Discipline Survey

What is the most powerful discipline? Why? What is the weakest discipline? Why? Which discipline do you find yourself playing the most? (not necessarily the same as the first thing). Why? As I was writing these questions, I realized that the 7 new disciplines (chi, nec, ser, qui, dem, obt, and vis) are by and large outclassed by the original set. So I think I will limit this to the original set... Chris -- Tammy Martin 5'7" Alexander Shorb 2'10" Chris Shorb 5'11" Shameless plug: <http://www.graphicnovels.com/>

In article <38A24F55...@alumni.williams.edu>, shr...@alumni.williams.edu wrote: > What is the most powerful discipline? Why? > Fortitude. Freak Drive/Day Op./Force of Will/Skin of Steel. 4 Amazing cards and they all do something totally different. Completely versitile in terms of combat/non-combat and the vampires that have fortitude have other strong skills too. It requires no other skills to back it up or make it good. No contest, head and shoulders over the rest. > What is the weakest discipline? Why? > Thaumaturgy. Before the tremere bunnies jump all over me consider that it is mostly comprised of combat cards that are very bad/unplayable. Does nothing to stop S:CE or IG and the non-combat cards are mostly irrelevent. Maybe Magic of the smith is OK. maybe. Tremere and Tremere! have auspex (Yeah!! violence!! get into combat and..urm..steal 2 blood?, oh... OK I'll take 5 and have my arms torn off then...) and dominate, which admittedly is a real beating, but is not backed up in this case with either a) a stealth skill, or b) a combat skill. Dominate requires one or the other to get it's max. potential. As the tremere become weaker due to their card base, their primary skill gets weaker by association. Shotgun Ritual sucks too. > Which discipline do you find yourself playing the most? (not > necessarily the same as the first thing). Why? > Obfuscate. Because it is the most useful 'couple' skill. If your deck has a few key actions to perform you have look at playing with the black boxes. On its own it is not that powerful in that it can't achieve much and if your actions are in no danger of getting blocked they clog up your hand. However, if you couple it with game-wrecking actions like votes, or ally employment, or a Tempation, or massive bleeds then it's damn fine. It also has the option of some good tricks like Behind You and Disguised Weapon too. > As I was writing these questions, I realized that the 7 new > disciplines (chi, nec, ser, qui, dem, obt, and vis) are by and large > outclassed by the original set. So I think I will limit this to the > original set... > They are hamstrung by a lack of vampires to use them to the full potential. Particularly Obt, which could be very good indeed. On the other hand qui really is pointless. matt. > Chris > -- > Tammy Martin 5'7" > Alexander Shorb 2'10" > Chris Shorb 5'11" > Shameless plug: > <http://www.graphicnovels.com/> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <38A24F55...@alumni.williams.edu>, shr...@alumni.williams.edu wrote: > What is the most powerful discipline? Why? For me it's Presence. It can vote, bleed, and dodge/SCE all with one discipline. It's easily the most versatile, and options are what I highly value. > What is the weakest discipline? Why? Of the original set, I'm going to have to say that Animalism is the weakest? Why? There isn't one thing that it does real well...unlike the other skills. Presence - Voting Dominate - Bleeding Obfuscate - Stealth Fortitude - Prevent damage and unblockable actions Potence - Heavy hitting combat with IG Celerity - You can control combat with this skill if played right. Auspex - Intercept Thaumaturgy - Denial (of blood, actions, strikes, etc.) Animalism - ummm, I guess they untap a lot.... > Which discipline do you find yourself playing the most? (not > necessarily the same as the first thing). Why? Celerity. We love combat in Austin, and this is bar none the best combat skill in the game. ------------------- Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin et...@ddg.com http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 mgre...@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <38A24F55...@alumni.williams.edu>, > shr...@alumni.williams.edu wrote: > > What is the most powerful discipline? Why? > > > Fortitude. Freak Drive/Day Op./Force of Will/Skin of Steel. I'm surprised. I tend to see Dominate cited - it was the most powerful in a statistical analysis of JOL, for instance. It has bleed, it has counter votes, it has limited stealth, it has (now, thankfully) limited combat, it can steal vampires, it can steal allies. -- James Coupe

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Ethan Burrow wrote: > > Which discipline do you find yourself playing the most? (not > > necessarily the same as the first thing). Why? > > Celerity. We love combat in Austin, and this is bar none the best > combat skill in the game. I kind of agree. It provides a hell of a lot of use in combat but, unlike Potence, doesn't provide a good solid way of stopping IG. But then, I guess without Celerity, Potence can't guarantee the range to use IG anyway - so the best of both worlds :) -- James Coupe

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:02:47 +0000, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: >On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Ethan Burrow wrote: >> > Which discipline do you find yourself playing the most? (not >> > necessarily the same as the first thing). Why? >> >> Celerity. We love combat in Austin, and this is bar none the best >> combat skill in the game. > >I kind of agree. It provides a hell of a lot of use in combat but, unlike >Potence, doesn't provide a good solid way of stopping IG. But then, I Sure it does... I have an AUS/CEL deck that Pulses itself and uses Distractions, Anarch Troublemaker, and the like to get the bleeds past. It packs about a gazillion Flashes and a bunch of Dodges - and it hasn't been caught YET. =) It's certainly a solid way of stopping IG, but those pesky range-combat/blur decks are a pain. -- Derek Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music. It only stopped them hearing the distractions.

On Wed, 09 Feb 2000 21:40:37 -0800, Chris Shorb & Tammy Martin <shr...@alumni.williams.edu> wrote: >What is the most powerful discipline? Why? Dominate. It bleeds. At stealth if necessary (Bonding, Dominate Kine). It bounces bleeds (Deflection, Redirection). It blood-gains (Govern at superior). It provides unblockability (Seduction, Sleeping Mind). It defends against voting (Kindred Coercion, Pulling Strings). It steals locations (Kine Dominance). It steals retainers (Far Mastery). It steals vampires (Mind Rape, Grave Robbing). It is combat defense (Obedience). And you can get it at superior on two different 4-cap vampires, at inferior on two different 2-cap vampires, and there are a LOT of 3-caps and 4-caps with inferior. No other discipline can do anywhere NEAR this much as effectively. >What is the weakest discipline? Why? Taken all by itself, you mean? Probably THA. Lots of combat, but REQUIRES disciplineless cards to function properly (trap or dead-end alley) and still doesn't quite get the job done. PRE is almost as good as DOM. FOR is obviously strong. ANI can be pretty nasty at superior if done right. AUS will stop everything. OBF will get AWAY with everything, and well-done Night Moves decks are pretty fearsome. POT is evil. CEL is an excellent support discipline. PRO is quite a toolbox itself. >Which discipline do you find yourself playing the most? (not >necessarily the same as the first thing). Why? Difficult to answer that... but probably POT, THA, CEL, PRO in that order. I like beating things up. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

>On the other hand qui really is pointless. Huh? Please explain. Todd Banister Prince of Atlanta Scribe of the Assamites

Chris Shorb & Tammy Martin wrote in message <38A24F55...@alumni.williams.edu>... >What is the most powerful discipline? Why? I have to go with Dominate. Bleed, bounce, pool gain, combat defense, steal cards, and even tricks like seduction. No other single skill can have such power. Fortitude (combat defense, pool gain, unblockable actions, bleed, and other tricks like Freak Drive) and Protean (agg. combat, stealth, damage reduction, combat ends, movement of the slow body) both get a close second. >What is the weakest discipline? Why? Thaumaturgy. Mainly combat that is a real pain in the ass to get to work, and is easily screwed by many common strategies. >Which discipline do you find yourself playing the most? (not >necessarily the same as the first thing). Why? Dominate. It's in almost every deck I have ever made. Manily have it for bounce. Steve Bucy

In article <38A24F55...@alumni.williams.edu>, shr...@alumni.williams.edu wrote: > What is the most powerful discipline? Why? dominate by far. It is so powerful it is almost broken. I steal your location you just paid for. I steal your vampire you just paid for. I bled you for 6. I have an unlimited bleed enhancer (command of the beast at superior) that I can stack Conditioning on top of. I can shut down your strikes in combat. I can prevent you from blocking me. I can prevent you from untapping. I prevent you from casting votes. I gain free pool. Oh yeah, I bounce your bleeds to my prey, thanks for trying. > > What is the weakest discipline? Why? Auspex. While intercept is a basic game mechanic and Auspex is the best at intercept, it does little else. Actually it jams your hand up in most siturations. A light sprinkling of Auspex is wonderful, but if you created a deck based on it. I imagine it would suffer from hand jam alot. > Which discipline do you find yourself playing the most? (not > necessarily the same as the first thing). Why? Dominate, Bleed Bounce: I give my prey all the grief you give to me. Mwhahahahaha. I love showing how broken Dominate is Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Derek Ray wrote: > >> Celerity. We love combat in Austin, and this is bar none the best > >> combat skill in the game. > > > >I kind of agree. It provides a hell of a lot of use in combat but, unlike > >Potence, doesn't provide a good solid way of stopping IG. But then, I > > Sure it does... I have an AUS/CEL deck that Pulses itself and uses > Distractions, Anarch Troublemaker, and the like to get the bleeds > past. It packs about a gazillion Flashes and a bunch of Dodges - and > it hasn't been caught YET. =) My apologies. It was supposed to say something like "a good solid way of stopping S:CE, like IG". Celerity is a back up combat discipline par excellence - the maneuvers, the presses, the dodges, the sideslips, the additional strikes. It's just more difficult to use it on its own (for combat), which is a pain. -- James Coupe

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Todd Banister wrote: > >On the other hand qui really is pointless. > > Huh? Please explain. To some extent, I see what Matt's saying. Gangrel can stop dodges with Scorpion Sting, and S:CE with Dog Pack (slow and crap, but what are you gonna do) and Protean can mix with Potence reasonably easily - since hand strikes and claws mesh well. Potence has IG (so usable with the above) to stop S:CE and Dodge, weapon strikes etc. Animalism can stop maneuvering, weapons etc. Protean is a supremely useful discipline - it can be offensive (claws, body flare) and be a back up discipline (lots of maneuvers, lots of presses etc.). Quietus, in some respects, suffers in the same way as Thaumaturgy. The disciplines it lines up with, in V:TES terms, aren't great. You can't stop S:CE or Dodge with it, except with Hidden Lurker. And once that becomes obvious, blocking dries up and Assamites don't have a good way to punish that (e.g. bruise and bleed). It can, and has been, used well. It's just one of the combat disciplines that's easiest to scupper - like Thaumaturgy, without some serious work (e.g. Xian's potence-thaumaturgy deck). And Quietus doesn't have the luxury of mixing and matching with odd disciplines, because of so few vampires having it naturally. :( -- James Coupe

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > It was supposed to say something like "a good solid way of > stopping S:CE, like IG". It has Psyche. Of course, that just gets into the arms race of who has more S:CE cards vs. Psyche cards in your hand. *ponders using both together* Heh. An endless cycle of Catatonic Fear and Psyche at superior would be amusing. S:CE and take a point of damage Psyche to begin combat again S:CE and take a point of damage Psyche to begin combat again S:CE and... It would require too many cards to be truly effective, but it would be damned funny to see the look on someone's face as their IC vampire goes to torpor by a series of S:CE cards. Of course, an IG deck would rip it apart. But with sup. Celerity already in the mix, a sprinkling of Flash (or whatever) would help against that. Noal -- "I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion." "There ought to be limits to freedom." --George W. Bush Don't vote for a son of a Bush. [ quoted text not captured ]

What is the powerful disciplines??? All disciplines are equlibrated! ...but I think that one discipline is powerful as it can be used in different mode. I like Protean because is the skill utilized in combat decks and non combat. It has: Stealt (2 type) Combat ends (3 type) Untap from torpor Untap from ready zone (The omunculus, carrion coffin) Prevent damage (flesh of marble) Aggravate damage (3 type) maneuvers and press at will unblockable action (horrific countenance at minor skill) 1 hand damage and addictional strikes then is one skill I have a little of: obfuscate fortitude potence and celerity... How want more? Pivanti "Lazverinuts" Marco - Prince of Lanzo's Valleys

In article <8818ao$jrd$1...@lacerta.tiscalinet.it>, "Maverick" <ma...@cerinf.it> wrote: > What is the powerful disciplines??? > > All disciplines are equlibrated! I would argue 'til blue in the face, but I will refrain because I can't tell whether you are being sarcastic or not. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > What is the most powerful discipline? Why? I'd say Dominate also, followed closely by presence. Dominate is a discipline that works non-superior, has enormous bleed capacity and has an answer to all parts of the game and gets the upper hand by it. Obedience against combat [I stay untapped you don't]. Deflection/Redirection against bleeds [bleed my prey] Votes [pulling strings/kindred co-ersion] Steal everything. the list goes on and on. there is non one DOM cards that isn't usefull IMO. What is the weakest discipline? Why? Thaumatury closely followed by Auspex. But all agruments have been said before. Which discipline do you find yourself playing the most? (not necessarily the same as the first thing). Why? Dominate and Potence, mainly due to the fact that the Lasombra are my favourite clan. Gr, Tim [ quoted text not captured ]

Well Norm, I actually have a Weenie Auspex deck that is more competitive than you would expect. I'd post it, but I don't have the deck composition catalogued and I'm at work :^). To be fair, it doesn't use a whole lot of intercept...since the weenies would typically die in combat <g> In article <88187j$a5j$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > What is the weakest discipline? Why? > Auspex. While intercept is a basic game mechanic and Auspex is the > best at intercept, it does little else. Actually it jams your hand up > in most siturations. A light sprinkling of Auspex is wonderful, but > if you created a deck based on it. I imagine it would suffer from hand > jam alot. ---------------------- Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin et...@ddg.com http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > In article <38A24F55...@alumni.williams.edu>, > shr...@alumni.williams.edu wrote: > > What is the most powerful discipline? Why? > > dominate by far. It is so powerful it is almost broken. I steal your > location you just paid for. I steal your vampire you just paid for. I > bled you for 6. I have an unlimited bleed enhancer (command of the > beast at superior) that I can stack Conditioning on top of. *Unlimited* bleed enhancer? You weren't thinking you could play more than one Command of the Beast on the same action, were you? nah, didn't think so ;) -davey!

In article <881dl0$ehj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Ethan Burrow <saa...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Well Norm, I actually have a Weenie Auspex deck that is more competitive > than you would expect. I'd post it, but I don't have the deck > composition catalogued and I'm at work :^). > > To be fair, it doesn't use a whole lot of intercept...since the weenies > would typically die in combat <g> Ethan, I am working on my own weenie auspex deck. It is inviting because there are two size 3 vampires in the game with superior auspex. A size 3 weenie with Pulse of the Canaille is pretty downright scary. But I have yet to get mine to work. It seems that without stealth to activate the combat abilities of Auspex I just tend to jam up. Tell me if you get anything working. [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > shr...@alumni.williams.edu wrote: > > What is the most powerful discipline? Why? > dominate by far. [... it has] an unlimited bleed enhancer (command of the > beast at superior) Command of the Beast, being an action modifier, is not unlimited. -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Maverick wrote: > All disciplines are equlibrated! What, like that most powerful of disciplines, Necromancy? Some disciplines are demonstrably more powerful than others. When it comes to the very top, and the very bottom, people argue about the order, but it's clear that, say, Dominate is much more powerful than, say, Thaumaturgy. -- James Coupe

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:13:31 +0000, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: >Quietus, in some respects, suffers in the same way as Thaumaturgy. The >disciplines it lines up with, in V:TES terms, aren't great. You can't >stop S:CE or Dodge with it, except with Hidden Lurker. And once that >becomes obvious, blocking dries up and Assamites don't have a good way to >punish that (e.g. bruise and bleed). Well... actually I see QUI having a bit of an advantage over THA, since the Assamites come with a lot of QUI/CEL. The CEL provides access to Psyche! for S:CE, and additional strikes pretty much ruin the plain old Dodge. THA doesn't have -as- easy access to CEL (need lots of skill cards), and even if you do get CEL on them their best first-rounder is theft, theft, soul burn, which SHOULD torporize any 5-blood vampire. Starts to be expensive in terms of cards. The Assamites at least have access to first-round agg, guaranteeing if they get ONE strike in, they get a torporized minion - and they can just say "hand strike" for the rest to avoid wasting cards. Or even play with Acrobatics, for that matter. >It can, and has been, used well. It's just one of the combat disciplines >that's easiest to scupper - like Thaumaturgy, without some serious work >(e.g. Xian's potence-thaumaturgy deck). THA needs a bloody miracle. =/ Next tourney i'm bringing the THA rush deck just to see how awful it will do. I expect a lot of burned vamps and about 2 VPs total for the tourney. =) >And Quietus doesn't have the luxury of mixing and matching with odd >disciplines, because of so few vampires having it naturally. :( But it's GOT the one it needs, CEL. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Derek Ray wrote: > Well... actually I see QUI having a bit of an advantage over THA, > since the Assamites come with a lot of QUI/CEL. Oh, I see plenty of advantages (in some respects) for Quietus. > The CEL provides > access to Psyche! for S:CE, I've always regarded Psyche as a very poor way to go against S:CE. Thing is, with Dog Pack, TB, IG, HL, FR etc., the S:CE can't be played, thus jamming their hand and punishing them. Psyche coutners the card 1 for 1. :( > and additional strikes pretty much ruin > the plain old Dodge. Now, this is true. > THA doesn't have -as- easy access to CEL (need > lots of skill cards), It depends on how its played. Big vampire THA decks have a lot of cel. Not so much CEL, but basic for blur (1) and flash (manuever/press) seems fine. > and even if you do get CEL on them their best > first-rounder is theft, theft, soul burn, which SHOULD torporize any > 5-blood vampire. Shotgun Ritual. >Starts to be expensive in terms of cards. Yup! And blood, for the SR, but it can be fun, > The > Assamites at least have access to first-round agg, guaranteeing if > they get ONE strike in, they get a torporized minion - and they can > just say "hand strike" for the rest to avoid wasting cards. True, but then so can any clan just say "hand strike". > THA needs a bloody miracle. =/ Well, the only good deck is the 35 Cryptic Mission/Society of Leopold one. but that isn't very popular with a lot of people on its being very, very one trick pony. > Next tourney i'm bringing the THA > rush deck just to see how awful it will do. I expect a lot of burned > vamps and about 2 VPs total for the tourney. =) > Good luck! ;) > >And Quietus doesn't have the luxury of mixing and matching with odd > >disciplines, because of so few vampires having it naturally. :( > > But it's GOT the one it needs, CEL. =) CEL is a nice back up discipline. I find QUI a little lack lustre in comparison to, say, Potence, tho. :( -- James Coupe

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:01:11 GMT, X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: >In article <38A24F55...@alumni.williams.edu>, > shr...@alumni.williams.edu wrote: >> What is the weakest discipline? Why? >Auspex. While intercept is a basic game mechanic and Auspex is the best >at intercept, it does little else. Actually it jams your hand up in >most siturations. A light sprinkling of Auspex is wonderful, but if you >created a deck based on it. I imagine it would suffer from hand jam >alot. I object! =) Auspex has Pulse, to bleed. And if you start stopping EVERYTHING that happens around you, you may discover that your prey's deck grinds to a miserable halt, and your predator is forced to take it on the defensive for awhile. Now the trick is figuring out how to OUST your prey. But Auspex is probably the best 'defensive' discipline. It intercepts (easily), which shuts down votes It bleed bounces (tel. misdirection, which is dual w/intercept) It bleed reduces (tel. counter... nasty nasty card) It has some combat toys (aura reading, read intentions, primal instincts) Its biggest weakness is that it doesn't have much to SURVIVE combat. But against the focussed heavy-bleed, monster-vote, oust-quickly decks, it absolutely wipes the floor with them. The stock Govern+Bonding bleed looks kinda silly when someone dumps a pair of Telepathic Counters on it. [ quoted text not captured ]

To the methuselahs who think that Auspex is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Great! I'll see you all at the next tournament. Make sure to bring your auspex deck to play with. Auspex is a great support discipline, but it sucks as a discipline to use as the backbone of your deck Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > Auspex is a great support discipline, but it sucks as a discipline to > use as the backbone of your deck Very true. It's a *great* support discipline - intercept, bleed bounce, bleed reduction. It's not the weakest discipline, by a long shot. A week discipline on its own, I would agree - but then, so are quite a few. -- James Coupe

X_Ze...@email.msn.com writes: >> Which discipline do you find yourself playing the most? (not >> necessarily the same as the first thing). Why? > >Dominate, Bleed Bounce: I give my prey all the grief you give to me. >Mwhahahahaha. Not much good if your preditor is packing a rush combat deck! ("Bleed bounce THIS, sucka!") :) Fred

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:43:15 GMT, X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: >To the methuselahs who think that Auspex is the greatest thing since >sliced bread. > >Great! I'll see you all at the next tournament. Make sure to bring your >auspex deck to play with. I'll bring my all-auspex deck (the weakest discipline, according to you, i believe) and you bring your all-dominate deck (the strongest) and we'll see who goes where. =) If you're my predator, you won't be able to do a damn thing to me - I have bounce, reduce, and intercept, and Seduction only stops one vampire at a time from blocking you. If you're my prey, I probably can't do much to you either, since my only offense is Pulse of the Canaille - however, it's worth noting that if you spend your whole time bouncing my *permanent* bleeds of 3, you'll run out of bounce eventually. >Auspex is a great support discipline, but it sucks as a discipline to >use as the backbone of your deck Hm, think so? I have a lovely Tzimisce Aus/Ani deck that is about dead even between the two disciplines... it made it to the finals of the last Atlanta tournament in 3rd place (and didn't go far largely because of seating position - being stuck between a POT rush deck and a FOR prevent/bounce deck). As far as using it as the backbone.. i'm certain you can generate an intercept deck that gains a consistent 2VP every round with it. Of course, 2VP is not enough to win once it got to the finals. So that'd be tricky. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <9D75496FA0A40726.F7ECCCF4...@lp.airnews.net>, lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:43:15 GMT, X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > >To the methuselahs who think that Auspex is the greatest thing since > >sliced bread. > > > >Great! I'll see you all at the next tournament. Make sure to bring your > >auspex deck to play with. > > I'll bring my all-auspex deck (the weakest discipline, according to > you, i believe) and you bring your all-dominate deck (the strongest) > and we'll see who goes where. =) If you're my predator, you won't be > able to do a damn thing to me - I have bounce, reduce, and intercept, > and Seduction only stops one vampire at a time from blocking you. If > you're my prey, I probably can't do much to you either, since my only > offense is Pulse of the Canaille - however, it's worth noting that if > you spend your whole time bouncing my *permanent* bleeds of 3, you'll > run out of bounce eventually. I doubt that I will have to bounce you all the time as I could merely block you as auspex combat is sorely lacking and there is no such animal as auspex stealth. Dominate on the other hand has obedience which will stop you dead in your tracks unless you happen to be using a older vampire and at superior you stay tapped and I don't. In addition after paying for your pulse of canaille's you will have 3 less blood on your vampire, it would behoove you to regain some of that before entering combat with my vampires. > >Auspex is a great support discipline, but it sucks as a discipline to > >use as the backbone of your deck > > Hm, think so? I have a lovely Tzimisce Aus/Ani deck that is about > dead even between the two disciplines... it made it to the finals of > the last Atlanta tournament in 3rd place (and didn't go far largely > because of seating position - being stuck between a POT rush deck and > a FOR prevent/bounce deck). As far as using it as the backbone.. i'm > certain you can generate an intercept deck that gains a consistent 2VP > every round with it. Of course, 2VP is not enough to win once it got > to the finals. So that'd be tricky. And I have a lovely Gangrel/Dominate deck that will make swiss cheese out of that deck and end up owning most of your vampires ala grave robbing. We can play this game all day. I will stand by my opinions and you can stand by yours. BTW, I was at Dragon Con tournament in Atlanta I assume that the tournament you are refering to has happened since then. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp > -- Derek > > Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music. > It only stopped them hearing the distractions. > [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <882ehj$eu4$1...@nntp6.atl.mindspring.net>, [ quoted text not captured ] Actually Fred, Obedience will work at stopping you cold in your tracks if the rushing vampire is younger and Thoughts betrayed will stop every strike card in the deck. I would get mauled by a Brujah IG torn-signpost deck, but I wouldn't rely on dominate to get me out of that position. I would, hopefully, have packed something extra into the deck to deal with just such and occasion (i.e.leather jackets) Comments Welcome Norman S, Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > Actually Fred, Obedience will work at stopping you cold in your tracks > if the rushing vampire is younger and Thoughts betrayed will stop every > strike card in the deck. I would get mauled by a Brujah IG > torn-signpost deck, Also, the Trap-Undead Persistence deck would have some fun with you, as would a gangrel - it can either claw you, or it can play numerous copies of Drawing Out The Beast with a Skin of Steel to stop the damage. A Dawn Op/Weather Control deck, or a Weather Control deck (with or without UP) could also be fun. Gun decks have an obvious advantage, but they're generally not that great though. As you say, a fairly large amount of other combat defence would be needed. It may even be better to ditch the TB because, whilst it's still a highly usable card, Dominate bleed is not generally cheap - those Dominate Kine/Conditioning combos start to add up. :( -- James Coupe

On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:49:11 GMT, X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: >And I have a lovely Gangrel/Dominate deck that will make swiss cheese >out of that deck and end up owning most of your vampires ala grave >robbing. We can play this game all day. I will stand by my opinions >and you can stand by yours. I'm not going to respond to the silly one-upmanship crap in this post. I pointed out that I possess an effective AUS-based deck that made it to the finals in a recent tournament, as a refutation of "AUS is no good". I can create any deck that will be the exact opposite of any of your decks, and hose them completely. This doesn't mean that your decks suck, or my decks r00l, or whatever, and I rather resent your quoting some deck or other and implying "bah, i'm right because i have this one deck that supposedly would do this to your deck." >BTW, I was at Dragon Con tournament in Atlanta I assume that the >tournament you are refering to has happened since then. November, actually. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <FFD397C0ED899E46.F8EA3070...@lp.airnews.net>, lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote: > On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:49:11 GMT, X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > I'm not going to respond to the silly one-upmanship crap in this post. > I pointed out that I possess an effective AUS-based deck that made it > to the finals in a recent tournament, as a refutation of "AUS is no > good". I can create any deck that will be the exact opposite of any > of your decks, and hose them completely. This doesn't mean that your > decks suck, or my decks r00l, or whatever, and I rather resent your > quoting some deck or other and implying "bah, i'm right because i have > this one deck that supposedly would do this to your deck." As I said before, I think Auspex is the weakest discipline. Some people think it is animalism, I think otherwise. You stand beside your opinions and I will stand by mine. Thanks for the Attention Norman S. Brown Jr. [ quoted text not captured ]

Nice little survey, I'll make a few quick answers that you've probably already seen. >What is the most powerful discipline? Why? Dominate & Presence (Tied). Not only do they both have the capability of a 3+ bleed by weenies but they also have versatility (Steal, Bounce, S:CE, etc..) >What is the weakest discipline? Why? I'm going to buck the trend and say CELERITY. It unargueably excellent in combat, full of Maneuvers, Press, Dodge, Addtional Strike, and so on. All the other disciplines stand up pretty well on their own, Celerity is purely a helper discipline. With Potence, Presence, Auspex, and so on it's fantastic. But on it's own take a look: Bleed: I'll Cat Burglary you to death (cough) Bounce: Nope Rush: None Vote: Uh-Uh Combat: Pretty Good, but can't really lay the smackdown without a helper discipline or Weapons. Variety is the spice of life, and Celerity is on a respirator.. >Which discipline do you find yourself playing the most? (not >necessarily the same as the first thing). Why? Obfuscate. Not just for the stealth, but for the variety it adds to any deck (Mask, Disguised Weapon, Memory's Fading Glimpse, and so on). >As I was writing these questions, I realized that the 7 new >disciplines (chi, nec, ser, qui, dem, obt, and vis) are by and large >outclassed by the original set. So I think I will limit this to the >original set... Fair enough, but I don't think you'll find many to argue that Necromancy isn't the worst of any and all.. Bernie Bresnahan MichCard Moderator.

On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > As I said before, I think Auspex is the weakest discipline. Some people > think it is animalism, I think otherwise. You stand beside your > opinions and I will stand by mine. Your opinions seem only to be based aroudn the fact that Auspex is weak as a mono-discipline (many are) and that you can build decks which don't care about it. This is true of many disciplines. You have yet to actually provide any real reasoning as to why Auspex is weak, AFAICS. -- James Coupe

Derek Ray wrote: > > On Wed, 09 Feb 2000 21:40:37 -0800, Chris Shorb & Tammy Martin > <shr...@alumni.williams.edu> wrote: > > >What is the most powerful discipline? Why? And you can get it at superior on two > different 4-cap vampires, at inferior on two different 2-cap vampires, > and there are a LOT of 3-caps and 4-caps with inferior. Get some Sabbat, if you can :-(, dom on a 1 cap and 2 more 2 caps (total 4). My vote goes to Pro. 3 Stealths. 3 Combat ends. Agg damage prevention. Adaptability Large Damage prevention. Flesh oM. Ranged and close Agg. +1/2 Agg hand damage for all strikes. Additional Strike. Presses and Maneuvers. Out of Topor (Movement otSB). Unblockable. Untap each untap. and the multi Maneuvers card. Downside lots of blood cost. > >What is the weakest discipline? Why? ie which 2 cap is the most toast! anyone with only ani. However a Dotb/AFB deck is a bit evil. > >Which discipline do you find yourself playing the most? (not > >necessarily the same as the first thing). Why? Dom. Prey = 0 pool.

In article <Pine.SOL.4.10a.100021...@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>, [ quoted text not captured ] You are pretty good at attacking people, James. I haven't seen you post a response to the question that was posted at the beginning of the thread. What are your opinions other than you disagree with mine? What is your stance on the strongest and weakest disciplines? All I have seen you do is attack my position without voicing your own. You are like a irritating gnat. Get out of the cheap seats and get on the field I spit on your 2 cents, [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > You are pretty good at attacking people, James. I haven't seen you post > a response to the question that was posted at the beginning of the > thread. Then you may need to contact your ISP. Their news-server may be ones do), I would set the time for download (if using the NEWNEWS protocol) back to the date of the start of the thread and work from there. My posts will then download. Alternatively, searching DejaNews (www.deja.com) will show you them. If needs be (its a little trouble to generate) I can provide message IDs for you to search DejaNews with (http://www.deja.com/forms/mid.shtml) > What are your opinions other than you disagree with mine? That, in this instance, I fail to see that you have asserted a case for why Auspex is weak - just that you can build decks to get around it. That doesn't make Auspex weak, that just means that you can build specific decks - a necessary skill, at times, especially if, say, your group finds a specific deck type dominating. In these instances, it is often necessary to build a deck type which clearly circumvents it (e.g. if Fortitude excels in your group, use the Thaumaturgy cards to get round it, if bleed excels, use a lot of bleed bounce - and so on). However, that a specific counter exists for a deck or a discipline does not make that deck or discipline intrinsically weak. > What > is your stance on the strongest and weakest disciplines? I have already clearly stated that, in my opinion, Dominate is generally voiced as the strongest discipline. This is a position I would tend to agree with, though I can see why Fortitude is also a strong discipline played mono. I believe, though, that Dominate, played in tandem with a sensible discipline (e.g. presence, obfuscate etc. - something that matches up in a clan and meshes well with Dominate), is probably superior. > All I have > seen you do is attack my position without voicing your own. Again, I suggest you check your ISPs news-server, or your own news-reading software. Clearly, one of them is at fault. I have clearly stated that I believe Auspex to be a very, very useful discipline, but not one I would use as a mono-discipline,and most likely one I would use either for intercept combat, or for intercept in a deck as a secondary discipline where intercept was needed. Further, if you were playing someone like the Tremere, it could be useful for bounce (though Dominate might be a better choice, depending on your vampires). Similarly, the Toreador and Tzimisce (both clans which could benefit from bleed bounce or reduction) can happily use them. The Malkavians, too, though I tend to see a lot of dominate out with them (naturally) so generally bleed bounce is good. With regards actual weakest discipline, I can see many arguments in favour of Thaumaturgy, but am not entirely certain. In general, I tend to regard most mono-discipline decks as reasonably shaky, though Dominate and Fortitude have some quite useful advantages. As such, I tend to regard how well a discipline does when used to its best advantage - with the right vampires, equipment, master cards, and so on. (Potence, on its own, has truoble maneuvering, Auspex has trouble hitting back once it has intercepted, Celerity can't really capitalise on the excellent positions it can generate in combat. Working with a second discipline helps here.) > I spit on your 2 cents, Cool. I don't think I have any of those anyway. Perhaps some in a jar at home. -- James Coupe