Puzzler #3

<The last one was too easy, eh?> Under the DCI No Repeat Actions (NRA) rule, a minion may not attempt the same type of action more than once per turn. This involves "history" - that is, it involves some notion as to what has happened before. History is not discernable from the state of the cards and counters in play, in the hand, and in the ash heap. History is eschewed in CCGs, but is not always logistically avoidable. For the sake of this exercise, assume that this NRA history is a restrictive until-end-of-turn effect that is generated by a minion taking an action. It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn two pool from that bleed. How? -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Washington, DC: http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | America's work-free Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | drug place

>It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop >and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from >the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same >laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn >two pool from that bleed. >How? Just a guess, but how about Minion one bleeds with laptop, Freak drives. Minion two goes into bleed followed by Mask of a thousand Faces and number one is the true bleeder. Does it contradict the one action rule? I don't imagine because it is an action modifier, minion one unwittingly becomes the acting minion, even though he knows that according to DCI rules he is pushing his luck. Did I get it right?

On 18 Feb 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote: > <The last one was too easy, eh?> > Under the DCI No Repeat Actions (NRA) rule, a minion > may not attempt the same type of action more than > once per turn. Hmm... I like this one. :) > It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop > and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from > the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same > laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn > two pool from that bleed. > How? Madness Network in play. Dr Jest with a Laptop computer bleeds. Prey accepts. Dr Jest Freak Drives and Untaps. The Minion Phase ends. Dr Jest bleeds again. Even though he is prohibited by the repeat action rule from performing the same action, the Madness Network's specific text allows him to take another action (example of a card breaking the rules). Unlike if he had merely untapped and attempted to take another action, there is no card in play or being used that specifically allows the action and thus specifically allows the rule to be broken. LSJ? @#$ The Corrupter $#@ @#$ Adrian Lee Sullivan $#@ Truth is as @#$ Game Theory - Coffee - Opinion - Hedonism $#@ subjective as @#$ <http://upl.cs.wisc.edu/~adrian/jyhad> $#@ Reality ... GAT/CS/WS C(+++) USX+ P++ N++ PS++@ PE@ b++(+++) X+++ R+++* r+ z++**?

L. Scott Johnson's Puzzler #3: > > Under the DCI No Repeat Actions (NRA) rule, a minion > may not attempt the same type of action more than > once per turn. > > This involves "history" - that is, it involves some > notion as to what has happened before. History is not > discernable from the state of the cards and counters > in play, in the hand, and in the ash heap. History > is eschewed in CCGs, but is not always logistically > avoidable. > > For the sake of this exercise, assume that this NRA history > is a restrictive until-end-of-turn effect that is generated > by a minion taking an action. > > It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop > and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from > the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same > laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn > two pool from that bleed. > > How? > First, the trivial solution: Force of Will, and the prey plays Telepathic Counter. Less intuitive way: Vampire A has Laptop, Fortitude, Obfuscate. Vampire B attempts to bleed. A uses Mask of 1K Faces, finishes the bleed. A has not yet taken and action, only completed one. Then A Freak Drives and bleeds. There's a couple of ideas. John Baker fau...@psu.edu

Daniel Frey <Danie...@bcpress.com> writes: >>It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop >>and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from >>the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same >>laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn >>two pool from that bleed. >>How? >Just a guess, but how about >Minion one bleeds with laptop, Freak drives. >Minion two goes into bleed followed by Mask of a thousand Faces and >number one is the true bleeder. >Does it contradict the one action rule? Yes. The minion with the restriction cannot mask a bleed action. This has been covered in the case of the would-be Masker having a Minor Boon on him. He can't use the Mask to shirk the restriction. (That is, a minion who, by virtue of a non-repeat-action restriction or by a Minor Boon, is prevented from bleeding cannot Mask a bleed action). [ quoted text not captured ]

The Corrupter <sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu> writes: >On 18 Feb 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote: >> <The last one was too easy, eh?> >> Under the DCI No Repeat Actions (NRA) rule, a minion >> may not attempt the same type of action more than >> once per turn. >Hmm... I like this one. :) > >> It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop >> and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from >> the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same >> laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn >> two pool from that bleed. > >> How? >Madness Network in play. >Dr Jest with a Laptop computer bleeds. >Prey accepts. >Dr Jest Freak Drives and Untaps. >The Minion Phase ends. >Dr Jest bleeds again. Even though he is prohibited by the repeat action >rule from performing the same action, the Madness Network's specific text >allows him to take another action (example of a card breaking the >rules). Unlike if he had merely untapped and attempted to take another >action, there is no card in play or being used that specifically allows >the action and thus specifically allows the rule to be broken. >LSJ? No. While he is allowed to take an action at a time that he is normally not able to take one, he is not granted the ability to take an action that he is prohibited from taking. So, if he had a Minor Boon, he could not bleed his Prey at the end of your minion phase (or even during his Prey's minion phase). If he had Talbot's Chainsaw, he could not hunt at the end of your minion phase. And if he had a restriction against bleeding (in this case, from the NRA rule), then he can't bleed at the end of your minion phase. [ quoted text not captured ]

"John M. Baker" <fau...@psu.edu> writes: >L. Scott Johnson's Puzzler #3: >> It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop >> and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from >> the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same >> laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn >> two pool from that bleed. >> >> How? >> >First, the trivial solution: Force of Will, and the prey plays >Telepathic Counter. No. Force of Will is a bleed, and therefore denied by the NRA action after the first bleed. >Less intuitive way: Vampire A has Laptop, Fortitude, Obfuscate. >Vampire B attempts to bleed. A uses Mask of 1K Faces, finishes >the bleed. A has not yet taken and action, only completed one. >Then A Freak Drives and bleeds. Vamp A has taken the action. He is prevented from bleeding again. (As is VampB). [ quoted text not captured ]

OK, here goes nothing... You have, in play: Roland Bishop, 4 blood, Laptop Dimple, 2 blood, Prince of Houston Basil, 1 blood Heidelburg Castle, Germany Madness Network Roland bleeds prey for two. Dimple calls vote Banishment, Roland. Influence Phase: Get out Roland. Bleed with him. Now, this won't work if Banishment doesn't erase the memory of the bleed. If not, then: Roland bleeds prey for two. Basil takes Laptop (action). Dimple Banishes Roland. Influence phase: Get out the other Roland in your uncontrolled area, use Heidelburg to give back the laptop, and bleed prey for two. I know _this_ is legal, but does it count as the same minion for purposes of this exercise? James -- James Hamblin je...@cornell.edu --------------------------------------------------- "Well, Mulder didn't say that it _was_ Alex Trebek, just someone who looked extremely like him." -- Dana Scully, X-Files: "Jose Chung's _From Outer Space_"

Some clarifications, and a hint: sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes: >For the sake of this exercise, assume that this NRA history >is a restrictive until-end-of-turn effect that is generated >by a minion taking an action. That is, whenever a minion is the acting minion, an effect is generated. This effect is: that minion cannot perform another action of 'type' (where 'type' is the type of the current action). This is an until-end-of-turn effect. If this were being done without 'history', you could use 'action type' tokens. An acting minion gets a <type> 'action type' token. An minion with an <type> 'action type' token cannot perform and action of <type>. Burn all 'action type' tokens at the end of each turn. This is similar to the concept of tapping, which could have been done with 'tapped' counters. Rather than saying "A minion can only take one action or make one successul block (but not both) between your untap phases", WotC used the concept of tapping. This is cleaner and more intuitive and doesn't rely on history. As an added bonus, this "rule" (when modelled by tapping) is easily circumvented by card text. If it had been a history-based rule, card text would be much more complicated for things like Wakey and Force of Will and so on. >It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop >and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from >the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same >laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn >two pool from that bleed. >How? Hint: This is possible (given the right supporting cards) for *any* minion with a base bleed of one *except* for exactly one minion with a base bleed of one. It is easier for some minions, notably those with Fortitude. And a supporting vampire with a particular non-fortitude skill is required in all cases. (More supporters with other skills may be required depending on the minion in question). [ quoted text not captured ]

L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote in article <5ed3kb$a...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>... > <The last one was too easy, eh?> > > Under the DCI No Repeat Actions (NRA) rule, a minion > may not attempt the same type of action more than > once per turn. > > This involves "history" - that is, it involves some > notion as to what has happened before. History is not > discernable from the state of the cards and counters > in play, in the hand, and in the ash heap. History > is eschewed in CCGs, but is not always logistically > avoidable. > > For the sake of this exercise, assume that this NRA history > is a restrictive until-end-of-turn effect that is generated > by a minion taking an action. > > It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop > and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from > the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same > laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn > two pool from that bleed. > > How? Suppose you have Angus, Raven, and Gitane and with a skill card, Soul Gem of Etrius, and the laptop. Gitane bleeds your prey with a Day Operation. Your prey is bleed for two. Raven Diablerizes Gitane and gets the lap top and then Freak Drives. You draw for the Soul Gem and get another Gitane. Gitane then gets the Lap Top from Raven and Freak Drives. Gitane bleeds your prey with a Day Op for two more. I hope this is better than my last attempt at one of these... -- Steve Bucy I'd be better off undead... "Hmmm. I notice the number of conditional phrases in there... _seems_ to indicate a weakness, _may_ be vulnerable in theory." - G'Kar

I've guessed before, did I lose my opportunity? This is a different idea. You would need. Heidelburg Castle. Three vamps, one with fortitude, one with superior Necromancy First vamp, with the laptop (the one that has LSJ written across the top) bleeds with a Day Op, goes to torpor. Second vamp meats vamp #1 in torpor, diablerizes and takes the laptop. Surprisingly he survives the blood hunt. Vamp three, the one with superior necromancy, pulls vamp #1 out of the ash heap and gives him one blood. Tap the Heidelburg Castle, give vamp #1 the laptop. Send him forth again to do more damage. It assumes that being burned removes history/unseen action counters. Although in my opinion Vamp #1 has seen more history than is he would desire.

Ok... how about: Carlotta Giovanni w/ obfuscate skill and fortitude skill and LSJ Sir Walter Nash w/ LSJ Laptop and Heidelburg Castle Nash bleeds for 2 w/ day op Carlotta plays Sacrifical Lamb to nuke Nash and takes the Laptop Carlotta untaps via Freak Drive Carlotta plays Possession at superior to bring the LSJ Nash back into play w/ 1 blood so he doesn't have to hunt. (If Nash comes into play tapped, give him fortitude so he can freak drive - but I don't think so) Tap Heidelburg to give Nash back his trusty LSJ Laptop. Nash bleeds for 2 using Day Op. How's that? -Scott ps - There's probably a cleaner way to kill Nash that wouldn't require Carlotta having to use Freak Drive before playing Possession.... but I just used the quickest way I could think of off of the top of my head.

Daniel Frey wrote: > > I've guessed before, did I lose my opportunity? This is a different > idea. Not at all. We're not keeping score, right? :-) [ quoted text not captured ] Perfect. Yes indeed, a vampire (or minion) forgets all unseen effects and/or effects from cards or counters on him. (But, the LSJ vampire would still be the vampire targetted by a master card in play - like a Rack, if one had been pointing at him before the diablerie.) Kudos to James Hamblin as well, for coming up with this scenario. So, follow-up questions: (Only if you're really bored) How do you do it without Heidelburg and without fortitude? How do you do it with an ally? How do you do it with an ally without Heidelburg? [ quoted text not captured ]

Corollary to Puzzler #3 Even under No Repeat Actions, there is a repeatable loop. (Infinite loop for as long as you can draw cards from your library). It isn't very sturdy (diablerie in each pass, uses a zero stealth bleed), but it is interesting. --- Regina Giovanni with 6 blood Enzo Giovanni with 1 blood Giovanni Acceptance in play. Begin Loop: Regina Governs and Foreshadows w a Day Op. Bleed for 4/6, torpor (4 left). Enzo diablerizes for 5 blood and a Fortitude skill. He freaks. (4 left) Enzo Governs and Foreshadows. Bleed for 4/6. He freaks (2 left) Enzo Possesses Regina w Daring the Dawn. He burns. (Regina's at 1) Regina uses Restoration to gain 2 blood, and Freak Drives (2 left) Regina calls Praxis Seizure: whatever. It passes. She Freaks (1 left) Regina fills up with the 5th Tradition. She Freaks (now at 9) Regina Possesses Enzo. She Freaks (She's at 6, he's at 1) Repeat. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Hamblin wrote: > > OK, here goes nothing... > > You have, in play: > > Roland Bishop, 4 blood, Laptop > Dimple, 2 blood, Prince of Houston > Basil, 1 blood > > Heidelburg Castle, Germany > Madness Network > > Roland bleeds prey for two. Dimple calls vote Banishment, Roland. > Influence Phase: Get out Roland. Bleed with him. > > Now, this won't work if Banishment doesn't erase the memory of the > bleed. Banishment does indeed break the until-end-of-turn effect. But this won't do any good, since you can't get the Banished vampire back until your influence phase, and Madness Network only allows you to take an action at the end of your minion phase (just before your influence phase). > If not, then: > Roland bleeds prey for two. Basil takes Laptop (action). Dimple > Banishes Roland. Influence phase: Get out the other Roland in your > uncontrolled area, use Heidelburg to give back the laptop, and bleed > prey for two. > > I know _this_ is legal, but does it count as the same minion for > purposes of this exercise? This isn't legal for the same reason stated above. And it wouldn't count as the same Roland, anyhow. The "same" minion, for this exercise, is the exact card used to represent that minion. Take a magic marker and write 'LSJ' on a minion (and only one minion) and on a Laptop. Then have the LSJ minion bleed with the LSJ laptop. Later that same turn, have the same LSJ minion bleed with the same LSJ laptop. [ quoted text not captured ]

L. Scott Johnson wrote: > > And if he had a restriction against bleeding (in this case, from the > NRA rule), then he can't bleed at the end of your minion phase. > As an aside from the puzzle, can a minion who bleeds on Meth. A's turn bleed again during Meth. B's turn if he has the ability to untap (Homonculus, etc.). Robert -- ...................................................................... :The opinions expressed here are strictly my own delusional ramblings: :and do not reflect the opinions of The Walt Disney Company. : : : :Robert Goudie robert...@studio.disney.com: :LA Tourny Info -> http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~ezix/other/rg/vtourn_1.html: :....................................................................: :Da pony run, he jump he pitch. He t'row my master in da ditch. : :He died and da jury wondered why. Da verdict was the blue tail fly.: :....................................................................:

Steven Bucy wrote: > > L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote in article > <5ed3kb$a...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>... > > It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop > > and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from > > the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same > > laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn > > two pool from that bleed. > > > > How? > > Suppose you have Angus, Raven, and Gitane and with a skill card, Soul Gem > of Etrius, and the laptop. Gitane bleeds your prey with a Day Operation. > Your prey is bleed for two. Raven Diablerizes Gitane and gets the lap top > and then Freak Drives. You draw for the Soul Gem and get another Gitane. > Gitane then gets the Lap Top from Raven and Freak Drives. Gitane bleeds > your prey with a Day Op for two more. Almost, except for my assumed definition of "same minion". This new Gitane is not the same minion. For instance, if the old Gitane had a Rack pointing at her, this new Gitane would not receive the benefit for that. I'm looking for the "same" Gitane (or whoever) - that is, one that would (in this example) continue to benefit from the Rack. So, while this is a correct answer under some definition of "same minion", it isn't the answer that I'm looking for. This is good for an honorable mention, I suppose. [ quoted text not captured ]

Scott Shaw wrote: > Carlotta Giovanni w/ obfuscate skill and fortitude skill > and > LSJ Sir Walter Nash w/ LSJ Laptop > and > Heidelburg Castle > > Nash bleeds for 2 w/ day op > Carlotta plays Sacrifical Lamb to nuke Nash and takes the Laptop > Carlotta untaps via Freak Drive > Carlotta plays Possession at superior to bring the LSJ Nash back into play > w/ 1 blood so he doesn't have to hunt. (If Nash comes into play tapped, > give him fortitude so he can freak drive - but I don't think so) > > Tap Heidelburg to give Nash back his trusty LSJ Laptop. > Nash bleeds for 2 using Day Op. > > How's that? Perfect. You join the likes of James Hamblin and Daniel Frey. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <330B5A...@math.sc.edu>, L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote: > >So, follow-up questions: >(Only if you're really bored) Yep. >How do you do it without Heidelburg and without fortitude? >How do you do it with an ally? >How do you do it with an ally without Heidelburg? Let's skip right on down to this one. I don't know how many supporting vamps you're allowed to have or whether the bleeds have to be unblockable, but here's my scenario: You've got Scapelli, the family "mechanic", Rudolpho and Carlotta and Regina G, as well as some poser Ventrue with votes (let's say it's Nash). Ok. Scapelli's got the LSJ Laptop and bleeds. Then, that loser Nash decides to call a Kindred Segregation. Scapelli is burned, the LSJ Laptop is discarded and those Giovanni are really pissed at Nash. Rudolpho plays Compel the Spirit at superior. Scapelli is back... Hooray! Carlotta plays Whispers of the Dead and brings back the LSJ Laptop. (It would take the same number of actions for Carlotta to take the Laptop before Scapelli is burned and for him to take it back afterwards, but this way is cooler) Scapelli equips the Laptop. Regina plays Precognizant Mobility to untap Scapelli. Scapelli bleeds. Takes a lot of minions... but except for the fact that Scapelli would never get through on those bleeds, it works. (Maybe it would be better to use Gypsies... at least they have stealth) -Scott

L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote in article <330B53...@math.sc.edu>... > Steven Bucy wrote: > > > > Suppose you have Angus, Raven, and Gitane and with a skill card, Soul Gem > > of Etrius, and the laptop. Gitane bleeds your prey with a Day Operation. > > Your prey is bleed for two. Raven Diablerizes Gitane and gets the lap top > > and then Freak Drives. You draw for the Soul Gem and get another Gitane. > > Gitane then gets the Lap Top from Raven and Freak Drives. Gitane bleeds > > your prey with a Day Op for two more. > > Almost, except for my assumed definition of "same minion". This new Gitane > is not the same minion. For instance, if the old Gitane had a Rack pointing > at her, this new Gitane would not receive the benefit for that. I'm looking > for the "same" Gitane (or whoever) - that is, one that would (in this example) > continue to benefit from the Rack. > > So, while this is a correct answer under some definition of "same minion", > it isn't the answer that I'm looking for. > > This is good for an honorable mention, I suppose. Hmmm. I thought that might be the case. Oh well, back to the think tank... This is a really good one. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 19 Feb 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote: > The Corrupter <sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu> writes: > [Re: How to get a vampire to do the same action twice in a turn] > >> How? > >Madness Network in play. > >Dr Jest with a Laptop computer bleeds. > >Prey accepts. > >Dr Jest Freak Drives and Untaps. > >The Minion Phase ends. > >Dr Jest bleeds again. Even though he is prohibited by the repeat action > >rule from performing the same action, the Madness Network's specific text > >allows him to take another action (example of a card breaking the > >rules). Unlike if he had merely untapped and attempted to take another > >action, there is no card in play or being used that specifically allows > >the action and thus specifically allows the rule to be broken. > >LSJ? > No. I'm not sure I follow your logic... > While he is allowed to take an action at a time that he is normally > not able to take one, he is not granted the ability to take an action > that he is prohibited from taking. I can see this, but I could also see that the Madness Network could be considered an override. Whether or not I get the Puzzler correct (: That is the big concern ;), I wonder if any official word could be gotten on this. HEY WOTC! (sorry for shouting, seems like you need to to get their attention these days...) Does the Madness Network's letting a vampire perform an action it normally could not break the repeat actions rule of the DCI? Oh, I forgot, they're not here. Do you know of any rulings, LSJ? (Sorry for the bitterness regarding WotC presence. Carnes just showed up on the mailing list regarding the "winning" deck on the WotC webpage. He doesn't apparently get the "melodrama" that we players have regarding WotC, their products, and their presence) > So, if he had a Minor Boon, he could not bleed his Prey at the end of > your minion phase (or even during his Prey's minion phase). > If he had Talbot's Chainsaw, he could not hunt at the end of your > minion phase. However, these both have explicit card text that says that he could not do such things (cards breaking the rules/setting up rules). > And if he had a restriction against bleeding (in this case, from the > NRA rule), then he can't bleed at the end of your minion phase. Since this is in the rules set, and cards override rules, I could see an argument that this solution works. (Of course, I can see it the other way to. An official answer is important, because this is an odd example I could see coming up in game play). [ quoted text not captured ]

On 19 Feb 1997 14:29:02 GMT, sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote: >Some clarifications, and a hint: > >sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes: >>For the sake of this exercise, assume that this NRA history >>is a restrictive until-end-of-turn effect that is generated >>by a minion taking an action. > >That is, whenever a minion is the acting minion, an effect >is generated. This effect is: that minion cannot perform >another action of 'type' (where 'type' is the type of the >current action). This is an until-end-of-turn effect. So, then, whenever a minion even declares itself acting minion, the effect takes place, regardless of whether a Mask of 1000 faces is later played to modify the action, correct? If the above isn't true, this is ridiculously simple. Take minion A w/ laptop. Bleed. Have minion B with obfuscate mask the action, and tap Heidelburg Castle to transfer the laptop to B. If A has fortitude, have him take an action to get his laptop back, and then freak drive and bleed again. If not, have another minion (C) w/ auspex precognizant mobility A so A can be untapped to bleed. Of course, this is probably wrong because of the way LSJ phrased the restriction on NRA. Then again, if the restriction is literal, there can be no way to do this barring a card which specifically overules NRA. Weird... (snip) > >>It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop >>and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from >>the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same >>laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn >>two pool from that bleed. > >>How? > >Hint: This is possible (given the right supporting cards) >for *any* minion with a base bleed of one *except* for exactly >one minion with a base bleed of one. > >It is easier for some minions, notably those with Fortitude. > >And a supporting vampire with a particular non-fortitude skill >is required in all cases. (More supporters with other skills >may be required depending on the minion in question). Well, my argument holds with these requirements. The vampire with a base bleed of one who can't do it is Beast, Mr. "I can't equip and I don't care..."(although, LSJ, according to Shawn, Beast _can_ pull this one off...) Do I win, or is my first guess as to the meaning of your clarification correct? Alec Chang

L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) wrote: [someone else wrote] : > It assumes that being burned removes history/unseen action counters. : > Although in my opinion Vamp #1 has seen more history than is he would : > desire. : Perfect. Yes indeed, a vampire (or minion) forgets all unseen effects : and/or effects from cards or counters on him. (But, the LSJ vampire : would still be the vampire targetted by a master card in play - like : a Rack, if one had been pointing at him before the diablerie.) : Kudos to James Hamblin as well, for coming up with this scenario. Go James go! So, figuring that you must have a ruling or six to back this up, I have to ask - how do you know that the vamp with LSJ written on it would still have the Rack pointing at it if it miraculously came back from the even-more-dead? I guess, since the question was based on the idea of 'history' in the game, you must be trying to illustrate the vagaries and vicissitudes of applying such a concept to a game like Jyhad... but clearly it really is a problematic thing to do. Why does the LSJ-marked vamp remember that it has a Rack if it's burned and comes back, but not if, for example, it's Banished, and one with the same name comes out? Or if it's got a skill card, a Soul Gem, and is burned, and a different copy of the same vamp, this one with MSG written on it, shows up? Josh "I can always hear a freight train.."

The Corrupter <sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu> writes: >> And if he had a restriction against bleeding (in this case, from the >> NRA rule), then he can't bleed at the end of your minion phase. >Since this is in the rules set, and cards override rules, I could see an >argument that this solution works. >(Of course, I can see it the other way to. An official answer is >important, because this is an odd example I could see coming up in game >play). The card text *doesn't* override this restriction. It overrides the restriction against taking an action, not against performing a type of action. If the Malk was empty, the Madness Network could not be used to allow him to bleed, since the rules (not card text) prevent him from taking this action (or any other action which is not a hunting action). [ quoted text not captured ]

Robert Goudie <robert...@studio.disney.com> writes: >L. Scott Johnson wrote: >> >> And if he had a restriction against bleeding (in this case, from the >> NRA rule), then he can't bleed at the end of your minion phase. >> > As an aside from the puzzle, can a minion who bleeds on Meth. A's turn >bleed again during Meth. B's turn if he has the ability to untap >(Homonculus, etc.). Sure. The restriction is only "per turn", not "between your untaps". He could bleed an arbitrary number of times with Force of Will if he also has a Heart of Darkness, for example. (Until his blood runs out, of course). [ quoted text not captured ]

aum...@io.com (Scott Shaw) writes: >In article <330B5A...@math.sc.edu>, >L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote: >>So, follow-up questions: >>How do you do it with an ally without Heidelburg? >Ok. Scapelli's got the LSJ Laptop and bleeds. >Then, that loser Nash decides to call a Kindred Segregation. Scapelli >is burned, the LSJ Laptop is discarded and those Giovanni are really >pissed at Nash. >Rudolpho plays Compel the Spirit at superior. Scapelli is back... Hooray! >Carlotta plays Whispers of the Dead and brings back the LSJ Laptop. >(It would take the same number of actions for Carlotta to take the Laptop >before Scapelli is burned and for him to take it back afterwards, but this >way is cooler) >Scapelli equips the Laptop. >Regina plays Precognizant Mobility to untap Scapelli. >Scapelli bleeds. This works perfectly. Excellent work. [ quoted text not captured ]

te...@lava.net (Alec Chang) writes: >On 19 Feb 1997 14:29:02 GMT, sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott >Johnson) wrote: >>Some clarifications, and a hint: >>sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes: >>>For the sake of this exercise, assume that this NRA history >>>is a restrictive until-end-of-turn effect that is generated >>>by a minion taking an action. >> >>That is, whenever a minion is the acting minion, an effect >>is generated. This effect is: that minion cannot perform >>another action of 'type' (where 'type' is the type of the >>current action). This is an until-end-of-turn effect. >So, then, whenever a minion even declares itself acting minion, the >effect takes place, regardless of whether a Mask of 1000 faces is >later played to modify the action, correct? Correct. >If the above isn't true, this is ridiculously simple. Take minion A >w/ laptop. Bleed. Have minion B with obfuscate mask the action, and [snip] >>>It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop >>>and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from >>>the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same >>>laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn >>>two pool from that bleed. >> >>>How? >> >>Hint: This is possible (given the right supporting cards) >>for *any* minion with a base bleed of one *except* for exactly >>one minion with a base bleed of one. >> >>It is easier for some minions, notably those with Fortitude. >> >>And a supporting vampire with a particular non-fortitude skill >>is required in all cases. (More supporters with other skills >>may be required depending on the minion in question). >Well, my argument holds with these requirements. The vampire with a >base bleed of one who can't do it is Beast, Mr. "I can't equip and I >don't care..."(although, LSJ, according to Shawn, Beast _can_ pull >this one off...) >Do I win, or is my first guess as to the meaning of your clarification >correct? No. Beast *can* pull this one off. 1) On a previous turn, have Beast diablerize an older vampire with a laptop. Give him fortitude. 2) Beast bleeds w/ Day operation. 3) An older vampire diablerizes Beast, with Day Op. 4) Some other vampire Possesses Beast. 5) Beast diablerizes the vampire who diablerized him. Give him fortitude. 6) Beast untaps with Freak Drive and bleeds again. [ quoted text not captured ]

Joshua Duffin wrote: > L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) wrote: > : Perfect. Yes indeed, a vampire (or minion) forgets all unseen effects > : and/or effects from cards or counters on him. (But, the LSJ vampire > : would still be the vampire targetted by a master card in play - like > : a Rack, if one had been pointing at him before the diablerie.) > > Go James go! So, figuring that you must have a ruling or six to back this > up, I have to ask - how do you know that the vamp with LSJ written on it > would still have the Rack pointing at it if it miraculously came back from > the even-more-dead? Because the Rack points at an instance of a vampire, not a meta-name. The Rack's effect continues (uselessly) if the target is burned or Banished. > I guess, since the question was based on the idea of 'history' in the game, > you must be trying to illustrate the vagaries and vicissitudes of applying > such a concept to a game like Jyhad... but clearly it really is a problematic > thing to do. Why does the LSJ-marked vamp remember that it has a Rack if > it's burned and comes back, but not if, for example, it's Banished, and > one with the same name comes out? Or if it's got a skill card, a Soul Gem, > and is burned, and a different copy of the same vamp, this one with MSG > written on it, shows up? The new copies merely share the same name, they are not the same instance of the vampire. Before cards could come back, Tom wrote: Subject: Re: Rules Team Rulings: 1/12/96 From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) Date: 1996/01/22 Message-Id: <4e11pk$7...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-Cards.jyhad Burning the vampire will definitely snap the benefits of the Rack, even if another vampire of the same name comes into play. If the chosen vampire becomes contested, and the new copy wins out, the Rack's effect will also end. The Rack effectively chooses a card, not a meta-name. Then, when cards could come back, the rule was amended: Subject: Rules Team Rulings: 1/24/96 From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) Date: 1996/01/24 Message-Id: <4e6902$t...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-Cards.jyhad 8) If a vampire is sent to the uncontrolled region, all "remainder of game" effects it applied to other cards end. However, all "remainder of game" effects that applied to it will still be in effect if the vampire returns to play. For example, if a Banished vampire had played Blood Bond on another vampire, the effect would end. But if the vampire has been the victim of the bond, or had been chosen for The Rack, the effect would start applying again when the vampire came back into play. [ quoted text not captured ]

sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes: >The Corrupter <sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu> writes: >>> And if he had a restriction against bleeding (in this case, from the >>> NRA rule), then he can't bleed at the end of your minion phase. >>Since this is in the rules set, and cards override rules, I could see an >>argument that this solution works. >>(Of course, I can see it the other way to. An official answer is >>important, because this is an odd example I could see coming up in game >>play). >The card text *doesn't* override this restriction. It overrides the >restriction against taking an action, not against performing a type >of action. >If the Malk was empty, the Madness Network could not be used to allow >him to bleed, since the rules (not card text) prevent him from taking >this action (or any other action which is not a hunting action). Sorry to follow up to my own post, but I just thought of a better example. Just as Eagle's Sight overcomes the restrictions on whose minions can block but doesn't override the rules for blocking (still need intercept to match stealth), Madness Network overcomes the restrictions on whose minions can act but doesn't override the rules for acting (NRA, Hunt-when-empty). [ quoted text not captured ]

> For the sake of this exercise, assume that this NRA history > is a restrictive until-end-of-turn effect that is generated > by a minion taking an action. > It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop > and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from > the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same > laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn > two pool from that bleed. Off the top of my head... To do two bleeds, the minion would have to untap (or do FoW, which would violate the NRA rule, so we'll leave that aside). You could untap with a Freak Drive; I don't see any way to perform a second action there without violating the NRA rule. The only thing I can think of is to Bleed for two with the minion. Before the action is successful, use Mask of 1000 Faces to move the bleed over to another minion. IIRC, modifiers from the equipment will carry over like any other modifiers (i.e. stealth, bleed bonuses generated from cards) etc. However, since the minion completing the action is not the minion who started it, the minion completing the action is considered to have performed the bleed in toto. This would allow the first minion (the one with the laptop) to bleed again for two. That's all I can think of. Alan (aj) > > How?

Steven Bucy (tb...@lainet.com) wrote: : : : L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote in article [ quoted text not captured ] :

Steven Bucy wrote: > > L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote in article > <5ed3kb$a...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>... > > <The last one was too easy, eh?> > > > > Under the DCI No Repeat Actions (NRA) rule, a minion > > may not attempt the same type of action more than > > once per turn. > > > > This involves "history" - that is, it involves some > > notion as to what has happened before. History is not > > discernable from the state of the cards and counters > > in play, in the hand, and in the ash heap. History > > is eschewed in CCGs, but is not always logistically > > avoidable. > > > > For the sake of this exercise, assume that this NRA history > > is a restrictive until-end-of-turn effect that is generated > > by a minion taking an action. > > > > It is possible, then, to have a minion bleed with a laptop > > and remain unblocked so that the prey loses two pool from > > the bleed and to have that same minion bleed with that same > > laptop later in the same turn and have the prey again burn > > two pool from that bleed. > > > > How? > > Suppose you have Angus, Raven, and Gitane and with a skill card, Soul Gem > of Etrius, and the laptop. Gitane bleeds your prey with a Day Operation. > Your prey is bleed for two. Raven Diablerizes Gitane and gets the lap top > and then Freak Drives. You draw for the Soul Gem and get another Gitane. The only problem I see here is that if the bearer of the Soul Gem is diablerized, Soul Gem states "burn this card". I thought this would mean that its effect would not take place, but now I am not sure. If its effect occurs, and then burns, then it makes it a somewhat more useful card. > Gitane then gets the Lap Top from Raven and Freak Drives. Gitane bleeds > your prey with a Day Op for two more. > > I hope this is better than my last attempt at one of these... > > -- > Steve Bucy > > I'd be better off undead... > > "Hmmm. I notice the number of conditional phrases in there... _seems_ to > indicate a weakness, _may_ be vulnerable in theory." - G'Kar -- Chris Shorb ino...@ix.netcom.com "How can I describe it?...It's a nightmare land, a place of death, horrifying in its desolation...Not a tree, not a flower, not a blade of grass..."

Howdy. First time posting, but I thought I saw an easier way to do Puzzler #3. All you need iis the cooperation of another player. Here's how it goes. Step 1: Rafael Giovanni gets a Laptop Computer and enough skill cards to choke a moose. (Obfuscate and Fortitude, actually) Step 2: Rafael Giovanni bleeds prey, sneaks past with Obfuscate, and untaps with Freak Drive. Step 3: Rafael Giovanni bleeds predator (special ability of Rafael; though actually anyone else could do it with certain cards, they would get a plus to bleed, and the puzzle called for a bleed of two.) Step 4: The cooperative and friendly predator kindly has a minion play Deflection to bounce the bleed over to prey. Step 5: Rafael bleeds again, with laptop computer, for a bleed of two. QED Would this work?

Stav Prodromou (#st...@ix.netcom.com) wrote: : Howdy. First time posting, but I thought I saw an easier way to do : Puzzler #3. All you need iis the cooperation of another player. : Here's how it goes. : Step 1: : Rafael Giovanni gets a Laptop Computer and enough skill cards to : choke a moose. (Obfuscate and Fortitude, actually) : Step 2: : Rafael Giovanni bleeds prey, sneaks past with Obfuscate, and untaps : with Freak Drive. : Step 3: : Rafael Giovanni bleeds predator (special ability of Rafael; though : actually anyone else could do it with certain cards, they would : get a plus to bleed, and the puzzle called for a bleed of two.) Rafael is prevented from attempting this action, since it is a bleed action and he has already bled once this turn. The target of the action is inconsequential. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com) Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

Your hint states that it can be done without Fortitude. How can you get a minion of your own into torpor without Fortitude? --- Liam Burke "Only a Malkavian would attack Cthulhu with laughing gas..." -overheard

>Would this work? Bleeding is the same action no matter who the target is, I believe. [ quoted text not captured ]

********** Posted from my personal account ********** jlb...@aol.com (JlB1925) writes: >Your hint states that it can be done without Fortitude. How can you get a >minion of your own into torpor without Fortitude? You don't need to get him in Torpor, you only need to get him burned. * Have a Tzimisce suffereing from Vicissitude Poisoning use Vicissitude to gain stealth on the bleed. * Sacrifice him if he's a Sabbat vampire after the bleed. * Burn him to remove an Antediluvian Awakening after the bleed * Untap him (with Precognizant Mobility) and have him commit diablerie. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Profanity is the crutch http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | of the inarticulate S.O.B. [ quoted text not captured ]