FN reprints

Now I have seen all the new cards in FN, but what are the reprints? I haven't seen a list of them at all.. Please post. / Nick

In article <eAkoOzFng31iXg...@4ax.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] >Reprints? Yes, reprints. gomi and now you know as much as you did before -- Yes, I believe but I'd rather not pray What I believe in I'd rather not say, baby

In message <eAkoOzFng31iXg...@4ax.com>, Dorian <bond...@home.com> writes >Reprints? Reprints are found in the starters. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D "You reinstall Dial-Up Networking. The Elf screams and becomes EBD690ECD7A1F an icon. *** CONGRATULATIONS! *** You completed the BT Internet B457CA213D7E6 Helpdesk training course in 15 out of a possible 9000 moves." 68C3695D623D5D

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:5dyua7CC...@obeah.demon.co.uk... > In message <eAkoOzFng31iXg...@4ax.com>, Dorian > <bond...@home.com> writes > >Reprints? > > Reprints are found in the starters. > The big reprint is the Dreams of the Sphinx in the Giovanni starter, along with the Parthenon. Assamites got the Kali's Fang as expected, and the Setites got a Temptation. The Ravnos I haven't taken a good look at, but I did see a Sense Dep. IMHO, Dreams of the Sphinx should not have been reprinted. At least not in an exclusive starter. I know there was a long thread about this in the past, but I am curious... What do people think about the DotS being in the Giovanni starter? oAFLORD aka Thomas Kuster VEKN Prince of Caledon

[snip] > > The big reprint is the Dreams of the Sphinx in the Giovanni starter, along > with the Parthenon. > > Assamites got the Kali's Fang as expected, and the Setites got a Temptation. The setites got a Form as well. yay! > The Ravnos I haven't taken a good look at, but I did see a Sense Dep. > > IMHO, Dreams of the Sphinx should not have been reprinted. At least not in > an exclusive starter. I know there was a long thread about this in the > past, but I am curious... Why shouldn't it have been reprinted? It was a good thing IMO as it gives new players access to one of the great cards in the game. it shouldn't just be reserved for those of us who've been playing for years. > > What do people think about the DotS being in the Giovanni starter? > I think it would have made more sense thematically to have been in the setite starter but the setites got a lot of good stuff already.

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> escribió en el mensaje news:5dyua7CC...@obeah.demon.co.uk... > In message <eAkoOzFng31iXg...@4ax.com>, Dorian > <bond...@home.com> writes > >Reprints? > > Reprints are found in the starters. > Reprints in the Ravnos Deck: Daring the Dawn Scorpion Sting KISS OF RA Force of Will Sensory Deprivation Terror Frenzy ...and a couple more commons/not so demanded cards... Tom, Mad&Co

> > > Reprints in the Ravnos Deck: > Daring the Dawn > Scorpion Sting > KISS OF RA > Force of Will > Sensory Deprivation > Terror Frenzy > > ...and a couple more commons/not so demanded cards... > Yeah, things like Heidelberg Castle? Jeroen

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:53:44 -0400, oaflord wrote: >What do people think about the DotS being in the Giovanni starter? Poor theme-wise. Should have been in any FN starter but that one. Me, I don't see why people get so excited about this card. I have several copies but don't like it enough to put in a deck. Andrew

i had no sensory dep but song in the dark in my ravnos starters!!!!!!!! Stefan jeroen rombouts <jeroen....@pandora.be> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: OK1W6.33613$mR5.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be... [ quoted text not captured ]

Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote in message news:BB62DE882FB57518.078BF5FB...@lp.airnews.net... > Me, I don't see why people get so excited about this card. I have > several copies but don't like it enough to put in a deck. > > Andrew Andrew... What do you want as I will gladly trade your "useless" cards away from you ;-) [ quoted text not captured ]

jeroen rombouts <jeroen....@pandora.be> wrote in message news:OK1W6.33613$mR5.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be... > Yeah, things like Heidelberg Castle? > Hey! Don't mess with the Castle! It has its uses, and if you don't need it in a deck (strategically wrong for the deck) then you fear it on the table... oAFLORD

"Stefan Ferenci" <a950...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:9gaeqq$2rjg$1...@www.univie.ac.at... > i had no sensory dep but song in the dark in my ravnos starters!!!!!!!! > Me too, along with the Sens dep. Full list of the reprints in my Ravnos starter (except vamps) : Master: Chimerstry, Park Hunting Ground, Animalism, Fortitude, Heidelberg Castle, Blood Doll, Guardian Angel, Ravnos Carnival, Ravnos Cache, Fortune Teller Shop, Short-Term Investment, London Evening Star, Inbase Discotek. Animalism: Scorpion Sting, Guard Dogs, Cat's Guidance, Rat's warning, Song of Serenity, Terror Frenzy, Army of Rats, Drawing Out The Beast, Song in the Dark. Chimerstry: Horrid Reality, Apparition, Blessing of Durga Syn, Far Fatuus, The Trick of Danya, Mass Reality, Fata Morgana, Sensory Deprivation, Ignis Fatuus, Illusions of the Kindred. Fortitude: Daring the Dawn, Force of Will, Restoration, The Kiss of Ra, Rolling with the Punches, Superior Mettle, Resilience, Rapid healing. Allies: Rom Gypsy Equipment: Laptop Computer, Bang Nakh, Palatial Estate, Saturday-Night Special, Blood Tears of Kephran. Misc.: Dead-End Alley, Purity of the Beast (why reprint wallpaper?), Trap

"oaflord" <oaf...@sprint.ca> wrote in message news:XM3W6.4665$F42....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca... [ quoted text not captured ] Ever heard of irony? hint: it has nothing to do with a metal of some kind.

In message <BB62DE882FB57518.078BF5FB...@lp.airnews.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes <Dreams of the Sphinx> >Me, I don't see why people get so excited about this card. I have >several copies but don't like it enough to put in a deck. Playing the game, rather than sniping from the sidelines, would reveal its utility. [ quoted text not captured ]

> <Dreams of the Sphinx> > > >Me, I don't see why people get so excited about this card. I have > >several copies but don't like it enough to put in a deck. > > Playing the game, rather than sniping from the sidelines, would reveal > its utility. I see it used mostly for card cycling, though I use it more for the extra transfer myself. During the Pre-Release we had at one time a player use a Visit From the Capuchin and a DotS to get a 13 hand size! OTOH, I don't put it in my decks that often, though that might be because I only have 1 copy (at least until I get the Giovanni starter ;-), and don't bother to move it to whatever deck I'm using at the time. BTW, a question about DotS: can DotS be tapped before the start of the untap phase, but after the last turn has ended? So you'd tap once for 2 more cards, untap during the untap phase, and tap again for a total of 4 extra cards until the end of your turn. Flux

In message <3b28...@212.18.160.197>, Flux <fl...@netc.pt> writes >I see it used mostly for card cycling, though I use it more for the extra >transfer myself. During the Pre-Release we had at one time a player use a >Visit From the Capuchin and a DotS to get a 13 hand size! Add Elder Library, Cassandra, Aura Reading, Christanius Lionel, a second copy of Dreams played during the master phase (the other copy was burned earlier on in the master phase for a third tap)....... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:19:18 +0100, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] WABT. YHL. HAND. -- Derek

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:NE5zs5Tv...@obeah.demon.co.uk... > In message <3b28...@212.18.160.197>, Flux <fl...@netc.pt> writes > >I see it used mostly for card cycling, though I use it more for the extra > >transfer myself. During the Pre-Release we had at one time a player use a > >Visit From the Capuchin and a DotS to get a 13 hand size! > > Add Elder Library, Cassandra, Aura Reading, Christanius Lionel, a second > copy of Dreams played during the master phase (the other copy was burned > earlier on in the master phase for a third tap)....... ... and then use The Parthenon for a second master phase and play Deal with the Devil. :-) Flux

jeroen rombouts <jeroen....@pandora.be> wrote in message news:TT3W6.33778$mR5.4...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be... > Ever heard of irony? hint: it has nothing to do with a metal of some kind. > > Ahhh, my bad... around where I live people use ;-) for sarcasm and irony... guess I'll have to turn on my other brain so I don't insult anyone else... ;-) oAFLORD

On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:17:29 -0400, oaflord wrote: >Andrew... What do you want as I will gladly trade your "useless" cards away >from you ;-) Giant's Blood maybe but I'm in no rush. Fleshing out the stats for winning decks a little more, I see that Dreams seems to do quite well so I'd better hang onto them for now. 164 Minion Tap 153 Blood Doll 90 Sudden Reversal 48 Dreams of the Sphinx 31 Tribute to the Master 27 The Parthenon 18 Giant's Blood 5 Ascendance 4 Short Term Investment 4 Powerbase 4 Fame 3 Blood Puppy 0 Protected Investment 0 Secret Horde 0 Succubus Club After the recent hoohah, it's interesting that Succubus Club scores a duck. Is it really that bad? I'd have rated it better than Dreams. Andrew

In message <A2C1E86B5F913FDA.5EA80B5D...@lp.airnews.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes >After the recent hoohah, it's interesting that Succubus Club scores a >duck. Is it really that bad? No, but it is socially difficult to use. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:14:00 +0100, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: >0 Succubus Club > >After the recent hoohah, it's interesting that Succubus Club scores a >duck. Is it really that bad? I'd have rated it better than Dreams. It requires either the cooperation of one other person, AND requires that there be another person out there with something to give you. This is usually not difficult to find up until the finals, but IN the finals it ends up being a lot more tricky to manage things; people are normally a bit more wary of making deals. I've always been vaguely curious about making a Potence or Assamite deck that used the Succubus Club and toasted vampires for pay. Probably not the BEST way to go, really, but amusing. -- Derek

"Flux" <fl...@netc.pt> wrote in message news:<3b28...@212.18.160.197>... > "James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message > news:NE5zs5Tv...@obeah.demon.co.uk... > > In message <3b28...@212.18.160.197>, Flux <fl...@netc.pt> writes > > >...we had at one time a player use a > > >Visit From the Capuchin and a DotS to get a 13 hand size! > > Add Elder Library, Cassandra, Aura Reading, Christanius Lionel, a second > > copy of Dreams played during the master phase (the other copy was burned > > earlier on in the master phase for a third tap)....... > ... and then use The Parthenon for a second master phase and play Deal with > the Devil. :-) :-) No, no. Elder Library, Cassandra and Christanius in play. On your master phase, tap an old Dreams for a card, Dreams is burned. Play another Dreams, tap it for a card. Tap the Parthenon, and NOW play Visit from the Capuchin. That gives you a hand size of 19. Use that Haven Uncovered you played last turn and play Death of My Conscience at superior. Throw away your remaining 18 cards. Your hand damage is now 37 for the remainder of the combat. A tricky combo to set up, and worthless against mild fortitude and dodges, but sure to amuse the table.

>:-) No, no. Elder Library, Cassandra and Christanius in play. On your >master phase, tap an old Dreams for a card, Dreams is burned. Play >another Dreams, tap it for a card. Tap the Parthenon, and NOW play >Visit from the Capuchin. That gives you a hand size of 19. You can only burn up to 4 cards this way due to explicit card text: The Death of My Conscience [AH] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 3 blood Discipline: Potence Requires a vampire with a capacity above 5. Do not replace this card until after combat. After range has been chosen, burn up to 4 cards in your hand. For each card you burn this way, this vampire gets +1 <strength> for the remainder of this combat. Do not replace these cards until after combat. (S) As above, but this vampire gets +2 <strength> for the remainder of combat for each card you burn this way. Halcyan 2

> > > >...we had at one time a player use a > > > >Visit From the Capuchin and a DotS to get a 13 hand size! > > > Add Elder Library, Cassandra, Aura Reading, Christanius Lionel, a second > > > copy of Dreams played during the master phase (the other copy was burned > > > earlier on in the master phase for a third tap)....... > > ... and then use The Parthenon for a second master phase and play Deal with > > the Devil. :-) > :-) No, no. Elder Library, Cassandra and Christanius in play. On your > master phase, tap an old Dreams for a card, Dreams is burned. Play > another Dreams, tap it for a card. Tap the Parthenon, and NOW play > Visit from the Capuchin. That gives you a hand size of 19. Use that > Haven Uncovered you played last turn and play Death of My Conscience > at superior. Throw away your remaining 18 cards. Your hand damage is > now 37 for the remainder of the combat. A tricky combo to set up, and > worthless against mild fortitude and dodges, but sure to amuse the > table. Sorry, not possible. The Death of My Conscience puts a limit of 4 on the number of cards you can burn. :-( ...and playing a Deal with the Devil would burn the Visit from the Capuchin immediately, so there's not much point to it, except to burn up your library real fast. Hmm, maybe with Pochtli and Waste Management Operation.... ;-) Flux

This actually is a viable play? NM "Flux" <fl...@netc.pt> wrote in message news:3b28...@212.18.160.197... [ quoted text not captured ]

Flux wrote: > BTW, a question about DotS: can DotS be tapped before the start of the untap > phase, but after the last turn has ended? So you'd tap once for 2 more > cards, untap during the untap phase, and tap again for a total of 4 extra > cards until the end of your turn. No. It's either tapped on the previous turn or on this one. It cannot be tapped on this (your) turn before you untap your cards. [4] -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Nephandus Mage wrote: > > This actually is a viable play? What is? Please quote just the context your post is following, and *follow* the context (i.e., post your new text below the quoted text, as per USENET Netiquette standards) [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3B29400D...@white-wolf.com... > Flux wrote: > > BTW, a question about DotS: can DotS be tapped before the start of the untap > > phase, but after the last turn has ended? So you'd tap once for 2 more > > cards, untap during the untap phase, and tap again for a total of 4 extra > > cards until the end of your turn. > > No. It's either tapped on the previous turn or on this one. It cannot be > tapped > on this (your) turn before you untap your cards. [4] > But you can tap it during your untap phase, burn it because it's the third use. Play a new DotS and tap that one too. For a total of 11. right? Jeroen

[ quoted text not captured ] Sure. (card text) [ quoted text not captured ]

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote > > WABT. YHL. HAND. What the hell does this mean??? Arrgh. I finally figured out the reason behind the term 'Horse Brutality' (by saying it out loud heh)... but someone seriously needs to put together an FAQ for shit like this. Even if it's just for the arcane language Gomi and Derek use :) Cheers, WES

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:43:56 -0400, "Wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote: > >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote >> >> WABT. YHL. HAND. > >What the hell does this mean??? Arrgh. ..."We Are Being Trolled." =) suffice it to say that I don't think Andrew's question regarding Dreams was ENTIRELY sincere - most people latch onto the hand-cycling and transfer boost aspects of it pretty quickly. >I finally figured out the reason behind the term 'Horse Brutality' (by >saying it out loud heh)... but someone seriously needs to put together an >FAQ for shit like this. Even if it's just for the arcane language Gomi and >Derek use :) #1: Never refer to a card by its correct name. There's always something more amusing. ;) (Uncle Hotep!) Besides, it wouldn't be any fun to be coherent. =) -- Derek

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:42:31 -0400, Derek Ray wrote: >suffice it to say that I don't think Andrew's question regarding >Dreams was ENTIRELY sincere - most people latch onto the hand-cycling >and transfer boost aspects of it pretty quickly. It was just an aside. My main point was that it was odd to have the card in the Giovanni deck as the Sphinx is in Egypt not Italy. I had just come from seeing the Return of the Mummy which was full of similar geographical howlers. I contemplated buying a Giovanni starter at the game store yesterday but decided against - I have little use for the reprints like DotS. I spent my money on other good stuff instead: Scrye - with an article on the Brujah by Mike Nudd. He, at least, knows enough to tell us to use Immortal Grapple in our rush decks. Fairy Meat - now this is a game I want to play at the summer cons. It's in even poorer taste than VTES. Pokethulhu - this has some good laugh-out-loud lines in it. The creatures "Tindaloo" and "Jigglypolyp" had me spluttering over my shish kabob. Star Trek Voyager CCG - I had high hopes for this new stand-alone set but they were soon dashed when I opened the starter. Who on earth wants to play the Kazon or the Vedians? And, of course, I didn't recognise a single one of the Federation crew. No doubt the mains are ultra-rare, *sigh*. Andrew

In message <ih0kitgju7f9h8sfq...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes >#1: Never refer to a card by its correct name. There's always >something more amusing. ;) (Uncle Hotep!) I'm just annoyed that Hannigan isn't female. Ah, for the joys of being able to chant lines from Annie at it. I bet it was that nasty LSJ person who spoiled our fun. *sticks tongue out* Of course, we will have Pizza Ghouls, I'm sure. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <8E8677A8FD2C6708.F3C30C83...@lp.airnews.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes >Fairy Meat - now this is a game I want to play at the summer cons. >It's in even poorer taste than VTES. URRyanSDanceyAICMFP [ quoted text not captured ]

"Wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote in message news:<9gc3o...@enews3.newsguy.com>... > "Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote > > WABT. YHL. HAND. > What the hell does this mean??? Arrgh. We are being trolled. You have lost. Have a nice day.

oaflord wrote: > > IMHO, Dreams of the Sphinx should not have been reprinted. At least not in > an exclusive starter. I know there was a long thread about this in the > past, but I am curious... > > What do people think about the DotS being in the Giovanni starter? I'm curious why you would think anything was wrong with that. The only thing that hits me is that if DotS proves to be a popular enough card, it might make the Giovanni starter overly popular. If so, it might cause retailers a lot of problems deciding how to deal with people wanting them to break into new starter boxes to buy the Giovanni starters out of them while the starters from their already-opened boxes sit around. But I really don't think DotS is sought after _that_ much so it doesn't worry me. It's actually a good thing, IMO. The cards are so outrageously overpriced on EBAY auctions people can get them to use them in decks. So here's a new supply of them to help take the edge off the demand. Use 'em all you want, folks! It's not that good of a card... Fred

"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:53:44 -0400, oaflord wrote: > > >What do people think about the DotS being in the Giovanni starter? > > Poor theme-wise. Should have been in any FN starter but that one. Actually I agree that one. I was thinking they might have been challenged to figure out a popular card for the Giovanni deck which _was_ appropriate, theme-wise. It was probably a demand-balanced move. > Me, I don't see why people get so excited about this card. I have > several copies but don't like it enough to put in a deck. Yep, that's me, too. Though recently I have started to use it for it's hand-size increase function. It works really good in decks that have lots of moving parts to help cycle cards. Sort of a second "The Barrens" type of card. Fred

Derek Ray wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:43:56 -0400, "Wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote: > > > > >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote > >> > >> WABT. YHL. HAND. > > > >What the hell does this mean??? Arrgh. > > ..."We Are Being Trolled." =) > > suffice it to say that I don't think Andrew's question regarding > Dreams was ENTIRELY sincere - most people latch onto the hand-cycling > and transfer boost aspects of it pretty quickly. Which question was that? You just quoted Andrew stating he didn't bother to use the DotS cards he has. Nor did it sound like a troll to me. As for DotS, I agree the hand-cycling is cool if you need that. Though two cards over three turns for one pool and an MPA is not as good as The Barrens in that sense. (Nor should it be, as a game design principal.) And the transfer boost thing is somewhat mild (one pool/turn) and limited - like Info Highway, only useful in those parts of the game you're using your transfers for anything. Otherwise it's a Short Term Investment that uses transfers instead of MPAs. And STI is a pretty lousy card for the most part. Why some people are so entranced by this card has always been an utter mystery to me. Fred

Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote in message news:<8E8677A8FD2C6708.F3C30C83...@lp.airnews.net>... > On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:42:31 -0400, Derek Ray wrote: > > >suffice it to say that I don't think Andrew's question regarding > >Dreams was ENTIRELY sincere - most people latch onto the hand-cycling > >and transfer boost aspects of it pretty quickly. > > It was just an aside. My main point was that it was odd to have the > card in the Giovanni deck as the Sphinx is in Egypt not Italy. I had > just come from seeing the Return of the Mummy which was full of > similar geographical howlers. There is no "blood curse" that restricts the Giovanni clan's influence to Italy. Indeed, their influence extends much farther than the boot. Howl away. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:03:48 +0100, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: >Fairy Meat - now this is a game I want to play at the summer cons. >It's in even poorer taste than VTES. Got to play it last August, actually. It can be a screaming riot. And you really want to get it going over next to the hard-core WWII miniatures guys... especially since it comes with little fairy wings you can tape to the backs of your EXISTING miniatures. =) >Pokethulhu - this has some good laugh-out-loud lines in it. The >creatures "Tindaloo" and "Jigglypolyp" had me spluttering over my >shish kabob. I've heard many raucous good things about this, too, but I haven't seen it yet. =( -- Derek

In article <eb4eb7f8.01061...@posting.google.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote in message news:<8E8677A8FD2C6708.F3C30C83...@lp.airnews.net>... >> On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:42:31 -0400, Derek Ray wrote: >> >> >suffice it to say that I don't think Andrew's question regarding >> >Dreams was ENTIRELY sincere - most people latch onto the hand-cycling >> >and transfer boost aspects of it pretty quickly. >> >> It was just an aside. My main point was that it was odd to have the >> card in the Giovanni deck as the Sphinx is in Egypt not Italy. I had >> just come from seeing the Return of the Mummy which was full of >> similar geographical howlers. > >There is no "blood curse" that restricts the Giovanni clan's influence >to Italy. Indeed, their influence extends much farther than the boot. >Howl away. Not to mention the strong Napoleonic presence in Egypt in days past. France isn't all that far from Italy; I daresay the Giovanni might have been involved in Napoleon's little adventures. Trinkets from faraway lands sell for a nice profit, and the Giovanni are merchant princes after all. gomi -- Yes, I believe but I'd rather not pray What I believe in I'd rather not say, baby

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:47:49 GMT, Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote: >As for DotS, I agree the hand-cycling is cool if you need that. Though >two cards over three turns for one pool and an MPA is not as good as >The Barrens in that sense. (Nor should it be, as a game design principal.) No... it's BETTER. It's not hand-cycling, it's temporary handsize increase, and at the end of your turn, you get to ditch all the useless cards that have accumulated in your way. Normally its REAL effect (repair hand-jam) will last until at least your next untap, at which point you can tap it again. >Why some people are so entranced by this card has always been an utter >mystery to me. - It can't be got rid of without contesting, meaning you can save it until you need it. - MANY times I have tapped it to grab 2 extra cards, and drawn into the oust. Having a hand-size of 9 can often make the difference between the perfect combo being visible in front of you, and the perfect combo minus one card you're hoping to draw into as it gets played. - Did I mention it can't be got rid of without contesting? -- Derek

Derek Ray wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:47:49 GMT, Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> > wrote: > > >As for DotS, I agree the hand-cycling is cool if you need that. Though > >two cards over three turns for one pool and an MPA is not as good as > >The Barrens in that sense. (Nor should it be, as a game design principal.) > > No... it's BETTER. It's not hand-cycling, it's temporary handsize > increase, and at the end of your turn, you get to ditch all the > useless cards that have accumulated in your way. It's not better, at least not for the specific function of cycling cards. Handsize is an added advantage useful for something else. The Barrens is better for cycling cards. This, in a nutshell, is the drawback of DotS. It does lots of things, just none of them all that well. I keep finding better master cards for whatever I need master cards to do in a deck so I seldom find I have room for it. I was just mentioning that recently, I've noticed the card cycling function is actually good enough to use in decks that really need that function. But _after_ The Barrens is already in the deck... > >Why some people are so entranced by this card has always been an utter > >mystery to me. > > - It can't be got rid of without contesting, meaning you can save it > until you need it. ... > - Did I mention it can't be got rid of without contesting? Ah, big deal. I count cards that _can_ be gotten rid of through some lame directed action by any minion on the board to be totally lame cards, unless they have some compensating power which most of those cards don't. So if that's what you're comparing it to, those are cards that make any decent master look good. If you mean it's not a location so it can't be Arsoned, Unnatural Disastered, Kine Dominated, Disputed Territoried, Arikaed and so forth, maybe but that's pretty minor. Those things happen but not very often. Fred

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:37:40 GMT, Frederick Scott wrote: >Actually I agree that one. I was thinking they might have been >challenged to figure out a popular card for the Giovanni deck which >_was_ appropriate, theme-wise. It was probably a demand-balanced >move. We can't leave this nit-pick half-done. Theme-wise, the Dreams of the Sphinx should be switched with the Catacombs from the Followers of Set deck. The historical Catacombs are in Rome and are appropriate for necromantic vampires like the Giovanni. Demand & balance-wise, it seems good to split up Dreams of the Sphinx and the Parthenon. Andrew

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:06:07 GMT, Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote: >Derek Ray wrote: >> >> >As for DotS, I agree the hand-cycling is cool if you need that. Though >> >two cards over three turns for one pool and an MPA is not as good as >> >The Barrens in that sense. (Nor should it be, as a game design principal.) >> >> No... it's BETTER. It's not hand-cycling, it's temporary handsize >> increase, and at the end of your turn, you get to ditch all the >> useless cards that have accumulated in your way. > >It's not better, at least not for the specific function of cycling cards. >Handsize is an added advantage useful for something else. The Barrens is >better for cycling cards. Dreams will allow you to, over the course of its lifespan, draw six extra cards "early", with the corresponding later discard of six cards. Barrens will allow you to, once a turn, discard a card and draw up another one. Over the long term, Barrens will move more cards, and it's free. The problem is, the long term isn't always useful - when you're wedged, you need to move LOTS of cards at once. Dreams provides you a way to immediately get your next two cards (without throwing any away), which gives you twice the chance of getting a card you need to help unwedge your hand (Bum's Rush or a PA come to mind), which will give you plenty of MORE chances, as you are then able to play a bunch of cards. Barrens forces you to find something to dump. If your hand is hosed, this isn't usually a problem, but being able to "see first" is always nice, so you know to dump the duplicates you're about to draw. >was just mentioning that recently, I've noticed the card cycling function is >actually good enough to use in decks that really need that function. But >_after_ The Barrens is already in the deck... If I were you, I'd try it the other way for awhile and see for yourself -- put a Dreams in every deck. Obviously, you normally want to tap it at the start of your own turn to enhance your offense for that turn, but sometimes there's no need to do so. >> - Did I mention it can't be got rid of without contesting? > >Ah, big deal. I count cards that _can_ be gotten rid of through some lame >directed action by any minion on the board to be totally lame cards, unless Not what I was referring to. =) >they have some compensating power which most of those cards don't. So if that's >what you're comparing it to, those are cards that make any decent master look >good. If you mean it's not a location so it can't be Arsoned, Unnatural Disastered, >Kine Dominated, Disputed Territoried, Arikaed and so forth, maybe but that's pretty >minor. Those things happen but not very often. Oh, yes, they do. At least around here, where people have realized that it's ALWAYS good to take locations away from someone, whether it's with Arson, Rampage, DT, or Kine Dominance. So we're seeing a lot of "1 or 2 arsons in every deck!" anymore. I'm willing to bet the national metagame sees a major shift that way as well, as more of the Nifty Locations land in everyone's decks. Not to mention that people will gratuitously cross-table contest the Barrens around here, since it's a free Master - you play it, and if you don't feel like keeping it when it comes back around, then you just yield. Dreams costs a pool, meaning it's NOT a free contest, and since everyone's Dreams eventually goes away, it's safe to hang onto and just play your own, instead of contesting. -- Derek

"Andrew S. Davidson" <a...@csi.com> wrote in message news:8E8677A8FD2C6708.F3C30C83...@lp.airnews.net... > On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:42:31 -0400, Derek Ray wrote: <Snip> > Star Trek Voyager CCG - I had high hopes for this new stand-alone set > but they were soon dashed when I opened the starter. Who on earth > wants to play the Kazon or the Vedians? And, of course, I didn't > recognise a single one of the Federation crew. No doubt the mains are > ultra-rare, *sigh*. > > Andrew Since you posted this to rec.games.trading-cards.startrek, I feel obliged to point out some minor correctiions. The Crew members are of normal rarity, all of the bridge crew have the same chance of being pulled as normal rares. The ultra-rare in the Voyager set is "Pendari Champion" played by "The Rock" of professional wrestling fame. There are more federation people than just the Voyager crew in the set, the ship "USS Equinox" has it's crew (Two of which are rare) as well. Since the bridge crew make up (say) 10 of the 40 rares by proportion buying a starter with 2 rares has only a 50/50 chance of getting a voyager "Recognisable" crew member and only 1 in 8 of getting both rares as "recognisable". Incidentally most of the article seemed not to be related to Star Trek at all, I would request that in future you split your postings into sections and post the relevant sections to each board. HIghwayman(of Kurill Prime)

Highwayman wrote: (Re: Andrew Davidson's post) > Incidentally most of the article seemed not to be related to Star Trek at > all, I would request that in future you split your postings into sections > and post the relevant sections to each board. A little common sense, please! Though crossposted articles are often decried, there are times they make sense. When due to its nature, a post discusses (as Andrew's clearly did) subject material exclusive to two or more different groups, then it's perfectly OK and completely appropriate to crosspost as the intended audience is legitimately of interest to both audiences. (In fact, that particular post might well have been cross-posted to rec.games.trading-cards.misc, as well.) Fred

Derek Ray wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:06:07 GMT, Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> > wrote: > > >Derek Ray wrote: > >> - Did I mention it can't be got rid of without contesting? > > > >Ah, big deal. I count cards that _can_ be gotten rid of through some lame > >directed action by any minion on the board to be totally lame cards, unless > > Not what I was referring to. =) > > >they have some compensating power which most of those cards don't. So if that's > >what you're comparing it to, those are cards that make any decent master look > >good. If you mean it's not a location so it can't be Arsoned, Unnatural Disastered, > >Kine Dominated, Disputed Territoried, Arikaed and so forth, maybe but that's pretty > >minor. Those things happen but not very often. > > Oh, yes, they do. At least around here, where people have realized > that it's ALWAYS good to take locations away from someone, whether > it's with Arson, Rampage, DT, or Kine Dominance. So we're seeing a > lot of "1 or 2 arsons in every deck!" anymore. I'm willing to bet the > national metagame sees a major shift that way as well, as more of the > Nifty Locations land in everyone's decks. I also do stuff like that. But even if everyone at the table has a location hoser in their deck, it's still pretty iffy you'll ever get hit with it. And if you do, having one of your locations be a non-location doesn't fix your problem. If your predator wants to kill something of yours and your DotS isn't available, he'll hit your hunting ground instead. The instances seem pretty rare to me that you only have DotS out and none of your locations and that causes someone to go after someone else's thing instead. It happens, especially in a deck that has few or no locations, which don't tend to be any of my decks. But it doesn't happen enough for me to care much. > Not to mention that people will gratuitously cross-table contest the > Barrens around here, since it's a free Master - you play it, and if > you don't feel like keeping it when it comes back around, then you > just yield. Dreams costs a pool, meaning it's NOT a free contest, and > since everyone's Dreams eventually goes away, it's safe to hang onto > and just play your own, instead of contesting. Again, big deal. The occasional occasional one pool it costs you when someone feels like doing something like and has the opportunity. We sure don't seem to see the same issues come up in our respective metagames. Speaks volumes about the differences in local environments. Probably playing styles, too. Fred

"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:37:40 GMT, Frederick Scott wrote: (...about Andrew's comment that DotS doesn't belong in the Giovanni precon due to it being thematically off for the Giovanni Clan:) > >Actually I agree that one. I was thinking they might have been > >challenged to figure out a popular card for the Giovanni deck which > >_was_ appropriate, theme-wise. It was probably a demand-balanced > >move. > > We can't leave this nit-pick half-done. Theme-wise, the Dreams of the > Sphinx should be switched with the Catacombs from the Followers of Set > deck. The historical Catacombs are in Rome and are appropriate for > necromantic vampires like the Giovanni. Demand & balance-wise, it > seems good to split up Dreams of the Sphinx and the Parthenon. I don't agree. The Parthenon is a great card, no question. But it's not a rare in Ancient Hearts. Only uncommon. Meaning there's a lot more of them out there for sale or trade. And Catacombs are common. So the fact is, neither of these cards for practical reasons is going to be the draw DotS is. Followers of Set already have Temptation and Form of Corruption, I believe. Both are in-demand, undersupplied Ancient Hearts rares. Due to the requirements of these cards, they only make sense to be in the FoS deck. Throw in DotS and you have a real problem, IMO. Unfortunate though it is that such things have to influence the makeup of precons, it doesn't do to ignore it. I suspect it would leave a bunch of Giovanni decks on retail store shelves gathering dust long after the FoS decks are gone. That's a problem for a number of reasons. Fred

James Coupe wrote: > I'm just annoyed that Hannigan isn't female. > > Ah, for the joys of being able to chant lines from Annie at it. I bet > it was that nasty LSJ person who spoiled our fun. Sorry, but he is male in the WoD source material as well. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8E8677A8FD2C6708.F3C30C83...@lp.airnews.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: <Dreams of the Sphinx in the Giovanni Starter> >It was just an aside. My main point was that it was odd to have the >card in the Giovanni deck as the Sphinx is in Egypt not Italy. That's why it's only a dream. Actually having the Sphinx itself in the Giovanni deck would be wrong... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail: santiago [at] umug [dot] org || Web: http://santiago.umug.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Ceci n'est pas un 'sig block'."

>>#1: Never refer to a card by its correct name. There's always >>something more amusing. ;) (Uncle Hotep!) > >I'm just annoyed that Hannigan isn't female. It's interesting that you mention this Mr. Coupe. This goes back to a problem I've been comtemplating for quite some time and one that has only been exacerbated by Final Nights. However great the Tremere Antitribu are, they seem tobe remarkably sexist. Out of all 13 vampires there are only 3 females. Compare the 3/13 to the Camarilla Tremere's 13/24. The other Sabbat clans also have a much larger female proportion. Something must be done. There must be balance - so print more female !Tremere vampires! Halcyan 2

>> I'm just annoyed that Hannigan isn't female. >> >> Ah, for the joys of being able to chant lines from Annie at it. I bet >> it was that nasty LSJ person who spoiled our fun. > >Sorry, but he is male in the WoD source material as well. I don't suppose you know which sourcebooks he is in? And I also suppose he bit the big one in Mexico City with most of his buddies? (Unless Nickolai wasn't the last "last of the !Tremere"...) Halcyan 2

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Sorry, but he is male in the WoD source material as well. Hmmm... I don't recognize the name. What publication did Hannigan appear in? It's interesting just how much back-material WW dredged up for this expansion. Marianna is from the old Giovanni Chronicles. She was embraced in an emergency situation as cannon fodder (along with the other PCs) and subsequently abandoned by her clan. Other vampires are from Berlin by Night and Montreal by Night (Christianus Lionel). Too bad they wouldn't give us 'Toy'. Cheers, WES

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 22:27:32 GMT, Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote: >Derek Ray wrote: >> Oh, yes, they do. At least around here, where people have realized >> that it's ALWAYS good to take locations away from someone, whether >> it's with Arson, Rampage, DT, or Kine Dominance. So we're seeing a >> lot of "1 or 2 arsons in every deck!" anymore. I'm willing to bet the >> national metagame sees a major shift that way as well, as more of the >> Nifty Locations land in everyone's decks. > >I also do stuff like that. But even if everyone at the table has a location hoser >in their deck, it's still pretty iffy you'll ever get hit with it. And if you do, I would expect to get hit with my predator's Arson as soon as it comes up, actually. Depending on which locations I happen to have out, possibly my prey's as well. And Disputed Territory is OFTEN used for a cross-table grab; you simply pick the best location out there, and attempt to repossess it. >having one of your locations be a non-location doesn't fix your problem. If your You're missing it. Dreams is a guaranteed 3-time use as soon as it comes up in my deck (barring contesting). The Barrens can be stolen or Arsoned, and often will be. It's not that there's even a problem; it's just that if I want to put one Dreams in every deck, there's nothing at ALL wrong with actually doing it. - It's not expensive, at one pool. Plus, you can tap it immediately, add a blood to an uncontrolled vamp, and transfer it off... presto, your Dreams was free. Sort of a desperation move, really, but I could see where 1 pool might matter sometimes, and you aren't looking forward more than a couple turns ("get the Dreams out and use it to go fetch pool gain cards next turn"). - It CANNOT be gotten rid of or stolen, unlike the Barrens, Elder Library, and Fraggie. Once you have it out, it's yours unless someone wants to contest it. - It effectively doesn't add to your number of Master slots, same as all the other hand-cyclers. There's no downside to Dreams. That's why it's so damn good. >predator wants to kill something of yours and your DotS isn't available, he'll hit >your hunting ground instead. The instances seem pretty rare to me that you only have That's one less thing that he has the option to whack. Unlike the Barrens or Elder Library, which are frequently EXCELLENT targets (if someone has it out, they probably need it), and provide an instant benefit to any deck that can grab them. >DotS out and none of your locations and that causes someone to go after someone else's >thing instead. It happens, especially in a deck that has few or no locations, which >don't tend to be any of my decks. But it doesn't happen enough for me to care much. It may not cause someone to go after someone else's thing at all. But if it was the Barrens instead, well, that's a "thing" that someone might want and *CAN* get - why give them the option? >> Not to mention that people will gratuitously cross-table contest the >> Barrens around here, since it's a free Master - you play it, and if >> you don't feel like keeping it when it comes back around, then you >> just yield. Dreams costs a pool, meaning it's NOT a free contest, and >> since everyone's Dreams eventually goes away, it's safe to hang onto >> and just play your own, instead of contesting. > >Again, big deal. The occasional occasional one pool it costs you when someone >feels like doing something like and has the opportunity. Unless someone decides to try to hang onto it. Dreams is just much less likely to be contested - easier to let it go away on its own and get your OWN instead of fighting over it. >We sure don't seem to see the same issues come up in our respective metagames. Speaks >volumes about the differences in local environments. Probably playing styles, too. Somewhat. We tend to be pretty brutal about weak points; and locations are frequently a weak point in someone's deck. Nuke their stuff and see what happens. (Matt Bell had a Nosferatu OBF deck with 4 Arsons in it. Really cures you quickly of thinking your location will stick around forever.) -- Derek

"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote > Actually I agree that one. I was thinking they might have been > challenged to figure out a popular card for the Giovanni deck which > _was_ appropriate, theme-wise. It was probably a demand-balanced > move. It may not be appropriate thematically, but it 'synergized' quite well since the Giovanni could just resurrect it as a more-or-less permanent source of income/whathaveyou. I survived the final in the Lansing pre-release by using DOTS three times in this manner. I'd never seen the big deal with this card either... until I tried it out. The key is its versatility, utility and invulnerability. Cheers, WES

Wes wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > Sorry, but he is male in the WoD source material as well. > > Hmmm... I don't recognize the name. What publication did Hannigan appear in? Under a Blood Red Moon. (Which is reprinted in Chicago Chronicals Vol. 2) [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Just to point out the obvious, but there are NO female vampires. There are only formerly female Vampire. Once you enter into the WoD, you become a vampire. Period. Being labeled female or male implies that they can procreate and thus make little vampires, without the hassel Kine and embracing them. Raille not anal at all today

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> > > Under a Blood Red Moon. (Which is reprinted in Chicago Chronicals Vol. 2) Wow! That's an old book too. You know what might be a fun promotion for V:tES? Allow players to submit their idea for a future vampire card based on a character they themselves have played with in the RPG. This might attract more RPG people to V:tES which is a lot more fun anyway. Mine would be something like: Slug -Follower of Set -4 capacity -SER obf pot -Sabbat. Slug cannot bleed or block bleeds. Slug can enter combat with a Camarilla vampire controlled by your predator or prey as a +1 stealth (D) action. Cheers, WES

>It's interesting just how much back-material WW dredged up for this >expansion. Marianna is from the old Giovanni Chronicles. She was embraced in >an emergency situation as cannon fodder (along with the other PCs) and >subsequently abandoned by her clan. > >Other vampires are from Berlin by Night and Montreal by Night (Christianus >Lionel). Too bad they wouldn't give us 'Toy'. Toy? That nasty paraplegic baby? Ewww! (Never liked Montreal By Night myself. Too "crude.") I've previously explained various characters from Berlin By Night but I've found some cards from other sources as well: Club Zombie is a location from Los Angeles By Night Technically, Danny Larkshill, the FoS, is an archon (just like Samat Ramal-Ra), though his card apparently doesn't reflect this. He's an archon under Madame Guil as detailed in Nights of Prophecy. And I could be mistaken but I *thought* Pochtli was one of the notable personalities in the original Giovanni clanbook? (I'll have to check sometime). Halcyan 2

Derek wrote: >>- It's not expensive, at one pool. Plus, you can tap it immediately, add a blood to an uncontrolled vamp, and transfer it off... presto, your Dreams was free. Sort of a desperation move, really, but I could see where 1 pool might matter sometimes, and you aren't looking forward more than a couple turns ("get the Dreams out and use it to go fetch pool gain cards next turn").>> Not a desperation move--that the Dreams is so flexible is half its charm. You draw it on the first turn, use it once or twice to speed up your deck (and gain a little pool to boot.) Draw it late, use it to cycle like mad (it being the best cycler there is), or use it to gain a little pool. At the very worst, it is simply better than a STI. At the best, it is a very flexible, very useful, very survivable master that is always useful. >>- It CANNOT be gotten rid of or stolen, unlike the Barrens, Elder Library, and Fraggie. Once you have it out, it's yours unless someone wants to contest it.>> And the incentive to contest it is minimal. If Ihave a Dreams out, it is likely I will use it soon, after which you can play yours. >>There's no downside to Dreams. That's why it's so damn good.>> And it has many upsides, that you have pointed out. It pays for itself. It can gain you pool. It is the most effective hand cycyling master card out there. It can't be killed. It can't be stolen. It is unlikely to be contested. It can speed up your early game (through transfers). It can save your late game (through hand cycling). Nothing but good. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/bakija6 "She's a hero you see. She's not like us." -Giles

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote > > And I could be mistaken but I *thought* Pochtli was one of the notable > personalities in the original Giovanni clanbook? (I'll have to check sometime). Just looking now... Pochtli, Enzo, Isabel, Ambrogino and Augustus are all Giovanni of Note in the end of the original Giovanni Clanbook (not the revised). Pochtli is the head of the Mexian 'Pisanob' branch of the Giovanni family. Enzo's portrait is obviously from the same source as his card in V:tES and the book makes reference to his position on the board of Pentex. Isabel is a spy/master of disguises who has the curious derangement of needing to drink blood from the severed heads of her victims. (And the image shows her drinking from an upside down head with... get this... a straw! Eww!). Isabel was also featured in the Clan Novel as Chas' mentor. Ambrogino was also in the Giovanni Chronicles and is apparently the right-hand of Augustus. (Which means he has two right hands... hmmm). Ivan Krenyenko, Spider-Killer and Esmerelda are all in the back of the old Ravnos clanbook. Sir Marriot Durban is in the back of the old Setite clanbook. Sennuwy the Promoter is also in Nights of Prophecy, in the Succubus Club section. Her sire (who does not appear) is none other than Ghivran Dalaal! Creepshow Casino is a site featured in the Las Vegas section of the same Nights of Prophecy. (Damn, White-Wolf really made Scott do some research!). In the Montreal section of Nights of Prophecy, Christianus Lionel and Mercy, Knight Inquisitor are featured. The clan novel signature characters also make appearances in every section... Theo Bell, Pieterzoon, Vykos and Lucita. There are others I know... but I'll leave them to someone else. Cheers, WES

Peter D Bakija wrote: > > At the very worst, it is simply better than a STI. Not strictly, of course. STI burns master phase actions whereas Dreams burns transfers. In reality, I'll give you the point with the understanding that STI sucks. So saying it's "simply better than a STI" is pretty much wasting your breath. > At the best, it is a very flexible, very useful, > very survivable master that is always useful. Very flexible is not the same as very useful. It reminds of the "charms" in Magic. (In fact, it may have been designed about the same time the Magic designers were going off on their "charms" kick in several of the expansions around then.) Lots of functions, all of them done better by some other card in the game. If you've got a toolbox deck doesn't know what it needs, perhaps DotS is the way to go. I guess I've never been very comfortable building decks that way. My decks tend to be very focus, very fanatical about whatever they need in their every single master card slot. Dreams seldom measures up. > >>There's no downside to Dreams. That's why it's so damn good.>> > > And it has many upsides, that you have pointed out. But none of them go that high up. So its downside turns out to be its opportunity cost, which I rate at a higher level for master cards then what DotS hits. Fred

"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message news:3B2B955F...@netcom.com... > Peter D Bakija wrote: > > > > At the very worst, it is simply better than a STI. > > Not strictly, of course. STI burns master phase actions whereas Dreams > burns transfers. In reality, I'll give you the point with the understanding Dreams doesn't use transfers in any fashion whatsoever...it could be seen as givin you a free transfer (and the 1 pool along with it), but I can't see why you would call that "burning" a transfer. > that STI sucks. So saying it's "simply better than a STI" is pretty much > wasting your breath. No, no...STI is still better than Protracted Investment... > Very flexible is not the same as very useful. It reminds of the "charms" Not always, but frequently. There has never been a time when I couldn't think of a reason to tap Dreams. In fact, I often decide to not tap it during a turn, just because I want to keep it around a bit longer in case I need it...*but* I found a use for the turn, and decided against using it, just in case. > in the game. If you've got a toolbox deck doesn't know what it needs, perhaps > DotS is the way to go. I guess I've never been very comfortable building decks If you've got a rush deck, then sometimes you need the pool, sometimes you need the hand size...what's the other function? I guess I don't use that one much...oh...gain an extra pool if you control the Edge at the beginning of your turn. Yeah, I don't usually end up keeping the Edge. > that way. My decks tend to be very focus, very fanatical about whatever they > need in their every single master card slot. Dreams seldom measures up. Unlike many other cards, Dreams is *always* useful, as long as you can afford to pay for it initially. IMO, Dreams *always* measures up. There are other cards I'd like to put in to some decks, but Dreams usually beats them out. Not in say, a Minion Tap/5th deck, but any deck relying on smaller vampires and larger combos (rush deck, anyone?) it definitely fits. Xian

Xian wrote: > > "Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message > news:3B2B955F...@netcom.com... > > Peter D Bakija wrote: > > > > > > At the very worst, it is simply better than a STI. > > > > Not strictly, of course. STI burns master phase actions whereas Dreams > > burns transfers. In reality, I'll give you the point with the understanding > > Dreams doesn't use transfers in any fashion whatsoever...it could be seen as > givin you a free transfer (and the 1 pool along with it), but I can't see why > you would call that "burning" a transfer. Seems pretty obvious to me. Remember we're comparing it to STI. So the function is gaining pool. If you want to actually gain that pool from Dreams, you must have a minion currently in your uncontrolled area and burn 2 transfer to move the blood to your pool. You can use it to bring out a new minion and sometimes that's convenient. But then we're not comparing apples to apples as far as STI goes. > > that STI sucks. So saying it's "simply better than a STI" is pretty much > > wasting your breath. > > No, no...STI is still better than Protracted Investment... OK. Have to concede that point, too. If I have any Protracted Investments in my deck, they all get swapped immediately for Dreams! :-) > > Very flexible is not the same as very useful. It reminds of the "charms" > > Not always, but frequently. There has never been a time when I couldn't think > of a reason to tap Dreams. In fact, I often decide to not tap it during a > turn, just because I want to keep it around a bit longer in case I need > it...*but* I found a use for the turn, and decided against using it, just in > case. Oh, of course. I didn't say these functions aren't useful. Just that they don't strike me as being _as_ useful as some other master card I could build into most of my decks instead. > > in the game. If you've got a toolbox deck doesn't know what it needs, > > perhaps DotS is the way to go. I guess I've never been very comfortable building > > decks > > If you've got a rush deck, then sometimes you need the pool, sometimes you > need the hand size...what's the other function? I guess I don't use that one > much...oh...gain an extra pool if you control the Edge at the beginning of > your turn. Yeah, I don't usually end up keeping the Edge. Yes, perhaps Rush decks would be another thing. 9 card hands during your turn followed by the cycling of two cards would be very useful for rush, extremely useful. And I can see switching off and using the pool gain could be useful at times as well. I don't build many rush decks so I probably don't appreciate this aspect of DotS. Fred

Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote in message news:<A59CB39B26F63010.0BA82157...@lp.airnews.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] There are catacombs under most ancient cities. I know Paris has some, and I think London has some. To say that there are no catacombs in Egypt is like saying there is no sand in Egypt. The country is famous for its burial sites, aka The Pyrimids. It doesn't stop with the Pyrimids, there are all sorts of lesser known yet equally ancient burial sites. Maybe you are just trolling but if you get a chance to leave your basement and visit some of these places you would be most impressed with what men could do in ancient times with a brain and a pair of good hands. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message news:3B2B9E8E...@netcom.com... > Yes, perhaps Rush decks would be another thing. 9 card hands during your turn Well, since this subthread has been all Derek, Peter, and now me, I think it's safe to say that you're talking with a bunch of rush-deck thugs. This could be where the differences in veiew come in. > followed by the cycling of two cards would be very useful for rush, extremely > useful. And I can see switching off and using the pool gain could be useful at Yup. They're both really good. Especially when you're going first or second, have a Dreams in your hand, and have Lupo/Koko *and* Hasina Kesi in your crypt. :) Fun fun fun. > times as well. I don't build many rush decks so I probably don't appreciate this > aspect of DotS. Dreams is where it's at for Rush decks. I have actually even used it for the extra pool bit in a rush deck, though probably only once or twice. I don't think anyone's saying it's better than Minion Tap or Blood Doll, all things given, but it's definitely worth looking at, especially for any deck that needs to cycle like mad, and has smaller-sized minions. Xian

Fred wrote: >>Not strictly, of course. STI burns master phase actions whereas Dreams burns transfers.>> How does Dreams burn transfers? Oh, I suppose if you are just tapping Dreams to put a blood on a vampire, and then transfering them off, you are *using* transfers, but I'd hardly call that "burning" them--if you are just using the Dreams for the pool gain, you aren't going to be using your transfers anyways (as you are done bring out vampires for the time being), so you are turning your unused transfers into something useful. If, on the other hand, you are using the Dreams to get out a vampire, it is *giving* you transfers (and free pool), and you aren't burning anything. >>Very flexible is not the same as very useful. It reminds of the "charms" in Magic. (In fact, it may have been designed about the same time the Magic designers were going off on their "charms" kick in several of the expansions around then.) Lots of functions, all of them done better by some other card in the game. If you've got a toolbox deck doesn't know what it needs, perhaps DotS is the way to go. I guess I've never been very comfortable building decks that way. My decks tend to be very focus, very fanatical about whatever they need in their every single master card slot. Dreams seldom measures up.>> You have never seen the decks I post? I too am super focused. Dreams, as Xian pointed out, is super useful for a Rush deck--early it speeds up your transfers and gains you a little pool (which Rush decks have trouble gaining in general), late it gives you a 9 card hand which makes you super powered. Heck, I use 2 in my Rush deck, and pretty much always use both over the period of the game (assuming, of course, I draw them...) They are always a good idea to play (unless you are at 1 pool), and always are worth both the effort, pool cost, and card slot, at least in a Rush deck. Sure, in some decks, there will always be a better master card to use. In others, (like a Rush deck), the Dreams is going to be super useful. In any deck, however, you'll always be able to use it for something good, and it will always pay for itself. >>But none of them go that high up.>> The hand cycling ability it provides is the best in the game--it gives you a 9 card hand (all the other hand cycling masters require you to discard first, then draw up) which is key in certain decks. That it can't be killed (like Barrens) or stolen (like Fragment) makes it worth the effort. That is often costs you zero pool to play, and can gain you pool (as well as transfers if you draw it early, speeding up your deck, which is always good) makes it worth using. Sure, again, in many decks, there will always be a better choice, but if you have a spare master slot in any deck, throwing in a Dreams will always be a good choice (given the choice between, say, 5 Blood Doll or 4 and a Dreams, I'd usually go with the 4/1), and will never not be playable and useful. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message news:3B2A8AC1...@netcom.com... [ quoted text not captured ] It would have been completely appropriate in .misc, it was partly appropriate here, but it was quite annoying to read through an article on other games to get to a small comment on the distribution of rares and quality of a new set in a group set up for gameplay. I believe that the Voyager comment would not have had much of an audience in the Jyhad grouping as the Jyhad section had little relevance in the Star Trek listing. In my opinion it would have been more appropriate and much more polite to split the posting into two messages and posted them on the appropriate boards. Highwayman(of Kurill Prime)

On 16 Jun 2001 23:38:09 GMT, pd...@aol.comANTISPAM (Peter D Bakija) wrote: >The hand cycling ability it provides is the best in the game--it gives you a 9 >card hand (all the other hand cycling masters require you to discard first, >then draw up) which is key in certain decks. That it can't be killed (like Fraggie is a draw-first, then-discard Master. But Fraggie is also referred to around here as the "steal-me-please" card, because it makes a great table action to cycle stealth or combat on, and if you get the Fraggie without a block, even better! Often, you end up tapping the Fraggie every turn it's in play to make it less attractive to steal - meaning you burn through your deck rapidly, whether you want to or not. >Barrens) or stolen (like Fragment) makes it worth the effort. That is often >costs you zero pool to play, and can gain you pool (as well as transfers if you >draw it early, speeding up your deck, which is always good) makes it worth >using. Sure, again, in many decks, there will always be a better choice, but if >you have a spare master slot in any deck, throwing in a Dreams will always be a >good choice (given the choice between, say, 5 Blood Doll or 4 and a Dreams, I'd >usually go with the 4/1), and will never not be playable and useful. I was going to comment on that earlier; I'd rather have one Blood Doll than one Dreams, but after the first 4-6 Blood Dolls, I'll start making room for a Dreams. So in one sense, it IS better than a Blood Doll. -- Derek

On Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:29:09 +1200, "Highwayman" <hula...@hotmail.com> wrote: >"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message >news:3B2A8AC1...@netcom.com... >> A little common sense, please! Though crossposted articles are often >decried, >> there are times they make sense. When due to its nature, a post discusses >(as >> Andrew's clearly did) subject material exclusive to two or more different >> groups, then it's perfectly OK and completely appropriate to crosspost as >the >> intended audience is legitimately of interest to both audiences. >> (In fact, that particular post might well have been cross-posted to >> rec.games.trading-cards.misc, as well.) > >It would have been completely appropriate in .misc, it was partly >appropriate here, but it was quite annoying to read through an article on >other games to get to a small comment on the distribution of rares and >quality of a new set in a group set up for gameplay. I believe that the >Voyager comment would not have had much of an audience in the Jyhad grouping >as the Jyhad section had little relevance in the Star Trek listing. In my >opinion it would have been more appropriate and much more polite to split >the posting into two messages and posted them on the appropriate boards. Something even more inappropriate, AND even more annoying, is to carry on a conversation on BOTH groups about whether any given cross-post was appropriate, inappropriate, or green with small purple spots, thus increasing the signal/noise ratio of BOTH groups, as opposed to just ignoring it and moving on. Followups have been redirected to the appropriate location, as they should have been on the ORIGINAL response. -- Derek "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - C. Darwin, 1871

In message <3B2B4B04...@mich.com>, Raille <rai...@mich.com> writes >Being labeled female or male implies that they can procreate Are infertile people no longer male or female then? -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D "You reinstall Dial-Up Networking. The Elf screams and becomes EBD690ECD7A1F an icon. *** CONGRATULATIONS! *** You completed the BT Internet B457CA213D7E6 Helpdesk training course in 15 out of a possible 9000 moves." 68C3695D623D5D

>It would have been completely appropriate in .misc, it was partly >appropriate here, but it was quite annoying to read through an article on >other games to get to a small comment on the distribution of rares and >quality of a new set in a group set up for gameplay. I believe that the >Voyager comment would not have had much of an audience in the Jyhad grouping >as the Jyhad section had little relevance in the Star Trek listing. In my >opinion it would have been more appropriate and much more polite to split >the posting into two messages and posted them on the appropriate boards. Since everyone's giving their two cents on crossposting I might as well give mine: I'll agree that it can often become annoying but usually I don't mind it that much (like in this case). At the very least, it's a nice reminder that there are indeed other CCG's out there. And though I never played 98% of the CCG's out there and among the ones I used to play I pretty much just stick to Jyhad, I think it's always nice to hear about how some of the other CCG's are doing. So even if the Voyager comment wasn't exactly on-topic, I did find it rather enlightening. Never played Star Trek myself but I remember the lame way they did the rarities for the main crew. Halcyan 2

James wrote: >>Are infertile people no longer male or female then?>> I can only assume that the concept of gender roles (and I won't even mention transexuals...) are lost in this discussion as well. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

I think, though, that the problem which highwayman had, was that some of the replies had absolutely nothing to do with Trek, and thus should not have been posted to our newsgroup. Any further posts I make on this topic will be restricted to rec.games.trading-cards.startrek. Fritz Meissner mei...@mweb.co.za "Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message news:3B2A8AC1...@netcom.com... > Highwayman wrote: > (Re: Andrew Davidson's post) > > Incidentally most of the article seemed not to be related to Star Trek at > > all, I would request that in future you split your postings into sections > > and post the relevant sections to each board. > > A little common sense, please! Though crossposted articles are often decried, > there are times they make sense. When due to its nature, a post discusses (as > Andrew's clearly did) subject material exclusive to two or more different > groups, then it's perfectly OK and completely appropriate to crosspost as the > intended audience is legitimately of interest to both audiences. > > (In fact, that particular post might well have been cross-posted to > rec.games.trading-cards.misc, as well.) > > Fred

Xian wrote: > > "Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message > news:3B2B9E8E...@netcom.com... > > I don't build many rush decks so I probably don't appreciate > > this aspect of DotS. > > Dreams is where it's at for Rush decks. I have actually even used it for the > extra pool bit in a rush deck, though probably only once or twice. > > I don't think anyone's saying it's better than Minion Tap or Blood Doll, all > things given, but it's definitely worth looking at, especially for any deck > that needs to cycle like mad, and has smaller-sized minions. I wouldn't know. I just see all the gushing for DotS and people don't seem to add that little caveat ("only talking about rush decks"). So in general, I'm not that hot on the card. So noted, however, one type of deck (rush) that it works great in. Fred

Peter D Bakija wrote: > > James wrote: > >>Are infertile people no longer male or female then?>> > > I can only assume that the concept of gender roles (and I won't even mention > transexuals...) are lost in this discussion as well. > > :-) > Whoa, this thread took off in a WAY OFF TOPIC direction fast. TO bring it back to something on topic. Vampires could be considered hermaphrodites (did I spell that right?) where the can only self procreate. Which is the closes things we have when a human becomes a vampire. Raille

>TO bring it back to something on topic. Vampires could be considered >hermaphrodites (did I spell that right?) where the can only self >procreate. Which is the closes things we have when a human becomes a >vampire. I kind of disagree. First of all, I could simply amend my statement and say that the !Tremere should embrace more female humans (thus avoiding the term "female vampires"). But in response to your statement, I still think that vampires have a gender. Even if it serves no reproductive function, I think that the gender of the vampire as a human influences the way the vampire thinks and acts for centuries to come (with some exceptions like Vykos of course). And from the WoD books I've read and seen, it does indeed appear that vampires "react" to other vampires of the opposite "gender." To settle this once and for all, I don't suppose any one owns the Eternal Hearts book? That book deals primarily with vampiric sexuality and perhaps it contains the secrets that may put this thread to rest... Halcyan 2

Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message news:<3B2D5CCB...@netcom.com>... > I just see all the gushing for DotS and people don't seem > to add that little caveat ("only talking about rush decks"). So in general, > I'm not that hot on the card. So noted, however, one type of deck (rush) > that it works great in. Sorry to keep beating this dead horse, Fred, but DoS is darn good in any deck where you’ve got a four-or-more-cards combo to pull off. Vote/Stealth/Bewitching Oration/Bribes/Voter Captivation, for example, is much easier to pull off with a 9-card hand. So is Force of Will/Day Op/Command of the Beast/Conditioning/Movement of the Slowed Body/Rapid Healing. Even boring old Malk stealth/bleed profits from the ability to clear out hand jams. And in a Necro deck, DoS is brilliant, because you can always go get those discards if you need them. That said, I've been playing with Visit from the Capuchin recently, and I like this card a *lot*. VftC can't be destroyed or stolen either. Compare it to DoS for card cycling: Pro: Costs 1 less pool immediately. Gives you 2 more cards immediately. No forced discard. Con: No pool gain possibilities. Hand size shrinks as you use it. Gives you less cards in the long run. I think DoS is more useful in the early stages of the game, when option of extra blood and transfers is a big deal. But in the midgame, when my pool is precious and I have lots of minions ready to roll, I think I'd rather have VftC to jump-start my combos.

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kfjkitgsf2ks21l6v...@4ax.com>... > >Pokethulhu - this has some good laugh-out-loud lines in it. The > >creatures "Tindaloo" and "Jigglypolyp" had me spluttering over my > >shish kabob. > > I've heard many raucous good things about this, too, but I haven't > seen it yet. =( The second printing just came out. The first sold out in a week. It can be mail-ordered from The Dork Store, at: http://www.wizards-attic.com/DorkStorm.html#519 But all local stores should now be able to order it. (DSP 401 - $5.95) John