Bloodlines page up.

For all to see at: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_Bloodlines.html This struck me: "Bloodlines is the third expansion from White Wolf for Vampire: The Eternal Struggle, the collectible card game inspired by Vampire: The Masquerade and designed by the creator of Magic: The Gathering. Following the success of the Sabbat War and Final Nights expansions, Bloodlines introduces the Ahrimanes, Baali, Blood Brothers, Daughters of Cacophony, Gargoyles, Harbingers of Skulls, Kiasyd, Nagaraja, Salubri, Salubri antitribu, Samedi, and True Brujah along with each faction's unique vampiric powers." I have to say that reading this fills me with mixed feelings about the forthcoming release with respect to new players. Now I know that ideally you will not be trying to teach new people how to play V:TES using Bloodlines, and that the set is aimed at experienced players, but things are starting to get confusing. From a totally disconected point of view, the game is an impenetrable fog of meaningless words and symbols. There's 12 new clans probably with at least 10 new disciplines with their own symbols. Try teaching someone when you're up against that many different and apparently unconnected words that have a strong meaning in the game. To even stand a chance at getting the most out of this game you already have to: *Know the name of each clan *Know the name of each discipline *Match the discipline name to the symbol *Know which clans are likely to have which disciplines Adding a dozen new ones hardly helps matters. I'm woried that Bloodlines increases the gradient on the already steep learning curve (compared to most other CCGs) and pigeonholes the game yet further into the "WW game only playable by geek teen goths with too much time" pantheon. The view from an oldie already entrenched in the game is that that the new set looks pretty good though. :) mattgreen

What is even more confusing is that the main Vampire CCG page has the following in the NEWS section: Aug 23 The next V:TES set (after Bloodlines) will be a Camarilla edition, scheduled for release in Summer 2002. More details will be released here as they become available. Is this a typo or what? "mgreen02" <mgre...@bcuc.ac.uk> wrote in message news:a346f9cb.0109...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ]

mgreen02 <mgre...@bcuc.ac.uk> wrote in message news:a346f9cb.0109...@posting.google.com... > For all to see at: > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_Bloodlines.html > > From a totally disconected point of view, the game is an impenetrable > fog of meaningless words and symbols. There's 12 new clans probably > with at least 10 new disciplines with their own symbols. Try teaching > someone when you're up against that many different and apparently > unconnected words that have a strong meaning in the game. To even > stand a chance at getting the most out of this game you already have > to: > > *Know the name of each clan > *Know the name of each discipline > *Match the discipline name to the symbol > *Know which clans are likely to have which disciplines These concerns struck me as well as soon as we knew of the Bloodlines expansion. I'm a role-player first and a card gamer second, and I know that if it weren't for my knowledge of Vampire the Masquerade, I never ever would have had enough patience to learn all of the terms and alliances and what not associated with the game. I wasn't confused as much (some of the mechanics baffled me and I was slow to learn them, ask my playgroup) because I already knew that the Gangrel have protean and the Tzimisce have vicissitude. I knew that the Ventrue were in the Camarilla and the Lasombra were in the Sabbat. I knew what a Templar was and a Justicar so it was intuitive as to what they did in CCG terms. But if I were to come into the Jyhad as a total neonate, I would have quit after a month. This is why the Precons are such a god send. You can shrink the size of the Vampire world remarkably by teaching newbies with just one of the 8 pre cons available. And if you manage to teach a group of newbies with exclusively SW precons, it makes life a lot easier because you have MOST of the core disciplines available along with the major strageties presented. Trust me. I know. The good news is that I don't see the game expanding more than what it will become after bloodlines, at least from a clan, discipline, terminology point of view. After bloodlines, all of the major clans and bloodlines will have a place in the game and unless Justin Achilli and the other Masquerade developers go crazy and sprout off a 4th edition revised with 43647585854631 new bloodlines, I think we're safe. The exception would be if the CCG developers attempt to incorporate Kindred of the East into VTES (which I think would be a HORRIBLE mistake, unless we're talking just Allies and Retainers) or a Dark ages expansion (which Steve Wieck hinted at as a possibility). Any further expansions will probably deal with game mechanics and not actual new story related content. If I'm proven wrong, God help the newbies. Overall, I'm concerned but not too much because I'm reasonably certain that people running demos will be smart enough to walk newbies along so that we don't tell them "Hey there are 35 clans and bloodlines you have to memorize and learn a google number of disciplines! Hope it's not too much!" And for the people who have Masquerade knowledge already, I think bloodlines will help in a way because it shows how extensive the CCG is in representing Masquerade, and that it's not a watered down version of the RPG with a lot of stuff missing. Even though it is silly that Isabel De Leon could conceivably have a Pulse of the Canaille. But we'll leave that alone :-) Peteo

Mark Allen <alle...@home.com> wrote in message news:3uur7.37683$g45.17...@news3.rdc2.on.home.com... > What is even more confusing is that the main Vampire CCG page has the > following in the NEWS section: > > Aug 23 > The next V:TES set (after Bloodlines) will be a Camarilla edition, scheduled > for release in Summer 2002. More details will be released here as they > become available. > > Is this a typo or what? No it is not. White Wolf does plan to release a new base set in Summer 2002. This is to fix old errata, give newbies a chance to get valuable VTES only cards (5th Tradition, 2nd Tradition) and to add a few new camarilla cards to the mix. Not to mention that VTES as a whole has some major cosmetic things they need to get consistent. Not a practical matter, but it would make the CCG seem more professional or whatever. Peteo

In message <a346f9cb.0109...@posting.google.com>, mgreen02 <mgre...@bcuc.ac.uk> writes >To even >stand a chance at getting the most out of this game you already have >to: > >*Know the name of each clan >*Know the name of each discipline >*Match the discipline name to the symbol >*Know which clans are likely to have which disciplines Could someone (Steve Wieck? LSJ?) look into the possibility of revising the current information card? Thinking randomly, is there any possibility of a "book" style card? That is, take the current card, double its width and fold it in half (in order to keep it the size of a normal card), and then spread the necessary information over both cards? This might also allow a reversion to the V:TES fold out information of the three clan disciplines, along with default sect possibly (though card text will demonstrate that pretty much, now). Obviously, I've no idea how such would affect packing, pricing, production etc. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D When all the world seemed to sleep, why, why did you go? EBD690ECD7A1F Was it me? Was it you? B457CA213D7E6 Questions in a world of blue. 68C3695D623D5D

>For all to see at: >http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_Bloodlines.html Thanks for the web address. While I'm not too keen on the idea of Bloodline myself (when the idea first came out I was extremely worried about the future of the game), I do have to admit that the artwork looks interesting so far. The Samedi picture looks cool and the female is...interesting we'll say... In addition, as we all know, game balance is an essential aspect of Jyhad/VTES. However, since the Bloodlines are expressly meant to augment and supplement existing clans, I really think some clans might get too much of an edge over the others. Brujah get True Brujah. Lasombra get Kiasyd. How about the Tzimisce, Tremere, and Ravnos? Somehow I think that the introduction of Bloodlines might further imbalance the delicate equilibrium among the clans. Everything else you said, I pretty much agree. Halcyan 2

Matt Green wrote: >I have to say that reading this fills me with mixed feelings about the >forthcoming release with respect to new players. Now I know that >ideally you will not be trying to teach new people how to play V:TES >using Bloodlines, and that the set is aimed at experienced players, >but things are starting to get confusing. > >From a totally disconected point of view, the game is an impenetrable >fog of meaningless words and symbols. Some time ago, I posted a series of arguments discussing "Fragmentation" by which I meant the problems that would result from the continued proliferation of new clans and disciplines. I did not menion the concern that you raise -- the problem of remembering the significance of so many symbols -- though I agree that that would be a concern as well, should it be handled in the traditional way. However the announcement of the "Bloodlines" expansion did not heighten my apprehensions. Rather, it appeased my worries considerably. The mere fact that so many new groups would be added in a single small expansion indicated clearly that WW was NOT planning to introduce "new clans and disciplines" in the usual fashion, for they could not possibly introduce 12 new "clans" and 10 new "disciplines" in so small a space. Clearly, these bloodlines, with their unique powers, will not be presented in the usual fashion. A different approach will have to be taken, likely one that takes into account design concerns similar to those that you, I, and others have articulated. >There's 12 new clans probably >with at least 10 new disciplines with their own symbols. Try teaching Ah. Read more carefully. The web-page promises no new clans. In fact, it specifically states that the groups being introduced are "not clans unto themselves" and even suggests that some are "splinter offshoots of greater clans". Nor does it even promise that each will have its own clan symbol. No "new disciplines" have been promised on the page, and it certainly has not been promised that they will be presented in the traditional fashion. It was merely promised that "each faction's unique vampiric powers" will be represented (somehow). Now I do recall that in the original announcement Mr. Wieck did indeed promise "new disciplines", but he certainly did not promise TEN of them, and there is certainly no room for such. I also find it interesting that this promise of "new disciplines" has not been repeated in later announcements. At most, I would expect that two or three "new disciplines" will be presented in the traditional fashion, with others presented in less space-wasting ways (special abilities printed on vampires; group-based special abilities, "Path" cards modifying the nature of standard disciplines, etc.) >someone when you're up against that many different and apparently >unconnected words that have a strong meaning in the game. To even >stand a chance at getting the most out of this game you already have >to: > >*Know the name of each clan >*Know the name of each discipline >*Match the discipline name to the symbol >*Know which clans are likely to have which disciplines Now don't get me wrong -- I would rather like the new bloodlines to have their own symbols, as a purely decorative and aesthetic bonus feature. But there is absolutely no need for these to be presented in such a way that players must be required to rely on such features in order to play the game. Take for example the new Final Nights expansion. It introduced ten categories of ally/retainer (animals, changelings, demons, ghouls, mages, mortals, mummies, wraiths, werewolves, and zombies -- did I miss one?). No new symbols whatsoever were required, merely a self-explanatory reference to card text. In addition to the categories introduced by card text, at least two more sub-categories (bane mummies and hunters) were introduced by card title So if some or all of the new bloodlines are identified by card-text, (whether they reduntantly have a symbolic identification as well or no) then there will be no need for new players to remember new symbols. All that is needed is to type the word "Samedi" or "Baali" somewhere on the card. -- John Whelan

Halcyon wrote: >However, since the Bloodlines are expressly meant to augment and supplement >existing clans, I really think some clans might get too much of an edge over >the others. Not necessarily. The "balance" between clans is not that fragile, and balance concerns can adequately be considered in any good design >Brujah get True Brujah. Yes, but how many? Six at most, I think, and they will likely be mostly of high capacity. >Lasombra get Kiasyd. The Lasombra only have 15 vampires currently. The addition of a half-dozen odd Kiasid will hardly unbalance things, considering that other clans have 24, not even considering out-of-clan vampires that are compatible due to similar disciplines. >How about the >Tzimisce, Tremere, and Ravnos? Will likely recieve new animalism, auspex, dominate, and fortitude powers, as well as vampires with those abilities. In particular, the Tremere will be enhanced by the Nagaraja, who share two of their disciplines. >Somehow I think that the introduction of >Bloodlines might further imbalance the delicate equilibrium among the clans. I don't think that equilibrium is nearly so delicate as you suppose. Nor are the problems you mention incapable of being handled by an intelligent designer -- and we know we have one. -- John Whelan

>So if some or all of the new bloodlines are identified by card-text, (whether >they reduntantly have a symbolic identification as well or no) then there >will >be no need for new players to remember new symbols. All that is needed is to >type the word "Samedi" or "Baali" somewhere on the card. > But another important thing for White Wolf to remember is to not hamstring itself in the future. If White Wolf decides to make all those unique disciplines not actual "disciplines," or those bloodlines not actual "clans" per se (all of which isn't necessarily a bad thing), it will be stuck with that decision for the rest of time... I'm sure that even now White Wolf is more than a bit embarrassed with WotC's Blood Brother Ambush and Gargoyle Slave, both of which seem to be making less and less sense especially with Bloodlines now. So before deciding on the exact implementation for Bloodlines, they really have to have a good idea what direction they want the game to go in the future (and I'm sure they already now that!). Halcyan 2

>>Lasombra get Kiasyd. > >The Lasombra only have 15 vampires currently. The addition of a half-dozen >odd >Kiasid will hardly unbalance things, considering that other clans have 24, >not >even considering out-of-clan vampires that are compatible due to similar >disciplines. Yes but at least for now, the Lasombra are relatively balanced with the rest of the Sabbat clans. What happens if (when) they decide to bring the number of Sabbat vampires to 24 (to match the Camarilla and Independents)? Should the Kiasyd "count" as some of the Lasombra's vampires? Or will they give them a hefty advantage? Similarly, even just 6 True Brujah might give quite a bit of an advantage to the Brujah. >>How about the >>Tzimisce, Tremere, and Ravnos? > >Will likely recieve new animalism, auspex, dominate, and fortitude powers, as >well as vampires with those abilities. In particular, the Tremere will be >enhanced by the Nagaraja, who share two of their disciplines. Actually I've previously addressed how the Nagaraja (aus/dom/nec) might help the Tremere. I was just using some clans as an example. But the point still stands: some clans will get a lot more out of the expansion than others (and for no other reason than "that's the way the RPG is like." Halcyan 2

Halcyon wrote: >But another important thing for White Wolf to remember is to not hamstring >itself in the future. Which is exactly why too many disciplines (in particular) should not be added. It creates too many "fragments" of the game and commits White Wolf to supporting each indefinitely. And once done, it cannot be undone. >If White Wolf decides to make all those unique disciplines not actual >"disciplines," or those bloodlines not actual "clans" per se (all of which >isn't necessarily a bad thing), it will be stuck with that decision for the >rest of time... You are (perhaps unfortunately) probably wrong about this. A "non-fragmenting" approach commits White Wolf to nothing at all. Printing a handful of Gargoyles with Potence, Fortitude, and various Visceratika-inspired special abilities such as optional maneuvers each combat in no way prevents them of later printing Gargoyles with a Visceratika discipline symbol and a whole host of cards to support that discipline (Bad Idea, IMHO). In particular, it in no way limits White Wolf's options at all if Bloodlines are not treated as clans, per se, or if they are not identifed exclusively by symbol. If they are identifed by card text ("Gargoyle; Independent") or card title "Vincent LaVie (Gargoyle)" then they may be referenced by cards in the usual fashion: "Requires Ready Gargoyle" etc. They can still have (and probably should have) a distinctive card backround with clan symbol, but this need not be relied upon as knowledge players need to have. One can do with words anything that can be done with symbols. >I'm sure that even now White Wolf is more than a bit embarrassed with WotC's >Blood Brother Ambush and Gargoyle Slave, both of which seem to be making less >and less sense especially with Bloodlines now. I don't think they are embarrassed, nor should they be. Certainly, this did not hamstring them or limit their options, as history has shown. And I seem to recall that "Camarilla Vitae Slave" was printed as a retainter long after a whole host were printed as standard vampires. >So before deciding on the exact implementation for Bloodlines, they really >have >to have a good idea what direction they want the game to go in the future >(and >I'm sure they already now that!). I'm certain. -- John Whelan

Halcyan 2 wrote: > > > Yes but at least for now, the Lasombra are relatively balanced with the rest of > the Sabbat clans. What happens if (when) they decide to bring the number of > Sabbat vampires to 24 (to match the Camarilla and Independents)? Should the > Kiasyd "count" as some of the Lasombra's vampires? Or will they give them a > hefty advantage? Similarly, even just 6 True Brujah might give quite a bit of > an advantage to the Brujah. > But don't you consider that discipline wise The Brujah have !Brujah The Toreador have !Toreador The Nosferatu have !Nosferatu and vice versa and Toreador have Brujah (2 shared clan disciplines) This puts these clans at high numbers anyway. The clans will never manage true balance, and I don't think they should. Leave them to increase at their own rate, influence the ones you want, and construct decks around that. I personally think bloodlines will give a little taste of other things that are out there in the world of darkness to influence as a Methesulah, and that will aid the game. Yes, it might make it a little difficult to start with, but then once newbies have learnt the basics, I don't see that it will be a problem to then pick up the rest. Andy Setite Ruler of Cambridge www.geocities.com/setitesuk -- Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outragous fortune, or get fat on chocolate cake, eat the cake, life is too short to worry!

Halcyon wrote: >Yes but at least for now, the Lasombra are relatively balanced with the rest >of >the Sabbat clans. What happens if (when) they decide to bring the number of >Sabbat vampires to 24 I doubt that this will radically effect their power. In any event, balance considerations need not be considered for the next expansion until the next expansion is released, at which point the designer will know better what imbalances currently exist and might need to be addressed. Your concern is way premature, especially considering that the next set will be Camarilla. If I were you, I would be far more concerned that some abusively powerful card may get past the playtesters unnoticed. This seems a far more likely possibility in my book. But even mistakes like that can be corrected. >(to match the Camarilla and Independents)? Should the >Kiasyd "count" as some of the Lasombra's vampires? Or will they give them a >hefty advantage? Similarly, even just 6 True Brujah might give quite a bit of >an advantage to the Brujah. If you count the Antitribu's, the Brujah already have 24+15 +39 vampires. Add in the Toreador & the Toreador Antitribu (who share 2 of their 3 disciplines just as the True Brujah do) and you get 40 more vampires. Then their are countless others who share their discipline to varying extents. Adding 6 "True Brujah" to the mix is a drop in the bucket at this point. I don't even know if we will get as many as 6 each for the bloodlines. If the set contains 60 vampires (more than the last one, with 58), then that is only 5 vampires for each of 12 bloodlines -- assuming no new vampires get introduced for traditional clans. >>>How about the >>>Tzimisce, Tremere, and Ravnos? >> >>Will likely recieve new animalism, auspex, dominate, and fortitude powers, >as >>well as vampires with those abilities. In particular, the Tremere will be >>enhanced by the Nagaraja, who share two of their disciplines. > >Actually I've previously addressed how the Nagaraja (aus/dom/nec) might help >the Tremere. I was just using some clans as an example. But the point still >stands: I think that your point hardly stands without a better example. And I think we should look at the actual cards printed before assessing game balance. >some clans will get a lot more out of the expansion than others (and >for no other reason than "that's the way the RPG is like." Some clans will get a little more than others for a myriad of reasons. Probably it will probably be something totally unanticipated, like the Anti-Malks getting a new auspex card that just happens to work too well in a sick dementation combo that the design team did not anticipate. Maintaining balance is far more complex than counting vampires. The RPG, of course, does very little to limit designers options. Spiritus could be reinterpreted as a Path of Auspex (just as Nihilistics was reinterpreted as Necromancy), in which case the Ahrimanes could complement the Tzimisce well with their auspex/animalism combo. Alternatvely, the designer could just print a few atypicals who happen to mesh with the Tzimisce.

mgreen02 wrote: > From a totally disconected point of view, the game is an impenetrable > fog of meaningless words and symbols. There's 12 new clans probably > with at least 10 new disciplines with their own symbols. Try teaching > someone when you're up against that many different and apparently > unconnected words that have a strong meaning in the game. To even > stand a chance at getting the most out of this game you already have > to: > > *Know the name of each clan > *Know the name of each discipline > *Match the discipline name to the symbol > *Know which clans are likely to have which disciplines Not really. All you have to do is match the symbols on your library cards with the symbols on your crypt cards, now that the names are never being used without the symbols nearby. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On 24 Sep 2001 01:00:06 GMT, Halcyan 2 wrote: >In addition, as we all know, game balance is an essential aspect of VTES. >However, since the Bloodlines are expressly meant to augment and supplement >existing clans, I really think some clans might get too much of an edge over >the others. Brujah get True Brujah. Lasombra get Kiasyd. How about the >Tzimisce, Tremere, and Ravnos? Somehow I think that the introduction of >Bloodlines might further imbalance the delicate equilibrium among the clans. Delicate equilibrium? The last time I looked at this, the Ventrue were way out in front of the other clans (whose performance was far from uniform). Looking at the decks in the final of this weekend's EC championship, they include: * Emerson vote and bleed * Queen Ann takeover bloat * presence and dominate vote / bleed bounce Kudos to the Malkavian antitribu that beat all these successful Ventrue. His key tactic was to change their clan and so turn them into losers. That's a fun way of subverting their dominance - a shame that it depends upon the power-rare Derange and so is not available to commoners. Andrew

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news: 20010924003606...@mb-mv.aol.com... (snip) > Similarly, even just 6 True Brujah might give quite a bit of > an advantage to the Brujah Yes and No. Providing the True Brujah will be High cap and cannot learn and use celerity at all (like in the RPG), they will benefit experienced players only, who want to create soemthing new. reyda

"Nystulc" <nys...@cs.com> a écrit dans le message news: 20010924030344...@mb-ma.news.cs.com... : > Maintaining balance is far more complex than counting vampires. i agree. i hope the playtest will be sufficient. are the playtesters' logic as twisted as the "real" players' ? > The RPG, of course, does very little to limit designers options. Spiritus > could be reinterpreted as a Path of Auspex (just as Nihilistics was > reinterpreted as Necromancy), in which case the Ahrimanes could complement the > Tzimisce well with their auspex/animalism combo. No. spiritus will be spiritus. the clans are suppose to be introduced with their own particular disciplines. We know that from the beginning. > Alternatvely, the designer > could just print a few atypicals who happen to mesh with the Tzimisce. It's obvious, they will mesh even if they share only 2 disciplines. You are not forced to use 3 disciplines to make a deck =) i saw Potence only or Aus/Vic only decks that works really well. reyda

mgre...@bcuc.ac.uk (mgreen02) wrote in message news:<a346f9cb.0109...@posting.google.com>... > For all to see at: > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_Bloodlines.html > > This struck me: > > "Bloodlines is the third expansion from White Wolf for Vampire: The > Eternal Struggle, the collectible card game inspired by Vampire: The > Masquerade and designed by the creator of Magic: The Gathering. > Following the success of the Sabbat War and Final Nights expansions, > Bloodlines introduces the Ahrimanes, Baali, Blood Brothers, Daughters > of Cacophony, Gargoyles, Harbingers of Skulls, Kiasyd, Nagaraja, > Salubri, Salubri antitribu, Samedi, and True Brujah along with each > faction's unique vampiric powers." > > I have to say that reading this fills me with mixed feelings I have to say I do have my reservations, and for similar reasons. As a VEKN Prince, I feel responsible for encouraging as many players as possible, both new and experienced. I can see the plethora of new clans, disciplines and their associated symbols being somewhat of a headache, especially for newbies. I fear we will have to label Bloodlines an 'advanced' set, specifying non-Bloodlines demos and intro games to avoid making things more confusing for observers and newcomers. One additional concern I have from an RPG purist point of view is the number of things that appear to have been left out of the Bloodlines set. If this card set is supposed to be a catchall for all the other disparate vampiric elements of the WoD, then why were Assamite antitribu, Ravnos antitribu and Serpents of the Light not included? And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce? I suspect there will be no sect card text referring to the Black Hand or the Inconnu either? If these elements are not to be included in this or future cardsets then why not? It all seems a bit slapdash and half-hearted to me. (Obviously I have not been privy to the playtest info, nor WW's future release schedule. Can Steve, Todd or LSJ address my fears?) Regards, Mike Nudd VEKN Prince of London

[ quoted text not captured ] "Bloodlines", the WoD term, doesn't encompass the groups you mention. "antitribu" clans are not "bloodlines" - they're just members of a major clan that have a different allegiance than the majority of their clanmates. (The fact that the card game represents them as separate clans notwithstanding.) The Bloodlines expansion focuses on the Bloodlines and is already bursting at the seams with the actual bloodlines to even consider extending the scope to all hitherto-unrepresented WoD concepts. No one can say that a given WoD element will never be included in a future cardset, so the question "why not" is moot. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3BAF0BA1...@white-wolf.com>... > mgreen02 wrote: [snip] > > To even stand a chance at getting the most out of this game you already have > > to: > > > > *Know the name of each clan > > *Know the name of each discipline > > *Match the discipline name to the symbol > > *Know which clans are likely to have which disciplines > > Not really. All you have to do is match the symbols on your library cards > with the symbols on your crypt cards, now that the names are never being > used without the symbols nearby. Granted. Playing the game at a basic nuts and bolts level you can treat it as a symbol matching excerise. Getting the most out of the game is a different matter. The problem arises when you try and communicate information about the game, especially as the symbols themselves are interpretive. My girlfriend, for example, who is learning and is by no means a bad player, technically, coming as she does from a Magic background would have trouble interacting with this newsgroup unless she knew the above information. For me to talk to her about the game involves the same information or a verbally descriptive use of the symbols. It's better than it was, but the Jyhad set is not the benchmark to measure ease of play by, it is Pokemon or Harry Potter. mattgreen "....so the yellow guys...." "The Ventrue antitribu." "....um, yeah, they've got; Eyeball, Patio...and what else?" "Fortitude" "??" "Mountain" "Ah. And the purple guys...." "Which purple guys?" "The ones with Wave" "Yes, the Lasombra do have Obtenebration, i'm with you- go on" "Yeah them. They have; Wave, Patio and Fist right?" "Right" "So which ones have; Patio, Eyeball and Pentagram then?" "Don't worry about them."

On 24 Sep 2001 06:22:22 -0700, mgreen02 wrote: >"The ones with Wave" >"Yes, the Lasombra do have Obtenebration... Around here, it's called "hairy". Andrew

Thanks for the heads-up, matt. Personally i am reasonably sanguine about how this is going to fit into the existing scheme of things. The only thing that worries me is how we are going to run pre-releases if WW have really stopped printing precons. Will there be prerelease events? Is there enough product left to be sure that there will be material to run them?

In message <7306A225984D450E.5FCA477C...@lp.airnew s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes >Delicate equilibrium? The last time I looked at this, the Ventrue >were way out in front of the other clans (whose performance was far >from uniform). The Ventrue have a considerable amount of flexibility in a number of ways which makes them really quite popular. That they also work well defensively in combat and offensively in votes/bleeding means that it is somewhat easier for J. Random Player to construct a deck that will survive. The same player playing, say, Malkavians will struggle somewhat to cover the bases without a fair degree of skill - Malkavian combat defence is one of those tricky concepts to master. When the clans get played by the right players with good skill, however, it is far more tricky to establish what will happen where and when. Lots of games have similar issues. Whilst I haven't heard much from Lo5R for a long time, at one point (AIUI) the Crane clan were quite powerful and quite versatile, but needed a strong player to bring them through, once the players had realised "Ah, Crane clan. Honour win easy. Must resist." Put a powerful Ventrue deck[0] against a powerful Gangrel Royalty deck, a strong Setite Free States Rant deck, an out-of-turn Malkavian Rotschreck deck and a Tzimisce intercept-bleed deck[1] and all of them have extremely strong chances of doing well. It's far from a foregone conclusion. [0] Whatever particular Ventrue deck you want. Just be glad it's not the old Arika-RtoI-Day Operation deck (c) Rob Treasure, GenConUK 1997. [1] Order the table however you want. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <9on962$3ek$1...@hadron.noos.net>, Reyda <re...@noos.fr> writes >"Nystulc" <nys...@cs.com> a écrit dans le message news: >20010924030344...@mb-ma.news.cs.com... >> Maintaining balance is far more complex than counting vampires. > >i agree. i hope the playtest will be sufficient. are the playtesters' logic >as twisted as the "real" players' ? I would suggest that LSJ's often is that twisted, in a pre-emptive manner, even if no-one else's is. [ quoted text not captured ]

The big problem with all these new vamps and clans is that they make it less and less likely that people will contest. Back in the old Jyhad-only days, contesting was a large dimension of the game. It has become less and less so. (There are a few exceptional vamps that make their way into many decks.) Contesting was almost a viable strategy for eliminating pool (it was sort of a two edged sword.) Franz [ quoted text not captured ]

Reyda wrote: >No. spiritus will be spiritus. the clans are suppose to be introduced with >their own particular disciplines. We know that from the beginning. I believe you are mistaken. Please provide a quote. The most that was EVER said was that the set would contain new disciplines. It was never said that EACH new group would have a new discipline (and we know that this is not so anyway, re the Nagaraja and the Harbingers). Nor was it promised that "new disciplines" would be presented in the original manner. Sure, each group will have its unique vampiric powers represented in some fashion, but that could mean anything. We know that there is scant room in the set for presenting ten whole new disciplines in the traditional fashion. Do the math yourself. -- John Whelan

>One additional concern I have from an RPG purist point of view is the >number of things that appear to have been left out of the Bloodlines >set. If this card set is supposed to be a catchall for all the other >disparate vampiric elements of the WoD, then why were Assamite >antitribu, Ravnos antitribu and Serpents of the Light not included? Has a reason for not focusing on these ever been given? Kill two birds by both finishing off (first edition) Sabbat and by giving decks built around the disciplines more options. >And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce? I expect this is fairly easy for WW to do in future expansions as they wouldn't require introducing new disciplines or sects, whereas the optimal time for introducing the rest of the Sabbat has long passed. Though, I suppose if !Trem come back fleshed out, could do an expansion focused around !Ravnos, !Trem, !Assamites, SoL. I suspect there >will be no sect card text referring to the Black Hand or the Inconnu >either? What is the Ma- ... Black Hand? I have The Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand book, and it's messy with the false BH, the true BH, there silly war against Vicissitude, etc. I believe later editions of the RPG may have overwritten that info anyway. The only way I'd see having the Inconnu's presence in the game would be some sort of master that did weirdness, a la Lupine Assault. The whole point of the Inconnu is to be outside the Jyhad. The effects of their existence should be "random" to represent that.

On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:54:25 -0400, Franz Foltz <faf...@osfmail.isc.rit.edu> wrote: >The big problem with all these new vamps and clans is that they make it >less and less likely that people will contest. Back in the old Which is good. Right now, contesting vampires usually kills or weakens both decks involved in the contestation, unless the vampire in question is Smudge. >Jyhad-only days, contesting was a large dimension of the game. It has >become less and less so. (There are a few exceptional vamps that make >their way into many decks.) Contesting was almost a viable strategy for >eliminating pool (it was sort of a two edged sword.) One which -invariably- cuts both ways, yes. I am not sorry to see more variety in the game, myself; especially considering the length of individual games. -- Derek AGITATOR, n. A statesman who shakes the fruit trees of his neighbors -- to dislodge the worms.

>Kudos to the Malkavian antitribu that beat all these successful >Ventrue. His key tactic was to change their clan and so turn them >into losers. That's a fun way of subverting their dominance - a >shame that it depends upon the power-rare Derange and so is not >available to commoners. You seem awfully fond of the term "power rares" Andrew. Anyway, if you mean that Joe Bloggs can't walk down the street, buy a $9.95 starter deck and automatically get a Derange then you're right. But don't forget the collectible aspect of the game. It *is* possible for "commoners" to get Deranges. If they aren't, then they're probably not trying hard enough or don't want them that much... Halcyan 2

Mike Nudd <mi...@vekn.org.uk> wrote in message news:36e685b2.01092...@posting.google.com... > One additional concern I have from an RPG purist point of view is the > number of things that appear to have been left out of the Bloodlines > set. If this card set is supposed to be a catchall for all the other > disparate vampiric elements of the WoD, then why were Assamite > antitribu, Ravnos antitribu and Serpents of the Light not included? > And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce? I suspect there > will be no sect card text referring to the Black Hand or the Inconnu > either? If these elements are not to be included in this or future > cardsets then why not? It all seems a bit slapdash and half-hearted to > me. (Obviously I have not been privy to the playtest info, nor WW's > future release schedule. Can Steve, Todd or LSJ address my fears?) If I were in the designer's shoes, I wouldn't include the !Assamites, !Ravnos, SOL, !Lasombra into the mix in the traditional way. There is absolutely no need for more confusion with terms, symbols and clan-only cards considering that the four groups above do not have different discipline spreads than their counterparts. The main 7 antitribu clans play a bigger role in the RPG in terms of formation of the Sabbat and they needed to have been represented as totally different clans to help make the Sabbat a viable sect for the CCG, not to mention the fact that three of the seven main antitribu have different discipline spreads. If you notice, White Wolf has already hinted at the inclusion of the !Ravnos and the !Lasombra with Lucita (marked Independent) and Anka, Priestess of Thorns (marked Sabbat). I think this will be a perfect way to continue to represent certain antitribu clans, (just change their sect in the card text) without all of the headache of making them official clans. The Black Hand should be included in the CCG at some point I think. As we've seen, Emiliano has some wonderful BH cards and rules variants on his website, and I found myself wishing that something like that would be incluuded in the future. This makes me wonder however, why do so many people on this news group seem to think that expansions must now be released as "sect-focused?" People are saying that the next Independent expansion or the next Sabbat expansion are way far off. Why not include the Blackhand in the next expansion after the Camarilla 2002 expansion? There is no rule saying that once we include a Sabbat element into a set that the whole set must now be Sabbat focused.

In message <20010924154844...@mb-df.aol.com>, Ian Lee <cur...@aol.com> writes >>One additional concern I have from an RPG purist point of view is the >>number of things that appear to have been left out of the Bloodlines >>set. If this card set is supposed to be a catchall for all the other >>disparate vampiric elements of the WoD, then why were Assamite >>antitribu, Ravnos antitribu and Serpents of the Light not included? > >Has a reason for not focusing on these ever been given? Kill two birds by both >finishing off (first edition) Sabbat and by giving decks built around the >disciplines more options. Considering the fact that Sabbat War was chosen above Final Nights for marketing reasons (a necessary evil), it seems quite likely that similar thoughts may well have been had here. White Wolf may feel that they've used the Sabbat "draw" as much as they care to at the present time, preferring to exploit other facets of the World of Darkness milieu such that no one area becomes used too much. Mike: >>And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce? Unless things have changed significantly, I seem to recall that non- Sabbat Tzimisce were practically non-existent - far, far more so than the Lasombra Antitribu of whom there are quite a few. >I expect this is fairly easy for WW to do in future expansions as they wouldn't >require introducing new disciplines or sects, whereas the optimal time for >introducing the rest of the Sabbat has long passed. Though, I suppose if !Trem >come back fleshed out, could do an expansion focused around !Ravnos, !Trem, >!Assamites, SoL. This seems like quite good idea indeed for, say, Spring 2003. Or, if they want to make it a fairly large set like Final Nights, release it at the end of 2003/start of 2004 with a smaller set in the middle of 2003. (I really, really, really want the number of sets per year to slow down. The game needs time to re-adjust.) >The only way I'd see having the Inconnu's presence in the game would be some >sort of master that did weirdness, a la Lupine Assault. The whole point of the >Inconnu is to be outside the Jyhad. The effects of their existence should be >"random" to represent that. A Salubri card with Inconnu inclinations is quite possible, given the "apology" in 2nd edition Players Guide. [ quoted text not captured ]

>>>And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce? > >Unless things have changed significantly, I seem to recall that non- >Sabbat Tzimisce were practically non-existent - far, far more so than >the Lasombra Antitribu of whom there are quite a few. Yep. Whereas there's a decent number of Lasombra Anti's (probably about the same number as Assamites Schismatics which are about a third of the Assamite clan), you can pretty much count the number of Camarilla Tzimisce on one hand... >(I really, really, really want the number of sets per year to slow down. >The game needs time to re-adjust.) I agree. And our bank accounts need time to re-adjust as well! =) Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010924185817...@mb-fc.aol.com... > >>>And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce? > > > >Unless things have changed significantly, I seem to recall that non- > >Sabbat Tzimisce were practically non-existent - far, far more so than > >the Lasombra Antitribu of whom there are quite a few. > > Yep. Whereas there's a decent number of Lasombra Anti's (probably about the > same number as Assamites Schismatics which are about a third of the Assamite > clan), you can pretty much count the number of Camarilla Tzimisce on one > hand... > And the Old Country Tzimisce? The guys with ANI, AUS and DOM *drool*

On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:52:54 GMT, "Peter Oh" <ohb...@wam.umd.edu> wrote: >The Black Hand should be included in the CCG at some point I think. As >we've seen, Emiliano has some wonderful BH cards and rules variants on his >website, and I found myself wishing that something like that would be >incluuded in the future. This makes me wonder however, why do so many >people on this news group seem to think that expansions must now be released >as "sect-focused?" People are saying that the next Independent expansion or >the next Sabbat expansion are way far off. Why not include the Blackhand in >the next expansion after the Camarilla 2002 expansion? There is no rule >saying that once we include a Sabbat element into a set that the whole set >must now be Sabbat focused. > Let me just throw out a plug for my preferred "Next Expansion After The Camarilla One" (NEATCO?) The Renegades. I would LOVE to see a storyline-attached (not storyline-focused) expansion looking at those who THINK they've escaped the Jyhad. The Anarch Free State could give us some new weenies and some new anti-weenie goodness, as well as some Eastern Kindred masters or Allies. The Black Hand, as mentioned, could be the shot in the arm that Sabbat politics is missing as well as throwing in some neat diablerie-related oddities. This would also be the logical set for a few Sabbat Setites, Ravnos, and Assamites and maybe 1 Independent Tzimisce with ANI AUS DOM etc etc etc and a familiar name. Possibly a few other Inconnu-related masters or locations. Just a data point, in case WW is wondering what to do in 2003. Mark Woodhouse Prince of Minneapolis (and slavering for his Bloodlines... BTW, _love_ the logo design)

Mike Nudd wrote: >One additional concern I have from an RPG purist point of view is the >number of things that appear to have been left out of the Bloodlines >set. If this card set is supposed to be a catchall for all the other >disparate vampiric elements of the WoD, then why were Assamite >antitribu, Ravnos antitribu and Serpents of the Light not included? >And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce? As far as the Ravnos Antitribu and the Lasombra Antribu are concerned (at least), there already appears to be a clear indication on how the design team intends to handle such issues. For instance the most prominent "Lasombra Antitribu" in the WoD unverse, currently, seems to be Lucita. The design team handled this merely by giving her an alternate sect allegiance. And we also have "Anka: Priestess of Thorns", a Sabbat Ravnos. >I suspect there >will be no sect card text referring to the Black Hand or the Inconnu >either? You cannot reasonably have Inconnu as vampires in play -- because that is contrary to the entire concept of being Inconnu. Once you influence an vampire into play he is about as Connu as he can be. However, if you want to imagine yourself (the Methuselah) as an Inconnu, that is fine. I'm sure we will see Black Hand eventually, though I am personally not much looking foreward to them. More Sabbat Scumbags, and likely even harder to kill than usual! -- John Whelan

Jeroen Rombouts wrote: >And the Old Country Tzimisce? The guys with ANI, AUS and DOM >*drool* Officially, no such group exists as a well-defined entity. That is why the term "Old Clan Tzimisce" was dropped in preference for terminology such as you just used. There are elder Tzimisce who, for various reasons, did not joint the Sabbat. Some (but not all) of these, for their own reasons again, reject the use of Vicissitude. Some of those who reject Vicissitide perhaps prefer Dominate, whereas others might prefer Potence -- or whatever. They have no definable political structure, are not a clan, and do not have their own set discipline mix. No doubt, there is more than one Independent Tzimice with ani-aus-dom. But they do not form a definable group in any official sense. Of course, nothing prevents WW from printing, in some future expansion, one or more Independent Tzimisce who dwell in the Old Country and have Dominate instead of Vicissitude. -- John Whelan

Franz Foltz wrote: >The big problem with all these new vamps and clans is that they make it >less and less likely that people will contest. I am not particularly eager to see contesting of vampires as a strategy. I would, however, like to see more contesting of Titles. I do not think, for instance, that we need to introduce into the game any more Cities for vampires to be Princes of. If more Princes are introduced to the game, they can re-use old cities, and contest eachother's titles if both come into play. -- John Whelan

>For instance the most prominent "Lasombra Antitribu" in the WoD unverse, >currently, seems to be Lucita. The design team handled this merely by giving >her an alternate sect allegiance. Actually, in turns out Lucita wasn't really a Lasombra Antitribu after all (!Lasombra are in the Camarilla any way, by default). In fact, Lucita really should be considered just plain "Lasombra" since she's joined up with the Sabbat ever since SW! (She now manages Madrid since Moncada's dead). Halcyan 2

"Nystulc" <nys...@cs.com> a écrit dans le message news: 20010924153620...@mb-ma.news.cs.com... > Reyda wrote: > > >No. spiritus will be spiritus. the clans are suppose to be introduced with > >their own particular disciplines. We know that from the beginning. > > I believe you are mistaken. Please provide a quote. S Wieck said that in a interview made by a european player months ago. > The most that was EVER said was that the set would contain new disciplines. It > was never said that EACH new group would have a new discipline (and we know > that this is not so anyway, re the Nagaraja and the Harbingers). some new clans use old disciplines, of course. Some vampire will have very special powers, reflecting what they clan can (or cannot do), for sure ! but they promised us all those new disciplines and i'm sure we won't be disappointed. (snip) > We know that there is scant room in the set for presenting ten whole new > disciplines in the traditional fashion. Do the math yourself. If they introduce only 7 or 8 *useful* cards for each discipline, that's not so bad ! remember there was only 10 quietus cards in Ancient Hearts ! remember that the new bloodlines vampires are here to support existing clans and create new variations. reyda

"Nystulc" <nys...@cs.com> a écrit dans le message news: 20010925034729...@mb-fk.news.cs.com... > I am not particularly eager to see contesting of vampires as a strategy. I > would, however, like to see more contesting of Titles. I do not think, for > instance, that we need to introduce into the game any more Cities for vampires > to be Princes of. If more Princes are introduced to the game, they can re-use > old cities, and contest eachother's titles if both come into play. Hey !! that's a very neat idea !

<snip> > > mattgreen > > > "....so the yellow guys...." > "The Ventrue antitribu." > "....um, yeah, they've got; Eyeball, Patio...and what else?" > "Fortitude" > "??" > "Mountain" > "Ah. And the purple guys...." > "Which purple guys?" > "The ones with Wave" > "Yes, the Lasombra do have Obtenebration, i'm with you- go on" > "Yeah them. They have; Wave, Patio and Fist right?" > "Right" > "So which ones have; Patio, Eyeball and Pentagram then?" > "Don't worry about them." This brought tears to my eyes, and i'm sure to many another. Thank-you, Matt! i've just been trying to explain the special abilities of the brown guys with paw, mountain and curly-wurly, for whom, of course, patio is the much-neglected fourth discipline.

In message <9opk8o$oo7$1...@neon.noos.net>, Reyda <re...@noos.fr> writes >>If more Princes are introduced to the game, they can >re-use >> old cities, and contest eachother's titles if both come into play. > >Hey !! that's a very neat idea ! One simple addition would be to have more cross-over of the Praxis and Diocese, since they contest. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010924164245...@mb-md.aol.com... > >Kudos to the Malkavian antitribu that beat all these successful > >Ventrue. His key tactic was to change their clan and so turn them > >into losers. That's a fun way of subverting their dominance - a > >shame that it depends upon the power-rare Derange and so is not > >available to commoners. Noal McDonald, Prince of Detroit, has a nifty Derange deck with 12 of the suckers. He traded heavily for them, which anyone can do. You can get a booster box of Jyhad for $10. In that box you'll probably get a freak drive and one other big rare like a Form of Mist or Flesh of Marble or such... maybe even a Temptation of Greater Power. You could probably trade each of those for two deranges, like Noal did. You can generally make anything you want if you are patient enough. Whether the current tournament scene encourages such creativity or discourages it is a different discussion all together. Matt Denizen of the Sewers of Detroit (the power behind the throne)

>> >Kudos to the Malkavian antitribu that beat all these successful >> >Ventrue. His key tactic was to change their clan and so turn them >> >into losers. That's a fun way of subverting their dominance - a >> >shame that it depends upon the power-rare Derange and so is not >> >available to commoners. Mr. Latham, I believe you misquoted me. The above statement was Andrew's and I was merely refuting it. >Noal McDonald, Prince of Detroit, has a nifty Derange deck with 12 of the >suckers. He traded heavily for them, which anyone can do. You can get a >booster box of Jyhad for $10. In that box you'll probably get a freak drive >and one other big rare like a Form of Mist or Flesh of Marble or such... >maybe even a Temptation of Greater Power. You could probably trade each of >those for two deranges, like Noal did. > >You can generally make anything you want if you are patient enough. Whether >the current tournament scene encourages such creativity or discourages it is >a different discussion all together. > > Exactly my point but with a concrete example instead of just theory. Thank you Mr. Latham. =) Halcyan 2

>> (I really, really, really want the number of sets per year to slow down. >> The game needs time to re-adjust.) > > I agree. And our bank accounts need time to re-adjust as well! =) Hear, hear. If White Wolf could take anything from their fan base, it should be the request to slow down the expansions. V:TES is far more complicated than the typical CCG, and takes more time to digest. Say, an 8-month cycle would do us a LOT, LOT, LOT better than a 6-month cycle. ("LOT, LOT, LOT" triple emphasis as borrowed from Mr. Coupe's "really, really, really." Something to take special note of, since both of us usually just use appropriate adjectives, but English is failing in describing how much it means to us, and how much we think it means to the game.) -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

>"Nystulc" <nys...@cs.com> a écrit dans le message news: >20010924153620...@mb-ma.news.cs.com... >> Reyda wrote: >> >> >No. spiritus will be spiritus. the clans are suppose to be introduced >with >> >their own particular disciplines. We know that from the beginning. >> >> I believe you are mistaken. Please provide a quote. > >S Wieck said that in a interview made by a european player months ago. Again: Quote Please! Said that? Said WHAT? Did he say "Spiritus will be Spiritus and clans will be introduced with their own particular disciplines"? That means little to me, even if he did say it. -- John Whelan

Halcyon wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] All perfectly consistent with WoD's conception of what an "antitribu" is. It is simply a clan member who has an alternate sect allegiance. Nothing prevents them from changing sides. It is also easy to make Lucita a Sabbat in the card game. Consistent with the WoD reality, if she becomes Sabbat, she is just plain Lasombra. -- John Whelan

> It is also easy to make Lucita a Sabbat in the card game. Consistent with the > WoD reality, if she becomes Sabbat, she is just plain Lasombra. Easy or straightforward? AFAIK, there aren't any cards that say "This vampire is now Sabbat." She can't Clan Impersonate to Lasombra to do it; she didn't *change* clans, so she wouldn't *change* sect. (I think) If you Derange her, she isn't "just plain Lasombra," she's "just plain !Malk," and if she removes it, she'd revert to card text, I assume. About all I can see is to Clan Impersonate to something, and then Clan Impersonate again to Lasombra. But, does that even work? Name: Clan Impersonation Cardtype: Action Cost: 2 blood Requires a ready vampire. +1 stealth action. Choose a clan when this card is played. Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire is considered to be of the chosen clan instead of his or her original clan (if any). All options available to the chosen clan are now open to the acting vampire. This card may be burned by the vampire as an action. What happens if Lucita Clan Impersonates to, say, Ventrue (she's changing clans, but keeping with purple =). She is now "considered to be a member of the" Ventrue, "instead of" the Lasombra. She's now Camarilla, too. Now, *without* burning the first CI, she plays CI again (next turn, if there's NRA), choosing Lasombra. By card text, she's now "considered to be a member of" the Lasombra "instead of her ORIGINAL clan." Well, her "original clan" is Lasombra. Or is it Ventrue? Also, to really muck it up, BOTH cards remain (by card text) on Lucita. Do they both take effect? Is she just playing both sides, and pretending to be allied to both, and having "all options available" of both clans available to her? Or does the most recent effect (becoming Lasombra) override the previous action (being Ventrue). The wording is tricky, because she doesn't ever actually *change* clans, by card text. There is the "obvious intent" answer, but I'm curious what the "legal" answer is. Scott? Oh, and back to the original question? If she does this, is she considered Sabbat? (and only Sabbat? =) [ quoted text not captured ]

Pat Ricochet wrote: > > > It is also easy to make Lucita a Sabbat in the card game. Consistent with the > > WoD reality, if she becomes Sabbat, she is just plain Lasombra. > > Easy or straightforward? AFAIK, there aren't any cards that say "This > vampire is now Sabbat." She can't Clan Impersonate to Lasombra to do it; > she didn't *change* clans, so she wouldn't *change* sect. (I think) Correct. > If you Derange her, she isn't "just plain Lasombra," she's "just plain > !Malk," and if she removes it, she'd revert to card text, I assume. No. She'd change clans to Lasombra, and therefore her sect would be (remain) Sabbat. > About all I can see is to Clan Impersonate to something, and then Clan > Impersonate again to Lasombra. That would also work. She could also Clan Impersonate and then burn the CI. > What happens if Lucita Clan Impersonates to, say, Ventrue (she's > changing clans, but keeping with purple =). She is now "considered to be a > member of the" Ventrue, "instead of" the Lasombra. She's now Camarilla, > too. Right. > Now, *without* burning the first CI, she plays CI again (next turn, if > there's NRA), choosing Lasombra. By card text, she's now "considered to be > a member of" the Lasombra "instead of her ORIGINAL clan." Well, her > "original clan" is Lasombra. Or is it Ventrue? Mostly this is "who cares?" :-). But the card text is referring to Ventrue. > Also, to really muck it up, BOTH cards remain (by card text) on Lucita. > Do they both take effect? Is she just playing both sides, and pretending to > be allied to both, and having "all options available" of both clans > available to her? Or does the most recent effect (becoming Lasombra) > override the previous action (being Ventrue). Most recent applies. [LSJ 28-MAR-2000] > The wording is tricky, because she doesn't ever actually *change* clans, > by card text. There is the "obvious intent" answer, but I'm curious what > the "legal" answer is. Scott? If she's one clan and then becomes another, that's changing clans. > Oh, and back to the original question? If she does this, is she > considered Sabbat? (and only Sabbat? =) Yes. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

>>> (I really, really, really want the number of sets per year to slow down. >>> The game needs time to re-adjust.) >> >> I agree. And our bank accounts need time to re-adjust as well! =) > > Hear, hear. If White Wolf could take anything from their fan base, it >should be the request to slow down the expansions. V:TES is far more >complicated than the typical CCG, and takes more time to digest. Say, an >8-month cycle would do us a LOT, LOT, LOT better than a 6-month cycle. I'd agree that V:TES is one of the more complicated CCGs, at least from a deck construction angle. However, it seems to me that a lot of the reason it takes longer for players to digest new cards is simply not being used to having new card to digest. When Bloodlines comes out, my expectation is that a lot of players will go "whoa, new cards again, I gotta stop screwing around and get up to speed". The focus has been on trying to do something innovative with existing cards. Focus will likely shift to trying to abuse new cards once it becomes normal to have new cards.

Do you folks think that Bloodlines pre-release draft tournaments will be feasible? Or do you think the vampires and disciplines be too fragmentary to build into decks without cards from other sets?

>> Hear, hear. If White Wolf could take anything from their fan base, it >> should be the request to slow down the expansions. V:TES is far more >> complicated than the typical CCG, and takes more time to digest. Say, an >> 8-month cycle would do us a LOT, LOT, LOT better than a 6-month cycle. > > I'd agree that V:TES is one of the more complicated CCGs, at least from a deck > construction angle. However, it seems to me that a lot of the reason it takes > longer for players to digest new cards is simply not being used to having new > card to digest. Temptation of Greater Power has been around a loooong time, while new sets WERE still being made. Didn't really hit the tournament scene till, what, a year or two ago? Case studies aside, I somewhat disagree. I concur that *some* of the reason players take longer to digest new cards is that they had the time (before now). But I wouldn't say "most of," and I wouldn't even say "a lot of." If you want to back that statement up, I'll be happy to debate it, but other than that, we'll have to agree to disagree. > When Bloodlines comes out, my expectation is that a lot of players will go > "whoa, new cards again, I gotta stop screwing around and get up to speed". You mean, take up the rabid Magic-player munchkin banner of trying to win with cards before they get errata'd and banned? > The > focus has been on trying to do something innovative with existing cards. > Focus > will likely shift to trying to abuse new cards once it becomes normal to have > new cards. Abuse? Well, big difference being that V:TES isn't designed to HAVE broken, highly abuseable cards, and Sabbat War and Final Nights have shown WW and LSJ to be capable of doing it right. (Unlike, say, the Ancient Hearts team, which I wonder if they even listened to their playtesters, with RTI and Elisabetta Romano in one set.) If playing interesting decks and tweaking and playing kooky combos to plumb the depths of the game looking for a clever and original and effective deck is "screwing around," then, yes, I'd rather HAVE time between sets and "screw around," rather than "focusing on abusing new cards," and thereby, forgetting about the old cards. Ok, but what about WW making money? Monetarily, I'm not going to spend more than X amount of money on cards every year; I'm not going to buy N boxes of every set that WW produces. They get my money one way or the other, really. But they can keep their costs down by producing less sets per year, and increase the quality of their product by having more time to produce each set, and not having to rush it to the market (avoiding gotchas like the FN typos, etc.) Now, that's just me, but I don't think I'm the only one who has a finite amount of money for entertainment, but an uncountable craving for gameplay. (If the average buyer has a near-infinte amount of money, but a finite want of gameplay, then they want N boxes of each set that's released, and no more. I don't think this is a good depiction of the target market, so rapid-release isn't the way to go.) If the sets come out fast enough that I have to cough up more money than I was before just to keep up with the Jonses, then I'll quit buying, and probably quit playing. Either way, as a consumer or as a player, I think this 6-month cycle is bad. Gimme 8 months; time to try ideas, and time to save money. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Pat Ricochet" <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message news:B7D665FA.776E%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu... > >> Hear, hear. If White Wolf could take anything from their fan base, it > >> should be the request to slow down the expansions. V:TES is far more > >> complicated than the typical CCG, and takes more time to digest. Say, an > >> 8-month cycle would do us a LOT, LOT, LOT better than a 6-month cycle. [clip] > Either way, as a consumer or as a player, I think this 6-month cycle is > bad. Gimme 8 months; time to try ideas, and time to save money. I can't swear to it 'cause I don't have the email anymore but I'm pretty sure that Steve Wieck said recently that they were shifting to an 8-month cycle. -Robert -- Robert Goudie Chairman, V:EKN rob...@vtesinla.org

Matt Latham <mla...@diamondtoolmfg.com> wrote: : "Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message : news:20010924164245...@mb-md.aol.com... :> >shame that it depends upon the power-rare Derange and so is not :> >available to commoners. : Noal McDonald, Prince of Detroit, has a nifty Derange deck with 12 of the : suckers. He traded heavily for them, which anyone can do. You can get a : booster box of Jyhad for $10. In that box you'll probably get a freak drive : and one other big rare like a Form of Mist or Flesh of Marble or such... : maybe even a Temptation of Greater Power. You could probably trade each of : those for two deranges, like Noal did. Well, maybe not that easy. Here in Finland is only one place, as far as I know, that got Jyhad. Starters only and they cost about 9 USD a piece. Potomac box price is 33 USD. Minimum order 100 USD, shipping rates to Finland start from 16.50 USD (for 1 lbs.). Add taxes, which are added to the whole price of the packet, including postage and shipping (very rough estimation would be about 20%). I know there are other places, possibly cheaper than Potomac, but this is just a small reminder, that it isn't that cheap for everyone and everywhere. I've been drooling for Deranges for a long time... And propably will be out of saliva before I can even see the first Derange :( I have even difficulties getting Confusions, because here where I live no one has got any Sabbat cards. Well that might be easy to trade in Succubus Club or otheer places... : You can generally make anything you want if you are patient enough. Whether : the current tournament scene encourages such creativity or discourages it is : a different discussion all together. Well I guess I have to be patient to get my 8-12 Deranges. And sorry about the rant :) Cheers, Jarkko : Matt [ quoted text not captured ]

----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Nudd <mi...@vekn.org.uk> Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 5:48 AM Subject: Re: Bloodlines page up. > mgre...@bcuc.ac.uk (mgreen02) wrote in message news:<a346f9cb.0109...@posting.google.com>... > > For all to see at: > > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_Bloodlines.html > > > > I fear we will have to label > Bloodlines an 'advanced' set, specifying non-Bloodlines demos and > intro games to avoid making things more confusing for observers and > newcomers. I think you're right! Magic (and L5R tried to adopt this too) has a "basic" set with regular mechanics and puts all the new mechanics in expansion packs. For instance, there is no trample is the basic Magic set right now. It looks like Sabbat War and the new Camarilla will be basic sets, because those are sets that new players will need to get the majority of their cards from (even if they do play bloodline clans they will need dom, for, pot, aus, pre, etc... cards) and FN and Bloodlines will be advanced player sets. It looks like WW takes the existing player base into major consideration whenever they make decisions about VtES. In other words, they are thinking "what would the players who have been true to the game for the past five or six years" would want, and give less consideration into bringing new players into the game. Steve didn't pick up VtES as much to get new players and make profit as much as rewarding players who have been true to this game with cards that were much underprinted. I think WW has done a great job in both designing for the old players and also the great precons to help with new players. > > One additional concern I have from an RPG purist point of view is the > number of things that appear to have been left out of the Bloodlines > set. If this card set is supposed to be a catchall for all the other > disparate vampiric elements of the WoD, then why were Assamite > antitribu, Ravnos antitribu and Serpents of the Light not included? > And also Lasombra antitribu, and non-Sabbat Tzimisce? I suspect there > will be no sect card text referring to the Black Hand or the Inconnu > either? If these elements are not to be included in this or future > cardsets then why not? It all seems a bit slapdash and half-hearted to > me. (Obviously I have not been privy to the playtest info, nor WW's > future release schedule. Can Steve, Todd or LSJ address my fears?) > > Someone at my store has a theory that Gangrel will be out of Cam by Cam edition and replaced by the !Assamites, which he says is what happened in the actual storyline (I knew that the Gangrel had left Cam, but I hadn't know that they were replaced by the Assamites!). Certainly that Cam Assamite from FN could be seen as a foreshadow to this. Imagine an Assamite Justicar, and Assamites calling Archon and Anathema votes! Poor poor Sabbat! BH SPOILER From what I've read, the BH are all dead and disbanded (Book of Storyteller's Secrets revised, as well as Ends of Empire and KoTE). Certainly if there are True Brujah and Nagaraja vampires in Bloodlines, they are probably former members of the BH and BH no more! The BH was destroyed when Enoch in the Underworld was destroyed by a relic Nuke bomb. So the great library of the True Brujah in Enoch are no more sob sob. I wonder if True Brujah can go back in time in the Underworld? Anyway, also according to the books the BH was greatly discouraged when the Ravnos Methuselah awoke and completely ignored them. Ancient vampires with existential crises! So BH is most likely dead in the storyline. But we'll always wonder who the Ahrilu truly were... Cheers, Janus, childe of Chronus 5th Generation True Brujah AKA Asahina Daisan, Crane Seer > Regards, > > Mike Nudd > VEKN Prince of London

Andrew S. Davidson wrote: > Delicate equilibrium? The last time I looked at this, the Ventrue > were way out in front of the other clans (whose performance was far > from uniform). Looking at the decks in the final of this weekend's EC > championship, they include... Looking at the decks in the finals of the North American Championship, they include exactly zero decks with Ventrue. It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their lack of stealth and offensive combat cards. Their only saving graces right now are Arika and Hostile Takeover. - Ben Peal, Prince of Boston fu...@mindstorm.com

Halcyan 2 wrote: > I'm sure that even now White Wolf is more than a bit embarrassed with WotC's > Blood Brother Ambush and Gargoyle Slave, both of which seem to be making less > and less sense especially with Bloodlines now. I suspect that White Wolf is ecstatic that the game has succeeded enough that such a problem could be deemed important. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

"Ben Peal" <fu...@optical.mindstorm.com> wrote in message news:bf72a12e.01092...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] *blink* *blink* Troll? If not, let me run you across the list of strategies the Ventrue use: 1)Vote: obviously 2)Combat: a lot have potence + fortitude + Island of Yaros 3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn 4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-) strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used: 1) S&B: Bounce and bloat 2) Combat: presence for CE, Dominate for Obedience and Fortitude for damage prevention 3) Vote: more votes + presence 4) intercept: Freak drive, Kiss of Ra, Superior Majesty, Fortitude unblockable actions, Creepshow Casino.

>If the sets come out fast enough that I have to cough up more money than >I was before just to keep up with the Jonses, then I'll quit buying, and >probably quit playing. Exactly. Which is precisely the reason why I quit "that other game." A junior high-schooler just doesn't have the financial resources (even with allowance!) to keep up at the pace WotC ran the game. And since each new expansion had better, more powerful cards, it quickly became a lesson in futility. In hindsight, I probably should have done what some of my friends did and sold my cards at the time (I would have made a killing). But, sentimental bastard that I am, I've kept all of my cards. (In fact, I was so sentimental that I bought and kept my brother's cards when *he* quit the game...). (OT) So, back in the day when M:tG cards were actually worth something (and before ultra-cheap eBay auctions were available), I was proud enough to own an Unlimited Illusionary Mask, a Legends Palladia Mors (boy was I pissed with the reprints in Chronicles!), 3 Vesuvan Doppelgangers, and one or two of each of the dual lands. And of course, my prize piece was my collection of 23 or so Savannah Lions! (boy are they cute!). And I also had like 4 Savannahs for the Savannah Lions to live on, but that's a different story... ;) Halcyan 2

Jeroen Rombouts: > Ben Peal wrote: > > It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans > > due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their lack > > of stealth and offensive combat cards. Their only saving graces right > > now are Arika and Hostile Takeover. > > *blink* *blink* Troll? I know the opinion isn't a popular one, and knew it'd get someone's attention. ;) > If not, let me run you across the list of strategies the Ventrue use: > > 1)Vote: obviously Light intercept stops it, and light intercept is easy to include in most any deck. > 2)Combat: a lot have potence + fortitude + Island of Yaros 6 Ventrue have Potence and Fortitude, but only 1 of them has superior Potence (Helena Casimir, a 9-cap), and the Island of Yiaros isn't much help when half of those 6 vampires are Primogen, and another doesn't even have a title. Don't get me wrong...Island of Yiaros is cool, but nobody's gonna be fearing the one strike for +2 strength per turn. > 3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn Bonding does not make them into real stealth-bleeders. 1 stealth is not enough. Again, light intercept is easy to include in a deck, and it stops Bonding bleeds cold. Day Op's and Daring the Dawn are neat and all, but you're just asking to get your unblockable bleeds bounced to your grand-prey. Responsible stealth-bleeders use Change of Target, and you can't play that card when you can't be blocked. > 4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-) They do get 2nd Trads, which are obviously quite handy. However, intercept alone is not a winning strategy, and +2 intercept only covers so much. > strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used: > > 1) S&B: Bounce and bloat Yeah, the bouncing works great. The bloat doesn't work when you're only doing it at 1 stealth. > 2) Combat: presence for CE, Dominate for Obedience and Fortitude for damage > prevention Yup. Fight decks certainly have their work cut out for them, mostly because of the Fortitude. > 3) Vote: more votes + presence What good does that Presence do you when you can't get the political action to succeed in the first place? > 4) intercept: Freak drive, Kiss of Ra, Superior Majesty, Fortitude > unblockable actions, Creepshow Casino. The counter to Freak Drive and superior Majesty being untap effects. Don't tell me you haven't seen those used in a heavy intercept deck. Kiss of Ra is handy, but leaves you heavily dependent on the metagame. Creepshow Casino is also handy, but it isn't a magic bullet. What you didn't mention was Dawn Operation + damage prevention. I've been playing around with this one a bit lately, with mixed results. It seems that people are usually inclined to just block the action anyway, as rescuing a vampire from torpor seems less painful than whatever vote I have in mind. Has anyone had different results? Bruise 'n vote has been in my head lately. Also, don't forget Seduction, though the Giovanni play that game better than the Ventrue. Call of the Hungry Dead is soooo sweeeeet... At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." As such, despite the heavy payload their actions have, they don't have the delivery systems required for them. You're either hoping that Arika comes to the rescue (in which case, just play an Inner Circle Member deck) or you're hoping the Hostile Takeovers pay off. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 26 Sep 2001 23:41:11 -0700, Ben Peal wrote: > At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked > the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer > is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." As > such, despite the heavy payload their actions have, they don't have > the delivery systems required for them. That's theory - the winning deck archive indicated that the Ventrue won more tournaments than any other clan and by no small margin. Your point may be valid but it could be like baseball where "big hitters strike out a lot". Andrew

Ventrue have 3 of the best disciplines ever, and that's why they can win, period ! I think Fortitude / Dominate rules unchallenged, except maybe by Obf / Dom, but then your vampires can die... With For, they don't ! -- Orpheus http://cypheranima.free.fr news://news.zoo-logique.org/VTES-francophone audio...@yahoogroups.com "Andrew S. Davidson" <a...@csi.com> a écrit dans le message news: 227DA5F43104B503.3A697134...@lp.airnews.net... [ quoted text not captured ]

>===== Original Message From fu...@optical.mindstorm.com (Ben Peal) ===== >Jeroen Rombouts: >> Ben Peal wrote: >> > It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans >> > due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their lack >> > of stealth and offensive combat cards. Their only saving graces right >> > now are Arika and Hostile Takeover. >> >> *blink* *blink* Troll? > > I know the opinion isn't a popular one, and knew it'd get someone's > attention. ;) Hmmnnn this IS interesting as if I recall correctly the ventrue won the most tournaments and their discipline combination makes tem look like the strongest clan in the game...You got my attention:) >> If not, let me run you across the list of strategies the Ventrue use: >> >> 1)Vote: obviously > > Light intercept stops it, and light intercept is easy to include in > most any deck. Right you are. Intercept stops votes dead cold. But intercept by itself does not oust. Votes do, as does plain simple non stealth bleed. And that is where Seduction comes in...more of that later. > >> 2)Combat: a lot have potence + fortitude + Island of Yaros > > 6 Ventrue have Potence and Fortitude, but only 1 of them has superior > Potence (Helena Casimir, a 9-cap), and the Island of Yiaros isn't much > help when half of those 6 vampires are Primogen, and another doesn't > even have a title. Don't get me wrong...Island of Yiaros is cool, but > nobody's gonna be fearing the one strike for +2 strength per turn. Yup, no cool combat for the Ventrue..but not all clans should be able to do all well. The Nosferatu have no discipline bleed actions, are they a weak clan? >> 3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn > > Bonding does not make them into real stealth-bleeders. 1 stealth > is not enough. Again, light intercept is easy to include in a deck, > and it stops Bonding bleeds cold. i think that with all of these Tzimisces running around you either have to use a whole lot of stealth, or no stealth at all. Again seduction is your card here but as you state below Change of target is pretty usefull too. > Day Op's and Daring the Dawn are neat and all, but you're just asking > to get your unblockable bleeds bounced to your grand-prey. Responsible > stealth-bleeders use Change of Target, and you can't play that card > when you can't be blocked. > >> 4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-) > > They do get 2nd Trads, which are obviously quite handy. However, > intercept alone is not a winning strategy, and +2 intercept only > covers so much. No intercept. neither do the Brujah, Assamites, City !Gangrel or the Followers of Set. Does this make the clans bad?? No. The Ventrue can get 2 intercept from their princes, and if you want the Ventrue to have intercept you'll have to go for other permanents. But no intercept capability can hurt in the long run... >> strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used: >> >> 1) S&B: Bounce and bloat > > Yeah, the bouncing works great. The bloat doesn't work when you're only > doing it at 1 stealth. True. But you'll have to be creative with this, or use a silver tongue. I have found that when playing ventrue most people will not block the fifth tradition, but wait for the really damaging vote/bleed...Moreover who want's to block that 5th anyway?? Not your prey, hell he want me to bloat like crazy so that i will not be ousted... > >> 2) Combat: presence for CE, Dominate for Obedience and Fortitude for damage >> prevention > > Yup. Fight decks certainly have their work cut out for them, mostly > because of the Fortitude. >> 3) Vote: more votes + presence > > What good does that Presence do you when you can't get the political > action to succeed in the first place? Right this is where the ventrue are weakest. And when they do get blocked they cannot retaliate in combat. Again Seduction and the sleeping mind at inferior will help out as will change of target, kiss of Ra etc.. If your votes get blocked..so be it, live with it or add some stealth to your ventrue deck. >> 4) intercept: Freak drive, Kiss of Ra, Superior Majesty, Fortitude >> unblockable actions, Creepshow Casino. > > The counter to Freak Drive and superior Majesty being untap effects. > Don't tell me you haven't seen those used in a heavy intercept deck. true, but the ventrue do have a great one shot-kill ability with their disciplines. And it speeds up the deck FAST. With majesty and FD you are able to do more actions, and the untap will run out eventually. I tend to simply bleed, have them wake and either CoT, Majesty or FD. Bleed with te next vampire. If they do not block, slap down the conditioning and make them think again about not blocking. > Kiss of Ra is handy, but leaves you heavily dependent on the metagame. > > Creepshow Casino is also handy, but it isn't a magic bullet. > > What you didn't mention was Dawn Operation + damage prevention. > I've been playing around with this one a bit lately, with mixed > results. It seems that people are usually inclined to just block > the action anyway, as rescuing a vampire from torpor seems less > painful than whatever vote I have in mind. Has anyone had different > results? Bruise 'n vote has been in my head lately. Better go with the lasombra then i would suggest, or the EuroBrujah. > Also, don't forget Seduction, though the Giovanni play that game > better than the Ventrue. Call of the Hungry Dead is soooo sweeeeet... > > At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked > the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer > is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." As > such, despite the heavy payload their actions have, they don't have > the delivery systems required for them. You're either hoping that > Arika comes to the rescue (in which case, just play an Inner Circle > Member deck) or you're hoping the Hostile Takeovers pay off. But this also goes for the Toreador and the Brujah. It all comes down to seating order and opposing decks. If they have intercept, bugger, just bleed away at zero stealth. If they do not, hey have a ball. Tim -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

"Ben Peal" <fu...@optical.mindstorm.com> wrote in message news:bf72a12e.01092...@posting.google.com... > Jeroen Rombouts: > > Ben Peal wrote: > > > It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans > > > due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their lack > > > of stealth and offensive combat cards. Their only saving graces right > > > now are Arika and Hostile Takeover. > > > > *blink* *blink* Troll? > > I know the opinion isn't a popular one, and knew it'd get someone's > attention. ;) > > > If not, let me run you across the list of strategies the Ventrue use: > > > > 1)Vote: obviously > > Light intercept stops it, and light intercept is easy to include in > most any deck. I doesn't, with all the untap you can still bleed for one at 0 stealth > > > 2)Combat: a lot have potence + fortitude + Island of Yaros > > 6 Ventrue have Potence and Fortitude, but only 1 of them has superior > Potence (Helena Casimir, a 9-cap), and the Island of Yiaros isn't much > help when half of those 6 vampires are Primogen, and another doesn't > even have a title. Don't get me wrong...Island of Yiaros is cool, but > nobody's gonna be fearing the one strike for +2 strength per turn. Trap Torn signpost + undeath strenght = 3 damage Superior Mettle Round 2 identical combat worthy enough to make a bleed and bruise deck. (Maybe add some skill cards and Hand of Conrad) > > > 3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn > > Bonding does not make them into real stealth-bleeders. 1 stealth > is not enough. Again, light intercept is easy to include in a deck, > and it stops Bonding bleeds cold. I' m guessing you're playing in a high intercept environement. Around here (at the moment, at least) most people play either with a lot of intercept or none at all. > > Day Op's and Daring the Dawn are neat and all, but you're just asking > to get your unblockable bleeds bounced to your grand-prey. Responsible > stealth-bleeders use Change of Target, and you can't play that card > when you can't be blocked. > > > 4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-) > > They do get 2nd Trads, which are obviously quite handy. However, > intercept alone is not a winning strategy, and +2 intercept only > covers so much. > > > strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used: > > > > 1) S&B: Bounce and bloat > > Yeah, the bouncing works great. The bloat doesn't work when you're only > doing it at 1 stealth. > Voter captivation works too. > > 2) Combat: presence for CE, Dominate for Obedience and Fortitude for damage > > prevention > > Yup. Fight decks certainly have their work cut out for them, mostly > because of the Fortitude. > > > 3) Vote: more votes + presence > > What good does that Presence do you when you can't get the political > action to succeed in the first place? > you can. Bleed, get blocked, untap, equip or s/t like that, get blocked, freak drive, vote. They can't keep on blocking. You 've only used one Ventrue, they had to untap 2-3 times. > > 4) intercept: Freak drive, Kiss of Ra, Superior Majesty, Fortitude > > unblockable actions, Creepshow Casino. > > The counter to Freak Drive and superior Majesty being untap effects. > Don't tell me you haven't seen those used in a heavy intercept deck. yup, but a lot of decks die when they sit next to an intercept-heavy deck. Brujah & Torries also have no stealth, so they're weak clans? > > Kiss of Ra is handy, but leaves you heavily dependent on the metagame. > > Creepshow Casino is also handy, but it isn't a magic bullet. > > What you didn't mention was Dawn Operation + damage prevention. > I've been playing around with this one a bit lately, with mixed > results. It seems that people are usually inclined to just block > the action anyway, as rescuing a vampire from torpor seems less > painful than whatever vote I have in mind. Has anyone had different > results? Bruise 'n vote has been in my head lately. Nosferatu or/and Brujah ! > > Also, don't forget Seduction, though the Giovanni play that game > better than the Ventrue. Call of the Hungry Dead is soooo sweeeeet... > > At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked > the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer > is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." Their answer should be: "hope they don't have +1 intercept every time i act and lots of untap" It's simple really, against a deck with light intercept, you keep acting on +1 stealth. Against a heavy intercept deck, do a lot of 0 stealth bleeds. Jeroen

Ben Peal wrote: > It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans > due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their lack > of stealth and offensive combat cards. Their only saving graces right > now are Arika and Hostile Takeover. > - Ben Peal, Prince of Boston > fu...@mindstorm.com You may want to start smoking a higher grade of crack. :-) Every clan has weaknesses, and the Ventrue, strong as they are, are no exception. But intercept isn't a insurmountable barrier to a clan that has Majesty and Freak Drive in its arsenal. "I bleed. You block? Majesty, I untap. I vote. You block? Immortal Grapple? Okay, I prevent the damage and Freak Drive. I Fourth Tradition..." So long as they have approximately as many untaps as you have wakes, blocking the Ventrue is a losing battle. And that's before you bring Kiss of Ra into the equation. But hey, keep arguing otherwise. Maybe you'll convince enough people to cut the contesting down for me.

fu...@optical.mindstorm.com (Ben Peal) wrote in message news:<bf72a12e.01092...@posting.google.com>... > > 4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-) > They do get 2nd Trads, which are obviously quite handy. However, > intercept alone is not a winning strategy, and +2 intercept only > covers so much. 2nd trad + locations, and if you want, an NGS. Any Camarilla clan can generate 3~4 intercept if they've got the princes/justicars in the crypt for it. > > 2) Combat: presence for CE, Dominate for Obedience and Fortitude for damage > > prevention > Yup. Fight decks certainly have their work cut out for them, mostly > because of the Fortitude. Heh. Rotschreck, and the tremere, assamites, ravnos and gangrel in general can rip through fortitude. Animalism for environmental damage, Quiteus for unpreventable damage, and Thaum for non-damage (theft + blood to water) and unpreventable (B.fury). A deck that wants to fight you doesn't have a real issue with fortitude, and if they think S:CE is a problem, all the above clans can either Psyche or Rotschreck (except those poor ravnos heh). Ventrue can't manuever well and don't strike for more than 1 generally. Fighting is going to get you killed, though the fortitude can save you a few times. > What you didn't mention was Dawn Operation + damage prevention. > I've been playing around with this one a bit lately, with mixed > results. It seems that people are usually inclined to just block > the action anyway, as rescuing a vampire from torpor seems less > painful than whatever vote I have in mind. Has anyone had different > results? Bruise 'n vote has been in my head lately. The problem with bruise and vote, or bruise and anything, is that you are ultimately going to have to bash them down. The threat of blowing up their vampires is going to let you get them down to a lot pool count, but they won't let you oust them -- better to throw a minion in the way of the final bleed/vote, than to be ousted. Generally speaking, your deck will give your prey a choice, and the choice is almost always going to be to their benefit and your detriment. So you either: A) Exterminate all or nearly all of their minions (difficult to do to 1 player, never mind half a table). B) Sit down and wait, hoping your grand prey will beat up your prey or at least put up such a strong resistance, that they're both weak and you clean up. C) lose =) > At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked > the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer > is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." As > such, despite the heavy payload their actions have, they don't have > the delivery systems required for them. Yup. They can win, so long as the intercept is all or nearly all on the right side of the table. They have an ass-easy time getting vote lock (pre., tower, and now your untitled vamp has gained you 5+ votes), and an easy time getting DOM for deflections. It's a matter of getting 5ths and votes to not be blocked, no small task. But when you do, I would dare say that they sweep up better than anyone.

[ quoted text not captured ] In the past two years worth of tournaments on the Lasombra's site, 7 of 75 tournaments were won by Ventrue decks. Only two of those decks came from America, and only within the past four months. So, Ventrue decks went more than a year without winning a (publicly posted) tournament in America. Two of the remaining five decks were by Rob Treasure, picking on the same Portsmouth group with his Hostile Takeover/Parity Shift deck. As for the Ventrue winning more tournaments than any other clan, I'm really not sure how much weight that statement has, since the trend in decks on the tournament-winning site has been discipline-based decks rather than clan-based decks. At any rate, if your local metagame typically doesn't have even light intercept, then a Ventrue deck is going to eat the tournament alive. In America, however, it's rare that you'll be able to get away with +1 stealth, as light intercept is rampant. Mike Nilson won with the Ventrue in June of this year by retrofitting Obfuscate to his vampires. [ quoted text not captured ]

Howdy Ben, fu...@optical.mindstorm.com (Ben Peal) wrote in message news:<bf72a12e.01092...@posting.google.com>... > Jeroen Rombouts: > > Ben Peal wrote: > > > It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans > > > due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their lack > > > of stealth and offensive combat cards. Their only saving graces right > > > now are Arika and Hostile Takeover. > > > > *blink* *blink* Troll? > > I know the opinion isn't a popular one, and knew it'd get someone's > attention. ;) I guess I'll bite as well, as I made a similar - though much less controversial - assertion in the first !Ventrue Newsletter. I think it's worth adding some commentary from the antitribu perspective, as, while most people would consider your comment to be troll in relation to the Camarilla Ventrue, the same people would consider it a truism when applied to their Sabbat cousins. > > If not, let me run you across the list of strategies the Ventrue use: > > > > 1)Vote: obviously > > Light intercept stops it, and light intercept is easy to include in > most any deck. This is certainly my experience with the !Ventrue so far. I remember a time, not long ago, when +1 stealth would get all sorts of things done. No more. In my last six games with !Ventrue, I've sat as predator to: a Gangrel animalism/poke interceptor, a Toreador + protean auspex/poke interceptor, a Tzimisce interceptor, and an Assamite + auspex interceptor (!?!). As if that weren't enough, my predators, while rarely interceptors per se, routinely pop media outlets and/or Mr. Winthrop and/or Sport Bikes, and often seem to have significant combat... Maybe I'm just unlucky? A corollary, however: light intercept alone is easy to include, but also easy to exhaust, assuming you have multiple minions/threatening actions. My favorite ploy is to ask to borrow my prey's Rumor Mill during my predator's turn... Any _real_ interceptor will also have lots of untap. > > 2)Combat: a lot have potence + fortitude + Island of Yaros > > 6 Ventrue have Potence and Fortitude, but only 1 of them has superior > Potence (Helena Casimir, a 9-cap), and the Island of Yiaros isn't much > help when half of those 6 vampires are Primogen, and another doesn't > even have a title. Don't get me wrong...Island of Yiaros is cool, but > nobody's gonna be fearing the one strike for +2 strength per turn. There are 3 !Ventrue who have fo/po: Vincent (fo/po, vote enhancing special), Kyle (fo/PO, Cardinal), and Lazverinus (FO/PO, +2 strength, Archbishop). This might be an interesting deck concept for the !Ventrue, though perhaps it would just degenerate into just another Lazverinuts deck. The Island of Yiaros seems pretty silly to me, even for the Cammy Ventrue; I'd be looking for Disarms. (But then I'm _already_ looking for Disarms without much luck...) > > 3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn > > Bonding does not make them into real stealth-bleeders. 1 stealth > is not enough. Again, light intercept is easy to include in a deck, > and it stops Bonding bleeds cold. Well, Dominate Kine + Bonding is +2 stealth, but thankfully it's hard to get a hold of a lot of Dominate Kine... And again, you troll for intercept with the first (couple actions) if you're a Camarilla Ventrue. After all, you're just going to S:CE and untap and take the action you really wanted to accomplish... This seems to me to be the biggest advantage that the Camarilla Ventrue have over the Sabbat Ventrue: Majesty. (The second biggest advantage, or perhaps it's a tie, being the 2nd and 5th Traditions.) > Day Op's and Daring the Dawn are neat and all, but you're just asking > to get your unblockable bleeds bounced to your grand-prey. Responsible > stealth-bleeders use Change of Target, and you can't play that card > when you can't be blocked. Bingo. Which is where the !Ventrue actually have an advantage, as you will hopefully see when I get my next Newsletter out. > > 4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-) > > They do get 2nd Trads, which are obviously quite handy. However, > intercept alone is not a winning strategy, and +2 intercept only > covers so much. I find the Ventrue to be quite good at the intercept part of intercept. Majesty and 2nd Trads both provide untap, which is arguably more important than intercept to an interceptor. And, of course, the 2nds provide intercept as well. The reasons you don't see Ventrue interceptors are 1) intercept + prevent/do nothing is a weak strategy (as you point out), and 2) they do so many other things better. > > strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used: > > > > 1) S&B: Bounce and bloat > > Yeah, the bouncing works great. The bloat doesn't work when you're only > doing it at 1 stealth. Actually, the bouncing locally has really rolled off. I keep sitting between decks that can't bleed for more than 1 except maybe once or twice. I've been discarding Deflection more than I've been using it. I think this is due both to the rise of combat and to the threat of Perfect Clarity. I'd loooove to see a stealth bleeder as my predator. As you say though, the bloat at zero (Recruiting Party) or +1 stealth has been getting blocked every frickin' time, even Boons for 2, by both prey and predator. > > 2) Combat: presence for CE, Dominate for Obedience and Fortitude for damage > > prevention > > Yup. Fight decks certainly have their work cut out for them, mostly > because of the Fortitude. Without Majesty, I've been struggling to stay afloat against combat. If I include too much prevent, I've no chance of doing anything else, and inevitably won't need it. Too little, and I never have it in hand when I get caught. > > 3) Vote: more votes + presence > > What good does that Presence do you when you can't get the political > action to succeed in the first place? To be fair, Jeroen was talking about defending against voting. This can be accomplished by having votes yourself, presence, or dominate, all of which the Ventrue have, and most of which the !Ventrue now have, though the latter were pretty short on votes for quite some time. > > 4) intercept: Freak drive, Kiss of Ra, Superior Majesty, Fortitude > > unblockable actions, Creepshow Casino. > > The counter to Freak Drive and superior Majesty being untap effects. > Don't tell me you haven't seen those used in a heavy intercept deck. Right. But for non-dedicated, casual to medium intercept, these sure help. > Kiss of Ra is handy, but leaves you heavily dependent on the metagame. The best thing possible for dealing with heavy intercept, as long as it doesn't include fortitude, which is most of them. It's threat value is great, unless it's not, as you point out. > Creepshow Casino is also handy, but it isn't a magic bullet. It's useless against dedicated intercept. +2 stealth is just an excuse to cycle another card or a reason to use the superior version of Enhanced Senses. It's a good supplement to casual to medium, though. Somehow I never seem to draw mine... > What you didn't mention was Dawn Operation + damage prevention. > I've been playing around with this one a bit lately, with mixed > results. It seems that people are usually inclined to just block > the action anyway, as rescuing a vampire from torpor seems less > painful than whatever vote I have in mind. Has anyone had different > results? Bruise 'n vote has been in my head lately. There's an awful lot of ways to block without combat, S:CE, maneuver, dodge, or prevent one, and there are increasingly large amounts of ways to make strikes unpreventable in return... I wouldn't generally expect Dawn Ops to be that threatening to any deck that can handle light combat, which is _all_ decks these days. > Also, don't forget Seduction, though the Giovanni play that game > better than the Ventrue. Call of the Hungry Dead is soooo sweeeeet... Right, thought this is not terribly strong in a vote deck, as your predator might decide to block things as well... > At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked > the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer > is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." As > such, despite the heavy payload their actions have, they don't have > the delivery systems required for them. You're either hoping that > Arika comes to the rescue (in which case, just play an Inner Circle > Member deck) or you're hoping the Hostile Takeovers pay off. Far too true, and far more true for !Ventrue. (My first outing as a !Ventrue, BTW, which was one of the two so far that _wasn't_ as predator to intercept, was as prey to a Hostile Takeover deck that just raped me, especially as I wasn't drawing any of the light intercept I was packing. I have also sat as prey to an ineffective Ventrue for whom Arika eventually came to the rescue as well - in the game with the Toreador interceptor as prey...) Of course, I've found that even +2/+3 stealth isn't enough (see future deck listings in the Newsletter for how), which is why I'm beginning to think that I'm just plain cursed... Hope that helps, Alex

"Shaun McIsaac" <smci...@onesourcecorp.com> a écrit dans le message news: 8f507d2e.01092...@posting.google.com... > fu...@optical.mindstorm.com (Ben Peal) wrote in message news:<bf72a12e.01092...@posting.google.com>... > A deck that > wants to fight you doesn't have a real issue with fortitude, and if > they think S:CE is a problem, all the above clans can either Psyche or > Rotschreck (except those poor ravnos heh) "Before range is chosen i'll fetch a cool weapon in my library -look, a flamethrower =) " "Close range ? I'll song in the dark for you" "Close range ? hands for 1, with wolf claws -yes, lotsa Ravnos have protean nowadays..." "close range ? Burning wrath ! -yes, lotsa Ravnos have potence nowadays..." now who is unable to rotschreck ?? reyda

Tim Eijpe <tim....@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message news:<3BB8...@MailAndNews.com>... > >===== Original Message From fu...@optical.mindstorm.com (Ben Peal) ===== > >Jeroen Rombouts: > >> 1)Vote: obviously > > Light intercept stops it, and light intercept is easy to include in > > most any deck. > Right you are. Intercept stops votes dead cold. But intercept by itself does > not oust. Votes do, as does plain simple non stealth bleed. And that is > where Seduction comes in...more of that later. Non stealth bleed, even with seduction, is pretty unlikely to be a serious threat. Just block. The generally expensive (playable) ventrue are unlikely to signficantly outnumber their prey, esp. since the ventrue's predator may be attack the ventrue pool with means that are more difficult to stop. > Yup, no cool combat for the Ventrue..but not all clans should be able to do > all well. The Nosferatu have no discipline bleed actions, are they a weak > clan? Low caps + obf/OBF + laptops + hacks. Who needs disciplines? > >> 3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn > > Bonding does not make them into real stealth-bleeders. 1 stealth > > is not enough. Again, light intercept is easy to include in a deck, > > and it stops Bonding bleeds cold. > > i think that with all of these Tzimisces running around you either have to > use a whole lot of stealth, or no stealth at all. Again seduction is your card > here but as you state below Change of target is pretty usefull too. The other dom clans are all better at doing seduction based bleed... even the beleaguered Tremere. > >> 4) Intercept: This they cannot do. What an awfull clan :-) > > They do get 2nd Trads, which are obviously quite handy. However, > > intercept alone is not a winning strategy, and +2 intercept only > > covers so much. > No intercept. neither do the Brujah, Assamites, City !Gangrel or the > Followers of Set. Assamites have aus as a minor discipline. Not being able to generate +1 intercept is pretty bad, though they can 2nd. > >> strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used: > >> 1) S&B: Bounce and bloat > > Yeah, the bouncing works great. The bloat doesn't work when you're only > > doing it at 1 stealth. > True. But you'll have to be creative with this, or use a silver tongue. I > have > found that when playing ventrue most people will not block the fifth > tradition, but wait for the really damaging vote/bleed...Moreover who want's > to block that 5th anyway?? Not your prey, hell he want me to bloat like > crazy > so that i will not be ousted... Wtf? Your prey wants to block, so that you cannot tap and get more vamps to whack him with. Who cares if you're ousted? He won't get your VP if hes dead b.c he let his predator go ape shit with bloat. Your predator has to block to prevent the bloat from making you impossible to oust. Btw, this is one of the reasons intercept can be so crucial. You lose for free when someone sets up a dumb combo like bloat. > true, but the ventrue do have a great one shot-kill ability with their > disciplines. And it speeds up the deck FAST. With majesty and FD you are > able > to do more actions, and the untap will run out eventually. I tend to simply > bleed, have them wake and either CoT, Majesty or FD. Bleed with te next > vampire. If they do not block, slap down the conditioning and make them > think > again about not blocking. No real reason for them not be able to block, unless they're going heavily offensive and tapping out. You can seduce one and even then, the seduced vamp still has the ability to bounce/TC. > But this also goes for the Toreador and the Brujah. It all comes down to > seating order and opposing decks. If they have intercept, bugger, just bleed > away at zero stealth. If they do not, hey have a ball. Too easy to deal with, and both the tories and the brujah are better fighters in the case of a block. You mention Seduction too much, when the other clans make better use of it (not just giovanni, though that is even worse). If A is better than B, why play B at all? The Ventrue can do multi things (bleed, vote, bloat...) but its rare that you'll have room enough in a deck to do more than a (very) few things well. And doing it at 1 stealth doesn't count as doing anything particularly well.

Shaun McIsaac wrote in message: > Ben Peal wrote: > > At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked > > the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer > > is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." As > > such, despite the heavy payload their actions have, they don't have > > the delivery systems required for them. > > Yup. They can win, so long as the intercept is all or nearly all on > the right side of the table. They have an ass-easy time getting vote > lock (pre., tower, and now your untitled vamp has gained you 5+ > votes), and an easy time getting DOM for deflections. It's a matter > of getting 5ths and votes to not be blocked, no small task. But when > you do, I would dare say that they sweep up better than anyone. Oh, sure. Like I said, they carry a very heavy payload, and when they're actually able to deliver it, it's frightening. In terms of raw payload, however, nothing tops weenie Dominate bleed. [ quoted text not captured ]

Jeroen Rombouts: > Ben Peal wrote: > > Jeroen Rombouts wrote: > > > If not, let me run you across the list of strategies the Ventrue use: > > > > > > 1)Vote: obviously > > > > Light intercept stops it, and light intercept is easy to include in > > most any deck. > > I doesn't, with all the untap you can still bleed for one at 0 stealth Defensively, you can untap and block at 0 intercept. > > > 2)Combat: a lot have potence + fortitude + Island of Yaros > > > > 6 Ventrue have Potence and Fortitude, but only 1 of them has superior > > Potence (Helena Casimir, a 9-cap), and the Island of Yiaros isn't much > > help when half of those 6 vampires are Primogen, and another doesn't > > even have a title. Don't get me wrong...Island of Yiaros is cool, but > > nobody's gonna be fearing the one strike for +2 strength per turn. > > Trap > Torn signpost + undeath strenght = 3 damage > Superior Mettle > Round 2 identical How do you manage to draw 3 combat cards each round of combat? Never mind that S:CE stops it cold, and Carrion Crows/Aid From Bats decks will slaughter it. > > > 3)S&B: Bonding, Day Op's, Daring the dawn > > > > Bonding does not make them into real stealth-bleeders. 1 stealth > > is not enough. Again, light intercept is easy to include in a deck, > > and it stops Bonding bleeds cold. > > I' m guessing you're playing in a high intercept environement. Around here > (at the moment, at least) most people play either with a lot of intercept or > none at all. My environment has included most of the eastern seaboard of the US, as well as the wide variety of players at GenCon 2001. The trait I find most consistent among American players is the very typical use of at least light intercept. It's rare for them to not use any intercept at all. Why? Because we got sick of Ventrue decks and developed strategies against them. Now we don't see them anywhere nearly as often. Case in point: Prior to Mike Nilson's winning Ventrue deck in June 2001, you have to go back as far as October 1999 to find a winning Ventrue deck in America on the Lasombra's site. All it took was the simple and generally useful strategy of putting a little bit of intercept in your deck. > > > strategies against wich the Ventrue can be used: > > > > > > 1) S&B: Bounce and bloat > > > > Yeah, the bouncing works great. The bloat doesn't work when you're only > > doing it at 1 stealth. > > Voter captivation works too. Voting is also at 1 stealth, which we've already deemed inadequate. > > > 3) Vote: more votes + presence > > > > What good does that Presence do you when you can't get the political > > action to succeed in the first place? > > you can. Bleed, get blocked, untap, equip or s/t like that, get blocked, > freak drive, vote. They can't keep on blocking. You 've only used one > Ventrue, they had to untap 2-3 times. You've had to play a card to untap each time. The defender has had to play a card to untap each time, unless he's reduced a bleed (Telepathic Counter, Ecstasy, etc.) or Deflected a bleed. Not to mention that you're assuming that you haven't been sent to torpor after being blocked. > > > 4) intercept: Freak drive, Kiss of Ra, Superior Majesty, Fortitude > > > unblockable actions, Creepshow Casino. > > > > The counter to Freak Drive and superior Majesty being untap effects. > > Don't tell me you haven't seen those used in a heavy intercept deck. > > yup, but a lot of decks die when they sit next to an intercept-heavy deck. > Brujah & Torries also have no stealth, so they're weak clans? Ah, but they (the Brujah especially) have something similar to stealth: offensive combat disciplines. > > At any rate, the bottom line with the Ventrue is that when asked > > the question, "How are you going to oust your prey?", their answer > > is all too often, "Uh...hope they don't have +1 intercept." > > Their answer should be: "hope they don't have +1 intercept every time i act > and lots of untap" It's simple really, against a deck with light intercept, > you keep acting on +1 stealth. Against a heavy intercept deck, do a lot of 0 > stealth bleeds. Hoping they don't have +1 intercept and even a mild amount of untap is subjecting yourself completely to the mercy of the metagame. A good deck designer should do better than that. [ quoted text not captured ]

Emmit Svenson wrote in message: > Ben Peal wrote: > > It's my opinion that Ventrue are presently one of the weakest clans > > due to the difficulties they face in taking actions, due to their lack > > of stealth and offensive combat cards. > > You may want to start smoking a higher grade of crack. :-) I also don't think Archon Investigation is very good. ;) > Every clan has weaknesses, and the Ventrue, strong as they are, are no > exception. But intercept isn't a insurmountable barrier to a clan that > has Majesty and Freak Drive in its arsenal. "I bleed. You block? > Majesty, I untap. I vote. You block? Immortal Grapple? Okay, I prevent > the damage and Freak Drive. I Fourth Tradition..." So long as they > have approximately as many untaps as you have wakes, blocking the > Ventrue is a losing battle. Seems to be an even battle, given the same number of vampires on both sides, and the same number of untap effects. The source of instability is then the expected lack of even distribution of these cards. Also, keep in mind that the defender isn't (or at least shouldn't be) expecting to block everything - just enough that he can buy enough time for his offense to do its job against his prey. > And that's before you bring Kiss of Ra into the equation. May the winds of the metagame blow favorably for you. ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

Orpheus wrote: > Ventrue have 3 of the best disciplines ever, and that's why they can win, > period ! Ah, but do they have 3 disciplines that complement each other well? I contend that they don't. > I think Fortitude / Dominate rules unchallenged, except maybe by Obf / Dom, > but then your vampires can die... With For, they don't ! I've found that rescuing your vampires (especially with the help of Obfuscate) is a great way to frustrate combat decks. Torpor doesn't mean dead. I rate Obf/Aus higher than For/Dom, too. [ quoted text not captured ]

Pat Ricochet wrote: > Either way, as a consumer or as a player, I think this 6-month cycle is > bad. Gimme 8 months; time to try ideas, and time to save money. > Not to go about nitpicking, but it was 7 1/2 months from SW to FN already... granted, it'll only be six from FN to BL, but FN wasn't that huge a set and BL might be smaller still, and you can't really fault WW from trying to yank out BL by December so that maybe they have a slight chance to get some of the Christmas shopping cake... Also, increasing the time between sets isn't the only way of making the game cheaper - even shifting from 1/3 each to just 30% rares, 30% uncommons and 40% commons would be a significant step in that direction - in fact, if set size were to be exactly 120 cards, just that would make all the difference between being theoretically able to complete the set with one box of boosters and there being just no way. Thomas

Ben Peal <fu...@optical.mindstorm.com> wrote in message news:bf72a12e.01092...@posting.google.com... > Orpheus wrote: > > Ventrue have 3 of the best disciplines ever, and that's why they can win, > > period ! > > Ah, but do they have 3 disciplines that complement each other well? > I contend that they don't. PRE and DOM have some overlap, but otherwise they do complement each other rather reasonably. Obviously, if they had Dom/For/Obf they'd be a lot better, just imagine a Malkavian S&B that can survive most combat and has a few more votes too. > > I think Fortitude / Dominate rules unchallenged, except maybe by Obf / Dom, > > but then your vampires can die... With For, they don't ! > > I've found that rescuing your vampires (especially with the help of > Obfuscate) is a great way to frustrate combat decks. Torpor doesn't > mean dead. No, but if they're rushing you with potence your vampire will be empty, then you have to hunt. So you just wasted two actions and 1 blood to get a vampire back, so that next turn you can do it again. You're just helping the combat decks do what they do best... :-P > I rate Obf/Aus higher than For/Dom, too. Obf/Aus will get you killed real fast around here. Few people are playing stealth right now, and there's a lot of combat. And what use is getting all your actions through (or blocking +5 stealth actions) if you can't do anything else? At least with For/Dom you can prevent them from blocking (and no amount of intercept will help them there), and when you get an action through it's likely to be a bleed for 6. And you can hold off their rushes for quite a while too. Flux

"Thomas Pichler" <tom.p...@aon.at> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3BB4418E...@aon.at... > Pat Ricochet wrote: > snip - in fact, if set size were to be exactly > 120 cards, just that would make all the difference between being theoretically able > to complete the set with one box of boosters and there being just no way. > > Thomas this information is outdated. bloddlines will contain somewhere between 160 and 180 cards from what i have heard. considering that there might as well again be R and R2 i believe you will need a minimum of 2 boxes to get 1 full set. pallando

emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote in message news:<75bdf7ed.0109...@posting.google.com>... > Do you folks think that Bloodlines pre-release draft tournaments will > be feasible? Or do you think the vampires and disciplines be too > fragmentary to build into decks without cards from other sets? i think we HAVE to have pre-release events, so we must think how to do these, given what we know about the set. i want to propose the following, mainly to the UK community but others are welcome to adopt or ignore the idea as they see fit. i suggest that someone, eg me, create Foundation decks for each clan, using say 9 vampires and a 45-card library - all commons with maybe a few proxies for useful/essential uncommons like WWEF or Forced Awakening. These Foundation decks would be well-balanced vis-a-vis one another, and fairly toolboxy. For your entry fee you get a random foundation deck and some BL boosters. You would have to bring at least 12 opaque sleeves to keep your crypt in [because some of the vampires in at least some of the decks will be Jyhad-backed]. From this you build your deck according to the usual rules, ie minimum library size 60 cards [maximum 90], minimum crypt 12 cards. i would allow people to swap the decks and also to swap cards from their boosters, probably via Bernie Bresnahan's Michigan Draft system. At the end of the tournament you could give me back the foundation deck or keep it just as you prefer, and in either case you would keep the BL cards you had bought, of course. Thus, at a stroke, i would relieve some of the burden on the bookshelves where i keep my VTES card-folders.

> > "Thomas Pichler" <tom.p...@aon.at> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:3BB4418E...@aon.at... >> Pat Ricochet wrote: >> > snip > - in fact, if set size were to be exactly >> 120 cards, just that would make all the difference between being > theoretically able >> to complete the set with one box of boosters and there being just no way. >> >> Thomas Please quote responsibly; that isn't something I "wrote", and my name isn't Thomas. =) (that, or I apparently said "snip" =) > this information is outdated. bloddlines will contain somewhere between 160 > and 180 cards from what i have heard. > > considering that there might as well again be R and R2 i believe you will > need a minimum of 2 boxes to get 1 full set. You snipped too much; Thomas was suggesting an alteration to the rarity distribution system: >- even shifting from 1/3 each to just 30% rares, 30% uncommons and 40% commons that would have less total rares to go in the rare slots, making it easier for those players who feel they "gotta get them all." =) But, even if they did that and kept the R1/R2 idea, yeah, one box probably wouldn't do it. -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

On 28 Sep 2001 02:31:07 -0700, fu...@optical.mindstorm.com (Ben Peal) wrote: >> I think Fortitude / Dominate rules unchallenged, except maybe by Obf / Dom, >> but then your vampires can die... With For, they don't ! > > I've found that rescuing your vampires (especially with the help of > Obfuscate) is a great way to frustrate combat decks. Torpor doesn't > mean dead. And this is the primary reason pure combat has so much trouble. Beating down a single vampire doesn't mean much; it comes back very quickly. A lot of times "key" vampires are "key" because of some inherent ability, or because of something you've put on them (Prince, Palatial Estate, Guardian Angel, take your pick)... so when you get right down to it, it doesn't matter how much blood the guy has. It's just whether he's ready or not. Temptation of Greater Power doesn't say "requires a FULL Justicar". > I rate Obf/Aus higher than For/Dom, too. Wow, I dunno. That's a rough comparison. I have a couple lovely obf/AUS decks that work extremely well, so I know better than to underrate -that- combo. But while DOM/FOR is lacking stealth, it's also got the advantage of only needing to get away with things once, in general. Take a good, basic idea like the following: a bunch of DOM/for and DOM/FOR vampires a couple FOR skill cards a few Blood Dolls a bunch of Governs, to be played mostly at superior (pool gain) a bunch of Conditionings/Foreshadowing Destruction a few Bondings, to be saved for surprise value some Seductions, to use on untapped vampires plenty of Change of Target, to burn people's Wakes/intercept some Restorations, for stuff to do once you've Changed a small pile of prevent cards some Wake/Deflection, and a few Pulling Strings/Kindred Coercion two Day Operations Stir well, and play. All it needs to get away with is one good Conditioned bleed to get your attention; and it should be able to get out four reasonably-sized minions pretty quickly. If you're heavy on intercept, you'll be able to afford blocking all its "innocuous" actions, but if you're just light intercept, you might end up saving all your stuff to stop the bleeds... which is kind of a losing battle. DOM/FOR is still quite strong. But in an odd way, it supports Ben's point as well; I avoid the "low stealth" problem by simply not even TRYING for stealth, and assuming I'll be blocked. That lack of stealth is a real weakness of theirs; it's not that you get through all the OTHER actions, it's that you have trouble getting through that KEY action. -- Derek AGITATOR, n. A statesman who shakes the fruit trees of his neighbors -- to dislodge the worms.

All right, the abuse needs to stop. Yes we can't generate stealth unless we use the Queen of sleaze. So what. The Ventrue are still a beating(tm). > serious threat. Just block. The generally expensive (playable) > ventrue are unlikely to signficantly outnumber their prey, esp. since > the ventrue's predator may be attack the ventrue pool with means that > are more difficult to stop. Yes they are, with nye on unbeatable rush defence (2nd/Obediance backed with SoS) they can minion tap guys to 3, and bring out more vampires. As for pool damage, FOR/DOM/2nd beats combat, Titles beat vote, Deflection/2nd beats bleed, what mythical way of pool damage are they using? Granted no Ventrue deck can be lined with tons of these, but 2nd Obediance is a good start, with deflections as a back up. It also cycles well, second and obediance hunts if you need to cycle. Say, 8 2nd Trad, 8 Obediance, 6 Deflection, 6 Majesty/Kiss of Ra (per metagame considerations) > Low caps + obf/OBF + laptops + hacks. Who needs disciplines? OBF is a discipline. > You mention Seduction too much, when the other clans make better use > of it (not just giovanni, though that is even worse). If A is better > than B, why play B at all? The Ventrue can do multi things (bleed, > vote, bloat...) but its rare that you'll have room enough in a deck to > do more than a (very) few things well. And doing it at 1 stealth > doesn't count as doing anything particularly well. excuse me, but he mentions Seduction to much? Lol. Lets use your own logic now. If A is better than B, don't use B, ever. The Ventrue are the best voters in the game. They have PRE and DOM on low and mid cap vampires, 5 Princes with reasonably tight disciplines (7,7,8,9,10), the best IC member, and a good Justicar. As for the one stealth comment: tons of actions in the game happen at one stealth, or no stealth, and work out just fine. If your predator is an intercept deck, bleed for 3 (you are using Goven the Unalinged in this DOM toting, big vamp using deck, right?) at zero stealth. Watch as he jams on Intercept, runs out of prevent and untap, and dies. Toss in a Kiss of Ra or two and a Grave robbing to add insult to injury. Will this always work? No, of course not. Not having access to additional stealth is the only weakness given to the Ventrue, it doesn't make them bad, it makes them balanced. If the deck I'm describing sounds unfocused, that's because it is. The Ventrue Law Firm is toolboxy, because it has to be. As for a pure bloat deck behind me, I'm always surprised that people have a problem with one as their predator. Yes in about 27 transfers the deck might have out 6 big vampires barring predator issues, but so what, in that time I'll have gotten an oust or two and be ready to go on his predator, giving me lots of VP's. Cameron

On 28 Sep 2001 04:38:23 -0700, legbiter wrote: >i want to propose the following, mainly to the UK community but others >are welcome to adopt or ignore the idea as they see fit. > >i suggest that someone, eg me, create Foundation decks for each clan, I'd rather use a deck of my own. Here's what I did for a recent pre-release event for the latest Shadowfist set, Shaolin Showdown. This was booster-only and I had a limited supply of boosters. The format was: * open constructed decks but containing a minimum of 10 cards from the new set. * each player was given two boosters from the new set when they arrived. This gave them at least 20 cards to choose from. * there was about an hour of free trading in which players could swap cards to get something from the new set that they could sensibly put into the deck they had brought with them. I called this the "Market Square" format after a card from the new set. Maybe the Vampire equivalent would be "Succubus Club"? Now Shadowfist only has 7 faction/clans and 3 talent/disciplines so it might be easier for players to mix in a splash of new cards from a limited pool. But players can bring more than one deck to use as the foundation and so can select whichever goes best with the Bloodline cards that they get. Anyway, my point is that I'd prefer to be starting with a deck of my own. That way, I have some idea of what to look for in the new cards and the focus is only on the new set (not a bunch of obsolete Jyhad cards). And the constraint forces players to use the new cards so that you'd get to see them in action too. What you might do to ensure an even spread is make this a Clan War type of event. If the Bloodlines go with their related clans then maybe players could book seats to play as the relevant major clan. No-one seems to understand the exact way this works though. I'm amazed to hear players rehashing the arguments about symbols vs keywords etc. - aren't you all playtesters? Andrew

"Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:<9ov39p$mkk$1...@wanadoo.fr>... > Ventrue have 3 of the best disciplines ever, and that's why they can win, > period ! > I think Fortitude / Dominate rules unchallenged, except maybe by Obf / Dom, > but then your vampires can die... With For, they don't ! Alright! That's the spirit! Now send me those winning do/fo based !Ventrue decks so that we can prove to the world that the Ventrue Antitribu are the best damn clan out there! Please? Alex Broadhead !Ventrue Newsletter Editor

> Why? Because we got sick of Ventrue decks and developed strategies > against them. Now we don't see them anywhere nearly as often. Case in > point: Prior to Mike Nilson's winning Ventrue deck in June 2001, you > have to go back as far as October 1999 to find a winning Ventrue deck in > America on the Lasombra's site. All it took was the simple and generally > useful strategy of putting a little bit of intercept in your deck. Hey Ben, Technically my deck at Origins 2001 probably would qualify as a Ventrue deck as the crypt is 50% Ventrue. That's all I had to say :-) Bernie Bresnahan Prince of Lansing, MI.

On the other hand, maybe straight draft tournaments would be okay. No matter how fragmentary the Bloodlines cards are, all the players in the tournament will be in the same situation of having crazy crypts and libraries, so maybe the experience would be an enjoyable novelty. On the other other hand (what am I, a Blood Brother?), it would take a long time to trade and build with nothing but wholly unfamiliar cards. Though I understand playtesters are supposed to keep quiet about their experiences, maybe Whitewolf could release them from their vows of silence to the extent of allowing them to voice their opinions about whether a straight draft will be practical.

Emmit Svenson wrote: > whether a straight [BL] draft will be practical. It will not. The cards are not sufficiently diverse to allow a BL-only format to work. Everyone would be on equal footing, true. But that's only because everyone's decks would be equally unworkable. The object of the prerelease is to let people *play* with the cards, not to sit there with the cards in their hands and wish that they could play. The topic of pre-release event format is currently being discussed on the Prince list (with whom the events will be coordinated - so it seems like the natural forum for the discussion). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: > The topic of pre-release event format is currently being discussed on > the Prince list (with whom the events will be coordinated - so it seems > like the natural forum for the discussion). Depends. If the issue is around the logistics of organizing a tournament then it would be. I sort of perceive that this has more to do with what kind of format would be worthwhile and fun to play. If so, then shouldn't WW take some input from all players rather than just princes? Unfortunately, with 11-card booster packs available only, it might take a fair amount of cards to overcome the dissonance of the various unrelated bloodlines. I might suggest a sealed deck tournament with something like 8 Bloodlines boosters and a FN or SW precon starter at random. Fred

Flux wrote: > Ben Peal wrote: > > Orpheus wrote: > > > Ventrue have 3 of the best disciplines ever, and that's why they can > > > win, period ! > > > > Ah, but do they have 3 disciplines that complement each other well? > > I contend that they don't. > > PRE and DOM have some overlap, but otherwise they do complement each other > rather reasonably. Neither discipline helps a lot with getting the other discipline to work well. > > I've found that rescuing your vampires (especially with the help of > > Obfuscate) is a great way to frustrate combat decks. Torpor doesn't > > mean dead. > > No, but if they're rushing you with potence your vampire will be empty, then > you have to hunt. So you just wasted two actions and 1 blood to get a > vampire back, so that next turn you can do it again. You're just helping the > combat decks do what they do best... :-P In my experience, it can take combat decks quite a while to get through all of your minions, by which time they've probably had to start dealing with their predator. And don't forget Swallowed By the Night... > > I rate Obf/Aus higher than For/Dom, too. > > Obf/Aus will get you killed real fast around here. Few people are playing > stealth right now, and there's a lot of combat. > And what use is getting all your actions through (or blocking +5 stealth > actions) if you can't do anything else? Take a look at my Wonderwall deck, which won Ritual Challenge: New Jersey this year. It's in the Lasombra's deck archive. It's an Obf/Aus weenie deck, that uses Telepathic Counter, Telepathic Misdirection, and assorted intercept for defense while creating a wave of Embrace weenies. After a while, you can just shove a bunch of Obf weenies up their nose. > At least with For/Dom you can prevent them from blocking (and no amount of > intercept will help them there), and when you get an action through it's > likely to be a bleed for 6. This is what I call "reckless bleeding". Others call it "Daring the Deflection". [ quoted text not captured ]

>> The topic of pre-release event format is currently being discussed on >> the Prince list (with whom the events will be coordinated - so it seems >> like the natural forum for the discussion). > > Depends. If the issue is around the logistics of organizing a tournament > then it would be. I sort of perceive that this has more to do with what > kind of format would be worthwhile and fun to play. If so, then shouldn't > WW take some input from all players rather than just princes? Don't several(all?) of the Princes also read and/or post to this list? Isn't anything posted here represented that way? Or, if you really want to make a difference, you can always contact your local prince. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

orcao...@hotmail.com (Cameron) wrote in message news:<a1e26d99.01092...@posting.google.com>... > All right, the abuse needs to stop. Yes we can't generate stealth > unless we use the Queen of sleaze. So what. The Ventrue are still a > beating(tm). They have bombs to drop on ppl, just a matter of getting off the runway and dodging those nasty SAMs :) > As for pool damage, FOR/DOM/2nd beats combat, It beats crappy combat, maybe. My suspicion is that few ppl here really know decent combat; it's not intuitive. > Say, 8 2nd Trad, 8 Obediance, 6 Deflection, 6 Majesty/Kiss of Ra (per > metagame considerations) 2nd is good, the rest are situational. > > Low caps + obf/OBF + laptops + hacks. Who needs disciplines? > > OBF is a discipline. My line above was RE: bleed disciplines. > excuse me, but he mentions Seduction to much? Lol. Lets use your own > logic now. If A is better than B, don't use B, ever. The Ventrue are > the best voters in the game. They have PRE and DOM on low and mid cap > vampires, 5 Princes with reasonably tight disciplines (7,7,8,9,10), > the best IC member, and a good Justicar. Bleah on the justicar (inferior for? come on), and part of being a good voter means successful vote actions, not just referendums that may or may not happen. > If the deck I'm describing sounds unfocused, that's because it is. > The Ventrue Law Firm is toolboxy, because it has to be. > > As for a pure bloat deck behind me, I'm always surprised that people > have a problem with one as their predator. Yes in about 27 transfers > the deck might have out 6 big vampires barring predator issues, but so > what, in that time I'll have gotten an oust or two and be ready to go > on his predator, giving me lots of VP's. 1) He's bringing of 2-4 votes each, this makes it nearly impossible for you to vote 2) It doesn't take him that long to set up (unobstructed), unless he's doing something wrong. 3) Using the time of no predation to hammer through your prey and grandprey is tricky. Chances are your prey won't hit the grand prey very hard if you use the early boost you are getting to full effect (and that's if theres much of a boost at all).

Ben Peal <fu...@optical.mindstorm.com> wrote in message news:bf72a12e.01092...@posting.google.com... > Flux wrote: > > Ben Peal wrote: > > > Orpheus wrote: > > > > Ventrue have 3 of the best disciplines ever, and that's why they can > > > > win, period ! > > > > > > Ah, but do they have 3 disciplines that complement each other well? > > > I contend that they don't. > > > > PRE and DOM have some overlap, but otherwise they do complement each other > > rather reasonably. > > Neither discipline helps a lot with getting the other discipline to work > well. That's what's the FOR is for. I just meant that DOM is great for bleeds and deflections, and PRE is good for votes and bleeds. They overlap some, but they're generally quite nice together. Though a case could be made regarding Mind Numb as helping the DOM work well too. Let's compare to PRO CEL, a somewhat extreme example. Both give maneuvers, both give presses, and the additional strikes won't be quite as usefull if you're sending your oponent to torpor on the first strike... (I'm not saying there's no way to make them work together, but there's a lot of overlap and some effects are useless together). > > No, but if they're rushing you with potence your vampire will be empty, then > > you have to hunt. So you just wasted two actions and 1 blood to get a > > vampire back, so that next turn you can do it again. You're just helping the > > combat decks do what they do best... :-P > > In my experience, it can take combat decks quite a while to get through > all of your minions, by which time they've probably had to start dealing > with their predator. Depends on the size (and number) of your minions, and the type of combat deck you're dealing with. > And don't forget Swallowed By the Night... I don't. It falls in with 'metagame considerations' though, any combat deck can prepare itself for it. Fake Out is free. > > > I rate Obf/Aus higher than For/Dom, too. > > > > Obf/Aus will get you killed real fast around here. Few people are playing > > stealth right now, and there's a lot of combat. > > > And what use is getting all your actions through (or blocking +5 stealth > > actions) if you can't do anything else? > > Take a look at my Wonderwall deck, which won Ritual Challenge: New Jersey > this year. It's in the Lasombra's deck archive. It's an Obf/Aus weenie > deck, that uses Telepathic Counter, Telepathic Misdirection, and assorted > intercept for defense while creating a wave of Embrace weenies. After a > while, you can just shove a bunch of Obf weenies up their nose. That's likely due to the 'weenie effect', and not the obf aus per se. You could try the same with dom weenies: Deflections and some intercept locations for defense, GtU and Embrace to get more vampires, then mass bleed with Seduction to help. Put For on top of that and you can also avoid rush combat and make Embrace-Force of Will-Threats combos. I'm not saying Obf Aus is a weak combination, I've built decks around it myself too, but I would never rate it above Dom For. > > At least with For/Dom you can prevent them from blocking (and no amount of > > intercept will help them there), and when you get an action through it's > > likely to be a bleed for 6. > > This is what I call "reckless bleeding". Others call it "Daring the > Deflection". I wasn't refering to Daring the Dawn specifically: Seduction and Sleeping Mind can work too. Anyway, it's only reckless if your prey packs deflections. While it is the most effective bleed defense, not everyone can do it. And even then, you use Contigency Planning to burn through their Deflections and avoid killing your gran-prey. And if your prey packs Deflections, so might your gran-prey: you might end up bleeding your predator, which can even be usefull. :-) One local player (Frederico Conde) would often bleed for 6 everytime he could. He said he didn't mind risking the AI, and deflections would eventually run out. Turns out he was more often right than not, he often swept tables at tournaments even when he had more than one vampire burned to an AI or FoW/whatever. Flux

>Unfortunately, with 11-card booster packs available only, it might take a >fair amount of cards to overcome the dissonance of the various unrelated >bloodlines. I might suggest a sealed deck tournament with something like >8 Bloodlines boosters and a FN or SW precon starter at random. Open boosters. *Then*, *choose* precon. Part of the strategy might be to try and not pick a common precon to avoid contesting problems, assuming certain precons would be more desirable than others. Course, part of putting together a set and assigning rarity can be trying to balance limited play.

[ quoted text not captured ] That's an interesting suggestion. The only drawback I can see is how to allow for a run on one or two of the more popular precons. If you have 17 players, in theory they might all choose the same precon, necessitating keeping 17 of every type of precon on hand to allow for all the possibilities. I think you would have to roll for order of choice or something, which then has the drawback that the folks who choose early may have a tremendous advantage over those who choose last. ("Let's see, Ventrue or Assamite, Assamite or Ventrue.....or just run from the room screaming perhaps?") Fred

> > As for pool damage, FOR/DOM/2nd beats combat, > > It beats crappy combat, maybe. My suspicion is that few ppl here > really know decent combat; it's not intuitive. Alright, but I play the Ventrue consistantly in a playgroup that includes James Hamblin, if that helps you judge the caliber of rush combat I've faced with these guys. If not, search for his name in google. Untap/Obediance, backed by Skin of Steel beats combat. Even Assamites. > > > Say, 8 2nd Trad, 8 Obediance, 6 Deflection, 6 Majesty/Kiss of Ra (per > > metagame considerations) > > 2nd is good, the rest are situational. Obediance is never situational in a Ventrue Law Firm, someone will be younger, and hunting, or equiping, or bleeding. It's insanely cycleable. Deflection less so, but bouncing a bleed for one is still one more pool I have. The other cards depend on how much and of what type the intercept you see is. > > excuse me, but he mentions Seduction to much? Lol. Lets use your own > > logic now. If A is better than B, don't use B, ever. The Ventrue are > > the best voters in the game. They have PRE and DOM on low and mid cap > > vampires, 5 Princes with reasonably tight disciplines (7,7,8,9,10), > > the best IC member, and a good Justicar. > > Bleah on the justicar (inferior for? come on), and part of being a > good voter means successful vote actions, not just referendums that > may or may not happen. Who uses his for as a primary discipline in a Vote Deck? It's his backup combat defence, and it only sucks against Celerity. And his special is good. > 1) He's bringing of 2-4 votes each, this makes it nearly impossible > for you to vote If I don't care about him, chances are I'm not a voter. And there are other types of Bloat too. > 2) It doesn't take him that long to set up (unobstructed), unless he's > doing something wrong. To be scarry he needs vampires, say 4. each requires 8-11 transfers. That's say, 37 transfers. Even with Zillah and Info Hwy, I've got some time. > 3) Using the time of no predation to hammer through your prey and > grandprey is tricky. Chances are your prey won't hit the grand prey > very hard if you use the early boost you are getting to full effect > (and that's if theres much of a boost at all). But if I have a good deck, chances are I can do it. Just because he's playing bloat doesn't mean I'm stupid. :-P Cameron

"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message news:3BB502BC...@netcom.com... > Ian Lee wrote: > > Open boosters. *Then*, *choose* precon. Part of the strategy might be to try > That's an interesting suggestion. The only drawback I can see is how to allow > for a run on one or two of the more popular precons. If you have 17 players, in > theory they might all choose the same precon, necessitating keeping 17 of every > type of precon on hand to allow for all the possibilities. I think you would have > to roll for order of choice or something, which then has the drawback that the > folks who choose early may have a tremendous advantage over those who choose last. > ("Let's see, Ventrue or Assamite, Assamite or Ventrue.....or just run from the > room screaming perhaps?") The last precon I attended in Charolette, NC was conducted the same way, randomly assigning numbers, then choosing in order; I assume that's how most of them are done. What I would suggest is that "clumping" on a few popular decks might not be as much of an issue, since one of the main points lauded for Bloodlines is to "open up new strategies". Giovanni, Lasombra, and Tzimisce would still probably be the picks of choice, but maybe there will be some cards in the new set that will bring some of the less-competitive clans up to par. Drafting first, then picking starters seems like an excellent idea, though. David Cherryholmes Prince of Durham

Flux wrote: > Ben Peal: > > Flux wrote: > > > PRE and DOM have some overlap, but otherwise they do complement each > > > other rather reasonably. > > > > Neither discipline helps a lot with getting the other discipline to work > > well. > > That's what's the FOR is for. I'm not keen on sending my vampires to torpor every time I want to get an action through. > I just meant that DOM is great for bleeds and deflections, and PRE is good > for votes and bleeds. They overlap some, but they're generally quite nice > together. Though a case could be made regarding Mind Numb as helping the > DOM work well too. There's certainly the Mind Numb + Majesty + Seduction decks. They're too card-intensive for my tastes, though. I'm more a fan of interchangeable parts than waiting for combos. > > And don't forget Swallowed By the Night... > > I don't. It falls in with 'metagame considerations' though, any combat deck > can prepare itself for it. Fake Out is free. Swallowed By the Night certainly isn't a catch-all, but it can help get you out of the occasional jam. Given that it's already a stealth card, I don't feel that it really costs me anything to include it in my decks. > > Take a look at my Wonderwall deck, which won Ritual Challenge: New > > Jersey this year. It's in the Lasombra's deck archive. It's an Obf/Aus > > weenie deck, that uses Telepathic Counter, Telepathic Misdirection, and > > assorted intercept for defense while creating a wave of Embrace weenies. > > After a while, you can just shove a bunch of Obf weenies up their nose. > > That's likely due to the 'weenie effect', and not the obf aus per se. > You could try the same with dom weenies: Deflections and some intercept > locations for defense, GtU and Embrace to get more vampires, then mass bleed > with Seduction to help. It doesn't work the same, though. I've found that I've needed the Obfuscate to be able to pull off the Embrace actions, plus the resulting hunting actions, as my opponents have tended to be fearful of seeing a weenie horde build up. The Obfuscate also helps with weenie bleeding, and it really makes it easier to rescue torporized weenies (part of the combat frustration tactic). I like Auspex in the deck, as it's a more general purpose defense discipline than Dominate. I don't like relying on the media outlets as my only sources of intercept, so I'll throw in a few Eagle's Sights, Spirit's Touches, and Precognitions. Telepathic Counter also saves some blood on your vampires (an issue with weenies...Deflection is clearly better in other decks). I also really like the cheap vampires with Obfuscate and/or Auspex. It's nice to be able to say to Normal, "Hey, go do that", and he can go out and generate the stealth he needs and do what he's told. > Put For on top of that and you can also avoid rush combat and make Embrace-> > Force of Will-Threats combos. Could be neat... > > This is what I call "reckless bleeding". Others call it "Daring the > > Deflection". > > I wasn't refering to Daring the Dawn specifically: Seduction and Sleeping > Mind can work too. Anyway, it's only reckless if your prey packs > deflections. While it is the most effective bleed defense, not everyone can > do it. However, a very significant number of players out there do pack bleed bounce. It was the bucket brigades of bleed bouncing I saw in tourneys that led me to build the Short Leash Bleed deck. > And even then, you use Contigency Planning to burn through their > Deflections and avoid killing your gran-prey. Don't waste your time with Contingency Planning. Use Change of Target. > One local player (Frederico Conde) would often bleed for 6 everytime he > could. He said he didn't mind risking the AI, and deflections would > eventually run out. Turns out he was more often right than not, he often > swept tables at tournaments even when he had more than one vampire burned to > an AI or FoW/whatever. In my experience, the player doing the Deflecting is typically coming out ahead. Yeah, the Deflections will eventually run out, but how much damage have you caused your grand-prey in the process? I'm not particularly interested in helping my prey's cause. [ quoted text not captured ]

Ben Peal wrote: > Flux wrote: > > I just meant that DOM is great for bleeds and deflections, and PRE is good > > for votes and bleeds. They overlap some, but they're generally quite nice > > together. Though a case could be made regarding Mind Numb as helping the > > DOM work well too. > > There's certainly the Mind Numb + Majesty + Seduction decks. They're > too card-intensive for my tastes, though. I'm more a fan of interchangeable > parts than waiting for combos. I always thought of Mind Numb as a great defensive card too. You can use it on your predator and make him take some heavy bleeds, and probably lay off you for a while. :-) > Swallowed By the Night certainly isn't a catch-all, but it can help get > you out of the occasional jam. Given that it's already a stealth card, > I don't feel that it really costs me anything to include it in my decks. Majesty also has a dual use, and Tap&Bleed decks are likely to include it anyway. I played a weenie Ventrue bleed deck a few times, I had no stealth whatsoever so I knew I'd enter combat a lot and included For cards accordingly. I didn't want to use Change of target because I wanted to tap the blockers, so they replaced stealth cards, and were usefull against combat decks too. > I like Auspex in the deck, as it's a more general purpose defense > discipline than Dominate. I don't like relying on the media outlets as my > only sources of intercept, so I'll throw in a few Eagle's Sights, > Spirit's Touches, and Precognitions. Telepathic Counter also saves some > blood on your vampires (an issue with weenies...Deflection is clearly > better in other decks). ... but Dominate helps you bleed for more. :-) > I also really like the cheap vampires with Obfuscate and/or Auspex. > It's nice to be able to say to Normal, "Hey, go do that", and he can > go out and generate the stealth he needs and do what he's told. You'll have to find him something worthwhile to do though, and bleeding for 1 is not very impressive. :-) > However, a very significant number of players out there do pack bleed > bounce. It was the bucket brigades of bleed bouncing I saw in tourneys > that led me to build the Short Leash Bleed deck. Metagame. We had that here a couple of years back in tournaments, but now it's much more combat focused. Even then, the metagame shifted from Stealth&Bleed to Tap&Bleed a few times, since that's not as vulnerable to Deflections (you don't kill your gran-prey as often). Flux

orcao...@hotmail.com (Cameron) wrote in message news:<a1e26d99.01092...@posting.google.com>... > > > As for pool damage, FOR/DOM/2nd beats combat, > > It beats crappy combat, maybe. My suspicion is that few ppl here > > really know decent combat; it's not intuitive. > Alright, but I play the Ventrue consistantly in a playgroup that > includes James Hamblin, if that helps you judge the caliber of rush > combat I've faced with these guys. Hrm, well I've done searches on that name for 'deck', 'combat', and both. Most of what was there was old, and it largely was not well constructed, which is either because: A) new cards have come in invalidating old decks or B) your combat isn't as good as ours. From the times it seems that only Final Nights and perhaps Sabbat War weren't available, and neither one added cards that seem missing from those decks. > > > Say, 8 2nd Trad, 8 Obediance, 6 Deflection, 6 Majesty/Kiss of Ra (per > > > metagame considerations) > > 2nd is good, the rest are situational. > Obediance is never situational in a Ventrue Law Firm, someone will be > younger, and hunting, or equiping, or bleeding. It's insanely > cycleable. Deflection less so, but bouncing a bleed for one is still > one more pool I have. The other cards depend on how much and of what > type the intercept you see is. If you *are* going for the really hi cap Ventrue, you are openning yourself that much more to high cap abuse. Plus there isn't whole hell of a lot of gain off of 2nd trad / Obedience a hunt, and if they're bleeding playing VLF opens you to that much more abuse. Seduction/Call or Seduction/Elder type forces you to deflect at zero stealth (making CoT much easy for the bleeder), and Pentex tends to give high caps fits. Even if you can immediately tap it down to zero, you have a useless minion that can't be rescued for 1-3 turns. This harms the 7 caps since neither Info Hwy nor Z Valley will get them out in a turn, and leaves you wide open to getting bleed mercilessly. You just won't have that many deflections in your opening 10-15 cards, when you can't take actions or block to cycle. Also, when pentex comes out the Ventrue are perhaps the worst clan in the game at getting it off; making the act unblockable just torpors a different vampire. Toreador bleed designs utilizing this (hi Steph) rape the Ventrue pool fast enough to make the "error" largely unrecoverable. > > Bleah on the justicar (inferior for? come on), and part of being a > > good voter means successful vote actions, not just referendums that > > may or may not happen. > Who uses his for as a primary discipline in a Vote Deck? It's his > backup combat defence, and it only sucks against Celerity. And his > special is good. The inferior for kills the use of Kiss of Ra even more so. This doesn't make him a bad vamp per se; it's just a joke that him and Angus have the same amount of for as Ulugh Beg and less than Cardano (neither of which would normally want to use it). As for his special, I think it sucks; doesn't work on titles, doesn't work on him, and 1/2 the time contesting is going to be cross table anyways. Compare that to a built-in Eagle sight or an extra discard, which are almost always going to be useful right off the bat. > Cameron