Mata Hari/Gargoyle question

Want to verify: When a Tremere plays 'Create Gargoyle', the resulting Gargoyle is considered a slave to Clan Tremere - even if the acting Tremere later Clan Impersonates to (arbitarily) Ventrue, because the card doesn't look backwards to keep checking what clan it is a slave to. So since that's the case, when Mata Hari plays Create Gargoyle as a Tremere with her 'as if she were a member of that clan' special, the resulting Gargoyle is a slave to Tremere, and not Ravnos, because at the point where the master-clan is checked for, she's counting as a Tremere for the effects of the Create Gargoyle she's playing? -John Flournoy

[ quoted text not captured ] Or !Tremere, whichever she plays it as. Yes. John

jnew...@difsol.com wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] However, she's not playing the card "as" a particular Sect. So if Mata Hari plays Create Gargoyle "as a Tremere", she should create an Independent Tremere Slave (due to the fact that Create Gargoyle's card text specifically gains the Sect of the acting vampire). Correct?

Jozxyqk wrote: > > However, she's not playing the card "as" a particular Sect. > > So if Mata Hari plays Create Gargoyle "as a Tremere", she should > create an Independent Tremere Slave (due to the fact that Create Gargoyle's > card text specifically gains the Sect of the acting vampire). Correct? I'd think yes, and no. She'll create a Tremere Slave (or !Tremere Slave) of the same sect as she currently belongs to. Eg, she Clan Impersonated to Lasombra earlier and thus the Gargoyle would be Sabbat no matter if she chose to make it Tremere or !Tremere. Sten During

>However, she's not playing the card "as" a particular Sect. Sure she is. She's playing it as the default sect for Tremere or !Tremere, just as merged Kemintiri is playing cards as a Camarilla whenever she plays cards as a Ventrue. So no, she cannot in fact create Independent Gargoyles. But they can always go anarch... Eric Simon Prince of Chicago

vol...@yahoo.com wrote: > >However, she's not playing the card "as" a particular Sect. > > Sure she is. She's playing it as the default sect for Tremere or > !Tremere, just as merged Kemintiri is playing cards as a Camarilla > whenever she plays cards as a Ventrue. I don't think I agree with what you're saying here. The arguments made about Kemintiri revolve around LSJ pointing out that "'Requires a justicar' is shorthand for 'Requires a Camarilla vampire with a justicar title'". But 'Requires a Ventrue' is NOT the same thing as 'Requires a Camarilla Ventrue'; nothing prevents Mata Hari from playing cards as an independent Ventrue, nor does anything about playing a card as a Ventrue inherently or by card text override the text on her card saying "Independent" and force her to play cards as a Camarilla Ventrue. If there was a hypothetical 'requires an Anarch Tremere' card, and Mata Hari was Anarch, she could play it; choosing to play it as a Tremere would not force her to also play it as a Camarilla Tremere. > So no, she cannot in fact create Independent Gargoyles. But they can > always go anarch... So she'd almost certainly be playing Create Gargoyle as either an Independent Tremere or an Independent !Tremere, and the card text of Create Gargoyle checks the creator's specific sect, not the default sect of whatever clan the creator is. And this sort of question is why I'm waiting for LSJ to step in with Official answers. > Eric Simon > Prince of Chicago -John Flournoy -Underling of Chicago

John Flournoy wrote: > vol...@yahoo.com wrote: >>>However, she's not playing the card "as" a particular Sect. >>Sure she is. She's playing it as the default sect for Tremere or >>!Tremere, just as merged Kemintiri is playing cards as a Camarilla >>whenever she plays cards as a Ventrue. > > I don't think I agree with what you're saying here. > > The arguments made about Kemintiri revolve around LSJ pointing out that > "'Requires a justicar' is shorthand for 'Requires a Camarilla vampire > with a justicar title'". > > But 'Requires a Ventrue' is NOT the same thing as 'Requires a Camarilla > Ventrue'; nothing prevents Mata Hari from playing cards as an > independent Ventrue, nor does anything about playing a card as a > Ventrue inherently or by card text override the text on her card saying > "Independent" and force her to play cards as a Camarilla Ventrue. > > If there was a hypothetical 'requires an Anarch Tremere' card, and Mata > Hari was Anarch, she could play it; choosing to play it as a Tremere > would not force her to also play it as a Camarilla Tremere. Correct. If she is Independent and plays a card that requires a Tremere as a Tremere, she plays it as an Independent Tremere. >>So no, she cannot in fact create Independent Gargoyles. But they can >>always go anarch... > > So she'd almost certainly be playing Create Gargoyle as either an > Independent Tremere or an Independent !Tremere, and the card text of > Create Gargoyle checks the creator's specific sect, not the default > sect of whatever clan the creator is. Correct. > And this sort of question is why I'm waiting for LSJ to step in with > Official answers. If a correct answer is given and no incorrect ones are, there's no need for me to step in. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

[ quoted text not captured ] It's good to know the other people weren't just guessing, though. -Bram Vink

Darky wrote: >>If a correct answer is given and no incorrect ones are, there's no > > need > >>for me to step in. > > > It's good to know the other people weren't just guessing, though. You'll know they're right because I don't step in to offer a correction. :-) If you absolutely have to have my word in it, put [LSJ] in the subject.