KMW spoiler schedual?

So like, I woke up at 9 EST, checked the list, say a new vampire, or something, added to the list. Then I checked again, just now (2.5 EST) and there's another card on the list. What the heck? So you're not just updating once a day, but several times a day? Anyone predict when that Protean card is getting degreyed and spoiled (if it hasn't yet, as of me last checking the site)? What's the KMW spoiler schedual?

"Screaming Vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1105646186....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > So like, I woke up at 9 EST, checked the list, say a new vampire, or > something, added to the list. Then I checked again, just now (2.5 EST) > and there's another card on the list. What the heck? So you're not just > updating once a day, but several times a day? One card per update. Several updates each day. > Anyone predict when that Protean card is getting degreyed and spoiled > (if it hasn't yet, as of me last checking the site)? > What's the KMW spoiler schedual? New card or rule/update every other day. 15 cards and 5 newnesses = 20 things = 40 days (or 39, if you're smart about it :-). Counting today, there are 39 days until the release day. The Preview has a little head start, though, so that it will finish before the pre-release weekend. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

> Anyone predict when that Protean card is getting degreyed and spoiled Not when, but what. Pretty easy, IMO, to make out the words "Dual Form" at the top of the card. And since that does require Protean in the RPG, could cost X blood, and I think has been mentioned in Lotus Noir, I would be quite surprised if it was NOT Dual Form. It's what Karsh did to make Jalan-Aajav. I hope it makes a vampire, instead of some Rutor's Hand effect. -- Brian Didn't playtest Most Wanted

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:34o2hgF...@individual.net... > "Screaming Vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1105646186....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... >> So like, I woke up at 9 EST, checked the list, say a new vampire, or >> something, added to the list. Then I checked again, just now (2.5 EST) >> and there's another card on the list. What the heck? So you're not just >> updating once a day, but several times a day? > > One card per update. Several updates each day. Oh, that's just hilarious! What's even funnier: someone noticed it and asked. :) :) :) Gawd, we're pathetic. LMAO in Arizona

> It's what Karsh did to make Jalan-Aajav. What book was that in? I don't recall any mention of that in any Masquerade sourcebook. There was plenty of speculation that Jalan-Aajav and Karsh might be the same person (disprooved IIRC) but that was about it. -- Colin "Eryx" Goodman Cambridge UK http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.html <firstco...@aol.com> wrote in message news:1105650979....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Well what the heck was spoiled in Lutos Noir (was it just the name then?)

Hey, man. I'm the first to ask stupid questions, and the first to give stupid strategy articles (my embarrassingly shameful dominate newsletter... what a blast that was!). Really though, I'm just embarrassed if an actual person updates the site, and not just a bot. (and if its a bot, if there's a way to access the information l33t hazor skillz-wis3. :P

> > It's what Karsh did to make Jalan-Aajav. > > What book was that in? I don't recall any mention of that in any Masquerade > sourcebook. There was plenty of speculation that Jalan-Aajav and Karsh might > be the same person (disprooved IIRC) but that was about it. It's something Fletcher told me. He always knows his roleplaying stuff, so assuming I heard him right and remember correctly, it's true. I'll ask him again though and get back to you. -- Brian

Yeah, I think it was just the name. And I think it was Lotus Noir, because they're the only place that seems to spoil ANYTHING besides WW themselves. I'm sure I heard something about Dual Form becoming a card before it was greyly previewed, because it was an effect I wanted to be a card (so I took note.) Could have been somewhere else, point of the post was "I bet it's gonna be Dual Form." -- Brian

"Screaming Vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Really though, I'm just embarrassed if an actual person updates the > site, and not just a bot. (and if its a bot, if there's a way to access > the information l33t hazor skillz-wis3. :P I update the site (got to have something to do in my spare time :-). [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Thanx. I would appericate it. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

Well, only a few hours left until we finaly find out what the hell is this Dual Form... Anyway, i believe that we are going to see yet another great protean card and please, you out there that think that protean does not need any new cards as it can do many different nice things with the existing cards, spare me this shit as i don't recall having heard lately of any protean deck winning a tournament. What i mean is that Protean is a great discipline, has many cards that do various cool stuff, that's why i believe that it was right no protean card to be released in Gehenna, but i will welcome Dual Form (i just hope that it meets my high expectations) and any other nice protean card in this set. As well as any nice quietus card, black sunrise was a nice start imo. By the way, i hope they did something to improve a little bit Setite combat, in order for a Setite bruise and bleed deck to be able to be effectively constructed, as up to now they have given setites a few combat options (Skin of the Adder, Typhonic Beast, tongue ot Serpent) which imo don't worth the trouble of building a setite B&B (and i am not talking about contructing one to win a tournament, but constructing a nice setite B&B deck to have fun playing it and maybe even win a tournament with some portion of luck and skill) About quietus needing a powerful combat card, i have spoken elsewhere in this group and i wouldn't like to repeat myself. About necromancy, i don't know... maybe they thought to include another nec card that gives +1 stealth, like they did with the great occlusion for chi, but maybe not... Personaly, i expect to see some nice nec cards doing weird things in this set. Daemonic Possession is good, Possession is awesome, e.t.c but i believe that there is space for one new really weird nec card, that will make us say "wow, this is weird"... about chimestry, i really can't predict what the sick, twisted mind of the developers have come up with... ;) About dai, i personaly love the baali and their evilness, so i hope to see a really evil card, one that i and my great beast will love playing... why not a nice obe card as well... Finaly, about Samedi, please don't release any more stuff for this stupid bloodline. Don't waste your time and our money on developing stuff for them. Admit that Samedi was a mistake, forget all about them and move on to the other bloodlines ;) George

On 14 Jan 2005 07:28:44 -0800, <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote: > Finaly, about Samedi, please don't release any more stuff for this > stupid (i.e. Great) bloodline. Don't waste your > time and our money on developing stuff for them. Admit that (the) Samedi > was (are) > a mistake (brilliant idea), forget all about > them (how fun they are) and move on to the other bloodlines ;) > You are right, the Samedi don't really need any help, they are good enough already. :) See (). With good play and the use of dominate they have a reasonable chance of winning small to medium size tournaments. The only thing they do need is a card that has an intersting use at inferior thanatosis, that way Unre, Jack Dawson, and Smallpox will have something fun to do with their currently almost wasted point. Colin Strauss Riggs

i have an idea of such a card, what about this ? "The meaning of playing Samedi" action, costs 5 pool. +3 stealth action, requires a ready Samedi inf thanatosis: Burn all the cards you own and all your pool but one, remove the Samedi deck from the table, get another one (a real deck, not a Samedi one) from your bag, place it on the table, draw a new hand, draw 4 crypt cards and place them face down in your uncontrolled region, gain 19 pool and now you are ready to start playing a real deck. If you influence out a Samedi, after playing this card, then you are ousted immediately. sup thanatosis: as above, but gain 8 extra transfers in your next influence phase. or maybe a card like the following: "Aknowledgment of Samedi Power" action, costs 5 pool requires a ready Samedi +1 stealth action, not usable if you have a vampire in torpor. Burn all Samedi in play, each methuselah who used to control a Samedi has effectively withdrawn, getting 1 vp. reminder text: Samedi suck! George

geor...@for.auth.gr wrote: > i have an idea of such a card, what about this ? > > "The meaning of playing Samedi" > > action, costs 5 pool. > > +3 stealth action, requires a ready Samedi > > inf thanatosis: Burn all the cards you own and all your pool but one, > remove the > Samedi deck from the table, get another one (a real deck, not a Samedi > one) from > your bag, place it on the table, draw a new hand, draw 4 crypt cards > and place them > face down in your uncontrolled region, gain 19 pool that was a typing error, the correct is "gain 29 pool" :) George

[ quoted text not captured ] These are funny, but I thought you were further penalizing the Samedi player, which was a good touch. Actually, that would be a very broken card. You could play one deck, until you were down to 6 pool, have Lithrac take the action, and start over. Your analysis of the Samedi is somewhat incorrect, but you are welcome to it. Cheers, Colin Strauss Riggs

Colin Riggs wrote: > ...the Samedi don't really need any help, they are good enough > already. .... The only > thing they do need is a card that has an intersting use at inferior > thanatosis, that way Unre, Jack Dawson, and Smallpox will have something > fun to do with their currently almost wasted point. What they need is a pot THN vampire. Print me a 4-cap with for pot THN and you will hear much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

<geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message news:1105716524.4...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > Finaly, about Samedi, please don't release any more stuff for this > stupid bloodline. Don't waste your time and our money on developing > stuff for them. Admit that Samedi was a mistake, forget all about > them and move on to the other bloodlines ;) I don't agree at all. I do think that, like the Baali, the Samedi need help. But they have enough interesting cards that if they got some significant augmentation, one could have some real fun with them. Fred

well, mostly i am kidding... but i indeed believe that this card is not broken. (though obviously i am not serious about releasing such a card) i'll just add to the text that "a requirement to play this card is to have only influenced out Samedi so far in the game"... So, by the time you'll be left with just 6 pool, you won't have succeeded in doing much, as you would have been playing with Samedi :P My opinion about the Samedi is that they are underpowered and not that much fun to play with... What could be worst than that ? George

geo...@for.auth.gr wrote: > My opinion about the Samedi is that they are underpowered and not that > much > fun to play with... What could be worst than that ? Clans that are overpowered and not that much fun to play with? At least with Samedi the rest of the table gets a good laugh while you try and do something. crispy

I vaguely remember it being mentioned in the original (1st edition) VTM Player's Guide, but I could be wrong - I lost the book somewhen over the years. Regards, Patrick Columbus, OH

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 geo...@for.auth.gr wrote: | Well, only a few hours left until we finaly find out what the hell is | this Dual Form... | | Anyway, i believe that we are going to see yet another great protean | card and | please, you out there that think that protean does not need any new | cards | as it can do many different nice things with the existing cards, spare | me this | shit as i don't recall having heard lately of any protean deck winning | a tournament. Why do you believe that a PRO-only deck needs to be able to win using only PRO cards? This game has many disciplines; should each of them be able to win on their own? Of course not -- next! Many, many winning decks use Protean in complement with another discipline. #1 on that list is the PRO/DOM stealth/bleed deck. So much for thinking Protean needed any help. Which reminds me, the old weenie PRO Computer Hack decks aren't hurting all THAT much, are they? | By the way, i hope they did something to improve a little bit Setite | combat, in order for a | Setite bruise and bleed deck to be able to be effectively constructed, Have you ever tried to construct one? Have you tried to do it the right way? | as up to now they | have given setites a few combat options (Skin of the Adder, Typhonic | Beast, tongue ot | Serpent) which imo don't worth the trouble of building a setite B&B | (and i am not talking | about contructing one to win a tournament, but constructing a nice | setite B&B deck to | have fun playing it and maybe even win a tournament with some portion | of luck and skill) Have you forgotten Mark of Damnation, which is an excellent card to not only discourage your prey from blocking, but encourage him to waste actions removing it that are NOT bleeding his prey for 6. If he chooses not to remove it, that is just fine. A few Haven Uncovered splashed in your deck will make him think twice about this course of action; your grandprey might even Rush him for you, if he's a stealthy bleeder himself. | Finaly, about Samedi, please don't release any more stuff for this | stupid bloodline. Don't waste your | time and our money on developing stuff for them. Admit that Samedi was | a mistake, forget all about | them and move on to the other bloodlines ;) Others have pointed out your foolishness elsewhere. However, the inherent benchmark of any clan with OBF is: Can it do stealth/bleed? For today's lesson, I suggest attempting to build a stealth/bleed deck with the Samedi. Focus on OBF/FOR, and splash THN in as necessary (Hag's Wrinkles, etc) or appropriate. Dust to Dust is superb combat defense for a single card; go to long, dodge, and press to end. That's a lot of cards someone has to have to beat you, and since you have OBF, you should be considering Swallowed by the Night to help you stay long and avoid the Grapple. You will require defense. Your only real option is a few Dominate skill cards, that DOM/FOR equipment whose name escapes me, and plenty of Deflection -- or backfilling with some Ventrue weenies and plenty of Deflection. Votes are tricky for you, but they're tricky for many decks; don't feel too alone. Once you are done, you will discover that, in fact, the Samedi _can_ do some pretty solid stealth/bleed, and therefore cannot be considered either a "mistake", or a poor clan. Just because you're not willing to play them in a winning manner doesn't mean they suck. This concludes today's lesson. Thank you. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFB6FUHtQZlu3o7QpERAr1DAKCaek01h8q60XyGKZFX35fI90qW8QCgoXNl xzfVahAWM/aiboUPHGOyNgY= =dbZl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

I think he was trying to say that Thanatosis was weak, and as a result, Samedhi seemed weak. But what do you bleed with in an obf/for SB deck? Force of Will? Computer hack with laptops and retainers? Spying missions? All seems to work, but it just seems there are easier ways to do stealth bleed (though I guess the combat defense for provides is valuable). You're Mr. Super Negative aren't you? Are you a teacher IRL?

I used to play a deck that tried to capitalize on the potential of Hidden Lurker by using (module 1) Malks or (module 2) Ventrue to bleed or perform annoying actions to block. Just a few words on the weakness of the Samedi: Hidden Lurker, Withering, Compress, then either amaranth, Sacrificial lamb or flat out diablerie... (See tooled up lithrac and his two extra votes...) XD N

1st. never meant to talk about protean only decks, i just said that i will always welcome new protean cards and i don't share the opinion of some people who insist that protean should not get new cards as it can do many things. 2nd. well, a setite B&B will never manage to do enough bruising, it needs some extra cards, don't you agree ? it is way better to use setites with thaumaturgy to do the bruising than just to rely on serpentis and its pityful combat options. in each case, a new serpentis combat card could help. 3rd. Yeah, mark of damnation can help, but not more than Skin of Adder and typhonic beast help. 4th. i agree that pretty much any deck can do something... hell, i could influence out smudge, give him the seal of Veddartha (the dom/for thingie you couldn't remember its name) and bleed with daring the dawn after 3 turns, so what ? is this worthdoing ? no... imo Samedi decks don't worth the time that is required for their construction... Anyway, i was just kidding about the Samedi, i don't hate them or anything... but they are truly pathetic, compress, at thanatosis, is not even a hand strike... So, i grapple you and kiss my ass... This is just an example, the big problem with them, imo, is that they don't offer you much pleasure playing them and they don't have anything really special, except withering, that is not so playable. Rigor Mortis is also cool, but that is just not enough... George

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Screaming Vermillian wrote: | I think he was trying to say that Thanatosis was weak, and as a result, | Samedhi seemed weak. THN isn't weak, either; it's just difficult to use effectively. Most people look at it, see a lot of combat cards, and think "hammer". Then they go out whacking nails with THN, and realize that THN isn't a hammer, it's an awl. No wonder the darn nails won't go in. Then they blame the tool, not the user. People are funny. | But what do you bleed with in an obf/for SB deck? Force of Will? | Computer hack with laptops and retainers? Spying missions? All seems to All of the above. The Samedi have OBF/FOR; they can take multiple actions at stealth per turn. Three of them are inherent +bleeders, adding even MORE help to the pile. You only need to get up to +2 bleed on a vampire before it starts to hurt; why do you think Pulse of the Canaille gets people Rushed so much? I would use all the retainers, laptops, Computer Hacks, and Spying Mission (although I would typically use Spying Mission to protect against my big-ass bleeds getting bounced too often). That should be more than enough to let me bleed for 3-4 with each vampire consistently, and few decks can stand up to that for long. I would include a few Force of Will for the surprise oust; people forget that unlike Freak Drive, Force of Will doesn't have to be played immediately once you're tapped. You can save it for the last action of the turn. My own weakness is a slowish start and no inherent Deflection, but the Ventrue weenies are probably a good call here, honestly. Saves on skill cards, gives me spare actions if I need (but with OBF/FOR, I have lots of actions available). | work, but it just seems there are easier ways to do stealth bleed | (though I guess the combat defense for provides is valuable). And the combat defense THN provides is even more valuable. If you are REALLY worried, include 2x Ashes to Ashes (I usually do), and then just let that evil Donal O'Connor punch you for 6 agg from his 2nd Tradition, instead of sneaking past him. Play Ashes, ignore it all, go to torpor, untap, and rescue yourself with your extra 2 blood -- and fartknocker stays tapped and just wasted a ton of his beating-cards for nothing. ...Be sure to play the stealth on the rescue though. =) The Samedi are suspiciously durable in combat. | You're Mr. Super Negative aren't you? Are you a teacher IRL? What was negative about this? I pointed out that a clan which is commonly perceived as sucky... is actually much better than people realize. Perhaps you didn't approve of my tone. If that's it, just spare us all; I'm sure nobody wants to hear a rehash of "Derek said a nanny boo-boo" again. With regard to the "teacher" thing; what's the correlation between negativity and teaching? This should be good =) - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFB6F8ItQZlu3o7QpERAu8yAJsEcv7xoi8oyw0rbVKL+iEp6bQzkgCfb+/Q u+rg/U5tDS3LzVT4+DtjyME= =0meL -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

> However, the inherent benchmark of any clan with OBF is: > Can it do stealth/bleed? > > For today's lesson, I suggest attempting to build a stealth/bleed deck > with the Samedi. Focus on OBF/FOR, and splash THN in as necessary > (Hag's Wrinkles, etc) or appropriate. Dust to Dust is superb combat > defense for a single card; go to long, dodge, and press to end. That's > a lot of cards someone has to have to beat you, and since you have OBF, > you should be considering Swallowed by the Night to help you stay long > and avoid the Grapple. > Getting sneak-bled for 5 by a Samedi on his third action that turn was not a fun experience, even though I had an Archon Investigation in my hand.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 geo...@for.auth.gr wrote: | 1st. never meant to talk about protean only decks, i just said that i But that's what you said. "spare me this shit as i don't recall having heard lately of any protean deck winning a tournament." Did you actually mean "protean + another discipline"? In which case, I refer you to the PRO/DOM decks previously mentioned. | will | always welcome new protean cards and i don't share the opinion | of some people who insist that protean should not get new cards | as it can do many things. All disciplines should keep getting new cards. New is good. | 2nd. well, a setite B&B will never manage to do enough bruising, it | needs | some extra cards, don't you agree ? it is way better to use setites I do not agree. They are better at this than you think. See my previous post. | with | thaumaturgy to do the bruising than just to rely on serpentis and its | pityful | combat options. in each case, a new serpentis combat card could help. But it is not necessary. | 3rd. Yeah, mark of damnation can help, but not more than Skin of Adder | and typhonic beast help. Have you considered combining them? Hesha puts Mark of Damnation on your prey's untapped vampire, Ezekiel bleeds with Legal Manipulations. Does he block? Skin of the Adder *or* Typhonic Beast + Immortal Grapple; hand strike for 4, prevent 1. Add some flavor with a few Pushing the Limit and Boxed In (you might want to stop at 1 sometimes). Sure, you get Deflected occasionally, but your bleed is at 0 stealth; your grandprey can catch these with minimal effort. And your prey STILL has to consider whether to leave the Mark on his minion, or to waste that minion's action removing it. | 4th. i agree that pretty much any deck can do something... | | so what ? is this worthdoing ? no... imo Samedi decks don't worth the | time that is required | for their construction... You have not bothered to try; thus, your opinion is meaningless. | Anyway, i was just kidding about the Samedi, i don't hate them or | anything... but they are truly | pathetic, compress, at thanatosis, is not even a hand strike... I refer you to my previous post. Your definition of "pathetic" is clearly "They don't do what I want them to, so they suck". Instead of blaming the hammer because it will not turn a screw, I suggest learning how to obtain a screwdriver. | This is just an example, the big problem with them, imo, is that they | don't offer you much | pleasure playing them and they don't have anything really special, Dust to Dust, Ashes to Ashes, Hag's Wrinkles, Withering (even putting it on a blocking minion ruins its next turn), the specials on the vampires,... take your pick. There are more. Someone else has mentioned a strategy I have used in the past; Hidden Lurker/Withering from George Frederick to back up Ventrue bleeding for lots. Block the Ventrue, it plays Majesty -- George jumps in and sticks 'em. Perhaps they only offer YOU no pleasure, because you insist on using them as a hammer. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFB6GbvtQZlu3o7QpERAilmAJwO6tzav/ER02lMZFoewagu8u7iywCfYgno f8+ZaWDCKv2HvzspfQzhows= =SS/i -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 [ quoted text not captured ] Yep. That's about how the thing runs, too; and AI is a real crimp in its style. But, the good news is, they come with Necromancy, so you can always Possess your used guys back into play if you're desperate. =) (Not recommended to put more than 2x Possession in the deck since you need the Baron or skill cards to do it -- but remember you can also use it to fetch Force of Will guys after they run out of blood. Oh, there's also the Sargon Fragment as a way to get NEC.) - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFB6GeOtQZlu3o7QpERAuf0AJ473UwQTga5MX5Bh2xqRlYlUc9n5gCguUH0 +b4vskgnJPUcqqkcNphZB8M= =9uNY -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

so what ? is this worthdoing ? no... imo Samedi decks don't worth the | time that is required | for their construction ... You have not bothered to try; thus, your opinion is meaningless Well, i did try once, many years ago and never tried again... I think i'll stick to making a ton of various Great Beasts decks and leave Samedi constructing to other fellows... maybe that's just me... but my time, as everyone's else time, is limited and thus i prefer constructing various other decks that trying hard to make Samedi work... if you really understand what i am saying... i am not complaining that samedi is underpowered and should get an improvement... i am just saying that after that Baali starter, i'd really like to see some support for other bloodlines like !Salubri, Salubri, even True Brujah than to waste (imo) effort in improving poor Samedi... That's my personal opinion... George

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 geo...@for.auth.gr wrote: | so what ? is this worthdoing ? no... imo Samedi decks don't worth the | | time that is required | | for their construction | | You have not bothered to try; thus, your opinion is meaningless | | Well, i did try once, many years ago and never tried again... I repeat, you haven't bothered to try. This means your opinion is meaningless. Try, or quit bitching. | if you really understand what i am saying... i am not complaining that | samedi is underpowered and should get an improvement... i am just | saying that after that Baali starter, i'd really like to see some | support | for other bloodlines like !Salubri, Salubri, even True Brujah than to | waste (imo) | effort in improving poor Samedi... That's my personal opinion... But your opinion is meaningless, because the premise you are founding it on has no basis. You have not bothered to try to make them work. You call it "waste", but have no clue what you're talking about. What you REALLY want is just some personal attention; you want support for your own individual tastes, without any consideration for the game as a whole or what others may prefer. You want it to be easy for you. Not everything in this world will be easy. Grow up. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFB6TjNtQZlu3o7QpERAj8hAJ0ZC5ne37Lowc0HMsRyuoINnj+VewCgqlsD FQ3r/bld/8J5hAkmccUf5YU= =7Xaq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Yeah, that's all fun and good. I built it once, and didn't like how it flowed. I've always had trouble using HL, and I've never really been very good at combat deck that are combo card intensive though...

Derek Ray wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Screaming Vermillian wrote: > | I think he was trying to say that Thanatosis was weak, and as a result, > | Samedhi seemed weak. > > THN isn't weak, either; it's just difficult to use effectively. ah, but what about thn. (saying nothing at all about how people typically don't like difficult because there seems to be funky combat support without a traditionally offensive combat oriented discipline hanging around in their spread). > All of the above. The Samedi have OBF/FOR; they can take multiple > actions at stealth per turn. Three of them are inherent +bleeders, > adding even MORE help to the pile. Poop. I forgot about those + bleeders. Those are some rather large caps though (not REALLY a problem...). > You only need to get up to +2 bleed on a vampire before it starts to > hurt; why do you think Pulse of the Canaille gets people Rushed so much? Cause they just burned two blood for a permanent action, and they are weak? No? > My own weakness is a slowish start and no inherent Deflection, but the > Ventrue weenies are probably a good call here, honestly. Saves on skill > cards, gives me spare actions if I need (but with OBF/FOR, I have lots > of actions available). I like how you started to narrate for the deck concept in first person. :) > | work, but it just seems there are easier ways to do stealth bleed > | (though I guess the combat defense for provides is valuable). > > And the combat defense THN provides is even more valuable. THN, not thn, which I think he was orginally complaining about (maybe not, who knows!). > The Samedi are suspiciously durable in combat. Thanks to for and THN, and perhaps disguising in guns... > | You're Mr. Super Negative aren't you? Are you a teacher IRL? > > What was negative about this? I pointed out that a clan which is > commonly perceived as sucky... is actually much better than people realize. > > Perhaps you didn't approve of my tone. If that's it, just spare us all; > I'm sure nobody wants to hear a rehash of "Derek said a nanny boo-boo" > again. Well. You just DID say "nanny boo-boo". Aw shit. I just did too... > With regard to the "teacher" thing; what's the correlation between > negativity and teaching? This should be good =) A. I've been subbing and tutoring lately, and its sucked the life out of me! B. You seemed very Holier than thou in your response to George (yes, tone, but also WHAT you've said (over simplification, neglect to even support his argument for one second by considering that thn is weak (not THN))).

Derek Ray wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > geo...@for.auth.gr wrote: > | so what ? is this worthdoing ? no... imo Samedi decks don't worth the > | | time that is required > | | for their construction > | > | You have not bothered to try; thus, your opinion is meaningless > | > | Well, i did try once, many years ago and never tried again... > > I repeat, you haven't bothered to try. > > This means your opinion is meaningless. Try, or quit bitching. (well if you hadn't bothered misreading it, he DID try, once, many years ago (probably around the same time that we all tried something with the clan that we all seem to think isn't so hot (just check tournament records))) > But your opinion is meaningless, because the premise you are founding it > on has no basis. You have not bothered to try to make them work. You > call it "waste", but have no clue what you're talking about. > > What you REALLY want is just some personal attention; you want support > for your own individual tastes, without any consideration for the game > as a whole or what others may prefer. You want it to be easy for you. > Not everything in this world will be easy. Grow up. I love how quickly you pass people off as worthless and degrade them. As a fellow flame baiter, I applaud you! ~SV

Screaming Vermillian wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] No, no, really--if you quote the stuff you are responding to, it makes following your discussion *much* easier to read and understand. Just a small quote is all you need. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "How does this end?" "In fire." Emperor Turhan and Kosh

>You are right, the Samedi don't really need any help, they are good enough >already. :) See (). With good play and the use of dominate they have a >reasonable chance of winning small to medium size tournaments. The only >thing they do need is a card that has an intersting use at inferior >thanatosis, that way Unre, Jack Dawson, and Smallpox will have something >fun to do with their currently almost wasted point. Unre? Anyway, I used to clamor for a Thanatosis intercept card. Divine Sign lessens the need for that. A prison card would make some sense, but the good ones are so unpleasant. Vote push would be highly amusing. Plus bleed would be good but not terribly interesting. ... something interactive and nonsucky - maybe a blood denial card along the lines of Blood Clots. Still, an intercept card wouldn't be bad.

>if you really understand what i am saying... i am not complaining that >samedi is underpowered and should get an improvement... i am just >saying that after that Baali starter, i'd really like to see some >support >for other bloodlines like !Salubri, Salubri, even True Brujah than to >waste (imo) >effort in improving poor Samedi... That's my personal opinion... >George Hard to understand what you are saying because it could be interpreted that you want to help the weakest clans (though why Salubri need help is unclear) and Samedi don't qualify. Except, you then call them "poor Samedi" as if they needed help. My opinion is that the ideal is for every clan to be equally desirable to play and equally powerful. The two correlate. However, this is going to be a pain to achieve when there's 33 clans in the game. The next closest would be to have the power and desirability of clans rotate in such a way that each clan has its night. Either way, I could see giving every bloodline something. Since we're seeing group 4 bloodlines, though, maybe it isn't as clear as it once was what those somethings should be.

On 16 Jan 2005 01:56:09 GMT, cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) scrawled: >Anyway, I used to clamor for a Thanatosis intercept card. Divine Sign lessens >the need for that. A prison card would make some sense, but the good ones are what's a 'prison card'? salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

Peter D Bakija wrote: > Screaming Vermillian wrote: > > > Yeah, that's all fun and good. I built it once, and didn't like how it > > flowed. I've always had trouble using HL, and I've never really been > > very good at combat deck that are combo card intensive though... > > No, no, really--if you quote the stuff you are responding to, it makes > following your discussion *much* easier to read and understand. Just a small > quote is all you need. Using google beta that's another click you have to do to pull up the reply with quoted text. On a dial up connection, that's a pain in the butt sometimes. And besides, that's another click man. I need to reply NOW. And can't you read your newsgroup messages in a tree format (so you can see the post I'm replying to, and then MY post?) (only familiar with google's message board)

Screaming Vermillian wrote: > Using google beta that's another click you have to do to pull up the > reply with quoted text. On a dial up connection, that's a pain in the > butt sometimes. And besides, that's another click man. I need to reply > NOW. > > And can't you read your newsgroup messages in a tree format (so you can > see the post I'm replying to, and then MY post?) (only familiar with > google's message board) One can, but it's more than just one click to do so. If someone's point isn't worth enough to them to quote or paraphrase sufficient context, then it usually isn't worth reading to the intended audience, so why would the reader bother with the extra clicks to find out for sure? :-) (I read in a tree format, but the tree only shows articles that were unread at the start of the session.) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

>>Anyway, I used to clamor for a Thanatosis intercept card. Divine Sign >lessens >>the need for that. A prison card would make some sense, but the good ones >are > >what's a 'prison card'? Sensory Deprivation, Riddle Phantastique are good examples. Lunatic Eruption, XTC Laced Blood would be lesser examples. Gets hard to distinguish from blood denial when you get into The Haunting et al. Essentially, cards that lockdown a player's ability to play the game. First Tradition is possibly less obvious than the minionscrew but has that effect as well. When SW came out, it seemed clear that an alternate strategy to !Malk stealth bleed was intended in the form of !Malk prison with the likes of The Haunting, Total Insanity, Lunatic Eruption, and the as yet unreprinted Derange (may be other cards as well). Not to reopen the "!Malks can't do anything but stealth bleed", it didn't seem as productive as just bleeding at stealth and, like, putting people out of their misery quickly rather than tediously. Prison strategies are: not as good in multiplayer because you have a much harder time locking down more than one player; obnoxious. While Samedi can easily get the hypothetical prison action through, if there was a way to get rid of the irritant (take Lunatic Eruption as an example), they'd have a hard time defending it. That limits the power. What could make the game more interesting is the interaction involved in trying to defend something. Sure, it's not the most difficult thing in the world to have an interactive Samedi deck. Tournament winning Samedi with Shamblers would be one way. For not as good decks, Samedi with Divine Sign or Samedi rush would qualify. But, because of the not easy intercept and the easy stealth and that you can just bleed with Samedi and oust people, it's easy to end up with a highly noninteractive deck whatever the intent was. So, I'm trying to think of giving them something that involves more interaction without going down the boring "here's better combat" path. Thanatosis intercept was/is a way to achieve that but isn't that interesting.

On 16 Jan 2005 07:27:07 GMT, cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) scrawled: >>>Anyway, I used to clamor for a Thanatosis intercept card. Divine Sign >>lessens >>>the need for that. A prison card would make some sense, but the good ones >>are >> >>what's a 'prison card'? > >Sensory Deprivation, Riddle Phantastique are good examples. Lunatic Eruption, >XTC Laced Blood would be lesser examples. Gets hard to distinguish from blood >denial when you get into The Haunting et al. Essentially, cards that lockdown >a player's ability to play the game. First Tradition is possibly less obvious >than the minionscrew but has that effect as well. ah, i see now. i thought maybe there was some THN stuff from the rpg that you were thinking they could convert in, but that you thought those things, whatever it was i was imagining, might be too powerful. i get it now, though. :) >When SW came out, it seemed clear that an alternate strategy to !Malk stealth >bleed was intended in the form of !Malk prison with the likes of The Haunting, >Total Insanity, Lunatic Eruption, and the as yet unreprinted Derange (may be >other cards as well). Not to reopen the "!Malks can't do anything but stealth umm, just FYI: Derange [Sabbat:R, CE:R] now i have the urge to build a Samedi Divine Sign deck! compress is just that bit better when you know what the opposing minion's strike is going to be. add Chiram's Hold, and it's almost a good combat package. almost. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 15 Jan 2005 08:22:43 -0800, Screaming Vermillian <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Derek Ray wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> geo...@for.auth.gr wrote: >> | so what ? is this worthdoing ? no... imo Samedi decks don't worth > the >> | | time that is required >> | | for their construction >> | >> | You have not bothered to try; thus, your opinion is meaningless >> | >> | Well, i did try once, many years ago and never tried again... >> >> I repeat, you haven't bothered to try. >> >> This means your opinion is meaningless. Try, or quit bitching. > > (well if you hadn't bothered misreading it, he DID try, once, many > years ago (probably around the same time that we all tried something > with the clan that we all seem to think isn't so hot (just check > tournament records))) Yeah, but he did not *bother* to try. That is the key - you need to bother people in order to have your word count. -- Bye, Daneel

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Screaming Vermillian wrote: | Derek Ray wrote: | |>THN isn't weak, either; it's just difficult to use effectively. | | ah, but what about thn. (saying nothing at all about how people | typically don't like difficult because there seems to be funky combat Dust to Dust is still a dodge with a press. Ashes to Ashes is everything but the I-Gain-Two-Blood. Hag's Wrinkles is still the untap-if-succesful. Compress is one less agg. Withering is a huge difference, but that just means "use guys with THN if you're going to use Withering". Rigor Mortis still gives you the "no-blur, i get a press". Inferior disciplines are typically... well... inferior. That's sort of why it's called that, you know? As far as people not liking difficult; that's OK, that's their problem if they need to have it all served up easy, soft, and mushy like baby food. They don't want to put forth effort, they don't have to... but I don't have to respect them for that, and I don't. |>All of the above. The Samedi have OBF/FOR; they can take multiple |>actions at stealth per turn. Three of them are inherent +bleeders, |>adding even MORE help to the pile. | | Poop. I forgot about those + bleeders. Those are some rather large caps | though (not REALLY a problem...). See previous message about "nobody said it would be easy". |>You only need to get up to +2 bleed on a vampire before it starts to |>hurt; why do you think Pulse of the Canaille gets people Rushed so | much? | | Cause they just burned two blood for a permanent action, and they are | weak? No? No. It's because they are now bleeding for _at least_ 3 on every action, possibly more, with a single minion. That tends to add up over only a few turns (especially with everyone else bleeding), so you need to deal with the threat. Minions in torpor don't bleed, and empty minions typically hunt. |>My own weakness is a slowish start and no inherent Deflection, but | the |>Ventrue weenies are probably a good call here, honestly. Saves on | skill |>cards, gives me spare actions if I need (but with OBF/FOR, I have | lots |>of actions available). | | I like how you started to narrate for the deck concept in first person. Yeah, maybe it means I've tried it myself and know what I'm talking about, huh? Instead of our friend Georgie who's never bothered to put forth the effort to do the same himself. |>| work, but it just seems there are easier ways to do stealth bleed |>| (though I guess the combat defense for provides is valuable). |> |>And the combat defense THN provides is even more valuable. | | THN, not thn, which I think he was orginally complaining about (maybe | not, who knows!). Doesn't matter, all three +bleeders have THN. He was originally not specifying THN or thn, he was bitching about the Samedi. Don't lose sight of the point. |>With regard to the "teacher" thing; what's the correlation between |>negativity and teaching? This should be good =) | | A. I've been subbing and tutoring lately, and its sucked the life out | of me! This doesn't answer the question. Why should there be a correlation between negativity and teaching? Are you saying you've become negative since you've been teaching people? If so, why is that? | B. You seemed very Holier than thou in your response to George (yes, | tone, but also WHAT you've said (over simplification, neglect to even | support his argument for one second by considering that thn is weak | (not THN))). First, it's his job to support his argument, not mine. Second, he said the Samedi suck, not "inferior Thanatosis"; don't put words in his mouth. Third, this is also evading the question of what the correlation is between negativity and teaching. Don't hurt yourself staying on topic, now. I realize it's hard for you. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFB6vsVtQZlu3o7QpERAur8AJ4thBAzfS6PV6uyfi0Jd4oQ29r7wACg49kk CK1yU0TKI0Hs6qZ7VsAiDH0= =3Oja -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Screaming Vermillian wrote: | Derek Ray wrote: | |>| You have not bothered to try; thus, your opinion is meaningless | |>| Well, i did try once, many years ago and never tried again... |> |>I repeat, you haven't bothered to try. |> |>This means your opinion is meaningless. Try, or quit bitching. | | (well if you hadn't bothered misreading it, he DID try, once, many | years ago (probably around the same time that we all tried something | with the clan that we all seem to think isn't so hot (just check | tournament records))) No, I didn't misread it. One deck, built and played once, is not "trying". It's making a halfhearted effort and then throwing your hands up in despair, crying that the sky is falling. Would you accept such an effort from one of your students? Would you accept the same excuse that 'I tried it once and it didn't work, so it must suck'? Of course not. | I love how quickly you pass people off as worthless and degrade them. False accusation. Please reread my previous messages and try again. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFB6vu0tQZlu3o7QpERAi40AJ4/tq9fttB9W8rRRQmEjjJCw2ykKACgoDwz km5AtSJog4SDx490xhzorsM= =IiAL -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[ quoted text not captured ] Fine. Update my post to read "It is my belief that you pass people off as worthless and degrade them as such quickly", because it is. ANd I like how often it SEEMS you say "you're wrong, but instead of explaining why you are wrong, I'll have you reread my post, and claim that the facts for your wrongness are there". Even if the wrongness isn't proven there, it still makes you look as if you'd won the argument to everyone else reading, who is not directly involved (few), because they're probably too lazy to read your previous post for the wrongness proof (or lack there of). Anyhow. SOrry. I'm just a bit moody and your (seemingly) rude behavior rubbed me the wrong way. I would like to formally apologize for getting my face in your buisiness. Rock on,

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Screaming Vermillian wrote: | Derek Ray wrote: | |>False accusation. Please reread my previous messages and try again. | | Fine. Update my post to read "It is my belief that you pass people off | as worthless and degrade them as such quickly", because it is. Jolly. Believe whatever you like. | ANd I like how often it SEEMS you say "you're wrong, but instead of | explaining why you are wrong, I'll have you reread my post, and claim | that the facts for your wrongness are there". Even if the wrongness The facts are, in fact, there. If you bothered to look. I have learned that wasting my time repeatedly saying "No, I said _X_, not _Y_" is just not worth the effort. Either one is sufficiently literate to go back and read what I said, or one is not. Those who are unwilling or incapable of doing so are not going to read the second explanation either, and as such are not worth the time it takes to craft one. | isn't proven there, it still makes you look as if you'd won the | argument to everyone else reading, who is not directly involved (few), | because they're probably too lazy to read your previous post for the | wrongness proof (or lack there of). Wow, that's a complicated set of motives. I refer you to the popular concept of Occam's Razor and then suggest you reread my above paragraph, keeping that concept in mind. Perhaps it seems I do this a lot. From my point of view, it seems people don't read what's written on their screen a lot. Perhaps that makes me seem rude; but frankly, I'd just like to see people try to stand on their own two feet for a change and think. If that means that some people think I'm rude, well, I'll survive somehow. - -- Derek insert clever quotation here -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFB61J0tQZlu3o7QpERAgm7AJ49pQoMNmxMM+kC2vEQhLq+Hr7GPwCeL3fh nQteDZF1V9DOD1BKpQaZxGg= =Omca -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

In message <g4aku0pa0ns8i5kh2...@4ax.com>, salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> writes: >now i have the urge to build a Samedi Divine Sign deck! compress is >just that bit better when you know what the opposing minion's strike >is going to be. add Chiram's Hold, and it's almost a good combat >package. almost. Between Divine Sign and Spectral Divination, there's some good opportunities there - especially the stealth flexibility, IMO. Up to +3 intercept in a reasonably reliable fashion isn't to be sniffed at. Oh, yeah, and Eyes of the Dead. Sadly, there's only one source of NEC for the Samedi, though it's easy enough to get hold of - discipline cards (all but Reg have inferior), or the Sargon Fragment. The latter is a good choice anyway. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though! EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.

> > > It's what Karsh did to make Jalan-Aajav. > > > > What book was that in? I don't recall any mention of that in any > Masquerade > > sourcebook. There was plenty of speculation that Jalan-Aajav and > Karsh might > > be the same person (disprooved IIRC) but that was about it. > > It's something Fletcher told me. He always knows his roleplaying > stuff, so assuming I heard him right and remember correctly, it's true. > I'll ask him again though and get back to you. OK, Fletcher told me he doesn't think it's in any particular sourcebook, but that it was "pretty confirmed" by the people he was talking to, roleplayers and online. I'm not explaining this well, I know, but he seemed like he had a reason to believe it. Take that for what it's worth. Also, in an earlier post, Damnans wrote: "Both Jalan and Karsh are 5th generation vampires, which limits their traits to 8. The level of Protean they need to do what you state is 9 (Dual Form)." Since one effect of the discipline is to raise each generated vampires' generation by one, this would make perfect sense. That's all I got. -- Brian