from their prey, >making their grand'prey very strong, and then they die. >I've seen some nice mixes with !Ventrue, though. And I'm still trying a few >Matthias versions. >Martyr's Resilience makes them the obvious Shambling Horders, but once more >Necro is much more effective on directed actions than on undirected, and if >you don't get any Horde going all you have left is the dreaded >Slaughterhouses... >Their worst enemy is Arika as a predator (no Slaughter !!), so if they can >vote and don't use Pulses, they should get their hands on an Justicar >Retribution or two, just in case... Slaughterhouse has probably slowed attempts to develop good HoS decks. Their discipline combination and vampires should result in effective decks. I've expected someone to do a Possession deck with them. Apparently, The Baron decks have absorbed that archetype. >- Kiasyd : I loved them before they even got out ; of course, I was >disapointed. >They have two wonderful vampires : Julia Prima, the less expensive (!) >vampire with DOM / OBT, and her 2 specials, and Bartolomew, with his >wonderful special. The rest is not as good : we have Marconius, yet another >9 Cap archbishop usable in a Lasombra deck, but who can't use the very >useful and strong Lasombra masters : Power Structure (for votes) and Elysian >Fields (for votes, bleed, equip with a Black Metamorphosis, whatever) ; >Kassiym is Aurora's brother if you want to try a OBT / For deck, except he >doesn't have Pot, and his special is cornercase (is it made to help Mitchell >?!). Beatrice is great in a Nagaraja deck, out of place everywhere alse. >That is the Kyasid's main problem : 4 out of 5 have Obt, 3 have AUs, 2 of >which have Nec. I would have hoped for one more among them possessing Nec >and Obt (maybe OBT / Nec, as opposed to Bart), and a Nec / Myt card, and >then many, many new things would have been possible ; ot if the Obt / Nec >guy(s) shared a little Pot, or even Obf, they could have been the "missing >link" between the Lasombra and Giovanni, who share 2 disciplines and still >are way too hard to mix. I still hope for some surprises in extensions to >come, but sadly they don't mix well as of now. Nothing wrong with Kassiym. I find the Kiasyd dull. They really don't do anything (good and interesting) the Lasombra couldn't do. >The cards : Stone Travel is without any doubt the best of all !! Better even >then Shroud of Absence (although not for the Lasombra), and it's a common !! >Close second comes Aura Absorption, the counterpart of Spectral Divination, >for free ! Riddle Phantastique is a pale copy of Sensory Depravation, but >can have its uses ; Basilisk's touch is a very, very hard one to pull off, I >yet have to see it succeed ; Folderol is nice when combined with TC, and >obviously was intended for Bart. Absorb the Mind gives a dodge with Dom, >great, but the other uses are quite dispensable ; Earth Swords would be nice >in a deck with many manoeuvers ; and we now get to the worst part : Darkling >Trickery. A flash in basic could be nice, but who wants to trade R1s for it >? The Obt use is preposterous (either you use Obt CE or you want to press to >continue !!) and the MYT use is quite cornercase. The only real manoeuver >available in Obt is already (very) rare, Darkness Within has it in sup, >Shadow Strike costs one and doesn't let you chose your strike (and is better >used with some Pot like TS or Fists of Death), so why not a "Obt : >Manoeuver, Myt : Manoeuver or press, MYT : Manoeuver with an optional press" >instead ?! Crappy card. And, it's Mytherceria that I find makes them so dull. Discipline is poorly developed. >Nagaraja : the only Scarce clan not having a unique discipline. They do have >nice specials, though. Not an ideal discipline mix in itself, I found them >useful mainly in Bart decks. The interests of playing them with all the Aus >Gios seem dim, as most are costly (8, 9, 10; 11 !!) and much less >interesting, so usually only Gillespi seems worth it to me, and a little >Isabel, plus of course Beatrice l'Angou. Nuff said. Le Dinh Tho and Kanimana aren't useful in a Dom/Nec deck? >- Salubri antitribu : small, expensive, expensive and small ; only one of >them has all their disciplines, and not even in sup !! >But they do have some good cards, and the decks can work, so maybe they >don't need any more... Can work? You mean there's some value to the "I can't oust my prey, hope to Fast React with my Garroted guy just so I can burn a vampire" decks? !Salubri scream to be used with other clans except they still don't have much to offer outside of Blessing of the Name. >- Samedi : "Yet another failed combat deck", said someone. Sadly, I have to >agree : they fall to CE, and as nobody wants / needs to block them, the >Hidden Lurkers are useless most of the time. Their greatest card, Withering, >falls to Dodge / CE, so all they can hope for is to detroy some For using >guys. Some have Cel or nice weapons specials, one has Qui, but I yet have to >see any working combination of all these aspects. And I tried the WIthering >/ Shambling Hordes angle, it was nice when it worked, meaning : not against >CEs. >Unre could have been judged very useful, as Reg also has Aus, but Unre can't >even use the really interesting version of Withering, so, well... >Also, some very useless cards (who cares if they can't block Samedi ?), and >the weirdest split-discipline of all (Pre / Than on the very mildly >interesting Putrefaction...). >Too bad, could have been nice. >Oh, and The Baron is great. Just not in the right Clan... Why would you want to fight with the Samedi? They are one of the best equipped clans to avoid or ignore combat decks having stealth, Fortitude, and two fairly good combat defense cards in AtA and DtD. >- The Trujahs : Temporis is über-cool and very powerful. Maybe the "no cel" >limitation was important for game balance, but then it makes mixing with >other brujahs very improbable, and that's a pity. I would have liked, at >least, some Tem / Cel cards, as a matter of fact I think everyone expected >them !! >Result is : they mix very, very well with the Setites, Krassimir is a nice >addition in a Giovanni Bruise'n'bleed (or maybe even without Pot, not sure >yet if it's as effective), and Nu seems to be mainly used with lots of Pot >weenies as support. All in all, Tem works very well but is very expensive, >so one has to compensate. >The best card is without any possible contest Domaine of Evernight, with its >3 very good and very different uses, and the worst one has to be Cio's Kiss >(very cornercase, and the Lasombra's Political Seizurers will prefer the >Thanks for the Donation combo) ; before it came out, everyone thought Rewind >Time was a must, but now I'm not so sure. >Anyway, a great Clan, just not very mixeable, and once more a new asset for >the damned Setites, Caine get their serpentine souls (I should know, I play >one in LRPG !! ;-) I hate the Trujah discipline mix. Nor do I think it's effective. They lack so many things, such as stealth, intercept, bounce. Temporis, with other disciplines, might have been broken. I put the Trujah into the category of "could do just as well with a similar deck playing someone else". >As for the "non-bloodlines" cards, the dual disciplines are a very nice >addition, the best being maybe Shroud of Absence or Read the Wind, or... >Well, there are lots of them !! The hardest to use may be the Aus / Qui >one... Shroud and Read are strong cards. That they are redundant to existing cards makes me wonder why they were made. >So, all in all, my conclusions on Bloodlines : > >a nice extension, with many mistakes or pitfalls, but some really new >possibilities ; some Clans are pretty useless or cornercase, some have a >great future ahead of them, we shall see which ones completely disappear in >face of future extensions and which ones don't. To be honest, I think it's a poor expansion, that could have been loads better by only going with half the bloodlines, saving the other half for Bloodlines II. [ quoted text not captured ]

>> Hmmmm.... I think you underestimate the impact it has had on the game. >> In this country, 90% of decks now have at least one Bloodlines card >> in. I would go so far as to say about 40% of decks currently have a >> theme or strategy based purely around Bloodlines cards. > >Yes, so does it here. But we'll be able to judge that after the release of >Camarilla, and I'm ready to bet that when the fashion wears off very few >people will still be playing more than a few useful cards or vampires from >Bloodlines in their decks (I know I still will...). The Cam set isn't likely to have anywhere near the variety that Bloodlines offered. So, I wouldn't worry about people giving up on the bloodlines for quite a while. > > My personal belief is at this juncture, the Temporis is the least >> popular discipline (lots of cards, but only 3 BIG vampires to use >> them), Less popular than Visceratika? >Really ? Well, they are hard to play, and the scarcity doesn't help either, >but I think all three of them have met some success... > >> Samedi are the least workable as a "Clan", > >I have to agree, their lack or intercept, redirect or CE counter makes them >very, very hard to play. Stealth is the most important element to ousting a prey. Sure, they lack defense, though not as badly as the DoC, but that weakness is occasionally overcome by fortunate seating position. Ignoring the scarce clans, I'd nominate the !Salubri and Gargoyles as being the least effective working as a clan. >>and Daughters of >> Cack got the worst cards to actually play with. > >My turn to disagree. Their two Operas are good, Siren's Lure is great, >Madrigal is better than a Bribes combined with 2 votes (not to mention the >only votes usable as reaction or modifier), Echo of Harmonies is great, and >Concert Tour could be good if only the daughters were bigger or could use it >on other vampires. Now, I'll have to grant you that Choir is a failure, >Toreador's Bane is useless more often than not, Missing Voice is good only >in sup so it only so-so, Tourette's Voice is a poor compensation of the >girlies' weakness, and Art's Traumatic, well... Yeah, I don't know in what way the DoC got the worst cards. >But the Samedi have worst cards, Visceratika isn't the best discipline >either (the allies cards are much better) and flight has good ones but is a >mistake in itself IMO (who needs one more ability that no one else can use >?), and as I said I think the Kiasyd alternate between good and very bad >cards ; at least, the daughter's Rares are good !! Thanatosis is annoying because it doesn't solve the Samedi's problems. Actually, worse, it gives them stuff they already have. Gee, combat defense when you also have Obfuscate and Fortitude. Hag's Wrinkles when you already have Obfuscate and Freak Drive. Whatever. Visceratika is similar in its "give them something they don't need" nature. Multiple S:CE for a clan with Potence and Fortitude? Visceratika lends itself to a stealth bleed archetype, which is weird. Valeren blows big time. Nice and all to try and encourage people to play with melee weapons, but melee weapon combat sucks as long as S:CE and Immortal Grapple are popular. Then, Valeren doesn't do anything else worth mentioning. Rayzeel's Song? The card's painful in its coasterness. >> and the rare >> new card - Saguine Instruction is the stand out card for the set by a >> mile. > >Yes. Huh? The card is not good. >> but this wasn't a "set": >> it was a bit of fun. No "Game Changing" cards. No broken strategies. >> Just fun. One should expect every expansion to have an impact on competitive play. If not, the environment will get stale. So, I don't believe there's such a thing as a "fun" set. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Cool, I was hoping someone will take a shot at discribing the > post-bloodlines impact. I will snip the sections of your analysis > dealing with the bloodlines that I have not yet seen played well. Also > I apologise for the spelling in my posts. Glad to have given you this opportunity, and don't worry, your spelling doesn't seem worse than mine ! :-) > > - the Scarce concept works well enough, but is a very big restriction, not > > always adapted to the balance of powers. > > > > If it was meant to make playing the scarce clan as a "clan: deck > difficult, then it was a succsess. In practice it means that people > who want to use the rare discipline simply pick one of the scarce > vampires and put in a bunch of copies of him/her. Yes. > > - Over all, the Bloodlines, as announced, are very hard to play by > > themselves, but can complement nicely some other lineages ; once again, some > > mix in better than some others. > > I disagree, most decks heavily bloodlines that I have seen either > focus entierly on the bloodline (along with some fillers - either > weenies or votes), or just threw in 1-2 of the new vamps in an > existing deck. The one exception that I have seen/played is the > daughters/ventrue mix. Sorry but I have trouble understanding your point. You mean that some Bloodlines stand on their own, and that you also saw some decks with very few BL, but few decks with say half BL and half others, is that it ? I have seen Salubri mixed with !Ventrue or Harbingers, Harbingers mixed with !Ventrue, the Gargoyles obviously have to be mixed, so do the Nagaraja, so I think few Bloodlines really stand a chance "on their own" ; anyway, any of these assertions has to be precised for each clan, so let's go on... > <snip> > > > - Never have the cards : Ian Forrestal, Infernal Pact, Infernal Familiar, > > Clan Impersonation, been so much looked for > > At least as far as OBE, TEM and DAI go, you really need the superior > to do much of anything, so of the above list only the Infernal pact > and CI really shine. You are right. For some others (Myt, for example) Ian would be great, especially if Aus / Dom are played. > > - Ahrimanes : I have not played them, and haven't seen them played once !! > > Some people seem to have made winner decks with them, how I do not know. > > Weird mix, some good cards, but I'll let people who know them better (Pierre > > ?) comment. > > They make a desent "block everything deck". I would ignore one of > their disciplines and focus on importing protean (2 have it). It would > go for a bruise and bleed (possibly with ANI bleed over PRE) with > intersept. The vamps feature some of the worst discipline distribution > in the game. Yes ! A 7 cap with For in inf, among others... > > - Baali : hard to play they are ; but when one finds way to compensate > > their main weakness, either with the Presence "get pool back" bleeds or > > cards like Contagion, they seem to devastate, due to very good cards and > > minions ; still, not an easy Clan to play with Setite, alone on their own !! > > > > The condemnations seem to do little to nothing. The clan has the > sattite defence problem and then some. All but reqires importation of > dom for bounce, although few baali have dom. Calling the great beast > is one of the best-designed cards in the game. Without being brocken, > the beast offers a huge array of play concepts. I have tried out 8-10 > difrent versions of the beast deck and I am not sick of it quite yet. > Although the deck is always about the beast, rather then baali as a > clan (I have yet to play a game where I gave him DAI). Ok. > > - Blood Brothers : one of the few BL that can really stand on its own !! > > They can fight effectively, although Cel / Pot is more aggressive IMO than > > For / Pot ; they have plenty good cards, although what works elsewhere (lots > > of Unwholesome) doesn't work here, as always, because of the strong > > intercept / fortitude metagame. And I must say I am still not convinced by > > the 2 circles thing : it is a pity that no card allows for an interesting > > mix, this is not a Clan of 10 vampires but really 2 separate Clans of 5 ; it > > would have been interesting to be able to take profit from SOME powers even > > with mixed circles. Well, still a nice clan on the whole, a new edge in > > fighting (and then some). > > > > As I mentioned above, almost all bloodlines that I have seen are > played on their own with some mixed clan support. With regard to the > brothers, the for/pot combination all but screams disarm. Using all > that inferior pot with the chicago circle, it is dificult to do real > damage without the ultra-rare card. Also with the Chicago baldies, at > least one should have been given FOR. Torrence I have less experience > with - I used them, and they were quite effective - but would have been even more so with more Disarms, of course. I prefer them because they have better disciplines and more blood of them - it goes away fast !! > Chris Berger's idea to use Mark's obf to play outferior > clotho's gifts for bloat sounds promising. Hey, I thought of it too ! ;-) And the Obf can be useful for the Unwholesome at the beginning of the game ; you can turn them into bleeders with the Walk of Caine, and they can fight too... [ quoted text not captured ] Yes, I see, but under NRA Freak Drives couldn't have any use. Once more, the sect thing is a bad one, and the intercept is way too much, there is an obvious design mistake here. But still, IMO they are better than midcap Ventrues, they offer more options and a little more stealth, and every bit matters when you're a Ventrue !! I played them and saw them played with the Ventrue quite efficiently. (snip myself) > The gargoyles have their toys and do the whole unblockable > force-of-will thing well. Camarilla gargs seem the way to go over the > sabbat ones. i have yet to see anyone try to use their stealth (why?) > heavily. Should have had more "guard" themed cards, IMHO. > > > > > - Harbingers of Skulls : > > <snip> > Seem to suck a lot. Very slippery terrain... > > - Kiasyd : > > <snip> > Mostly have seen used as throw-ins to a lasombra deck. Earth swords > looks cool, but not with the lowest cap with the "CUP" being 6 or 7. Earth Swords ? Well, if I had many Black Met maybe I'd try that card, but without it it's just not worth it, especially not in a Lasombra deck (Thrown Gate, Torn Signpost + Shadow Strike...), and if you have to use a Thoughts Betrayed just for a 3R strike, let's spend 2 more and Entomb the guy... > > Nagaraja : the only Scarce clan not having a unique discipline. They do have > > nice specials, though. Not an ideal discipline mix in itself, I found them > > useful mainly in Bart decks. The interests of playing them with all the Aus > > Gios seem dim, as most are costly (8, 9, 10; 11 !!) and much less > > interesting, so usually only Gillespi seems worth it to me, and a little > > Isabel, plus of course Beatrice l'Angou. Nuff said. > > > > These dudes might as well have been big catiff for all that they can > be played as a "clan". The specials ar kind of random, it would have > been nice if they all had a common ability to go eat a mortal ally or > something as a storyline nod. LOL > > - Salubri : (snip) > > My fav. bloodline. Also features some trully "inspired" fuzzy art by > Christopher shy. Apperently all the Salubri get their hair done in the > same back alley. The discipline cards are almost uniformly powerfull > (if not all that original), with the marionette possibly being too > good (did it really need to be a +1 stealth action?). YES !!! :-) > > - Salubri antitribu : small, expensive, expensive and small ; only one of > > them has all their disciplines, and not even in sup !! > > But they do have some good cards, and the decks can work, so maybe they > > don't need any more... > > > > blessing of the name is a funny card, although with for it is poorly > designed as the game grinds to a halt for about 15 min. as the !sal > player takes about 9-10 actions (that typically acomplish very > little). It would fave been better as just a bonus intercept/weapon > damage card withouth the untap/tap effect. The melee weapon angle is a > nice idea, although perhaps the implementation could have been better. > Some vamp cross-over with the Salubri (and OBE) would have been nice. Yes. > A bunch of val cards seem to bave been tweaked into coasterhood or at > least obscurity. > > > - Samedi : > > <Snip> Seen a fairly effective low cap > equipment/mask deck that used > some. Also there was the funny Ashes to ashes?/undead persistance > gimick I saw in Madison. Lastly the withering/trap/compress combo is > about 1-2 per game type of a set-up. > > Unre could have been judged very useful, as Reg also has Aus, but > Unre can't > > even use the really interesting version of Withering, so, well... > > Also, some very useless cards (who cares if they can't block Samedi ?), and > > the weirdest split-discipline of all (Pre / Than on the very mildly > > interesting Putrefaction...). > > Too bad, could have been nice. > > She is a harbringer, and is probably a capacity point too big. Yes, but she must have been given Than for some reason, don't you think ? And her special is si crappy, except if you succeed with playing a few Compresses at the right time... > > Oh, and The Baron is great. Just not in the right Clan... > > true for a lot of samedi. Care to develop ? Would you be speaking of Jack, for example (crappy in a normal Samedi deck, too expensive compared to Jorge except if you use lots, lots of weapons) ? (...) > Tem is definetly expencive, but aside from untap does not seem to do > anything in perticular as a theme. Lapse is a very uninteractive card > that I am surprised to see printed. You mean a "shut up, I'm playing" type of card ? There are some already... And it's expensive, especially if you want to counter manoeuvers too... Man, I just realised the Trujahs could also play Rigor Mortis, Pre version, so for 3 blood the opponent can do NOTHING for the whole turn !!! But then, if you don't kill them first turn, why play at all ? > > The best card is without any possible contest Domaine of Evernight, with its > > 3 very good and very different uses, and the worst one has to be Cio's Kiss > > (very cornercase, and the Lasombra's Political Seizurers will prefer the > > Thanks for the Donation combo) ; before it came out, everyone thought Rewind > > Time was a must, but now I'm not so sure. > > All very good points, would have been cool if they gave syneosis tha > to set up the heart/domain/weather combo... then again maybe not. > Again would have been nice if one would have been a cam to open votes > up a bit. (Note that these cam. suggestions do not rarlly impact sect > balance, as cam already has better power options, and the traditions > are the problem in any case rather then the vamps.) > > > Anyway, a great Clan, just not very mixeable, and once more a new asset for > > the damned Setites, Caine get their serpentine souls (I should know, I play > > one in LRPG !! ;-) > > > > I doubt Trujah will be mixed with anything other then weenies due to > their high capacities (barring a bloat deck). I've had some success with a Krassimir / Giovanni (and few low-caps, with Pochtli and Carlotta !!) Bruise'n'bleed deck. > > As for the "non-bloodlines" cards, the dual disciplines are a very nice > > addition, the best being maybe Shroud of Absence or Read the Wind, or... > > Well, there are lots of them !! The hardest to use may be the Aus / Qui > > one... > > > > The AUS/CHE one currently has no vamps who can play it without a skill > card at superior. Nightmare Curse, you mean ? It's a good thing, the Ravnos don't really need an easy access to more Deprivation. Is NC better than SD ? > > So, all in all, my conclusions on Bloodlines : > > > > a nice extension, with many mistakes or pitfalls, but some really new > > possibilities ; some Clans are pretty useless or cornercase, some have a > > great future ahead of them, we shall see which ones completely disappear in > > face of future extensions and which ones don't. > > I sure hope, and many friends confided the same to me, that future > > extensions will add some help for some of the Bloodlines who need it the > > most... > > Not sure if any of the bloodlines have much of any "future" for some > time to come. I seriously doubt that white wolf will print any > bloodline vamps or bloodline disciplined cards for at least a year. (dry a tear of blood...) > Good analysis, and mostly true to my experience in the local meta. > IMO, Bloodlines did not have have sufficient impact on a highly > competative environment that I would have liked. However, they did > introduce some fun toys and did not have any obviously/generaly > abusable cards. I mostly agree. > As for the percieved stagnation of competative metagame on > princes/traditions, it would be nice to see the design shift to the > use of "environmental" counters, as opposed to MRPing the traditions > or printing "silver bullet" counters. Examples would be a majesty > action A Majesty Action ? What do you mean ?? that caused a vamp to burn 2 blood, or a prince/justicar to > burn 5 blood as a D action. A 1 blood potence strike that does 2 to an > average vampire and 4 to a titled one. A tha action that causes a vamp > to tap/ not untap for a turn or lets you take control of a titled > vampire for a turn. A disciplinless modifier that makes an action > unblockable by titled vampires and increases a bleed vs a player with > a vampire under 3 capacity, an independant/sabbat-only action > mnodifier to a sucsessfull vote to strip a title from a > prince/justicar and gain 2 votes on an acting vamp, ect. In short > print some generally usefull cards that cause extra pain to > princes/justicars. I understand your point, an dwould agree, because it would balance back in favor of the Sabbat and Independants (maybe too much so) ; but it would also help weenies against high caps, and that they don't need !!! So I think counter cards ain't the right thing to do, giving weapons to "any vampires" is the way to go (and more power against the weenies, some powers have been targeted recently at 3- Caps, but lots of 4/5 caps can be very, very bothersome too !!). > Naram Thanks for your comments, CU 6 months after Camarilla !! ;-)

> >- some bloodlines have been much better designed than others > > It would be a surprise if this weren't true given how many were stuffed in the > set. Yes. And many not long enough playtest for so many new cards... > >- the Scarce concept works well enough, but is a very big restriction, not > >always adapted to the balance of powers. > > It does achieve what seems to be a goal with the set, which is to discourage to > some degree monobloodline decks. Which, in turn, helps prevent two people from > playing decks "identical" decks - two players each playing 4 copies of the same > 3 vampires sounds like a recipe for disaster. Yes, so there is an inherent risk, isn't there ? > But, if there are going to be a number of problems associated with there only > being 3 vampires in a particular "clan", then maybe the "clan" didn't need to > be made. Good point. > >- the Dual Discipline concept is a win ! > > I find Martyr's Resilience adds something to the game, otherwise the rest could > have been loads better either in concept or execution. What about Read the Winds ? No Tzimisce goes out without them... And Shroud of Absence is very, very popular, although I'd say as it is (very) Rare they should have switched the effects with Stone Travel... > >- Over all, the Bloodlines, as announced, are very hard to play by > >themselves, but can complement nicely some other lineages ; once again, some > >mix in better than some others. > > I've seen monobloodline decks for each of the bloodlines, though not > necessarily good ones. Just an observation. Yes. Not impossible : just hard ; sometimes very, very hard. > >- On the whole, they add a few nice touches to existing clans. The Biggest > >Winner of all existing Clans is FoS IMHO, because between the Baali and the > >Trujahs, they gain several new ways to win (as if they needed them after > >Final Nights). > > I don't see where the FoS are advantaged by either. Neither solves the FoS's > primary weakness - defense. If they gain speed, as in number of actions for example (Tem), they gain defense. (I don't know exactly how the Baali are supposed to work so I will abstain from extrapolating). Nagaraja are better > >played with some Kyasid and a few small Gios, they share only Nec with the > >Harbingers (and too few Gios have For), not to speak of the Samedi. > > Nagaraja fit fairly well with the Giovanni. Gios Aus, or just Dom / Nec ? Anyway, I wouldn't play them without Bart and Beatrice too... HoS in certain decks. Some decks with Gios ? I'd rather say the contrary, and add some Gios to work with the HoS !! > If I were > pressed to choose a winner out of the clans in terms of mixing in bloodlines, > I'd choose Giovanni at the moment. Against all apparences when we first heard of all the clans playing Nec, I now have to disagree : Nec has been winning many adepts (and still is on the whole a crappy discipline with the exception of 2 very good cards), but the Gios didn't win much. (snoop) > >And now, Bloodlines Clan by Clan (more details on the ones I played > >extensively, of course, this is subjective...) : > > > >- Ahrimanes : I have not played them, and haven't seen them played once !! > >Some people seem to have made winner decks with them, how I do not know. > >Weird mix, some good cards, but I'll let people who know them better (Pierre > >?) comment. > > Have you tried building the decks posted? I find the Ahrimanes have a (glass?) > ceiling in terms of effectiveness, but they are a reasonable tier 3 option. No, I've had to chose some Bloodlines I'd never play, as I did with all the other extensions, because I don't have truckloads of money (not to mention time to play half the ideas I have !!). So, no Ahrimanes, Baali or !Salubri for me, and all their cards traded away... > <snip Baali, BB, Salubri> You snip two of the better clans !! ;-( > >- Daughters of Cacophony : as I've said before, a nice addition for the > >voters. Very mixeable with the Ventrue, much less with the Tores (nice for > >the Cel card, but then no For, no Aus for the girls...). > >Their handicaps concerning Intercept makes them near impossible to play by > >themselves. > > Hope for an ineffectual predator? Get on your knees and pray to survive. That's the only defense the Crusaders had found when first confronted with the Arabians war machines and the long forgotten (in Occident) Greek Fire. And they thought it worked, so why not pray Caine and Vote everybody out ?! > >Soem good cards (Siren's Lure, Echo of Harmonies...). I yet have to decide > >if Art's Traumatic Essence is among them. > >The Choir strategy could have been interesting, but it seems totally > >uneffective, all because of that one small line : burn this card during your > >influence phase (that and the number of Daughters it would require, so you > >can be sure you have no intercept at all...). > > Having them stick around would have been far worse. You mean, it could actually have made some damage ? > >- Gargoyle : (...) > I'm surprised more hasn't been seen of them. My sense is that they are one of > the most popular bloodlines flavorwise. OTOH, my experience has been one of > finding playing Trem/!Trem with Gargoyles to be rather tiresome. (...) > Slaughterhouse has probably slowed attempts to develop good HoS decks. Their > discipline combination and vampires should result in effective decks. I've > expected someone to do a Possession deck with them. Apparently, The Baron > decks have absorbed that archetype. I'd see more something like a Daemonic Weenie Possession, with Anisa, Toy Chest Test, and some "surviving while others burn" strategy... Maybe add some cards like Antediluvian (too bad there isn't a Sabbat Segregation...) and bloat, then wait until there's some burning... Do we see a pattern emerging here ? I'll give it a try, I think !! > >- Kiasyd : I loved them before they even got out ; of course, I was > >disapointed. (...) > Nothing wrong with Kassiym. I find the Kiasyd dull. They really don't do > anything (good and interesting) the Lasombra couldn't do. True enough. As a matter of fact, they don't vote half as well, could bleed as well or better but can't use Elysian Fields, they don't have a proper HG, can't rush with Political Struggle... My opinion is that they should have had a special power allowing them to play any card requiring Lasombra (why not ? I know they separated from the main Clan, but still they have some ties ; maybe pay the cards one more ?), and THEN they would have been very, very good ! > And, it's Mytherceria that I find makes them so dull. Discipline is poorly > developed. Yup. Only thing saves them is the vampires (two of them, actually, follow my stare...). > >Nagaraja : the only Scarce clan not having a unique discipline. They do have > >nice specials, though. Not an ideal discipline mix in itself, I found them > >useful mainly in Bart decks. The interests of playing them with all the Aus > >Gios seem dim, as most are costly (8, 9, 10; 11 !!) and much less > >interesting, so usually only Gillespi seems worth it to me, and a little > >Isabel, plus of course Beatrice l'Angou. Nuff said. > > Le Dinh Tho and Kanimana aren't useful in a Dom/Nec deck? Kanimana isn't more useful than existing Gios at 7, and while she uses her special she doesn't do anything else ; Le Din Tho without Aus is expensive, but he has a good special ; OTOH, his weakness is a real big one when played with a discipline as costly as Nec, where no stealth is given for free !!! So I'd play them in Dom / Nec / Aus decks, not in Dom / Nec. And Raful is great even with inferior everything, especially in a Gio / Obf deck, and of course she's a Malkavian in disguise !!! I've tied to conceive a deck built around her disciplines (with a few Ian Forrestals, of course) but fail to see what the exact use of Nec could be, or who would fit inside such a deck ; ideas, anyone ? > >- Salubri antitribu : small, expensive, expensive and small ; only one of > >them has all their disciplines, and not even in sup !! > >But they do have some good cards, and the decks can work, so maybe they > >don't need any more... > > Can work? You mean there's some value to the "I can't oust my prey, hope to > Fast React with my Garroted guy just so I can burn a vampire" decks? ! LOL I saw one of them work recently, mainly bruise'n'bleed oriented, but I must say there wasn't much CE or IG around... Salubri > scream to be used with other clans except they still don't have much to offer > outside of Blessing of the Name. Right. > Why would you want to fight with the Samedi? What else could they do ? Stealth Bleed ? Votes ? Resist'n'bloat ? Anything they could do half as well as anybody else ? > They are one of the best equipped > clans to avoid or ignore combat decks having stealth, Fortitude, and two fairly > good combat defense cards in AtA and DtD. I hate both of these cards, and yet have to understand what they're good for that couldn't be done better with For prevent or Nec CE. > >- The Trujahs : > I hate the Trujah discipline mix. Nor do I think it's effective. They lack so > many things, such as stealth, intercept, bounce. Temporis, with other > disciplines, might have been broken. I put the Trujah into the category of > "could do just as well with a similar deck playing someone else". I understand, and I used to agree. I still think they fail as a Clan concept, but they mix well individually, and some concepts can work. But not an easy thing to do, especially if you want to do better than Brujahs, granted. > >As for the "non-bloodlines" cards, the dual disciplines are a very nice > >addition, the best being maybe Shroud of Absence or Read the Wind, or... > >Well, there are lots of them !! The hardest to use may be the Aus / Qui > >one... > > Shroud and Read are strong cards. That they are redundant to existing cards > makes me wonder why they were made. Not redundant, merely stronger variations. > >So, all in all, my conclusions on Bloodlines : > > > >a nice extension, with many mistakes or pitfalls, but some really new > >possibilities ; some Clans are pretty useless or cornercase, some have a > >great future ahead of them, we shall see which ones completely disappear in > >face of future extensions and which ones don't. > > To be honest, I think it's a poor expansion, that could have been loads better > by only going with half the bloodlines, saving the other half for Bloodlines > II. Not commercially viable, I'd say. I like this extension, but it could have been way better with more time and thought put into the process. Still, it took us 3-6 months to begin seing what really was good or wasn't, could be done or couldn't, so I guess the WW creative teams didn't have that much. Well, I do, so please include me in the next testing teams !! It's always easy to criticize, and they did a pretty good job, but still, we now see that it could have been better. Then again, let's realise one thing : it's the first TOTALLY ORIGINAL extension since AH and DS !! No reprint !!! So it was bound to have mistakes. The pitfalls in Camarilla should be lots less numerous, as it will mostly reprint cards tested many thousand times over... So, despite all its weaknesses, I'd like (honestly, no c...sucking here, just respect for work done) to give a big round of applause to the WW team, who dared to create a whole new set rather rhan just relying on old stuff. But now, I'd suggest if they want to do that again : please guys, take your time, test and retest again, commercial planning shouldn't have negative impact on the overall quality of a product, and I KNOW that you care about how we players feel about these games you create !! Yours, Orpheus

stor...@msn.com (Naram) wrote in message news:<cbc63db8.02063...@posting.google.com>... > "Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:<aflldd$74d$1...@wanadoo.fr>... > > - Finally, Bloodlines are really designed to be played in a No Limit > > environment, and my friends who still play 3 or 4 CL can't find it useful, > > as most decks will rely on 2 or 3 really interesting and mixeable new cards > > (not to mention that we now have 7 different CE in PRE, and only 1 IG), so > > whether this was intentional or not, BL adds to the NCL argument... > > > > Interesting point, you are right of cource, but then again with so few > cards/discipline it could not have been done in any other way. > Well, I thought this was taken for granted, I mean WW made it in several occasions perfectly clear the the game is played without a CL. > > - The Clan Impersonation / Snaguine Instruction "combo" is an expensive one, > > in blood and actions, and some bloodlines are condemned to fail their "mix > > well" without any satisfying solution, too bad ! The Sanguine Instruction > > card is, in fact, much better in one-clan decks than in mixed bloodlines... > > > > true > I agree that the "combo" is crapy, but I still think that SI is very usefull card in decks that don't have loads of action cards. It can free Master Card slots (which helps a lot) and also adds versality to your discipline/crypt choice. > > > > - Ahrimanes : I have not played them, and haven't seen them played once !! > > Some people seem to have made winner decks with them, how I do not know. > > Weird mix, some good cards, but I'll let people who know them better (Pierre > > ?) comment. > > They make a desent "block everything deck". I would ignore one of > their disciplines and focus on importing protean (2 have it). It would > go for a bruise and bleed (possibly with ANI bleed over PRE) with > intersept. The vamps feature some of the worst discipline distribution > in the game. > Worst discipline distribution?! Well they can be played with Gangrel (who become ahrimanes with inf. spiritus, which afterall is very usefull for intercept and combat). Ahrimanes Vote/Intercept decks are also very effective. > > > > - Baali : hard to play they are ; but when one finds way to compensate > > their main weakness, either with the Presence "get pool back" bleeds or > > cards like Contagion, they seem to devastate, due to very good cards and > > minions ; still, not an easy Clan to play with Setite, alone on their own !! > > > > The condemnations seem to do little to nothing. The clan has the > sattite defence problem and then some. All but reqires importation of > dom for bounce, although few baali have dom. Calling the great beast > is one of the best-designed cards in the game. Without being brocken, > the beast offers a huge array of play concepts. I have tried out 8-10 > difrent versions of the beast deck and I am not sick of it quite yet. > Although the deck is always about the beast, rather then baali as a > clan (I have yet to play a game where I gave him DAI). > I'll totaly agree here. But I am somewhat puzzled with their discipline distribution (two with cel and pot), well I don't see how these two could accualy work. The baali just seem to be wasted if they spend their "expensive" action to rush (and there is no possible way for them to block). > > - Blood Brothers : one of the few BL that can really stand on its own !! > > They can fight effectively, although Cel / Pot is more aggressive IMO than > > For / Pot ; they have plenty good cards, although what works elsewhere (lots > > of Unwholesome) doesn't work here, as always, because of the strong > > intercept / fortitude metagame. And I must say I am still not convinced by > > the 2 circles thing : it is a pity that no card allows for an interesting > > mix, this is not a Clan of 10 vampires but really 2 separate Clans of 5 ; it > > would have been interesting to be able to take profit from SOME powers even > > with mixed circles. Well, still a nice clan on the whole, a new edge in > > fighting (and then some). > > > > As I mentioned above, almost all bloodlines that I have seen are > played on their own with some mixed clan support. With regard to the > brothers, the for/pot combination all but screams disarm. Using all > that inferior pot with the chicago circle, it is dificult to do real > damage without the ultra-rare card. Also with the Chicago baldies, at > least one should have been given FOR. Torrence I have less experience > with - Chris Berger's idea to use Mark's obf to play outferior > clotho's gifts for bloat sounds promising. > BB in my opinion share one of the best concepts in the game and though they have limited card selection, they're still very versatile (for a rush deck). > > - Kiasyd : > > <snip> > Mostly have seen used as throw-ins to a lasombra deck. Earth swords > looks cool, but not with the lowest cap with the "CUP" being 6 or 7. > As addition (Marconius for Las.Vote, Bartholomew for Power Bleed with aus and Julia plus the above to any Las.Deck) they have alot to offer (Riddles, combat and stealth, plus their individual abilities), but they're really weak alone > > > Nagaraja : the only Scarce clan not having a unique discipline. They do have > > nice specials, though. Not an ideal discipline mix in itself, I found them > > useful mainly in Bart decks. The interests of playing them with all the Aus > > Gios seem dim, as most are costly (8, 9, 10; 11 !!) and much less > > interesting, so usually only Gillespi seems worth it to me, and a little > > Isabel, plus of course Beatrice l'Angou. Nuff said. > > > > These dudes might as well have been big catiff for all that they can > be played as a "clan". The specials ar kind of random, it would have > been nice if they all had a common ability to go eat a mortal ally or > something as a storyline nod. > As with Bartholomew above, now Power Bleed can easily utilize cards like Revealation and Pulse of the Canaille. > > - Salubri : now, we have here without any doubt THE best Bloodlines vampire > > : MATTHIAS (hurrays, applause...). The discipline is great in sup, with > > cards like Spirit Marionette (whole new strategy) or Renewed Vigor > > (alternative to 5th tradition available even to Sabbat - too bad no !Salubri > > has Obe...), or the incerdible Repulsion, not to mention the Master : Sight > > Beyond Sight ; I'm still more reserved about vitae block (who apart from > > Dominique could use the Ani version ??), Unburdening the Bestial Soul, > > despite its great illustration (the "younger vampire" part ruins it all, and > > it's quite expensive...), and I yet have to find what allies apart from > > Shamblings (who can't get life back) could be useful and mixeable enough to > > justify the extensive use of Panacea, inf Obe Renewed, or Resurrection > > (usable with the Shamblings, if you have another one to burn). > > Matthias mixes very well with the Harbingers, the others with the !Ventrue > > or special "guest stars" decks (I played them with Obf and they killed !! > > They also liked Muaziz's company...), only regret is Miriam Benyona, with > > Obe and a very mild special. > > But Matthias rules !!! > > > > My fav. bloodline. Also features some trully "inspired" fuzzy art by > Christopher shy. Apperently all the Salubri get their hair done in the > same back alley. The discipline cards are almost uniformly powerfull > (if not all that original), with the marionette possibly being too > good (did it really need to be a +1 stealth action?). > Agreed, very powerful discipline, though personaly I don't use them that much, cause some other guys here are bringing at least one deck with Matthias and contesting an 8-cap Sarce vamp. is really costing. > > - Salubri antitribu : small, expensive, expensive and small ; only one of > > them has all their disciplines, and not even in sup !! > > But they do have some good cards, and the decks can work, so maybe they > > don't need any more... > > > > blessing of the name is a funny card, although with for it is poorly > designed as the game grinds to a halt for about 15 min. as the !sal > player takes about 9-10 actions (that typically acomplish very > little). It would fave been better as just a bonus intercept/weapon > damage card withouth the untap/tap effect. The melee weapon angle is a > nice idea, although perhaps the implementation could have been better. > Some vamp cross-over with the Salubri (and OBE) would have been nice. > A bunch of val cards seem to bave been tweaked into coasterhood or at > least obscurity. > A really crappy crypt, that totaly cripples all decks based around them. Also there is no possible way to combine them with other clans (see crapy crypt). Also based in crapy weapons (and without having obf, to save us the lost action, this is also due to the crapy crypt). All in all, by far the worst, weakest and unimaginative clan design in all the set. [ quoted text not captured ] True Brujah are clearly designed to be addition (summoned via Strangers), and they're really good at it.

"Uriel" <galama...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e8b60e8d.02063...@posting.google.com... (snip) > > The condemnations seem to do little to nothing. The clan has the > > sattite defence problem and then some. (snip) for me the condemnation doomed (which gives -1 stealth and makes controller lose one pool if condemned vamp is blocked) is perfect to counter those weenie blood doll who hunts each turn. > I'll totaly agree here. But I am somewhat puzzled with their > discipline distribution (two with cel and pot), well I don't see how > these two could accualy work. The baali just seem to be wasted if they > spend their "expensive" action to rush (and there is no possible way > for them to block). Try to mix Concordance and the cel Baali, you'll see other players Ph34r to block Sargon ( possibly 6 damage) or Mary the Black (posibly 2 + 2 agg ). It works. don't forget you can also block most bleeds with Sense The Sin + Pack Tactics =) (snip) (About the !salubri) > A really crappy crypt, that totaly cripples all decks based around > them. Also there is no possible way to combine them with other clans > (see crapy crypt). Also based in crapy weapons (and without having > obf, to save us the lost action, this is also due to the crapy crypt). > All in all, by far the worst, weakest and unimaginative clan design in > all the set. Granted, the crypt is not soo good. But hey don't cost you much pool, and they are very strong on "deny" decks : you play a bunch of sudden reversals to counter key masters of your prey, and you play loads of intercept just to block the key actions. If you can burn the blocked vampire in the process with 6 agg from a chainsaw, then fine =) You have to be selective about what you let go and what you block . If you deny all of your prey's gain pool strategy, you will beat him on the long run. !salubri can also benefit from blood dolls + Hungry coyote strategy for regular pool gain. Also try disciplineless cards like Change of target, fake out & odd masters like Frenzy =) Try to surprise people when playing !salubri, that's how you'll destabilize them =) reyda

Orpheus wrote: > - Finally, Bloodlines are really designed to be played in a No Limit > environment, and my friends who still play 3 or 4 CL can't find it useful, > as most decks will rely on 2 or 3 really interesting and mixeable new cards > (not to mention that we now have 7 different CE in PRE, and only 1 IG), so > whether this was intentional or not, BL adds to the NCL argument... All VTES cards are designed (and have always been designed) to be played in a No Limit environment. The game itself was designed to be a NCL game. The cards are designed to be played in an official environment, which means using all of the official rules and no additional rules. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On 30 Jun 2002, Uriel wrote: > I'll totaly agree here. But I am somewhat puzzled with their > discipline distribution (two with cel and pot), well I don't see how > these two could accualy work. The baali just seem to be wasted if they > spend their "expensive" action to rush (and there is no possible way > for them to block). I'm playing around with a pot/cel/aus/dai arrangement. They don't waste any actions rushing. I use a lot of Sense the Sin, whose outferior is aus, Concordance to untap, and block and kill. Still in the design stages, but there's a deck where they show up BECAUSE of the cel/pot angle. And, yes, I realize Sargon doesn't have pot, but he does have +1 strength which has him squeezed into the club, for now. David Cherryholmes Prince of Durham

> All VTES cards are designed (and have always been designed) to be played > in a No Limit environment. The game itself was designed to be a NCL game. > > The cards are designed to be played in an official environment, which means > using all of the official rules and no additional rules. Of course, LS, and I don't mean to start again any old argument. But I know some people who still play CL (although I have converted truckloads of players), and maybe I'd like to try it again sometimes, and lots of people still buy cards (and therefore are customers) towards that goal. What I'm saying is that Bloodlines is more NCL oriented than ever, and gives more arguments towards the fact that VTES is designed for NCL than ever before, it doesn't mean the game wasn't conceived for that ; now, it really becomes obvious, and harder playing with CL houserules, is all I meant to say. Yours, Orpheus

On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:21:37 +0200, Orpheus wrote: >saying is that Bloodlines is more NCL oriented than ever, and gives more >arguments towards the fact that VTES is designed for NCL than ever before, >it doesn't mean the game wasn't conceived for that ; now, it really becomes >obvious, and harder playing with CL houserules, is all I meant to say. I don't see it. Bloodlines was explicitly designed to provide support for existing clans, not to supplant them. Concepts like scarce vampires, dual-discipline cards, slave status and upkeep (Baali) all indicate that the relevant cards are intended to be used in small numbers, not as a dominant part of a deck. The rarity scheme is consistent with this too. Andrew

David Cherryholmes <d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.21.02070...@petunia.mc.duke.edu>... [ quoted text not captured ] Ah, ok well baali intercept?! my tzimisce with warghouls wich is the most heavy intercept deck that i have can breed up to +3 stealth, and also block and torporize every minion. How exactly the bbali going to block them and also beat them to death (also about the beating part I should also mention Blod Brothers and Brujah, who would absolutely destroy any baali that happens to block them). Also the only Baali with auspex is Huitzilopochtli who has only pot and is going to be tororized against a descent bruise bleee or intercept deck. All in all, I just don't see the baali as neither rushers nor interceptors. Aris (theoratical) Prince of Thessaloniki

"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3d2039f6$0$26546$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>... > "Uriel" <galama...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:e8b60e8d.02063...@posting.google.com... > > I'll totaly agree here. But I am somewhat puzzled with their > > discipline distribution (two with cel and pot), well I don't see how > > these two could accualy work. The baali just seem to be wasted if they > > spend their "expensive" action to rush (and there is no possible way > > for them to block). > > Try to mix Concordance and the cel Baali, you'll see other players Ph34r to > block Sargon ( possibly 6 damage) or Mary the Black (posibly 2 + 2 agg ). > It works. > don't forget you can also block most bleeds with Sense The Sin + Pack > Tactics =) > Nah, the best use i see for Sargon is to gain the edge for Enticement. Celerity just doesn't seem to work in our metagame. As for blocking you should see what a terror stealth bleed has become here after three guys chose to focus their collections around Lasombra, Malkavians and Setites! +3 Intercept can now only stop a Tzimisce! > > (snip) > > (About the !salubri) > > A really crappy crypt, that totaly cripples all decks based around > > them. Also there is no possible way to combine them with other clans > > (see crapy crypt). Also based in crapy weapons (and without having > > obf, to save us the lost action, this is also due to the crapy crypt). > > All in all, by far the worst, weakest and unimaginative clan design in > > all the set. > > Granted, the crypt is not soo good. But hey don't cost you much pool, and > they are very strong on "deny" decks : you play a bunch of sudden reversals > to counter key masters of your prey, and you play loads of intercept just to > block the key actions. If you can burn the blocked vampire in the process > with 6 agg from a chainsaw, then fine =) > You have to be selective about what you let go and what you block . If you > deny all of your prey's gain pool strategy, you will beat him on the long > run. !salubri can also benefit from blood dolls + Hungry coyote strategy for > regular pool gain. Also try disciplineless cards like Change of target, fake > out & odd masters like Frenzy =) > Try to surprise people when playing !salubri, that's how you'll destabilize > them =) Well, ok but this fucking crappy crypt is their fatal weakness, I tried the proxy deck you suggested on ICQ (half-hearted) but I was twice stomped and i left my favorite bloodline for other, future metagames. > > reyda Aris

On 1 Jul 2002, Uriel wrote: > Ah, ok well baali intercept?! my tzimisce with warghouls wich is the > most heavy intercept deck that i have can breed up to +3 stealth, and > also block and torporize every minion. How exactly the bbali going to > block them and also beat them to death (also about the beating part I > should also mention Blod Brothers and Brujah, who would absolutely > destroy any baali that happens to block them). Also the only Baali > with auspex is Huitzilopochtli who has only pot and is going to be > tororized against a descent bruise bleee or intercept deck. All in > all, I just don't see the baali as neither rushers nor interceptors. "My deck blah blah blah." Nuff said. Huitzilopochtli has POT. You wondered out loud what those vampires could be good for, I happened to be working on a deck -- which is not finished, else I'd give you the decklist -- that had Mary the Black and Sargon as key players, so I threw it out there. Will it ever be "tier 1?" Unlikely, but who knows until you try. I certainly wouldn't dismiss Mary as ineffectual against BB and Brujah. Tool her up with Concordance and she's a +1 strength, agg hand vampire with pot and cel, and who treats agg as normal. Play with Conflagrations and you've got ranged agg as well. It doesn't sound weak to me. Here's the crypt I've got roughed out. Ideally, I'd get an AUS punk, Mary, and another mid-cap on the initial crypt. I may pad this with some Effective Managements or something if I have the room. 3x Mary the Black - cel DAI obf pot PRE, agg - 7 cap 1x Sargon - cel dai obf pre - gain edge special - 5 cap 2x Rigby - aus CEL pot PRE - 5 cap 1x Adrianne - aus cel pot pre, +1 bleed - 6 cap 1x Sigrid Bekker - AUS cel pot pre - 6 cap 1x Zoe - AUS cel obf - 3 cap 1x Dorian Strack - AUS cel - 4 cap 1x Remilliard - AUS pre - 4 cap David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu