New Necropoll : Which cards do you consider broken ?

WIth all the ongoing and past discussions, I felt a need to address that question in a poll. You can answer at http://necrobones.free.fr, and / or mail more cards to add to the list at orph...@free.fr Orpheus, from his Mausoleum, Massilia.

One small precision : I have included only cards that many people have deemed "broken" ; I will include more only if enough people suggest the same cards. [ quoted text not captured ]

Orpheus wrote: > WIth all the ongoing and past discussions, I felt a need to address that > question in a poll. > > You can answer at http://necrobones.free.fr, and / or mail more cards to add > to the list at orph...@free.fr Anarch Revolt - annoying, not broken. Not really in the "spirit" of the game, but not broken. At least it makes games go fast. And makes Master Decks possible. Dreams of the Sphynx - undercosted, not broken. Protect Thine Own -yes broken. You get too much for very little. Needs higher cost, like sends your own same age or older vamp to torpor, tapped. Succubus Club - Also like Anarch Revolt, annoying but not broken. Also not in "Spirit" of the game. Unlike AR, it slooooooows games down too much. I like table talk, but Succubus Club is terrible. For just that reason, it needs rewriting. But not because it's broken. The rest of these ain't broken, and are within the "spirit" of the game. Baltimore Purge Dia De Los Muertos Direct Intervention Judgement : Camarilla Segregation Parity Shift Second Tradition (wha?) What about Eyes of the Dead? best - chris -- chris shorb <www.vtesinla.org> (A V:TES site) prince of torrance, california *** Into the abyss I'll fall - the eye of Horus Into the eyes of the night - watching me go Green is the cat's eye that glows - in this temple Enter the risen Osiris - risen again - Dickinson

"Chris Shorb" <chr...@vtesinla.org> wrote in message news:3FF130C0...@vtesinla.org... > > > Orpheus wrote: > > > WIth all the ongoing and past discussions, I felt a need to address that > > question in a poll. > > > > You can answer at http://necrobones.free.fr, and / or mail more cards to add > > to the list at orph...@free.fr > > Anarch Revolt - annoying, not broken. Not really in the "spirit" of the game, > but not broken. At least it makes games go fast. And makes Master Decks > possible. I always found that Anarch Revolt is in the spirit of the game since the early beginning. Anything that can do pool damage outside the "bleed" system is good imho.

<snip> Succubus Club - Also like Anarch Revolt, annoying but not broken. Also not in > "Spirit" of the game. Unlike AR, it slooooooows games down too much. I like > table talk, but Succubus Club is terrible. For just that reason, it needs > rewriting. But not because it's broken. > SC is only annoying and slowing down the game because people keep dealing with the owners of the SC. As people are still playing it, this means they are still finding targets to deal with. Also, they don't seem to realize that SC does not force you to trade, it enables you to do so. Lots of players I see, see a SC hit the table and start thinking about what they could give to the player controlling it, in steda of trying to get what they want, and in cases where they don't want anything, just skip the effort.. All of this on a side note though.I agree with everything here (about these cards NOT being broken), apart from the PTO view, but that's in another tread already, so.. Eyes of the dead?Pass me some of those illegal cigarettes, and add Tortured confession to it will you? ;-) Greetz Jo

Chris Shorb <chr...@vtesinla.org> wrote in message news:<3FF130C0...@vtesinla.org>... > Orpheus wrote: > > > WIth all the ongoing and past discussions, I felt a need to address that > > question in a poll. > > > > You can answer at http://necrobones.free.fr, and / or mail more cards to add > > to the list at orph...@free.fr > > Anarch Revolt - annoying, not broken. Not really in the "spirit" of the game, > but not broken. At least it makes games go fast. And makes Master Decks > possible. true > Dreams of the Sphynx - undercosted, not broken. true > Protect Thine Own -yes broken. You get too much for very little. Needs higher cost, like sends your own same age or older vamp to torpor, tapped. broken true. IC dont need a "out of combat creature kill card" neither do justicars need a downgraded still to usefull version. this is qyite a unique card. even anti-clancards aren't THAT strong. > Succubus Club - Also like Anarch Revolt, annoying but not broken. Also not in > "Spirit" of the game. Unlike AR, it slooooooows games down too much. I like > table talk, but Succubus Club is terrible. For just that reason, it needs > rewriting. But not because it's broken. true I put one in every deck "just to contest, yeah right" > The rest of these ain't broken, and are within the "spirit" of the game. > Baltimore Purge not true. IMO it IS broken. Let me explain. a none clan card which sends a vampire of each player to torpor is pretty random. this makes it possible for any non-combat deck to send 5 vampires (in a 5player game) to torpor with ONE card, all combat decks should be trown away just hearing this fact. yes this card makes me outragious. if I see this card played by my prey I usely suecide in advantadge of my predator. If Im crosstable and you are playing such a deck you better start eating my vamps as well because I will do anything to make you LOSE! It should be playable only once per game It should be clan restricted! It should cost pool or blood! maybe then, just maybe it is not broken. > Dia De Los Muertos true very dangerous card but has a good limitation > Direct Intervention true only vampires should intervene. but it is a defencive card not an offencive card > Judgement : Camarilla Segregation true. too random. why is it reprinted? should have a more easy burn-option > Parity Shift true. in a good deck it steals 5 pool from its pray. > Second Tradition (wha?) hmmm well sabbat has hungry coyote. you need cards to stop the eternal struggle. :) so my addition of "annoying but not broken" hungry coyote pentex subversion heidelburg castle week of nightmares palla grande just keep complaining Oortje

Oortje4ever <oortj...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Chris Shorb <chr...@vtesinla.org> wrote: >> Protect Thine Own -yes broken. You get too much for very little. >> Needs higher cost, like sends your own same age or older vamp >> to torpor, tapped. > > broken true. IC dont need a "out of combat creature kill card" > neither do justicars need a downgraded still to usefull version. > this is quite a unique card. even anti-clancards aren't THAT > strong. Out of Control 2 pool Master. Burn a Brujah antitribu with capacity below 6. Only one Out of Control can be played during a game. Interesting to compare and contrast OOC -- which costs 2 pool and can only be played once per game -- to PTO, eh? And PTO was created in Ancient Hearts, a year before the WOTC design team went nuts and created The Sabbat, and OOC. > Oortje Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

> Anarch Revolt - annoying, not broken. Not really in the "spirit" of the game, > but not broken. At least it makes games go fast. And makes Master Decks > possible. > Dreams of the Sphynx - undercosted, not broken. > Protect Thine Own -yes broken. You get too much for very little. Needs higher > cost, like sends your own same age or older vamp to torpor, tapped. > Succubus Club - Also like Anarch Revolt, annoying but not broken. Also not in > "Spirit" of the game. Unlike AR, it slooooooows games down too much. I like > table talk, but Succubus Club is terrible. For just that reason, it needs > rewriting. But not because it's broken. > > The rest of these ain't broken, and are within the "spirit" of the game. > Baltimore Purge > Dia De Los Muertos > Direct Intervention > Judgement : Camarilla Segregation > Parity Shift > Second Tradition (wha?) I agree with all you said, except that Judgement and Parity are way too powerful, and that DI is bothersome to me (see ongoing thread). I listed the cards that people seem to consider problematic, not just my personal choices. -- Orpheus, from his Mausoleum, Massilia [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3FF130C0...@vtesinla.org>, Chris Shorb <chr...@vtesinla.org> mumbled something about: >Orpheus wrote: > >> WIth all the ongoing and past discussions, I felt a need to address that >> question in a poll. >> >Anarch Revolt - annoying, not broken. Not really in the "spirit" of the game, >but not broken. At least it makes games go fast. And makes Master Decks >possible. AR is extremely disruptive to the game. It's hard to win with, because if anyone else has a fast offense deck you'll be blown off the table. But it also makes far more decks IMpossible than it makes possible. >Dreams of the Sphynx - undercosted, not broken. I'm not even sure it's undercosted, myself. It's super-good, but -any- deck can make effective use of it, so the risk of contesting becomes huge. >The rest of these ain't broken, and are within the "spirit" of the game. >Baltimore Purge More disruptive to the game than Anarch Revolt. All the effort spent making big guys playable is lost because of this card -- Cailean, Goratrix, etc. are the first ones Grave Robbed, even cross-table, because they're SO good. At least with Anarch Revolt you can Minion Tap your big guy and take actions. -- Derek Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music. It only stopped them hearing the distractions.

> >Anarch Revolt - annoying, not broken. Not really in the "spirit" of the game, > >but not broken. At least it makes games go fast. And makes Master Decks > >possible. > > AR is extremely disruptive to the game. It's hard to win with, because > if anyone else has a fast offense deck you'll be blown off the table. > But it also makes far more decks IMpossible than it makes possible. I think that AR should be made Unique, as is Antediluvian Awakening : that way, both would get played again, the effect would still ne interesting, but the ugly AR decks and the "disruptiveness" would get greatly impaired. The card isn't "broken" in and by itself, but the fact that you can have several in play at a time is a problem. > >Baltimore Purge > > More disruptive to the game than Anarch Revolt. All the effort spent > making big guys playable is lost because of this card -- Cailean, > Goratrix, etc. are the first ones Grave Robbed, even cross-table, > because they're SO good. > > At least with Anarch Revolt you can Minion Tap your big guy and take > actions. BP can be disruptive to the game, but I don't consider it broken, as it is so hard to play it effectively. It requires quite a setup, and gets the whole table against you, plus even if you send to torpor it doesn't mean you've won. [ quoted text not captured ]

"legbiter" <legb...@mailandnews.com> wrote in message news:22fea992.03123...@posting.google.com... > Chainsaw. Yeah right! it hoses that allmighty werewolf pack ! let's ban them both !

In message <3ff41587$0$1167$636a...@news.free.fr>, "Orpheus" <orph...@DEADSPAMfree.fr> mumbled something about: >> >Baltimore Purge >> >> More disruptive to the game than Anarch Revolt. All the effort spent >> making big guys playable is lost because of this card -- Cailean, >> Goratrix, etc. are the first ones Grave Robbed, even cross-table, >> because they're SO good. >> >> At least with Anarch Revolt you can Minion Tap your big guy and take >> actions. > >BP can be disruptive to the game, but I don't consider it broken, as it is >so hard to play it effectively. It requires quite a setup, and gets the >whole table against you, plus even if you send to torpor it doesn't mean >you've won. It takes only minimal setup to influence out Moncada and have a bunch of Freak Drives, BP, stealth, etc. in your deck. Pair with Aurora for maximum effect, and you should get two Grave Robbings and two diableries in one turn. (Grave Robbing doesn't have to happen at superior.) Possibly more, since you can Freak Drive and diablerize repeatedly if you don't have the GRs in hand... and there will be plenty of blood on everyone to pay for those Freaks. Sure, you don't win by sending everyone else's vamps to torpor. But you definitely make anyone playing with big guys lose, which is really the original point... and you DO win if you can send everyone's vamps to torpor and eat them, too. [ quoted text not captured ]

> >> >Baltimore Purge > >> > >> More disruptive to the game than Anarch Revolt. All the effort spent > >> making big guys playable is lost because of this card -- Cailean, > >> Goratrix, etc. are the first ones Grave Robbed, even cross-table, > >> because they're SO good. > >> > >> At least with Anarch Revolt you can Minion Tap your big guy and take > >> actions. > > > >BP can be disruptive to the game, but I don't consider it broken, as it is > >so hard to play it effectively. It requires quite a setup, and gets the > >whole table against you, plus even if you send to torpor it doesn't mean > >you've won. > > It takes only minimal setup to influence out Moncada and have a bunch of > Freak Drives, BP, stealth, etc. in your deck. Pair with Aurora for > maximum effect, and you should get two Grave Robbings and two diableries > in one turn. (Grave Robbing doesn't have to happen at superior.) > Possibly more, since you can Freak Drive and diablerize repeatedly if > you don't have the GRs in hand... and there will be plenty of blood on > everyone to pay for those Freaks. You also need to be ready to put them at 11-Cap for those Inner out there ; not to mention resist to rushes, bad votes, survive to big bleeders etc. Not so easy. > Sure, you don't win by sending everyone else's vamps to torpor. But you > definitely make anyone playing with big guys lose, which is really the > original point... and you DO win if you can send everyone's vamps to > torpor and eat them, too. As you say, it is more efficient when people play fatties ; and I think we all know that in big tournies people tend to play very small vampires. But of course, a BP deck is still a valid strategy. And can be table disruptive if played badly, but then any rush deck can be so too in its way. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3ff435b8$0$17409$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] Yes.. im so good damn tired of that chainsaw.. You cant play Werwolfe Pack or Hellhound decks if they dont ban the uber Chainsaw ;)

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3ff435b8$0$17409$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] Everytime i play my Werewolf pack deck som random d00d hasto play his UBER BROKEN chainsaw deck.. like what am i going to do when he plays whit broken cards that own my werewolfe packs 24/7??.. what did they smoke when they created the Chainsaw O_O heheheh :D

>Yes.. im so good damn tired of that chainsaw.. You cant play Werwolfe >Pack or Hellhound decks if they dont ban the uber Chainsaw ;) Hey there! Watch it boy! I've been playing a Hell Hound deck lately and it's actually won quite a few games! =P Halcyan 2

As it's only really important to identify brokenness when looking to errata or ban cards, my thoughts will be along those lines. >You can answer at http://necrobones.free.fr and / or mail more cards to add >to the list at orph...@free.fr The list (for reference): Anarch Revolt Baltimore Purge Dia De Los Muertos Direct Intervention Dreams of the Sphinx Judgment: Camarilla Segregation Parity Shift Protect Thine Own Second Tradition Succubus Club My problem with AR is that an AR deck means playing a different game from "normal" V:TES. Sure, there's room for breaking games' rules to provide variety, but the point of playing the game is to play the game. Thing with BP is that BP may be the only card in the game where you can take on an entire table of angry opponents it's so unbalancing. Why in the world is Dia on this list? J:CS is another card that is better termed unfair than broken. I'd like to see no hosers in CCGs; if we must have them in a CCG, then it's better to have ones so sucky that they will never see play. I'm somewhat surprised Succubus Club hasn't already been eliminated. It's such a bad effect conceptually and has caused such hostility and has added so little to the game. I find some things interesting. First, given how recently people were complaining about Anarch Revolt, that people aren't complaining about it anew. Maybe, people are just tired of doing so. Then, there are some cards missing that have been complained about. The one that most clearly comes to mind is Archon Investigation. It may be because the arguments haven't been recent, but this produced much debate in the past. Not that I think it's broken, stupid in what it does and because it's virtually necessary to the game only highlights a basic flaw in the game, but it's surprising that nobody has dredged it up yet. Another candidate would be Earth Meld. Guess people aren't much complaining about S:CE these days as the game continues to move against it. Too late in the game to do it in all likelihood, but it would be ideal if the game lacked any (easy) combat ends. One of the most annoying cards in existence is Sensory Deprivation. From the standpoint of randomly causing someone to lose with one effect, this ranks quite highly (and, thus, a comparison with PTO). I'm still not sold on Meddling not being another card along these lines. Never been enough copies floating around here and enough experimentation to see what it's really capable of. Vampire steal, as a class, has disproportionate swing possibilities. If I were to pick one card out of the bunch, I'd go with Spirit Marionette as the most broken. Not difficult to end someone's game with a deck built around it. If not broken, the unfairness of it is galling. There's the Dominate staple trio of Conditioning, Deflection, and Govern which people will occasionally bring up as being uberpowerful. As much as I don't like Conditioning, the text on Aire that talks about Toreador, or Foreshadowing, I don't think getting rid of Conditioning will have much impact. Can't say the same about Deflection, but I don't know that the game could handle the absence of easy bounce without a major overhaul. A friend of mine wants me to mention Social Ladder (if not because it's currently broken). I get his point about effects that are sufficiently combo-oriented that you always have to wonder about their future brokenness potential, but I think he finds SL way too interesting. Freak Drive is an interesting candidate in that I don't recall someone complaining about its brokenness, though I'm sure it has happened at some point in the past. Now, more relevant to winning than PTO and exceeding obnoxious are the seat switchers. As with other cards, e.g. AR, these work against the nature of the game, specifically by breaking predator/prey relationships. Cards that are producing a noticeable number of winners include Palla Grande and War Ghoul (more the former). Palla Grande is pretty ridiculous, especially given how strong some people think Week of Nightmares is when Week is so much week-er. Can a card be broken if it isn't one of the best cards in the game? That's another reason I don't like arguing about brokenness when deciding what cards to be rid of. Highly unfair and unpleasant cards won't necessarily be the best cards. The unfairness of cards such as Blood Doll, Wake, and The Barrens is sufficiently subtle as to not appear unfair.

I do not agree necessarily with all what you say, but I must admit your article is quite interesting. I like your analysis on "broken" and "seeming unfair"

Curevei expounded: > Can a card be broken if it isn't one of the best cards in the game? That's > another reason I don't like arguing about brokenness when deciding what cards > to be rid of. Highly unfair and unpleasant cards won't necessarily be the best > cards. The unfairness of cards such as Blood Doll, Wake, and The Barrens is > sufficiently subtle as to not appear unfair. This might be because they everyone can use them so they aren't in any way unfair. Their power is certainly known if not immediately obvious to the newcomer. (otherwise I mostly agree)

In message <MPG.1a5f9b875...@news.freeserve.com>, Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> mumbled something about: [ quoted text not captured ] Unfair cards generally read "You lose", with slight variations on text. Broken cards read "I win". Powerful cards read "Something good happens for me". Weak cards read "Something that doesn't matter happens." So now, assigning examples appropriately... Unfair card: Protect Thine Own. The victim loses. Broken card: RtI. Often meant "Gain a VP". Broken card: Golconda, old text. Usually meant "Gain this vampire's capacity in pool and refill this vampire", when paired with a Soul Gem and skill card (mmm, the old Minion Tap/Golconda Anson decks). Powerful card: Blood Doll. I gain an enormous amount of flexibility with regard to this vampire. Powerful card: Govern the Unaligned. Either I gain 3 pool and 3 transfers, or I bleed for 3. Powerful card: Wake. Provides the ability for the deck to conduct offense and defense at the same time. Weak card: Wave of Insanity. Tap all allies: so what? [ quoted text not captured ]

> My problem with AR is that an AR deck means playing a different game from > "normal" V:TES. Sure, there's room for breaking games' rules to provide > variety, but the point of playing the game is to play the game. Agreed. > Thing with BP > is that BP may be the only card in the game where you can take on an entire > table of angry opponents it's so unbalancing. Yes ; but still a hard one to pull off, for reasons mentionned before in this thread. > Why in the world is Dia on this > list? Because some people complained about it ; I wouldn't have included it as a personnal choice. > J:CS is another card that is better termed unfair than broken. I'd like > to see no hosers in CCGs; if we must have them in a CCG, then it's better to > have ones so sucky that they will never see play. Agreed. And no hoser at all is better still. Protect is another such hoser. But they are worse than Clan hosers, as the Sabbat and Indie equivalent don't exist (not saying I'd like to see them), and they are an incentive to play nothing but Camarilla, which goes against the variety of the game. > I'm somewhat surprised > Succubus Club hasn't already been eliminated. It's such a bad effect > conceptually and has caused such hostility and has added so little to the game. > > I find some things interesting. First, given how recently people were > complaining about Anarch Revolt, that people aren't complaining about it anew. I think the last (big !) thread on this subject wasn't so long ago ; and you'll notice it comes second in the answers on the necropoll as of now, so I guess people still don't like it very much... > Maybe, people are just tired of doing so. Then, there are some cards missing > that have been complained about. > > The one that most clearly comes to mind is Archon Investigation. It may be > because the arguments haven't been recent, but this produced much debate in the > past. Not that I think it's broken, stupid in what it does and because it's > virtually necessary to the game only highlights a basic flaw in the game, but > it's surprising that nobody has dredged it up yet. Yes, it highlights and counters a weakness of the game. To me, it is necessary for game balance : without it, there is no risk in bleeding at 7 every turn if you have something versus deflections. > Another candidate would be Earth Meld. Guess people aren't much complaining > about S:CE these days as the game continues to move against it. Too late in > the game to do it in all likelihood, but it would be ideal if the game lacked > any (easy) combat ends. Earth Meld isn't broken ; it's undercosted. I was very surprised to see that the new version didn't cost a blood right away, and that neither did Form of Mist. To my knowledge, these cards are the only S:CE in inferior that don't cost a blood, and I see no valid reason for it. It doesn't make a card broken (I tend to agree with Derek's classification), but undercosted is for sure. > One of the most annoying cards in existence is Sensory Deprivation. From the > standpoint of randomly causing someone to lose with one effect, this ranks > quite highly (and, thus, a comparison with PTO). Quite annoying, yes. Big, yes. But at least you have a chance to get your vampire back (banish or destroy the vampire, oust the controller...). And it doesn't aim at a special category of vampires, so it doesn't have the "unfairness" of PTO. I'm still not sold on > Meddling not being another card along these lines. Never been enough copies > floating around here and enough experimentation to see what it's really capable > of. Good, not ultimate. Makes the difference in the right decks ; doesn't make it broken IMHO. > Vampire steal, as a class, has disproportionate swing possibilities. If I were > to pick one card out of the bunch, I'd go with Spirit Marionette as the most > broken. Not difficult to end someone's game with a deck built around it. If > not broken, the unfairness of it is galling. There are ways to counter it, although it's harder in the beginning of the game (when you get your vampires out) ; it requires a scarce, and as with all these cards you can't have the stolen vamp during your Master phase, which *would* be broken (see old Mind Rape ?). > There's the Dominate staple trio of Conditioning, Deflection, and Govern which > people will occasionally bring up as being uberpowerful. As much as I don't > like Conditioning, the text on Aire that talks about Toreador, or > Foreshadowing, I don't think getting rid of Conditioning will have much impact. > Can't say the same about Deflection, but I don't know that the game could > handle the absence of easy bounce without a major overhaul. Good, or "must-include" cards aren't broken. Having a Conditionning or a Deflection, or even a bunch of them, in your deck doesn't allow you to win right away against every deck which doesn't pack them. So it ain't broken. > A friend of mine wants me to mention Social Ladder (if not because it's > currently broken). I get his point about effects that are sufficiently > combo-oriented that you always have to wonder about their future brokenness > potential, but I think he finds SL way too interesting. > > Freak Drive is an interesting candidate in that I don't recall someone > complaining about its brokenness, though I'm sure it has happened at some point > in the past. Very good card, makes the difference ; once more, not broken. Kiss or Rā could be a better candidate if we're looking in Fortitude, but the recent wave of For vampires diminished its usefulness a little. > Now, more relevant to winning than PTO and exceeding obnoxious are the seat > switchers. As with other cards, e.g. AR, these work against the nature of the > game, specifically by breaking predator/prey relationships. Very good and disturbing cards, yes. Not easy to play, though (intercept, vote lock, anti-vote cards, and ultimately... making the right choices !!). > Cards that are producing a noticeable number of winners include Palla Grande > and War Ghoul (more the former). Palla Grande is pretty ridiculous, especially > given how strong some people think Week of Nightmares is when Week is so much > week-er. Very good, table-winning cards. Broken ? > Can a card be broken if it isn't one of the best cards in the game? Maybe Derek's "unfair" or the terms "disruptive" and "undercosted" would be more appropriate for some of the cards mentionned. > That's > another reason I don't like arguing about brokenness when deciding what cards > to be rid of. Highly unfair and unpleasant cards won't necessarily be the best > cards. The unfairness of cards such as Blood Doll, Wake, and The Barrens is > sufficiently subtle as to not appear unfair. Right. Now with my personnal hate list : banish or errate : - Protect Thine Own - Judgement : CS - Rötschreck You'll notice all the cards fall into the "unfair" category. So does Kiss of Rā, which would come next in my hate list, but at least you have the choice of not blocking a minion with FOR, which is more than can be said of the other cards. As a vampire, I'd also include Arika : her special just counters too many interesting deck ideas. raise the cost of : - Earth Meld (1 blood) - Form of Mist (1 blood, +1 for continue action effect) - Dreams of the Sphynx (at 2 pool, it would still be useful in some decks but would see less light of day...) not sure about : Direct Intervention (see related thread), but it does pose some problems to me ; maybe it would be the only "broken" card for me, as it can change a "win" to a "lose" in no time. All the other cards in this fine game pose no problem to me (except of course Twisting the Knife and Eyes of the Dead...). ;-) [ quoted text not captured ]

Orpheus wrote: > raise the cost of : > - Earth Meld (1 blood) There are so many other brutal things than protean can do--why increase the cost of Earth Meld? I mean, yeah, Majesty got whacked, but Presence isn't a combat discipline, and Presence comes with bleed modifiers, so bleed modifiers and free S:CE = very, very dangerous weenie deck. Free Earth Meld does, um, what, exactly? It makes the Gangrel really good at wall decks. That don't win much. And that is pretty much it. > - Form of Mist (1 blood, +1 for continue action effect) The current cost really slows down weenie protean decks that were really good previously. Seems unlikely that it needs to be costlier. > - Dreams of the Sphynx (at 2 pool, it would still be useful in some decks > but would see less light of day...) Still unconvinced that the card needs any change at all. Much like Ian Forrestal, it is too good, but small enough efect wise that it doesn't really matter. As long as no cards are built with Dreams as a justification, and it remains an outlier, it hardle seems necessary to do anything about it at all. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "Punk rock's been pretty good to me for twenty years. It's my year to give back: I'm dedicating the next year of my life to fucking the Bush administration." -Fat Mike

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 18:23:42 +0100, "Orpheus" <orph...@DEADSPAMfree.fr> scrawled: > > >Earth Meld isn't broken ; it's undercosted. I was very surprised to see that >the new version didn't cost a blood right away, and that neither did Form of >Mist. To my knowledge, these cards are the only S:CE in inferior that don't >cost a blood, and I see no valid reason for it. Form of Mist is a Dodge at inferior. There are lots of free dodges at inferior. :) and as for valid reason: if it's not hurting the game, don't change it. salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

> On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 18:23:42 +0100, "Orpheus" > <orph...@DEADSPAMfree.fr> scrawled: > >> >> >> Earth Meld isn't broken ; it's undercosted. I was very surprised to see that >> the new version didn't cost a blood right away, and that neither did Form of >> Mist. To my knowledge, these cards are the only S:CE in inferior that don't >> cost a blood, and I see no valid reason for it. The reason is context. Majesty (the poster child for "S:CE needs to cost a blood") comes in the context of a non cobat related discipline that also comes with bleed increasers--having both bleed increasers and significant combat defense means that a single discipline (i.e. weenie) Presence deck is going to be very effective, in terms of ousting prey and gaing VPs. The same can't be said for a single discipline Protean deck--no bleed increaser. And Protean comes with a lot of deadly combat--if your protean packing opponent does nothing but play Earth Meld, you are probably better off. It isn't a problem that Earth Meld doesn't cost a blood. Thus, it doesn't need to be changed to cost a blood. [ quoted text not captured ]

> >> Earth Meld isn't broken ; it's undercosted. I was very surprised to see that > >> the new version didn't cost a blood right away, and that neither did Form of > >> Mist. To my knowledge, these cards are the only S:CE in inferior that don't > >> cost a blood, and I see no valid reason for it. > > The reason is context. Majesty (the poster child for "S:CE needs to cost a > blood") comes in the context of a non cobat related discipline that also > comes with bleed increasers--having both bleed increasers and significant > combat defense means that a single discipline (i.e. weenie) Presence deck is > going to be very effective, in terms of ousting prey and gaing VPs. > > The same can't be said for a single discipline Protean deck--no bleed > increaser. And Protean comes with a lot of deadly combat--if your protean > packing opponent does nothing but play Earth Meld, you are probably better > off. > > It isn't a problem that Earth Meld doesn't cost a blood. Thus, it doesn't > need to be changed to cost a blood. > > Peter D Bakija After having given it a few thoughts, I agree with the last three posts. And yes, the errata on FoM has reduced the Gangrel Weenies' power. But do consider that some lethal combos can be done with Protean and some bleed discipline (Dom for instance). As for the Dreams, I hesitated to propose a raise in cost ; I don't feel like it's broken or really undercosted, but I do dislike its "must-include" aftertaste : you'll all have understood by now that I'd rather see various cards depending on the deck you're playing rather than the same cards over and over in nearly every deck. -- Orpheus "This month, at Mc Giovannix : Our new Necromenu includes - 1 Double Zombix - 1 Brainiax necrodwich with guts spaghettix - 6 Necronuggets with a variety of blood sauce All of that for only 6,66 euros !!! At Giovannix, dead food stays dead. Most of the time."

Orpheus <orph...@DEADSPAMfree.fr> wrote: > After having given it a few thoughts, I agree with the last three > posts. And yes, the errata on FoM has reduced the Gangrel Weenies' > power. But do consider that some lethal combos can be done with > Protean and some bleed discipline (Dom for instance). Consider the cost of the "Protean and some bleed discipline" vampires you're going to need for this so-called "lethal combo" deck. Taking just three minutes in ELDB: pro/dom vampires avg cost = 7.96 pro/dem vampires avg cost = 9 pro/pre vampires avg cost = 7.38 This small amoutn of data *seems* to lean toward the fact that FoM/Earth Meld are now correctly costed, doesn't it? > Orpheus > > "This month, at Mc Giovannix : > Our new Necromenu includes > - 1 Double Zombix > - 1 Brainiax necrodwich with guts spaghettix > - 6 Necronuggets with a variety of blood sauce > > All of that for only 6,66 euros !!! Dude! That's like US$8.45! You can usually get THREE combo meals for that much! Are you trying to say that a necro-meal is three times better than a regular McMeal? :) [ quoted text not captured ]

> > After having given it a few thoughts, I agree with the last three > > posts. And yes, the errata on FoM has reduced the Gangrel Weenies' > > power. But do consider that some lethal combos can be done with > > Protean and some bleed discipline (Dom for instance). > > Consider the cost of the "Protean and some bleed discipline" vampires you're > going to need for this so-called "lethal combo" deck. Taking just three > minutes in ELDB: > > pro/dom vampires > avg cost = 7.96 > > pro/dem vampires > avg cost = 9 > > pro/pre vampires > avg cost = 7.38 > > This small amoutn of data *seems* to lean toward the fact that FoM/Earth > Meld are now correctly costed, doesn't it? Well, they are still the best and cheapest S:CE in the game. But I get your point. > > Orpheus > > > > "This month, at Mc Giovannix : > > Our new Necromenu includes > > - 1 Double Zombix > > - 1 Brainiax necrodwich with guts spaghettix > > - 6 Necronuggets with a variety of blood sauce > > > > All of that for only 6,66 euros !!! > > Dude! That's like US$8.45! You can usually get THREE combo meals for that > much! Are you trying to say that a necro-meal is three times better than a > regular McMeal? :) Well, of course !! Just ask any regular zombie where they'd rather go eat (I mean, not the customers...). ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

"Orpheus" <orph...@DEADSPAMfree.fr> wrote in message news:<3ff01ea8$0$7153$626a...@news.free.fr>... > WIth all the ongoing and past discussions, I felt a need to address that > question in a poll. > > You can answer at http://necrobones.free.fr, and / or mail more cards to add > to the list at orph...@free.fr > > Orpheus, from his Mausoleum, Massilia. I don't feel any of these cards broken, and i think that if it is a list of "very strong or very strange" effects you are missing the cards that i hate to see most when played by others. LifeBoon and seatchangers. I see these cards as more "disruptive" then, i don't know, AR or BP. All your hard work destroyed, and not only that, often all your hard work is said "thank you" for when someone else takes your oust. and i don't even find these broken. W

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004, Orpheus wrote: > banish or errate : > - Protect Thine Own > - Judgement : CS > - Rötschreck I agree with the first two, but not the last. Rotschreck is a strong card, but two things keep it from being broken to my mind: mainly, that it is countered by the very broadly useful Psyche, and other less often used anti-S:CE cards. Secondly, it consumes a master card slot, and there are plenty of powerful effects generated by master cards. Lastly, it is an OOT master and there is currently no way to play more than one of those between your turns. The other two are, as has been pointed out, a big stick upside the head for attempting to play the more difficult sects and clans. David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 david.che...@duke.edu

Orpheus wrote: > After having given it a few thoughts, I agree with the last three posts. And > yes, the errata on FoM has reduced the Gangrel Weenies' power. But do > consider that some lethal combos can be done with Protean and some bleed > discipline (Dom for instance). Sure, but it requires pretty large vampires. And isn't going to be any more effective than simply not getting blocked in the first place (i.e. playing Obfuscate instead of Protean...) [ quoted text not captured ]

Top 7: Eyes of the Dead [Should Cost 1 blood and be usable against any action, and ] [be uncommon if been like this] Mummify [Combat Ends, My vampire goes to torpor and can't bring himself out] [of the torpor. Why playing this 'shitty' card with the setites if they] [have presence ?? Great Isn't ? ] Tortured Confession [Oh! Looking the opposing minion's controller if he goes to torpor!! Nice !!] [Why don't pay one more blood and use Decapitate ?? ] Corporal Reservoir [Hmmm ... its space should be replaced with a Flak Jacket] Hell Hound [2 pool for this ?? I can't belive ... ] Death Pact [ONE card to change ONE point of damage to Normal.] [I prefer teach fortitude to my vampires ...] Fire Dance [As Above ... ] Spectro VEKN Prince of Osasco, Brasil

Spectro wrote: > Top 7: Just pointing out that in general, around these parts, cards that are called "broken" and are the subject of discussion for fixing them, are generally the cards that are too powerful, rather than too weak--cards that are too powerful tend to dominate play and compromise the game. Cards that are too weak tend to just get ignored and generally replaced with something more effective later. Which is fine. > > Eyes of the Dead > [Should Cost 1 blood and be usable against any action, and ] > [be uncommon if been like this] Yup. Crud. > > Mummify > [Combat Ends, My vampire goes to torpor and can't bring himself out] > [of the torpor. Why playing this 'shitty' card with the setites if they] > [have presence ?? Great Isn't ? ] This card, while total garbage currently, wasn't actually *that* bad when it came out, when combined with Fame (which 'caused your *prey* to lose pool when your Famous vampire went to torpor). > > Tortured Confession > [Oh! Looking the opposing minion's controller if he goes to torpor!! Nice !!] > [Why don't pay one more blood and use Decapitate ?? ] Yeah. This? The worst card ever. Not 'cause it is significantly worse than many other cards, but because it is sooo bad and takes so much language to describe the badness. > > Corporal Reservoir > [Hmmm ... its space should be replaced with a Flak Jacket] Free. Master Card (i.e. doesn't take an action). Flexible. Not the best, but certainly has potential. > > Hell Hound > [2 pool for this ?? I can't belive ... ] Hey--in booster draft, this guy is *gold*. [ quoted text not captured ]

jacar...@icqmail.com (Spectro) wrote in message news:<8e399b49.04010...@posting.google.com>... > Corporal Reservoir > [Hmmm ... its space should be replaced with a Flak Jacket] > My !Tremere Black Hand/Burst of Sunlight/Rotschreck deck begs to differ. -sleeve

"sleeveboy" <sleev...@yahoo.com> wrote > > > Corporal Reservoir > > [Hmmm ... its space should be replaced with a Flak Jacket] > > > > My !Tremere Black Hand/Burst of Sunlight/Rotschreck deck begs to differ. I agree that it's a good card. A lot of the BH vampires have Potence. Use CP to prevent damage and then Disarm. Pretty easy, and only requires one card (the Disarm) in your hand. Cheers, WES

[ quoted text not captured ] Nice list, but I think none of those cards are as broken as Jackal. Sneak past all the Setite and Assamite wall decks for 1 blood? Oh yeah! Matt Morgan

jacar...@icqmail.com (Spectro) wrote in message news:<8e399b49.04010...@posting.google.com>... > Corporal Reservoir > [Hmmm ... its space should be replaced with a Flak Jacket] I take it you don't play with Life in the City either? Corporal Reservoir is one of the best reasons to play Black Hand I've found.

jacar...@icqmail.com (Spectro) wrote in message You were doing ok to start... > > Corporal Reservoir > [Hmmm ... its space should be replaced with a Flak Jacket] > What?? This card is great. Sure, you need to be playing Black Hand, but if you are you can stuff your deck with these. Triffle. Like Life In the City (which is also great) only stronger in many ways. Free prevent or blood gain, can be played on a full vampire, can be stacked, can be "reloaded" if you seen the need for future prevent (like agg damage on the table) or will be refilling soon (say, Giant's Blood in hand etc...). Much better than a Flack Jacket (Costs action and pool. Won't give you blood.) Might be competing for slots with Leather Jacket, but is more versatile and has advantages there as well. > Hell Hound > [2 pool for this ?? I can't belive ... ] > Ok, not great. But lord knows there are worse cards than that (Code of Milan Suspended is a personal fav...). -Ben Swainbank

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote in message news:20040101223306...@mb-m26.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Yeah, Anarch Revolt was complained about ad infinitum pretty recently. I could complain about it some more, but it seems like it shouldn't be necessary to go over that again, already. :-) > The one that most clearly comes to mind is Archon Investigation. It may be > because the arguments haven't been recent, but this produced much debate in the > past. Not that I think it's broken, stupid in what it does and because it's > virtually necessary to the game only highlights a basic flaw in the game, but > it's surprising that nobody has dredged it up yet. Archon Investigation is an obviously "wrong" effect, yet the thing it hoses is so close to "wrongness" itself that a lot of people probably don't mind. And it's often not better for the AI-playing Methuselah than Deflection, which is probably why it's not actually seen all that much. > Another candidate would be Earth Meld. Guess people aren't much complaining > about S:CE these days as the game continues to move against it. Too late in > the game to do it in all likelihood, but it would be ideal if the game lacked > any (easy) combat ends. Earth Meld is nearly okay, I think, because it's linked to a one-clan discipline, in a clan that doesn't have any natural ousting-payload disciplines. It's still overpowered, but not probably to the level of needing errata. (Of course, Majesty probably wasn't either, to the level of needing errata, IMO, although the shift toward depowering S:CE isn't something I would *complain* about... :-) > One of the most annoying cards in existence is Sensory Deprivation. From the > standpoint of randomly causing someone to lose with one effect, this ranks > quite highly (and, thus, a comparison with PTO). I'm still not sold on > Meddling not being another card along these lines. Never been enough copies > floating around here and enough experimentation to see what it's really capable > of. You're right that Sensory Deprivation is annoying enough that it shouldn't exist. Or at least it should only be able to target younger vampires (like Reality). Meddling of Semsith probably *is* also annoying enough that it shouldn't exist. My take on it has never been that it isn't a strong effect, or one that's really annoying to its target, but merely that I don't think it helps the Meddling player win enough to be very worthwhile. That is, I personally don't find it helpful enough to me, most of the time, to be worth the -1 hand size. > Vampire steal, as a class, has disproportionate swing possibilities. If I were > to pick one card out of the bunch, I'd go with Spirit Marionette as the most > broken. Not difficult to end someone's game with a deck built around it. If > not broken, the unfairness of it is galling. Yes, vampire stealing is awfully nasty. Spirit Marionette is probably as unfair as a lot of things. It's a little surprising it was created, considering that Mind Rape was depowered a *lot* not that long before. > There's the Dominate staple trio of Conditioning, Deflection, and Govern which > people will occasionally bring up as being uberpowerful. As much as I don't > like Conditioning, the text on Aire that talks about Toreador, or > Foreshadowing, I don't think getting rid of Conditioning will have much impact. > Can't say the same about Deflection, but I don't know that the game could > handle the absence of easy bounce without a major overhaul. The major overhaul has some kind of appeal as an intellectual exercise. It's probably way too late to actually *do* it to the game, but it would be "nice" (at least from my point of view) if the game had been done slightly differently in the first place. > A friend of mine wants me to mention Social Ladder (if not because it's > currently broken). I get his point about effects that are sufficiently > combo-oriented that you always have to wonder about their future brokenness > potential, but I think he finds SL way too interesting. I don't see any serious potential for breaking Social Ladder. I'd need to see some motivation for that idea... it nets you no blood, and costs you a vampire in play. Where's the killer combo? > Freak Drive is an interesting candidate in that I don't recall someone > complaining about its brokenness, though I'm sure it has happened at some point > in the past. Freak Drive is probably overpowered, but it's not especially unfair or broken under No Repeat Actions (without NRA it was pretty ridiculous and I think people were aware of it). > Now, more relevant to winning than PTO and exceeding obnoxious are the seat > switchers. As with other cards, e.g. AR, these work against the nature of the > game, specifically by breaking predator/prey relationships. Yeah, those can't have been a good idea either. As someone else mentioned, Life Boon (VP stealing, potentially) is probably too big an effect for a single card as well. > Cards that are producing a noticeable number of winners include Palla Grande > and War Ghoul (more the former). Palla Grande is pretty ridiculous, especially > given how strong some people think Week of Nightmares is when Week is so much > week-er. Palla Grande doesn't give +1 strength, but it's true that it doesn't have any drawbacks, either. But Week is probably more important to the game in that the !Toreador can bleed heavily with Presence without it, while the Ravnos don't have nearly as much good +bleed available to them outside of Week. > Can a card be broken if it isn't one of the best cards in the game? That's > another reason I don't like arguing about brokenness when deciding what cards > to be rid of. Highly unfair and unpleasant cards won't necessarily be the best > cards. The unfairness of cards such as Blood Doll, Wake, and The Barrens is > sufficiently subtle as to not appear unfair. They're not "unfair" in the sense of Derek's definition, but they are certainly "overpowered" in the sense of doing a lot more for you than other comparable cards might. I think you're arguing here that a game shouldn't have "staple" cards if it's avoidable - and in these cases, yes, it probably is. Josh rambling at length, but without substance

>I don't see any serious potential for breaking Social Ladder. I'd need >to see some motivation for that idea... it nets you no blood, and costs >you a vampire in play. Where's the killer combo? Bill goes on about multiphasic decks. Early in the game, you bring out cheaper dudes to do something then swap them out for later game stuff, with the added benefit of any screw vampire effects, e.g. Fame, are gone. Further, while we haven't checked the validity of combos, there might be ones with Bauble, Toreador Grand Ball, and whatnot. Anyway, the point wasn't that it's currently broken, but that any card that does something particularly unusual may end up being part of a broken combo. >I think you're arguing here that a game >shouldn't have "staple" cards if it's avoidable - and in these cases, >yes, it probably is. I have no problems with cards that end up in a variety of decks; in fact, I think it's preferable for cards to show up in more than one archetype as cards only good in one archetype tend towards the "too good/too bad". But, I think staple cards, cards that show up in some ridiculously high percentage of good decks, only hurt CCGs by decreasing deck variety and by limiting tech opportunities.

In article <btf8nu$6lhg2$1...@ID-121616.news.uni-berlin.de>, jtdu...@yahoo.com says... > Archon Investigation is an obviously "wrong" effect, yet the thing it > hoses is so close to "wrongness" itself that a lot of people probably > don't mind. And it's often not better for the AI-playing Methuselah > than Deflection, which is probably why it's not actually seen all that > much. The other thing is, the opportunity cost for AI is enormous and it's solely defensive. Someone else has to do something (to you) for it to ever be played. That and it's goddamn hysterical when it goes off. > Earth Meld is nearly okay, I think, because it's linked to a one-clan > discipline, in a clan that doesn't have any natural ousting-payload > disciplines. It's still overpowered, but not probably to the level of > needing errata. (Of course, Majesty probably wasn't either, to the > level of needing errata, IMO, although the shift toward depowering S:CE > isn't something I would *complain* about... :-) Agreed on all points for Earth Meld. Majesty's old printing wallpapered another card in the same discipline, while Earth Meld did not. Protean is also a fairly combat-heavy discipline, so the need for Earth Meld as a defense card is lessened. > You're right that Sensory Deprivation is annoying enough that it > shouldn't exist. Or at least it should only be able to target younger > vampires (like Reality). But... but... the picture's so cool... > Yes, vampire stealing is awfully nasty. Spirit Marionette is probably > as unfair as a lot of things. It's a little surprising it was created, > considering that Mind Rape was depowered a *lot* not that long before. I find Mind Rape to be a lot worse. At the very least, SM can only be played to steal by 2 vamps in the game (barring Vial or Pact silliness). I think the commonality of it contributes more to its power than anything. If Mind Rape were uncommon... I think that was a case of WotC making the powercard rare. How many times would you actually pick Slaughtering the Herd over MR? > The major overhaul has some kind of appeal as an intellectual exercise. > It's probably way too late to actually *do* it to the game, but it would > be "nice" (at least from my point of view) if the game had been done > slightly differently in the first place. At the very least, the distribution of power bleed and the best bleed defense probably shouldn't have been in the same basket. > Freak Drive is probably overpowered, but it's not especially unfair or > broken under No Repeat Actions (without NRA it was pretty ridiculous and > I think people were aware of it). It's overpowered to some extent because untapping is a fairly rare and powerful effect. On the other hand, fortitude wouldn't be nearly as good without it. > Yeah, those can't have been a good idea either. As someone else > mentioned, Life Boon (VP stealing, potentially) is probably too big an > effect for a single card as well. Somewhat agreed. Life Boon is a really neat card until you get hosed by it. > rambling at length, but without substance Someone with webspace and a lot of free time should probably set up a page for these... -- -Snapcase

jacar...@icqmail.com (Spectro) wrote in message news:<8e399b49.04010...@posting.google.com>... > Corporal Reservoir > [Hmmm ... its space should be replaced with a Flak Jacket] Its a nice card, !tremer whit burst of sunlight tech ;)

Joshua Duffin <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Meddling of Semsith probably *is* also annoying enough that it > shouldn't exist. My take on it has never been that it isn't a strong > effect, or one that's really annoying to its target, but merely that > I don't think it helps the Meddling player win enough to be very > worthwhile. Every single time that Jeff Thompson (Lasombra) has successfully gotten it into play, he has gotten a GW. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Now, are we to attribute that to the skill of Jeff Thompson, or to the ridiculously powerful effect, upon most decks, of Meddling? Maybe he should chime in here, since I only know this to be true up through July 2003, but last I heard it was like 8 GW in a row or something. > Josh > rambling at length, but without substance Don't put yourself down, dude. You always speak with 'substance'. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

Kevin M. wrote: > Now, are we to attribute that to the skill of Jeff Thompson, or to the > ridiculously powerful effect, upon most decks, of Meddling? While I'm perfectly happy to attribute it to Jeff, I'm pretty certain that I *was* the ground floor of "Meddling is wrong!" :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

Kevin M. wrote: > Joshua Duffin <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>Meddling of Semsith probably *is* also annoying enough that it >>shouldn't exist. My take on it has never been that it isn't a strong >>effect, or one that's really annoying to its target, but merely that >>I don't think it helps the Meddling player win enough to be very >>worthwhile. > > > Every single time that Jeff Thompson (Lasombra) has successfully gotten it > into play, he has gotten a GW. > > EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. > > Now, are we to attribute that to the skill of Jeff Thompson, or to the > ridiculously powerful effect, upon most decks, of Meddling? TTBOMK, Jeff's tone on that subject has been one of: Getting it into play is a measure of having vote control. Having vote control leads to winning for that deck, based largely on the effect the other referendums he calls have. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote in message news:oNJKb.426022$J77.31509@fed1read07... > Joshua Duffin <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Meddling of Semsith probably *is* also annoying enough that it > > shouldn't exist. My take on it has never been that it isn't a strong > > effect, or one that's really annoying to its target, but merely that > > I don't think it helps the Meddling player win enough to be very > > worthwhile. > > Every single time that Jeff Thompson (Lasombra) has successfully gotten it > into play, he has gotten a GW. > > EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Except at least once (in a game I played with him quite some time ago now - it was mentioned on the newsgroup). I think LSJ's right that Jeff wasn't saying so much that Meddling by itself won him those games as that when he was doing well (could call and pass votes), Meddling was a good one to have, and helped him win. > Now, are we to attribute that to the skill of Jeff Thompson, or to the > ridiculously powerful effect, upon most decks, of Meddling? > > Maybe he should chime in here, since I only know this to be true up through > July 2003, but last I heard it was like 8 GW in a row or something. Powerful and "plain brown wrong", yah, but I don't find it to make me win. Obviously others have had different experiences with it. Trey still likes the card, and resists my attempts to talk him out of putting it in decks. :-) > Don't put yourself down, dude. You always speak with 'substance'. :) Yes, there is definitely some kind of 'substance' involved. :-) Josh all hopped up on coffee

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote in message news:20040106192137...@mb-m10.aol.com... [Social Ladder] > Bill goes on about multiphasic decks. Early in the game, you bring out cheaper > dudes to do something then swap them out for later game stuff, with the added > benefit of any screw vampire effects, e.g. Fame, are gone. Further, while we > haven't checked the validity of combos, there might be ones with Bauble, > Toreador Grand Ball, and whatnot. > > Anyway, the point wasn't that it's currently broken, but that any card that > does something particularly unusual may end up being part of a broken combo. Ah, I see... kind of like Sibyl's Tongue. ;-) The TGB combo is valid. I don't know if it's all that worthwhile - if you Social Ladder the tapped vamp, you lose the ability to have multiple TGBs using the same tapped vamp, and a Blood Doll would give you (over a few turns, perhaps) about the same pool-recouping potential as Social Ladder. The Bauble combo works too. That might be more worthwhile, although it seems like the best you can do is save 5 pool (in exchange for 2 blood) on an Assault Rifle and then trade in the remaining blood on the Baubled vamp onto a new vamp; the net savings there is around 3 pool? You're right, there might be some other decent combos. It just doesn't seem like there are enough of them for any really abusive uses of Social Ladder to exist... yet. :-) > I have no problems with cards that end up in a variety of decks; in fact, I > think it's preferable for cards to show up in more than one archetype as cards > only good in one archetype tend towards the "too good/too bad". But, I think > staple cards, cards that show up in some ridiculously high percentage of good > decks, only hurt CCGs by decreasing deck variety and by limiting tech > opportunities. Yeah, like Blood Doll? Might've been interesting if instead of Blood Doll there were a variety of more- and less-like Blood Doll masters that required, say, a particular discipline (on the target vamp) to put them in play? Josh coming soon to a "dog poo: the eternal struggle" near you!

Curevei expounded: > Anyway, the point wasn't that it's currently broken, but that any card that > does something particularly unusual may end up being part of a broken combo. I see waht you mean but I hate the philosophy. What I want from new cards is new ideas and unusual effects. I would much rather have people work at balancing them (and errata them if necessary) than just not take the risk. > >I think you're arguing here that a game > >shouldn't have "staple" cards if it's avoidable - and in these cases, > >yes, it probably is. > > I have no problems with cards that end up in a variety of decks; in fact, I > think it's preferable for cards to show up in more than one archetype as cards > only good in one archetype tend towards the "too good/too bad". But, I think > staple cards, cards that show up in some ridiculously high percentage of good > decks, only hurt CCGs by decreasing deck variety and by limiting tech > opportunities. I agree which is why I dislike previous argument so much.