Let us count her points.
She's a clanned, sected vampire. 5 points of disciplines. A Primogin
(worth 1.5 according to some people), a silly special (worth .5) and
+1 intercept (That's worth a point).
Total points. 1+5+1.5+.5+1
She's got nine points of stuff...
So... White wolf IS in this game to appease their players. Make the
most popular clan the most powerful? :)
~SV
vermillian <vermil...@yahoo.com> escribió en el mensaje de noticias
f987c6cd.02072...@posting.google.com...
> Let us count her points.
>
> She's a clanned, sected vampire. 5 points of disciplines. A Primogin
> (worth 1.5 according to some people), a silly special (worth .5) and
> +1 intercept (That's worth a point).
I don't think of her special as silly. Recruit an infernal familiar. Use it.
When the InfFam reahces 7 counters, eat it during the untap. Equip with a
brand new Inf Fam. As InfFam is being reprinted, this one shall become the
Ian Forrestal for us who don't own Sabbat cards.
>
> Total points. 1+5+1.5+.5+1
>
> She's got nine points of stuff...
>
> So... White wolf IS in this game to appease their players. Make the
> most popular clan the most powerful? :)
>
> ~SV
Compared to Cara, Anvil is an overcosted vampire. Seems similar to some
sabbat midcaps as Sela, Reverend Blackwood, Jost Werner and so.
Tom,Mad&Co
vermillian wrote:
> Let us count her points.
>
> She's a clanned, sected vampire. 5 points of disciplines. A Primogin
> (worth 1.5 according to some people), a silly special (worth .5) and
> +1 intercept (That's worth a point).
Which people think primogen = 1.5?
I've never heard of these people.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
"vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f987c6cd.02072...@posting.google.com...
> Let us count her points.
>
> She's a clanned, sected vampire. 5 points of disciplines. A Primogin
> (worth 1.5 according to some people), a silly special (worth .5) and
> +1 intercept (That's worth a point).
>
> Total points. 1+5+1.5+.5+1
>
> She's got nine points of stuff...
I find it less confusing to use the "current industry standard"
point system as apparently endorsed by LSJ:
Inferior: 1 point
Superior: 2 point
Title: 0.5 points per vote. (Bishop/Primogen = 0.5,
Prince/Archbishop/Priscus/2
votes = 1, Cardinal/Justicar = 1.5, IC = 2).
+1 bleed or +1 hand damage = 1 point
Weird specials: Typically 1 or 2 points. Corner-case specials are often
free.
Points:
1-4 caps: Capacity - 1
5-6 caps: Capacity
7-8 caps: Capacity + 1
9-10 caps: Capacity + 2
So Carna, with 3 superiors, has 6 points of disciplines, 1
point for the +1 intercept, 0.5 point for being primogen,
and apparently about 0.5 point for the "eat a retainer"
special. 8 points for a 7 cap is the current standard, so
there you go.
Check Jost Werner for a comparable example: 2 superiors =
4 points, 1 inferior = 1 point, +1 stealth = 1 point -> 6
points for a 6-cap.
Josh
overcosted
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com>
<snip>
> So Carna, with 3 superiors, has 6 points of disciplines, 1
> point for the +1 intercept, 0.5 point for being primogen,
> and apparently about 0.5 point for the "eat a retainer"
> special. 8 points for a 7 cap is the current standard, so
> there you go.
Yeah, but they aren't any three superiors, they are three in clan superiors.
This is huge man. You can't say that a Tremere with superior SANguinus,
DOMinate and AUSpex is worth the same as a Tremere with DOM THA AUS, it's
just not true. Disciplines can be worthless just as specials can be, and in
this case everything printed on the card has worth. That's huge!
-Tim Bowen
Columbus, OH
> Yeah, but they aren't any three superiors, they are three in clan
superiors.
> This is huge man.
Indeed. Previously there were only 5 Tremere who had all 3 "inclans" at
superior and their capacties ran 8, 9, 10, 10, and 11 (Etrius). Even more
amazing is that of those 5 only Etrius is in group 2. This new Tremere is a
god send for the fans of Tremere.
>> So Carna, with 3 superiors, has 6 points of disciplines, 1
>> point for the +1 intercept, 0.5 point for being primogen,
>> and apparently about 0.5 point for the "eat a retainer"
>> special. 8 points for a 7 cap is the current standard, so
>> there you go.>
>Yeah, but they aren't any three superiors, they are three in clan superiors.
>This is huge man. You can't say that a Tremere with superior SANguinus,
>DOMinate and AUSpex is worth the same as a Tremere with DOM THA AUS, it's
>just not true. Disciplines can be worthless just as specials can be, and in
>this case everything printed on the card has worth. That's huge!
Which is the main reason I designed my own point system. The Princess, by my
system, comes out as an elite 7 cap. *Shrug*
"Timothy F. Bowen" <TimB...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ai3svf$116r23$1...@ID-153359.news.dfncis.de...
>
> Yeah, but they aren't any three superiors, they are three in clan
> superiors. This is huge man. You can't say that a Tremere with superior
> SANguinus, DOMinate and AUSpex is worth the same as a Tremere with DOM
> THA AUS, it's just not true. Disciplines can be worthless just as
> specials can be, and in this case everything printed on the card has
> worth. That's huge!
No, but one with OBF DOM THA would probably be better. ;-)
I do agree that "which disciplines" matters but I don't really
agree that "in clan" is normally better than "out of clan". What
matters is whether there are other vampires to match the discipline
combination to, and whether the disciplines are themselves good
(individually and as a team).
I think the "own point system" Ian (curevei) alluded to, for
example, rates Dominate and Presence and maybe others higher than
other disciplines.
Josh
present and accounting for
>I do agree that "which disciplines" matters but I don't really
>agree that "in clan" is normally better than "out of clan". What
>matters is whether there are other vampires to match the discipline
>combination to, and whether the disciplines are themselves good
>(individually and as a team).
The reason inclan disciplines are better* is precisely because there are more
vampires with those combinations of disciplines. Being able to fill out a
crypt (minimizing duplication when possible) is important to a deck working.
* On average. A point system can't accurately take in every individual
difference between vampires and still be useful as a design guideline.
cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20020729143728...@mb-da.aol.com>...
> >I do agree that "which disciplines" matters but I don't really
> >agree that "in clan" is normally better than "out of clan". What
> >matters is whether there are other vampires to match the discipline
> >combination to, and whether the disciplines are themselves good
> >(individually and as a team).
>> The reason inclan disciplines are better is precisely because there are more> vampires with those combinations of disciplines. Being able to fill out a
> crypt (minimizing duplication when possible) is important to a deck working.
While I agree that the very existence of in clan disciplines makes it
easier to focus a deck for a certain task, conversely, it would impose
limitations on the same set of vampires precisely because they focus
so strongly in only 3 areas.
I'm not sure if it's just because people are creative, get bored or
want to splice some "good stuff" together, but people do seek out
interesting combinations to play. It doesn't take much effort to look
through the TWD list and find a healthy number of decks winning
tournaments that don't just splash an extra clan (I'd say two clans of
4+ vampires is the threshhold here. To me, this means you're serious
enough to really want one of each clan in your opening crypt.)
Anyway, for this reason I would consider out of clan disciplines to be
rated on par with in clan. The only exception I'd make is low-cap
vampires which a significant portion of out of clan disciplines--which
could be considered a liability.
Jeff
>> The reason inclan disciplines are better is precisely because there are>more>> vampires with those combinations of disciplines. Being able to fill out a
>> crypt (minimizing duplication when possible) is important to a deck>working.
>
>While I agree that the very existence of in clan disciplines makes it
>easier to focus a deck for a certain task, conversely, it would impose
>limitations on the same set of vampires precisely because they focus
>so strongly in only 3 areas.
>
>I'm not sure if it's just because people are creative, get bored or
>want to splice some "good stuff" together, but people do seek out
>interesting combinations to play. It doesn't take much effort to look
>through the TWD list and find a healthy number of decks winning
>tournaments that don't just splash an extra clan (I'd say two clans of
>4+ vampires is the threshhold here. To me, this means you're serious
>enough to really want one of each clan in your opening crypt.)
>
>Anyway, for this reason I would consider out of clan disciplines to be
>rated on par with in clan. The only exception I'd make is low-cap
>vampires which a significant portion of out of clan disciplines--which
>could be considered a liability.
Point system is not going to be able to accurately gauge each and every
situation. The valuations of various features of vampires is an average
valuation for a feature. On average, out of clan disciplines, with the
exception of Dominate and possibly Presence, are worth significantly less than
in clan disciplines.
A point system is not the way to tell how good a vampire is. A point system
that correlates strongly with the strength of vampires as determined from
experience is a good one to use as a design guideline. I've run the numbers
using my system for every vampire through SW. Perfect? Hardly. But, mostly
consistent with experience. More consistent with experience than some of the
point systems I've seen posted as being ones used.
"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote in message
news:20020730024447...@mb-cb.aol.com...
>
> Point system is not going to be able to accurately gauge each and every
> situation. The valuations of various features of vampires is an average
> valuation for a feature. On average, out of clan disciplines, with the
> exception of Dominate and possibly Presence, are worth significantly
> less than in clan disciplines.
Sure. But this is mainly (IMO) because "clan disciplines" exist
and apply to most vampires.
Suppose we were actually allowed to "dial a vamp" to build our
crypts. In that case, any discipline combination you wanted
would be available in any combination you wanted. If you could
do that, wouldn't costing "out of clan" disciplines at a reduction
from "in clan" prices be "abusable" compared to costing all
disciplines the same?
Yes, some disciplines are certainly better than others, and some
combinations are better than others. But if all combinations
were allowed, I'd think that for practicality you'd want to price
all disciplines the same for all vampires.
In the game as it stands, where apparently *not* allowing all
possible discipline combinations in a crypt is part of the design
theory, I think you're right that "out of clan" disciplines will
generally be less usable than "in clan" ones, and maybe they
should get some price break for that. But even here in the "real
world" ;-) people do get some use out of weird non-clan discipline
combinations, especially when "out of clan" superiors are
available.
Josh
likes PRO SER