Concern with mild racism of BH vampire art

When Black Hand first came out, there was some discussion on this newsgroup as to the racist name of "Tarbaby Jack". I can't tell from the lighting of the card whether the Nosferatu is even black or not. Probably couldn't tell anyway since he's a Nossie and all. I'm inclined to think that the term "tarbaby" was probably not meant in the racist connotation that some people assumed. There are also reasons why the character might take on such a name. In any case, no real harm done I think. But I am a little concerned by the images used for Jesus Alcala, Wah Chun-Yuen and Blackhorse Tanner. All three vampires have fantastic art, I must say... no complaints in that department. I'm just wondering why the artists would choose to use imagery that is so obviously stereotypical. Now, I've never been to Mexico, so maybe I'm wrong here, but do Mexicans actually walk around looking like that? I half expect him to be holding a taco and riding a burro or something... That said, the image itself is fantastic IMHO. Coolest image by Steve Prescott yet. Wah Chun-Yen looks like he is living in Victorian London. A lot of vampires are anachronisms I guess, but it seems odd to me that the artist would choose to make an obviously Chinese vampire into some kind of Charlie Chan, rather than simply making a vampire that happened to be Chinese. Look at Nicholas Chang. He doesn't seem like a stereotype to me. He just needs a better haircut maybe. Along the same lines, Blackhorse Tanner has the whole bead thing going on. Not too overt, and I've encountered the occasional native here in Canada that also does the bead thing. No big deal. But it still seems kind of over-the-top to me somehow. I've met more native Canadians that don't wear the beads than do. Still, at least Andrew Trabbold didn't give him warpaint and a full head dress thingy (what the hell are those called anyway?). These aren't really meant to be serious complaints so much as observations. It's not overt racism, nor is it particularly harmful, but it still seems kind of weird to me. Kind of like saying to a Chinese person "Oh, you must be good at math." It seems that White Wolf has been making an effort to include more minorities in the game (both in the ccg and rpg), which I applaud. Past mistakes (IMHO) of the Assamites and Ravnos especially are slowly being addressed by the company, and in as sensitive a way as possible. Not all "Gypsies" are thieves and not all Arabs/Muslims are terrorist assassins. Expanding the overall concept of these clans is a good start to correcting what I view as implicit racism. (Killing off all of the Ravnos is a little weird, viewed in this light, but I digress :) I mean it's not like 99% of vampires in the World of Darkness would really be white heterosexual Euro-types (though I imagine the players quite likely are). Including vampires like Chang, Sister Evelyn, Celeste and Banjoko et al is a good thing I think. Adds some colour to the game... literally. But I humbly recommend a little bit of sensitivity on the part of the artists when doing so. If we get a French vampire in Gehenna who is wearing a beret and carrying a baguette, I'm outta here :) Anyway, just some thoughts... Cheers, WES P.S. Waaaay back in comic-book history, there was a time when Captain America was fired by the U.S. government and replaced with another, slightly more psychotic hero, who took up the same costume and name. The new Cap was assigned a black side-kick named "Bucky" (after the original boy wonder who had long since died). Most readers were of course unaware that "Bucky" had also been used as a racist term for black people. Obviously, neither had the writers. It was quickly rectified, and in a very sensitive and innovative way. The writer (the under-rated Marc Gruenwald) incorporated this into the actual storyline and had "Bucky" complain about the racist name he was given. Marvel also apologized for the slip-up. Anyway, I always thought that was a pretty cool way to address the problem. P.S.S. For disclosure sake, I am a white heterosexual Euro-type. That's probably obvious to anyone reading this though :)

I think you are reading far to much in to this, and your attempt to be offended has offended me. So please refrain from offending the offensive while playing offense offhandedly because any offhand offer can offend similarly to a can of Off offing a insect who is off the lawn off the street. Off the cuff comments drive me straight off the edge which often there is no way to beg off. So please go back to beating off. Comments Offered, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Often Archon of the Off-Color Swamp

"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote > I think you are reading far to much in to this, and your attempt to be > offended has offended me. I am hardly "attempting to be offended". I could well be wrong, but I didn't post what I did without feeling justified to do so. If you were offended by what I wrote, you are far more sensitive than I am. > So please go back to beating off. You are welcome to disagree with me, Norm... though I don't think I am really making many statements that need agreeing or disagreeing with. These are simply observations about the new set that disturbed me and I am curious if other players had a similar reaction. You apparently don't care whether the images are appropriate or not. Great. But I don't think comments like "please go back to beating off" are appropriate or necessary. Mutual friends of ours seem to respect you for some reason, Norm, but whenever you have responded to myself and other people on this newsgroup, you seem to prefer immature and incoherent ad hominem attacks like this to intelligent discourse. If you're not up to actual discussion, so be it. But if you are, by all means discuss what I have posted. That's kind of why I posted it. Cheers, WES

Wes <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> a écrit dans le message : bqbnd...@enews1.newsguy.com... >If we get a French vampire in Gehenna who is > wearing a beret and carrying a baguette, I'm outta here :) lol! and give him the head of Kamel or Stephane! yes, please do! it would be nice for an "unglued" expansion ;-) Stone

> When Black Hand first came out, there was some discussion on this > newsgroup as to the racist name of "Tarbaby Jack". I can't tell from the > lighting of the card whether the Nosferatu is even black or not. > Probably couldn't tell anyway since he's a Nossie and all. I'm inclined > to think that the term "tarbaby" was probably not meant in the racist > connotation that some people assumed. There are also reasons why the > character might take on such a name. In any case, no real harm done I > think. > > But I am a little concerned by the images used for Jesus Alcala, Wah > Chun-Yuen and Blackhorse Tanner. > > All three vampires have fantastic art, I must say... no complaints in > that department. I'm just wondering why the artists would choose to use > imagery that is so obviously stereotypical. Héhéhé... I sort of agree with all that you said about "implicit racism", Wes, especially regarding the creation of the 4 indies (and italians are all mobsters...) ; I don't think it's really the case for the BH vampires, though : the victorian chinaman looks great ; and there are some nice black breasts out there too now. ;-) But the "foreigners" (non-WASP) tend to be a little caricatural, that's for sure. On the other hand, when you create a RPG character, you have to give him some very remarkable traits if you want other players to get a clear picture of him, and I guess that applies to many cards (except Shy's maybe) : big beard, long trenchcoat, red velvet cloth covering the eyes, etc. > >If we get a French vampire in Gehenna who is > > wearing a beret and carrying a baguette, I'm outta here :) > > lol! and give him the head of Kamel or Stephane! yes, please do! it would be > nice for an "unglued" expansion ;-) > Stone LOL For now the french have been spared with that, thankfully !! We only get nice-looking women (in itself, it could be deemed a form of caricature) and a centuries-old poet, but there have been worse cases (like in that awful "A werewolf in Paris" movie, with all the stereotypes you depict and worse !!). But then, we are a strong and buying VTES community, and either the béret / baguette or the face of Kamel would get most of the frenchmen not to buy anymore cards !!! ;-) Orpheus

"Stone" <mc_judg...@yahoo.fr> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3fc99b47$0$2781$626a...@news.free.fr... [ quoted text not captured ] And please add the flavor text : "Ah, ce sont les sales Français qui pues et qui pisses aux cathédrales" :-))))) DISCLAIMER : For all french speaking persons who might be offended by the flavor text : this is a long time joke carried on by me and some of the players in Paris. Just in case. :-) -- johannes walch v:ekn germany - http://www.vekn.de/

> > >If we get a French vampire in Gehenna who is > > > wearing a beret and carrying a baguette, I'm outta here :) > > > > lol! and give him the head of Kamel or Stephane! yes, please do! it would > be > > nice for an "unglued" expansion ;-) > > Stone > > And please add the flavor text : "Ah, ce sont les sales Français qui pues et > qui pisses aux cathédrales" > :-))))) ROTFL !! > DISCLAIMER : For all french speaking persons who might be offended by the > flavor text : this is a long time joke carried on by me and some of the > players in Paris. > Just in case. :-) They pissed on a cathedral and I wasn't there ?!?! :( Orpheus

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote >But I am a little concerned by the images used for Jesus Alcala, Wah >Chun-Yuen and Blackhorse Tanner. Jesus and Wah Chun also disturbed me somehow. Jesus is well drawn and all, even if it looks like everything but a vampire (plus he is portrayed during daylight??) But i really wondered why a vamp with a mexican name should be represented this kind of clothes + a sombrero. If you're supposed to do some "stereotype markings", better do it elegantly and discreetly , as a wink to the player. It's like "hey my name is jesus ! mexican folkore in your face !" and i don't think it's really good for the game. Wah Chun is worst since it carries the old victorian china-chimpanzee stereotype found in english detective stories from the last century, with fu manchu masterminds and their kung fu thuggies. Disgusting to say the least. For Blackhorse Tanner, i think the reference is more subtle and so does not shock me. Maybe the war paints and feather stuff would have been too much, as you have hilighted. Banjoko strikes me as having quite a colorful, ridiculous name and no family patronyme at all. He reminds me of Watenda : so black people in africa don't have a family name ? why is that ? -I know you'll tell me that vamps like lucita, fatima, democritus, ozmo et all don't have a family name either htere is still this strange feeling. Some people will just say that offense is in the eye (mind) of the offended, but i still feel strange with those cards. As a side note, i am a bit puzzled when i see the new crusades for european cities : especially brussels and barcelona. Is it so difficult to actually gather images/photographs of our cities to depict them on a card ? or is it more convenient to put any dark background hoping that no one will tell the difference from one town to the other ? =(

"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3fc9edae$0$19239$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net... > > "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote > > >But I am a little concerned by the images used for Jesus Alcala, Wah > >Chun-Yuen and Blackhorse Tanner. > > Jesus and Wah Chun also disturbed me somehow. > > Jesus is well drawn and all, even if it looks like everything but a vampire > (plus he is portrayed during daylight??) > > But i really wondered why a vamp with a mexican name should be represented > this kind of clothes + a sombrero. Perhaps if you took aggravated damage from sunlight you would wear a sombrero as well. -JTP

<snip> i'm sorry to say i would NEVER have noticed any of that on my own. i thought a tarbaby was a lump of oakum, had NO IDEA that Blackhorse Tanner was an Amerindian, i spose i did get the idea that Jesus was Mexican and Wah was Sino-British but thought nothing of it. However, why does the guy in the foreground of Crusade: Barcelona have a kilt?

[ quoted text not captured ] If you had been at the E.C., you would recognize my friend Jean-Michel... ;-) Orpheus

In message <bqbnd...@enews1.newsguy.com>, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> mumbled something about: >When Black Hand first came out, there was some discussion on this >newsgroup as to the racist name of "Tarbaby Jack". I can't tell from the >lighting of the card whether the Nosferatu is even black or not. I thought he was white, personally, judging from the color of his hair. But take, for example, Beast: what would HE put in the 'race' checkbox? Or would he just eat the pen? Trying to tell with a Nosferatu is most likely just pointless. =) >Probably couldn't tell anyway since he's a Nossie and all. I'm inclined >to think that the term "tarbaby" was probably not meant in the racist >connotation that some people assumed. There are also reasons why the I'm inclined to agree. >But I am a little concerned by the images used for Jesus Alcala, Wah >Chun-Yuen and Blackhorse Tanner. SPEEDY GONZALEZ! Carter, the Unstoppable Sex Machine now has a partner in crime. Speedy has slept with EEEEVERYBODY's seester! (If you have not seen classic Warner Brothers cartoons, this will make no sense to you. Just move on.) >All three vampires have fantastic art, I must say... no complaints in >that department. I'm just wondering why the artists would choose to use >imagery that is so obviously stereotypical. DEATH TO POLITICAL CORRECTNESS! WOOHOO! Honestly, I busted out openly laughing at our prerelease when I drew Speedy in a pack. It's just damned funny. Politically incorrect? Sure! Screw the PCers anyway; if they had their way we couldn't even talk about vampires, because there's a disease that resembles vampirism a great deal and making a game of it is disrespectful to those sufferers. Bah. >Now, I've never been to Mexico, so maybe I'm wrong here, but do Mexicans >actually walk around looking like that? I half expect him to be holding >a taco and riding a burro or something... That said, the image itself is >fantastic IMHO. Coolest image by Steve Prescott yet. I am in no danger of confusing him with any real Mexicans, because he is a cartoon... much like Speedy Gonzalez. >Wah Chun-Yen looks like he is living in Victorian London. A lot of Oddjob! >Along the same lines, Blackhorse Tanner has the whole bead thing going >on. Not too overt, and I've encountered the occasional native here in >Canada that also does the bead thing. No big deal. But it still seems >kind of over-the-top to me somehow. I've met more native Canadians that Works of fiction do better over-the-top than understated, as does art which can't be appreciated in full but instead is only seen on a very small card. That's one of the great things about fiction -- it CAN mock reality. >is a good thing I think. Adds some colour to the game... literally. But >I humbly recommend a little bit of sensitivity on the part of the >artists when doing so. If we get a French vampire in Gehenna who is >wearing a beret and carrying a baguette, I'm outta here :) You mean like Francois Villon? Haven't heard anyone complain about him yet... >P.S.S. For disclosure sake, I am a white heterosexual Euro-type. That's >probably obvious to anyone reading this though :) I'm a Danish-Irish-American heterosexual, which makes me tall, broad, redheaded, pale-skinned, and inclined to drink, brawl, and hit on women excessively. ...come to think of it, that was probably obvious by now too. -- Derek "From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of idiots." - unknown

Wes wrote: > But I am a little concerned by the images used for Jesus Alcala, Wah > Chun-Yuen and Blackhorse Tanner. Jesús Alcalá /is/ a mariachi. That's his trade. He makes a living (even in unlife) at it. Dressing the part is necessary. See Mexico City by Night. For similar background on Wah Chun-Yen, see Caine's Chosen. For Blackhorse: what's the problem? /That/ is over-the-top for you? Oooh-Kay. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

legbiter wrote: > However, why does the guy in the foreground of Crusade: Barcelona have > a kilt? I was under the impression that it was a catholic school girl. They have those in Barcelona, right? Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "The gun is good! The penis is bad!" -Zardoz

"legbiter" <legb...@mailandnews.com> wrote > > However, why does the guy in the foreground of Crusade: Barcelona have > a kilt? Actually, I thought that was a catholic schoolgirl in the foreground. Which raises the additional question of what the guy in the background is doing... Not a big fan of Drew Tucker, for this very reason. I prefer my V:tES art to be somewhat realistic, as much as vampire art can be realistic I guess. Cheers, WES

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > > Jesús Alcalá /is/ a mariachi. That's his trade. He makes a living (even > in unlife) at it. Dressing the part is necessary. See Mexico City by Night. I guess that makes some sense, though it would be hard to get the backstory just from the cards. I'm also not sure that this really addresses the problem, but I can't really blame the artist for portraying the character as he appears in the books. > For similar background on Wah Chun-Yen, see Caine's Chosen. I didn't realize that either Jesus or Wah were vampires from the books. I haven't read any of the books since... the original clan novels I think? Still, this switches the onus of responsibility from the artists to the writers/editors, I suppose. Change the subject line instead to "Concern with mild racism of Mexico City by Night and Caine's Chosen" :) I'll try to pick up those books sometime. I'm curious now. > For Blackhorse: what's the problem? /That/ is > over-the-top for you? Oooh-Kay. No, the only one I would say is over-the-top is Jesus. As mentioned, I have met plenty of natives who do wear the beads. And presumably someone who calls himself Blackhorse would likely be one of those people. But the majority of natives *do not*, so accenting the "nativeness" of a vampire character just seems odd to me. Most of the BH expansion, and also all of the past expansions, did not strike me as particularly bad in this regard. Francois Villon, as Derek mentioned, never struck me as being a stereotype particularly. Nor have many other vampires. IMHO there has always been a shortage of racial diversity in general, which is itself perhaps a problem. But I do see WW as trying to correct this after the fact, so it's not such a big deal. It's a tough thing to do right I think, and if there is any racism present, it was unintentional and also very easy mistakes to make. And while this is a concern of mine, hence the thread, I don't think it's the end of the world or anything. And I must say that overall, the Black Hand expansion is phenomenal, and that includes the three vampires I mentioned. Cheers, WES

In message <bqdh6...@enews1.newsguy.com>, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> mumbled something about: >Change the subject line instead to "Concern with mild racism of Mexico City >by Night and Caine's Chosen" :) Absolutely not, and this is what I despise, DESPISE, about Political Correctness. This is a glaring misuse of the word "racism" and misuses such as this are THE root cause of more fights, arguments, and misunderstandings in the world about this subject. It is why I want to see the PC crowd shoved back in the miserable little sewer they came from; without their meddling, things would be SO much less offensive. From www.m-w.com, Main Entry: rac·ism 1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2: racial prejudice or discrimination Jesus Alcala wearing a big honkin' sombrero corresponds to neither of these definitions, but your incorrect use of the word brings a huge emotional charge into an issue where it ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT BELONG. And I am calling "Bullshit" on it. >Most of the BH expansion, and also all of the past expansions, did not >strike me as particularly bad in this regard. Francois Villon, as Derek >mentioned, never struck me as being a stereotype particularly. Nor have many THIS is the word you are looking for. Again from www.m-w.com, Main Entry: stereotype 1 : a plate cast from a printing surface 2 : something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment Definition #1 is meaningless in this discussion. Definition #2 would seem, at first glance, to support your misuse of the word "racism", as one of the three possibilities is that it may represent a prejudiced attitude. However, reading closer, we also find the possibility that a stereotype may just be an oversimplified opinion. Now, which do you think is more likely: that White Wolf has some irrational grudge against Mexicans, or that the writer and artist have chosen to deliberately oversimplify their depictions of Jesus Alcala in order to render a more descriptive picture of the character... or so that the character may appear as people would expect? This is why your use of the word "racism" grates so badly on me, and why I wish to see the whole PC movement thrown in the ditch and kicked until it stops moving. Careless snap judgements such as this have too much potential to cause undue controversy (such as this thread), where there really is nothing to be concerned about. And what we come back to, after all this rigmarole and shouting, is that Jesus Alcala is wearing a big dorky hat because the fictional character he's based on wears a big dorky hat, and THAT is because the job that said fictional character performs includes a big dorky hat as part of the costume. It couldn't make any MORE sense, really. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote > > I thought he was white, personally, judging from the color of his hair. > But take, for example, Beast: what would HE put in the 'race' checkbox? > Or would he just eat the pen? Heheh. Actually, Beast couldn't use the pen since it is equipment [LSJ ?]. I think he would just punch the pollster in the face. Really really hard. > SPEEDY GONZALEZ! > > Carter, the Unstoppable Sex Machine now has a partner in crime. Speedy > has slept with EEEEVERYBODY's seester! > > (If you have not seen classic Warner Brothers cartoons, this will make > no sense to you. Just move on.) Well, to be fair, I would say that a lot of those old cartoons were also racist. I'm not sure, but weren't there a few of the cartoons from WB that they no longer show on TV for this very reason? Off-topic I guess. > DEATH TO POLITICAL CORRECTNESS! WOOHOO! > > Honestly, I busted out openly laughing at our prerelease when I drew > Speedy in a pack. It's just damned funny. Politically incorrect? > Sure! Screw the PCers anyway; if they had their way we couldn't even > talk about vampires, because there's a disease that resembles vampirism > a great deal and making a game of it is disrespectful to those > sufferers. Bah. I've never been comfortable with the idea of "political correctness". I think when people criticize something based on its PC-ness that it delegitimizes valid concerns the person may have had. I agree that some people do take things way too far, and I have gotten in many a shouting match with annoying "PC type people" (mostly feminists for some reason). But the concern should be addressed on its own merits or flaws, rather than condemned as being too "liberal" or PC or whatever. But you have also tried to do this Derek, so I'm not really speaking just to you here. > I am in no danger of confusing him with any real Mexicans, because he is > a cartoon... much like Speedy Gonzalez. Perhaps Speedy is also rather offensive though? > >Wah Chun-Yen looks like he is living in Victorian London. A lot of > > Oddjob! Yeah, I thought of that too. He seems more victorian to me though. Scott mentioned he was in one of the books, so I'll have to see what the background of the character really is. Would be cool to make an Oddjob deck... Thrown Sewer Lids might seem like razor-bowler-hats if you squint hard. > >is a good thing I think. Adds some colour to the game... literally. But > >I humbly recommend a little bit of sensitivity on the part of the > >artists when doing so. If we get a French vampire in Gehenna who is > >wearing a beret and carrying a baguette, I'm outta here :) > > You mean like Francois Villon? Don't really see that with Francois. He seems more like a fashion victim than a stereotypical Frenchman. Typical Toreador really, no problem there. > I'm a Danish-Irish-American heterosexual, which makes me tall, broad, > redheaded, pale-skinned, and inclined to drink, brawl, and hit on women > excessively. > > ...come to think of it, that was probably obvious by now too. Yes, it was actually :) > "From time to time, the tree of liberty must > be watered with the blood of idiots." - unknown Thomas Jefferson said something similar: "From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." Many patriots are also idiots, in my experience *shrug*. Cheers, WES

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote > > >Change the subject line instead to "Concern with mild racism of Mexico City > >by Night and Caine's Chosen" :) > > Absolutely not, and this is what I despise, DESPISE, about Political > Correctness. This is a glaring misuse of the word "racism" and misuses > such as this are THE root cause of more fights, arguments, and > misunderstandings in the world about this subject. You should also look up the definition of "mild" while you are at it, Derek. And watch for smilies. Whatever this is, whether we call it racism or not, it is something that does concern me and I believe that it should be addressed. If I am the only one, then so be it. As I have said both in the original post and subsequent posts, it is certainly not a huge deal. If there is anything "incorrect" on the part of artists, writers, editors whatever, I think it is mostly harmless and entirely unintentional. But it is worthy of discussion IMHO. > It is why I want to > see the PC crowd shoved back in the miserable little sewer they came > from; without their meddling, things would be SO much less offensive. Don't hide your feelings, Derek. Tell us how you really feel :) > From www.m-w.com, > > Main Entry: rac·ism > 1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and > capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority > of a particular race > 2: racial prejudice or discrimination I suppose I'll concede this definition, though I do think the concept of racism is quite a bit more inclusive than just this. There are more subtle and innocuous forms of racism, and I believe this is one of them. The Nazis (discussion ended? oops :) used cartoony images of Jews for propaganda purposes. Was that not racism? I contend that it was, and I think that most people would agree with me. Of course, the images on the BH cards are not the Final Solution or Rwandan tribal death squads. Like I said in the original post, this is a very mild and mostly harmless form of racism (in my opinion). And I think that with this situation in particular, the images do need to be taken in context. I can respect that the vampires on the cards are based on vampires from the books etc but this is not obvious just by looking at the cards themselves. This does not mean that the original ideas from the books are not themselves skirting the edge of racism. I have not read the books so I don't feel qualified to comment on that. > Jesus Alcala wearing a big honkin' sombrero corresponds to neither of > these definitions, but your incorrect use of the word brings a huge > emotional charge into an issue where it ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT BELONG. I disagree that my use of the word is incorrect. And you are obviously infusing far more emotion into this issue than I am. I believe that the subject is worthy of discussion, that's all. I'm not sure there is much to argue for or against. Mostly this is based on my own personal impressions when I first looked at the cards a few days ago. Hard to argue with that. If most other people did not have the same impressions as me, and do not think that this is a problem, I can certainly respect that. > And I am calling "Bullshit" on it. Be my guest. I would not have posted what I did if I didn't want people to discuss it. I was mostly curious if I was the only one who had these concerns. > Now, which do you think is more likely: that White Wolf has some > irrational grudge against Mexicans, or that the writer and artist have > chosen to deliberately oversimplify their depictions of Jesus Alcala in > order to render a more descriptive picture of the character... or so > that the character may appear as people would expect? I doubt that anyone involved in the process would even consider themselves racist. Or even be considered racist by others in the grand scheme of things. There are certainly bigger fish to fry... I am however suggesting that the "deliberate oversimplification" you mention is itself a dangerous thing. Whether it is racist or not is debatable, using your MW definition. Personally, I think that it is racist, though very mildly so. But I don't write for dictionaries. > This is why your use of the word "racism" grates so badly on me, and why > I wish to see the whole PC movement thrown in the ditch and kicked until > it stops moving. Careless snap judgements such as this have too much > potential to cause undue controversy (such as this thread), where there > really is nothing to be concerned about. But I am concerned about it, Derek... hence the thread. I may be the only one with these concerns <shrug>. If so, then let the thread die, as these matters are wont to do. > And what we come back to, after all this rigmarole and shouting, is that > Jesus Alcala is wearing a big dorky hat because the fictional character > he's based on wears a big dorky hat, and THAT is because the job that > said fictional character performs includes a big dorky hat as part of > the costume. ...which was not obvious until LSJ posted information about the origin of the character. And would not be obvious to anyone simply glancing at the cards. Cheers, WES

In message <bqdil...@enews1.newsguy.com>, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> mumbled something about: >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote >> >> (If you have not seen classic Warner Brothers cartoons, this will make >> no sense to you. Just move on.) > >Well, to be fair, I would say that a lot of those old cartoons were also >racist. I'm not sure, but weren't there a few of the cartoons from WB that >they no longer show on TV for this very reason? Off-topic I guess. I still see the cartoons on the Cartoon Network every so often. I would find it far more likely that the cartoons are no longer shown on TV because the characters are dated, the animation quality is poor in comparison, and the subject matter of most is not something today's children would be remotely familiar with. >> Honestly, I busted out openly laughing at our prerelease when I drew >> Speedy in a pack. It's just damned funny. Politically incorrect? >> Sure! Screw the PCers anyway; if they had their way we couldn't even >> talk about vampires, because there's a disease that resembles vampirism >> a great deal and making a game of it is disrespectful to those >> sufferers. Bah. > >I've never been comfortable with the idea of "political correctness". I Me either, as the other response should make obvious. >think when people criticize something based on its PC-ness that it >delegitimizes valid concerns the person may have had. I agree that some On the contrary, I find that when people start basing arguments on political correctness, it camouflages frivolous worries or oversensitivity as valid concerns. >people do take things way too far, and I have gotten in many a shouting >match with annoying "PC type people" (mostly feminists for some reason). But Go figure. ;) >> I am in no danger of confusing him with any real Mexicans, because he is >> a cartoon... much like Speedy Gonzalez. > >Perhaps Speedy is also rather offensive though? A cartoon mouse in a sombrero is offensive? How does a mouse look Mexican if you don't make him stereotypically Mexican? Again, Speedy is an oversimplification for very good reasons; so people understand that he's supposed to be Mexican. >> >is a good thing I think. Adds some colour to the game... literally. But >> >I humbly recommend a little bit of sensitivity on the part of the >> >artists when doing so. If we get a French vampire in Gehenna who is >> >wearing a beret and carrying a baguette, I'm outta here :) >> >> You mean like Francois Villon? > >Don't really see that with Francois. He seems more like a fashion victim >than a stereotypical Frenchman. Typical Toreador really, no problem there. So Toreador stereotyping the French for fashion is OK, but White Wolf stereotyping the Mexicans for fashion isn't? ;) I don't get the difference, myself. Either all stereotypes are bad (which they aren't), or only the ones that are derogatory in some fashion. Berets aren't derogatory of the French any more than tooks are of Canadians. =) >Thomas Jefferson said something similar: > >"From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of >tyrants and patriots." Rats. Have to change the quote now. =/ (But next message. ;) -- Derek [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:16:19 GMT, "John P." <verg...@hotmail.com> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] ..and i heard that his source character in the rpg is a mariachi singer, or something, which may or may not be linked to his choice of attire. (i still have to see that movie with antonio banderas(?)....the one that had the sequel-ish thing ...desperado? maybe..i dunno..the origional was el mariachi or something...) salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3c0lsvg56pv1m2mmc...@4ax.com... > On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:16:19 GMT, "John P." <verg...@hotmail.com> > scrawled: > > > > >"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3fc9edae$0$19239$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net... > >> > >> "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net > wrote > >> > ..and i heard that his source character in the rpg is a mariachi > singer, or something, which may or may not be linked to his choice of > attire. (i still have to see that movie with antonio > banderas(?)....the one that had the sequel-ish thing ...desperado? > maybe..i dunno..the origional was el mariachi or something...) El Mariachi (93?) Desperado (1995) Once Upon a Time in Mexico (2003) -JTP

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote > > I still see the cartoons on the Cartoon Network every so often. I don't even watch television, so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here. Doesn't really matter I suppose. If there's any controversy over Speedy Gonzales (who I vaguely remember from when I was a kid) then I'm not exactly on top of it. > I would find it far more likely that the cartoons are no longer shown on > TV because the characters are dated, the animation quality is poor in > comparison, and the subject matter of most is not something today's > children would be remotely familiar with. Well, I'm not really sure about this. I had heard of some cartoons, Bugs Bunny I think, that were not shown any more because of blatantly racist content. But again, I can't really say for sure. Maybe someone else will pipe in and enlighten us. > >I've never been comfortable with the idea of "political correctness". I > > Me either, as the other response should make obvious. Well, I think we're talking two different things here. You are uncomfortable with people you see as representing PC. I am uncomfortable with the concept of PC itself. I don't think it's valid. It's just one of those words/ideas that stops a discussion right there and then, without any actual dialectic. It's like when some rabidly conservative idiot like Rush Limbaugh denounces someone or something for being liberal, as if being liberal was inherently a bad thing. And to be fair, I have seen lefty types like myself do the same thing, especially with regards to words like "racist", "misogynist" or what-have-you. These words are bandied around so much that their value as words is often lost altogether. I am not accusing you of any of this behaviour though, for what it's worth. > On the contrary, I find that when people start basing arguments on > political correctness, it camouflages frivolous worries or > oversensitivity as valid concerns. Perhaps. I did not bring up the PC word until you did however. It's usually not even part of my vocabulary. > >people do take things way too far, and I have gotten in many a shouting > >match with annoying "PC type people" (mostly feminists for some reason). But > > Go figure. ;) Obviously in danger of going waaaaay off-topic here, but I'll discuss it with you privately if you like. > >> I am in no danger of confusing him with any real Mexicans, because he is > >> a cartoon... much like Speedy Gonzalez. > > > >Perhaps Speedy is also rather offensive though? > > A cartoon mouse in a sombrero is offensive? I seem to recall some people being pissed about this, yeah. Let's go googling. Here are various POV: http://www.americasvoices.org/avarc2002/archives2002/LilikC/LilikC_043002.htm http://www.wnyc.org/onthemedia/transcripts/transcripts_041302_speedy.html http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/story2c040302.html Anyway, I guess there was some controversy at one point. Whatever. I don't really have an opinion about this. Just demonstrating that some people do. I'd rather just avoid television altogether. > >Don't really see that with Francois. He seems more like a fashion victim > >than a stereotypical Frenchman. Typical Toreador really, no problem there. > > So Toreador stereotyping the French for fashion is OK, but White Wolf > stereotyping the Mexicans for fashion isn't? ;) Bit of a strawman there, Derek :) 1) Francois is a Toreador. 2) Francois is a fashion victim. 3) Francois is French. The top two arguments are connected. Typical Toreadors are often fashion victims (wow, still vaguely on topic here heheh). The bottom two arguments are not connected, nor are the top and bottom. I think you know this though. Suffice to say, Jesus Alcala's fashion is not typical Mexican. Typical mariachi though I guess. > I don't get the difference, myself. Either all stereotypes are bad > (which they aren't), or only the ones that are derogatory in some > fashion. Berets aren't derogatory of the French any more than tooks are > of Canadians. =) You had to mention the toque, eh? Toques aren't really a fashion up here. It's not really aboot that. They're more of a survival tool. I don't think I could sleep in my igloo at night without a toque on. I think stereotypes are bad *period* myself. They don't have to be outrageously racist ("All Jews are thieves", "All Mexicans are stupid and lazy")... some can be mild and mostly innocuous ("All Chinese are good at math"). The latter are usually more ignorance than malevolence I think we can agree. There are shades of grey obviously. But I do think the latter example leads to the dark side... paved with good intentions though it may be. > >Thomas Jefferson said something similar: > > > >"From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of > >tyrants and patriots." > > Rats. Have to change the quote now. =/ (But next message. ;) Speaking of racists. *cough* Jefferson owned slaves *cough* :) Ok, no need to go there. Just having some fun with you now. Cheers, WES

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Derek Ray wrote: > >Perhaps Speedy is also rather offensive though? > > A cartoon mouse in a sombrero is offensive? > > How does a mouse look Mexican if you don't make him stereotypically > Mexican? Again, Speedy is an oversimplification for very good reasons; > so people understand that he's supposed to be Mexican. I don't think Speedy was so bad, but remember all his buddies? He was always getting cheese for his lazy, slow-talking, skinny pals. That's certainly a negative stereotype. Anyway, I'm kind of glad to know that there is a reason for Jesus to be in that particular get-up. The thought had crossed my mind that he looked fairly ridiculous and that there was probably a more dignified way to show he's Mexican. He's a mariachi? Fine. Maybe I'll pick up that Mexico City book. I kind of like knowing the back-story. In case I don't, anyone want to spoil Wah's story? Why the bowler? Matt Morgan

Wes wrote: > I guess that makes some sense, though it would be hard to get the backstory > just from the cards. I'm also not sure that this really addresses the > problem, but I can't really blame the artist for portraying the character as > he appears in the books. Well, ya know, apprently the character is a Mariachi, and he is wearing a Mariachi outfit. I don't think it is any more stereotypical than if a character was supposed to be an LA police officer and was wearing an LA police uniform. Or a pirate, and wearing a pirate outfit. > I didn't realize that either Jesus or Wah were vampires from the books. I > haven't read any of the books since... the original clan novels I think? I think all of (or most of) the White Wolf VTES vampires are cannon--i.e. they all come out of (to some extent) White Wolf VtM sources. As to Wah, he strikes me as looking most like an English buisnessman (ya know, the type that Monty Python dressed up as all the time) who are generally not depicted as asian. > No, the only one I would say is over-the-top is Jesus. Well, only if dressing as a Mariachi when one is a Mariachi is over the top. That is what Mariachi look like. [ quoted text not captured ]

Wes wrote: > ...which was not obvious until LSJ posted information about the origin of > the character. And would not be obvious to anyone simply glancing at the > cards. But it would be obvious to anyone glancing at the card the he was wearing a pretty standard mariachi outfit, and consequently, was dressed as a mariachi. Out of context (when I first looked at the card, I did not know the background of the character, but I did say "Cool--a vampiric Mariachi!"), that he is dressed as a mariachi is neither inherrently racist or falling back on a stereotype. It is simply being dressed as a mariachi. Which is something people dress as. Mostly people in Mexico. And I'm the biggest flaming lefto in the world. [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray wrote: > I still see the cartoons on the Cartoon Network every so often. Cartoon Network shows old school, arguably questionable cartoons at night in special blocks these days. > I would find it far more likely that the cartoons are no longer shown on > TV because the characters are dated, the animation quality is poor in > comparison, and the subject matter of most is not something today's > children would be remotely familiar with. Nah. Cartoon content is defenitely supressed due to questionable stereotypes and violence. You can still see, like, Speedy Gonzales cartoons, cartoons where Bugs and Daffy are shot in the head with shotguns, and WWII era cartoons where the Japanese are depicted as miniature yellow bucktoothed gnomes with spectacles, but generally only after hours (i.e. 10:00pm +) on the Cartoon Network, in special "look at these hysterical, but still probably inappropriate for little kids" blocks. [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray wrote: > So Toreador stereotyping the French for fashion is OK, but White Wolf > stereotyping the Mexicans for fashion isn't? ;) Just as a rampant, off topic aside, who is or is not ok to make fun of is always based on the conext of where the fun is being made. In this country, Mexicans have a history of being dicked around by the white folks--thus oppressed minority, and thus someone is likely to get upset when they are made fun of (in the name of trying to unoppress the oppressed). The French, on the other hand, have never really been subject to significant actual predjudice in this country (i.e. the French are hardly an oppressed minority), at least in recent memory, and thus it is ok to make fun of the French, as French bashing isn't really contributing to a greater evil, just sort of a low level nationalistic rivalry that doesn't really do anything other than get Americans made fun of for trying to order food in Paris. Well, at least till it became jingoistic and flag wavingish to make fun of the French. But that is another discussion all together :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

> > So please go back to beating off > You are welcome to disagree with me, Norm... though I don't think I am > really making many statements that need agreeing or disagreeing with. > These are simply observations about the new set that disturbed me and I > am curious if other players had a similar reaction. You apparently don't > care whether the images are appropriate or not. Great. > > But I don't think comments like "please go back to beating off" are > appropriate or necessary. Mutual friends of ours seem to respect you for > some reason, Norm, but whenever you have responded to myself and other > people on this newsgroup, you seem to prefer immature and incoherent ad > hominem attacks like this to intelligent discourse. If you're not up to > actual discussion, so be it. But if you are, by all means discuss what I > have posted. That's kind of why I posted it. FYI, the entire post is a joke. I was using the technique of alliteration in the extreme. Can you count how many times I used the word "off". The crowning touch was "beating off" in a certain maturity level equivalent to Beavis and Butthead. You were looking to get offended so I try to satisfy In all seriousness, I don't know where you are from Wes, but since you brought it up. The very use of the word "racism" is inflammatory in the extreme. The very use of it pretty much means the end of intelligent dialogue and the start of the name calling. It is like trying to get an intelligent conversation about "Nazis" when not talking about WWII German National Socialists. It is like juggling emotional nitroglycerine, BOOM! I see nothing in any of the art or cards that you mention that is prejudicial or offensive. The name "Jesus", pronounced "Hey-Zeus", is common in Mexico. I would think that you would be more offended by the name "Democritus" offending the Greeks or Italians. "Jesus" looks like anyone of 50 mariachis that have played at the restaurants I have visited in northern Mexico. The concept of a mariachi band is not offensive in any manner I have seen. Perhaps I don't know enough Asians to be offended by Wah Chun-Yuen. He is wearing a Bowler Hat and a 3-Piece Suit. How is that offensive? He looks like he is dress to impress. I think you need to get out more. I know plenty of people who dress in 3 piece suits and on occasion would wear a bowler cap if it were cold. Can you think of a more appropriate hat to go with a 3-piece suit? How does the beads on Blackhorse Tanner's picture in any way offend you? Please let me know how a simple piece of jewelry is racist. Wes, your initial post was ludicrous. So was my response. I thought you might have picked up on the hint. -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

In message <Pine.LNX.4.44.031130...@eris.io.com>, "Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@eris.io.com> mumbled something about: >On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Derek Ray wrote: > >> A cartoon mouse in a sombrero is offensive? >> >> How does a mouse look Mexican if you don't make him stereotypically >> Mexican? Again, Speedy is an oversimplification for very good reasons; >> so people understand that he's supposed to be Mexican. > >I don't think Speedy was so bad, but remember all his buddies? He was >always getting cheese for his lazy, slow-talking, skinny pals. That's >certainly a negative stereotype. Sure, perhaps his pals are -- but Speedy himself wasn't. And his lazy pals weren't a negative stereotype for their appearance (except the fat one) as much as they were for their BEHAVIOR -- something which is critical to distinguish here. >Maybe I'll pick up that Mexico City book. I kind of like knowing the >back-story. In case I don't, anyone want to spoil Wah's story? Why the >bowler? Receding hairline, he's embarrassed, and nobody's come up with Vampire Rogaine (made from the blood of 80's hair bands) yet? [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:28:15 -0600, "John P" <verg...@hotmail.com> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] there's a third one? cool! [ quoted text not captured ]

"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote > > FYI, the entire post is a joke. I was using the technique of alliteration > in the extreme. Yeah, I recognized that. It wasn't very funny and it was "off"-ensive. > You were looking to get offended Wrong. > In all seriousness, I don't know where you are from Wes, but since you > brought it up. The very use of the word "racism" is inflammatory in the > extreme. The very use of it pretty much means the end of intelligent > dialogue and the start of the name calling. It is like trying to get an > intelligent conversation about "Nazis" when not talking about WWII German > National Socialists. It is like juggling emotional nitroglycerine, BOOM! This is inane. It seems I was not the only one who was disturbed by the images on the cards. So why was it not appropriate to bring this up? Is the subject of possible racism somehow sacred and untouchable? Would this not be an appropriate forum for such a discussion? It does relate to the cards after all. It seems like you set off the bomb, Norm, not me. All I did was post something about my first reactions upon seeing the cards. You could have simply *not* responded. Instead you insulted me. And continue to insult me. > I see nothing in any of the art or cards that you mention that is > prejudicial or offensive. Great! The above sentence would have been an appropriate response. I would have respected that. > The name "Jesus", pronounced "Hey-Zeus", is common > in Mexico. I would think that you would be more offended by the name > "Democritus" offending the Greeks or Italians. What are you talking about? I realize that Jesus is a common hispanic name. When did I complain about his name? None of the names bother me. > "Jesus" looks like anyone of > 50 mariachis that have played at the restaurants I have visited in northern > Mexico. The concept of a mariachi band is not offensive in any manner I > have seen. As is probably obvious, I am not terribly familiar with the concept of a mariachi. I accept that this is what Jesus is supposed to be, but as mentioned *several times now* this was not obvious at the time. So Jesus is a mariachi... great. In that case, his outfit is appropriate. I still think that making a Mexican vampire into a mariachi is a bit weird, and yeah, maybe also a bit of a stereotype. It's probably more stupid than it is racist though. > Perhaps I don't know enough Asians to be offended by Wah Chun-Yuen. He is > wearing a Bowler Hat and a 3-Piece Suit. How is that offensive? He looks > like he is dress to impress. Try reading the rest of the thread and then get back to me if you still don't understand. > I think you need to get out more. Thanks. Another insult. > I know plenty of people who dress in 3 > piece suits and on occasion would wear a bowler cap if it were cold. Can > you think of a more appropriate hat to go with a 3-piece suit? One that doesn't seem stereotypical perhaps? Read the rest of the thread. I'd really rather find out what the hell that character is all about before continuing though. It could be an appropriate costume, who knows. I have no idea. Like Jesus and Tanner, it just seemed a little weird to me. > How does the beads on Blackhorse Tanner's picture in any way offend you? > Please let me know how a simple piece of jewelry is racist. ?? Re-read what I wrote please. > Wes, your initial post was ludicrous. So was my response. I thought you > might have picked up on the hint Yeah, fuck you too. Cheers, WES

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:hialsvcto3ulf0au1...@4ax.com... > In message <Pine.LNX.4.44.031130...@eris.io.com>, > "Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@eris.io.com> mumbled something about: > > >On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Derek Ray wrote: > > > >> A cartoon mouse in a sombrero is offensive? > >> > >> How does a mouse look Mexican if you don't make him stereotypically > >> Mexican? Again, Speedy is an oversimplification for very good reasons; > >> so people understand that he's supposed to be Mexican. > > > >I don't think Speedy was so bad, but remember all his buddies? He was > >always getting cheese for his lazy, slow-talking, skinny pals. That's > >certainly a negative stereotype. > > Sure, perhaps his pals are -- but Speedy himself wasn't. And his lazy > pals weren't a negative stereotype for their appearance (except the fat > one) as much as they were for their BEHAVIOR -- something which is > critical to distinguish here. > Ok, since no one else seems to know this: I heard that a certain few of the speedy gonzales cartoons were not allowed to be shown because they depicted speedy's pals as drunk lazy guys (i.e. the drunk mexican stereotype). I think disney decided this: and or court decisions. I have not checked up on this, but I thinkI heard on public radio a year or so in the past, so feel free to do so. Colin Riggs likes all the speedy cartoons, mostly because of a need for speed. and a love of cheese... mmm cheese

In message <bqe12...@enews1.newsguy.com>, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> mumbled something about: >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote >> >> I still see the cartoons on the Cartoon Network every so often. > >I don't even watch television, so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here. I don't really consider the Cartoon Network television. ;) >Doesn't really matter I suppose. If there's any controversy over Speedy >Gonzales (who I vaguely remember from when I was a kid) then I'm not exactly >on top of it. Neither am I, judging from Matt's/Peter's post. >Well, I'm not really sure about this. I had heard of some cartoons, Bugs >Bunny I think, that were not shown any more because of blatantly racist >content. But again, I can't really say for sure. Maybe someone else will >pipe in and enlighten us. Some of those cartoons DID have blatantly racist content -- especially the older ones. Most of them didn't, though. >And to be fair, I have seen lefty types like myself do the same thing, >especially with regards to words like "racist", "misogynist" or >what-have-you. These words are bandied around so much that their value as >words is often lost altogether. One of the reasons I tend to refer people to the dictionary when they use such words. >> On the contrary, I find that when people start basing arguments on >> political correctness, it camouflages frivolous worries or >> oversensitivity as valid concerns. > >Perhaps. I did not bring up the PC word until you did however. It's usually >not even part of my vocabulary. I wouldn't expect so. However, it's one thing to say something offensive, and have people get offended over it. It's another thing to say something which isn't inherently offensive, and have people go out of their way to find it so to advance their own personal agenda. I think too many people are offended these days, though. Goes along with the lawsuit-happy world we live in; people are touchy because people have told them that they SHOULD be touchy, not because they actually gave a damn themselves. >Obviously in danger of going waaaaay off-topic here, but I'll discuss it >with you privately if you like. No need, really; I was more just not-being-surprised about the fact that feminists tend to be in MANY shouting matches. =) While some feminists do have legitimate concerns, I find that frequently they're just looking for an excuse to be offended and use that excuse to advance their Original Agenda, whether or not it had any relation to the offense. >> A cartoon mouse in a sombrero is offensive? > >I seem to recall some people being pissed about this, yeah. Let's go >googling. Here are various POV: Without reading any of these articles, I'm going to point out that Speedy Gonzalez is still a cartoon mouse in a sombrero. Anyone who confuses Speedy with a native Mexican needs their head examined; anyone who considers Speedy to be representative of all Mexicans ALSO needs their head examined. People who complain about Speedy's friends have more ground to stand on, because their behavior IS a negative stereotype. However, there is also plenty ground for the other side of the fence, which reads like this: Parents who allow their child to watch cartoons should be sure the child is aware that cartoons are NOT REAL, and are just pictures; if the child ever evinces indications that he isn't grasping this, it should be corrected immediately. Parents who slap the kid down in front of the TV and don't even pay attention to what he's watching deserve the rude surprise they will get. >I'd rather just avoid television altogether. In general, I do. Except for hockey. Gotta have hockey. (Atlanta leading their division, eh? Who'da thunk it?) >> >Don't really see that with Francois. He seems more like a fashion victim >> >than a stereotypical Frenchman. Typical Toreador really, no problem >there. >> >> So Toreador stereotyping the French for fashion is OK, but White Wolf >> stereotyping the Mexicans for fashion isn't? ;) > >Bit of a strawman there, Derek :) I don't see where the strawman is. "everyone" knows the French wear berets, right? It's the first example (right before the baguette) that was held up in this discussion regarding the French. And Francois is a picture of a man in a beret with a visibly-French name. "everyone" also knows the Mexicans wear sombreros. It is one of the first things people think of when they bring the stereotype to mind. And Jesus Alcala is a picture of a man in a sombrero with a visibly-Mexican name. The difference here is that you imagine something, a story perhaps, behind the picture in Francois' photo ("typical Toreador"), and you don't imagine anything behind Jesus Alcala's picture, even though there's probably more concrete story behind Alcala's than Villon's. =) >I think you know this though. Suffice to say, Jesus Alcala's fashion is not >typical Mexican. Typical mariachi though I guess. Francois' fashion is not typical French, either. >You had to mention the toque, eh? (And I had to spell it improperly, too. =) >Toques aren't really a fashion up here. It's not really aboot that. They're >more of a survival tool. I don't think I could sleep in my igloo at night >without a toque on. But don't you all have bearskins covering the walls of that igloo? You can get a lot of insulation out of a grizzly's fur, eh. >I think stereotypes are bad *period* myself. They don't have to be >outrageously racist ("All Jews are thieves", "All Mexicans are stupid and >lazy")... some can be mild and mostly innocuous ("All Chinese are good at >math"). The latter are usually more ignorance than malevolence I think we >can agree. Yep. Ignorance should be addressed with education, not with sweeping-under-the-rug. The fact that stereotypes exist, and that they are frequently incorrect, is something people should be taught, not that they should pick up on their own. Explaining to a child that Slowpoke Rodriguez is supposed to be a caricature is certainly useful in many regards. >There are shades of grey obviously. But I do think the latter example leads >to the dark side... paved with good intentions though it may be. I cannot agree. If one wants to admire the light of a candle, one must bring it into dark places rather than observe it under the midday sun. >Speaking of racists. *cough* Jefferson owned slaves *cough* :) Yes, yes, he did. =) Again, wilful ignorance of the fact that Jefferson owned slaves is likely to leave one with a more inaccurate picture of history than being able to explain both that he did, and that times were different then and people didn't know any better. ;) -- Derek "From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of idiots." - unknown

In message <bqdp5...@enews1.newsguy.com>, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> mumbled something about: >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote >> >> Absolutely not, and this is what I despise, DESPISE, about Political >> Correctness. This is a glaring misuse of the word "racism" and misuses >> such as this are THE root cause of more fights, arguments, and >> misunderstandings in the world about this subject. > >You should also look up the definition of "mild" while you are at it, Derek. >And watch for smilies. If gluing a smiley face onto something made it automatically OK, then gluing the laugh track onto the Speedy Gonzalez cartoons should have been sufficient. The word itself precludes both "mild" and smilies. >Whatever this is, whether we call it racism or not, it is something that >does concern me and I believe that it should be addressed. If I am the only >one, then so be it. We should call it what it is. And it should only be addressed if there is something that needs addressing. But it can always be examined, because if you don't examine something how can you know if it needs addressing? >> It is why I want to >> see the PC crowd shoved back in the miserable little sewer they came >> from; without their meddling, things would be SO much less offensive. > >Don't hide your feelings, Derek. Tell us how you really feel :) I've been working on expressing things more. I tend to be very roundabout in my approach to issues, and my shrink hates it. >> From www.m-w.com, >> >> Main Entry: rac·ism >> 1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and >> capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority >> of a particular race >> 2: racial prejudice or discrimination > >I suppose I'll concede this definition, though I do think the concept of >racism is quite a bit more inclusive than just this. There are more subtle >and innocuous forms of racism, and I believe this is one of them. The fact that people believe there is any other definition of the word is just a HUGE problem in the world today. It opens the door to all sorts of abuses and nastiness which should never exist. >The Nazis (discussion ended? oops :) used cartoony images of Jews for >propaganda purposes. Was that not racism? I contend that it was, and I think >that most people would agree with me. Typically this IS where the discussion ends, yes -- any comparison of Goebbels' insidious propaganda to Speedy Gonzales is ridiculous on its face. However, I understand where you INTEND to go with this, so I'll let it slide. ;) >> Jesus Alcala wearing a big honkin' sombrero corresponds to neither of >> these definitions, but your incorrect use of the word brings a huge >> emotional charge into an issue where it ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT BELONG. > >I disagree that my use of the word is incorrect. By the definition of the word, however, your use is incorrect. >And you are obviously infusing far more emotion into this issue than I am. Using the word itself is generally sufficient, especially these days when everyone is oversensitive. >I am however suggesting that the "deliberate oversimplification" you mention >is itself a dangerous thing. Whether it is racist or not is debatable, using >your MW definition. Personally, I think that it is racist, though very >mildly so. But I don't write for dictionaries. The idea that one can rewrite the definition of a word to use as one chooses is far more of a dangerous thing than putting a funny hat on someone, in my opinion. It is a form of deliberate deception and untruth, designed to advance one's personal agenda at the expense of reality. This is why I went to all the trouble to point out that you are objecting to the STEREOTYPE, as opposed to anything else; while everyone knows that stereotypes exist, and most people would agree that generally they are a bad thing, it puts a far different connotation on the entire issue. >But I am concerned about it, Derek... hence the thread. Perhaps you shouldn't be. As the articles in your other post mentioned, many Latinos cheered Speedy Gonzalez on wholeheartedly, because he was always poking fun at the slow, stupid cat. So if the people who should be offended aren't... how can it possibly be our place to be offended FOR them? It almost smacks of racism, you know... that somehow WE know better than THEY what they should be offended by. Perhaps we would find that the mariachi is a time-honored profession, if we inquired... leading one to realize that being depicted as one may, indeed, be no insult at all, and any Mexican who saw the card would immediately assume that Jesus Alcala was a mariachi. (Peter certainly did, while the association didn't occur to me at all.) >> And what we come back to, after all this rigmarole and shouting, is that >> Jesus Alcala is wearing a big dorky hat because the fictional character >> he's based on wears a big dorky hat, and THAT is because the job that >> said fictional character performs includes a big dorky hat as part of >> the costume. > >...which was not obvious until LSJ posted information about the origin of >the character. And would not be obvious to anyone simply glancing at the >cards. Really? It was obvious to Peter. Perhaps it would be obvious to others, as well -- in fact, it might be most obvious to the people who would logically have a right to be offended by it. What's also interesting is that you didn't jump on my (intentional) reference to the sombrero as a "big dorky hat", even though that statement would be FAR more likely to offend than the picture itself, especially if I was foolish enough to utter it anywhere near an actual mariachi... [ quoted text not captured ]

Wes <gh...@nyetspammnsi.net> wrote: :> Jesús Alcalá /is/ a mariachi. That's his trade. He makes a living (even :> in unlife) at it. Dressing the part is necessary. See Mexico City by : Night. : I guess that makes some sense, though it would be hard to get the backstory : just from the cards. I'm also not sure that this really addresses the : problem, but I can't really blame the artist for portraying the character as : he appears in the books. Jesus: Whoah.. What happened? Mystery man: I just made you a Creature of Darkness, eh Vampire! Jesus: Nice, man.. I feel so undead, so groovy, ladies will dig this.. MM: There *is* one problem, though. Jesus: What? Mmm.. Let me guess! Must be some secrecy stuff.. "I tell you of my kind and you must die" kind of thing, rite? MM: Well, that too, but the real issue is your sombero. Jesus: Wha? My hat? MM: And the rest of those clothes, they must go. Jesus: Whaddya mean "they must go", I've dressed like this for the better prt of my life! MM: No can do. Not only they smell, but they are also not Politically Correct. Jesus: Uhh.. What? MM: You heard me. We Creatures of the Night must be ever vigilant regarding the way people see us. And the Political Correctness. Jesus: Eh.. Huh? MM: I mean, think about me? "There's the guy who goes around Siring mariachies. Picks on a racial and professional minority!" What kind of message is that like, I ask you. Yup, the sombero must go. Jesus: But.. I like my sombero.. MM: Hush! Remember Inquisition? Well of course you don't.. Jesus: What does that have to do with my somb.. MM: ..I remember one guy who though Embracing a tirolian in green pants and a funny hat was a nice idea.. the poor mortal was a clockmaker, too.. Jesus: And.. the church got them, rite? MM: Well, not exactly, it was the tirolian pro-tourism bureau. Image thing. Man those guys used to be tight back then. Jesus: But.. MM: So the sombero will go. Or I'll have human rights activists and the Black Hand investigation upon me in a blink. We may spit on Masquarade, but these kinds of things have the way of being found out.. Jesus: Jesus! You guys really are wound up.. MM: And after the clothes we change your name. No mexican should be ever given a name that's been used in movie industry to mark an ethnic group. Don't you just feel the weigh of oppression on you shoulders? Jesus: Well.. not really.. but I guess.. MM: Right! Once we've bought you some new clothes we can go and have a look at this undead business..

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote > > >And to be fair, I have seen lefty types like myself do the same thing, > >especially with regards to words like "racist", "misogynist" or > >what-have-you. These words are bandied around so much that their value as > >words is often lost altogether. > > One of the reasons I tend to refer people to the dictionary when they > use such words. The meanings still stand, but over-use dillutes their impact. Who the hell even knows what racism really means any more. I should mention a little story here. I was having a discussion with a friend via email about what constituted "terrorism". The definition we agreed to use on Dictionary.com actually *changed* on that site over the course of the few weeks we were talking about it. Very strange. Same thing happened with the definition they had for "torture" a few weeks later. So, although it is useful to all be on the same page w.r.t. what words mean, I am not so sure that relying on dictionaries, or at least that one, is always wise. It is quite possible for a dictionary to have an agenda. It is after all written by humans. But this is yet another offshoot that could lead to another off-topic baby thread. Anyway, on to the current discussion... > I wouldn't expect so. However, it's one thing to say something > offensive, and have people get offended over it. It's another thing to > say something which isn't inherently offensive, and have people go out > of their way to find it so to advance their own personal agenda. Yeah, intent and context are important. I am far less likely to be offended by someone who inadvertently but seriously insults me (happens a lot) than I am by someone who *tries* to insult me but not very adroitly :) > I think too many people are offended these days, though. Goes along > with the lawsuit-happy world we live in; people are touchy because > people have told them that they SHOULD be touchy, not because they > actually gave a damn themselves. Well, to be fair, I was never actually offended by the cards myself. I was concerned by what I saw as implied racism, stereotyping, whatever you want to call it. I was always quite calm about it and the only time I really took any offense to anything was when Norm posted his insulting drivel. I expected discussion. I wanted discussion. But at no time was I really all that worked up about it all. I still contend that it was worthy of discussion, and am glad I brought it up. I do think that Norm's point about the subject being very emotional is accurate as it's obvious that this thread has caused more offense than the cards in question might cause. In any case, I'm probably coming across as far more frothing at the mouth PC than I really am. Though I do froth occasionally as my friends will attest. Ah well, my intentions were noble. Road to Hell, here I come. > While some feminists > do have legitimate concerns, I find that frequently they're just looking > for an excuse to be offended and use that excuse to advance their > Original Agenda, whether or not it had any relation to the offense. Yeah. I actually have no problems at all with feminism. I just have a problem with some feminists and their methods. But feminism itself I think is perfectly fine. > Parents who slap the kid down in front of the TV and don't even pay > attention to what he's watching deserve the rude surprise they will get. Agreed. Of course, my folks screwed me up much worse by not exposing me to *enough* television as a kid heheh. Now most popular culture references are lost on me. More frustrating than you would think. > >I'd rather just avoid television altogether. > > In general, I do. Except for hockey. Gotta have hockey. > > (Atlanta leading their division, eh? Who'da thunk it?) Admit it, you're only asking me this because I am Canadian right? You're stereotyping me! :) Actually, to tell the truth I know next to nothing about hockey... or sports in general. > >I think you know this though. Suffice to say, Jesus Alcala's fashion is not > >typical Mexican. Typical mariachi though I guess. > > Francois' fashion is not typical French, either. No, but there's nothing particularly French about it either... or is there? I don't even know. > But don't you all have bearskins covering the walls of that igloo? You > can get a lot of insulation out of a grizzly's fur, eh. What?!?! Kill my pet grizzly bear? What are you? Some kind of insensitive animal killer now? Grizzlies have rights too. It says so right here in my PC handbook. > Yep. Ignorance should be addressed with education, not with > sweeping-under-the-rug. The fact that stereotypes exist, and that they > are frequently incorrect, is something people should be taught, not that > they should pick up on their own. Explaining to a child that Slowpoke > Rodriguez is supposed to be a caricature is certainly useful in many > regards. Agreed. > >There are shades of grey obviously. But I do think the latter example leads > >to the dark side... paved with good intentions though it may be. > > I cannot agree. If one wants to admire the light of a candle, one must > bring it into dark places rather than observe it under the midday sun. Interesting metaphor. As long as the ignorance goes away somehow, I'd consider it a success. How you get there is beside the point. But I don't think we are disagreeing here. Cheers, WES

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote > > If gluing a smiley face onto something made it automatically OK, then > gluing the laugh track onto the Speedy Gonzalez cartoons should have > been sufficient. Heh, very good point. > We should call it what it is. And it should only be addressed if there > is something that needs addressing. But it can always be examined, > because if you don't examine something how can you know if it needs > addressing? Exactly why I brought it up in the first place. I think these things do need to be examined. It should not be as painful as this has been though... > >I suppose I'll concede this definition, though I do think the concept of > >racism is quite a bit more inclusive than just this. There are more subtle > >and innocuous forms of racism, and I believe this is one of them. > > The fact that people believe there is any other definition of the word > is just a HUGE problem in the world today. It opens the door to all > sorts of abuses and nastiness which should never exist. I agree with you for the most part. See my other post re changing definitions. And I sort of see definitions themselves as being somewhat mutable. Just as the language itself is ultimately mutable also. People define things, not dictionaries. If people as a whole decide over time that a word means something else, who are we to say that they are wrong? It would be nice though if we were all on the same page sometimes. In the past week I have seen three different definitions of "capitalism", and none seem to agree with any other. A solid frame of reference would be nice. > >And you are obviously infusing far more emotion into this issue than I am. > > Using the word itself is generally sufficient, especially these days > when everyone is oversensitive. Regardless of that, which I don't disagree with, the issue should be open to discussion. I don't like the idea of these sacred topics that nobody can touch because they are too emotionally charged. Hell, the reason they are so charged is because people are afraid to talk about them. Anyways... I'm glad this was discussed. > The idea that one can rewrite the definition of a word to use as one > chooses is far more of a dangerous thing than putting a funny hat on > someone, in my opinion. I don't know if it's just me being inarticulate or what, but I seem to be agreeing with you more than you would probably think. See the other posts and above in this one for a reiteration of what I mean regarding defintions. I don't think that *I* have the power to rewrite a definition obviously. That's Mr. Webster's job heheh. > >But I am concerned about it, Derek... hence the thread. > > Perhaps you shouldn't be. As the articles in your other post mentioned, > many Latinos cheered Speedy Gonzalez on wholeheartedly, because he was > always poking fun at the slow, stupid cat. The fact that we have yet to hear from any Mexican/hispanic players on the issue of Jesus Alcala is surely a sign of something. There are plenty of players in Mexico, and surely some are on this newsgroup. Maybe some are even dressed as mariachis right now :) > So if the people who should be offended aren't... how can it possibly be > our place to be offended FOR them? It almost smacks of racism, you > know... that somehow WE know better than THEY what they should be > offended by. I don't think I know better though, but I see what you are saying. It's a dangerous direction to go down. I have seen plenty of this type of thing in activist circles and it can get really &^%$ing ugly. A variation on "white man's burden" perhaps. > Perhaps we would find that the mariachi is a time-honored profession, if > we inquired... leading one to realize that being depicted as one may, > indeed, be no insult at all, and any Mexican who saw the card would > immediately assume that Jesus Alcala was a mariachi. Could very well be. I have no idea. I was never suggesting that a "mariachi" was a bad thing. I barely knew what it was until this thread. > >...which was not obvious until LSJ posted information about the origin of > >the character. And would not be obvious to anyone simply glancing at the > >cards. > > Really? It was obvious to Peter. Perhaps it would be obvious to > others, as well -- in fact, it might be most obvious to the people who > would logically have a right to be offended by it. It was not obvious to me is what I meant. To me, Jesus Alcala looked like he was supposed to be an exaggerated Mexican. It seems that I was not the only one that thought this. I just had the singular honour of being the one to bring it up for discussion :) > What's also interesting is that you didn't jump on my (intentional) > reference to the sombrero as a "big dorky hat", even though that > statement would be FAR more likely to offend than the picture itself, > especially if I was foolish enough to utter it anywhere near an actual > mariachi... I'm not trying to jump on anything or anyone though. It may seem like I am pulling a "holier than thou" because of the sensitive subject matter. But I'm really just as capable as anyone of being inadvertently racist or whatever. I try to think about these things though, and that's a good thing I think. But I'm far from perfect in this regard. <shrug> Cheers, WES

But > I humbly recommend a little bit of sensitivity on the part of the > artists when doing so. If we get a French vampire in Gehenna who is > wearing a beret and carrying a baguette, I'm outta here :) If we get a Brazilian vampire with a soccer ball over the head and a "samba school" behind him, I'll laugh my ass off :) Seriously, I understand your concerns - I've noticed the obviously stereotypical mexican mariachi in Jesus - but I think it's nothing to be worried about. For a game, VTES/Vampire the RPG is much more concerned with these matters than anything else, specially in the 3rd/Revised Edition of the RPG. They've got plenty of room to play along a little bit with funny stereotypes than most games. Take a look at El Diablo Verde in Nights of Prophecy: an obvious joke with the pro wrestling business, more than just a stereotypical view on Mexicans. Personally, I won't be offended by any means they'd portrait a brazilian, as long as I think it's fitting at least to a small portion of our culture - as the "beret and baguette" thing relates to the old romantic view of artists in Paris. Every stereotype has its basis, and as long as nobody abuses that stereotype to the extreme - like an entire expansion on France using all stereotypes available about the country - it's normal to see something a little cheesy once in a while. I'm certain that many brazilians often see americans with a certain stereotypical point of view, so... Just to add a curious story: in 2001 we had a big rock festival in Rio de Janeiro, the 3rd edition of Rock in Rio. The Queens of the Stone Age were to play at the 'heavy metal' night, and I was there to see them. When it was their turn to begin the show, the bass player (forgot his name...) ran up the stage totally naked. Some songs after, he put his pants on again, and at the end there was some visible agitation at the backstage. I was hanging around with a group of friends who happened to be mostly composed of journalists, and they quickly discovered that the guy was arrested for public nudity. Later that night we had a chance to see a recorded interview with him on the press place, and he argued about the arrest using the following logic: "I've always seen naked girls on brazilian Carnival on TV, so I thought doing the same was no problem". At first we laughed a lot - his stereotypical 'dumb' view on Brazilians got him an arrest. Until we realised the core truth of the matter, the hypocrisy in our own laws and culture. First, we enforce appropriate dressing in law but allow all kinds of exposure on TV films and during Carnival. Second, all tourist propaganda we got is devoted to promote the most hedonistic view of the country, but we don't want tourists to get naked on the beach or on streetcorners while they catch on local hookers. Sexual tourism began to be confronted seriously by law less than a decade ago. Third, the guy is prone to do this every show he does around the world. Maybe he was well aware of the chance of arresting, but did it all the same just to see what happens. And in this act he helped us to think a little bit about our own condition. The lesson on stereotypes is clear: none of them comes from complete misunderstanding. This misunderstanding always begins with some measure of truth. What matters is what you do with the stereotype, and you can't expect that everyone, always will be able to pass through that misunderstanding if one had not the chance to get in contact with the *full* truth (in the bass players' case, actually coming to Brazil *during* Carnival would do this, per example; he'd see that there's place and time for public nudity here). The best all we can do is to enlighten the ignorants, and think about how things lead to the stereotype. Nothing else is worth the effort, getting upset or disturbed included. cheers!

> >Don't really see that with Francois. He seems more like a fashion victim > >than a stereotypical Frenchman. Typical Toreador really, no problem there. > > So Toreador stereotyping the French for fashion is OK, but White Wolf > stereotyping the Mexicans for fashion isn't? ;) François dresses like europeans did centuries ago. He is an Elder Toreador so I see nothing wrong with that. > I don't get the difference, myself. Either all stereotypes are bad > (which they aren't), or only the ones that are derogatory in some > fashion. Berets aren't derogatory of the French any more than tooks are > of Canadians. =) Have you ever been here, Derek ? NO ONE wears berets anymore. Except originals that would as well dress with a casquette, a texan hat or a crown of feathers ; and some very old people who mostly are Basque (they aren't really french, they claim their independence, and as a matter of facts they may very well be the only non-indo-european people in Europe !!). Considering the frenchmen on a fashion gone since around the last WW would be like thinking that all Germans or Austrians wear Hitler-like mustache : it would be offending and out-of-place. That being said, the VTES Prince of Texas is as stereotyped as Jesus and the rest. Although I think Texans are proud of wearing their hats, that is still nothing but a caricature. But then, it's only a game, and the pictures need to talk quickly to us, to tell us in a few strokes who is this character. Still, I did react to some of those guys, especially Banjoko : it sounds like a slave's name. But I guess that must fit the background of a Lasombra taken from his homeland by spanish... Does racism, like beauty, lie in the eye of the beholder ? Sure. But some subjects are obviously harder to talk about then others. There have been some WW stories about how this clan or that one influenced the nazis ; I don't find this offending, because we know the evil that were the nazis, and in the WOD what has been done must have been a manipulations by vampires. Ignoring that part of history would be the worst case of PC I would have seen ; nearly as bad as negationism. The only thing I really felt was offending in the whole game was the caricature of the names of the Clans : - Toreador is a spanish caricature for poseurs - Ventrue implies fat french bourgeois - Assamites = assassins, Giovanni = maffiosi, Setites = heaten, Ravnos = thieves : the Independents are certainly the worst case of racial stereotypes in the game. - Malkavians could be thought to have an Armenian consonnance, but this must be a coincidence, as I see no possible allusion (although I kid about it with my Armenian vampire friends) - Brujahs : I don't understand the name (witch in spanish) but see no offense in that. Yours, Orpheus, not PC, just cautious.

> The French, on the other hand, have never really been subject to significant > actual predjudice in this country Which country is that, Peter ? (i.e. the French are hardly an oppressed > minority), at least in recent memory, and thus it is ok to make fun of the > French, as French bashing isn't really contributing to a greater evil, just > sort of a low level nationalistic rivalry that doesn't really do anything > other than get Americans made fun of for trying to order food in Paris. LOL. > Well, at least till it became jingoistic and flag wavingish to make fun of > the French. But that is another discussion all together :-) Nationalism and flag waving is never a good thing, and has been the main reason of war along with religious zealotism since the dawn of times... > "The gun is good! The penis is bad!" > -Zardoz Depends where and on whom you put each one... Orpheus

> As is probably obvious, I am not terribly familiar with the concept of a > mariachi. I accept that this is what Jesus is supposed to be, but as > mentioned *several times now* this was not obvious at the time. So Jesus is > a mariachi... great. In that case, his outfit is appropriate. I still think > that making a Mexican vampire into a mariachi is a bit weird, and yeah, > maybe also a bit of a stereotype. It's probably more stupid than it is > racist though. Though I would not use the word "stupid", I'd agree with this, Wes. It disturbs me more as lack of ideas than as racism or stereotypical view on any country and its people. But again, playing a bit with some funny stereotypes won't hurt. And we're talking about the art only. Who knows if the characters' background is not very elaborated on the RPG? In the Brujah clanbook there's a template based on the lead character from Fight Club. The author grabbed many details from the plane scene where the guy "meets" Tyler Durden, and even the art looked like Edward Norton. But the template was made to offer a veritable anarch leader who does not realise that everything he does is to get thrilled and out of 'the system boredom', not because he truly believes in anarchy, and it was fitting to relate to Fight Club. At the end we have a hint that the character will do a very well-adjusted Camarilla elder in the future... cheers!

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c4flsvc877nok7ppo...@4ax.com>... > In message <bqe12...@enews1.newsguy.com>, > "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> mumbled something about: > >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote > >I'd rather just avoid television altogether. > > In general, I do. Except for hockey. Gotta have hockey. Speaking of hockey, why isn't Ezekiel, Lord of Montreal garbed like a stereotypical Canuck? He needs a hockey stick, 6-pack and dozen donuts, eh? Somebody horked his toque, though the red-hooded sweatshirt is a beauty. Jeff, who hasn't bothered reading this thread except for hockey related stuff

So, let me get this straight, Wes: You play a game based on evil secret societies of serial rapists, murderers, and demon worshippers... and you're concerned about the Political Correctness of what type of hat they're wearing?

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kkplsvc0fv520uv6a...@4ax.com>... > In message <bqdp5...@enews1.newsguy.com>, > "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> mumbled something about: > >...which was not obvious until LSJ posted information about the origin of > >the character. And would not be obvious to anyone simply glancing at the > >cards. > > Really? It was obvious to Peter. Perhaps it would be obvious to > others, as well -- in fact, it might be most obvious to the people who > would logically have a right to be offended by it. The first 3 things that went through my head (withing 1 second, probably) when I saw the picture for the first time: 1. Damn he's cool! 2. Dusk Till Dawn! 3. Silly Tobias. Not every mariachi player is automatically related to Dusk Till Dawn... although this one might be. It's very clear to me that he's mariachi, although it might be a goth-punky kinda mariachi. Then again, I've been to Mexico. Then again, I knew about Mariachi from living in the States for some years before I ever went to Mexico. I reckon any Mexican would instantly recognize it. Then again, they might be the one to REALLY know if the details on the costume are correct, for instance. The discussion's no biggy to me, really. There's plenty of stereotypes in V:tES - in fact, there's plenty of stereotypes in RPG(-related)s in general. Stereotypes don't bother me. -- Tobias Deventer

"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message news:<bqefi...@enews1.newsguy.com>... > "XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote > > > > FYI, the entire post is a joke. I was using the technique of alliteration > > in the extreme. > > Yeah, I recognized that. It wasn't very funny and it was "off"-ensive. Yep, that's right. It was designed that way to give you a little perspective on how a statement directed at a person may offend and even intentionally so, but how a portrait offends, I will never know. > > You were looking to get offended > > Wrong. On the contrary, pretty much the use of the word "racism" implies that one party is offended by another. Is there any other use for the word? > > In all seriousness, I don't know where you are from Wes, but since you > > brought it up. The very use of the word "racism" is inflammatory in the > > extreme. The very use of it pretty much means the end of intelligent > > dialogue and the start of the name calling. It is like trying to get an > > intelligent conversation about "Nazis" when not talking about WWII German > > National Socialists. It is like juggling emotional nitroglycerine, BOOM! > > This is inane. The entire thread is inane flamebait. You asked for this. > It seems I was not the only one who was disturbed by the images on the > cards. So why was it not appropriate to bring this up? Again, How does a portrait seem racist to you? Is the subject of > possible racism somehow sacred and untouchable? No is not, but you have entirely misconstrued the meaning of racism and are simply being ridiculous. Would this not be an > appropriate forum for such a discussion? No it is not the appropriate forum. This is a online forum discussing a card game. In this forum, neither race, nor sex, nor creed exists so therefore racism in entirely inappropriate. If you want to discuss the game then fine, otherwise you should reserve the comments for a more appropriate place. It does relate to the cards after > all. Not in a meaningful way other than you got your feathers in a ruffle. > It seems like you set off the bomb, Norm, not me. All I did was post > something about my first reactions upon seeing the cards. You could have > simply *not* responded. Instead you insulted me. And continue to insult me. I see no bomb other than the word racism. In which way have I insulted you in the responsorial post? Please, enlighten me. I apparently do not know the power of my own words. > > I see nothing in any of the art or cards that you mention that is > > prejudicial or offensive. > > Great! The above sentence would have been an appropriate response. I would > have respected that. > > The name "Jesus", pronounced "Hey-Zeus", is common > > in Mexico. I would think that you would be more offended by the name > > "Democritus" offending the Greeks or Italians. > > What are you talking about? I realize that Jesus is a common hispanic name. > When did I complain about his name? None of the names bother me. > > > "Jesus" looks like anyone of > > 50 mariachis that have played at the restaurants I have visited in > northern > > Mexico. The concept of a mariachi band is not offensive in any manner I > > have seen. > > As is probably obvious, I am not terribly familiar with the concept of a > mariachi. I accept that this is what Jesus is supposed to be, but as > mentioned *several times now* this was not obvious at the time. So Jesus is > a mariachi... great. In that case, his outfit is appropriate. I still think > that making a Mexican vampire into a mariachi is a bit weird, and yeah, > maybe also a bit of a stereotype. It's probably more stupid than it is > racist though. It is neither stupid nor racist. It is a portrait and should be taken as such. Comments such as "stupid" or "racist" show subjective biases that are exibited by the person commenting not by the picture itself. > > Perhaps I don't know enough Asians to be offended by Wah Chun-Yuen. He is > > wearing a Bowler Hat and a 3-Piece Suit. How is that offensive? He looks > > like he is dress to impress. > > Try reading the rest of the thread and then get back to me if you still > don't understand. I Have read some of the thread but if there are parts that you would like to specifically address with me then please quote them. > > I think you need to get out more. > > Thanks. Another insult. Not really, I think that if you think that an Asian wearing a bowler hat, a Mexcan wearing a pancho and a sombrero, or a man wearing a necklace is racist, then you need to get out more. To equat a bowler had, a sombrero, or a necklace with racism is simply not going to fly. I am going to let you know. > > I know plenty of people who dress in 3 > > piece suits and on occasion would wear a bowler cap if it were cold. Can > > you think of a more appropriate hat to go with a 3-piece suit? > > One that doesn't seem stereotypical perhaps? Read the rest of the thread. I don't know where you get your stereotype of a Asian man wearing a bowler cap. Please enlighten me as to its meaning and list references. > I'd really rather find out what the hell that character is all about before > continuing though. It could be an appropriate costume, who knows. I have no > idea. Like Jesus and Tanner, it just seemed a little weird to me. Weird is not the same as racism, but FYI those portraits are not weird. They are quite normal in the appropriate social setting. The fact that you are offended by them says more about the person being offended than the actual portrait itself. > > How does the beads on Blackhorse Tanner's picture in any way offend you? > > Please let me know how a simple piece of jewelry is racist. > > ?? > > Re-read what I wrote please. > > > Wes, your initial post was ludicrous. So was my response. I thought you > > might have picked up on the hint > > Yeah, fuck you too. I am glad you are not hiding from your feelings. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> escribió en el mensaje news:BBEFAA07.1229A%pd...@lightlink.com... > legbiter wrote: > > > However, why does the guy in the foreground of Crusade: Barcelona have > > a kilt? > > I was under the impression that it was a catholic school girl. They have > those in Barcelona, right? > ...And probably in any other city of 100.000+ people all around europe... Must say that the image on the crusade disappointed almost all players here. As did the Powerbase:madrid when it came out. We still want to know what building is that supposed to be... Also, spaniards complain a bit about the names of spanish vamps. Some of them are far far away from real names, extremely composed for what -our- names are used to. Jesús Alcalá is quite normal, though. But names like Marino Reymundo Vázquez aren't (in my whole life, have only met one person whose name is marino, an engineer who is currently living in chicago). The same as Ana Rita. Guess this is more due to the influence of southamerican tv-stories, which have plenty of compound names. Perhaps this is due of the family names in spanish traditions. We all use both surnames, form our father and our mother, and that might grant some confusion to the authors. > > Peter D Bakija > pd...@lightlink.com > http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 > > "The gun is good! The penis is bad!" > -Zardoz > Smiling Tom

> Speaking of hockey, why isn't Ezekiel, Lord of Montreal garbed like a > stereotypical Canuck? He needs a hockey stick, 6-pack and dozen > donuts, eh? Somebody horked his toque, though the red-hooded > sweatshirt is a beauty. When I first saw Ezekiel thought "Wow, the star of a teenage movie!"

Smiling Tom wrote: > Jesús Alcalá is quite normal, though. And by some strange coincidence this is also a name that's very familiar to us Swedes, as he is a lawyer who got caught embezzling a lot of money a few years back. Ironically enough (considering the topic of this thread), he was very committed to human rights and the fight against racism. Cheers, -- Fredrik

"Stone" <mc_judg...@yahoo.fr> wrote in message news:<3fc99b47$0$2781$626a...@news.free.fr>... > Wes <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> a écrit dans le message : > bqbnd...@enews1.newsguy.com... > >If we get a French vampire in Gehenna who is > > wearing a beret and carrying a baguette, I'm outta here :) > > lol! and give him the head of Kamel or Stephane! yes, please do! it would be > nice for an "unglued" expansion ;-) > Stone It would be very offending to my rights. As Prince of Paris (note the emphasis), i vote against. Kamel SENNI. PS : you could find some nice pictures of stephane at vekn.de, by the way. Just don't tell to anyone I give you the info. PPS :LOL PPPS : Stone, you have a lot of work, don't you ???? LOL.

"Orpheus" <orph...@NOSPAMfree.fr> wrote in message news:<3fc9ced0$0$9309$626a...@news.free.fr>... > > > >If we get a French vampire in Gehenna who is > > > > wearing a beret and carrying a baguette, I'm outta here :) > > > > > > lol! and give him the head of Kamel or Stephane! yes, please do! it > would > be > > > nice for an "unglued" expansion ;-) > > > Stone > > > > And please add the flavor text : "Ah, ce sont les sales Français qui pues > et > > qui pisses aux cathédrales" > > :-))))) > > ROTFL !! > > > DISCLAIMER : For all french speaking persons who might be offended by the > > flavor text : this is a long time joke carried on by me and some of the > > players in Paris. > > Just in case. :-) > > They pissed on a cathedral and I wasn't there ?!?! :( > > Orpheus It's an urban legend. Just the same things like the stories about true brujah and so on. Don't believe it. The photos ARE fakes. All is under control. You are NOT a vampire. KS.

Orpheus wrote: > Which country is that, Peter ? Doh. Clear slip up in my madness. In the USA. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "The gun is good! The penis is bad!" -Zardoz

In message <3fcb3404$0$19036$626a...@news.free.fr>, "Orpheus" <orph...@NOSPAMfree.fr> mumbled something about: >François dresses like europeans did centuries ago. He is an Elder Toreador >so I see nothing wrong with that. We shall remember that you said this. >> I don't get the difference, myself. Either all stereotypes are bad >> (which they aren't), or only the ones that are derogatory in some >> fashion. Berets aren't derogatory of the French any more than tooks are >> of Canadians. =) > >Have you ever been here, Derek ? NO ONE wears berets anymore. Except But wait! If nobody wears berets anymore, why is it OK for Francois to wear one? Surely he could not blend in with today's society if he did... which means that Francois really IS a stereotype! He is just one that you were not offended by, because you have imagined a story behind his picture that suits your sensibilities. That is not a bad thing at all, to not be offended, mind you. Fewer people should be offended. >originals that would as well dress with a casquette, a texan hat or a crown >of feathers ; and some very old people who mostly are Basque (they aren't >really french, they claim their independence, and as a matter of facts they >may very well be the only non-indo-european people in Europe !!). So -some- people wear berets, but only the unfashionable. OK. Well, then Francois is one of those very old people who just happens to not be Basque. That is fine and good, and so he wears a beret. >Considering the frenchmen on a fashion gone since around the last WW would >be like thinking that all Germans or Austrians wear Hitler-like mustache : >it would be offending and out-of-place. I agree absolutely. However, it is still one of the first mental images which come to mind when the French are mentioned, largely because the French are no longer distinguishable by their appearance or apparel. For many years, different countries DID have different fashions, surely where the stereotypes all originated in the first place... and so it is no surprise that they have lingered. However, it is also no disrespect, as otherwise how can one look at a picture and say "That one, he is French!" Perhaps if he wears a turtleneck... ;) >That being said, the VTES Prince of Texas is as stereotyped as Jesus and the >rest. Although I think Texans are proud of wearing their hats, that is still >nothing but a caricature. Well... yes and no. While Texans would surely be offended to hear someone characterize all Texans as cowboy-hat-wearin' oil barons, an awful lot of Texans DO wear the cowboy hat, even today. It is a stereotype which originated, as many do, in the reality of the time when it was popular. Fashion tends to be memorable. Far fewer Texans wear cowboy hats now than before. However, even were I a Texan, I would not be offended that the Prince of Dallas has him a ten-gallon on -- it's the best way to draw a picture in the viewer's mind. >But then, it's only a game, and the pictures need to talk quickly to us, to >tell us in a few strokes who is this character. Still, I did react to some >of those guys, especially Banjoko : it sounds like a slave's name. But I >guess that must fit the background of a Lasombra taken from his homeland by >spanish... Wouldn't it, though? >There have been some WW stories about how this clan or that one influenced >the nazis ; I don't find this offending, because we know the evil that were >the nazis, and in the WOD what has been done must have been a manipulations >by vampires. Ignoring that part of history would be the worst case of PC I >would have seen ; nearly as bad as negationism. Indeed. As I mentioned to another, ignorance should be addressed by education, not by sweeping-under-the-rug. There is a quote that reads "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it"; I find it remains true in everything from my day-to-day dealings to my overall life. >The only thing I really felt was offending in the whole game was the >caricature of the names of the Clans : ...Except that Jyhad was aimed at an American market originally, n'est pas? Perhaps those caricatures were also intended to bring the flavour and feel of a particular Clan to Americans who, lacking exposure to other cultures nearby, would not otherwise understand. >- Toreador is a spanish caricature for poseurs well, the clan ARE poseurs, right? =) >- Ventrue implies fat french bourgeois The same...? =) Although I would not say "french" in this case; I picture the Ventrue as the snooty American Harvard/Yale bluebloods. >- Malkavians could be thought to have an Armenian consonnance, but this must >be a coincidence, as I see no possible allusion (although I kid about it >with my Armenian vampire friends) Named directly from Malkav; I suspect someone just created the name "Malkav" and went from there. >- Brujahs : I don't understand the name (witch in spanish) but see no >offense in that. Probably, like Malkav, just characters flung together. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

"Colin Riggs" <colin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:bqenph$21nu1n$1...@ID-146737.news.uni-berlin.de... [ quoted text not captured ] I, as an innocent kid, did not get any negatives from these guys. All I saw (and maybe I saw the magnificent seven around this time too) were a bunch of poor, starving people who had become so weakened by hunger they couldn't get their own cheese. You can call me naive if you will, but with a child's eyes I saw exactly the opposite message you guys seem to have. -- Shevy "A friend is someone who helps you move. A real friend is someone who helps you move a body."

"Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote [ quoted text not captured ] No, I would not say that this is an accurate summation of my views on this matter. Not at all. I do find it interesting that I am the subject of such ridicule when I was only the original poster. Several people have since chimed in who also thought the images were inappropriate/weird/discomforting/whatever and yet somehow I am looking like some kind of crusading idiot for simply posting my thoughts on the matter. If this is what the "R" word is capable of, then Norm did have a point. One point. While I am quite happy to discuss these issues reasonably with those who are willing, I am not willing to be insulted. I can accept the possibility that I may be wrong on some counts or that the subject of racism may be too hot to handle in this forum, but this is all getting a bit silly. I do not think that this thread is heading anywhere constructive. Therefore, I am content to drop it all and get back to talking about the game. "Protect Thine Own is broken". There... chew on that bone for a while :) Cheers, WES

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:41:22 -0500, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> scrawled: [snip] >Indeed. As I mentioned to another, ignorance should be addressed by >education, not by sweeping-under-the-rug. There is a quote that reads >"those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it"; I find it remains >true in everything from my day-to-day dealings to my overall life. i saw a cute english mockumentary last night that had the quote: 'if there's one thing history can teach us, it's what happened in the past'. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

Wes <gh...@nyetspammnsi.net> wrote: : "Protect Thine Own is broken". : There... chew on that bone for a while :) Nothing to chew. It's not broken. =) //T

LOOOOL! I think this whole discussion is very, very WEIRD. It is true that dictionaries do not define word - people do. Don´t be surprised if "racism" means "stupid" in fifty years. BUT that is not an excuse for missusing words though, and we should try to use the dictionary defintion when writing here I think. That´s one reason why I think the original poster is wrong - I don´t think there is any such thing as MILD racism. Racism is racism and that is bad. The discussion about stereotypes is weird. I see two solutions to the "problem" 1.) Only white heterosexual males should ever be printed as vamps. 2.) A vamp could be named Jesus Alcala, but the artwork should look like a white heterosexual male (and maybe some vamps that ARE white heterosexual males, like Jeremy MacNeil, should be drawn with mariachi-outfits?) I don´t like either of theses solutions, and I´m quite satiesfied with the game as it is. And it´s artwork. Political correctness is for people who do not think of consequences alot. Another reason why the whole discussion is weird is The Sabbat as a sect in the World of Darkness (you know the fictious game-world-version of our world in which most WW games are set). Most members of The Sabbat think they are SUPERIOR to humans. They use humans as food and entertainment! A vamp of The Hand are more likely to dress in mariachi-clothes made of human flesh than to care about which ethnic group he belong to. If this isn´t racism I don´t know what is. See any RPG book about the sect or check out pictures of cards in the CCG. But this doesn´t bother you? Nor does it bother you that the whole concept of gypsy-clan Ravnos evolve around stealing things? Also, many vamps are born in another age - hundreds of years before 21st century political correctness, and their anachronsim may prevent them from giving a damn about why they should not wear 17th century arab outfit or not. I think this thing is why I like Vampire and the World of Darkness as a whole - things are different here! Other factors makes the problems of our own society totally obsolete. This is the same thing why so many people like fantasy sword&sorcery worlds - it´s OK for a elf to hate a dwarf, and when you go home from the nights gaming session dwarfs and elf (and ravnos) do not exist. If you can´t accept this, and see the difference between a undead Ravnos and a human gypsy, you´re in serious trouble in a LOT of ways! That´s my opinions.

> >François dresses like europeans did centuries ago. He is an Elder Toreador > >so I see nothing wrong with that. > > We shall remember that you said this. Art of Memory ? > >> I don't get the difference, myself. Either all stereotypes are bad > >> (which they aren't), or only the ones that are derogatory in some > >> fashion. Berets aren't derogatory of the French any more than tooks are > >> of Canadians. =) > > > >Have you ever been here, Derek ? NO ONE wears berets anymore. Except > > But wait! If nobody wears berets anymore, why is it OK for Francois to > wear one? Surely he could not blend in with today's society if he > did... which means that Francois really IS a stereotype! Do you know what a Béret IS ??? It had absolutely nothing to do with the coiffe (Renaissance ?) that Villon wears !!!!! > He is just one that you were not offended by, because you have imagined > a story behind his picture that suits your sensibilities. That is not a > bad thing at all, to not be offended, mind you. Fewer people should be > offended. Well, if I know something is a joke, I'll laugh ; if I think it is mockery, I might get offended. Anyway, that doesn't concern Villon. > >originals that would as well dress with a casquette, a texan hat or a crown > >of feathers ; and some very old people who mostly are Basque (they aren't > >really french, they claim their independence, and as a matter of facts they > >may very well be the only non-indo-european people in Europe !!). > > So -some- people wear berets, but only the unfashionable. OK. Well, > then Francois is one of those very old people who just happens to not be > Basque. That is fine and good, and so he wears a beret. LOL. But he doesn't. If you wish, I'll send you a picture of the type of berets that elder men used to wear in the first part of the last century... > >Considering the frenchmen on a fashion gone since around the last WW would > >be like thinking that all Germans or Austrians wear Hitler-like mustache : > >it would be offending and out-of-place. > > I agree absolutely. However, it is still one of the first mental images > which come to mind when the French are mentioned, largely because the > French are no longer distinguishable by their appearance or apparel. > For many years, different countries DID have different fashions, surely > where the stereotypes all originated in the first place... and so it is > no surprise that they have lingered. However, it is also no disrespect, > as otherwise how can one look at a picture and say "That one, he is > French!" Well, if you see someone beautiful, fashionable, with a glint of intelligence in the eye, he might be french ! ;-) On the other hand, if you see a necrofreak with skulls in every form you can imagine, everywhere on his body and the playing table, it might just be me... > Perhaps if he wears a turtleneck... ;) > > >That being said, the VTES Prince of Texas is as stereotyped as Jesus and the > >rest. Although I think Texans are proud of wearing their hats, that is still > >nothing but a caricature. > > Well... yes and no. While Texans would surely be offended to hear > someone characterize all Texans as cowboy-hat-wearin' oil barons, an > awful lot of Texans DO wear the cowboy hat, even today. It is a > stereotype which originated, as many do, in the reality of the time when > it was popular. Fashion tends to be memorable. > > Far fewer Texans wear cowboy hats now than before. However, even were I > a Texan, I would not be offended that the Prince of Dallas has him a > ten-gallon on -- it's the best way to draw a picture in the viewer's > mind. What I said exactly. I didn't imply they would be offended ; but a caricature is taking the bigger, obvious traits, and making them even more apparent. So to me, it is a caricature. > >But then, it's only a game, and the pictures need to talk quickly to us, to > >tell us in a few strokes who is this character. Still, I did react to some > >of those guys, especially Banjoko : it sounds like a slave's name. But I > >guess that must fit the background of a Lasombra taken from his homeland by > >spanish... > > Wouldn't it, though? > > >There have been some WW stories about how this clan or that one influenced > >the nazis ; I don't find this offending, because we know the evil that were > >the nazis, and in the WOD what has been done must have been a manipulations > >by vampires. Ignoring that part of history would be the worst case of PC I > >would have seen ; nearly as bad as negationism. > > Indeed. As I mentioned to another, ignorance should be addressed by > education, not by sweeping-under-the-rug. There is a quote that reads > "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it"; I find it remains > true in everything from my day-to-day dealings to my overall life. AH, if only it were in the interests of the Higher Powers to educate the people... But alas, that is neither the case, nor a fit subject for this here place. > >The only thing I really felt was offending in the whole game was the > >caricature of the names of the Clans : > > ...Except that Jyhad was aimed at an American market originally, n'est > pas? "n'est-ce pas" is the correct phrasing (just so that you can learn some more french...) ;) > Perhaps those caricatures were also intended to bring the flavour > and feel of a particular Clan to Americans who, lacking exposure to > other cultures nearby, would not otherwise understand. Unfortunately, yes ; but that is far from educating the players, which some other games, or even some Vampire expansions, have done (the best example probably being Nephilim, a french game which teaches a lot about occult groups, esoterism etc, really well documented - but addressed to french and minoritary public). > >- Toreador is a spanish caricature for poseurs > > well, the clan ARE poseurs, right? =) Errrr... And artists, too ? > >- Ventrue implies fat french bourgeois > > The same...? =) Although I would not say "french" in this case; I > picture the Ventrue as the snooty American Harvard/Yale bluebloods. Well, the term could be (improper) french. And when we play, we have to overcome the sensation of ridiculousness over the names, especially Ventrue and Toreador (everyone sings the Carmen part...). > >- Malkavians could be thought to have an Armenian consonnance, but this must > >be a coincidence, as I see no possible allusion (although I kid about it > >with my Armenian vampire friends) > > Named directly from Malkav; I suspect someone just created the name > "Malkav" and went from there. > > >- Brujahs : I don't understand the name (witch in spanish) but see no > >offense in that. > > Probably, like Malkav, just characters flung together. =) Probably... I can't help but notice you snipped the part about the independant Clans ? I guess there's no more to say about them... Orpheus

"Orpheus" <orph...@NOSPAMfree.fr> wrote > > > > Named directly from Malkav; I suspect someone just created the name > > "Malkav" and went from there. > > > > >- Brujahs : I don't understand the name (witch in spanish) but see no > > >offense in that. > > > > Probably, like Malkav, just characters flung together. =) > > Probably... > > I can't help but notice you snipped the part about the independant Clans ? I > guess there's no more to say about them... I was curious about the apparent French origin of the word Ventrue, so I did some googling and found this website. http://www.iit.edu/~lance/tremere/ar_etymology.html Interesting stuff. They've missed a few words though, notably most of the disciplines. Most are obscure English words for those who may not already know. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=auspex http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=celerity http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chimerical http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dementation http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fortitude http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=melpomene http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=obeah http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=obfuscate http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=obtenebration http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=protean http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=quietus (I like this one... fitting) http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tempura http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=thanatoses (close enough) http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=thaumaturgy http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vicissitude http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=viscerate (stretching a bit here... maybe) See... just by playing this game we're all becoming a little more edumacated. Cheers, WES

"Orpheus" <orph...@NOSPAMfree.fr> wrote in message news:3fcd3323$0$2379$626a...@news.free.fr... > Well, the term could be (improper) french. And when we play, we have to > overcome the sensation of ridiculousness over the names, especially Ventrue > and Toreador (everyone sings the Carmen part...). Whoo, I guess I'm not the only one that thinks of the opera when I see Toreador on the table ;-) Albert

> > Well, the term could be (improper) french. And when we play, we have to > > overcome the sensation of ridiculousness over the names, especially > Ventrue > > and Toreador (everyone sings the Carmen part...). > > Whoo, I guess I'm not the only one that thinks of the opera when I see > Toreador on the table ;-) > > Albert LOL. Certainly not !! As an aside, this is the only Opera I can think of from which most people know at least two aria : the "Toreador" one and the "L'amour est enfant de Bohème". Both are great classical tunes, and the opera is french. Thank you Bizet ! :) Orpheus