rules questions

can undead persistence on normal save a vampire form going to torpor if he was sent there by rötschreck? a vampire with rulse of the canaille bleeds with night moves. the bleed is reduced by two. i believe the bleed ends up at 1 because the original bleed of 3 os reduced to 1. the night moves kicks only in at the end because it says "ignore the excess". is this correct? thanks for the help marcus mock v:ekn prince of vienna

In message <9bnpj3$bd1$1...@bird.wu-wien.ac.at>, pallando <pall...@gmx.at> writes >can undead persistence on normal save a vampire form going to torpor if he >was sent there by rötschreck? No. Combat has ended when the vampire goes to torpor. Rotschreck card text. "Combat ends" then later the bit about torpor. >a vampire with rulse of the canaille bleeds with night moves. the bleed is >reduced by two. i believe the bleed ends up at 1 because the original bleed >of 3 os reduced to 1. the night moves kicks only in at the end because it >says "ignore the excess". is this correct? Night Moves reduces all bleeds to one, no matter how the extra is gained, be it permanent or transient. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F What's the meaning when you speak with so much feeling? B457CA213D7E6 Is it over when you're sober? Is it junk? 68C3695D623D5D

<...> > >a vampire with rulse of the canaille bleeds with night moves. the bleed is > >reduced by two. i believe the bleed ends up at 1 because the original bleed > >of 3 os reduced to 1. the night moves kicks only in at the end because it > >says "ignore the excess". is this correct? > > Night Moves reduces all bleeds to one, no matter how the extra is > gained, be it permanent or transient. I think he means:"What goest first: the reducing of the bleed by, say Telepatic Counter, or the reducing of the bleed by Night Moves?" I think you should just follow the general rule: cards are resolved in the order in which they are played. So the NM (being an action and therefore played first) resolves first, giving +3/6 stealth and reducing the bleed to one, then the TC resolves reducing it to 0 > -- > James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D > EBD690ECD7A1F > What's the meaning when you speak with so much feeling? B457CA213D7E6 > Is it over when you're sober? Is it junk? 68C3695D623D5D Jeroen

In article <2QLD6.3594$ii.5...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be>, jeroen rombouts <jeroen....@pandora.be> wrote: ><...> >> >a vampire with rulse of the canaille bleeds with night moves. the bleed >is >> >reduced by two. i believe the bleed ends up at 1 because the original >bleed >> >of 3 os reduced to 1. the night moves kicks only in at the end because it >> >says "ignore the excess". is this correct? >> >> Night Moves reduces all bleeds to one, no matter how the extra is >> gained, be it permanent or transient. > >I think he means:"What goest first: the reducing of the bleed by, say >Telepatic Counter, or the reducing of the bleed by Night Moves?" > >I think you should just follow the general rule: cards are resolved in the >order in which they are played. So the NM (being an action and therefore >played first) resolves first, giving +3/6 stealth and reducing the bleed to >one, then the TC resolves reducing it to 0 The problem is, Night Moves' effect is not immediate upon being played. If the bleed resolves in excess of one, then the excess is ignored, but NM does not reduce the bleed until then. So the Pulsed vampire is bleeding for 3 at +3/6 stealth per Night Moves, then, if Telepathically Countered at inferior, the bleed resolves for 2, 1 of which is in excess of 1 and ignored per NM's text. If TC is played at superior, the NM resolves for 1 and the NM bleed-capping text is moot. TC v. NM is analogous to Skin of Rock v. Flesh of Marble -- you can't reduce bleed after the NM cap has taken effect, since the bleed is actually resolving at that point. Just like you can't play Skin of Rock to prevent the 1 point of damage FoM reduces all otherwise unprevented damage to. gomi -- Individually, I love you all with affection unspeakable; but, collectively, I look upon you with a disgust that amounts to absolute detestation. - Gilbert and Sullivan, 'Pirates of Penzance'

> The problem is, Night Moves' effect is not immediate upon being played. > If the bleed resolves in excess of one, then the excess is ignored, but > NM does not reduce the bleed until then. So the Pulsed vampire is > bleeding for 3 at +3/6 stealth per Night Moves, then, if Telepathically > Countered at inferior, the bleed resolves for 2, 1 of which is in > excess of 1 and ignored per NM's text. If TC is played at superior, > the NM resolves for 1 and the NM bleed-capping text is moot. > > TC v. NM is analogous to Skin of Rock v. Flesh of Marble -- you can't > reduce bleed after the NM cap has taken effect, since the bleed is actually > resolving at that point. Just like you can't play Skin of Rock to prevent > the 1 point of damage FoM reduces all otherwise unprevented damage to. > > gomi Makes sense, could LSJ make a comment?

>===== Original Message From "Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> ===== [ quoted text not captured ] >Makes sense, could LSJ make a comment? NM never reduces the bleed. It makes it so that if the bleed resolves for more than one, the excess is ignored - slightly different than reducing the bleed. Ozmo with a Pulse who attempts Night Moves can still be hit with Archon Investigation. Likewise, if the bleed is reduced by 2 (from 4 to 2), the amount in excess of 1 is still ignored when the bleed resolves. This is slightly different, in an inconsequential way, from the Flesh of Marble case - FoM really does (eventually) prevent damage. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ ------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at: http://MailAndNews.com

-- "LSJ" <vte...@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message news:3B21...@MailAndNews.com... > >===== Original Message From "Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> ===== > >> The problem is, Night Moves' effect is not immediate upon being played. > >> If the bleed resolves in excess of one, then the excess is ignored, but > >> NM does not reduce the bleed until then. So the Pulsed vampire is > >> bleeding for 3 at +3/6 stealth per Night Moves, then, if Telepathically > >> Countered at inferior, the bleed resolves for 2, 1 of which is in > >> excess of 1 and ignored per NM's text. If TC is played at superior, > >> the NM resolves for 1 and the NM bleed-capping text is moot. > >> > >> TC v. NM is analogous to Skin of Rock v. Flesh of Marble -- you can't > >> reduce bleed after the NM cap has taken effect, since the bleed is > >actually > >> resolving at that point. Just like you can't play Skin of Rock to prevent > >> the 1 point of damage FoM reduces all otherwise unprevented damage to. > > > >Makes sense, could LSJ make a comment? > > NM never reduces the bleed. It makes it so that if the bleed resolves for > more than one, the excess is ignored - slightly different than reducing the > bleed. Ozmo with a Pulse who attempts Night Moves can still be hit > with Archon Investigation. Likewise, if the bleed is reduced by 2 (from 4 > to 2), the amount in excess of 1 is still ignored when the bleed resolves. > > This is slightly different, in an inconsequential way, from the Flesh of > Marble case - FoM really does (eventually) prevent damage. > If NM had reduced the bleed, would it have been different then or would it still had taken effect at the end of the bleed like Gomi described?

>===== Original Message From "Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> ===== >If NM had reduced the bleed, would it have been different then or would it >still had taken effect at the end of the bleed like Gomi described? That would depend on when it reduced the bleed, which would depend on how the cards text was theorectically altered to indicate bleed reduction. If it reduced it before the TC was played, then TC could reduce it to zero. If not, then it couldn't. [ quoted text not captured ]