Q: Rotschreck vs Elysium

Quick question: does Elysium trump Rotscrek? In other words, if I have a waepon which deals aggra damage, and block a minion which uses Elysium to end combat, can I still play Rotschreck? Also about Rotschreck: what exactly are the conditions for playing it, and when should it be played? As far as I recall there was a ruling which said the aggra source must be workable at the range chosen (Sengir Dagger as long range would not work), but is there anything else? For example: minion A with Sengir blocks minion B. A plays Rotschreck. B then maneuvers to long. Rotschreck fizzles? Or do you have to wait until strikes are chosen to play Rotschreck? Example 2: minion A with Ivory Bow blocks minion B. B dodges. A strikes with bow. A plays Rotschreck. This works, right? And it still works if the opposing minion had played combat ends? ...just want to get this straight in my head for week's Ropecon'99 tournament. //Petri

> Quick question: does Elysium trump Rotscrek? In other words, if I have > a waepon which deals aggra damage, and block a minion which uses > Elysium to end combat, can I still play Rotschreck? No, because you can only use the Elysium before range is determined. At that point, you did not have the opportunity to declare you strike. It is only after you declare you strike that you can play Rotz because it is only then that you are *attempting* to do agg damage. > Also about Rotschreck: what exactly are the conditions for playing it, > and when should it be played? As far as I recall there was a ruling > which said the aggra source must be workable at the range chosen > (Sengir Dagger as long range would not work), but is there anything > else? Not that I can think of. > For example: minion A with Sengir blocks minion B. A plays > Rotschreck. B then maneuvers to long. Rotschreck fizzles? Or do you > have to wait until strikes are chosen to play Rotschreck? You have to wait until strikes are chosen/declared. You have to attempt to do the agg damage in the first place. > Example 2: minion A with Ivory Bow blocks minion B. B dodges. A > strikes with bow. A plays Rotschreck. This works, right? And it still > works if the opposing minion had played combat ends? Yes and yes. I'm sure LSJ will say if I have anything wrong, but I don't believe I do. Sorrow

Sorrow wrote: > > > Quick question: does Elysium trump Rotscrek? In other words, if I have > > a waepon which deals aggra damage, and block a minion which uses > > Elysium to end combat, can I still play Rotschreck? > > No, because you can only use the Elysium before range is determined. > At that point, you did not have the opportunity to declare you strike. > It is only after you declare you strike that you can play Rotz because it > is only then that you are *attempting* to do agg damage. Right. > > Also about Rotschreck: what exactly are the conditions for playing it, > > and when should it be played? As far as I recall there was a ruling > > which said the aggra source must be workable at the range chosen > > (Sengir Dagger as long range would not work), but is there anything > > else? > > Not that I can think of. Right. The only condition is as stated on the card: "when a minion attempts to use aggravated damage against a vampire". The effective at current range part stems from the "against a vampire" part - at long range, your Sengir Dagger strike isn't really against the opposing vampire - it's against the air in front of you. > > For example: minion A with Sengir blocks minion B. A plays > > Rotschreck. B then maneuvers to long. Rotschreck fizzles? Or do you > > have to wait until strikes are chosen to play Rotschreck? > > You have to wait until strikes are chosen/declared. You have to > attempt to do the agg damage in the first place. > > > Example 2: minion A with Ivory Bow blocks minion B. B dodges. A > > strikes with bow. A plays Rotschreck. This works, right? And it still > > works if the opposing minion had played combat ends? > > Yes and yes. Correct. > I'm sure LSJ will say if I have anything wrong, You haven't. > but I don't believe I do. Well I should hope so. Posting answers you believe to be wrong would be out of character, indeed. :-) -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp

Petri wrote: > Quick question: does Elysium trump Rotscrek? In other words, if I have > a waepon which deals aggra damage, and block a minion which uses > Elysium to end combat, can I still play Rotschreck? Sorrow wrote: > No, because you can only use the Elysium before range is determined. > At that point, you did not have the opportunity to declare you strike. > It is only after you declare you strike that you can play Rotz because it > is only then that you are *attempting* to do agg damage. LSJ wrote: > Right. Petri wrote: > Also about Rotschreck: what exactly are the conditions for playing it, > and when should it be played? As far as I recall there was a ruling > which said the aggra source must be workable at the range chosen > (Sengir Dagger as long range would not work), but is there anything > else? Sorrow wrote: > Not that I can think of. LSJ wrote: > Right. The only condition is as stated on the card: "when a minion attempts > to use aggravated damage against a vampire". The effective at current range > part stems from the "against a vampire" part - at long range, your Sengir > Dagger strike isn't really against the opposing vampire - it's against > the air in front of you. Hmm.. this brings up a question for me:Can Rotshcreck be used with the Dawn Op + Weather Control combo? I guess what that boils down to is whether that particular aggravated damage is considered to be a minion attempting to use aggravated damage or if it's environmental damage, like a Carrion Crows or similar. Say my vampire blocks my opponent while he's attempting a Dawn Op'ed action. I play a Weather Control so my opponent is toast with me unless he has a Skin of Night. He does. Can I play a Rotschreck on him then or no? Thanks.[snipped] p.

Patrick Harris wrote: > Petri wrote: > > > Also about Rotschreck: what exactly are the conditions for playing it, > > and when should it be played? As far as I recall there was a ruling > > which said the aggra source must be workable at the range chosen > > (Sengir Dagger as long range would not work), but is there anything > > else? > > Sorrow wrote: > > > Not that I can think of. > > LSJ wrote: > > > Right. The only condition is as stated on the card: "when a minion attempts > > to use aggravated damage against a vampire". The effective at current range > > part stems from the "against a vampire" part - at long range, your Sengir > > Dagger strike isn't really against the opposing vampire - it's against > > the air in front of you. > > Hmm.. this brings up a question for me:Can Rotshcreck be used with the Dawn Op > + Weather Control combo? I guess what that boils down to is whether that > particular aggravated damage is considered to be a minion attempting to use > aggravated damage or if it's environmental damage, like a Carrion Crows or > similar. Rotschreck - Master Out-Of-Turn * Cannot be played in response to aggravated damage done from "environmental" sources. [RTR 13-NOV-1996] Damage (Combat) * Damage is only considered to have come from a minion if the damage is from a strike or if an effect specifically states that the damage is dealt by the minion. Damage from other effects is considered "environmental," and has no particular source. [RTR 30-JUN-1997] > Say my vampire blocks my opponent while he's attempting a Dawn Op'ed action. I > play a Weather Control so my opponent is toast with me unless he has a Skin of > Night. He does. Can I play a Rotschreck on him then or no? No. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Example 2: minion A with Ivory Bow blocks minion B. B dodges. A > strikes with bow. A plays Rotschreck. This works, right? And it still > works if the opposing minion had played combat ends? I think this is rather straightforward, but what about if the opposing vampire strikes something that would cause damage to the vampire playing Rotschreck? Would Rotschreck negate the strikes effect? > ...just want to get this straight in my head for week's Ropecon'99 > tournament. See you there... Tuomas Rinta työ: +358-9-70844393 gsm: +358-40-5838021 tuomas...@helsinki.fi \ tuomas...@pp.inet.fi

Tuomas Rinta wrote: > > > Example 2: minion A with Ivory Bow blocks minion B. B dodges. A > > strikes with bow. A plays Rotschreck. This works, right? And it still > > works if the opposing minion had played combat ends? > > I think this is rather straightforward, but what about if the opposing > vampire strikes something that would cause damage to the vampire playing > Rotschreck? Would Rotschreck negate the strikes effect? Vampires don't play Rotschreck - Methuselahs do. Rotschreck ends combat immediately, before any strike's effect occurs. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <37B798B1...@cc.helsinki.fi>, Tuomas Rinta <tuomas...@cc.helsinki.fi> writes >I think this is rather straightforward, but what about if the opposing >vampire strikes something that would cause damage to the vampire playing >Rotschreck? Would Rotschreck negate the strikes effect? Rotschreck sends you to torpor *before* strikes resolve. The strikes aren't exactly 'negated' - they just don't get a chance to happen. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England) Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net http://www.obeah.demon.co.uk