LSJ: wording on Strike: Combat Ends and other effects

After reading this, http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/b36b1de9a5b04e9f , I have a few questions about the implications. (This link already helped me with many doubts, BTW). If one's strike is a Dodge, that really means that whatever the other minion plays as a strike is irrelevant, if negative to the "dodger". Or if it targets him. So the effect of "dodge" lingers until after combat in some cases (Unholy Penance, Catatonic Fear) correct? Why other effects, say Soak inferior, do not linger for the damage of Catatonic Fear? One plays damage prevention cards during the strike resolution step, right? S:CE still has a strike resolution step (when one might use Psyche!) and I know you ruled that the damage from Catatonic Fear could not be prevented, so I ask you why some combat cards have their effect last to the outside of combat and other don't. The other thing is the "S: CE and <insert effect here>". In some cases, the extra effect is explicitly "before the end of combat" (Majesty). In others, the extra effect is explicitly "once combat ends" (Catatonic Fear). What about the cards that do not state explicitly were the extra effect go? From my understanding by reading that post, the default is: IF there is an untap effect it goes before the end of combat. IF it is any other effect, it goes after combat. Right? How about this: Loving Agony [HttB:C] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Valeren/Animalism Only usable at close range. [ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. [val] Strike: combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage. [VAL] As [val] above, and this vampire may burn 1 blood to untap before combat ends. Its obvious that [VAL] is during combat. If the above "general rule" is correct, [val] is after combat, since: a) its not an "untap effect" and b) it's timing is not explicit. Correct? Sorry for going back and forth, but I'm looking for a pattern here. Tiago PS: IMO, making examples with explicit timing on "before combat" and "once combat ends" leads you to a path that all effects should be made explicit. Or a general rule with explicit cases just when they break that rule.

On Feb 23, 8:40 pm, Brum <tiago.br...@gmail.com> wrote: > After reading this,http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/b36b... > , I have a few questions about the implications. (This link already > helped me with many doubts, BTW). > > If one's strike is a Dodge, that really means that whatever the other > minion plays as a strike is irrelevant, if negative to the "dodger". > Or if it targets him. Well, he might not like a lot of things, but the dodge only protects him, not necessarily his interests. > So the effect of "dodge" lingers until after combat in some cases > (Unholy Penance, Catatonic Fear) correct? In a sense, sure. The dodge protects the dodger (and any non-retainer cards on him) from the effects of the opposing minion's strike. A dodge, not waiting to resolve until strike resolution itself, always "lingers" until the strike in question resolves. > Why other effects, say Soak inferior, do not linger for the damage of > Catatonic Fear? When was the Soak in question played? At any rate, Soak resolves when played. It has no lingering effect. Dodge has no lingering effect, proper, either. It merely (instantaneously) protects the dodger from the opposing strike. > One plays damage prevention cards during the strike resolution step, > right? One plays damage prevention when one has taken preventable damage. > S:CE still has a strike resolution step (when one might use Psyche!) > and I know you ruled that the damage from Catatonic Fear could not be > prevented, It can be prevented. But only by effects that can be applied. Leather Jacket can prevent the damage. Soak cannot be played after combat (since it is a combat card), and can thus not do anything. > so I ask you why some combat cards have their effect last > to the outside of combat and other don't. S:CE + damage ends combat and applies damage. Other effects that end combat and do something else after combat ends would also have their effects last to the outside of combat. The ones that don't have effects that are to be applied after combat ends, don't. (Yes, I realize that's a tautology. But it seems to be the answer to the question, too.) > The other thing is the "S: CE and <insert effect here>". > In some cases, the extra effect is explicitly "before the end of > combat" (Majesty). In others, the extra effect is explicitly "once > combat ends" (Catatonic Fear). > What about the cards that do not state explicitly were the extra > effect go? > From my understanding by reading that post, the default is: IF there > is an untap effect it goes before the end of combat. IF it is any > other effect, it goes after combat. Right? Precisely (also, all the untap effects have been rewritten so that their overriding of that default (after) is explicit. > How about this: > > Loving Agony [HttB:C] > Cardtype: Combat > Cost: 1 blood > Discipline: Valeren/Animalism > Only usable at close range. > [ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. > [val] Strike: combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage. > [VAL] As [val] above, and this vampire may burn 1 blood to untap > before combat ends. > > Its obvious that [VAL] is during combat. If the above "general rule" > is correct, [val] is after combat, since: > a) its not an "untap effect" and b) it's timing is not explicit. > Correct? Yes. > Sorry for going back and forth, but I'm looking for a pattern here. You seem to have found it.