Is "hand damage" really hand damage?

I'm trying to make sense of all the modifications and clarifications to the rules. Some things do strike me as odd. Some weapons explicitly adds to the vampires hand damage, others just give the user a new base damage. (Bastard Sword lets the user inflict 2 damage each strike, Meat Cleaver gives the user +1 hand damage) Let's say I have a vampire, Bianca, she has innate 2 hand damage. This should mean that her Meat Cleaver would inflict 3 hand damage, but her Bastard Sword inflicts 2 melee damage. Any cards affecting hand-strikes should be usable with Meat Cleaver, but not Bastard Sword. Ok, so far everything makes some kind of sense. But then I read the official rulings: -Damage (Combat) Hand damage: damage from a hand strike. e.g. Damage from a Bastard Sword is *not* hand damage. [LSJ 970224] This rule works fine, since Bastard Sword gives a new "base damage" = 2. But what about Meat Cleaver or Brass Knuckles? These weapons explicitly adds to hand damage. Let us see if the ruling on hand strike will clarify things for us... -Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged damage-dealing innate strike. [LSJ 970224] ?????? A Hand Strike is a non-weapon strike... Hmm. Does this mean that an attack with Meat Cleaver is "hand damage", but not "Hand Strike"? No, that can't be, 'cause hand damage is damage from a hand strike. Meat Cleaver is a weapon that adds to "hand damage", but "hand damage" can't be inflicted with weapons. Then what does the +1 mean? Does it add to the user's hand damage and then convert the damage to melee damage? Does Bianca really inflict 3 damage with Meat Cleaver? If this is the case, is there anything that will prevent Bianca to use Fists of Death to get +hand damage and then use Meat Cleaver to convert the damage to melee damage and adding a much needed extra point of damage? Could someone please help me bring order to this confusing mess?

> > Some weapons explicitly adds to the vampires hand damage, others just > give the user a new base damage. (Bastard Sword lets the user inflict 2 > damage each strike, Meat Cleaver gives the user +1 hand damage) > Actually, by revised wording, both allow the user to strike with +1 hand damage. Bastard Sword and Meat Cleaver are essentially the same card. It's true that melee weapons are worded poorly. My preffered wording is, "Strike: +1 hand damage." While this still says hand damage (which is sort of misleading), it leaves no confusion that it is a melee weapon strike. > Let's say I have a vampire, Bianca, she has innate 2 hand damage. This > should mean that her Meat Cleaver would inflict 3 hand damage, but her > Bastard Sword inflicts 2 melee damage. > Nope, her Bastard Sword inflicts 3 weapon damage and her Meat Cleever inflicts 3 weapon damage. > Does Bianca really inflict 3 damage with Meat Cleaver? > If this is the case, is there anything that will prevent Bianca to use > Fists of Death to get +hand damage and then use Meat Cleaver to convert > the damage to melee damage and adding a much needed extra point of > damage? > Anything that adds to hand damage will add to the damage dealt by melee weapons. Basically, melee weapons use hand damage as their base attack and add to it. In the process, however, the "hand damage" attribute is lost, because the strke is now a weapon strike. On a side note, Basilia does not deal aggravated damage with wepons, and Claws of the Dead doesn't allow you to deal aggravated weapon damage. -Chris

Johan wrote: "Some weapons explicitly adds to the vampires hand damage, others just give the user a new base damage. (Bastard Sword lets the user inflict 2 damage each strike, Meat Cleaver gives the user +1 hand damage)" Ok. here is how this works. A "Hand Strike" is a strike made by a vampire's hand (possibly augmented by Pot cards and a few others, but not weapons). "Hand Damage" is damage based on a vampires base hand damage (usually 1), again, possibly modified by Pot cards and a few others (Lucky Blow, etc). Weapons, on the other hand, while based on a vampire's hand damage, are neither "Hand Damage" or "Hand Strikes". Using a weapon means the vampire striking is doing "Weapon Damage" with a "Weapon Strike". Bastard Sword (and Meat Cleaver, Brass Knuckles, and Gas Powered Chainsaw?) does damage based on a minions base hand damage, as well as any additional damage gained from cards like Torn Signpost and Undead Strength. If Bianca (+1 hand damage) strikes with a Meat Cleaver (hand damage, +1), while using Torn Signpost (giving her a base of 2 hand damage) and Undead Strength (an additional +1 hand damage), she will hit for 5 damage (2+1+1+1). However, this damage is not "Hand Damage" (so it cannot be modified by, say, Wolf Claws), nor is it a "Hand Strike" and as such cannot be used under Immortal Grapple (she could neglect to use the Meat Cleaver, and then everything would be legal). Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "I am the world's forgotten boy the one who searches and destroys." -Iggy Pop

Johan Wirde wrote: > > I'm trying to make sense of all the modifications and clarifications to > the rules. Some things do strike me as odd. > > Some weapons explicitly adds to the vampires hand damage, others just > give the user a new base damage. (Bastard Sword lets the user inflict 2 > damage each strike, Meat Cleaver gives the user +1 hand damage) > > Let's say I have a vampire, Bianca, she has innate 2 hand damage. This > should mean that her Meat Cleaver would inflict 3 hand damage, but her > Bastard Sword inflicts 2 melee damage. Part of the confusion here is that you are looking at a Jyhad Bastard Sword and Bianca. When they printed V:TES the reworded everything so that instead of saying 2 HD they say +1 HD. So the V:TES bastard sword says +1 HD and Bianca says +1 HD. > Any cards affecting hand-strikes should be usable with Meat Cleaver, but > not Bastard Sword. The strikes that can be used with Melee weapons say so (eg. Undead Strength). > Ok, so far everything makes some kind of sense. But then I read the > official rulings: > > -Damage (Combat) > Hand damage: damage from a hand strike. e.g. Damage from a Bastard Sword > is *not* hand damage. [LSJ 970224] > > This rule works fine, since Bastard Sword gives a new "base damage" = 2. > But what about Meat Cleaver or Brass Knuckles? These weapons explicitly > adds to hand damage. Let us see if the ruling on hand strike will > clarify things for us... > > -Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based > on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged > damage-dealing innate strike. [LSJ 970224] > Yes this is confusing. Hand damage and Hand Strike are completely different things. Hand damage is a term used to determine the *amount* of damage you can do. A Hand *Strike* or Weapon Strike is a term to determine *how* you are damaging. This comes into play with certain cards that modify or relate to a Hand *Strike*. For instance, "Claws of the Dead" makes a vampires hand *strike* aggravated. Immortal Grapple allows only Hand *Strikes* to be used. I hope this clears things up. When I finnaly figured out this rule I was very disappointed. I had been playing a Gangrel deck and using Claws of the Dead with a Bang Naka (+2 HD). :( Kevin

Johan Wirde wrote: > I'm trying to make sense of all the modifications and clarifications to > the rules. Some things do strike me as odd. Yeah, the cards' mis-matched templates will do that to you. :-) > Some weapons explicitly adds to the vampires hand damage, others just > give the user a new base damage. (Bastard Sword lets the user inflict 2 > damage each strike, Meat Cleaver gives the user +1 hand damage) No weapons simply add to the minion's hand damage, despite what the card texts often imply. All weapons' damage bonuses only apply when striking with the weapon. (Incidentally, all of the Melee Weapons from Jyhad have been rewritten to do "+X" damage each strike rather than "N Damage" - where X is N-1, of course). > Let's say I have a vampire, Bianca, she has innate 2 hand damage. This > should mean that her Meat Cleaver would inflict 3 hand damage, but her > Bastard Sword inflicts 2 melee damage. Bianca has errata to have "+1 hand damage" (and all other Jyhad vampires with 2 hand damage have the same errata). She would inflict 3 damage when striking with either the Meat Cleaver or the Bastard Sword. > Any cards affecting hand-strikes should be usable with Meat Cleaver, but > not Bastard Sword. Any cards affecting the minion's base hand damage (like Torn Signpost, Fists of Death, Ritual Challenge) and cards that affect melee-weapon strikes (Lucky Blow) are usable with either weapon. > Ok, so far everything makes some kind of sense. But then I read the > official rulings: > > -Damage (Combat) > Hand damage: damage from a hand strike. e.g. Damage from a Bastard Sword > is *not* hand damage. [LSJ 970224] > > This rule works fine, since Bastard Sword gives a new "base damage" = 2. > But what about Meat Cleaver or Brass Knuckles? These weapons explicitly > adds to hand damage. Let us see if the ruling on hand strike will > clarify things for us... They only do so when striking, and the resulting damage is not "hand damage", but rather "melee weapon damage". The amount is based on the minion's hand damage, but it is not hand damage itself. > -Hand Strike: any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based > on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged > damage-dealing innate strike. [LSJ 970224] > > ?????? > A Hand Strike is a non-weapon strike... Hmm. Does this mean that an > attack with Meat Cleaver is "hand damage", but not "Hand Strike"? Yes. > No, > that can't be, 'cause hand damage is damage from a hand strike. Meat > Cleaver is a weapon that adds to "hand damage", but "hand damage" can't > be inflicted with weapons. Then what does the +1 mean? Does it add to > the user's hand damage and then convert the damage to melee damage? The latter is absolutely correct - well done. > Does Bianca really inflict 3 damage with Meat Cleaver? Yes. > If this is the case, is there anything that will prevent Bianca to use > Fists of Death to get +hand damage and then use Meat Cleaver to convert > the damage to melee damage and adding a much needed extra point of > damage? No (unless she is restricted to using "hand strikes" - like when Immortal Grapple is in effect). -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Searchable database of official card text, errata, and rulings: http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/rulemonger.cgi/powersearch