rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Q: [LSJ] Stealing Blood

8 messages from 6 participants · 12 November 1996 – 18 November 1996
original thread on Google Groups

James Hamblin

I know people ask this all the time, but I never remember... what are the rules for stealing blood. Can you use it to prevent damage? What if you have no blood, but steal 1 while getting punched for 1? What if you are at capacity in the same situation? Thanks. James -- +-------------------+----------------------+--------------------------+ | James E. Hamblin | Cornell University | "Purple is a fruit." | | je...@cornell.edu | Senior Math/CS Major | -- Homer Simpson | +-------------------+----------------------+--------------------------+

L. Scott Johnson

James Hamblin <je...@cornell.edu> writes: >I know people ask this all the time, but I never remember... what are >the rules for stealing blood. Can you use it to prevent damage? What >if you have no blood, but steal 1 while getting punched for 1? What if >you are at capacity in the same situation? 1) Blood can't prevent damage - it can be used to heal damage (non-aggravated), or to prevent destruction from aggravated damage. But, yes, stolen blood acts just like normal blood. You can use it to heal damage or prevent destruction on the same round in which it is stolen. 2 & 3) Are resolved by performing the strike resolution in two sub-phases: Apply strike and Heal Damage. During the apply strike sub-phase, all effects of the strikes are resolved (but damage is merely noted - no blood is burned to heal/prevent destruction at this time). At the end of this sub-phase, if a vampire has more blood than his capacity, the excess drains off, as normal. Then, during the Heal Damage sub-phase, blood is burned to heal damage or prevent destruction. (So, if you steal 1 while at zero and get punched for one, you use the stolen blood to heal the damage done by the punch. If you are at capacity and steal 1 while getting punched for one, the stolen blood drains off before you heal the damage, so you end up at one less than capacity). Here's the Combat Timing Outline (from the Complete Rules Outline): ============================================================================== V. HOW TO RESOLVE A COMBAT (8) [15] -------------------------------- NOTE: If one of the Minions involved in the Combat is a Vampire in Torpor, then Combat does NOT occur. If the opposing Minion is a ready Vampire, then he has the opportunity to Diablerize. If the opposing Minion is also a Vampire in Torpor, or is an Ally, then Combat does NOT occur and nothing happens. [precedent set by blocking a 'Leave Torpor' action and by blocking a 'Rapid Healing' action -LSJ] NOTE: You can't use combat cards if you're not involved in the combat. [TOM] NOTE: You can only play damage prevention cards during step D.2.b. [RTR] A. Round begins. Each round begins at close range. (:21) B. Play Combat cards or use Combat effects of cards in play. 1. Acting Minion, then Blocking Minion, then other Methuselahs clockwise from Acting Methuselah may use Combat effects before establishing range. 2. Repeat step 1 until no Methuselah wishes to use effects. C. Establish range. (21) [15.1] 1. Acting Minion may use a Maneuver to set range to long. 2. If Acting Minion did not use a Maneuver then Blocking may use a Maneuver to set range to long. 3. If either Minion used a Maneuver, then use the following procedure: a. Opposing Minion has option to use a Maneuver to cancel the Maneuver. b. If the Maneuver was canceled then the Minion who played it has an option to play another Maneuver to make the range long again. c. Repeat a and b above until a Minion does not Maneuver. NOTE: Only one Weapon/Strike card may be used to Maneuver by a Minion. d. If there is an uncanceled Maneuver, then the range is long. 4. If a weapon or a strike card is used to Maneuver, the minion using the maneuver must use that card for his first strike of the round. [15.1] D. Strikes. (8.1) [15.1] 1. Minions announce their strikes (and the targets, where applicable). a. Acting Minion announces Strike and Target before Blocking Minion does. b. Non-ranged offensive strikes can only target the opposing Minion. c. Ranged offensive strikes can target the opposing Minion or, if the range is long, one of his Retainers. (20.1) d. Non-ammo Damage modifiers must be played now to be effective. [RTR] 2. Resolve Strikes. a. Strikes resolve in the following order. If both strikes are in the same class, then they resolve simultaneously. [15.3] EXCEPTION: if both strikes are Strike: Combat Ends, then the acting minion's strike resolves first (nullifying the defender's). [RTR] i. Strike: Combat Ends. (8.3) (Go to step F) ii. Strike: Dodge. (8.3) (Cancel the opposing strike's effect(s) on the dodging minion and his Equipment, but not his Retainers). NOTE: Damage to Retainers can be prevented with cards (20.1) that say that they can prevent damage to retainers. [RTR] (12) [10] iii. Any strike done with First Strike. (resolve steps b-d before moving on to step iv). (8.3) iv. Any other strikes. (resolve steps b-d) b. Apply effects of strike(s). Effects are applied simultaneously if the strikes are both the same type (from step 2.a). i. Inflict Damage. Damage Prevention cards may be played ONLY during this step. [RTR] Unprevented damage isn't healed until step c. ii. Destroy Equipment. Burn a single Equipment card on the opposing Minion. Default is "only at close range". (8.3) [15.3] iii. Steal Equipment. Move a single Equipment card from the opposing Minion to this Minion. Default is "only at close". (8.3) [15.3] NOTE: Stolen equipment cannot be used the same round it is stolen. iv. Steal Blood. Removes blood from the opponent and places it on this Vampire. Blood stolen in excess of this Vampire's blood capacity is burned. Stolen blood may be used to heal damage (step c). (8.3) v. Paralyze (Jyhad). Sends the opposing Vampire to Torpor, tapped. Mark the Vampire to show that it has been Paralyzed. (22.1) c. Resolve any unprevented damage (see section VI). d. If one or both Combatants are no longer Ready, go to step F. 3. Acting Minion has option to gain additional strikes. (21) 4. Blocking Minion has option to gain additional strikes. (21) 5. Resolve steps 1-2 above for each additional strike that a Minion has. E. Presses. (21) [15.1] NOTE: Only Methuselahs with Minions in combat may supply Presses. [TOM] 1. Each round starts without a Press. 2. Presses alternate between 'to continue' and 'to end' Combat. a. The first Press in a round is used to continue Combat. b. Some presses may be used to either continue or end combat, others state that the press is only usable as one of the two. 3. Each Minion may use any number of Presses, as follows: a. The Acting Minion gets the first opportunity to use a Press. [RTR] b. No Minion may use more than one Press in a row. c. If a card gives a round a Press, then neither Minion is considered to have used that Press. [TOM] F. Round Ends. (21) [15.1] 1. Apply any end-of-round effects. 2. If the last Press was used to continue Combat, then Combat continues (Go back to step A). G. Combat Ends. Retainers regain all life points burned during the current combat. (20.1) [12.3.1] ============================================================================== VI. HOW TO RESOLVE DAMAGE (Heal damage/Prevent Destruction). -------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: Normal damage is resolved before aggravated damage. [RTR] NOTE: Damage prevention cards can only be played during the strike resolution phase of combat (section V.D.2.b). [RTR] A. Vampires burn one blood to heal each point of normal damage. (8.1) B. Vampires who cannot heal all of the damage (damage > blood) must spend all of their blood and then will be placed in torpor after any aggravated damage is applied (see step C). C. Vampires burn one blood (to prevent destruction) for each point of aggravated damage. (21) D. Allies and Retainers burn one life counter for each point of damage. E. Check for Vampires going to Torpor or Minions or Retainers burning. 1. If a Vampire cannot pay for all aggravated damage (aggravated damage in excess of blood) then it is burned without going to torpor. (21) 2. Vampires which have taken at least one point of aggravated damage but were not burned are placed in Torpor. (21) 3. If a Vampire could not heal all of the damage (damage in excess of blood) then it is placed in Torpor with no blood. (21) 4. Allies and Retainers that have zero life counters are burned. (21) -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Only XT users know that http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Jan 1, 1980 was a Tuesday. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

Scott Marcellus

sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote: >James Hamblin <je...@cornell.edu> writes: >>I know people ask this all the time, but I never remember... what are >>the rules for stealing blood. Can you use it to prevent damage? What >>if you have no blood, but steal 1 while getting punched for 1? What if >>you are at capacity in the same situation? > <snipped for brevity> > > >(So, if you steal 1 while at zero and get punched for one, you use the >stolen blood to heal the damage done by the punch. If you are at capacity >and steal 1 while getting punched for one, the stolen blood drains off >before you heal the damage, so you end up at one less than capacity). > How can you say the last statement based on the following ruling? According to the description below, vamp A with 2 blood at capacity punching for 1 vs. vamp B with 2 blood at capacity stealing 1 blood would be resolved as follows: step b.i. vamp B would take 1 damage from the punch. (stealing and damage inflictiing are not applied simultaneously, since these strikes are not the same type) step b.iv. vamp A would remove 1 blood and place it on vamp B. This blood is not in excess of vamp B's capacity. At least that is the way I see it. <snipped for brevity> > b. Apply effects of strike(s). Effects are applied simultaneously if the > strikes are both the same type (from step 2.a). > i. Inflict Damage. Damage Prevention cards may be played ONLY during > this step. [RTR] Unprevented damage isn't healed until step c. > ii. Destroy Equipment. Burn a single Equipment card on the opposing > Minion. Default is "only at close range". (8.3) [15.3] > iii. Steal Equipment. Move a single Equipment card from the opposing > Minion to this Minion. Default is "only at close". (8.3) [15.3] > NOTE: Stolen equipment cannot be used the same round it is stolen. > iv. Steal Blood. Removes blood from the opponent and places it on this > Vampire. Blood stolen in excess of this Vampire's blood capacity is > burned. Stolen blood may be used to heal damage (step c). (8.3) > v. Paralyze (Jyhad). Sends the opposing Vampire to Torpor, tapped. > Mark the Vampire to show that it has been Paralyzed. (22.1) <snipped for brevity> ^ ^ | ^ \|/ ha...@shadow.net <---x---> Scott & Kelley Marcellus /|\ http://www.shadow.net/~havok V | V V

L. Scott Johnson

ha...@shadow.net (Scott Marcellus) writes: >sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote: >>James Hamblin <je...@cornell.edu> writes: >>>I know people ask this all the time, but I never remember... what are >>>the rules for stealing blood. Can you use it to prevent damage? What >>>if you have no blood, but steal 1 while getting punched for 1? What if >>>you are at capacity in the same situation? >> >>(So, if you steal 1 while at zero and get punched for one, you use the >>stolen blood to heal the damage done by the punch. If you are at capacity >>and steal 1 while getting punched for one, the stolen blood drains off >>before you heal the damage, so you end up at one less than capacity). >How can you say the last statement based on the following ruling? >According to the description below, vamp A with 2 blood at capacity >punching for 1 vs. vamp B with 2 blood at capacity stealing 1 blood >would be resolved as follows: >step b.i. vamp B would take 1 damage from the punch. (stealing and >damage inflictiing are not applied simultaneously, since these strikes >are not the same type) >step b.iv. vamp A would remove 1 blood and place it on vamp B. This >blood is not in excess of vamp B's capacity. They resolve simultaneously. They are the same type - namely "non-special-type" (i.e., non-S:CE, non-Dodge, and non-FirstStrike). See outline V.D.2.a - they are both of class "iv" - the punch is certainly not of class "i" (S:CE), as you suggest. ><snipped for brevity> Replaced for clarity: [ quoted text not captured ] ><snipped for brevity> -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Experience is something you http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | get just after you need it. [ quoted text not captured ]

Jeffrey Endres

Scott Marcellus wrote: > > sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote: > > >James Hamblin <je...@cornell.edu> writes: > >>I know people ask this all the time, but I never remember... what are > >>the rules for stealing blood. Can you use it to prevent damage? What > >>if you have no blood, but steal 1 while getting punched for 1? What if > >>you are at capacity in the same situation? > > > <snipped for brevity> > > > > > >(So, if you steal 1 while at zero and get punched for one, you use the > >stolen blood to heal the damage done by the punch. If you are at capacity > >and steal 1 while getting punched for one, the stolen blood drains off > >before you heal the damage, so you end up at one less than capacity). > > > > How can you say the last statement based on the following ruling? > According to the description below, vamp A with 2 blood at capacity > punching for 1 vs. vamp B with 2 blood at capacity stealing 1 blood > would be resolved as follows: > > step b.i. vamp B would take 1 damage from the punch. (stealing and > damage inflictiing are not applied simultaneously, since these strikes > are not the same type) > step b.iv. vamp A would remove 1 blood and place it on vamp B. This > blood is not in excess of vamp B's capacity. > > At least that is the way I see it. > > <snipped for brevity> > > > b. Apply effects of strike(s). Effects are applied simultaneously if the > > strikes are both the same type (from step 2.a). > > i. Inflict Damage. Damage Prevention cards may be played ONLY during > > this step. [RTR] Unprevented damage isn't healed until step c. > > ii. Destroy Equipment. Burn a single Equipment card on the opposing > > Minion. Default is "only at close range". (8.3) [15.3] > > iii. Steal Equipment. Move a single Equipment card from the opposing > > Minion to this Minion. Default is "only at close". (8.3) [15.3] > > NOTE: Stolen equipment cannot be used the same round it is stolen. > > iv. Steal Blood. Removes blood from the opponent and places it on this > > Vampire. Blood stolen in excess of this Vampire's blood capacity is > > burned. Stolen blood may be used to heal damage (step c). (8.3) > > v. Paralyze (Jyhad). Sends the opposing Vampire to Torpor, tapped. > > Mark the Vampire to show that it has been Paralyzed. (22.1) > > <snipped for brevity> > > ^ > ^ | ^ > \|/ ha...@shadow.net > <---x---> Scott & Kelley Marcellus > /|\ http://www.shadow.net/~havok > V | V > V What LSJ is trying to say is that damage is resolved seperately and simultaneously. Section 2.c (where damage is resolved) is after 2.b (which contains the strikes and steal blood, etc). I have to say I disagree with the fact that stolen blood _can_ be used to heal damage, as the rules supplied with Jyhad and V:tES clear state within an example that it can't be used. Ah well... A bit sad when 'priveleged' few that have access to NGs start changing rules. Unless someone can provide me with a good reason why it should be changed??? Yes I know Tom probably made the ruling but he made enough mistakes in his term as Net-Rep... -- Jeffrey Endres Undergrad B. Eng (Aerospace Avionics) Queensland University of Technology "Cinnamon and sugary, with softly spoken lies, You never know just how you look through other peoples eyes." Butthole Surfers, 'Pepper'

L. Scott Johnson

Jeffrey Endres <j.en...@student.qut.edu.au> writes: >Scott Marcellus wrote: >> sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote: >> >James Hamblin <je...@cornell.edu> writes: >> >>I know people ask this all the time, but I never remember... what are >> >>the rules for stealing blood. Can you use it to prevent damage? What >> >>if you have no blood, but steal 1 while getting punched for 1? What if >> >>you are at capacity in the same situation? >> >[...] >> >(So, if you steal 1 while at zero and get punched for one, you use the >> >stolen blood to heal the damage done by the punch. If you are at capacity >> >and steal 1 while getting punched for one, the stolen blood drains off >> >before you heal the damage, so you end up at one less than capacity). >> >> How can you say the last statement based on the following ruling? >> [...] > >What LSJ is trying to say is that damage is resolved seperately and >simultaneously. Section 2.c (where damage is resolved) is after 2.b >(which contains the strikes and steal blood, etc). >I have to say I disagree with the fact that stolen blood _can_ be >used to heal damage, as the rules supplied with Jyhad and V:tES >clear state within an example that it can't be used. Ah well... The example in Jyhad is inconsistent with the rulebook rules. The example was corrected in the "corrected jyhad rulebook" (published in the Duelist). The example in the VtES alsosupports the rules (that you can heal with stolen blood): Jyhad [15.3]: A vampire heals any existing wounds immediately after stealing blood unless the damage was dealt to it with first strike. VtES (8.3): The stolen blood will also heal the vampire immediately. This blood can be burned by damage that is not dealt with First Strike. Example: Eliza and Cassandra meet again. This time Eliza has 1 blood and Cassandra has 4. Eliza strikes using a Thaumaturgy card that allows her to steal 3 blood. Cassandra strikes with her hands and plays a combat card to increase her hand damage to 2. Eliza takes 2 damage and steals 3 blood from Cassandra. Eliza can use the stolen blood to absorb the damage and is not burned. >A bit sad when 'priveleged' few that have access to NGs start >changing rules. Unless someone can provide me with a good reason >why it should be changed??? It has been changed in print. Check the VtES rulebook, or the "corrected" jyhad rulebook in the Duelist. >Yes I know Tom probably made the ruling but he made enough mistakes >in his term as Net-Rep... Tom and the others came up with this method from the start - the original jyhad rulebook simply contained an erroneous example. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Experience is something you http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | get just after you need it. [ quoted text not captured ]

J. Andrew Lipscomb

In article <328809...@cornell.edu>, James Hamblin <je...@cornell.edu> wrote: > I know people ask this all the time, but I never remember... what are > the rules for stealing blood. Can you use it to prevent damage? What > if you have no blood, but steal 1 while getting punched for 1? What if > you are at capacity in the same situation? Let's set up an example: You are blocking with Jing Wei (dom tha). She is at 0/3, and takes one hand while playing Theft of Vitae to steal one. Her new blood arrives before she has to heal (not prevent) damage, so she stays ready at 0/3. I don't know the "official" rule if she had made the same move at 3/3, but in Jyhad On Line, she loses the extra first, so winds up at 2/3 and has either wasted or cycled a card. J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com> PGP keys by request

Sorrow

>The example in the VtES alsosupports the rules (that you can heal with >stolen blood): Ok, just to get this straight, this is how it works? VampA 2/3 and VampB 5/5 enter combat Range: Close VampA uses Theft of Vitae to steal 2. This changes the blood level on both vamps immediately to: VampA 3/3 VampB 3/5 VampB strikes with hands for 1 No damage prevention cards are played. Strike Resolution where VampB's damage is applied. No Press. Combat over VampA comes out of combat at 2/3 VampB comes out of combat at 3/5 This is a correct (albeit simplified) example of a typical "Steal Blood" combat? Sorrow