Why do Americans suck?

So, only one NorteAmericano in the final table at the *NAC*. Why? My honest feeling, VTES is stronger in Europe. I see tournaments in Hungary regularly drawing 35+ players. Few few few tournaments in US drawing that many players. Freaking Hungary - 10.5million people, compared to 300+million Americans. best - chris

[ quoted text not captured ] Is there a rule that says VTES can't be more popular in Europe than North America?

librarian <auct...@superfuncards.com> writes: [ quoted text not captured ] Blame the Swedes. They started it, by sending a small Swedish team to Finnish Ropecon (85 players), and winning the tournament. After that a group of Finns played at the Swedish Nationals, with the intention of getting revenge by winning the tournament - and succeeded. So it seems that Europeans kicking ass at the NAC is just the continuation of the tradition the Swedes started this summer. And therefore I predict the table-talk at the final round of this year's EC will mostly be done with thick American accents. HG

[ quoted text not captured ] While you may be right about the different attitude toward VTES in Europe, I think your comparison may be off-base. Yes, the U.S. has 300 million compared to Hungary's 10 million, but you're also forgetting that the U.S. is over 100 times the size of Hungary (about 9629091 km vs 93030 km). Factor the two together, and you'll realize that Hungary has over three times the population density as the U.S., which goes a long way towards explaining the discrepancy in tournament size. (And yes, 10 sounds about right for a U.S. tournament outside of the major cities). If you look at most of the other European countries, you'll get similar results. It's a distortion commonly mis-perceived by Americans with little European experience and Europeans with little American experience. The distance to get from one U.S. state to another neighboring U.S. state is often equivalent or even greater than the distance to get from one European country to its next door neighbor.

[ quoted text not captured ] This is quite true. Density is a serious factor. Getting from one area to another is definitely a commute, even in a metropolitan region. I know that as much as I love VtES, I wouldn't have the dedication as the Texas players to drive over 2 hours one-way to just get an irregular game in on the weekends. It's already hard enough in the metros to get people together as we have little free time/vacation time and we're spread out to the four winds. Also, lack of density makes for less public playing spaces that might attract casual observation. Quite a bit of USA VtES occurs at homes, which -- I don't actually know -- might be unusual in Europe (where we often here on the 'net about Europeans playing at bars and the like).

---- Original Message ----- From: "Azel" <opao...@yahoo.com> [snip] >might be unusual in Europe (where we often here on >the 'net about Europeans playing at bars and the like). Is there anywhere else to play? :)

[ quoted text not captured ] One of the reasons could be that Vtes, because of USA disperse population, has becomming increasingly endogamic ( you play in small groups and in tournament play you scarcely see new people playing). For this reason enviroment is less competitive, decks used are less agressive and more table friendly ( your friends don´t let you play your beloved Stanispurges deck !!!!). When american come to tournaments, change to tier-1 decks, but they are less accostomed to tier-1 enviroment that maybe european players. This is only a hypothesis.... could be absolutely false. Although I have seen NAC results and there are 2 european players in 3 finals and 1 in two.... that can´t be providence. PD: A Swede could have won the Finnish NC with a paraplegic deck... but Finnish Players also washed their honor by far winning Swedish NC with a full potence deck and that´s really something.

[ quoted text not captured ] Because blaming Parity Shift/contest rules instead of trying to improve deck building/playing style is the wrong way to go. :D

[ quoted text not captured ] americans in general try to be more creative, less focused, while europeans in general play more agressive and are more concerned about winning than having a good time. just my two cents

[ quoted text not captured ] Hungary: 107.7/km2 USA: 31/km2

[ quoted text not captured ] As you know my friend, it all depends on the european in question. ;-) The Swiss School (now dormant) was certainly representative of the most focused decks and willingness to win. In France it is a tendency too, although many of us want to have fun winning, not just "win". I dunno how it is in America, although the americans I met in european tournaments were good players (except a noob, a certain Jay something...). ;) BTW great to see you here, did you stop and start again ? Orpheus

[ quoted text not captured ] That's a lot of players per km2 !! ^^ Yes, imprecise data tends to generate incorrect conclusions... ;-) Correct Orph

> americans in general try to be more creative, less focused, while > europeans in general play more agressive and are more concerned about > winning than having a good time. just my two cents Fun is different for everyone, Stefan. Some like to win and figure out slim decks that wreck tables. Dont devalue the fun for people with your opinions. And on another note: Focused decks can be creative to. Maby I missunderstand you, but that claim is pretty wierd.

On Oct 9, 5:56 am, henrik <www.hen...@gmail.com> wrote: > Because blaming Parity Shift/contest rules instead of trying to > improve deck building/playing style is the wrong way to go. :D I love it when people are douchebags. Yaa! -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Damn, Denmark has 126/km2 but it doesnt seem like the number of players follow suit. It seems that size does matter... (damn you Mary Ann, you said it didnt!!!)

On Oct 9, 2:52 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > > Because blaming Parity Shift/contest rules instead of trying to > > improve deck building/playing style is the wrong way to go. :D > > I love it when people are douchebags. Yaa! There was a smiley there, just for you. I do think that there is some truth in it though. At least from what I've seen on this newsgroup and from discussing V:tES it seems that americans tend to look for the answer to losing in other things than europeans. If, when you lose a game, you blame the powerful cards your opponent played instead of looking at your own deck and play, you'll have a harder time evolving as a player. It's a huge generalisation to say that all americans are this way and all europeans are that way, but the indications I've gotten from newsgroup discussions points me to that direction.

[ quoted text not captured ] Really? I've seen no evidence of even one person from any continent "blaming" Parity Shift for a loss in the sense that you mean. I have seen quite a few people from a range of countries taking an honest look at ways in which the game might be improved, however.

On Oct 9, 9:37 am, henrik <www.hen...@gmail.com> wrote: > There was a smiley there, just for you. The smiley was noted and factored in. > I do think that there is some truth in it though. At least from what > I've seen on this newsgroup and from discussing V:tES it seems that > americans tend to look for the answer to losing in other things than > europeans. Well, no, not really. Like, certainly, I can only speak for myself, but when I look for answers to things that I think make the game less good than it could be, it isn't as the result of losing. It is the result of seeing imbalance. I (or whoever) can use overpowered game components just as much as anyone else can. I don't think Parity Shift is too powerful 'cause I can't beat people who play Parity Shift. I use Parity Shift all the time, and win with it all the time. And as a result of using it and beating the crap out of people with it, my assessment is "Parity Shift is probably too powerful" (along with comparison and general cost/benefit analysis). Banning RTI was not the result of "Wha! I keep getting killed by RTI and can't figure out how to deal with it!" It was the result of "This card is stupidly overpowered. Which is noted by playing it and vaporizing people with it. And unless my prey is using bounce, they get just outright killed. This card forces all decks to use bounce. And makes the game, as a result, blow." > If, when you lose a game, you blame the powerful cards your opponent > played instead of looking at your own deck and play, you'll have a > harder time evolving as a player. And again, the issue is not "Waa! I can't beat X! It is clearly broken!". The issue is "Huh. When I use X, it seems incredibly overpowered. I wonder if other people have the same experience?" The issue with contesting, similarly is not "Waa! I always lose when I get contested! I don't know what to do about it!" it is "Huh. This makes the game suck for everyone. And the game would probably be better if it were fixed." Assuming that people argue for things to be fixed 'cause they "can't figure out how to beat them" is completely misunderstanding what is going on here. > It's a huge generalisation to say > that all americans are this way and all europeans are that way, but > the indications I've gotten from newsgroup discussions points me to > that direction. Then you are clearly misunderstanding the discussion. -Peter

On Oct 9, 12:43 am, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > So, only one NorteAmericano in the final table at the *NAC*. Why? > Clearly, we've become a nation of pacifists, as our leader's recent Nobel Peace Prize proves... ;P DZ AW

> Well, no, not really. Like, certainly, I can only speak for myself, > but when I look for answers to things that I think make the game less > good than it could be, it isn't as the result of losing. It is the > result of seeing imbalance. I (or whoever) can use overpowered game > components just as much as anyone else can. I don't think Parity Shift > is too powerful 'cause I can't beat people who play Parity Shift. I > use Parity Shift all the time, and win with it all the time. And as a > result of using it and beating the crap out of people with it, my > assessment is "Parity Shift is probably too powerful" (along with > comparison and general cost/benefit analysis). It is also what has been done here for a long, long time. Take St�phane Lavrut's : he was world #1 at the time so nobody could say he accused cards of making him lose !! Still, he abused cards like Succubus Club while pointed out at the same time how broken those cards were. Because they were bad for the game, and he cared about the game. As I do. As Peter obviously does. LSJ doesn't care but he has to pretend a little. ;-) Caring Orph

"Orpheus" <orpheus....@free.fr> writes: > > Well, no, not really. Like, certainly, I can only speak for myself, > > but when I look for answers to things that I think make the game less > > good than it could be, it isn't as the result of losing. It is the > > result of seeing imbalance. I (or whoever) can use overpowered game > > components just as much as anyone else can. I don't think Parity Shift > > is too powerful 'cause I can't beat people who play Parity Shift. I > > use Parity Shift all the time, and win with it all the time. And as a > > result of using it and beating the crap out of people with it, my > > assessment is "Parity Shift is probably too powerful" (along with > > comparison and general cost/benefit analysis). > > It is also what has been done here for a long, long time. Take Stéphane > Lavrut's : he was world #1 at the time so nobody could say he accused cards > of making him lose !! Still, he abused cards like Succubus Club while > pointed out at the same time how broken those cards were. Because they were > bad for the game, and he cared about the game. As I do. As Peter obviously > does. LSJ doesn't care but he has to pretend a little. ;-) > > Caring Orph A good example is the Ropecon 2004 tournament winning deck by Riku Niittymäki, named "Fix me, please": http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2k4ropecon Pretty soon after, Anarch Revolt did get fixed. HG

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Stefan Ferenci wrote: > americans in general try to be more creative, less focused, while > europeans in general play more agressive and are more concerned about > winning than having a good time. just my two cents Hey Stefan! Hope to see you in Palma (losing to me at the final table). I think what you say may be true to a degree, but I think there's a reason why. It isn't that Americans are more creative people or want to win less. It's that we tend to have smaller playgroups and smaller tournaments. When you attend a 10 player tournament, you can basically play any deck that doesn't completely suck and you will have a 50% chance of making the final. You can make the final by accident. You can make the final with 1 VP sometimes. Good players know that any deck can win a final by good seating choice, good luck, table dynamics, etc. So Americans play a lot of "creative" (i.e. bad) decks. I know I do. When you're instead looking at a 65 player tournament, you probably are going to want to leave the Nagaraja vote deck at home if you want to make the final because you're going to need a lot more than one lucky table to get there. If anything, I would say Americans maybe have some trouble adjusting to the larger tournaments. We tend to still play our silly decks that do okay at home because we don't play that many large tournaments or when we do, we play against other Americans who are also playing silly decks. Having played more than a few friendly games on your side of the Atlantic, I know that Euros do build and enjoy the same stupid decks that Americans do. They just don't bring them to major tournaments. I can recall you playing some kind of Huitzilopotchtli Condemntation deck when I visited Vienna. Matt Morgan

> Having played more than a few friendly > games on your side of the Atlantic, I know that Euros do build and > enjoy the same stupid decks that Americans do. They just don't bring > them to major tournaments. Sounds like a pretty good analysis to me, and accurate for a vast majority of european players I know (me included). Orpheus

"librarian" <auct...@superfuncards.com> wrote in message news:hamf1s$as7$1...@news.eternal-september.org... > So, only one NorteAmericano in the final table at the *NAC*. Why? > > My honest feeling, VTES is stronger in Europe. I see tournaments in Hungary regularly drawing 35+ players. Few few few > tournaments in US drawing that many players. Freaking Hungary - 10.5million people, compared to 300+million Americans. I think some of this is due to geography. We have a little playgroup in Phoenix. You have a little playgroup in Los Angeles. There's a couple of solid guys up in Vegas, a couple more in San Diego. If all these places were within 60 miles of each other, we could have a lot more bigger tournaments and get better through the competition. In Europe, a lot more of these places are within 60 miles of each other. I don't know if explains everything, but I think it makes a lot of difference. Fred

On Oct 9, 11:04 am, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Stefan Ferenci wrote: > > americans in general try to be more creative, less focused, while > > europeans in general play more agressive and are more concerned about > > winning than having a good time. just my two cents > If anything, I would say Americans maybe have some trouble adjusting to > the larger tournaments. We tend to still play our silly decks that do > okay at home because we don't play that many large tournaments or when we > do, we play against other Americans who are also playing silly decks. > Having played more than a few friendly games on your side of the Atlantic, > I know that Euros do build and enjoy the same stupid decks that Americans > do. They just don't bring them to major tournaments. I can recall you > playing some kind of Huitzilopotchtli Condemntation deck when I visited > Vienna. > > Matt Morgan I completely agree with this, Matt..... and Chris, your "just a feeling" is actually fact. Europe has always had the larger tournament scene….(by 30 percent!) ….. at least since I’ve been keeping records. (Jan 02) The Last Chance Qualifier in Prague last year sported 160 people! Robyn Tatu

"Stefan Ferenci" <a950...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote in message news:c6817492-c38a-46fa...@a7g2000yqo.googlegroups.com... > On 9 Okt., 06:43, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > > So, only one NorteAmericano in the final table at the *NAC*. Why? > > > > My honest feeling, VTES is stronger in Europe. I see tournaments in > > Hungary regularly drawing 35+ players. Few few few tournaments in US > > drawing that many players. Freaking Hungary - 10.5million people, > > compared to 300+million Americans. > > americans in general try to be more creative, less focused, while > europeans in general play more agressive and are more concerned about > winning than having a good time. just my two cents If there's any validity to this at all, I would suspect it doesn't have anything to do national character or anything like that. Americans can be as competitive as anyone, IMO. But I do think that larger tournaments tend to attract more hardcore personalities and convert people into more competing in a more results-oriented way. That was my observation when Magic started having big tournaments with better prizes. All of sudden I was playing against a different type of player when that happened. If Europe has bigger tournaments and Europe also has players with playing styles that are more hardcore and results-oriented than experimental and interesting, I don't think that's a coincidence. Fred

On Oct 9, 6:04 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > I know that Euros do build and enjoy the same stupid decks that Americans > do. They just don't bring them to major tournaments. Speak for yourself. I intend to pack along quite a few stupid decks for the EC. :D Then again, I never tend to get all that many VPs, so there may be a connection... -Petri

I think Matt's analysis is fair. I think it's also true that there isn't really a European meta (apart from Pentax Subersion (tm)) and i'm sure if you looked at the LCQ in Prague last year you would have seen a wide range of decks however in general they will be more focused on trying to get a GW rather than trick X as you really have to out of 160 players if you want to qualify (Norm's Basilia deck being a great exception). An interesting experiment would be to try and categorise all the decks played in LCQ, Day 1, Day 2 in Palma this year. (I already do this is my geeky notebook for each table I play on between deck archetype, groupings, dominate & auspex) and to compare with a set of other large events e.g. Origins then you can see if there is much difference between the overall metas. Of course this won't help you tell the difference between a tuned grp 4-5 Brujah vote deck and a more shakey one.

[ quoted text not captured ] Right, they both lose... :(

[ quoted text not captured ] We also tend to be better lovers, that's a fact and no coincidence either; Or so Reyda tells me... ^^

> > Or so Reyda tells me... ^^- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Reyda is telling you that you're a better lover than Jay? No way DJ Assface for the win....

On Oct 9, 1:17 pm, "Orpheus" <orpheus.TAKEOU...@free.fr> wrote: > We also tend to be better lovers, that's a fact and no coincidence either; > > Or so Reyda tells me... ^^ ? Reyda tells you you're a better lover than Americans? Boy gets around, don't he? Remind me not to share a room with him at the next NAC... ;P DZ AW

I agree with what Matt Morgan said. I think you can look at the First Chance Qualifier final to see some truth in people's comments. There were four Americans and one European, Erol, who won. I personally was playing a silly deck that I qualified with essentially through luck. It was a Cassandra, Magus Prime superstar deck using Celerity & Thaumaturgy hand strikes, smaller Dominate vampires for support, and some Tremere toolbox stuff. With luck and Dominate, the deck has gotten me to two finals, but I know it's probably not going to win a tournament. It's just fun to play. The other Americans were playing very good decks, but I'm not sure how their deck archetypes stacked up in the scale of Tier 1, 2, etc. (weenie Auspex w/combat allies, Animalism/Deep Song featuring Ashur Tablets, Toreador vote with new tech). Erol, the European winner, was definitely playing a Tier 1 deck: Ventrue/Vote/Obfuscate/Mind Rape starring Arika. His deck had 8 Mind Rapes, which would set you back $200+ on E-bay right now. He is also an amazing player, somehow getting other players to do things (like rescuing Arika from torpor) that they really shouldn't do and just playing very well. When I saw his deck in Game 2, I knew it outclassed everything else on the table, and I think it also outclassed everything at the final table. It was a killer deck. In my local playgroup, I think there has been a shift from scarily competitive decks when I started playing again last year to decks that are creative yet still competitive. It's more fun, but you don't have to have a killer deck every time to keep from being ousted in the first 30 minutes. When we have tournaments or a lot of visiting players, the competition intensifies, but that only happens a few times a year. If those other play groups were closer or there were more tournaments here, I think all my decks would have to be much more tuned to keep up. Europeans are going to be more competitive just because they can be in more tournaments and travel to more play groups.

On Oct 9, 8:16 am, "Nikolaj \"Lord of the Betrayers\" Wendt" <nikolajwe...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> So, only one NorteAmericano in the final table at the *NAC*. Why? > > > >> My honest feeling, VTES is stronger in Europe. I see tournaments in > > >> Hungary regularly drawing 35+ players. Few few few tournaments in US > > >> drawing that many players. Freaking Hungary - 10.5million people, > > >> compared to 300+million Americans. > > > > Hungary: 107.7/km2 > > > USA: 31/km2 > > > That's a lot of players per km2 !! ^^ > > > Yes, imprecise data tends to generate incorrect conclusions... ;-) > > > Correct Orph > > Damn, Denmark has 126/km2 but it doesnt seem like the number of > players follow suit. > It seems that size does matter... (damn you Mary Ann, you said it > didnt!!!) Well, population density helps explain some of it, but you can break down the issue even more: - To improve accuracy, you also need to look at where the population centers are within the particular country. For example, Russia, Canada, and Denmark (if you consider Greenland but most calculations don't seem to include it) contain vast stretches of unoccupied land - their populations are significantly concentrated in certain locations, so using a straightforward population density metric may be misleading. - Also, the shape of the land is also relevant. Chile is roughly the same size as Turkey, but transportation in Chile is going to be much more challenging if you live on one end of the country and are trying to get all the way across to the other. This problem is evident in the U.S. if you look at the East Coast compared to the West Coast - distance between these playgroups is a significant barrier. - And of course, there may also be cultural factors (religiosity may affect the popularity of a game about vampires), economic factors (prevalence of gaming stores), and demographic factors (populations with lots of minors or lots of senior citizens are less likely to have lots of VTES players). Etc. One thing I am impressed by my fellow Americans, is a greater willingness to travel for casual/local tournaments. It's quite normal to travel an hour away to get to a nearby tournament, and driving 2-3 hours or more is not unheard of either. In contrast, from what I've heard many Europeans are loathe to travel to neighboring countries for events even if the physical distance may not be too significant (exception for major tournaments/qualifiers/championships). Two final anecdotes which might provide some additional perspective. While living in the U.K. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that many letters and packages arrive within a day (sometimes two) of sending them. In the U.S., you'd regularly expect up to 3-5 days, so it was nice to receive an order the very next day. Similarly, some of the Brits were often surprised when I mentioned that I lived in the Chicago suburbs, an hour away from the city. They'd often reply that if they lived an hour away from London, they wouldn't consider themselves to be from London! But what explains these phenomena is that England (which constitutes a little over half the land area of the United Kingdom), is actually a bit smaller than the state of Illinois. So if your comparison is mailing within the state (instead of across the country), you have a better idea of the geographic context. Not to mention that England has 51 million people compared to Illinois' 13 million - making it four times as dense. Getting back to the Hungary example, Hungary is just slightly smaller than the state of Indiana. Hungary has about one and a half times the population of Indiana. Budapest has twice the population of Indianapolis, but only half as large in land area, resulting in a population density four times as large. In Indiana, you also have some split population centers. Besides the hub in central Indiana (Indianapolis), you also have significant pockets in the Northwest (around Gary, which are more affiliated to Chicago/Illinois than to Indianapolis) and in the North/Northeast (which probably have closer ties to Michigan/Ohio). I'm not an expert on Hungary, but I'd hazard a guess that the population in Indiana is probably more fractured than that of Hungary (which benefits from national sentiment). So in conclusion, trying to compare Hungary to the entirety of the United States, is going to lead to a distorted perspective.

[ quoted text not captured ] Yeah, my bad. I'll never cross table rescue Arika again.....lesson learned. Sorry Aaron. I should have left her for Mustafa to munch

[ quoted text not captured ] I haven't played in a couple of years, but I plan on getting back to it next year. I really would have to get back into the game to discern all these tiers of decks, but in Cincinnati we have seen a lot of combat-heavy play that seems to do well against Euro-style decks. Arika can't do much in torpor. Any other Ohio players want to chime in?

On Oct 9, 12:48 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > librarian wrote: > > So, only one NorteAmericano in the final table at the *NAC*. Why? > > > My honest feeling, VTES is stronger in Europe. I see tournaments in > > Hungary regularly drawing 35+ players. Few few few tournaments in US > > drawing that many players. Freaking Hungary - 10.5million people, > > compared to 300+million Americans. > > Hungary: 107.7/km2 > USA: 31/km2 Population density plays in. But it's not very exact. In Sweden it's about 20,6/km2 and our tournaments usually have 10-20 participants with some events reaching 30-40 players each year (usually with the help of other Europeans). In Sweden a huge part of that area is just unused land though and I'm guessing it's probably the same for the US. So it would be interesting to see the numbers for the population density on the north east coast of the US and for the southern half of Sweden. Those would probably give a more correct comparison if one would like to compare these countries to say Hungary. Regards Alex

On Oct 9, 8:09 am, h...@iki.fi (Janne Hägglund) wrote: > librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> writes: > > So, only one NorteAmericano in the final table at the *NAC*. Why? > > > My honest feeling, VTES is stronger in Europe. I see tournaments in Hungary > > regularly drawing 35+ players. Few few few tournaments in US drawing that > > many players. Freaking Hungary - 10.5million people, compared to 300+million > > Americans. > > Blame the Swedes. > > They started it, by sending a small Swedish team to Finnish Ropecon (85 > players), and winning the tournament. > > After that a group of Finns played at the Swedish Nationals, with the > intention of getting revenge by winning the tournament - and succeeded. > > So it seems that Europeans kicking ass at the NAC is just the continuation of > the tradition the Swedes started this summer. > > And therefore I predict the table-talk at the final round of this year's EC > will mostly be done with thick American accents. > > HG This post is mint. We will from now on take credit for all increases to active Vtes players worldwide ;) //Alex

[ quoted text not captured ] And this seems like a solid enough explanation to the why. We've had the same problem in Sweden from time to time and at those times we (the players that are good enough and interested enough to be bothered) has to look outside our borders to learn more about VtES. So we looked to Germany, Hungary, Switzerland, and of course we looked to France and we learned alot. Guess we looked all over the world with a focus on France. We do however still have the benefit of these big VtES countries being rather close to us. As an example it usually costs about 100 SEK for the flight and 250 SEK for the bus to go to the nationals in Germany from Göteborg where I'm located. If you're located in Örebro or Stockholm you can make the same trip to both Germany or France. My point is that in those times where we suffer reduced numbers of players in the Swedish tournaments we are still pretty close to the rest of Europe and have every opportunity to join the discussion and play in the big events. I would imagine that it is harder to do this if you're, like you, located on the US east coast. Regards Alex

Does someone know how much Vtes boxes are selled to America in comparisson to Europe? This could be a good indicator to Vtes activity in both continents, and could explain the results on NAC 2009.

On Thu, 08 Oct 2009 21:43:36 -0700, librarian <auct...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > So, only one NorteAmericano in the final table at the *NAC*. Why? > > My honest feeling, VTES is stronger in Europe. I see tournaments in > Hungary regularly drawing 35+ players. Few few few tournaments in US > drawing that many players. Freaking Hungary - 10.5million people, > compared to 300+million Americans. Agreed - Hungarians just kick ass! :) But yeah, beside that, there are other factors (as more or less mentioned elsewhere). The main point is, however, that V:tES is popular in Hungary because there are a number of influential V:tES players (e.g. store owners) who promote the game. Another point not mentioned is that the Hungarian National Championship is organised for the 4th year in a row to bring high-level tournaments close to the players living in the smaller cities. There are also special newbie tournaments, where the prizes are low, but each entrant gets a truckload of useful commons / vampires, plus each table gets a judge who offers advice after each game. I think more than anything, enthusiastic people (especially store owners) make or break the V:tES community. The rest is mostly logistics. For the sake of completeness, I must mention that V:tES was stronger in Hungary about 5-6 years ago - we had 60-80 people tournaments, compared to the current 40s. There are a number of factors (old timers getting kids, some people leaving the game, folks skipping the "unfun" tournaments, organiser focus on 40-something tournaments) causing this. -- Regards, Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] I can't speak for all US sellers, but 98% of my business is to non-US players. Boxes and singles. Carpe noctem. The Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com Your best source of V:TES information. Now also selling boxes and individual cards.

The Lasombra wrote: > "Dr.Mafrune" wrote: >> Does someone know how much Vtes boxes are selled to America in >> comparisson to Europe? >> This could be a good indicator to Vtes activity in both continents, >> and could explain the results on NAC 2009. > > I can't speak for all US sellers, but 98% of my business is to non-US > players. Boxes and singles. I sell cards on eBay and I will second what Lasombra has said, in that 90% of my sales are to non-US customers. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html

On Oct 9, 6:51 pm, Martel732 <bowle...@gmail.com> wrote: > I haven't played in a couple of years, but I plan on getting back to > it next year. I really would have to get back into the game to discern > all these tiers of decks, but in Cincinnati we have seen a lot of > combat-heavy play that seems to do well against Euro-style decks. > Arika can't do much in torpor. Any other Ohio players want to chime > in? Not an Ohio player, but one factor that may affect what you observe is the density of combat on the table. If there are 3 combat decks, and 1 or two squishy decks, those "fast, tier 1" decks tend to get clocked. And then the combat decks can either coin flip for the win, because combat vs. combat is the most random element of play, or the person who manipulates the table best wins. Flip it around, though, and be the lone combat deck on a table full of fast non-combat, and you're probably a king maker. -- David Cherryholmes

[ quoted text not captured ] Part of that also, I suspect is that places like Australia are only just starting to get a decent enough bulk of players and collections to support their own Singles-Retailers. So the US (where the game basically started) had the earlier opportunity to get to the critical mass of players and cards.

Juggernaut1981 schrieb: [ quoted text not captured ] Also the weak $ does its work there I suppose.

On 9 Okt., 17:04, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Stefan Ferenci wrote: > > americans in general try to be more creative, less focused, while > > europeans in general play more agressive and are more concerned about > > winning than having a good time. just my two cents > > Hey Stefan! Hope to see you in Palma (losing to me at the final table). > sadly not work, private life wont allow it. also since working as a shrink i really dont enjoy the brainfucking ah the tabletalk anymore. it reminds me to much of work. > So Americans play a lot of "creative" (i.e. bad) decks. > less focused yes > can recall you > playing some kind of Huitzilopotchtli Condemntation deck when I visited > Vienna. > dont remember me :-) > Matt Morgan stefan

On Oct 8, 9:43 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > So, only one NorteAmericano in the final table at the *NAC*. Why? > > My honest feeling, VTES is stronger in Europe. I see tournaments in > Hungary regularly drawing 35+ players. Few few few tournaments in US > drawing that many players. Freaking Hungary - 10.5million people, > compared to 300+million Americans. > > best - > > chris One of the weird things is how East Asia factors into the density discussion. VtES Japan is all but an unknown quantity -- there, but not much correspondence. And VtES Korea is non-existent (I know, I looked. Couldn't find anything. D: ). However, if you look at their land and city density levels, they blow Europe out of the water. And they do have gamers galore, both PC and table, so that's not really the problem. Part of the issue might be the ideas of public spaces. There's a place every few feet to drink coffee or alcohol in Tokyo or Seoul, but rarely do you see regulars sitting at the bar shootin' the shit (unless it's an expat place). Often drinking culture is communal, as in you go to a location together as a group, and bar hop as a party. It's not like meeting regulars or friends at a designated watering hole and passing the time. And further these get-togethers are business oriented or date oriented, precluding VtES being the prominent form of entertainment. Also people do not play as openly at school campuses or libraries and the like -- well from what I've seen. Usually, if I saw anything, it was at Game Rooms where they rent time and table space to play games. They work essentially like PC cafes with food and drinks available and service to bring it to you if you were busy. And most of these places tended to be dating places, where couples could play Settlers of Catan or Uno, wear silly hats, and hit each other with squeaky toy hammers. I don't know if that is conducive recruiting territory (at least, I never tried to introduce VtES here). So, I think there is definitely something else involved with why Europe likes VtES so much. Perhaps it has to do with density AND a cultural framework of how to use public space and socialize with friends?

@ Azel, Japan/China loves their CCG's though. I just don't think any of them really relates to VTES as a setting. Heck, a brief glance at your typical VTES audience shows that it's mostly Caucasian males.

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, that can be said about all levels and types of hobby gaming (CCGs, RPGs, and Miniature games (all tabletop)). I think it's because a) there hasn't been a set that specifically addresses Asia. MTG had the 3 Kingdoms set (which may have come after it was popular in Japan/China/Korea). And b) no marketing done in Japan. If WW/CCP partnered with the right stores, they could have some presence. Another thing that specifically relates to Japan, and maybe the other countries. Japanese tend to be very brand conscious. MTG, Pokemon, YGO are very strong brands. VTES, not so much. For that reason I think the VTES hasn't taken more than a toehold there. best - chris

Johannes Walch wrote: > Juggernaut1981 schrieb: >> Part of that also, I suspect is that places like Australia are only >> just starting to get a decent enough bulk of players and collections >> to support their own Singles-Retailers. So the US (where the game >> basically started) had the earlier opportunity to get to the critical >> mass of players and cards. > > Also the weak $ does its work there I suppose. what are you talking about? the dollar is strong! ohhh....you mean the weak _US_ dollar. (Having said that, a "strong" Aussie dollar against the US still only buys us around US 92c. Although it's been tipped to rise to reach parity, and some corners are tipping it could go as high as AUD$1 = US$1.10) it's awesome as a consumer. It'd suck if i was an exporter though. Which reminds me, need to buy some tshirts on-line... -- salem Australian player since 1994 (replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)

[ quoted text not captured ] ....but make sure you share a room with Orpheus... -- salem (a little late to the discussion. I blame Left 4 Dead)

On Oct 11, 5:21 pm, dcherryholmes <david.cherryhol...@gmail.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] I like the term "combat density". I'd say Ohio is about at the level of mercury. The Newark greeting is to wreck your pred's first vamp, just so they know what's up. My decks probably have way too much combat defense for a general field.