Q: Tenebrous Form (Again, yes, I know)

Discussed in #vtes this morning, and now an interesting one: Several examples, and why are they different.... Tenebrous Form -- Type: Action Modifier -- Discipline: Obtenebration -- Cost: 1 blood -- [obt] +1 stealth. [OBT] As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to attempt to block. Minion A vs Minion B Minion A plays Tenebrous Form. Minion B cannot summon Intercept. He does *not* pay one blood, correct? Minion A vs Minion B w/ Raven Spy. Minion A plays Tenebrous Form. Minion B *must* pay one blood? Minion A vs Minion B w/ Raven Spy. Minion A plays Tenebrous Form and immediately plays Shadow Play. Minion B does *not* pay one blood? I believed until reading the rulings, that attempting to block was a one time affair, you either are or you aren't. If this was the case, surely the instant TF is played you must burn one blood if you've already attempted to block, because you're at the time of play in the process of an 'attempt'. It's not a decision made afterwards. I suppose the question is: What constitues the 'attempt' to block? If you can choose to now not block, how come you can't circumvent other penalties such as Faceless Night in the same way? To explain that one: Faceless Night Type: Action Modifier Requires: Obfuscate [obf] +1 stealth. [OBF] +1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the action). So; two conditions to suffer the penalty: 1. Attempt to block this action 2. Fail to do so. Surely, if Tenebrous allows you to 'decline to block' and thus avoid the burning a blood even after an initial block attempt was made, a player facing a Faceless Night can do the same? I'll apologise to jhattara at this point for being completely insufferable in this, I'm just trying to properly understand the reasoning as to how Minion B can avoid paying the cost when TF is played after they attempted to block. Thanks as always, Dave

Addendum: Not proofreading your text makes it ramble horribly. Curses.

Shockwave wrote: > Addendum: Not proofreading your text makes it ramble horribly. Curses. That would have been a good place to put your post-proofread text.

Shockwave wrote: > Discussed in #vtes this morning, and now an interesting one: > Several examples, and why are they different.... > > Tenebrous Form -- Type: Action Modifier -- Discipline: Obtenebration > -- Cost: 1 blood -- > [obt] +1 stealth. > [OBT] As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to > attempt to block. > > Minion A vs Minion B > Minion A plays Tenebrous Form. Minion B cannot summon Intercept. He > does *not* pay one blood, correct? Assuming he doesn't attempt to block, right. > Minion A vs Minion B w/ Raven Spy. > Minion A plays Tenebrous Form. Minion B *must* pay one blood? No. "Tenebrous Form author:LSJ" first hit. And see also the original post to which that first hit refers: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/69efef0be2d7ef25 > Minion A vs Minion B w/ Raven Spy. > Minion A plays Tenebrous Form and immediately plays Shadow Play. > Minion B does *not* pay one blood? No unless he chooses to attempt to block after TF is played. > I believed until reading the rulings, that attempting to block was a > one time affair, you either are or you aren't. If this was the case, > surely the instant TF is played you must burn one blood if you've > already attempted to block, because you're at the time of play in the > process of an 'attempt'. It's not a decision made afterwards. No. Card text: "to attempt to block", not "for attempting to block" or somesuch. > I suppose the question is: What constitues the 'attempt' to block? If Nah, that's not the question. > you can choose to now not block, how come you can't circumvent other > penalties such as Faceless Night in the same way? > > To explain that one: > Faceless Night > Type: Action Modifier > Requires: Obfuscate > [obf] +1 stealth. > [OBF] +1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and > fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the > action). Faceless Night imposes a penalty for the blocker failing, not a pre-condition to the attempt. > So; two conditions to suffer the penalty: > 1. Attempt to block this action > 2. Fail to do so. > > Surely, if Tenebrous allows you to 'decline to block' and thus avoid > the burning a blood even after an initial block attempt was made, a > player facing a Faceless Night can do the same? No.

LSJ wrote: > Shockwave wrote: >> Discussed in #vtes this morning, and now an interesting one: >> Several examples, and why are they different.... >> >> Tenebrous Form -- Type: Action Modifier -- Discipline: Obtenebration >> -- Cost: 1 blood -- >> [obt] +1 stealth. >> [OBT] As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to >> attempt to block. >> >> Minion A vs Minion B >> Minion A plays Tenebrous Form. Minion B cannot summon Intercept. He >> does *not* pay one blood, correct? > > Assuming he doesn't attempt to block, right. > >> Minion A vs Minion B w/ Raven Spy. >> Minion A plays Tenebrous Form. Minion B *must* pay one blood? > > No. > > "Tenebrous Form author:LSJ" first hit. > > And see also the original post to which that first hit refers: > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/69efef0be2d7ef25 > > >> Minion A vs Minion B w/ Raven Spy. >> Minion A plays Tenebrous Form and immediately plays Shadow Play. >> Minion B does *not* pay one blood? > > No unless he chooses to attempt to block after TF is played. "Not unless ..." that is. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Alas, I'm at work, and felt the questions carry regardless and were still fairly legible without too much eccentric wording. My inferior brain couldn't come up with anything more consise.

On Dec 2, 6:07 am, Shockwave <d_knowles...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Discussed in #vtes this morning, and now an interesting one: > Several examples, and why are they different.... > > Tenebrous Form -- Type: Action Modifier -- Discipline: Obtenebration > -- Cost: 1 blood -- > [obt] +1 stealth. > [OBT] As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to > attempt to block. > > Minion A vs Minion B > Minion A plays Tenebrous Form. Minion B cannot summon Intercept. He > does *not* pay one blood, correct? > He pays a blood only if he attempts to block. > Minion A vs Minion B w/ Raven Spy. > Minion A plays Tenebrous Form. Minion B *must* pay one blood? > Only if he attempts to block. > Minion A vs Minion B w/ Raven Spy. > Minion A plays Tenebrous Form and immediately plays Shadow Play. > Minion B does *not* pay one blood? > Not enough info. I'm assuming it goes like this: Minion A bleeds, Minion B attempts to block, Minion A plays Tenebrous Form. At this point, B can decide whether or not to pay a blood. If he does pay a blood, the the block attempt continues, and A may play Shadow Play if he wishes. If B does NOT pay a blood, and no other minion attempts to block, then A may not play Shadow Play.