Burden the Mind question

Burden the Mind -- Type: Master -- Cost: 1 pool -- Text: Master. Put this card on any minion. While it is not this minion's turn, using an effect to untap this minion or to allow this minion to block as if untapped costs an additional pool. This minion may burn this card and untap as a (D) action. If Frederick the Weak has a Burden the Mind, and Horatio strikes Meld with the Land at basic (when it is not Frederick's turn), does Meld with the Land cost a pool to Horatio's controller? (I assume yes) What if the strike is dodged? Does the strike still cost 1 pool, or do you only pay the extra pool if the untap happens?

Jozxyqk wrote: > Burden the Mind -- Type: Master -- Cost: 1 pool -- Text: Master. > Put this card on any minion. While it is not this minion's turn, > using an effect to untap this minion or to allow this minion to > block as if untapped costs an additional pool. This minion may > burn this card and untap as a (D) action. > > > If Frederick the Weak has a Burden the Mind, and Horatio > strikes Meld with the Land at basic (when it is not Frederick's > turn), does Meld with the Land cost a pool to Horatio's controller? > (I assume yes) No need to assume. > What if the strike is dodged? > Does the strike still cost 1 pool, or do you only pay the extra > pool if the untap happens? The cost is still paid, yes. Similarly, if Frederick has a Presence Discipline card in addition to the Burden, and he plays Majesty at superior (costing 1 blood and 1 pool) and Watenda cancels the effect (by paying 2 blood -- 1 for the blood and 1 for the pool cost of the Majesty), the pool is still paid.

What qualifies as 'using an effect' to untap a minion? Absolutely anything that makes it untap? The Madness Network is in play and my Brazil, an anarch, plays Border Skirmish at the end of my prey's minion phase. Does BS cost a pool? I control Sennadurek, it is my prey's turn and my grandprey has the edge. Prey's Julius plays Edge Vitiation at [ser], the action is successful and Sennadurek untaps. Who pays a pool, my prey or me (or nobody)? I control Sennadurek, it is my prey's turn and my grandprey has the edge. Prey's Aabt Kindred plays KRC. During the referendum, grandprey burns the edge for a vote and Sennadurek untaps. Who pays a pool, grandprey, prey, me or nobody?

On Oct 15, 4:04 pm, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > What qualifies as 'using an effect' to untap a minion? Absolutely > anything that makes it untap? > > The Madness Network is in play and my Brazil, an anarch, plays Border > Skirmish at the end of my prey's minion phase. Does BS cost a pool? Techincally: No. But you do pay one pool for the untapping of Brazil. > I control Sennadurek, it is my prey's turn and my grandprey has the > edge. Prey's Julius plays Edge Vitiation at [ser], the action is > successful and Sennadurek untaps. Who pays a pool, my prey or me (or > nobody)? You. Sennadurek's effect (card text) untaps her, as her controller, you're considered 'using the effect'. > I control Sennadurek, it is my prey's turn and my grandprey has the > edge. Prey's Aabt Kindred plays KRC. During the referendum, > grandprey burns the edge for a vote and Sennadurek untaps. Who pays a > pool, grandprey, prey, me or nobody? You. Sennadurek's effect (card text) untaps her, as her controller, you're considered 'using the effect'. Cheers, B

On Oct 15, 4:48 pm, Bram Vink <jja.v...@hccnet.nl> wrote: > On Oct 15, 4:04 pm, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > > > What qualifies as 'using an effect' to untap a minion? Absolutely > > anything that makes it untap? > > > The Madness Network is in play and my Brazil, an anarch, plays Border > > Skirmish at the end of my prey's minion phase. Does BS cost a pool? > > Techincally: No. But you do pay one pool for the untapping of Brazil. Ehm, my bad. Yes, you do, if the action is successful, you're paying a pool. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Oct 15, 4:50 pm, Bram Vink <jja.v...@hccnet.nl> wrote: > On Oct 15, 4:48 pm, Bram Vink <jja.v...@hccnet.nl> wrote: > > > On Oct 15, 4:04 pm, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > > > > What qualifies as 'using an effect' to untap a minion? Absolutely > > > anything that makes it untap? > > > > The Madness Network is in play and my Brazil, an anarch, plays Border > > > Skirmish at the end of my prey's minion phase. Does BS cost a pool? > > > Techincally: No. But you do pay one pool for the untapping of Brazil. > > Ehm, my bad. Yes, you do, if the action is successful, you're paying a > pool. Hmm. I'm not sure. :P Oh well, B

Malone wrote: > What qualifies as 'using an effect' to untap a minion? Absolutely > anything that makes it untap? ? Um, yes. If it's a card-play effect, then playing that card. If it's a card-in-play effect, then using that effect. > The Madness Network is in play and my Brazil, an anarch, plays Border > Skirmish at the end of my prey's minion phase. Does BS cost a pool? Yes. > I control Sennadurek, it is my prey's turn and my grandprey has the > edge. Prey's Julius plays Edge Vitiation at [ser], the action is > successful and Sennadurek untaps. Who pays a pool, my prey or me (or > nobody)? You do if you use Sennadurek's ability. With the added cost, though, you could choose not to pay it (and not untap her). You can still look at your grandprey's hand, though, even if you don't pay the cost to untap Sennadurek (since the two effects are written as being independent). > I control Sennadurek, it is my prey's turn and my grandprey has the > edge. Prey's Aabt Kindred plays KRC. During the referendum, > grandprey burns the edge for a vote and Sennadurek untaps. Who pays a > pool, grandprey, prey, me or nobody? Conditionally you, as above.

[ quoted text not captured ] Ok, just to put things into perspective - if said Frederick is in combat with Dedefra, and she uses The Jones to cancel Frederick's superior Majesty, then the cost - 1 blood, 1 pool - is not paid, due to card text on The Jones. The example with Watenda is specific in the sense that his is a cancellation effect that does not allow the opponent to reclaim the cost of the card cancelled. -- Regards, Daneel

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:29:33 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> I control Sennadurek, it is my prey's turn and my grandprey has the >> edge. Prey's Julius plays Edge Vitiation at [ser], the action is >> successful and Sennadurek untaps. Who pays a pool, my prey or me (or >> nobody)? > > You do if you use Sennadurek's ability. With the added cost, though, you > could choose not to pay it (and not untap her). You can still look at > your grandprey's hand, though, even if you don't pay the cost to untap > Sennadurek (since the two effects are written as being independent). Now this is interesting. There is a precedent (of sorts): Putrefaction [BL:C2] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Thanatosis/Presence [pre] Strike: combat ends. [thn] Strike: 1 damage. Put this card on the opposing minion. The minion with this card has -1 stealth. He or she may {choose not to untap as normal and burn this card} during his or her untap phase. A minion may have only one Putrefaction. [THN] As [thn] above, and this minion takes 1 unpreventable damage when he or she strikes in combat or takes an action. The minion with this card may choose not to strike during the Choose Strike step of combat. However, there is no text hinting at optionality in Sennadurek's text: Sennadurek [LoB:U] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Nagaraja Group: 4 Capacity: 6 Discipline: dom AUS NEC Sabbat. Black Hand: Whenever a Methuselah loses the Edge when it is not your turn, Sennadurek untaps, and you may look at that Methuselah's hand. Scarce. Now my question would be, what is the principle at work here? Looking at only Sennadurek's ability, it seems, that as it is not optional (you HAVE to untap her based on card text), and as such an effect that makes a Methuselah lose the edge outside your turn is also an effect that - directly, or indirectly through her ability - untaps her. If there is a general rule, I'd like to understand it... E.g. if there is a general rule allowing me not to apply an effect of a card if its cost is increased? E.g. can I strike Meld with the Land in combat with Frederick and specify that I don't want to apply the "untap opposing minion" part because its cost is increased? Or is it only working on cards in play? E.g. if NRA Pac is in play, (Any minion who successfully performs an equip action untaps at the end of the turn.) and I equip out-of-turn via Madness Network, I can choose not to untap (= not to pay the cost)? -- Regards, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:29:33 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > >>> I control Sennadurek, it is my prey's turn and my grandprey has the >>> edge. Prey's Julius plays Edge Vitiation at [ser], the action is >>> successful and Sennadurek untaps. Who pays a pool, my prey or me (or >>> nobody)? >> >> You do if you use Sennadurek's ability. With the added cost, though, >> you could choose not to pay it (and not untap her). You can still look >> at your grandprey's hand, though, even if you don't pay the cost to >> untap Sennadurek (since the two effects are written as being >> independent). > > Now this is interesting. > > There is a precedent (of sorts): There is another precedent: Tenebrous Form against a minion whose intercept is already two or more higher (as well as other examples with Mask changing to a vampire whom other vampires have to pay a blood to attempt to block). > If there is a general rule, I'd like to understand it... E.g. if there > is a general rule allowing me not to apply an effect of a card if its > cost is increased? E.g. can I strike Meld with the Land in combat with > Frederick and specify that I don't want to apply the "untap opposing > minion" part because its cost is increased? No. > Or is it only working on cards in play? E.g. if NRA Pac is in play, > (Any minion who successfully performs an equip action untaps at the > end of the turn.) and I equip out-of-turn via Madness Network, I can > choose not to untap (= not to pay the cost)? No.

[ quoted text not captured ] Ok, with all due respect, I'm even more clueless after reading your reply than I was when I posted the question. :) IF there is no general rule saying that mandatory things become optional if their cost is increased then I would expect card text to mention it (like on Putrefaction). If there is no rule and no card text than what makes Sennadurek's untap become optional? -- Regards, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > IF there is no general rule saying that mandatory things become optional > if their cost is increased then I would expect card text to mention it > (like on Putrefaction). If there is no rule and no card text than what > makes Sennadurek's untap become optional? Putrefaction has nothing to do with costs. You cannot force someone else to pay a cost. (Except by effects like Thanks for the Donation.) Cost is cost to use, not cost for receiving.

[ quoted text not captured ] What makes Sennadurek's untap optional?

[ quoted text not captured ] As above. You cannot force someone to pay a cost.

LSJ skrev: [ quoted text not captured ] Cardname: Trophy: Retainers Cardtype: Master Set: KMW Cardtext: Master. Trophy. During your untap phase, if this card is on a vampire, you may search your library (shuffle afterward) or hand for a retainer. This vampire employs that retainer (he or she must meet the requirements, if any). Pay the cost as normal. This is not an action. Assume I play this card and move it to a minion controlled by another player. Am I not allowed to force said minion to employ, let's say Faithful Servant, and thus pay the cost? Sten -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Sten During wrote: > LSJ skrev: >> You cannot force someone else to pay a cost. > > Cardname: Trophy: Retainers > Assume I play this card and move it to a minion controlled by another > player. Am I not allowed to force said minion to employ, let's say > Faithful Servant, and thus pay the cost? Yes, you are not allowed to force the vampire to pay a cost.

On Oct 19, 6:51 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > >> You cannot force someone else to pay a cost. and > Yes, you are not allowed to force the vampire to pay a cost. Except when rescuing their minion's from torpor.

[ quoted text not captured ] Right. And Thanks for the Donation.

On Oct 15, 9:30 am, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: > Burdenthe Mind -- Type: Master -- Cost: 1 pool -- Text: Master. > Put this card on any minion. While it is not this minion's turn, > using an effect to untap this minion or to allow this minion to > block as if untapped costs an additional pool. This minion may > burn this card and untap as a (D) action. I'm pretty sure I didn't understand LSJ's comments in this thread, so: What happens if you use Temptation to take control of a vampire with Burden on him? Does the vampire's original controller burn a pool? Does the player who played Temptation burn a pool? John Eno

Kushiel wrote: > On Oct 15, 9:30 am, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: >> Burdenthe Mind -- Type: Master -- Cost: 1 pool -- Text: Master. >> Put this card on any minion. While it is not this minion's turn, >> using an effect to untap this minion or to allow this minion to >> block as if untapped costs an additional pool. This minion may >> burn this card and untap as a (D) action. > > I'm pretty sure I didn't understand LSJ's comments in this thread, so: Quoting the comments that you didn't understand could be helpful to understanding them. > What happens if you use Temptation to take control of a vampire with > Burden on him? Does the vampire's original controller burn a pool? > Does the player who played Temptation burn a pool? The person using the Temptation effect to untap the vampire (while it is not that vampire's turn) pays an addition pool to use that effect, by the card text on Burden. If you're using Temptation on your own vampire just for the untap effect (and it is therefore the vampire's turn), then the Burden effect doesn't apply, due to Burden's card text, of course.