Few rules Q's

A few of these occurred yesterday and although I'm sure it happened before, it was never of any importance since we had quite a discussion over them: 1) Somone plays a contract on Anton (controlled by his prey), and names Fatima as the chosen Assamite. Fatima gets Rotschrecked (by Anton) to torpor and eaten in the next turn by Muaziz (controlled by his predator). What happens to the contract? a) It remains in play with no further function b) It is burned (or just removed from play for convenience sake) c) If a new Fatima is brought into play, the contract works for that copy of Fatima. A similar question can be asked what happens when the chosed Assamite is sent to the uncontrolled region again (by, for example Reality or Banishment). Does the contract remain active after she's brought back out? 2) Huitzipochtli has been Rotschrecked to Torpor (thanks again, to Anton - stupid Tzim deck). On the next turn, he's still there for some reason and want to get himself out of Torpor. Anton (gotta hate that guy) tries to block that action. Can Huitzipochtli play action modifiers to increase his stealth, or, in this case, make the block fail by playing Psychomachia? Or are minions in torpor not allowed to play action modifiers? 3) Is there any way around Aggravate attempt - Rotschrek? I read somewhere that Psyche! beats it, but I don't really see how. The only way I've beaten it is with Dawn Ops/Weather Control/Skin of Night, but that's a messy 3 card combo and easily circumvented by constantly backing out of the block once I play Dawn Ops, which jams my hand with Weather Control and Skins. Other ideas? 4) Can you only use Huitzipochtli's special ability once per master phase, or can you pay multiple pool for multiple extra Master phases? Say, I have a really golden hand and I Minion Tap him for 10, pay a pool, Giant's Blood him back to full, pay another pool, Tap him again for another ten, and finally pay a third pool to play Golconda for a total pool gain of 37. Legal? Provided you have the cards. 5) If you have played a Master Out of Turn, do you lose your whole master phase, or have you just lost the ability to use Master phase transactions (such as playing a card or taking blood from a Slave Auction)? If you have a card that says you get extra master phases (Anson, Panthenon etc, Huitzi's special), do you still get those extra phases? More specific, I Sudden a Minion Tap. In my next turn, I want to pay a pool to use Huitzipochtli's special ability to gain an extra (in this case my first of the turn) master phase. Legal? Or do you also lose the right for extra master phases once you play an Out of Turn? There were more, but I forgot them....

On Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:59:27 +0200, "Ulugh Beg II" <dontfe...@spam.me> wrote: >Somone plays a contract on Anton (controlled by his prey), and names Fatima as the chosen Assamite. >Fatima gets Rotschrecked (by Anton) to torpor and eaten in the next turn by Muaziz (controlled by his predator). >What happens to the contract? >a) It remains in play with no further function A. >A similar question can be asked what happens when the chosed Assamite is sent to the uncontrolled region >again (by, for example Reality or Banishment). Does the contract remain active after she's brought back out? Yes. A Banished vampire will remember all effects that had been applied to him, just as contested vampires do. This includes gained or lost titles, etc. [RTR 20000501] http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulings.html >Huitzipochtli has been Rotschrecked to Torpor (thanks again, to Anton - stupid Tzim deck). >On the next turn, he's still there for some reason and want to get himself out of Torpor. >Anton (gotta hate that guy) tries to block that action. >Can Huitzipochtli play action modifiers to increase his stealth, or, in this case, make the block fail by playing Psychomachia? Yes. >Or are minions in torpor not allowed to play action modifiers? Vampires in torpor can only play action modifiers when they are the acting minion. Action modifiers cannot be played by a vampire in torpor unless that vampire is the acting minion. [RTR 19970306] http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulings.html >Is there any way around Aggravate attempt - Rotschrek? Yes. Being at the wrong range for the attempted damage is one. The other is to restart or continue the combat via Telepathic Tracking, Psyche!, Fast Reaction, Hidden Lurker, Coordinate Attacks, or The Status Perfectus. >I read somewhere that Psyche! beats it, but I don't really see how. The first part of Rotschreck ends combat. At that point, you play Psyche! to start a new combat and the rest of Rotschreck's effect is lost. If combat is continued or a new combat started, then rest of the effect of Rotschreck is lost. [RTR 20020501] http://groups.google.com/groups?q=msgid%3a3CD0043...@white-wolf.com >The only way I've beaten it is with Dawn Ops/Weather Control/Skin of Night, but that's a messy 3 card >combo and easily circumvented by constantly backing out of the block once I play Dawn Ops, which >jams my hand with Weather Control and Skins. Have you tried superior fortitude? No way to back out of the block then. >Other ideas? Act out of turn with the Madness Network. The person who's turn it is won't be able to play Rotschreck, and you can play a Sudden Reversal on anyone else playing one. Don't get blocked. Elysium the Arboretum, Purchase Pact, Legacy of Power, Living Manse, and Ghoul Escort come to mind. >Can you only use Huitzipochtli's special ability once per master phase, >or can you pay multiple pool for multiple extra Master phases? Once per master phase. His card text follows the pattern "during X phase, you may Y" which limits the ability to Once During Phase X. "During phase X, do Y" limits Y to once per phase X. [LSJ 19970625] http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulings.html >Say, I have a really golden hand and I Minion Tap him for 10, pay a pool, >Giant's Blood him back to full, pay another pool, Tap him again for another . >ten, and finally pay a third pool to play Golconda for a total pool gain of 37. Legal? Not in the slightest. >If you have played a Master Out of Turn, do you lose your whole master phase, >or have you just lost the ability to use Master phase transactions (such as >playing a card or taking blood from a Slave Auction)? You lose the first Master Phase Action you would normally gain for that turn. The phase still occurs, and you may gain additional master phase actions accordingly. >If you have a card that says you get extra master phases (Anson, >Panthenon etc, Huitzi's special), do you still get those extra phases? Yes. >More specific, I Sudden a Minion Tap. In my next turn, I want to pay a pool >to use Huitzipochtli's special ability to gain an extra (in this case my first of >the turn) master phase. Legal? Yes. >Or do you also lose the right for extra master phases once you play an Out of Turn? Nope. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

Ulugh Beg II expounded: I expect Lasombra will be along in a minute to give you all the references but meanwhile: > 1) > Somone plays a contract on Anton (controlled by his prey), and names Fatima as the chosen Assamite. > Fatima gets Rotschrecked (by Anton) to torpor and eaten in the next turn by Muaziz (controlled by his predator). > What happens to the contract? > a) It remains in play with no further function I believe so. > b) It is burned (or just removed from play for convenience sake) I can't think of any reason not to remove it from play but it wouldn't go to the Ash Heap (whence it might be recycled) -unless I'm wrong of course. > c) If a new Fatima is brought into play, the contract works for that copy of Fatima. DEFINITELY NOT. It targets the Fatima card that was in play when it was played and onlyuntil she is burned -if she gets (daemonic) possessed back, then the Contract won't work any more. > A similar question can be asked what happens when the chosed Assamite is sent to the uncontrolled region again (by, for example Reality or Banishment). Does the contract remain active after she's brought back out? Cards DO track vampires through Banishment and Contesting (though ironically if you cede a copy with something on it, the winning contester doesn't take them over). So in this case youcan still use the Contract. > 2) > Huitzipochtli has been Rotschrecked to Torpor (thanks again, to Anton - stupid Tzim deck). > On the next turn, he's still there for some reason and want to get himself out of Torpor. > Anton (gotta hate that guy) tries to block that action. > Can Huitzipochtli play action modifiers to increase his stealth, or, in this case, make the block fail by playing Psychomachia? > Or are minions in torpor not allowed to play action modifiers? He can play the stealth. > 3) > Is there any way around Aggravate attempt - Rotschrek? > I read somewhere that Psyche! beats it, but I don't really see how. Correct. ;-) I'm not quite clear on why this is so but it it. I think it's because Psyche is a combat card and so comes in right on the tail of Combat Ends and cuts off the rest of the Rotschreck or something. There was a big discussion about it fairly recently. Telepathic Tracking also beats Rotschreck. > The only way I've beaten it is with Dawn Ops/Weather Control/Skin of Night, but that's a messy 3 card combo and easily circumvented by constantly backing out of the block once I play Dawn Ops, which jams my hand with Weather Control and Skins. > Other ideas? Sudden Reversal/Direct Intervention (would have to be cross-table) > 4) > Can you only use Huitzipochtli's special ability once per master phase, or can you pay multiple pool for multiple extra Master phases? "during phase X, do Y" template. In this case you can only use it once per phase X. Only ONE extra Master Phase Action from Huitz. > Say, I have a really golden hand and I Minion Tap him for 10, pay a pool, Giant's Blood him back to full, pay another pool, Tap him again for another ten, and finally pay a third pool to play Golconda for a total pool gain of 37. Legal? Provided you have the cards. Not Legal. > 5) > If you have played a Master Out of Turn, do you lose your whole master phase, or have you just lost the ability to use Master phase transactions (such as playing a card or taking blood from a Slave Auction)? If you have a card that says you get extra master phases (Anson, Panthenon etc, Huitzi's special), do you still get those extra phases? You only lose the default Master Phase Action. You still get the Master Phase itself during which you can use cards to get extra Master Phase Actions. > More specific, I Sudden a Minion Tap. In my next turn, I want to pay a pool to use Huitzipochtli's special ability to gain an extra (in this case my first of the turn) master phase. Legal? Or do you also lose the right for extra master phases once you play an Out of Turn? You can use Huitz's special and/or Parthenon to play an extra Master. If you do so you can play a Trifle to get another extra. NB in no case can you play more than one OOT Master. > There were more, but I forgot them.... Never mind I'm sure they'll come again ;-)

Thanks for those clarifications, however: > >Somone plays a contract on Anton (controlled by his prey), and names Fatima as the chosen Assamite. > >Fatima gets Rotschrecked (by Anton) to torpor and eaten in the next turn by Muaziz (controlled by his predator). > >What happens to the contract? > >a) It remains in play with no further function > > A. > > > >A similar question can be asked what happens when the chosed Assamite is sent to the uncontrolled region > >again (by, for example Reality or Banishment). Does the contract remain active after she's brought back out? > > Yes. > > A Banished vampire will remember all effects that had been applied to > him, just as contested vampires do. This includes gained or lost > titles, etc. [RTR 20000501] > > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulings.html I fail to see how a Banished and re-influenced Vampire is different than a newly influenced. Heck, if Fatima gets banished and she has seeds of corruption or something on her and you happen to have a second copy in the Uncontrolled Region, and you choose to get that one out, is the contract no longer of any use? This seems very inconsistent to me. Both vampires are uncontrolled. Both are in the uncontrolled region. Different rules apply.

> > There were more, but I forgot them.... > > Never mind I'm sure they'll come again ;-) Yah, Lasombra's answer reminded me of one: 6) Carna gets into combat with a Gangrel (forgot name, nothing special) Carna goes to long range. The Gangrel, lacking maneuvers, has to stick at that. I play Theft or something and the Gangrel does what (he has no long range strikes either)? He does: a) declare a hand strike, which misses b) does nothing This is also important whether or not he may cycle a Wolf Claws just for the sake of cycling it. Is his aggrevated hand damage is "missed" strike (and as such a failed attempt to do aggravated damage and thus Rotschreckable) or is he just doing nothing. Furthermore, is it allowed to play a short range strike card from long range (Undead STR for example) for the sake of cycling. If I'm at long range and my opponent has a Sengir Dagger and a Rotschrek, can he combo them? "I miss with the Dagger, but hey, eat this you're scared anyway". 7) What happens if: * Combat between a Tzim and, say, Brujah. * Close range * Brujah does his Brujah thing (say, 6 damage) * Tzim: Breath of the Dragon, Rotschrek * Brujah: Psyche! Does the first combat simply do nothing, since the strike resolution isn't reached? 8) How does Rotschrek (stupid card...) interact with cards like Blood of Acid. Can you play a Rotschrek on that? And what about Aggrevated Weather Control, now that I think of it? My guess is no, but is there any rules backup for this?

On Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:00:06 +0200, "Ulugh Beg II" <dontfe...@spam.me> wrote: >> A Banished vampire will remember all effects that had been applied to >> him, just as contested vampires do. This includes gained or lost >> titles, etc. [RTR 20000501] >> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulings.html >I fail to see And there is the heart of the problem. >how a Banished and re-influenced Vampire is different than >a newly influenced. The cards are physically different. >Heck, if Fatima gets banished and she has seeds of >corruption or something on her and you happen to have a second copy in >the Uncontrolled Region, and you choose to get that one out, is the >contract no longer of any use? No use at all. >This seems very inconsistent to me. Not at all. >Both vampires are uncontrolled. Two different vampires are in your uncontrolled region. Two different cards are in your uncontrolled region. Affects that apply to one do not apply to the other. >Both are in the uncontrolled region. Indeed. Two different cards are in your uncontrolled region. >Different rules apply. Not at all. Affects that apply to one do not apply to the other. If this were not true, Brainwash would stop all transfers to all copies of a vampire in your uncontrolled region. Clearly it is true and Brainwash only applies to the vampire it was played upon, exactly the same way Contracts are treated. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:12:27 +0200, "Ulugh Beg II" <dontfe...@spam.me> wrote: >Carna gets into combat with a Gangrel (forgot name, nothing special) >Carna goes to long range. >The Gangrel, lacking maneuvers, has to stick at that. >I play Theft or something and the Gangrel does what (he has no long >range strikes either)? >He does: >a) declare a hand strike, which misses Must declare a strike, the default is a hand strike which is always available even at long range. The Gangrel could play any short range strike, it simply would have no effect. See 6.4.3 of the online rulebook: "Each minion chooses his strike." http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/ >This is also important whether or not he may cycle a Wolf Claws just for >the sake of cycling it. He may. >Is his aggrevated hand damage is "missed" strike (and as such a failed >attempt to do aggravated damage and thus Rotschreckable) or is he just >doing nothing. Rotschreck may not be played if the strike is not effective at the current range. This is clearly covered by the FAQ, section 3.5 http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_faq.htm 3.5. Can Rötschreck still be played... Can Rötschreck still be played at long range while the reacting minion declares an aggravated hand strike? No. Cannot be used if the "attempt to use aggravated damage" is not applicable at the current range. The most common example is an aggravated hand strike done at long range. >Furthermore, is it allowed to play a short range strike card from long >range (Undead STR for example) for the sake of cycling. Of course. >If I'm at long range and my opponent has a Sengir Dagger and a >Rotschrek, can he combo them? No. FAQ, section 3.5. >"I miss with the Dagger, but hey, eat this >you're scared anyway". Nope. >What happens if: >* Combat between a Tzim and, say, Brujah. >* Close range >* Brujah does his Brujah thing (say, 6 damage) >* Tzim: Breath of the Dragon, Rotschrek >* Brujah: Psyche! >Does the first combat simply do nothing, since the strike resolution >isn't reached? Correct, the strikes in the first round have no effect and damage is not resolved for either combatant. >How does Rotschrek (stupid card...) interact with cards like Blood of >Acid. Can you play a Rotschrek on that? No. The damage from Blood of Acid is not inflicted by the vampire that played the Blood of Acid card. Pertinent card text: Rotschreck- "when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her" Blood of Acid - "the opposing minion takes an amount of damage equal to the damage he or she successfully inflicts." >And what about Aggrevated >Weather Control, now that I think of it? Same as Blood of Acid. Damage done by "environmental" sources cannot be a trigger for Rotschreck. Aggravated damage from - Carrion Crows, Weather Control, damage from Retainers - none of these things will allow Rotschreck to be played. >My guess is no, but is there any rules backup for this? Section 3.17 of the FAQ explains it: http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_faq.htm Damage is only considered to have come from a minion if the damage is from a strike or if an effect specifically states that the damage is dealt by the minion. Damage from other effects is considered "environmental", and has no particular source. Damage done by retainers or cards like Carrion Crows and Weather Control are not considered to be "damage from a minion", therefore they are usually referred to as "environmental" damage. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > >how a Banished and re-influenced Vampire is different than > >a newly influenced. > > The cards are physically different. True, but how about two of the same card in my hand? Those are the same, according to the rulings on political actions (Delaying tactics) I'm not saying I don't believe you, since you're always right anyway. I'm just trying to find some logic.

On Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:43:17 +0200, "Ulugh Beg II" <dontfe...@spam.me> wrote: >> >how a Banished and re-influenced Vampire is different than >> >a newly influenced. >> The cards are physically different. >True, but how about two of the same card in my hand? There are no effects that target two cards in your hand the way Contract and Banishment interact. Why do you think they have any similarity? >Those are the same, according to the rulings on political actions >(Delaying tactics) Because of card text on Delaying Tactics, and its interpretation by the Rules Team. LSJ 2002-07-23 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D3D43EC.F6F48150%40white-wolf.com =---------- > KRC is always the same Political Action as KRC, no matter which > card it is. If you have a hand full of 7 KRCs, and someone plays > a Delaying Tactics, you can't play *any* of them again this turn. Correct. =---------- "cannot attempt the same political action this turn." >I'm not saying I don't believe you, since you're always right anyway. >I'm just trying to find some logic. Here is the logic: Effects applied to 1 vampire that becomes uncontrolled only effect that copy of the vampire. Otherwise, if your Famous Anson was Banished, and you influenced a different copy, it would become Famous because the other crypt card was Famous. Kine Resources Contested is an action card, it is the same political action as all other KRC cards. It is not unique in the game nor is it ever put into play. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] It is inconsistent in that regard, yes. The uncontrolled region is to crypt cards what the hand is to library cards. But cards are tracked in the uncontrolled region. They are only tracked because of Banishment (and similar effects that followed the printing of Banishment). Banishment requires that the cards on the uncontrolled vampire (retainers, equipment, etc.) remain with the vampire. Therefore, the vampire must be tracked. Since it is being tracked, other effects (Contract, Blood Bond, etc.) are also able to track it. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/