Another Giotto Deck

Hi Guys, Another deck, based on daring the dawn, this time with Concordance... I think it could use more prevention, and tel-misdirection maybe....what to do? Deck Name: Giotto and friends Created By: wk Description: Concordance + daring_the_dawn, renewed vigor to fill up. Clan imp to avoid scarce-cost and possible sanguine instruction. pool gain is doll (with Blanche) and minion_tap + renewed_vigor. No or very little blocking, dies to stealth-bleed, dies to rush Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 25, Max: 28, Avg: 6.75) ---------------------------------------------- 6 Giotto Verducci DAI for OBF pot pre 7, Baali (maybe 5?) 3 Matthias AUS FOR nec OBE 7, Salubri (could add one for telmisdirect) 3 Blanche Hill aus FOR OBE 6, Salubri Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (11 cards) 5 Blood Doll 1 Dreams of the Sphinx 1 Giant's Blood 4 Minion Tap Action (29 cards) 5 Clan Impersonation (Maybe just pay for the Scarce-cost?) 7 Concordance (too many? I really want them..) 4 Condemnation: Doomed (too many?) 3 Contagion (mostly fun, too many?) 7 Renewed Vigor 3 Sanguine Instruction Action Modifier (29 cards) 6 Cloak the Gathering 10 Daring the Dawn 4 Freak Drive 2 Lost in Crowds 3 Psychomachia (out probably...) 4 Repulsion (also playable by Giotto) Combat (8 cards) 3 Conflagration (just for fun and surprise) 5 Skin of Steel Retainer (3 cards) 3 D'habi Revenant (not unique) Combo (10 cards) 10 Sense the Sin (versatile) Ok, let me know what you think, Wouter

wouter...@yahoo.com (Wouter Kuyper) wrote in message news:<155a2de5.02061...@posting.google.com>... > Hi Guys, > > Another deck, based on daring the dawn, this time with Concordance... > I think it could use more prevention, and tel-misdirection maybe....what to do? > > > Deck Name: Giotto and friends > Created By: wk > Description: Concordance + daring_the_dawn, renewed vigor to fill up. > Clan imp to avoid scarce-cost and possible sanguine instruction. > pool gain is doll (with Blanche) and minion_tap + renewed_vigor. > No or very little blocking, dies to stealth-bleed, dies to rush > > Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 25, Max: 28, Avg: 6.75) > ---------------------------------------------- > 6 Giotto Verducci DAI for OBF pot pre 7, Baali (maybe 5?) > 3 Matthias AUS FOR nec OBE 7, Salubri (could add one for telmisdirect) I would say ditch Matthias. Your not using AUS or nec, and you said you don't block much. Another way of doing this deck entirely would be to scrap the Salubri and go with Giotto, Suhailah, and 5th Tradition. They have great discipline overlap (no more Repulsion--they both have OBF!), and once Giotto dons his DAI Concordance, Suhailah can use others you have sitting in your hand if you have massive intra-minion-phase hand jam (IMPHJ). > 3 Blanche Hill aus FOR OBE 6, Salubri > > Library: (90 cards) > ------------------- > Master (11 cards) > 5 Blood Doll > 1 Dreams of the Sphinx > 1 Giant's Blood > 4 Minion Tap You could use Fortitude Skill cards for Giotto. He works much better at FOR. Also, you might consider some Stranger Among Us to ensure a Blanche Hill. > > Action (29 cards) > 5 Clan Impersonation (Maybe just pay for the Scarce-cost?) Ditch these. > 7 Concordance (too many? I really want them..) These probably aren't too many. Giotto's special is ideal for the deck that puts in lots of one card that you only need to play once. > 4 Condemnation: Doomed (too many?) Yup. Every Baali action is sacred, so you need to ask yourself if each action is Better than Bleeding (BtB). I say ditch at least 2. > 3 Contagion (mostly fun, too many?) Ditch at least 2. > 7 Renewed Vigor > 3 Sanguine Instruction Ditch all SI's. You are missing two crucial action cards: Force of Will and Masochism. Six of each is in the ballpark. Force of Will allows you to obviate the Infernal cost. Masochism turns that damage from Force of Will and Daring the Dawn into cost payment for future Forces of Will, Freak Drives, Skins of Steel, or Kisses of Ra. > > Action Modifier (29 cards) > 6 Cloak the Gathering > 10 Daring the Dawn Might be able to cut 1 or 2 Daring the Dawns. I've found that people give up blocking Giotto after awhile, since they have to pay one blood just to try. You might consider ditching some stealth. You might also consider adding one Kiss of Ra. Just seeing it in your ash heap will make people reconsider blocking you. > 4 Freak Drive More of these. > 2 Lost in Crowds > 3 Psychomachia (out probably...) > 4 Repulsion (also playable by Giotto) Again, an advantage of teh Suhailah/5th tradition module is that all of your stealth can come from the same discipline. > > Combat (8 cards) > 3 Conflagration (just for fun and surprise) Ditch at least 1. > 5 Skin of Steel Might consider adding some damage prevention that doesn't cost blood, like Unflinching Persisance or Rolling with the Punches. Then again, if you can get Masochism going, Skin of Steel is just fine. > > Retainer (3 cards) > 3 D'habi Revenant (not unique) I don't think I'd go with more than 2. I know you can stack them, but you also have to take an action to put them on. > > Combo (10 cards) > 10 Sense the Sin (versatile) It is versatile, but you might want to shave off 1 or 2. It's annoying how that card can multiply in your hand. Are you sure you don't want to play with any Wakes? Even two is better than nothing. > > > > Ok, let me know what you think, I'm glad other people out there are thinking about this kind of deck! Maybe we can get it into a workable version. Wide-eyed optimism for the Baali, dancingmummy > > Wouter

I needed a little time to understand the combo, which is quite good. My point would be : why the two Salubri. You should try your deck with both Sethite sand Khobar towers. Small Sethites may use your concordances, play obfuscate and allow you to put Khobar towers. For combat, Giotto has access to the powerfull disarm, which is very efficient combined with fortitude. Anarch revolt will fasten the game, thus preventing opponets from finding solution (say bloating). There is a whole bunch of master cards which have to flow nicely if you want to stand a chance. This game as a taste of bleed stealth, and this is voluntary. A bounce hevy deck will of course be your nemesis. The deck is short, as game should be short too. Game shouldn't be allowed to last more than 9 turns. Here is a very fragile version of the deck, that could however give bad surprises to many uncautious opponents. What is sure is that if you play this deck, things won't last more than half an hour for you. This deck dies to many things, but can be a efficient bleeder. In case of a stelth blead race, canibalizing your vampires to the Khobar Towers might givve you the afvantage. With Giotto for 4-5 (Base bleed + Sense the Sin + Action card or not) and a Sthite concording for 1, and one anrch revolt, you should rip 6-7 pool out of your prey every turn. So yes, you'll have to pay one as Giotto is infernal, but has you ssee it's not a major concern. Perhaps cards like life boon or major boon could be efficient in such a deck ? Sure bleed defense is not its focus point but hey, the same holds true to a weenie presence horde. And at least you may bloat a little. Of course this deck has to be tested but can perhaps proove violent. The deck is 63 cards, though it should be optimised to 60 ASAP Combat 6 Skin of steel * 3 Putrefaction * 1 Disarm * 2 (to slow bruise&something decks, or mono vampire Theo or Best rushers, or cross table rushers that my think twice of rushing you if one of their guys gets his ass properly kicked) Action 15 Concordance * 7 Contagion * 2 (with freak drive, a free additional AR is a must) Entrancement * 2 (for allies ... or increased bleed) Legal Manipulation * 4 Action modifier 20 Daring the dawn * 7 Freak Drive * 4 (apart from bleeding you shuld play conatgion, sup Entrancement, conccordance) Sense the sin * 7 (yes, bleed is part of the deck) Lost in crowds * 1 (easy to cycle) Cloak the gathering * 1 Reaction * 2 Delaying tactics * 2 (hould help the ARs to last at least a little) Master * 20 Parthenon * 4 Khobar Towers * 3 (you don't need it on first turn) Anarch Revolt * 6 Info Highway * 3 Secure Haven * 1 (Legends say that sometimes infamous people rush) Dreams of the sphinx * 1 The Coven * 1 Succubus club * 1 ( Succubus club + Khobar towers combo can be very efficient) Crypt 1 Lalitha 1 Celine Chevalier 1 Khalil Anvari 1 Antoinette Duchamp 2 Nepatha 6 Giotto Verducci Emmanuel Martin

> > Wouter Kuyper wrote... > > Hi Guys, > > Another deck, based on daring the dawn, this time with Concordance... > I think it could use more prevention, and tel-misdirection maybe....what to do? I don't usually comment on decks because I still have so much to learn about this game, so take all my thoughts with a grain of salt... But I'll give it a try since I have a few ideas you might like (who knows?). > Deck Name: Giotto and friends > Created By: wk > Description: Concordance + daring_the_dawn, renewed vigor to fill up. > Clan imp to avoid scarce-cost and possible sanguine instruction. > pool gain is doll (with Blanche) and minion_tap + renewed_vigor. > No or very little blocking, dies to stealth-bleed, dies to rush > > Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 25, Max: 28, Avg: 6.75) > ---------------------------------------------- > 6 Giotto Verducci DAI for OBF pot pre 7, Baali (maybe 5?) > 3 Matthias AUS FOR nec OBE 7, Salubri (could add one for telmisdirect) > 3 Blanche Hill aus FOR OBE 6, Salubri You could take one from each of these ( 5 Goitto Verducci, 2 Matthias, 2 Blanch Hill) and add Basil, Normal, and Dimple. Then put in a few Kiss of Ra and use the little stealth minions to diablirize any of your prey's minions that are giving you fits. If you add a few skill masters (fortitude?), the smaller minons will become even more useful (if they make it into your ready region). This crypt looks limiting since you might only get 2 minions out. I like to have more options than that. > Library: (90 cards) > ------------------- > Master (11 cards) You can probably get away with a few more masters > 5 Blood Doll How about 6 or 7 blood dolls, so you can take blood off AND put it back on in a pinch. That way you can dump the Minion Taps and you'll have even more room for other masters. Or you can go with 2 Blood Dolls and 6 Minion Taps (if you're sure that you'll be able to get the Renewed Vigors through BTW - I like the idea of using Suhallia and 5th traditions instead... or maybe use Nikolaus Vermeulen and Selma The Repugnant so you can do more with Fortitude, Potence, or the other Traditions... and then you would be able justify including Mary The Black since she has Potence... or even Murat combined with the High Priest Angra Mainyu for surpentis options - of course these are totally different decks, but they are still fun to talk about). > 1 Dreams of the Sphinx One more? > 1 Giant's Blood > 4 Minion Tap Either dump all of these some of the Blood Dolls for Sudden Reversals (2 or 3?) and some masters that will give you blood consistently (a Powerbase or evensomething like Blood Puppy) > Action (29 cards) > 5 Clan Impersonation (Maybe just pay for the Scarce-cost?) Does that work? Is it worth it? I can't really comment on this because I haven't used it, but something seems wrong here. It looks like this would make it too easy to avoid their handicap... and gain a hunting ground... or votes... or whatever... Anyone?? > 7 Concordance (too many? I really want them..) Great card, but maybe only 5? Seven seems like a slight overkill to me even though it's pretty important for this deck. > 4 Condemnation: Doomed (too many?)] Excellent card if you can intercept and block consistently. (more?) > 3 Contagion (mostly fun, too many?) This might cause the table to single your minions out for immediate destruction. Keep them if you're meta game doesn't see a lot of rush combat decks, but I would probably stick to only one or two (held in reserve until near the end of the game? They will attack you anyway when it's down to 2 or 3 players, right?). > 7 Renewed Vigor > 3 Sanguine Instruction What are you teaching and why? Stealth for Matthias and Blanch? This could be accomplished with skill masters if you have the master slots for them and really need to focus your actions else where (only two minons?). However, it might be fine if you have a lot of Freak Drives and can untap with Concordiance. > Action Modifier (29 cards) > 6 Cloak the Gathering Maybe some more diversity in your stealth so you can play one on top of the other? I'd be tempted to add a few Lost in Crowds, Faceless Night, Elder Impersonation, etc. and some Obfuscate skill cards or more Sanguine Instructions. (I'm playing in an environment that has a LOT of intercept and combat, but this may not apply to your situation as much) > 10 Daring the Dawn Wow. Daywalkers... :o) > 4 Freak Drive 6 Freak Drives? (if you're only going to have 2 minions out) > 2 Lost in Crowds I'd go with 4 of these. > 3 Psychomachia (out probably...) You already have stealth and you actually want them to block you most of the time... but I'd also be tempted to leave a couple in there just in case (predator). However, I would also hate to get this in my hand at the wrong time instead of a Daring the Dawn - Skin of Steel combo. You'll probably have to play it a few times to see how it works for you. > 4 Repulsion (also playable by Giotto) If these are blocked, then Matthias might end up in torpor. Suhalia or the Nosferatu are looking even better... > Combat (8 cards) > 3 Conflagration (just for fun and surprise) More? > 5 Skin of Steel I think that I would go with a larger variety of fortitude... or at least a couple more Skin of Steel. I hate the idea of having a Daring the Dawn backfire on me. There is a lot of fortitude floating around out there nowadays: they block, prevent your damage, press... or manuever to distance and hit you with weapons, use quietus, or steal blood/walk of flame....) > Retainer (3 cards) > 3 D'habi Revenant (not unique) Only if you can afford the actions. Putting in 1 Taha Morgan and 1 T.S. Esquire gives you some more versatility if you're not worried about contesting. Matthias with an increased bleed and a Kiss or Ra threat could be nice. > Combo (10 cards) > 10 Sense the Sin (versatile) Great card, but only if you plan to block a lot. It goes well with Comdemnation: Doomed, but it doesn't fit in as well with your Dawn Operations. How are you going to cause serious damage after you block? Why didn't you add any tel-misdirection that you mentioned above? That seems like a good idea to me. You're a little weak without the Daring the Dawn and your predator might really hurt you with rush combat, stealth bleed, or whatever. How do you handle votes? I may have missed something, but it seems like there might be some holes that need to be filled. I'd also try to find a way to increase your bloat to offset the Baali's inherent weakness. Maybe another minon with a Palacial Estate and a blood doll? Or some Taste of Vitae with increased damage (potence?)... or something. It seems like your predator/prey could just watch you slowly waste away while causing you fits here and there. > Ok, let me know what you think, > > Wouter It looks like a fun deck to play and I'd like to hear how it works for you (with whatever changes you do or don't make). I'm looking forward to finding a really good use for the Baali. Good Luck! Cheers, Howard PS I hope these comments were somewhat interesting or helpful. I don't usually do this and I'm not sure if I've done a very good job. Check everything I've said with someone else and ingnore anything that sounds wrong or incomplete.

> > Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 25, Max: 28, Avg: 6.75) > > ---------------------------------------------- > > 6 Giotto Verducci DAI for OBF pot pre 7, Baali (maybe 5?) > > 3 Matthias AUS FOR nec OBE 7, Salubri (could add one for telmisdirect) > > I would say ditch Matthias. Your not using AUS or nec, and you said > you don't block much. > > Another way of doing this deck entirely would be to scrap the Salubri > and go with Giotto, Suhailah, and 5th Tradition. They have great > discipline overlap (no more Repulsion--they both have OBF!), and once > Giotto dons his DAI Concordance, Suhailah can use others you have > sitting in your hand if you have massive intra-minion-phase hand jam > (IMPHJ). I will look into this, might indeed be better... [ quoted text not captured ] done > You are missing two crucial action cards: Force of Will and Masochism. > Six of each is in the ballpark. Force of Will allows you to obviate > the Infernal cost. Masochism turns that damage from Force of Will and > Daring the Dawn into cost payment for future Forces of Will, Freak > Drives, Skins of Steel, or Kisses of Ra. Masochism....never thought of that....good plan ! will incorporate that > > > > Action Modifier (29 cards) > > 6 Cloak the Gathering > > 10 Daring the Dawn > > Might be able to cut 1 or 2 Daring the Dawns. I've found that people > give up blocking Giotto after awhile, since they have to pay one blood > just to try. You might consider ditching some stealth. You might > also consider adding one Kiss of Ra. Just seeing it in your ash heap > will make people reconsider blocking you. > > > 4 Freak Drive > > More of these. > > > 2 Lost in Crowds > > 3 Psychomachia (out probably...) > > 4 Repulsion (also playable by Giotto) > > Again, an advantage of teh Suhailah/5th tradition module is that all > of your stealth can come from the same discipline. true, but Giotto can also play Repulsion, and everythung at stealth is great... > > > > > Combat (8 cards) > > 3 Conflagration (just for fun and surprise) > > Ditch at least 1. > > > 5 Skin of Steel > > Might consider adding some damage prevention that doesn't cost blood, > like Unflinching Persisance or Rolling with the Punches. Then again, > if you can get Masochism going, Skin of Steel is just fine. > done > > > > Retainer (3 cards) > > 3 D'habi Revenant (not unique) > > I don't think I'd go with more than 2. I know you can stack them, but > you also have to take an action to put them on. > > > > > Combo (10 cards) > > 10 Sense the Sin (versatile) > > It is versatile, but you might want to shave off 1 or 2. It's > annoying how that card can multiply in your hand. Before you wrote this, i already tweaked it a little myself: what i changed mostly was including some redirect, and some more prevent...now i can dare to block, with some intercept....as you see i came to some same conclusions as you did...Masochism should be great though...and probably Suhaila is better... Deck Name: Giotto and friends Created By: wk Description: Concordance + daring_the_dawn, renewed vigor to fill up. Clan imp to avoid scarce-cost. pool gain is doll and minion_tap + renewed_vigor. Very little blocking, dies to stealth-bleed, troubles with rush Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 24, Max: 28, Avg: 6.67) ---------------------------------------------- 5 Giotto Verducci DAI for OBF pot pre 7, Baali 3 Matthias AUS FOR nec OBE 7, Salubri 4 Blanche Hill aus FOR OBE 6, Salubri Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (12 cards) 5 Blood Doll 1 Direct Intervention 1 Dreams of the Sphinx 1 Giant's Blood 4 Minion Tap Action (25 cards) 3 Clan Impersonation 7 Concordance 3 Condemnation: Doomed 2 Contagion (works with sense the sin) 3 Force of Will 7 Renewed Vigor Action Modifier (26 cards) 6 Cloak the Gathering 10 Daring the Dawn 4 Freak Drive 2 Lost in Crowds 4 Repulsion Reaction (5 cards) 5 Telepathic Misdirection Combat (12 cards) 3 Conflagration 4 Skin of Rock 5 Skin of Steel Retainer (2 cards) 2 D'habi Revenant Combo (8 cards) 8 Sense the Sin

On 17 Jun 2002 21:25:54 -0700, hdma...@hotmail.com (HD) wrote: >> Action (29 cards) >> 5 Clan Impersonation (Maybe just pay for the Scarce-cost?) >Does that work? Yes. If Matthias becomes a Baali (or any other clan), then you don't have any scarce Salubri in play when you bring out Blanche and you save three pool. > Is it worth it? Yes. >> 7 Renewed Vigor >> 3 Sanguine Instruction >What are you teaching and why? Obeah and Daimoinon. Whichever is appropriate. Until all the vampires can play all of the cards, the deck is extremely fragile. >You already have stealth and you actually want them to block you most >of the time... but I'd also be tempted to leave a couple in there >just in case (predator). However, I would also hate to get this in my >hand at the wrong time instead of a Daring the Dawn - Skin of Steel >combo. You'll probably have to play it a few times to see how it >works for you. Daring the Dawn - Skin of Steel is not a combo, the two cards do not and cannot interact in any way. The combo is Concordance - Daring the Dawn, treating all aggravated damage as normal damage allows Giotto's actions to be unblockable except to allies. >> 4 Repulsion (also playable by Giotto) >If these are blocked, then Matthias might end up in torpor. Suhalia >or the Nosferatu are looking even better... Repulsion is not an action, you play it as an action modifier on some other action to permanently gain +1 stealth. >Great card, but only if you plan to block a lot. It goes well with >Comdemnation: Doomed, but it doesn't fit in as well with your Dawn >Operations. How are you going to cause serious damage after you >block? There aren't any Dawn Operations in the deck. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

hdma...@hotmail.com (HD) wrote in message news:<c0922a66.0206...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] just a quick rule thing, yeah it works, just not sure if it is worth it (don't think so) > > 7 Concordance (too many? I really want them..) > > Great card, but maybe only 5? Seven seems like a slight overkill to > me even though it's pretty important for this deck. > i don't want to be paying pool for Giotto... > > > 4 Condemnation: Doomed (too many?)] > > Excellent card if you can intercept and block consistently. (more?) > > > > 3 Contagion (mostly fun, too many?) > > This might cause the table to single your minions out for immediate > destruction. Keep them if you're meta game doesn't see a lot of rush > combat decks, but I would probably stick to only one or two (held in > reserve until near the end of the game? They will attack you anyway > when it's down to 2 or 3 players, right?). > > > > 7 Renewed Vigor > > 3 Sanguine Instruction > > What are you teaching and why? Stealth for Matthias and Blanch? This > could be accomplished with skill masters if you have the master slots > for them and really need to focus your actions else where (only two > minons?). However, it might be fine if you have a lot of Freak Drives > and can untap with Concordiance. > I thought to be teaching Daimonion, but most cards need infernals...so out... > > Action Modifier (29 cards) > > 6 Cloak the Gathering > > Maybe some more diversity in your stealth so you can play one on top > of the other? I'd be tempted to add a few Lost in Crowds, Faceless > Night, Elder Impersonation, etc. and some Obfuscate skill cards or > more Sanguine Instructions. (I'm playing in an environment that has a > LOT of intercept and combat, but this may not apply to your situation > as much) > > > > 10 Daring the Dawn > > Wow. Daywalkers... :o) > > > > 4 Freak Drive > > 6 Freak Drives? (if you're only going to have 2 minions out) > > > > 2 Lost in Crowds > > I'd go with 4 of these. > > > > 3 Psychomachia (out probably...) > > You already have stealth and you actually want them to block you most > of the time... but I'd also be tempted to leave a couple in there > just in case (predator). However, I would also hate to get this in my > hand at the wrong time instead of a Daring the Dawn - Skin of Steel > combo. You'll probably have to play it a few times to see how it > works for you. I think you confuse daring the dawn with dawn operation....daring the dawn makes your vamp only be blockable by allies, and the aggro-damage you get cannot be hepled with skin of steel...that is why i NEED concordance, then i just get regular damage... > > > > 4 Repulsion (also playable by Giotto) > > If these are blocked, then Matthias might end up in torpor. Suhalia > or the Nosferatu are looking even better... Repulsion cannot be blocked...it is an action modifier... > > > > Combat (8 cards) > > 3 Conflagration (just for fun and surprise) > > More? > > > > 5 Skin of Steel > > I think that I would go with a larger variety of fortitude... or at > least a couple more Skin of Steel. I hate the idea of having a Daring > the Dawn backfire on me. There is a lot of fortitude floating around > out there nowadays: they block, prevent your damage, press... or > manuever to distance and hit you with weapons, use quietus, or steal > blood/walk of flame....) > you are right > > > Retainer (3 cards) > > 3 D'habi Revenant (not unique) > > Only if you can afford the actions. Putting in 1 Taha Morgan and 1 > T.S. Esquire gives you some more versatility if you're not worried > about contesting. Matthias with an increased bleed and a Kiss or Ra > threat could be nice. > I think the revenants are nicer... > > > Combo (10 cards) > > 10 Sense the Sin (versatile) > > Great card, but only if you plan to block a lot. It goes well with > Comdemnation: Doomed, but it doesn't fit in as well with your Dawn > Operations. How are you going to cause serious damage after you > block? superior daimonion gives +2 bleed, that is why there are som many... > > > Why didn't you add any tel-misdirection that you mentioned above? > That seems like a good idea to me. You're a little weak without the > Daring the Dawn and your predator might really hurt you with rush > combat, stealth bleed, or whatever. How do you handle votes? I may > have missed something, but it seems like there might be some holes > that need to be filled. > > I'd also try to find a way to increase your bloat to offset the > Baali's inherent weakness. Maybe another minon with a Palacial Estate > and a blood doll? Or some Taste of Vitae with increased damage > (potence?)... or something. It seems like your predator/prey could > just watch you slowly waste away while causing you fits here and > there. > > > > Ok, let me know what you think, > > > > Wouter > > > It looks like a fun deck to play and I'd like to hear how it works for > you (with whatever changes you do or don't make). I'm looking forward > to finding a really good use for the Baali. Good Luck! > > Cheers, > Howard > > PS I hope these comments were somewhat interesting or helpful. I > don't usually do this and I'm not sure if I've done a very good job. Everything helps, thx

e...@boursorama.com (Emmanuel Martin) wrote in message news:<10c2c156.02061...@posting.google.com>... > I needed a little time to understand the combo, which is quite good. thx :-) > My point would be : why the two Salubri. well, my idea was that Giotto will lose blood fast, 5th tradition or renewed vogor would do that (and i like them both :-) ) You should try your deck with > both Sethite sand Khobar towers. > > Small Sethites may use your concordances, play obfuscate and allow you > to put Khobar towers. i might...but why? yes they can use concordance, which lets them bleed for 1; any vamp can do that...and they most probably won't Jam with Giotto's discard special... Khobar Towers is good...i need pool gain, but i think tradition-tap, or vigor-tap is better... For combat, Giotto has access to the powerfull > disarm, which is very efficient combined with fortitude. might consider that, that's fun... > > Anarch revolt will fasten the game, thus preventing opponets from > finding solution (say bloating). There is a whole bunch of master > cards which have to flow nicely if you want to stand a chance. True it will speed the game up...might be worth it, but it makes me a target as well....will consider it > > This game as a taste of bleed stealth, and this is voluntary. A bounce > hevy deck will of course be your nemesis. yep, i will loose to that....nothing to do about that i guess, with this deck... The deck is short, as game > should be short too. Game shouldn't be allowed to last more than 9 > turns. > > Here is a very fragile version of the deck, that could however give > bad surprises to many uncautious opponents. What is sure is that if > you play this deck, things won't last more than half an hour for you. > > This deck dies to many things, but can be a efficient bleeder. In case > of a stelth blead race, canibalizing your vampires to the Khobar > Towers might givve you the afvantage. > > With Giotto for 4-5 (Base bleed + Sense the Sin + Action card or not) > and a Sthite concording for 1, and one anrch revolt, you should rip > 6-7 pool out of your prey every turn. So yes, you'll have to pay one > as Giotto is infernal, but has you ssee it's not a major concern. > > Perhaps cards like life boon or major boon could be efficient in such > a deck ? Sure bleed defense is not its focus point but hey, the same > holds true to a weenie presence horde. And at least you may bloat a > little. Of course this deck has to be tested but can perhaps proove > violent. > > The deck is 63 cards, though it should be optimised to 60 ASAP > > > Combat 6 > Skin of steel * 3 > Putrefaction * 1 what does that do in here??? > Disarm * 2 > (to slow bruise&something decks, or mono vampire Theo or Best rushers, > or cross table rushers that my think twice of rushing you if one of > their guys gets his ass properly kicked) > > Action 15 > Concordance * 7 > Contagion * 2 (with freak drive, a free additional AR is a > must) > Entrancement * 2 (for allies ... or increased bleed) > Legal Manipulation * 4 Might be good indeed > > > Action modifier 20 > Daring the dawn * 7 > Freak Drive * 4 (apart from bleeding you shuld play > conatgion, sup Entrancement, conccordance) > Sense the sin * 7 (yes, bleed is part of the deck) > Lost in crowds * 1 (easy to cycle) > Cloak the gathering * 1 > > Reaction * 2 > > Delaying tactics * 2 (hould help the ARs to last at least a little) > > Master * 20 > > Parthenon * 4 > Khobar Towers * 3 (you don't need it on first turn) > Anarch Revolt * 6 > Info Highway * 3 > Secure Haven * 1 (Legends say that sometimes infamous people > rush) > Dreams of the sphinx * 1 > The Coven * 1 > Succubus club * 1 ( Succubus club > + Khobar towers combo can be very efficient) never thought of that...fun... [ quoted text not captured ]

"Another way of doing this deck entirely would be to scrap the Salubri and go with Giotto, Suhailah, and 5th Tradition. They have great discipline overlap (no more Repulsion--they both have OBF!), and once Giotto dons his DAI Concordance, Suhailah can use others you have sitting in your hand if you have massive intra-minion-phase hand jam(IMPHJ)." "BTW - I like the idea of using Suhallia and 5th traditions instead... or maybe use Nikolaus Vermeulen and Selma The Repugnant so you can do more with Fortitude, Potence, or the other Traditions... and then you would be able justify including Mary The Black since she has Potence... or even Murat combined with the High Priest Angra Mainyu for surpentis options - of course these are totally different decks, but they are still fun to talk about)." Some ideas included in here: Deck Name: Giotto, Sheldon and Suhailah Created By: wk Description: Concordance + daring_the_dawn, 5th to fill up. pool gain is minion_tap + 5th. Very little blocking, dies to stealth-bleed?, troubles with rush (other possibillity: Queen Anne) Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 28, Max: 36, Avg: 7.83) ---------------------------------------------- 5 Giotto Verducci DAI for OBF pot pre 7, Baali still the idea of the deck 2 Suhailah FOR OBF pot ser 9, Ventrue, Prince 3 Sheldon ANI AUS for OBF POT 9, Nosferatu, Justicar 2 Nikolaus Vermeulen ani for obf POT 7, Nosferatu, Prince all can play 5th at stealth (or in the dawn), all can play conflagration, Sheldon can play Sense of the sin (all have for and obf)Suhailah can concordance Should just Suhailah be better? i think not..Is Nikolaus worth including? that will speed up bringing out Sheldon or usefull for poolgain, not sure I have thought about Queen Anne as well, with a deck consisting of her and Giotto i could use more presence and deflection... Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (13 cards) 1 Direct Intervention 1 Dreams of the Sphinx 2 Fortitude 1 Giant's Blood 8 Minion Tap (for bloat) Action (27 cards) 6 Concordance 2 Condemnation: Doomed (fun) 1 Contagion (for fun and helps with sense) 8 Fifth Tradition: Hospitality, The 5 Force of Will 5 Masochism (works great with the damage received from daring the dawn and force of will) Action Modifier (28 cards) 6 Cloak the Gathering 8 Daring the Dawn 3 Elder Impersonation 2 Faceless Night 6 Freak Drive 3 Lost in Crowds Combat (12 cards) 2 Conflagration 5 Skin of Rock 5 Skin of Steel Retainer (2 cards) 2 D'habi Revenant Combo (8 cards) 8 Sense the Sin Let me know what you think...i cannot deflect or something like that...i can survive some combat, not too much, i will die if my prey plays lots of deflection, i can bloat a little, and should be bleeding for 3/4 unblockable, so i might be quite fast... Let me know what you think :-) Wouter

> > The Lasombra wrote: > > > >HD wrote: > > > >> Action (29 cards) > >> 5 Clan Impersonation (Maybe just pay for the Scarce-cost?) > > >Does that work? > > Yes. > If Matthias becomes a Baali (or any other clan), then you don't have > any scarce Salubri in play when you bring out Blanche and you save > three pool. > > > Is it worth it? > > Yes. What if the Baali use a clan impersonation? Do they lose their blood cost handicap if they are another clan? > >> 7 Renewed Vigor > >> 3 Sanguine Instruction > > >What are you teaching and why? > > Obeah and Daimoinon. I wasn't sure which one he was focusing on. I was basically wondering if he was trying to gain the ability to use stealth so the Renewed Vigors would be more likely to be successful. Apparently it's a bit more complicated than that. (see below) > Whichever is appropriate. Until all the vampires can play all of the > cards, the deck is extremely fragile. > > >You already have stealth and you actually want them to block you most > >of the time... but I'd also be tempted to leave a couple in there > >just in case (predator). However, I would also hate to get this in my > >hand at the wrong time instead of a Daring the Dawn - Skin of Steel > >combo. You'll probably have to play it a few times to see how it > >works for you. > > Daring the Dawn - Skin of Steel is not a combo, the two cards do not > and cannot interact in any way. At some point, I confused Daring the Dawn with Dawn Operation and totally missed one of the main themes of the deck (unblockable actions - no stealth needed). I was thinking he was trying to use Dawn Operation followed with a Skin of Steel after being blocked. (but that made me wonder how he was going to cause significant damage in combat) Sorry for the error... please disregard all comments... > The combo is Concordance - Daring the Dawn, treating all aggravated > damage as normal damage allows Giotto's actions to be unblockable > except to allies. Ok, that makes much more sense than Dawn Operation (for this deck). But does that mean it would only take one or two decent allies to shut down the deck? > >> 4 Repulsion (also playable by Giotto) > > >If these are blocked, then Matthias might end up in torpor. Suhalia > >or the Nosferatu are looking even better... > > Repulsion is not an action, you play it as an action modifier on some > other action to permanently gain +1 stealth. I thought that Repulsion was either +1 stealth (inf) or a directed action to gain permanent +1 stealth (sup). I'll have to look at the card again. > >Great card, but only if you plan to block a lot. It goes well with > >Comdemnation: Doomed, but it doesn't fit in as well with your Dawn > >Operations. How are you going to cause serious damage after you > >block? > > There aren't any Dawn Operations in the deck. Uh, yeah... My mistake. I need to quit typing messages in the early hours of the morning after a sleepless night. And maybe I should hold back on commenting on decks until I know all the cards... > Carpe noctem. > > Lasombra > > http://www.TheLasombra.com Thanks for catching the mistakes, Howard

HD wrote: > What if the Baali use a clan impersonation? Do they lose their blood > cost handicap if they are another clan? No. Card text: "infernal". -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> HD wrote: > > What if the Baali use a clan impersonation? Do they lose their blood > > cost handicap if they are another clan? > > No. Card text: "infernal". Ive seen you comment on this before, but ive never seen an explanation. Both "Infernal" and "Scarce" are are "Card text" and placed after a vampires special abilities. This is what i found at the online rule book: Bloodlines When a Methuselah moves a vampire marked Scarce from her uncontrolled region to the ready region, she burns 3 pool for every other vampire in play of the same clan. BL-3.7 Bloodlines An infernal minion is handled similarly to contesting. The cost for the infernal minion is one pool, which you pay during each of your untap phases. Instead of paying the pool for an infernal minion, you may choose to tap the minion. BL-3.6 I cant see why Clan Impersonation should prevent the Scarce cost (since CI only changes the clan) if it doesnt prevent the "Infernal" cost. -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Nikolaj Wendt wrote: > I cant see why Clan Impersonation should prevent the Scarce cost (since > CI only changes the clan) if it doesnt prevent the "Infernal" cost. A CI'ed scarce vampire is still scarce. He just happens to be of a different clan (which helps when bring out other scarce vampires). If you bring out a scarce Salubri and CI him to be a Brujah, then you have a scarce Brujah. If you bring out another scarce Salubri, you pay 3 pool for every other *Salubri* in play. The scarce Brujah is not Salubri, so won't increase your penalty. [ quoted text not captured ]

Wouter Kuyper wrote (snip) Wow. You totally changed your deck. It's cool to see the evolution of a deck concept... > Deck Name: Giotto, Sheldon and Suhailah > Created By: wk > Description: Concordance + daring_the_dawn, 5th to fill up. > pool gain is minion_tap + 5th. > Very little blocking, dies to stealth-bleed?, troubles with rush > (other possibillity: Queen Anne) > > Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 28, Max: 36, Avg: 7.83) > ---------------------------------------------- > 5 Giotto Verducci DAI for OBF pot pre 7, Baali > > still the idea of the deck > > 2 Suhailah FOR OBF pot ser 9, Ventrue, Prince > 3 Sheldon ANI AUS for OBF POT 9, Nosferatu, Justicar > 2 Nikolaus Vermeulen ani for obf POT 7, Nosferatu, Prince > > all can play 5th at stealth (or in the dawn), all can play > conflagration, Sheldon can play Sense of the sin (all have for and > obf)Suhailah can concordance Seems like a fairly good choice of minions with some good overlap in their skills. > Should just Suhailah be better? i think not.. I think it's better to have a few more options, so adding Sheldon and Nikolaus is a good idea. With this crypt it is fairly likely that you will get at least three minons out, and possibly four. I think that's much better. But if you only had Suahilah and Giotto, then you would only have two minions. That seems far too too limiting for this deck. Where is Mary the Black? She has most of the skills you're using and a good special... especially if you decide to throw in some Potence. > Is Nikolaus worth including? Including Nikolaus isn't a bad idea... (potence cards?) that will speed up bringing out Sheldon or usefull for > poolgain, not sure Huh? What is Nikolaus' special? > I have thought about Queen Anne as well, with a deck consisting of her > and Giotto i could use more presence and deflection... That may make your deck too unfocused. You'll have to choose between the differnt skills at some point. But then again, it may also give you more options that work well for you. Try it out and see how it works. > Library: (90 cards) > ------------------- > Master (13 cards) > 1 Direct Intervention > 1 Dreams of the Sphinx > 2 Fortitude > 1 Giant's Blood > 8 Minion Tap (for bloat) 8 Minion Taps seems a bit excessive. I like to use 5 or 6 Minion Taps. (and if I have a hunting ground or a Platial Estate, then I usually have at least 1 Blood Doll) One or two Sudden Reversals could be helpful > Action (27 cards) > 6 Concordance > 2 Condemnation: Doomed (fun) > 1 Contagion (for fun and helps with sense) > 8 Fifth Tradition: Hospitality, The Ok, I see why you have 8 Minion Taps. This might be a little excessive, but give it a try and see how it works. If you decide to put in some other cards, then this is a place where you could trim down a bit. Maybe 5 or 6 of them. You could also lose the Giant's Blood if you're going to use this many 5th traditions. Then you could use that master slot for something else. > 5 Force of Will > 5 Masochism (works great with the damage received from daring the > dawn and force of will) How does this card work? I'm not very familiar with it. > Action Modifier (28 cards) > 6 Cloak the Gathering > 8 Daring the Dawn You could probably get away with only 5 or 6 of these. You already have stealth. Have you considered Dawn Operation? ...and since your minons will be immune to aggravated damage, a good aggravated potence strike could cause some serious damage. > 3 Elder Impersonation Use Hidden Labyrinth instead (if they are for the 5th Traditions) > 2 Faceless Night > 6 Freak Drive 4 might be enough (I usually only use 2 in fortitude decks) > 3 Lost in Crowds 4 Lost in Crowds? I love getting +2 stealth with one card. > Combat (12 cards) > 2 Conflagration Only 2? I think one or two more would be a good idea. Aren't you still going to use Sanguine Instruction? How are the Princes going to prevent the aggravated damage from Daring the Dawn... Skin of Rock/Steel? > 5 Skin of Rock > 5 Skin of Steel > > Retainer (2 cards) > 2 D'habi Revenant > > Combo (8 cards) > 8 Sense the Sin > You could add some 2nd Traditions to block bleeds and give your prey fits when you block her actions (works well with Condemnation: Doomed). Maybe 5? ...or more? ...depending on how much room you have and the focus of the deck. There is also a bit of potence in your crypt. You could put in some Torn Signposts... or if you don't want to fight hand to hand, then some Thrown Gate could help. If so, drop one or two of the Fortitude skill cards, trim back on the Fortitude a little and add Potence masters and a few Potence cards. Just something to consider... > Let me know what you think...i cannot deflect With all your bloating, you may not need to deflect (even though deflecting is a very useful offensive/defensive technique, it's not always necessary) BTW - I wonder if you could put in some praxis seizures to make Giotto a prince? (I don't know the ruling on that) If the Baali can use praxis seizures, then you could add Mary the Black and Angra Mainyu, make them all princes, and use their stealth to add to your 5th tradition bloat... it might work... or something like > that...i can survive some combat, not too much, i will die if my prey > plays lots of deflection, i can bloat a little, and should be bleeding > for 3/4 unblockable, so i might be quite fast... > > Let me know what you think > > :-) > > Wouter Looks like you're having fun changing it around. You Might want to play with some other options to cover you back (bleeds, combat, votes, ect.) You're already in a better positiion for dealing with many of these potential problems. I think it's looking much better (IMHO). Cheers, Howard PS If anyone disagrees with something I've said or finds a mistake, then please feel free to point it out and correct the error. Thanks.

On 20 Jun 2002 15:55:35 -0700, (HD) asked: >Huh? What is Nikolaus' special? http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/monger/ During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from Nikolaus to any Nosferatu in your Uncontrolled region. >> 5 Force of Will >> 5 Masochism (works great with the damage received from daring the >> dawn and force of will) >How does this card work? I'm not very familiar with it. http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/monger/ Masochism Fortitude +1 stealth action. inf: Put this card on the acting vampire. Whenever damage is successfully inflicted on this vampire, put 1 rush counter on this card for each point of damage. Remove rush counters in excess of the vampire's capacity. Whenever the vampire plays a card, you may remove X rush counters from this card to reduce that card's blood cost by X. SUP: As above, but put an additional rush counter on this card at the end of any round of combat in which this vampire takes damage. > Have you considered Dawn Operation? ...and since your >minons will be immune to aggravated damage, a good aggravated potence >strike could cause some serious damage. They are not "immune to aggravated damage". Concordance allows the Baali to treat the aggravated damage as normal damage. Normal damage will still send the Baali to torpor. >How are the Princes going to >prevent the aggravated damage from Daring the Dawn... Skin of >Rock/Steel? The damage from Daring the Dawn cannot be prevented. >BTW - I wonder if you could put in some praxis seizures to make Giotto >a prince? Independent vampires cannot become princes, nor may they even attempt to call the vote. A Clan Impersonated Giotto, or a Giotto with a Writ of Acceptance could become a prince.

thela...@hotmail.com (The Lasombra) wrote in message news:<3d12665...@text.giganews.com>... > On 20 Jun 2002 15:55:35 -0700, (HD) asked: > > >Huh? What is Nikolaus' special? > > http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/monger/ > > During your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from Nikolaus to any > Nosferatu in your Uncontrolled region. That's pretty useful in the right deck. I may see if I can make a Nossie prince deck (potence, fortitude, a touch of animalism, 2nd traditon, 5th traditon, etc.) ...not a bad combination. > >> 5 Force of Will > >> 5 Masochism (works great with the damage received from daring the > >> dawn and force of will) > > >How does this card work? I'm not very familiar with it. > > http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/monger/ > > Masochism > Fortitude > +1 stealth action. > inf: Put this card on the acting vampire. Whenever damage is > successfully inflicted on this vampire, put 1 rush counter on this > card for each point of damage. Remove rush counters in excess of the > vampire's capacity. Whenever the vampire plays a card, you may remove > X rush counters from this card to reduce that card's blood cost by X. > SUP: As above, but put an additional rush counter on this card at the > end of any round of combat in which this vampire takes damage. In that case, I'm not so sure this card is all that great for his Giotto deck. Maybe 2 or three of them, but no more than that. Personally, I would skip it altogether. > > Have you considered Dawn Operation? ...and since your > >minons will be immune to aggravated damage, a good aggravated potence > >strike could cause some serious damage. > > They are not "immune to aggravated damage". > Concordance allows the Baali to treat the aggravated damage > as normal damage. Normal damage will still send the Baali to torpor. Oh. Of course not... otherwise it would be too good and the card would be broken (you think?). It's still pretty good though. > >How are the Princes going to > >prevent the aggravated damage from Daring the Dawn... Skin of > >Rock/Steel? > > The damage from Daring the Dawn cannot be prevented. I know that... now... :o) > >BTW - I wonder if you could put in some praxis seizures to make Giotto > >a prince? > > Independent vampires cannot become princes, nor may they even > attempt to call the vote. A Clan Impersonated Giotto, or a Giotto > with a Writ of Acceptance could become a prince. Sounds like too much of a hassle. Too many cards for a result that can be achieved another way (other minions). This is an interesting way to learn. I make comments and others tell me what I've said wrong or something about a card that I didn't know. It's actually kind of cool. Thanks. Cheers, Howard PS Those links are great. I really like Ethans Crypt Monger site.