another Mask of 1000 Faces clarification (LSJ)

HI I've seen some discussion in a thread in the past over the mask of 1K but i've still not clear this: Francois Villon is trying to use his ability to steal two blood, someome try to block him, can i use the mask of 1k to continue the stealing with another vampire? (i would say so, i think i've a jyhad card, there has been any rephrasing?) In any case can Francois (as he is untapped now) try again to steal 2 blood? and under the NRA? thanks Andrea

>HI >I've seen some discussion in a thread in the past over the mask of 1K >but i've still not clear this: >Francois Villon is trying to use his ability to steal two blood, >someome try to block him, can i use the mask of 1k to continue the >stealing with another vampire? (i would say so, i think i've a jyhad >card, there has been any rephrasing?) No. Mask cannot be used to mask an action if the Masking vampire is not capable of taking that action, nor if any action modifiers have been played on this action that could not have been played if the Masking vampire were the acting minion. (Not counting blood that has already been spent.) [RTR 19980623] Only Francois can use his special. No one else can (so they can't Mask). >In any case can Francois (as he is untapped now) try again to steal 2 >blood? Moot. But if someone was able to use his special for him, he can indeed try again to steal 2 blood. Since he wasn't the acting minion when the action resolved (since someone else Masked it), he isn't "tainted" under NRA. Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 wrote: > >Francois Villon is trying to use his ability to steal two blood, > >someome try to block him, can i use the mask of 1k to continue the > >stealing with another vampire? (i would say so, i think i've a jyhad > >card, there has been any rephrasing?) > > No. > > Mask cannot be used to mask an action if the Masking vampire is not capable of > taking that action, nor if any action modifiers have been played on this action > that could not have been played if the Masking vampire were the acting minion. > (Not counting blood that has already been spent.) [RTR 19980623] > > Only Francois can use his special. No one else can (so they can't Mask). Correct. > >In any case can Francois (as he is untapped now) try again to steal 2 > >blood? > > Moot. But if someone was able to use his special for him, he can indeed try > again to steal 2 blood. Since he wasn't the acting minion when the action > resolved (since someone else Masked it), he isn't "tainted" under NRA. Correct. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3BD5481E...@white-wolf.com>... > Halcyan 2 wrote: > > > > Mask cannot be used to mask an action if the Masking vampire is not capable of > > taking that action, nor if any action modifiers have been played on this action > > that could not have been played if the Masking vampire were the acting minion. > > (Not counting blood that has already been spent.) [RTR 19980623] > > > > Only Francois can use his special. No one else can (so they can't Mask). > > Correct. OK so there is no major difference between mask of 1k and shimulo deception (apart from action modif. reaction, the second vamp should be able to do everything the first has done. right? Wait! say that francois wants 2 blood from gerard (!ventrue cap 5) can Hannibal mask 1k him? (younger vs. any sabbat but gerard is younger and sabbat)? the +1stealth difference counts? And francois using mask 1K over Hannibal (he would gain a +1stealth on the same action)? Thanks Andrea

andrea wrote: > OK so there is no major difference between mask of 1k and shimulo > deception (apart from action modif. reaction, the second vamp should > be able to do everything the first has done. right? OK. > Wait! say that francois wants 2 blood from gerard (!ventrue cap 5) can > Hannibal mask 1k him? (younger vs. any sabbat but gerard is younger > and sabbat)? No. > the +1stealth difference counts? No. But the fact that only Francois can perform Francois's special-ability action counts. > And francois using mask 1K over Hannibal (he would gain a +1stealth on > the same action)? No, as above. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <8b06c4c.01102...@posting.google.com>, andrea <andrea....@infinito.it> writes: >OK so there is no major difference between mask of 1k and shimulo >deception (apart from action modif. reaction, the second vamp should >be able to do everything the first has done. right? Basically, yes. >Wait! say that francois wants 2 blood from gerard (!ventrue cap 5) can >Hannibal mask 1k him? (younger vs. any sabbat but gerard is younger >and sabbat)? Hannibal could not initiate Francois' in built action. >the +1stealth difference counts? That's one of a number of things, yes. >And francois using mask 1K over Hannibal (he would gain a +1stealth on >the same action)? Francois could not initiate Hannibal's inbuilt action. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D And if it's all right, I'd kind've like to be your lover EBD690ECD7A1F 'Cause when you're with me I can't help but be B457CA213D7E6 So desperately, uncontrollably happy 68C3695D623D5D

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >Halcyan 2 wrote: [snip] >> Moot. But if someone was able to use his special for him, he can indeed try >> again to steal 2 blood. Since he wasn't the acting minion when the action >> resolved (since someone else Masked it), he isn't "tainted" under NRA. > >Correct. Hypothetical question: Assume that there is a vampire that has "<x> may steal up to 1 blood from a younger vampire as a +1 stealth (D) action." i.e. like Francois but only one blood. Could the previous mentioned action be switched to the less powerful stealer? The question is whether saying that Francois is going to try to steal blood suffices, or that the theft attempt must be stated as Francois is going to try to steal up to two blood (and thus possibly eliminating the less powerful vampire from subbing). Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices.

No vampire can take over another vampire's special ability action regardless of wether or not they have a similar built in action. "Gene Wirchenko" <ge...@mail.ocis.net> wrote in message news:3bd64c7e...@news.ocis.net... [ quoted text not captured ]

"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote: >No vampire can take over another vampire's special ability action regardless >of wether or not they have a similar built in action. Chapter and verse? [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<lfyJafo$PY17...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <8b06c4c.01102...@posting.google.com>, andrea > <andrea....@infinito.it> writes: > >Wait! say that francois wants 2 blood from gerard (!ventrue cap 5) can > >Hannibal mask 1k him? (younger vs. any sabbat but gerard is younger > >and sabbat)? > > Hannibal could not initiate Francois' in built action. > > >the +1stealth difference counts? > > That's one of a number of things, yes. > > >And francois using mask 1K over Hannibal (he would gain a +1stealth on > >the same action)? > > Francois could not initiate Hannibal's inbuilt action. SIGH! Thanks Andrea

"Gene Wirchenko" <ge...@mail.ocis.net> wrote in message news:3bd657d4...@news.ocis.net... > "GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote: > > >No vampire can take over another vampire's special ability action regardless > >of wether or not they have a similar built in action. > > Chapter and verse? To quote an earlier post > Mask cannot be used to mask an action if the Masking vampire is not capable of > taking that action, nor if any action modifiers have been played on this action > that could not have been played if the Masking vampire were the acting minion. > (Not counting blood that has already been spent.) [RTR 19980623] > > Only Francois can use his special. No one else can (so they can't Mask). Correct. <--- LSJ's response [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Gene Wirchenko wrote: > Hypothetical question: Assume that there is a vampire that has > "<x> may steal up to 1 blood from a younger vampire as a +1 stealth > (D) action." i.e. like Francois but only one blood. > > Could the previous mentioned action be switched to the less > powerful stealer? > > The question is whether saying that Francois is going to try to > steal blood suffices, or that the theft attempt must be stated as > Francois is going to try to steal up to two blood (and thus possibly > eliminating the less powerful vampire from subbing). The action is not some generic effect of stealing some blood. It is "Francios may..blah blah". The full action is the full text. No other vampire has the text "Francios may steal...blah blah". eg: Superior Govern the Unaligned is a different action to the 4th Tradition, the Accounting, it just has the same effect. a superior govern could not be masked by a prince without superior dominate, even though that prince would be able to play a 4th trad. it's not the effect of the action that determines who can mask, it's what the action actually is. i hope that helps, salem

"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message news:<ttcoeor...@news.supernews.com>... > "Gene Wirchenko" <ge...@mail.ocis.net> wrote in message > news:3bd657d4...@news.ocis.net... > > "GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote: > > > > >No vampire can take over another vampire's special ability action > regardless > > >of wether or not they have a similar built in action. > > > > Chapter and verse? > > To quote an earlier post > > > Mask cannot be used to mask an action if the Masking vampire is not > capable of > > taking that action, nor if any action modifiers have been played on this > action > > that could not have been played if the Masking vampire were the acting > minion. > > (Not counting blood that has already been spent.) [RTR 19980623] > > > > Only Francois can use his special. No one else can (so they can't Mask). > > Correct. <--- LSJ's response > > > Sincerely, > > > > Gene Wirchenko I understand a special ability could be interpreted like a card: (for Francois) Action: steal 2 blood..... with a small symbol of Francois on the left side (a very tiny reproduction of the art?!). Noone else can use, obviusly, that card so noone can mask. Andrea

"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote: >"Gene Wirchenko" <ge...@mail.ocis.net> wrote in message >news:3bd657d4...@news.ocis.net... >> "GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote: >> >> >No vampire can take over another vampire's special ability action >regardless >> >of wether or not they have a similar built in action. >> >> Chapter and verse? > >To quote an earlier post > >> Mask cannot be used to mask an action if the Masking vampire is not >capable of >> taking that action, nor if any action modifiers have been played on this >action >> that could not have been played if the Masking vampire were the acting >minion. >> (Not counting blood that has already been spent.) [RTR 19980623] >> >> Only Francois can use his special. No one else can (so they can't Mask). > >Correct. <--- LSJ's response I gave a hypothetical example where the vampire would be able to duplicate the ability (to one blood). Why would this ruling apply then? [ quoted text not captured ]

"....salem christ...." <s940...@bohm.anu.edu.au> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] It doesn't. What is the difference between that and "<vampire x> attempts to bleed you."? No one else (barring a few noncontesting) is <vampire x>. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Gene Wirchenko" <ge...@mail.ocis.net> wrote in message news:3bd6f91c...@news.ocis.net... [ quoted text not captured ] Think of the action as an action card that has the requirement that the acting vampire is Francois. Also consider Intimidation, a minion with pre cannot Mask a superior Intimidation because that minion does not have PRE, it doesn't get "downgraded".

"Gene Wirchenko" <ge...@mail.ocis.net> wrote in message news:3bd6f98a...@news.ocis.net... [ quoted text not captured ] Mask of 1000 Faces Action Modifier [obf] Only usable by ready, untapped vampire other than the acting minion [who is capable of performing the action]. Untap the acting minion and tap this vampire instead. Now this vampire is the acting minion. The action resumes where it left off. [OBF] As above, with +1 stealth. The action, wrt action cards is the name of the card and in the case of cards that require disciplines it also needs to be declared as inf or sup. The minion taking over the action needs to be capable to performing the same action and in the case of actions that require disciplines at the same level ( inf or sup ). You cannot take over an action with a minion that can perform a "downgraded" ( or upgraded for that matter ) version of the same type of action. It's not the same action. It has also been ruled that no minion can take over an action allowed by a minion's card text, even if the minion that you want to use mask with can perform an identical action. For the reasoning behind this you'd have to ask LSJ. Personally I think it meets the requirements of the card if some other vamp has the same "steal 2 blood @ +1 stealth" card text but the way things stand you can't do it.

"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote: >"Gene Wirchenko" <ge...@mail.ocis.net> wrote in message >news:3bd6f98a...@news.ocis.net... [snip] >> It doesn't. What is the difference between that and "<vampire x> >> attempts to bleed you."? No one else (barring a few noncontesting) is >> <vampire x>. > >Mask of 1000 Faces >Action Modifier >[obf] Only usable by ready, untapped vampire other than the acting minion >[who is capable of performing the action]. Untap the acting minion and tap >this vampire instead. Now this vampire is the acting minion. The action >resumes where it left off. [OBF] As above, with +1 stealth. > >The action, wrt action cards is the name of the card and in the case of >cards that require disciplines it also needs to be declared as inf or sup. >The minion taking over the action needs to be capable to performing the same >action and in the case of actions that require disciplines at the same level >( inf or sup ). That I have no problem with. >You cannot take over an action with a minion that can perform a "downgraded" >( or upgraded for that matter ) version of the same type of action. It's not >the same action. Not this. >It has also been ruled that no minion can take over an action allowed by a >minion's card text, even if the minion that you want to use mask with can >perform an identical action. For the reasoning behind this you'd have to ask >LSJ. Personally I think it meets the requirements of the card if some other >vamp has the same "steal 2 blood @ +1 stealth" card text but the way things >stand you can't do it. I don't agree either, but if it's a ruling, that's the way it is. For now, anyway. Thanks for the answer. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Gene Wirchenko" <ge...@mail.ocis.net> wrote in message news:3bd86223...@news.ocis.net... [ quoted text not captured ] I didn't think you'd have any problems with either of those but I wan't going to make assumptions about your thinking. > >It has also been ruled that no minion can take over an action allowed by a > >minion's card text, even if the minion that you want to use mask with can > >perform an identical action. For the reasoning behind this you'd have to ask > >LSJ. Personally I think it meets the requirements of the card if some other > >vamp has the same "steal 2 blood @ +1 stealth" card text but the way things > >stand you can't do it. > > I don't agree either, but if it's a ruling, that's the way it is. > For now, anyway. > > Thanks for the answer. I don't really have a problem with the ruling but if I was making it I probably would have not ruled the same way myself as I cannot see any game mechanic ( or reason ) why a vamp with an identical built-in action couldn't take over another's buit-in action.

"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote: [snip >I don't really have a problem with the ruling but if I was making it I >probably would have not ruled the same way myself as I cannot see any game >mechanic ( or reason ) why a vamp with an identical built-in action couldn't >take over another's buit-in action. I would extend it. I don't have a problem with another vampire with a built-in action that is a subset of the original's. My rule would be that whatever the action eventually resolves to, it must be doable by both the original and replacement vampires. [ quoted text not captured ]